Open thread: The global economic meltdown debate
posted at 8:46 pm on September 22, 2011 by Allahpundit
9 p.m. ET on Fox News. Things the candidates could be talking about tonight: The impending worldwide recession and resulting bloodletting on Wall Street; attacks on the United States by our terror-master “allies” in Pakistan; the DOJ’s curious reticence about its funny little program to sell machine guns to Mexican drug cartels; and of course the nagging problem of how we’re going to restructure our budget to make it sustainable long-term. Things the candidates will likely end up talking about tonight instead: Who loves Social Security the mostest; whether Rick Perry, driven mad by corporate money, was a bit too anti-cancer; why it might not be a terrible thing if Iran had nuclear weapons (big opportunity for Gary Johnson in his comeback); and of course the inevitable Troy Davis/capital punishment question.
As long as we’ll be focusing on subjects largely unrelated to the economic catastrophe that’s about to befall us, I wouldn’t mind a question for Perry on this:
Texas governor Rick Perry has pointed to job growth in Texas during the current economic downturn as one of his main accomplishments. But in a new report for the Center for Immigration Studies, based on data collected monthly by the Census Bureau, we found that newly arrived immigrants (legal and illegal) have been the primary beneficiaries of this growth between 2007 and 2011, not native-born workers.
We found that of jobs created in Texas since 2007, 81 percent (225,000) were taken by newly arrived foreign workers (legal and illegal). The Census Bureau asks immigrants to say when they came to the United States, so it is easy to look at new arrivals who took jobs. Of newly arrived immigrants who took a job in Texas, the data show that 93 percent were not U.S. citizens. We estimate that about half of newly arrived immigrants who took jobs in Texas since 2007 were illegal immigrants. This means that about 40 percent of all the job growth in Texas between 2007 and 2011 went to newly arrived illegal immigrants and 40 percent went to newly arrived legal immigrants.
What is so surprising about these numbers is that so much of the job growth in the state went to immigrants even though the native-born accounted for 69 percent of the growth in Texas’s working-age population (16 to 65). Put another way, even though natives made up most of the growth in potential workers, most of the job growth went to immigrants. As a result, the employment rate for natives — the share of working-age natives holding a job in the state — declined in a manner very similar to that seen in the rest of the country. This is an indication that the situation for native-born workers in Texas is very similar to that of the nation as a whole, despite the state’s job growth.
Actually, we don’t need a question on that. Romney will bring it up himself at the first mention of Perry’s jobs record. It’s not a devastating critique insofar as jobs created are jobs created, regardless of who’s filling them, but it opens the door for Mitt to press him on what Texas’s jobs picture would look like without those “new arrivals” to stimulate extra demand. If he can convince voters that Perry’s chief credential for the presidency is somehow a function of Texas’s geography, the main pillar holding up his campaign starts to crack. Perry’s goal tonight, meanwhile, is simply to go on offense and make Romney sweat, which somehow no one’s done over the course of five debates. If he’s smart he’ll borrow Philip Klein’s RomneyCare critique and wonder how a candidate who’s infamous for flip-flopping and soft on big-government initiatives like mandates could ever be expected to repeal ObamaCare or reform entitlements if elected. Last night’s Hannity interview offered a glimpse of that — Perry referred to Romney as “Obama lite” — but today his campaign’s circulating a dopey attack mocking the fabulously rich Romney for his blue-collar pretenses. (“Middle Class Mitt!”) If that’s the bazooka in Perry’s arsenal, it’s going to be a long night.
Here’s your Hot Air/Townhall Twitter widget for insta-reactions. While you wait, for a necessary shot of perspective, read this piece on the gathering economic storm by Walter Russell Mead. It is indeed panic time. Exit question: Is Nate Silver right that the media’s already designated Huntsman the “winner” of the debate based on his surprise double-digit showing in the new New Hampshire poll? (Ahead of Rick Perry, do note.) That prefab “Huntsmania!” narrative they’ve been itching to push needs data points, my friends.
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TheRightMan on September 23, 2011 at 12:48 AM
I like Perry. I support Perry. I live in TX.
I think he didn’t do well in this debate and the 2 prior weren’t wonderful either.
annoyinglittletwerp on September 23, 2011 at 12:56 AM
…uh, only 2 republicans have won since Reagan. Not sure what you’re trying to prove. GWHB was VP, did anyone even run against him? And GWB’s closest competition was John McCain, making GWB the “conservative” in the race.
alwaysfiredup on September 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM
I hate Perry. I’ve never supported Perry. I’ve been in Texas my whole life, not just 3 months. Perry has put this state on a path of collapse.
wheelgun on September 23, 2011 at 1:08 AM
Perry is a joke and I have no respect for anyone that supports him. We conservatives get called racist and heartless enough by liberals, and now we are going to elect as our presidential candidate someone who does the same? Well then throw in the damn towel, its over. If he is our nominee we have officially lost on the immigration issue. Every single lib in the country will be running ads against any congressman who support tougher immigration laws saying that he is too extreme for even Gov Perry, the presidential candidate. And EVERY conservative in the country will be asked his position on it by the media to setup the attack ads. Pathetic. Get him off the stage, he is a joke.
thphilli on September 23, 2011 at 1:12 AM
So, according to the brilliance of Petunia, we shouldn’t be concerned about someone passing stupid, fiscally irresponsible laws at the state level because state’s rights says it’s ok to pass stupid, fiscally irresponsible laws at the state level. Gotcha. Do you also believe it makes sense to piss in the wind because, after all, it’s your piss?
Yeah, try again, non-genius. State’s rights doesn’t excuse bad judgement. The argument isn’t that he didn’t have the right to do it. The argument is that he shouldn’t have done it because it is a bad law.
xblade on September 23, 2011 at 1:12 AM
Given the Reagan mandate that states provide health care is it really bad judgment to manage care at the state level. There is a cogent fiscal argument for states getting in front of health care costs and if a state manages to get the highest rates of those insured isn’t that sensible at least for some states? Doesn’t a policy like that mean more people are covered by private plans rather than the state or federal government?
lexhamfox on September 23, 2011 at 1:21 AM
Do you think he would loose a state election? I think his TX negative polling is a big factor in running for President. It’s pretty obvious he was hoping to bob along in TX for a few more years before running, hence the book and all that BS.
lexhamfox on September 23, 2011 at 1:24 AM
So he gets the pass from your but if Palin so much as speaks in with the wrong tone of voice you will scream she’s a quitter who’s unfit for office!!!!EVE11VENTY!!!11!
miConsevative on September 23, 2011 at 1:28 AM
\
I think you should at least be honest about how long you have been in TX and how familiar you are with that state. If you are as I suspect, a late arrival, are you really in a position to compare Perry’s leadership with anyone else? It’s not an attack I just think you should invoke where you live as if you know the state well and know what it was like living other TX governors.
lexhamfox on September 23, 2011 at 1:32 AM
I hate Perry. I’ve never supported Perry. I’ve been in Texas my whole life, not just 3 months. Perry has put this state on a path of collapse.
wheelgun on September 23, 2011 at 1:08 AM
My late father-RIP-used to say that ‘hate’ should be reserved for evil.
I ‘hate’ what the Nazis did to my relatives. I ‘despise’ Ron Paul.
By saying that you ‘hate’ Rick Perry you are saying far more about yourself than you are about him.
Before you say it…no…we’re not going back to Chicago. We’re stayin’ in West Texas. After almost 6 months the native Lubbockites seem to like us being here.
annoyinglittletwerp on September 23, 2011 at 1:33 AM
lexhamfox on September 23, 2011 at 1:32 AM
We’ve been here since April 10th.
Perry is VERY popular in Lubbock County. Only Ron Paul(ick) comes close to having as much support.
annoyinglittletwerp on September 23, 2011 at 1:35 AM
Rick Perry is a damn liar…I hate liars.
wheelgun on September 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM
alwaysfiredup on September 23, 2011 at 12:18 AM
So my saying right here in this thread the minute he uttered it that he shouldn’t have said “no heart” because it’s emotionalism, is blind devotion? Huh. I said it hours ago in the other thread, too.
-Aslan’s Girl
Aslans Girl on September 23, 2011 at 1:38 AM
Palin supporters have been called cultists whether we are or not for months – including by yours truly. Funny to see you whine about it now…
miConsevative on September 23, 2011 at 1:42 AM
miConsevative on September 23, 2011 at 1:42 AM
I’m not whining, I’m just pointing out that I critized him today so I found it odd to be called “blindy devoted” today of all days.
Aslans Girl on September 23, 2011 at 1:46 AM
No. Wrong. Federalism means that states are allowed to experiment. This should be encouraged. Massachusetts has a highly exceptional set of circumstances. They have a higher physician-to-citizen rate than any other state, and factories of higher education that pump out great physicians. In fact, it’s so exceptional that it shouldn’t be applied to any other state.
John the Libertarian on September 23, 2011 at 1:49 AM
I really liked Perry and think he did a lousy job HOWEVER . . .
. . . to me tonight was all about FOX making sure that only Romney would look like a winner. Every question was aimed to help others bring Perry down or to bring Perry and Bachmann down. FOX isn’t worried about letting Cain or Newt shine a little because they do not consider them capable of winning. They don’t consider Johnson or Santorum or Ron Paul capable of winning either. They try not to injure Huntsman because they want to end up with a big government centrist — and that means Romney or Huntsman.
The Fix is in, even down to the Frank Luntz poll group which was made up by morons, IMHO — who doesn’t know by now that Mitt has been making the argument that Massachusetts was a state experiment for months. That’s not the point – it’s that people in the Obama admin say they used Romneycare as the model for Obamacare.
I am sick and tired of once again believing the people had choices. Nope- it’s the same old game. The media will pick our candidate and shove him down the throats of all those who have not paid any attention since Nov. 2008. And Mitt will be King of the Executive Orders. And Obamacare will stay.
Greyledge Gal on September 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM
OK, Palin can get in. Perry just can’t do this and we can’t have him fail in the debates vs Obama. If Gingrich can get up in the polls that’d be great, but if not I don’t want Romney winning this. Dang it Perry!!! Such a sad night. Still not convinced Palin can win, but at least I won’t have to hold my nose.
kerrhome on September 23, 2011 at 2:19 AM
Perry was particularly bad tonight. Wow.
eanax on September 23, 2011 at 3:05 AM
Much as I love Michele Bachmann, I think she’s done – she might hang around until Iowa, if she’s got the money, but she’s not going to make it.
Cain is doing better in every debate, I suspect to see his numbers rise.
Santorum did better in this debate, too, but I still don’t see him making top tier.
Gingrich and Romney – neither of them did anything to hurt themselves.
Perry doesn’t seem very quick on his feet, and flashing a winning smile isn’t going to cut it. I think the immigration stance will be the nail in his coffin.
Huntsman came across a little better, but I couldn’t trust him.
Ron Paul’s rant about the Fed doesn’t ring true, when you consider that as head of the subcommittee for oversight of the Fed – he hasn’t done jack squat.
tmedlin on September 23, 2011 at 5:20 AM
Thanks AP for putting out the stats on illegals vs job growth
A thread well worth saving
This coincides with the low unemployment in Mexico (3.5 percent)
My local Detroit talk radio WJR this week had guest Wayne Jett, a lawyer and financial advisor, who has put out a book ‘The Fruits of Graft’
Jett talked about FDR and the Depression. The US bought gold overseas, and held about half the world’s supply. But, the gold was not monetized, the money did not reurn to our shores, because of tariffs, so we sat on the greatest gold reserve in the world, while people starved.
Jett said the progressive income tax does not touch the elite class, who do not earn income, and it doesn’t touch the poor who have too little income, but it kills the middle, who are the mercantile class
I am getting his book because his presentation is so rational
From what I see today we have sent our paper dollars our of the country, to Asia, and a huge percentage has not returned, except to buy government securities. That money is consumed by Congress, while the public, though not starving, gets foodstamps as they lose their homes. In 1930 and now, property value crashed, and the elites could buy the farm
China has now dropped short term treasuries, and intends to shift to putting dollars into american business ownership. (the Joe Kennedy model, IMHO)
Jett is interesting becaues Romney’s proposal, to drop taxes on interest and cap gains doesn’t help the bus driver, but it might help the mercantile class. It puts Romney on a course to helping the economy more than Perry, who is directing aid to the illegal alien class
Now if Romney could get a long term tax break for sub chapter S
businesses under 10 million, we might get a rescue going.
The coupon clippers already got theirs – subliminal goldman sachs subliminal. The 43rd richest man in the world used not his own money, but money from his family foundation to invest in Solyndra and got Obama to underwrite the losses. Meanwhile sub chapter s is dying
We are in such a f’n Depression, and the 20 million illegals have made our own blue collar workers into the new migrants
entagor on September 23, 2011 at 5:44 AM
We need a person of courage such as ManlyRash from 2008 who will stand up and say “Palin will get in and she will win it all. If I’m wrong I’ll never comment again” and keep their word if they are wrong.
Palinistas – any takers?
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 7:01 AM
well said
cmsinaz on September 23, 2011 at 7:02 AM
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 7:01 AM
You just want to run off Conservatives. By the way, Manly Rash is hale and hearty, and is proprietor of genehoyas.com (the Bulldog Pundit).
kingsjester on September 23, 2011 at 7:07 AM
I haven’t read all these posts; don’t have all day.
The debate was overly stage-managed by Bret and company, who were all too cute by half.
It was also boring.
Gov. Perry was disappointing (again). He was woefully inarticulate. Gov. Romney walked all over him.
Best line was from whats-his-name: “My two dogs. . .”
/Mr Lynn
MrLynn on September 23, 2011 at 7:22 AM
THIS!
ProudPalinFan on September 23, 2011 at 7:30 AM
I look at the debate with a different perspective because I think that Perry’s immigration stance is reasonable. It seems to me that the subject is the only one which he took much flak about. He was strong on job creation, bringing up his rivalry with Rick Scott a few times. He’s not quick on his feet and that is the worst attribute that I could see. Perry promised a plan soon and that is what I’m waiting for. I hope that he provides enough new and good ideas to make we want to vote for him. If not, I’ll gladly support Romney.
Romney had a great night and will keep this race tight. That’s what I wanted to see. He had his “ad libs” ready to go and used them in a way that didn’t seem forced. But that’s just style. He defended his plan for ending middle class taxation on cap gains, dividends and interest although he didn’t have a good answer for the $200k limit (he should have made clear that it was an arbitrary and negotiable number to exclude rich folks from circumventing the tax code for most of their income).
I like Gary Johnson, but he has no chance, so why bother.
The only other one on stage who got my notice, and not in a good way, was the obnoxious and stupid Santorum. The rest were stage props with nothing much to say beyond their usual shtick. Go away.
MJBrutus on September 23, 2011 at 7:44 AM
So basically once again in 2012, when I walk out of my polling place I’m going to feel dirty as hell. Either TX. Gov. Perry will be the nominee despite his exceptional weakness on the illegal immigration matter or MA Gov. Romney whose failed State healthcare plan was used as a model in large part for Obamacare despite it’s failure to lower the cost and waiting time for healthcare.
Just once, JUST F’N ONCE, I want to feel good leaving my polling place. Herman Cain who is dismissed as not having a real chance did better than those two from what I saw of it.
Yakko77 on September 23, 2011 at 7:48 AM
Fear not, kind Sir. We at the Palin Crying Towel(tm) Ltd. have just the solution. Introducing the Official Romney Nose Plug(tm)!!
That’s right, now you can stroll in to that voting booth free from the usual olfactory discomfort you’ve come to know. Cast your vote for Mitt with ease, knowing he’s the best you’re going to do.
Fine print: The Official Romney Nose Plug(tm) is available only in the continental United States (sorry Alaska and Hawaii)
MJBrutus on September 23, 2011 at 7:56 AM
You hate liars, what do you think of flip floppers?
…to me tonight was all about FOX making sure that only Romney would look like a winner…
The Fix is in… And Obamacare will stay.
Greyledge Gal on September 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM
Fallon on September 23, 2011 at 8:15 AM
Let’s try that again.
You hate liars, what do you think of flip floppers?
Agree 100%. This will be a very bad turn of events if the media and entrenche insiders are shoving Romney down our throats. Can you say Whigs?
Fallon on September 23, 2011 at 8:17 AM
I’m more than a bit concerned about a soldier in uniform confronting a political candidate at a public debate.
Forget that he was gay or his question was about DADT. It’s not appropriate and may be against military code.
What if there were several soldiers confronting a candidate? What if they were in a group and were carrying their weapons and asked something like “Are you going to raise our pay?” “Are you going to our mother’s medicare?”
http://www.medicine.army.mil/news/mercury/09-10/political.cfm
This is what removing DADT will do for our military. This is what turning our armed forces into a social experiment does. It creates a political movement within our military. That soldier, gay or not, was violating military law. He confronted a candidate for office at a political event wearing what appeared to be a military uniform.
OH… but it’s OK I guess because he was gay and he was asking a gay question.
Yeah, every journey they say starts with a single step… or you could change that a bit and say every plummet off the cliff starts with a small leap. Here it is… the politicization of our military.
JellyToast on September 23, 2011 at 8:19 AM
Executive orders look pretty reasonable especially if the intent is to give states the choice. Very good middle ground to appeal to independents and reagan democrats….
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 8:25 AM
the same things were said about integration and allowing women to serve. Worked out pretty well didn’t they. So will this.
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 8:26 AM
I couldn’t watch most of the debate last night while it was being aired and so had to watch the replay.
I read a lot of comments here after the debate claiming Perry was finished, Romney was the defacto nominee and Palin should get in (/Palin die-hards).
Here’s my take on the debate.
Mitt Romney:
Ever the slick talker – he is the snake oil salesman of the group. Romney has no fixed position on any issue but judges his audience and tells them what they want to hear. And the applause he attracted on some of his lines last night showed he was sticking to that script.
Once again, he was not touched by any of the attack dogs (Santorum and Bachmann) who were focused on Perry. He was clearly flustered by Perry’s attack on the different versions of his book and I doubt he will be able to withstand attacks of being a flip-flopper in the general from the media/Democrat machine.
Rick Perry:
His night was not as bad as is being spinned. And neither was it so good a night if people were looking for slick talkers. His answers were honest even if the audience disagreed with him and that is what happens with principled people.
The immigration issue, in my opinion, is overblown and easy to refute with facts. His comment that those opposing the Texas Dream Act did not have a heart might be seen as overly harsh. However, his critics might want to ask why he had support from pretty much everyone in the Texas Legislature in passing it, if it was that bad.
The Others:
Santorum – Obnoxious
Bachmann – Struggling Attack Dog
Gary Johnson – Meh… but good line on the dogs.
Ron Paul – being Ron Paul
Newt Gingrich – Solid as usual
Hermann Cain – Mr. 999. I must say he kept his focus on proposing solutions rather than attacking his opponents.
Overall Verdict:
It was a slugfest between Perry and Romney with each getting in some jabs at the other. Perry has the wind against him (for now) in trying to explain his stance on immigration but I expect him to do it as the campaign progresses.
TheRightMan on September 23, 2011 at 8:31 AM
I did not know this. That guy might be in a bit of trouble and not for being gay…
Fallon on September 23, 2011 at 8:32 AM
Yeah, and there have always been people walking around with signs proclaiming the end is near too. So I guess by your reasoning people who are warning about economic collapse are full of… pardon the pun, hot air.
His question should have been asked by a civilian. No soldier should be confronting political candidates at public events while in uniform.
JellyToast on September 23, 2011 at 8:34 AM
That part I agree with. Remember when Joe Miller’s security thugs got in a bit of hot water in Alaska because a couple of them were active duty military moonlighting for him at this rallies? they didn’t have uniforms on but I’m sure they got disciplinary action for their stupidity.
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 8:40 AM
It’s not about the question. It could’ve been asked by a civilian.
Santorum answered it well, though, I thought. If DADT is put back in place, the the next President can simply order that all gay service members who have come out can not be penalized or kicked out of the service, but from that point forward…. it is again DADT. They can have the option of a transfer if they want. Soldiers are transferred all the time. But no soldier should be penalized for coming out at this time.
But, back to the question, again, nothing wrong with the question but a soldier in uniform should not be asking it or any other or confronting candidates.
How would it seem if a soldier or soldiers who were straight showed up at a political event in uniform or on a youtube video and asked or demanded that DADT be re-instated! That they don’t want to serve next to homosexuals? It would be wrong and they would be breaking military code as well!
JellyToast on September 23, 2011 at 8:56 AM
We are in agreement about the soldier being in uniform. I don’t agree with your view on the DADT decision. I’ve been connected with the military for 30+ years on a daily basis and from my view the repeal just has not been that big of a deal, especially among the younger folks.
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 9:06 AM
I miss Manly Rash – a true optimist even if it wasn’t always warranted.
piglet on September 23, 2011 at 9:13 AM
If I thought mailing you a sense of humor would help I’d do it today
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 9:17 AM
Bwahahahaha!!!
Yeah, proof by assertion is a valid argument.
csdeven on September 23, 2011 at 9:25 AM
The only way Perry survives this is if he nails his next debate. He was abysmal last night. He stumbled, struggled, and blathered his way through answers that he clearly wasn’t ready for. He needs to do us all a favor and go back to Texas and stay there. All he is doing is dragging the debate down. With him out, we can go after Romney.
csdeven on September 23, 2011 at 9:30 AM
You’re right. Perhaps you can mail him a copy of “Blogging for Dummies”? He sure needs the help with that silly blog he has.
csdeven on September 23, 2011 at 9:31 AM
And for me, it is more about giving special rights to a new victim class than it is about having gays in the military.
JellyToast on September 23, 2011 at 9:32 AM
Will have to defer discussion till another time — have to get to work. Have a good one.
Bradky on September 23, 2011 at 9:37 AM
LOL! Thanks. I needed somethingto smile about.
Yakko77 on September 23, 2011 at 11:21 AM
Oh Please! FoxNews hates Romney with a passion. They have been pushing Perry like crazy!!!! Perry was the golden boy.
Perry even had dinner with Murdock to try to get the debate shortened because he can’t stay focused for more than an hour.
Lucky for us. Perry’s attempt at that obivious a quid pro quo deal was too much for Fox to attempt after the have been so obviously pushing Perry.
petunia on September 23, 2011 at 4:15 PM
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