Couple hit with fines for holding a Bible study in their home

posted at 10:45 am on September 22, 2011 by Tina Korbe

Where two are three are gathered in His name, there good ol’ California city government is in the midst of them. Seriously. This happened. The Blaze reports:

A southern California couple has been fined $300 dollars for holding Christian Bible study sessions in their home, and could face another $500 for each additional gathering.

City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.

The Fromms appealed their citations but were denied and warned future sessions would carry heftier penalties. A statement from the Pacific Justice Institute, which is defending the couple in a lawsuit against the city, said Chuck Fromm was also told regular gatherings of three or more people require a conditional use permit, which can be costly and difficult to obtain.

Mrs. Fromm was rightly incensed at the city government’s intrusion into her living room. “I should be able to be hospitable in my own home,” she said. Had it been her bedroom, libs would have leaped to her defense, but as it was, no such luck for the lady.

The municipal code bans a religious organization. I’d say a private Bible study hardly qualifies — it’s just a friendly gathering of like-minded folks. Would the city of San Juan Capistrano also consider a family-members-only Bible study a religious organization?

But, more broadly, why is the ban on the books in the first place? What’s wrong with religious, fraternal and non-profit organizations in a residential neighborhood?

According to The Blaze, the Fromms’ property is such that parking and noise aren’t a problem. Plus, the Bible study is meditative. But the code enforcement department relies on complaints, which means some unfriendly neighbor or other member of the community turned the Fromms in. That snitch makes Gladys Kravitz look politely respectful of privacy.

The old gal in me wants to say “an eye for an eye,” but the new gal in me thinks maybe the Fromms’ best bet would be to ask the city officials — and the snoopy neighbor — to sit in on a session or two.


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What I said isn’t creepy. But you looking up my past is a bit creepy. I might have another born again moment. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:14 AM

Dude, you are not had to find comments on. Don’t get impressed with yourself like anyone would have to go Indy Jones to find one of your misguided comments on faith. The question is, where can’t one find your opinions on faith. My guess is you’re proud of those exchanges. I won’t trouble myself for any of your on-line comments again. For one, you’re so full of hate, it remarkable. Hard to read stuff. Two, I don’t want to get a virus from any of those places.

The point is that you were never really saved. You couldn’t have been. You’ll have to admit that.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:21 AM

Jesus Camp Highlights

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:23 AM

SauerKraut:

Spare me the long lectures about what great things science has done. Science is a tool, and religion has never opposed it. Atheists like to set up this false dichotomy between the two because they like to believe themselves enlightened when their nonbelief is just the dead weight in a moral society. The sum of the contribution of atheism to any human endeavor, truth, science, or otherwise is zero.

They have nothing but pithy statements (like “for good people to do evil deeds, takes religion”) that do not stand up to even basic scrutiny. It’s a nice sound bite for the tiny mind of an atheist with an axe to grind against religion, but Catholicism to name just once admits to the fallen nature of man. Athiesm, being the laziest of beliefs of course inspires all who fall into it to ignore these realities, as it’s much easier to tear down than build up.

Atheism is the opiate of the lazy who never question themselves, never think deeper than what is right in front of their face. They are human driftwood, who stand for nothing, create nothing, contribute to nothing, and waste what little energy they have penning books assaulting an entity they don’t believe in to advance towards their own personal gain.

That is a real f*cking joke, SauerKraut. That you in your petulant railing have done anything but confirm to us you’ve spent a lot of time stewing in your own juices, admiring yourself and your pseudo-intellect fondly.

BKennedy on September 23, 2011 at 12:24 AM

The point is that you were never really saved. You couldn’t have been. You’ll have to admit that.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:21 AM

Aha! Hahahaha! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard all that jazz. I’m full of hate towards the agents of god who’ve poisoned your mind so much that you fear that even entertaining the thought of speaking or thinking against the doctrine puts you in such a state of fear that you cant’ even listen to what I’ve said.

You just call me hateful and attack the messenger like I used to do when I was coming across atheistic kids in college saying that they were never saved, etc…

Blah blah blah.

It’s all just words.

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:26 AM

Just watch the Jesus Camp video. It’s not long. That’s what America is becoming with the evangelical wing of Christianity.

Speaking in tongues and acting like warriors for Jesus.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:28 AM

And yes, I had three “crisis moments” where I felt I needed to resubmit myself to the lord, if you will. What of it?

Were you saved?

You doubt my feelings at those moments?

It’s hard to imagine what if anything, those moments were, but you weren’t saved.

That I didn’t feel that god was in my presence?

You tell me, was he?

That I wasn’t feeling the love of those around me in Christ?

Did you?

That I didn’t almost feel like speaking in tongues (of course that was always a little too creepy, I never did understand that concept but I thought about trying it/I felt strongly enough about my love of the lord though)

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:17 AM

I dunno. It’s only speaking in tongues if those around you understand what you’re saying. I’ve never heard anyone speak in tongues. Can’t comment. But I’m sorry that even when you were a Christian, you’d think that to see a miracle, which speaking in tongues is, would be creepy.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:29 AM

Luckily, knowledge is to faith what light is to darkness. And the fact that you are reading my words right now means that you already have access to the greatest source of knowledge the world has ever known.

SauerKraut537 on September 22, 2011 at 10:47 PM

Obama is posting on the site.

chemman on September 23, 2011 at 12:30 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:26 AM

You ask questions and I answer plainly. I ask questions and you can’t seem to answer.

Where you saved?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:30 AM

Where you saved, three times?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:34 AM

Of course I was saved. That’s what my sponsor said, thats what I felt like.

God you’re dense. I may not have used the phrase saved, but what else is being born again?

Hell, even a google search of born again says what I was saying…

Born again Christianity.

In Christianity, born again refers to a “spiritual rebirth” (regeneration) of the human soul or spirit, contrasted with the physical birth everyone experiences. The origin of the term “born again” is the New Testament: “Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again.’”[Jn 3:3 TNIV][1] It is a term associated with salvation in Christianity. Individuals who profess to be born again often state that they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.[

Now you got me wondering if YOU were ever born again.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:34 AM

In other words my friend. I experienced a rebirth of my soul in Jesus.

Duh.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:35 AM

SauerKraut, it’s a yes or no answer. Aren’t you tired of typing the evasive theses that are at least four or five paragraphs longer than anyone wants to read?

Yes or no.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:36 AM

Now go watch the video… Tell me that’s not what evangelical Christianity is raising our kids as. Granted, the winch who’s in charge of that camp is a little TOO whacky and extreme but you should watch the whole hour long show on it.

It’s out there on Youtube for you to view it…

As for your fear of getting virus’ from those websites. I’ve only every posted on like 10 or less websites. Either linked from here or a few other ones. Never had a virus, but then I run Kaspersky Internet Security and I’m a network engineer so I know how to protect myself better than most when it comes to virus, etc.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:38 AM

I said,

“Of course I was saved.” at 12:34am website time. If that’s not a yes I don’t know what it is.

Quit being dense while claiming I’m being dense.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:40 AM

God you’re dense. I may not have used the phrase saved, but what else is being born again?

You all (Atheists), to a person, start aspersions of our intellect every time you get debated into a corner. Do you all go to the same anti-Christian Clinics? But, it was refreshing to see you address our Holy Father there. That doesn’t get past him. :-)

And I am saved. Yes.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:42 AM

Quit being dense while claiming I’m being dense.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:40 AM

Where did I say you were dense? I’ll take it back.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:43 AM

I said,

“Of course I was saved.” at 12:34am website time. If that’s not a yes I don’t know what it is.

Quit being dense while claiming I’m being dense.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:40 AM

Then, you are still saved. You cannot be unsaved. You cannot receive the Holy Spirit and then lose it.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:44 AM

And 40 yos saying Duh, come on. Bring it up to the Senior High level at least.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM

I never asked you if you were saved did I? I could care less if you think you are or not because it has about as much meaning as nobel peace prize.

I didn’t address god. I twas a figure of speech.

I renounce Jesus

I renounce Jesus

I renounce Jesus sacrifice because if I was present when it happened I would have felt duty bound to stop it.

I now find it repugnant that you can look at the sacrifice of another life as a good thing that somehow alleviates you of the responsibility of your own actions.

To think in the 21st century that people still look at Jesus supposed sacrifice as a good thing… Repulsive to me now.

And all because a winch ate an apple?

LMFAO!!!

Talk about intellect.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:47 AM

Geez, early dentist appointment. Got to go. Thanks for the input, SauerKraut.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:48 AM

Be a good sheeple hawk.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:49 AM

I never asked you if you were saved did I? I could care less if you think you are or not because it has about as much meaning as nobel peace prize.

you got me wondering if YOU were ever born again.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:34 AM

Do you forget what you type? And you call me dense.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:51 AM

Be a good sheeple hawk.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:49 AM

Yep, and you lay off the p0rn sites. Right? lol

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:52 AM

rhetorical question. they don’t require a response.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:52 AM

Do you forget what you type? And you call me dense.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:51 AM

but, but, but,

lol

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:53 AM

it’s pr0n, not p0rn… ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:53 AM

love you bro.

shock has its uses…

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:54 AM

rhetorical question. they don’t require a response.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:52 AM

but, but, but,

lol

Sure Albert. The entire world bows at the searing logic of your fiery intellect.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:56 AM

now turn the other cheek… ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:57 AM

Dakine

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:57 AM

I’ve seen his posts in the past but no… SauerKraut

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM

I’ve seen his posts in the past but no… SauerKraut

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM

Sorry about that. Tragic cut and paste accident. I’m trying to get off of another site with a friend.

But you know of him huh?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:01 AM

shock has its uses…

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:54 AM

Have to ask, what the heck does that mean?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:03 AM

SauerKraut, did you quit?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:07 AM

I’ve seen his posts… I think he was someone on my side of the argument but I don’t recall exactly. We may have “fought” like you and I just did or me vs fossten earlier.

I just enjoy the debate mostly. That’s why I argue it so much.

Religion can make people so stupid sometimes… I’m trying my damndest to reach some of you folk but I know how hard it is to see through the haze of religious goggles.

You fear for your soul, all that jazz.

I’m telling you. Being free of religious guilt trips has made my life so much better. It’s not that I do whatever I want like most theists argue against me, I mean seriously? Why the hell do religious folk think that not having a god or a religion somehow allows one to do whatever they want?

I feel a greater sense of caring than I ever did as a religious person. I always felt so secure in my religion meaning that I knew I was saved you know? I cared about others who weren’t and tried and succeeded with a few people to bring them into the fold but…

My last born again moment was an epiphany. Just trying to spread the love.

And shock and awe is one way to do that.

I know it’s counterproductive to most all who I come across but I know there are people on the fence out there who just need a little nudge to make them see things the way most atheists do.

That’s why the non religious are increasing in number in America these days.

Because people feel emboldened and less threatened by religious zealots today, than they would if it was the days of Torquemada and the several hundred year long Inquisitions…

How many of those people in those days stayed “Christian” because they didn’t want to be branded a witch or a warlock, etc?

Just think about it hawk.

If you REALLY think about it I’m sure you can see where I’m coming from.

Drop the apologetic rationalizations for continued belief and get on with your life, and be good for goodness sakes.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:09 AM

Can you show me in the constitution where they have the right to deny someone their religious expression because the neighbors don’t like extra cars for a couple of hours? get over yourself. Shame on the neighbors for being such jerks as to start this. Shame on you.

Noelie on September 22, 2011 at 11:03 PM

See my earlier posts – this has nothing to do with religion, it is all about a group of people who have chosen on a regular basis to defy the law and tell the city to go pound sand. They need a conditional use permit for such gatherings and have refused to apply for one. It really is simple, they are using you and people like you to create a straw man and flaunt the law.

So people are jerks for objecting to an extra 50 cars on a narrow cul-de-sac on a regular basis? Add to that the inconvenience of trying to enjoy a relaxing morning at home while strangers walk on your lawn, talk loudly, park where your buddies arriving later to watch football would like to park, and some overhang your driveway. What if the Fromms put traffic cones in front of your house to “save” preferred parking for seniors who attend? Such good Christians demonstrating a positive testimony of their Faith.

Try walking a mile in the shoes of the neighbors before you condemn them as jerks and recommend they be shamed for desiring to enjoy peace and privacy. Oh, my guess is that your social life would suffer if your friends had to walk that mile because that was as close as they could park.

InTheBellyoftheBeast on September 23, 2011 at 1:10 AM

you don’t need a religion to be good.

The clergy these days, just like days past, are more interested in your children and money than anything religious or spiritual.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:11 AM

I’ll part with a little joke I often throw out when someone is just completely obstinate and I’m imagining them with their eyes, ears, and mouth covered…

I’m really a satanist who recently gave my life over to Satan. I’m just trying to meet my quota of deconverted Christians. You see, I get a great apartment overlooking the seventh level of hells disembowling fields if I make or break my quota, and I don’t waste my time with people of other religions because we ALL know that Christianity is the one true religion, you know?! They’re already destined for hell!

;-)

Peace man.

Think about it.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:20 AM

I’ve seen his posts… I think he was someone on my side of the argument but I don’t recall exactly. We may have “fought” like you and I just did or me vs fossten earlier.

Dude, this wasn’t much of a fight. You need some polish.

I just enjoy the debate mostly. That’s why I argue it so much.

Really, you’re not very good at it. But that’s just my opinion.

Religion can make people so stupid sometimes…

Appears like Atheist has the same effect.

I’m trying my damndest to reach some of you folk but I know how hard it is to see through the haze of religious goggles.

Please, take a break, we’re fine.

You fear for your soul, all that jazz.

Not enough to get myself saved three times. Project much?

I’m telling you. Being free of religious guilt trips has made my life so much better. It’s not that I do whatever I want like most theists argue against me, I mean seriously? Why the hell do religious folk think that not having a god or a religion somehow allows one to do whatever they want?

For God’s sake you’ve been saved three times. I’m betting on number four being announced right here on Hot Air. Or maybe youtube. Or Black Squirrel. Your not going to do it on topasianp0rn are you?

I feel a greater sense of caring than I ever did as a religious person. I always felt so secure in my religion meaning that I knew I was saved you know? I cared about others who weren’t and tried and succeeded with a few people to bring them into the fold but…

That makes me happy for you. But, as per our previous exchange, if what you’ve said is true, really? You’re still saved.

My last born again moment was an epiphany. Just trying to spread the love.

And you do spread it.

And shock and awe is one way to do that.

I am shocked and I am in awe.

I know it’s counterproductive to most all who I come across but I know there are people on the fence out there who just need a little nudge to make them see things the way most atheists do.

You’re what makes society work. :-)

That’s why the non religious are increasing in number in America these days.

Really?

Because people feel emboldened and less threatened by religious zealots today, than they would if it was the days of Torquemada and the several hundred year long Inquisitions…

Now they’re just scared of Atheist Zealots.

How many of those people in those days stayed “Christian” because they didn’t want to be branded a witch or a warlock, etc?

I dunno. In fact, not even sure where that came from.

Just think about it hawk.

Done.

If you REALLY think about it I’m sure you can see where I’m coming from.

Nope.

Drop the apologetic rationalizations for continued belief and get on with your life, and be good for goodness sakes.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:09 AM

but, but, but

lol

top asian

lol

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:23 AM

Who’s Natasha Thomas? Geesh dude! Stop creeping me out.

But you proved my point on your retort to my last long post (I know, which one you ask) (hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:23 AM). You just can’t see what I’m saying and I know, its fun to disparage your opponent by cutting them down, I “get it”, I’m guilty, we’re all guilty…

I guess you need to cross that bridge first before you see it my way. You’ll know the one I speak of once you get there.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:32 AM

but no, that wasn’t me. I wasn’t posting in 2006 as this name. Was that why you mentioned p0rn earlier?

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:33 AM

Oh I get it… the email address… topasianprorn dot com… I kept wondering what the hell you were saying there. LOL

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

Who’s Natasha Thomas? Geesh dude! Stop creeping me out.

I dunno. It would be creepy for someone to visit a site like that intentionally though, huh. Weird that two folks could have exactly the same SauerKraut537 screenname. I know it can’t be you though. You’re even more morale than a Christian.

But you proved my point on your retort to my last long post (I know, which one you ask) (hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:23 AM). You just can’t see what I’m saying and I know, its fun to disparage your opponent by cutting them down, I “get it”, I’m guilty, we’re all guilty…

Whaa? Now you’re creeping me out. What does any of that mean? You called me dense. You called me sheeple. You questioned my intellect. Only after exhaustive patience did I return with very light-hearted barbs. Do you think people will just take your insults all night? Or do you just not meet many Christains who defend themselves?

I guess you need to cross that bridge first before you see it my way. You’ll know the one I speak of once you get there.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:32 AM

I’ll never see your way. Evidently, I need to be saved at least two more times before I can even get close to your level of faith. For whatever it is that you actually believe in. I’d ask again, but you’re not very clear and frankly, it’s making my head hurt trying to keep up with your changing assertions.

Pick one story and stay with it.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:41 AM

Oh I get it… the email address… topasianprorn dot com… I kept wondering what the hell you were saying there. LOL

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

yeah, that’s it. Isn’t that a scream? Weird huh?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:43 AM

Well I normally just like the name. I chose the number arbitrarily but it was apparently taken when I went to register.

I tire of it as well. I got shit to do anyway. Been working through all this commenting on several servers and networks cleaning up and working to fix event log errors… doing regular maintenance.

I get very little sleep in my line of work.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:48 AM

I get very little sleep in my line of work.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:48 AM

You head off then my friend, you gave it your best shot here tonight. You fought the good fight within your capabilities.

Straight to bed then, right? No skimpy-clad asian girls on the way okay? (Kidding, that is so strange, lol) You have a good night and thanks for the exchange. I really can’t remember one I enjoyed more.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:56 AM

like you did hawk, within your capabilities. ;-)

All respect. Same goes to everyone else who cares.

I’m the nicest guy in person. You wouldn’t believe it, and I’m sure I’ll hear some snide remarks based on what’s been said and how “mean” it was, but I really am. Just trying to make you think man.

The internet affords us all a level of anonymity and brings out the more brazen side of us sometimes… Especially in heated debates like this one. Which is bound to offend no matter how nice one is.

;-)

Peace

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:08 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:08 AM

And the humblest too? :-)

But dude, (fistbump) you gone me thinking ….

Done.

And to be offended, you would have had to struck a nerve. Didn’t happen. I do get disappointed when the side of the debate that isn’t doing real well descends into the intellectual insults. But, I’m trained in a basic understanding of phycology for my job and I understand it’s a defense mechanism. So, just like my students at work, I try to see it for what it is.

And again, you felt like this was heated? I’m sorry it turned into a struggle for you. I’ll go easier on you next time. lol

But you’re right, the anonymity of the internet does bring out the douchebag in some. Not us though, right? We’re the nicest people we know. :-)

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 2:19 AM

“got” …

later

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM

actually in person I’m TOO humble. The internet allows me to act out in ways I can’t do in person (sometimes). I do debate people in person though when the topic arises… But I usually bite my tongue when someone makes a colloquially religious comment.

We have a parent between us here on the internet, keeping us from going to fisticuffs (not that we would have but…)

And no, it wasn’t particularly heated. I just assume whomever I’m debating gets mad when I say some things and read things they say (like the snide comments and retorts)… something always gets lost in reading things rather than hearing them or seeing the person say it.

I’m sorry, I have the hardest time believing that the creator of the entire cosmos put on a ‘meat suit’ to masquerade as a human for thirty something years… Just so this deity could undergo some form of blood ritual sacrifice, so that the other 2/3 of his triune self could then feel good about forgiving humans for not living up to an impossible standard of perfection.

Further, this deity’s forgiveness is contingent upon believing in revelations and miracles that only happened in the ancient past. Any god that will only reveal “himself” in the ancient past should not be surprised, nor upset, that large numbers of people don’t believe in him today.

If God’s existence is so self evident as the christian proclaims, then why on earth have oceans of ink been spilled trying to prove this being?

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:32 AM

actually in person I’m TOO humble. The internet allows me to act out in ways I can’t do in person (sometimes). I do debate people in person though when the topic arises… But I usually bite my tongue when someone makes a colloquially religious comment.

Then, I’d say you have some deeper problems friend.

We have a parent between us here on the internet, keeping us from going to fisticuffs (not that we would have but…)

Yeah, good thing. It is like, the last thing you’d want to happen in your life. You’d fair worse than an on-line debate. Do us both a favor and don’t even insinuate such things. People get banned for that. And really, your assertion is frankly, over the top and uncalled for. I’m trying to be nice with you and I’m trying to be patient but alluding to interaction with violence involved is just over the top.

And no, it wasn’t particularly heated. I just assume whomever I’m debating gets mad when I say some things and read things they say (like the snide comments and retorts)… something always gets lost in reading things rather than hearing them or seeing the person say it.

You said it and I get the feeling you felt it was heated. We debate at different levels. No shame in that for you.

I’m sorry, I have the hardest time believing that the creator of the entire cosmos put on a ‘meat suit’ to masquerade as a human for thirty something years… Just so this deity could undergo some form of blood ritual sacrifice, so that the other 2/3 of his triune self could then feel good about forgiving humans for not living up to an impossible standard of perfection.

Further, this deity’s forgiveness is contingent upon believing in revelations and miracles that only happened in the ancient past. Any god that will only reveal “himself” in the ancient past should not be surprised, nor upset, that large numbers of people don’t believe in him today.

If God’s existence is so self evident as the christian proclaims, then why on earth have oceans of ink been spilled trying to prove this being?

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:32 AM

Again, you type too much. I don’t read to the end of your comments especially if it’s stuff you’ve pretty much said before, in about 17 other places on the internet. I guess this meat-suit thing is one of your favorites? You find it insulting to us and consider yourself witty for repeating it. Again and again and again?

From youtube, repeated about 30 times.

Great comment from SauerKraut537, not exactly on the topic of THIS particular video but beautifully stated: “I have the hardest time believing that the creator of the entire cosmos put on a ‘meat suit’ to masquerade as a human for thirty something years… Just so this deity could undergo some form of blood ritual sacrifice so that the other 2/3 of his triune self could then feel good about forgiving humans for not living up to an impossible standard of perfection.

Kraut, maybe you should spend more time on topasianp0rn.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 2:50 AM

again you misunderstand me. there was no veiled threat hawk (this goes back to what gets lost in just reading something rather than hearing it), and yes I often repeat lines because I find them funny, big deal.

Lighten up Francis.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:57 AM

Somehow 50 people in a home sounds excessive on a regular (or even one time) basis. If it was five or maybe ten people this action would have been beyond the pale. For 50 people the couple’s action was way beyond the pale.

{^_^}

herself on September 23, 2011 at 2:57 AM

but I enjoyed your bluster there… the last thing I’d want to happen in my life. LOL! You have no idea. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:58 AM

Now if I could ONLY get you to be as inquisitive of your beliefs as you are of what I’ve said on the internet…

Use that Google-fu to look up the proof of Christianity or any other religion.

Go look up the outsider test of faith and learn a little sumptin why don’t'cha?

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 3:03 AM

but I enjoyed your bluster there… the last thing I’d want to happen in my life. LOL! You have no idea. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:58 AM

Really. No idea of what? Sounds like you’re still insinuating internet tough guy. Take your weak azz to bed, Son.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 3:20 AM

If God’s existence is so self evident as the christian proclaims, then why on earth have oceans of ink been spilled trying to prove this being?

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:32 AM

Those “oceans of ink” have not cost you a thing, and they have brought many people to connect with their Creator. I’m a lousy, struggling Christian so I write you off as a waste of space, but others will pray for you, so you get it both ways. Huzzah!

Extrafishy on September 23, 2011 at 6:07 AM

This entire thread seems to have been successfully hijacked by someone who quite obviously could care less about others’ rights.

Very simply, the issue should be addressed as an obvious and very serious constitutional matter.

At least as described in the story, both the underlying ordinance and the actions taken by local city officials from San Juan Capistrano, California in enforcing that code, on their face constitute overly intrusive and impermissible state actions, all taken in violation of the fundamental constitutional rights of the Fromms, and in particular, their rights pursuant to the free exercise clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. And because the prayer meetings are being held in a private home, there are additional matters of concern regarding the authority of local officials to interpose any such restrictions on these folks.

For crying out loud, since 1940, in a decision written by Justice Owen Roberts, Cantwell v. Connecticut, our explicit First Amendment guarantee of the right to free exercise of religion has been recognized as being fully protected against obstruction by state and local action, as well as federal action, by virtue of its incorporation pursuant to the 14th Amendment.

The notion that there could conceivably be any substantial state or local governmental interest involved in requiring private individuals or organizations to be licensed to hold unobtrusive prayer meetings in a private home, is not only absurd, it is facially unconstitutional.

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Trochilus,
Your assertion that I or others don’t care for others rights is wrong. I’m not infringing on anyone’s rights by arguing the invalidity of religious belief. Or am I not allowed an opinion?
LOL

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:19 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:19 PM

Crusade =/= Opinion.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Crusade =/= Opinion.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Hawkdriver, many thanks for tackling this fellow and his illogic. I am a devout Catholic, yet I cannot find the right words to deflate Sauer. You are doing a fabulous job. Thanks….

chai on September 23, 2011 at 1:43 PM

chai on September 23, 2011 at 1:43 PM

Simply holding your faith dear allows you to win any argument such as this. Then you’ve already bested him.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 1:54 PM

Chai,
Hawk didn’t defeat anyone, except in his own mind, and the minds of those who hold the same beliefs he does…

Faith is retarded. It does nothing for anyone except for the person who holds it, just like prayer.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM

Trochilus,
Your assertion that I or others don’t care for others rights is wrong. I’m not infringing on anyone’s rights by arguing the invalidity of religious belief. Or am I not allowed an opinion?
LOL

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 1:19 PM

My prior assertion that you do not care for others’ rights is quite manifest from your repeated statements herein. If you cared a whit for others’ rights, you would defend their right to hold those views, even if you didn’t agree with them.

But you’d prefer to turn a discussion about rights into a discussion about the validity or non-validity of the views, and in particular, to repeatedly attempt to belittle and personally attack those who hold religious views.

My comment was merely intended to point out that you had succeeded in hijacking the entire thread by obnoxiously pursuing that line.

You obviously have no respect at all for the opinions of those holding religious beliefs, and express their opinions thereon, and yet you now ask me, “am I not allowed an opinion?”

Of course you are! We’ve been subjected to it here, over and over again. Sadly, however, you are so thoroughly obsessed with it as your “one and only” topic of interest, that you feel obliged to keep trying to provoke others in order to turn the topic away from commenting on the constitutionally offensive actions taken by the small-minded officials of San Juan Capistrano, California.

Is it just ignorance that prevents you from joining a discussion of that topic? Or are you incapable of addressing more than one issue at a time?

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 3:28 PM

Trochilus

Show me where I said I wouldn’t defend their rights to hold those views, or where I said that I WOULD refuse them that right.

You can’t because I never said they couldn’t hold those views.

I said I wished they DIDN’T hold those views and that they free’d themselves from the abnegating mental shackles that they represent to deists and atheists like myself, but I NEVER said they didn’t have a right to those beliefs.

You’re putting words in my mouth my friend.

I don’t have to respect a view someone holds if they can’t provide WORTHY evidence to support it.

The problem with religious views Trochilus is that they only have anecdotal evidence to back them up, from people who subscribe to that belief system.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 3:38 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 2:39 PM

First Albert, she said deflate, not defeat. We’re not gladiators.

Second, you argue like a sophomore in JHS rather than a 40 year old man.

Third, you haven’t had an original debate point for as long as I can remember now. We’ve argued these same points months/years ago. I’d bet money I’ve debated you under another screen name too. But, your entire debate routine is a never-ending cut and paste show from threads you’ve made months years ago. Your favorite is the meat suit paragraph than a person could find on at least four different sites to include this one on probably 20-30 different occasions. How about you sit it out one night and come up with some different material?

Four, You’re not witty. You’re not funny. You talk about discussion with young people in person and I call BS. Ten bucks says the anonymity of the computer screen is the only forum you find enough courage to spew your hate. You’d piss your pants if anyone even raised their voice to you.

If your purpose was to win folks from their faith. You fail. If you’re purpose was to look clever in word, you fail.

If your purpose was to once again, get your ass handed to you in an exchange of words, you at least succeeded in that. But here’s my favorite part of the exchange again. Because it proves how dull you really are.

I never asked you if you were saved did I? I could care less if you think you are or not because it has about as much meaning as nobel peace prize.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011

you got me wondering if YOU were ever born again.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 12:34 AM

Do you forget what you type? And you call me dense.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 12:51 AM

but, but, but in the third century BS that wouldn’t have been a real question because but, but, but

lol

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 3:53 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 3:38 PM

Your entire pathetic existence is anecdotal evidence.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 3:55 PM

LOL@hawk.

I’m used to that claim hawk.

You HAVE to belittle my arguments as “sophomoric” because if you accepted them as “collegial” then I might have a point, and you can’t have that because then you might have to rethink things a little.

My life was a pathetic existence when I still believed, but now? I LOVE it.

Carry on soldier.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 4:19 PM

LOL@hawk.

I’m used to that claim hawk.

Good, ridicule appears destined to be a big part of your life.

You HAVE to belittle my arguments as “sophomoric” because if you accepted them as “collegial” then I might have a point, and you can’t have that because then you might have to rethink things a little.

No, I feel compelled to call your arguments sophomoric, because they’re sophomoric.

My life was a pathetic existence when I still believed, but now? I LOVE it.

Carry on soldier.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 4:19 PM

Well, trying to pin you down to what you really believe is the trick right. One might have a hard time being convinced you were ever saved at all considering the energy and vitriol you put into your anti-Christian Crusade. But you say you were saved. I guess I have to accept that even though to everyone else I’m sure it sounds like one of those dodges to support your argument.

“Hey Dude, I know it’s hard to shake the faith. Believe me I’ve been there. I’ve been saved three times. Three times man, how many times you been saved man? Now the truth is like diamond bullet and I not only can’t accept the fact that there’s something greater than myself, but I feel a personal obligation because I used to be a Christian, (wink, wink) because I used to persecute others from jobs as a Christian, after all that I feel like I need to persecute other Christians. Not all faiths, just Christians. WAKE UP MAN AND SMELL THE SINGED EARTH BURNING FROM CHRISTIANS DESTROYING IT”

Now, I’m paraphrasing here for sure. But it is the flavor of about most of your rants here and on Youtube. As a matter of fact, if you pay me, I’ll do your Hot Air gig for you so you can work on some new material.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 4:34 PM

You obviously have no respect at all for the opinions of those holding religious beliefs, and express their opinions thereon, and yet you now ask me, “am I not allowed an opinion?”

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 3:28 PM

Trochilus, I’m sorry to horn in on your exchange with Kraut, but his is what you’re talking about and he’ll never admit to it. He doesn’t think other have a right to an opinion. This is from youtube and he thinks because someone’s ideas are “a big FAIL!”

This Voris character needs to be run off the internet and I don’t mean that in a forceful way, as in he doesn’t have a right to say what he wants to say, but he needs to be scorned off the internet. His ideas are a big FAIL!

SauerKraut537 1 year ago

Kraut is quite incapable of abiding by the rules he demands everyone else afford him. And he was commenting on a montage of “select” comments a group put together of this man’s statements. The video itself was a study in “Out of Context”.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 4:45 PM

From the site Pharyngula

Posted by: SauerKraut537 | February 12, 2011 1:05 PM
I have the hardest time believing that the creator of the ENTIRE cosmos put on a ‘meat suit’ to masquerade as a human for thirty something years… Just so this deity could undergo some form of blood ritual sacrifice, so that the other 2/3 of his “triune” self could then feel good about forgiving humans for not living up to an impossible standard of perfection.
Further, this deity’s forgiveness is contingent upon believing in revelations and miracles that only happened in the ancient past.
ANY god that will only reveal “himself” in the ancient past should not be surprised, nor upset, that large numbers of people don’t believe in him today.
If God’s existence is so self evident as the christian proclaims, then why on earth have oceans of ink been spilled trying to prove this being?

Get some new material.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 4:49 PM

Wow, from the same site the year before.

Posted by: SauerKraut537 | August 11, 2010 9:40 PM
Came across a brilliant forum post the other day… Goes like this.

Wow, wait, I guess it isn’t even your original comment? Isn’t that plagiarism?

I have the hardest time believing that the creator of the entire cosmos put on a ‘meat suit’ to masquerade as a human for thirty something years… Just so this deity could undergo some form of blood ritual sacrifice so that the other 2/3 of his triune self could then feel good about forgiving humans for not living up to an impossible standard of perfection.
Further, this deity’s forgiveness is contingent upon believing in revelations and miracles that only happened in the ancient past.
Any god that will only reveal “himself” in the ancient past should not be surprised, nor upset, that large numbers of people don’t believe in him today.

Not only get some new material, get your own material.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 3:38 PM

Please, do not ever call me your friend, even sarcastically. I do not count as friends those, like you, who consistently preach intolerance toward people who are merely exercising their legitimate constitutional rights.

I see from your latest comment you are still insistent on spewing your contempt for those who have religious views, rather than engaging in a discussion of the rights that are involved.

I’d almost be tempted to feel sorry for someone like you, holding such narrow views. But it’s pretty clear that you derive some form of odd pleasure from consistently expressing your pernicious views of others, and I wouldn’t want to say anything to encourage your strange little hobby.

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 5:07 PM

Hey hawk,

I love how you’re wasting your time with my previous posts on other websites and in other forums bro. It’s f*cking hilarious man.

Do you REALLY think I give a shit what you think of my posts I’ve made in the past? It’s like you think your counting coup for each post you find that I’ve ever posted or something. Keep counting bro! I’m having a great time laughing at the waste of time you’re being.

I’m almost falling out my chair laughing about it.

Oh, and your assertion that I don’t think you have a right to your opinion is bubkis. I think you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m equally entitled to laugh my ass off at the inanity of it.

Has it never occurred to you that this god we all imagine exists might be a little bit perturbed that you would believe he needed to treat his son to a sacrifice so that he himself could then allow us imperfect beings into his presence?

What would you say to god when you die and he greets you if he was pissed off that you’d slandered him like you have by believing he was that blood thirsty of a monster?

You’re all a bunch of f*cking idiots. I wash my hands of the inanity of you and whoever else thinks these theistic gods are real.

What a bunch of maroons!

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 5:07 PM

ok friend. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Are you kidding. 2, maybe 3 minutes a piece to find each one. Don’t flatter yourself Xerox-Boy.

I do see that vitriol coming out now though. Here’s something for “you” to think about. At least have the courage to say what you are. You’re an anti-religious activist bent on the destruction of Christianity. There isn’t a thread about religion you pass up. There isn’t a holiday thread where all people wanted to do was wish each other happiness that you didn’t show up and crap on. Now, I know you sit there and snicker because that’s your intent. Just grow some balls and admit it. Your forums, your websites, they’re all, to a one, the most hateful collection of up-tight assholes I’ve ever read. Your chief claim as you mock Christians non-stop is, why can’t they just leave others alone to live in peace.

Ironic and hypocritical is there is meaning to either one of those words at all.

I would die, before I’d agree to be something like you. You’re sad and pathetic.

Aren’t you tired of this yet?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

oh, and Trochilus…

Me speaking out against your beliefs is not intolerance. I tolerate Christians just fine. What I don’t tolerate is the fatuous dogma and eschatological elements tied up in it.

You Christians, and myself back when I was one, actually look forward to the end times. You look forward to seeing Jesus floating down out of the sky because that means the end of your pain and suffering on this earth.

You get to go to your heaven so you can be with your family and friends for eternity… Talk about boring.

When I die, that’s it, same as you. And I’m glad for that because I wouldn’t want to live for an eternity praising ad nauseum the god who took my little sister from her family with cancer. Wouldn’t want to live an eternity worshiping a god who, as an example only, lets one person survive out of 150 in a plane crash, and his followers call it a miracle. Wouldn’t want to spend eternity with no worries and wants…

Be a zombie all you like. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Are you kidding. 2, maybe 3 minutes a piece to find each one. Don’t flatter yourself Xerox-Boy.

I do see that vitriol coming out now though. Here’s something for “you” to think about. At least have the courage to say what you are. You’re an anti-religious activist bent on the destruction of Christianity. There isn’t a thread about religion you pass up. There isn’t a holiday thread where all people wanted to do was wish each other happiness that you didn’t show up and crap on. Now, I know you sit there and snicker because that’s your intent. Just grow some balls and admit it. Your forums, your websites, they’re all, to a one, the most hateful collection of up-tight a$$wipes I’ve ever read. Your chief claim as you mock Christians non-stop is, why can’t they just leave others alone to live in peace.

Ironic and hypocritical is there is meaning to either one of those words at all.

I would die, before I’d agree to be something like you. You’re sad and pathetic.

Aren’t you tired of this yet?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 6:40 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

Everything you say write here is a lie. You tolerate nothing. You advocate banning. You call for banishment and censoring. The sites you belong edit opposing comment and laugh about it.

Maybe it’s because you’re such a poor debater that you feel the need to level the playing field.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 6:42 PM

LMFAO@hawk

Stop it man! You’re cracking me up.

You HAVE to demonize me because I’ve spoken the truth to you and you see your faith for what it is… Stupidity.

I totally believe you can think what you want. I can’t change what you think if you’re not willing to listen, but I’m equally entitled to laugh at every ignorant thing you say in defense of your faith.

LOL!

buh bye

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:45 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:45 PM

Getting your nose rubbed in your own hypocrisy cracks you up?

To each his own.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 6:47 PM

Bye bye ;-)

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 6:48 PM

There you go again demonizing me by calling me a hypocrite…

I know, I know hawk… It’s OK… I know it’s just a way for you to justify your stupidity.

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:52 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:52 PM

I thought you said, “Bye bye”?

But if you consider me proving all of the points I asserted and you proving not a single one of yours makes “me” stupid. Fine, just remember. Rationalization is a defense mechanism. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Tell me again though, why do you all revert to the anger? What is it about us that makes you so angry? We have no site dedicated to the mocking of Atheists like you guys do Christians. We don’t spend our every waking moment trying to think of how “Jesus, Mohammed and Abraham all walk into a bar.” and how does it end jokes. That’s your reality. That’s your obsession. We just want to be left in peace. Why man?

But again, you didn’t prove a single one of your points. You didn’t disprove a single one of my points. I’m not sure how you can bear to keep commenting.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 7:06 PM

And really, your obsession here is creepy.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 7:07 PM

oh, and Trochilus…

Me speaking out against your beliefs is not intolerance. I tolerate Christians just fine. What I don’t tolerate is the fatuous dogma and eschatological elements tied up in it.

You Christians, and myself back when I was one –

. . . .

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

Strange . . . I never even once addressed a single word to you, or to anyone else on this thread, or — so far as I can recall — to anyone on any thread here at HotAir, any information regarding my personal faith, or my personal beliefs.

As with so much of what you have written on this thread, your comment above was based on pure conjecture.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Trochilus on September 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM

He really doesn’t. Great comments. You really have him to a tee.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 7:43 PM

Keep consoling yourselves… I’m just sitting here enjoying the exhibition of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

As I said earlier… You’re attack the messenger, not the message. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Keep consoling yourselves… I’m just sitting here enjoying the exhibition of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

As I said earlier… You’re attack the messenger, not the message. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Whatever. You didn’t prove a single point. You didn’t woo a single believer. What are you so proud of yourself over?

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 7:48 PM

I’m not proud of anything hawk. What’s there to be proud of? I take it back… I’m proud that I’ve broken free of the cognitive dissonance of religious belief. That I’ve seen my own confirmation bias for what it is and decided to stop doing it to myself.

Let go of these theistic gods and you might see what I see, but you won’t… I knew that going in. I’ve seen it in every argument I’ve ever had on this topic.

People will believe what they want to believe.

Contemplation of one’s mortality can addle even the clearest of thinkers. It’s a bit like religion in that way. In fact, it IS religion, and by that I mean that the fear of death gives a lot of “oomph” to the God hypothesis.

The only position in regards to a religion that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism

Ever since we learned of our pending mortality — the most unfortunate consequence of evolving a larger brain — we have done our best to mitigate its doleful message. Much of the greatest works in philosophy, religion, art, and music either exist to bewail our mortality or to argue that a spiritual continuity permits us to accept the physical decline, and eventual decay of our bodies. As the lyrics of Bach’s Jesu meine Freude insists: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.”
Stephen J Gould, Urchin in the storm

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 7:55 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 7:55 PM.

Great for the independence from Our Maker, man. Happy for you, really!

None of that was the discussion though. Not even the original discussion.

Actually, the original points were just defending the comments Elisa made in a discussion with Pablo Honey.

(Holy Crap and welcome to Short Attention Span Theater.)

Elisa said this …

The past century has shown what enforced atheism (not individual atheists) have done for society. Look at the millions murdered because of communism, Nazism, Cambodia, etc. Even the wildly exaggerated claims of deaths from the Spanish Inquisition (proven to be less than 4,000 by scholars who have studied the actual case files still kept in Spain, including atheist scholars), pale in comparison to the actual murders by regimes without faith.

Elisa on September 22, 2011 at 8:32 PM

Pablo Honey said this without regard to the balance of Elisa’s comment …

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

~Noted athiest Adolf Hitler.

Pablo Honey on September 22, 2011 at 8:40 PM

We had this exchange …

Didn’t say he was a Christain. Said he was not an athiest.

Claim was made that Nazism was an athiest regime.

It wasn’t and Hitler wasn’t.

Pablo Honey on September 22, 2011 at 9:03 PM

Pablo Honey on September 22, 2011 at 9:03 PM

Oh, I got you.

But you don’t dispute the other points?

hawkdriver on September 22, 2011 at 9:05 PM

She wrote …

No I dispute them as well.

Pretty much everything she wrote you can mark down as disputed by Pablo Honey.

Pablo Honey on September 22, 2011 at 9:16 PM

And then we established that Pol Pot banned all religion before he went on a murderous atheist rage in Cambodia and kjilled millions. That Benito Mussolini, Hitler’s strongest ally was an atheist and was complicit in the murder of 6 million European Jews. We further established that Marx, Lenin, Stalin and every other Communist Leader was an, you guessed it, an atheist and their state went on to established Gosateizm. An atheistic state where organized religion was illegal. We also discussed the Great Purge under Stalin and the millions he killed. All atheist regimes.

So, my only point on this whole thread was that Elisa was right. Which she was. It was a sucker bet for you to get involved, but you tried to turn it into one of your sermons. You’re still trying.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 8:06 PM

You prove nothing. For the last time, you accomplish, nothing.

You fail. Again and again.

And I’m starting to feel like I’m smacking around an unarmed man so I have to quit. Please, just go to youtube and mock us where you have an understanding crowd.

Your obsession is really freaking me out man. Really freaky.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 8:10 PM

lol

conversations evolve hawk… that’s just what happens when people talk. You think you’re counting another coup by pointing that out?

Oh, and you didn’t win the pol pot argument. His atheism, something that all buddhists/confucionists/taoists are, wasn’t a deciding factor in his rampage of death. His collectivism and autocratic ways were what contributed to his killing spree.

Atheism doesn’t INFORM how one exhibits morals or ethics hawk. It’s just the absence of theism.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 8:18 PM

LOL! talk about obsession? You keep coming back for more. You just gotta make yourself feel like you won. Keep telling yourself you won and that’s your reality. ;-)

Who was it who said “If you hear a lie often enough its easier to believe it”?

Just keep telling yourself to believe and you will!

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 8:20 PM

quit lying to yourself

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 8:21 PM

conversations evolve hawk… that’s just what happens when people talk. You think you’re counting another coup by pointing that out?

You trying to more the discussion, like you always do, doesn’t equate to the discussion evolving. What a clown. I mean really. Do you even believe what you say. Is a gimmick to you, or have you deluded yourself also>

Oh, and you didn’t win the pol pot argument. His atheism, something that all buddhists/confucionists/taoists are, wasn’t a deciding factor in his rampage of death. His collectivism and autocratic ways were what contributed to his killing spree.

You’re smoking crack. He took a Buddhist country and outlawed it and any other religion. In the name of his atheism, he murdered millions of his countrymen.

Atheism doesn’t INFORM how one exhibits morals or ethics hawk. It’s just the absence of theism.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 8:18 PM

Stop lying to yourself. Where you claim that people of faith ignore Science, I think it’s obvious atheists ignore political science and actual history. Go on telling yourself what you think you need to hear. But your religion of no faith is responsible for the majority of the carnage of the last century.

hawkdriver on September 23, 2011 at 8:38 PM

Try again hawk. Merely citing common denominators does not establish the cause of their actions. It is important to consider what was the main driving force in their committing atrocities against their own people. Pol Pot was a communist, and communists disliked religions because they commanded an authority greater than themselves, they commanded allegiances that transcended national borders and thus they were a threat to the collectivist mentality of communistic thought.

Atheism doesn’t INFORM anyone on how they should be, who they should war with, nothing like that at all.

Atheism is a response to a claim… The claim being the theists, that a god named, insert gods name of choice here, exists and that he has a revelation for us. Atheism is the ABSENCE OF THEISM, that is all

The problem with your thinking is the fact that there are good atheists today, and bad atheists, good theists, and bad theists. Bad or immoral behavior is not limited to one group or the other, but ALL of us.

Atheists just choose to be good or bad without a god in their lives. Theists choose to be good or bad with a god in their lives.

It’s just plain DUMB to claim that atheism was to blame for what these men did.

You’re just looking to justify your beliefs that atheists are fools and that we’ll get our just due… (Psalm 14:1-3)

ANY “holy book” with verses like Deuteronomy 23:1 which says,
“If a man’s testicles are crushed or his penis is cut off, he may not be admitted to the assembly of the LORD.”

or Malachi 2:3 which says,
“Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces”

ISN’T the word of god. It’s a bad, bad joke is what it is.

You’re going to have to do a hell of a lot better with your holy book than that when it comes to the god of the cosmos.

But believe what you will. I’m sure you will.

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 9:04 PM

Obama and the dems at work, trying to cut off disagreement with their criminal ways.

proconstitution on September 23, 2011 at 9:15 PM

Thanks, Hawk,

Got this in an email today and thought you and others might like it:

My wife and I were in slow-moving traffic the other day and we were stopped behind a car that had an unusual Obama bumper sticker on it.

It read: “Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8″.

When we got home my wife got out the Bible and opened it up to the scripture.

She started laughing & laughing. Then she read it to me.
I couldn’t believe what it said. I had a good laugh, too.

King James Version
Psalm 109:8 ~ “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.”

Elisa on September 23, 2011 at 9:28 PM

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