Couple hit with fines for holding a Bible study in their home

posted at 10:45 am on September 22, 2011 by Tina Korbe

Where two are three are gathered in His name, there good ol’ California city government is in the midst of them. Seriously. This happened. The Blaze reports:

A southern California couple has been fined $300 dollars for holding Christian Bible study sessions in their home, and could face another $500 for each additional gathering.

City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.

The Fromms appealed their citations but were denied and warned future sessions would carry heftier penalties. A statement from the Pacific Justice Institute, which is defending the couple in a lawsuit against the city, said Chuck Fromm was also told regular gatherings of three or more people require a conditional use permit, which can be costly and difficult to obtain.

Mrs. Fromm was rightly incensed at the city government’s intrusion into her living room. “I should be able to be hospitable in my own home,” she said. Had it been her bedroom, libs would have leaped to her defense, but as it was, no such luck for the lady.

The municipal code bans a religious organization. I’d say a private Bible study hardly qualifies — it’s just a friendly gathering of like-minded folks. Would the city of San Juan Capistrano also consider a family-members-only Bible study a religious organization?

But, more broadly, why is the ban on the books in the first place? What’s wrong with religious, fraternal and non-profit organizations in a residential neighborhood?

According to The Blaze, the Fromms’ property is such that parking and noise aren’t a problem. Plus, the Bible study is meditative. But the code enforcement department relies on complaints, which means some unfriendly neighbor or other member of the community turned the Fromms in. That snitch makes Gladys Kravitz look politely respectful of privacy.

The old gal in me wants to say “an eye for an eye,” but the new gal in me thinks maybe the Fromms’ best bet would be to ask the city officials — and the snoopy neighbor — to sit in on a session or two.


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But believe what you will. I’m sure you will.

SauerKraut537 on September 23, 2011 at 9:04 PM

I already do.

You could have saved yourself the time time and just typed this. I read so little of the rest of it anyways.

You people are so full of yourselves. Go read your own atheist site threads. Self-righteous. Arrogant, smug, progressive and intolerant. They are filled with chest thumping idiots saying, I just put a Christian in his place today and I keyed a car with a fish on it today and I got my Christian girlfriend doubt to her faith today. As if it were gang-initiation pranks. Grow up. The lot of you.

Again, I’d rather be dead than be on of you.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 7:33 AM

Elisa on September 23, 2011 at 9:28 PM

I’ve seen that and pardon me assuming you were a female.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 9:15 AM

@hawk

I knew you would.

Oh, I’m arrogant, smug, and intolerant?

As if saying that YOU know that there is a god out there, and that his name is Yahweh, and that he has a son name Jesus who was king of the Jews, and he sacrificed himself to himself to appease himself and if you don’t believe it you’re going to hell isn’t arrogant, smug in your “protected because you believe mentality” and intolerant?

LOL!

What about those who were slaughtered in the past because they didn’t believe?

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:18 AM

That’s a good one Elisa! Love it!

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:20 AM

and before you say that YOU never did anything wrong towards an unbeliever, think back to how you’ve treated those who didn’t believe before.

Did you condemn them or just wash your hands of them and say, it’s their free will to not believe, but I sure am sorry they’re going to hell for it…

but I’m arrogant, smug and intolerant… LOL@hawk

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:23 AM

What about those who were slaughtered in the past because they didn’t believe?

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:18 AM

One, this isn’t twitter. You don’t need the @ Zekecorlain.

But, I’m glad you agree the majority of the murderous activity of the last century was under atheist regimes. detente.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:24 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:23 AM

I’ve never treated anyone intolerant in the name of my faith as you do in the name of atheism.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:26 AM

hawk,

You simply cannot ascribe the actions that people like Stalin, et al did in the name of their ideology of communism was because they were atheists… In fact, one could make a valid claim that since Stalin attended a Russian orthodox seminary (from 1894 to 1899) as a teenager in Tiflis, the dogmatic black or white outlook of the world influenced his subsequent actions. As the historian Alan Bullock in his book Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives (1991) explained:

The fact that it was a Church education helped to form the mind of a man who was to become known for his dogmatism and his propensity for seeing issues in absolute terms, in black and white. Anyone reading Stalin’s speeches and writings will notice their catechistic structure, the use of question and answer, the reduction of complex questions to a set of simplified formulas, the quoting of text to support his arguments. The same Church influence has been noted by biographers in his style of speaking or writing Russian: ‘declamatory and repetitive, with liturgical overtones.’

I don’t agree that their atheism was the cause or reason for what they did… As I said, atheism doesn’t inform their actions because all atheism is is the absence of theism.

Get it through your thick skull would you?

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:32 AM

Did you condemn them or just wash your hands of them and say, it’s their free will to not believe, but I sure am sorry they’re going to hell for it…

but I’m arrogant, smug and intolerant… LOL@hawk

Well, interesting here. Do you want it both ways? If I say I don’t care, I’m not being true to my faith. If I say I care, then I’m a religious busybody. But like I said, unlike you, I answer questions straight up. So … I don’t care if you’re saved or not. I don’t if anyone but the people I love are saved. I wouldn’t give a second thought about the salvation of someone like you. Pearls and all. But for what atheists demand of those of us who believe, it brings us closer to tolerance for one another if I assume a less Christian-like attitude like that, no? It should make you happy. Now we just have to figure out what it would take to get atheists to not care what we believe.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:33 AM

I’ve never treated anyone intolerant in the name of my faith as you do in the name of atheism.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:26 AM

LOL! Somehow I KNEW you’d say that hawk… Deny deny deny

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:34 AM

I’ve never treated anyone intolerant in the name of my faith as you do in the name of atheism.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:26 AM

Oh, and my words really hurt people bro… as opposed to the things Christians did to unbelievers in the past.

YOU may not have strung anyone up before, but your condemning of them to hell because they don’t believe what you believe is still arrogant, smug and intolerant.

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:35 AM

Get it through your thick skull would you?

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:32 AM

Am I rude to you? Please keep it on an adult level or this conversation is over. If I wanted to talk with a child I’d, I’d talk with the neighbor kids. And the discussion of the atheists of the last century is over. I can’t offer anything to make it more true. I stand on what I’ve already posted. Sounds as thought you might admire them a bit. I’m out at my land for the day. Learn some manners and I’ll look at the thread later.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:37 AM

atheist care what others believe because your religion INFORMS your choices in life.

The eschatological story wrapped up in Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions is one where everything ends in a blaze of fire. Armageddon.

And Christians will see this coming and think that they will get to see Jesus come down to rapture them up into heaven, and they’ll do little to nothing to stop it!

In case, you didn’t notice, we have nuclear weapons nowadays, and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy when and if that dreadful day comes.

Step back from the precipice.

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:39 AM

LOL! Somehow I KNEW you’d say that hawk… Deny deny deny

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:34 AM

I knew you’d say that I would say that, somehow.

but your condemning of them to hell because they don’t believe what you believe is still arrogant, smug and intolerant.

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:35 AM

Perhaps you miss where I repeatedly say, I don’t care what happens to you.

Gotta go. Got some trees to clear. Under a clearing blue sky here. We prayed for a break in the weather. :-)

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:40 AM

I stand on what I’ve already posted. Sounds as thought you might admire them a bit. I’m out at my land for the day. Learn some manners and I’ll look at the thread later.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 10:37 AM

Hawk: once again, I thank you for having the fortitude to debate this fellow, Sauer. If I may say so, his tone sounds rather…what to call it? A whole string of words come to mind, but the mildest I can suggest is off-base. It’s hard to fathom anyone being so mean-spirited as Sauer in a dialogue, but my hat’s off to you for sticking it out….

chai on September 24, 2011 at 10:41 AM

Sounds as thought you might admire them a bit

THAT is a rude comment. OBVIOUSLY I don’t subscribe to communistic thoughts like they did and I never would have condoned the torture and killing that they did in the name of it.

As if my comment earlier in the thread about seeing it as my duty to stop the killing of Jesus if I was present when and if that event ever took place doesn’t show where I stand on killing other people…

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:44 AM

@hawk

You don’t care what happens to me? Not very Christian of you is it? Sounds rather selfish if you ask me.

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM

Elisa on September 23, 2011 at 9:28 PM

I’ve seen that and pardon me assuming you were a female.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 9:15 AM

I am a female. lol So that’s fine with me.

Elisa on September 24, 2011 at 12:21 PM

That’s a good one Elisa! Love it!

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:20 AM

Glad you enjoyed it too. Have a good weekend everyone.

I guess my joke post was confusing because I was quoting the email I got. I am a girl.

Elisa on September 24, 2011 at 12:23 PM

@hawk

You don’t care what happens to me? Not very Christian of you is it? Sounds rather selfish if you ask me.

SauerKraut537 on September 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM

Like I said. It’s a double edged sword. If I care and talk to you about it, I’m imposing my faith on you. If I don’t I’m “rather selfish”. It’s the position people like you put Christians in. It’s a victory for your side. Don’t complain, celebrate. I’ll face whatever consequences that rationale causes me. But I didn’t say I was a perfect Christian. Far from it. And probably my weakest point is I do not care to witness unless I am asked about my faith. And I certainly wouldn’t take it as a challenge to witness to someone like you. You live, to engage someone like me and then run to one of your other sites you comment on and tell your atheist comrades about, “The Christian you made look like an ass in front of (insert number) people.” It is your social network. Well, that and Asian P0rn.

But you only said that as a way of insulting me from a different angle. If I can’t be persuaded to leave my faith by someone like you, make a comment about what a bad Christians I am to begin with. And you people call us judgmental?

Do you really take Christians to be as stupid as you assert them to be? The only difference between you and me is that I still believe. Considering that you claim to have been saved three times. I also believe that God and science exist together. That God is the master of Science.

I don’t think God’s hand lifts my helicopter. The Physics of Aerodynamics does. But I know for a fact he’s protected me on more occasions than I can count. While helicopters all around me were getting the shit shot out of them, I’ve never taken a single rounds in 1700 combat hours flown. Not one round. I have felt the presence of God. If I were raised in an atheist society like we had talked about earlier, the revelation of his existence would have come to me regardless. I don’t just love God, I feel him with me. I’ve felt The Holy Spirit from the day I was saved. And where God has answered my prayers I know he’s used me and people around me for his needs.

This exchange took place between my unit and a 12-13 year old Ecuadorian girl who had come to the ground breaking of two clinics and a school with her Mother in San Lorenzo, Ecuador. NC National Guardsmen Engineers had been sent there to built them and they had requested CASEVAC Support and we were assigned a summer to stay with them out of Howard AFB and provide that. But I asked this girl this question. My Spanish is fading, but it went something like this.

“Hola Princesa, son usted excitado para ver el nuevo principio escolar.”

Almost without a hesitation, she answered me as if I was listening to an adult. She pointed at us and the NC Engineers and said this.

Dios le envió hombres y mujeres y sus helicópteros como una respuesta a nuestros rezos. Dios envió a los ingenieros para construir nuestra escuela y clínicas como una respuesta a nuestros rezos. Usted es un instrumento de Dios.

I asked her Mother if she had been told to say that. She simply said the Lord talks through her and smiled at us.

I cannot, not believe.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 9:41 PM

chai on September 24, 2011 at 10:41 AM

I’m not sure it’s something worthy of thank, but I appreciate the sentiment.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 9:54 PM

I am a girl.

Elisa on September 24, 2011 at 12:23 PM

lol, Reread both, I got it. It does serve to bolster my opinion that Conservative women, that Christian women have been our standard bearers for quite some time now were we men have been stumbling. We men have a lot of catching up to do.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 9:58 PM

lol, Reread both, I got it. It does serve to bolster my opinion that Conservative women, that Christian women have been our standard bearers for quite some time now were we men have been stumbling. We men have a lot of catching up to do.

hawkdriver on September 24, 2011 at 9:58 PM

Awww. . . that’s very kind, but I think you guys are doing just fine. Your good work here is testimony to that. My husband goes to daily Mass and prays for his family. All of us together, men and women blessed with faith and given the grace to be His Body here on Earth.

God bless you, my friend. God bless all here. God bless our country.

Elisa on September 25, 2011 at 12:45 AM

PS I’m always impresssed when Americans know how to speak Spanish so well. My parents are Spanish and I spent 3 summers in Spain. So for me it’s like a second mother tongue (spoken, I’m bad at writing). But if I had to learn it from scratch, or any other language, I don’t think I could do it.

Elisa on September 25, 2011 at 12:48 AM

Elisa on September 25, 2011 at 12:48 AM

My wife an a Spanish/Japanese America. (Mom and Dad met during the occupation of Japan). She always regrets not trying to learn one or the other. Her Daddy was an Army NCO and “guided” the family, to speak English primarily.

What does truly amaze me about the children of most Spanish speaking countries is the lack of “baby-talk”. For the most part, they talk very mature.

hawkdriver on September 25, 2011 at 1:02 AM

Hawk,
I couldn’t care less what faith you have and I’m not trying to pin you into a corner so that I’m up a point. Your faith doesn’t matter, it’s just faith, it’s not like its truth. Contrary to what you may believe, faith is not truth.

As for me bragging on other websites, use that Google-fu you exhibited earlier and look through my posts that you can nail down and just see if I go brag to others. I honestly cannot remember when or if I ever did, pretty sure I haven’t/didn’t though and I’m not sure I’ve ever heard other atheists bragging about it either. They may mention conversations they’ve had recently with family and friends after announcing their lack of belief but that’s as much as I’ve come across.

I thank you for your service in the military, but just because you never took a shot in 1700 hours, that doesn’t mean the hand of god was protecting you. That’s just an example of an invalid causal connection to believe so. This is kind of like the example I gave earlier where when you have a plane crash and 1 person out of 100 survives. When interviewing the survivors family and friends, it’s considered a miracle, but to those who lost lives it doesn’t appear to be much of a miracle now does it?

Thanks for the chat, if you’re still here and catch this last entry.

I’m thankful to you and many others for the service you give your country and if I didn’t have as many physical limitations as I do (probably wouldn’t pass physical due to muscular neurological disorder), I would have done much the same when I was younger.

SauerKraut537 on September 25, 2011 at 8:05 PM

What does truly amaze me about the children of most Spanish speaking countries is the lack of “baby-talk”. For the most part, they talk very mature.

hawkdriver on September 25, 2011 at 1:02 AM

That’s so true. I would love talking to a 3 year old and they would say,”Pues, claro. . . .”

We always spoke English in my house except when my parents argued or we had company. lol And my grandmother came when she was 24 and worked in sewing factories and learned Portuguese and Italian there, but still spoke broken English. And she always felt bad her English wasn’t good. Even though she worked her fingers to the bone and had no TV or time to learn proper English and got along fine shopping in stores with no bilingual signs.

My mother went to Kindergarten only knowing Spanish and my father-in-law went to Kindergarten only knowing Italian. They learned immediately with no bilingual education and were both honor students.

My father came from Spain when he was 19. For a month he ate pancakes every morning because he didn’t know how to say eggs in English. So he would say “hotcakes” in Idaho. His older brothers and lots of other Basques went to Idaho.

He lived. No problem. Didn’t need everything in Spanish. He learned English quickly.

One of my pet peeves is having voting ballots in other languages. If they can’t read someone’s name in English and tell that President means Presidente, then they shouldn’t be voting.

Elisa on September 25, 2011 at 10:46 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 25, 2011 at 8:05 PM

I hope that didn’t take long to type. Really, most of what you write is pure opinion and I’m weary of it.

One of my pet peeves is having voting ballots in other languages. If they can’t read someone’s name in English and tell that President means Presidente, then they shouldn’t be voting.

Elisa on September 25, 2011 at 10:46 PM

Most friends I have from other countries feel this very way. I have a lot of Cuba and Pureto Rican friends form the military and their familes are all about assimilating. Great Patriots.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 8:06 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 25, 2011 at 8:05 PM

And BTW, I and many like me, (friends) have served with pretty serious physical handicaps. I was born with club feet and had many operations as an infant. I am still flat-footed and pidgeon-toed. I had a study of doctors opinions I had to take to the recruiters when I was 17 to convince them I could still serve. My induction was for the most part provisional until I sucessfully completed a PT Test in Basic. I have friends that have served with everything from cancer to Bells Palsey. I have friends that are still serving with amputated extremities.

You have to really want it.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 8:13 AM

Mild form of muscular dystrophy called muscular mytonia. Wouldn’t have made it. Problem with fast twitch muscles and muscle lock up on me all the time. It’s like a misfire of neurons when I engage fast twitch muscles.

And yes, it’s my opinion that theistic gods aren’t real, but its an educated opinion based off human psychology, history, anthropology, many other factors come into play with my opinion. It’s based off something that we can gauge and/or measure as opposed to your faith.

Your faith which is defined as “belief that is not based on proof.” Because NO religion is based on proof. They are all based on anecdotal evidence which doesn’t cut it in the realm of facts vs fiction.

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 8:56 AM

and no, it doesn’t take me that long to type… ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 8:57 AM

But are you denying this as well? That this doesn’t happen?

“This is kind of like the example I gave earlier where when you have a plane crash and 1 person out of 100 survives. When interviewing the survivors family and friends, it’s considered a miracle, but to those who lost lives it doesn’t appear to be much of a miracle now does it?

Do you deny that the survivors family almost always call it a miracle, and do you deny that the families of those who lost loved ones usually don’t call it a miracle?

seriously?

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 9:07 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 8:56 AM

I’ve seen proof. You read theories. I accept science with the caveat that God is the master of it while you try to reinvent political scince from the last century to conform to your debate with no other purpose but to win your debate points; whether you accually believe what you’re saying or not.

I’m not sure you’d get any prizes here for critical thinking.

Sorry about your physical ailment. Are you sure you have not just got back and forth with it, both trying to get close to God for remedy and then shaking your fist at him because it never came? I’m only asking becasue of the three saves and all. it would be understandble for you to be going throguh that. And BTW, IAW AR 40-501, you could still serve with that malady if you could demonstrate success in common tasks. The military isn’t for everyone though.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 9:09 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 9:07 AM

Canards and strawmen. I don’t presuppose why God saves one person and allows another to go home. You ask questions as if people were God himself.

Maybe instead of trying to change everyone else, you should look inward to see if there isn’t some unhappiness in your life that you’re trying to compensate for. Well, compensation or reaction formation I’d say. But one way or the other, you sound like a very unhappy person.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 9:15 AM

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 9:15 AM

Why do you give up the ability to suppose when something like that happens? You don’t presuppose why god saves one person and allows another to die? If you can’t do that then why call him god. It’s just a random chance that the one survived while all the others died in that crash.

It’s like you’re saying, “I can’t explain it, but here’s the explanation, god did it and I don’t/can’t speak for god”

You’re a military man, and you know bullshit when you see it don’t you? Saying I can’t explain it, therefore here’s the explanation is just bullshit hawk.

AGAIN with the pop psychology by trying to figure out if I’m happy or unhappy. I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and I’m proselytizing about my epiphany moment when I finally free’d myself from religion. I want the same for you and everyone else. Freedom from religion.

You don’t HAVE to have religion to be happy. Many people like myself live just fine without it. Not happy ALL the time but who ever is?

Religion is just a fairy tale that allows us to “accept the physical decline, and eventual decay of our bodies”, and believing that we have souls that lift off our corporeal bodies when we die is the figurative manner in which we continue on once we’re dead…

It’s a fairy tale. It’s mythology. Plain and simple.

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 9:31 AM

Why do you give up the ability to suppose when something like that happens?

Because I’m not God. As a matter of fact, it’s the atheists biggest condemnation of believers in that they say we believe we speak for God. You want us to be both ways to fit your narrow-minded meme of us.

You don’t presuppose why god saves one person and allows another to die?

No, I accept it. I’m not God.

If you can’t do that then why call him god.

To believe I’d have a clearer or better opinion than God on why one thing should happen one way or another would be a bigger argument of “Why call him God.” Or really, why have God at all if I’m more just or intelligent. Your srgument really, are making less sense as you continue this.

It’s just a random chance that the one survived while all the others died in that crash.

Your opinion. It’s a statement you can’t prove.

It’s like you’re saying, “I can’t explain it, but here’s the explanation, god did it and I don’t/can’t speak for god”

Or me just sayin, I’m not God.

You’re a military man, and you know bullshit when you see it don’t you?

I haven’t bought anything you’re selling if that’s what you mean.

Saying I can’t explain it, therefore here’s the explanation is just bullshit hawk.

I didn’t say I can’t explain it. I don’t try. I’m not God.

AGAIN with the pop psychology by trying to figure out if I’m happy or unhappy. I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and I’m proselytizing about my epiphany moment when I finally free’d myself from religion. I want the same for you and everyone else. Freedom from religion.

You mean your “six” epiphanies? You’ve got more epiphanies than Carter has liver pills. And your use of the word again is quite a bastardization. But I’ll give in to your unlearned use of it and accept that you mean it to be losing your religion also. So, six epiphanies. A happy person would not, IMHO, be “that” epiphany riddled.

You don’t HAVE to have religion to be happy. Many people like myself live just fine without it. Not happy ALL the time but who ever is?

I do not agrue that you don’t need religion to be happy. Mark the calendar because it is the first thing you’ve ever written that I agree with. It mean’s … nothing to me. Absolutely nothing to any Christian, but you are quite correct.

Religion is just a fairy tale that allows us to “accept the physical decline, and eventual decay of our bodies”, and believing that we have souls that lift off our corporeal bodies when we die is the figurative manner in which we continue on once we’re dead…

It’s a fairy tale. It’s mythology. Plain and simple.

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 9:31 AM

Your opinion.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 9:49 AM

Your “arguments” are making less sense …

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 9:50 AM

SauronKraut537, you should work to outlaw religion through legislation and establishing laws. It’s the best chance you have of achieving your goal of ridding the world of it. (But, you’re not imposing your morality on us, lol) But try to legislate it. Because you don’t debate it very well.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 9:58 AM

Just a pet peeve of mine… this verse has to do with the Jewish system of justice, discipline and the requirement of the testimony of witnesses… it’s not about fellowship.

We need to change the words of that Paul Noel Stookey song “There Is Love” to “There Is Discipline.”

mankai on September 22, 2011 at 11:00 AM

I think that you are confusing the passage before (Matt 18:19 NASB) “that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.” But because verse 20 begins with “gar”, it is given as the underlying cause–or more general rule. So Jesus is saying that two agree and the Father answers, it is because he is their in their midst when gathered in his name. So his physical presence is the more general rule, and implies all the things that his physical presence would imply, including fellowship.

In fact, the clauses cascade outwards. It recommends the “binding” as a last resort in Christian discipline, but that is because 1) of the relationship between what is bound on earth and heaven, and relies on the more general case that the Father will grant what two agree upon, and that relies, Jesus says, is because when two are gathered in his name, he is there. So even though it is introduced in the context of Christian discipline, each are successively wider principles, demonstrating the operating principles.

That’s my argument anyway.

Axeman on September 26, 2011 at 10:37 AM

Because I’m not God. As a matter of fact, it’s the atheists biggest condemnation of believers in that they say we believe we speak for God. You want us to be both ways to fit your narrow-minded meme of us.

You DO act like you speak for god. A god believer decided one day that they would write a book on things god said and PROPOSED that this was true. A lot of people decided it was because it contained a few wise sayings, but you DO act like you speak for god when you say that your morality is the right and true way to be.

If you have an idea on morality, propose it, but don’t say you have a god backing you up. Your morality can either sink or swim based on the merits of the morality. You don’t need a god backing you up. It’s either a good morality or it isn’t.

Look, your confusion is evident. I’m NOT saying that you can’t or shouldn’t believe in a god hawk. I’m just saying that the god you imagine, Yahweh (the Christian god) isn’t the god we all THINK exists. I’m saying you’re arrogant to believe in the god you believe in. I’m saying you’re smug in your safety net of belief where you think that BECAUSE you believe in this god and his sons sacrifice that you get to go to heaven. I’m saying that you’re intolerant of others who don’t believe in it because you deride their beliefs either passively by not saying anything and not trying to save them, or actively by telling them they’re destined for some hell of his making.

I’m not into legislating people’s beliefs hawk. I’d much rather persuade them of it, you can’t legislate things like that.

Where did you get 6 from 3? I said I went through three spiritual rebirths (born again moments) in my life where I rededicated my life to Jesus. I sense your doubts that that could happen but it happens all the time hawk. People rededicate their lives to Jesus, etc all the time. They see themselves going down a path that is contrary to his teachings and they redouble their efforts to be more Christlike.

I don’t get how you can’t see that as happening. The very definition of born again is In Christianity, born again refers to a “spiritual rebirth” (regeneration) of the human soul or spirit. Are you saying I couldn’t possibly have gone through that multiple times in my life?

My 3 “rebirths” happened over 30 + years hawk. That doesn’t necessarily equate to unhappiness.

It’s not my opinion that the bible is a fairy tale hawk, it’s a fact.

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM

Let me put it to you this way hawk…

God is the most perfect being right? I know you’ll use the general copout of saying that you can’t fathom the mind of god but if you were a perfect being and you wanted your creations to worship you like we’re told the Christian god wants, how would you go about letting everyone know?

Would you “invade” everyone’s mind so that they know and there is no ambiguity, or would you have your adherents write a book in the Bronze Age of humanities existence? Would you speak only through select individuals as we see in the bible or would you do the easiest thing and let everyone know all at once so that these creations don’t fight over it?

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 12:44 PM

it’s funny… people like you will say that you can’t fathom the mind of god and wouldn’t presume to speak for him but you’ll listen to other people who say your god is the one true god (your priest or pastor/whatever).

What gives them the power to speak for god or try to discern/interpret the mind of god but not you?

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 12:47 PM

You DO act like you speak for god.

No, I don’t.

A god believer decided one day that they would write a book on things god said and PROPOSED that this was true.

I thought you knew the Bible. Ity was written by many people that God handed his word down to over thousands of years.

A lot of people decided it was because it contained a few wise sayings, but you DO act like you speak for god when you say that your morality is the right and true way to be.

You assume a lot about me. But this is the crux of it isn’t it? No matter how you try to gloss it over, it is about the morality. This, is why you have to destroy Christianity. You can’t live with the morality. I would venture a guess that you’re gay. I would also venture that you are indeed the same person who has debated me before about this entire line or reasoning, but you did it under a different screen name and a different background story of yourself. So let’s not be coy, you’re not trying to free anyone of their shackles but yourself by trying to destroy what I believe.

If you have an idea on morality, propose it, but don’t say you have a god backing you up. Your morality can either sink or swim based on the merits of the morality. You don’t need a god backing you up. It’s either a good morality or it isn’t.

Lots of talk about morality. huh? I thought you were trying to save me from my faith. Hogwash. It’s always about the morality.

Look, your confusion is evident.

You’re the one who sounds confused.

I’m NOT saying that you can’t or shouldn’t believe in a god hawk.

Then go the fuck home and leave me along. That, would pretty much end the conversation.

I’m just saying that the god you imagine, Yahweh (the Christian god) isn’t the god we all THINK exists.

Your opinion.

I’m saying you’re arrogant to believe in the god you believe in.

How do you know what I believe, do you think that you’re God? Arrogant.

I’m saying you’re smug in your safety net of belief where you think that BECAUSE you believe in this god and his sons sacrifice that you get to go to heaven.

I’m not smug. I’m confident in my salvation. Sorry you lost yours.

I’m saying that you’re intolerant of others who don’t believe in it because you deride their beliefs either passively by not saying anything and not trying to save them, or actively by telling them they’re destined for some hell of his making.

I’m very tolerant of many faiths. I have Muslim friends all over the world. I just sent some of my artwork to two Jordanian pilots who were students of mine at one time with whom I befriended. We call each others brothers of different faiths. I consider Jews to be my sister faith. What pray tell am I intolerant about? You, on the other hand, are intolerant of Christians.

I’m not into legislating people’s beliefs hawk. I’d much rather persuade them of it, you can’t legislate things like that.

You would if you could.

Where did you get 6 from 3? I said I went through three spiritual rebirths (born again moments) in my life where I rededicated my life to Jesus.

I have to ask you again, do you just forget what you write or are you trying to change what you said, not thinking that the other commenter remembers what you said or would go back and just look? This is the comment.

I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and I’m proselytizing about my epiphany moment when I finally free’d myself from religion.

You used epiphany in the sense that occurred when you “lost” your faith. The origin of epiphany is gaining faith. So, you have come and departed from the Lord in six separate events. Please don’t think you can just BS your points with me.

I sense your doubts that that could happen but it happens all the time hawk.

I don’t care whether it did or not. I discuss it with you in the spirit that you said it happened. Six times.

People rededicate their lives to Jesus, etc all the time.

Rededicating is not the same as being saved again. And again and again.

They see themselves going down a path that is contrary to his teachings and they redouble their efforts to be more Christlike.

Even folks that backslide are still saved.

I don’t get how you can’t see that as happening.

I’d like to know who told you you can be saved more than once.

The very definition of born again is In Christianity, born again refers to a “spiritual rebirth” (regeneration) of the human soul or spirit. Are you saying I couldn’t possibly have gone through that multiple times in my life?

Sure, but you can only be saved once.

My 3 “rebirths” happened over 30 + years hawk. That doesn’t necessarily equate to unhappiness.

You were happy going back and forth?

It’s not my opinion that the bible The Bible is a fairy tale hawk, it’s a fact.

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM

No, it’s your opinion. But now that we’ve determined that you problem is the morality and not trying to help anyone, it really does shed a new light on your frame of mind.

it’s funny… people like you will say that you can’t fathom the mind of god and wouldn’t presume to speak for him but you’ll listen to other people who say your god is the one true god (your priest or pastor/whatever).

What gives them the power to speak for god or try to discern/interpret the mind of god but not you?

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 12:47 PM

You know what else is funny Dakine, that the more I read you opinions of me, the better I feel about myself. This entire exchange has done wonders for my self esteem. To answer you question though, men of the cloth have commited more time than I to their understanding of scripture. And except for a very liberal pastor from a United Church of Christ church I had attended, I’ve never heard one preach something I knew not to be in The Bible.

Look, do you have anything at all compelling to offer? The thread has rolled over and I’m if anything, happier to be what and who I am after three days of this thing going back and forth and just knowing that I’m not you. Otherwise, it’s just a game now to get the last word in.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 8:26 PM

You DO act like you speak for god.

No, I don’t.

A god believer decided one day that they would write a book on things god said and PROPOSED that this was true.

I thought you knew the Bible. Ity was written by many people that God handed his word down to over thousands of years.

A lot of people decided it was because it contained a few wise sayings, but you DO act like you speak for god when you say that your morality is the right and true way to be.

You assume a lot about me. But this is the crux of it isn’t it? No matter how you try to gloss it over, it is about the morality. This, is why you have to destroy Christianity. You can’t live with the morality. I would venture a guess that you’re gay. I would also venture that you are indeed the same person who has debated me before about this entire line or reasoning, but you did it under a different screen name and a different background story of yourself. So let’s not be coy, you’re not trying to free anyone of their shackles but yourself by trying to destroy what I believe.

If you have an idea on morality, propose it, but don’t say you have a god backing you up. Your morality can either sink or swim based on the merits of the morality. You don’t need a god backing you up. It’s either a good morality or it isn’t.

Lots of talk about morality. huh? I thought you were trying to save me from my faith. Hogwash. It’s always about the morality.

Look, your confusion is evident.

You’re the one who sounds confused.

I’m NOT saying that you can’t or shouldn’t believe in a god hawk.

Then go the fu<k home and leave me alone. That, would pretty much end the conversation.

I’m just saying that the god you imagine, Yahweh (the Christian god) isn’t the god we all THINK exists.

Your opinion.

I’m saying you’re arrogant to believe in the god you believe in.

How do you know what I believe, do you think that you’re God? Arrogant.

I’m saying you’re smug in your safety net of belief where you think that BECAUSE you believe in this god and his sons sacrifice that you get to go to heaven.

I’m not smug. I’m confident in my salvation. Sorry you lost yours.

I’m saying that you’re intolerant of others who don’t believe in it because you deride their beliefs either passively by not saying anything and not trying to save them, or actively by telling them they’re destined for some hell of his making.

I’m very tolerant of many faiths. I have Muslim friends all over the world. I just sent some of my artwork to two Jordanian pilots who were students of mine at one time with whom I befriended. We call each others brothers of different faiths. I consider Jews to be my sister faith. What pray tell am I intolerant about? You, on the other hand, are intolerant of Christians.

I’m not into legislating people’s beliefs hawk. I’d much rather persuade them of it, you can’t legislate things like that.

You would if you could.

Where did you get 6 from 3? I said I went through three spiritual rebirths (born again moments) in my life where I rededicated my life to Jesus.

I have to ask you again, do you just forget what you write or are you trying to change what you said, not thinking that the other commenter remembers what you said or would go back and just look? This is the comment.

I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and I’m proselytizing about my epiphany moment when I finally free’d myself from religion.

You used epiphany in the sense that occurred when you “lost” your faith. The origin of epiphany is gaining faith. So, you have come and departed from the Lord in six separate events. Please don’t think you can just BS your points with me.

I sense your doubts that that could happen but it happens all the time hawk.

I don’t care whether it did or not. I discuss it with you in the spirit that you said it happened. Six times.

People rededicate their lives to Jesus, etc all the time.

Rededicating is not the same as being saved again. And again and again.

They see themselves going down a path that is contrary to his teachings and they redouble their efforts to be more Christlike.

Even folks that backslide are still saved.

I don’t get how you can’t see that as happening.

I’d like to know who told you you can be saved more than once.

The very definition of born again is In Christianity, born again refers to a “spiritual rebirth” (regeneration) of the human soul or spirit. Are you saying I couldn’t possibly have gone through that multiple times in my life?

Sure, but you can only be saved once.

My 3 “rebirths” happened over 30 + years hawk. That doesn’t necessarily equate to unhappiness.

You were happy going back and forth?

It’s not my opinion that the bible The Bible is a fairy tale hawk, it’s a fact.

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM

No, it’s your opinion. But now that we’ve determined that your problem is the morality and not trying to help anyone, it really does shed a new light on your frame of mind.

it’s funny… people like you will say that you can’t fathom the mind of god and wouldn’t presume to speak for him but you’ll listen to other people who say your god is the one true god (your priest or pastor/whatever).

What gives them the power to speak for god or try to discern/interpret the mind of god but not you?

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 12:47 PM

You know what else is funny Dakine, that the more I read you opinions of me, the better I feel about myself. This entire exchange has done wonders for my self esteem. To answer you question though, men of the cloth have commited more time than I to their understanding of scripture. And except for a very liberal pastor from a United Church of Christ church I had attended, I’ve never heard one preach something I knew not to be in The Bible.

Look, do you have anything at all compelling to offer? The thread has rolled over and I’m if anything, happier to be what and who I am after three days of this thing going back and forth and just knowing that I’m not you. Otherwise, it’s just a game now to get the last word in.

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 8:28 PM

hawkdriver on September 26, 2011 at 8:26 PM

I thought you knew the Bible. Ity was written by many people that God handed his word down to over thousands of years.

It ALL started with one person doing it. The rest of them just added to it, but you’re wrong to think that god handed his word down. They (Bedouins and shepherds) made the crap up as they went along and scabbed stories and myths from neighboring civilizations.

You assume a lot about me. But this is the crux of it isn’t it? No matter how you try to gloss it over, it is about the morality. This, is why you have to destroy Christianity. You can’t live with the morality. I would venture a guess that you’re gay. I would also venture that you are indeed the same person who has debated me before about this entire line or reasoning, but you did it under a different screen name and a different background story of yourself. So let’s not be coy, you’re not trying to free anyone of their shackles but yourself by trying to destroy what I believe.

Quit fantasizing hawk. Your conspiracy theory side is coming out a bit heavy. I’m not gay (married with 2 kids). Have no idea what you’re referring to when you say you’ve debated me before under another name, and I AM trying to free you from the mind forged manacles that are religion. I’m not on Satans side in trying to dissuade you and others of your beliefs. I’m freeing your mind. As for living with the Christian morality, all of the good moralities that your religion espouses are found in other religions, and even non religions like buddhism and confucianism. The Analects of Confuscious were written long before any of the Judaic writings came onto the scene. The Upanishad has a lot of the same moralities that are present in Christian teachings. As I said before, they all scabbed off each other, and it all started with one person who came up with the original idea that lasted.

Lots of talk about morality. huh? I thought you were trying to save me from my faith. Hogwash. It’s always about the morality.

There are good moralities in all religions, and there are immoral dogmas and rituals associated with all of them. Human/”deity” sacrifice in my former one being especially reprehensible. To think that I used to, and you still rely on human sacrifice for your salvation.

There is nothing that you need saving from.

I’m very tolerant of many faiths. I have Muslim friends all over the world. I just sent some of my artwork to two Jordanian pilots who were students of mine at one time with whom I befriended. We call each others brothers of different faiths. I consider Jews to be my sister faith. What pray tell am I intolerant about? You, on the other hand, are intolerant of Christians.

I bet when/if your friends turned on you your opinion would change. Muslims are allowed to lie to kafir. Look, I’m intolerant of all religions hawk, not just Christianity. As I said before, I’m an equal opportunity offender when it comes to religions. YOU may not personally be intolerant but I’m speaking as a whole when it comes to Christianty vs Islam, etc. When they smuggle a nuke into one of our cities, fundamentalist Christianity will explode in America and it’ll be Armageddon… The eschatological elements tied up in the Abrahamic faiths are key. It’s followers have spoken about these times with yearning almost. Fundamentalist Christians think that if they can just cram enough Jews back into the holy land and cause a wider war with Islam that it will fulfill the prophecies and they’ll get to see Jesus floating down out of the clouds. It’ll be a self fulfilling prophecy when if nukes start flying (after they smuggle one in).

You would if you could. (legislate religion out of people’s lives)

Wrong-o ole buddy-o. I wouldn’t

I have to ask you again, do you just forget what you write or are you trying to change what you said, not thinking that the other commenter remembers what you said or would go back and just look? This is the comment.

quoted from me I’m happier than I’ve ever been, and I’m proselytizing about my epiphany moment when I finally free’d myself from religion.

You used epiphany in the sense that occurred when you “lost” your faith. The origin of epiphany is gaining faith. So, you have come and departed from the Lord in six separate events. Please don’t think you can just BS your points with me.

Epiphany using the second definition of it which means a moment of sudden understanding or revelation, so I had three born again moments plus an epiphany when realizing the madness of religious adherence. Taken in aggregate, that’s 4 big spiritual moments in my life… NOT 6 like you said. It’s almost like a hand of cards, 3 born agains and 1 epiphany.

LOL

You know what else is funny Dakine, that the more I read you opinions of me, the better I feel about myself. This entire exchange has done wonders for my self esteem. To answer you question though, men of the cloth have commited more time than I to their understanding of scripture. And except for a very liberal pastor from a United Church of Christ church I had attended, I’ve never heard one preach something I knew not to be in The Bible.

Look, do you have anything at all compelling to offer? The thread has rolled over and I’m if anything, happier to be what and who I am after three days of this thing going back and forth and just knowing that I’m not you. Otherwise, it’s just a game now to get the last word in.

Aha! Back to Dakine… I could care less if you think I am him or not. I know I’m not though, but I’ll be sure to look he/she up and see if I can find your exchanges. I’m curious what the other me said to you? ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 11:09 PM

We can end anytime hawk. Like I said, I just enjoy the debate. If not you today, then someone else once I’ve filled up the tanks again in a few weeks…

As for men of the cloth spending oodles of time studying the scripture… It’s wasted time other than reading it for history sake. There are lessons to be learned in it for sure, just like there are lessons to be learned in Harry Potter books.

Future man will look back on Christianity and all these other religions like you do today with all the other religions that have gone by the wayside.

I’m just trying to hurry things along.

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 26, 2011 at 11:29 PM

It ALL started with one person doing it. The rest of them just added to it, but you’re wrong to think that god handed his word down. They (Bedouins and shepherds) made the crap up as they went along and scabbed stories and myths from neighboring civilizations.

Okay, you conceded my point here, good.

Quit fantasizing hawk.

Your conspiracy theory side is coming out a bit heavy. I’m not gay (married with 2 kids).

LOL, I hit it right on the head didn’t I. You’re gay. Never even kissed a girl. And kids see you in the park and run in the other direction. Stranger danger and all.

Have no idea what you’re referring to when you say you’ve debated me before under another name, and I AM trying to free you from the mind forged manacles that are religion.

Yes you are and no, you’re not.

I’m not on Satans side in trying to dissuade you and others of your beliefs.

Didn’t say you were. Your comment are getting creepier though. Is this what you read out of what I write.

I’m freeing your mind.

lol, Is that what you think you’re doing.

As for living with the Christian morality, all of the good moralities that your religion espouses are found in other religions,

But you hate all religions.

and even non religions like buddhism and confucianism. The Analects of Confuscious were written long before any of the Judaic writings came onto the scene. The Upanishad has a lot of the same moralities that are present in Christian teachings. As I said before, they all scabbed off each other, and it all started with one person who came up with the original idea that lasted.

Cut and paste stuff you’ve pasted before. You f<cking forget how many times you say the same stupid things.

I bet when/if your friends turned on you your opinion would change.

I bet you have none. Friends I mean.

Muslims are allowed to lie to kafir….(Not going to link this whole hateful comment about our other faiths) You’ll try anything, huh?

May I say that you are really, really disturbed. I serously think you believe a lot of what you’re writting here. But, you’re a pycho hypocrite. In one comment you extoll the virtues of every other faith and in the next call them evil to pit them against each other. You are f<cking loser. My God man if I say I have friends from other faiths put that in the bank. Then don't change your narrative because it doesn't fit your attack on me as a Christian. Call me intolerant because Christians hate other faiths, oops, well then er, call his friends terrorists. Nothing you say works. You haven't been right once. Maybe not in your whole pathetic fantasy world with two kids and being an O6 in the Navy have you ever been right about anything.

Wrong-o ole buddy-o. I wouldn’t

Yeah you would. You know you would.

Epiphany using the second definition of it which means a moment of sudden understanding or revelation, so I had three born again moments plus an epiphany when realizing the madness of religious adherence. Taken in aggregate, that’s 4 big spiritual moments in my life… NOT 6 like you said. It’s almost like a hand of cards, 3 born agains and 1 epiphany.

LOL

You were born again three times. You cursed God three times. I guess you suck at political science and math. You’re wrong again and looking more stupid when you deny you make mistakes. Or lie, or whatever you’re trying to pull.

Aha! Back to Dakine… I could care less if you think I am him or not. I know I’m not though, but I’ll be sure to look he/she up and see if I can find your exchanges. I’m curious what the other me said to you?

Crap, did I type Dakine again?

We can end anytime hawk.

You can’t stop. You’re an addict.

Like I said, I just enjoy the debate.

Don’t you enjoy any pastimes you’re good at?

If not you today, then someone else once I’ve filled up the tanks again in a few weeks…

What tanks? nutters

As for men of the cloth spending oodles of time studying the scripture… It’s wasted time other than reading it for history sake. There are lessons to be learned in it for sure, just like there are lessons to be learned in Harry Potter books.

Yawn, more opinion.

Future man will look back on Christianity and all these other religions like you do today with all the other religions that have gone by the wayside.

I’m just trying to hurry things along.

You’ll never live to see it. Never. On your deathbed, this lifework of yours will be a failure. And at that time, no matter how you think you’ve progressed, I want you to remember one thing.

hawkdriver on September 27, 2011 at 12:39 AM

REALLY hawk? That’s the best you got? Call me gay and run off saying nah nah nah nah naaaah? LMFAO@hawk. Whatever bro.

I bet if I denied it you’d still believe it. Hell, you’ve already shown a propensity to believe in sky daddy’s, so it’s little surprise really.

You willfully misrepresent most all of what I’ve said because you have to. It’s like you haven’t heard half I’ve said or something. It’s the religious muffles/goggles and you can’t hear or see.

Delusion is a hard thing to overcome, I know hawk… It’s hard. We all have them across a wide spectrum of beliefs. Beliefs lead to delusions. Science leads to knowledge and understanding.

Your lame attempts to portray it to the contrary, I’m as happy as I can be with my life. This is just a thing I do on occasion when I see someone spouting religious nonsense, and your contention that my life will have been wasted is wrong. I’ve already reached several people, but even if I only reached one it would have been worth it, but I’ve already done that.

You watch, America will move the way of Europe in regards to religion. It is inevitable. All the polls show non religious/”spiritual”/atheist as the fastest growing segment of the population.

We are the Borg, you will be assimilated! (I always wanted to say that!) LOL!

You’ve already been defeated; you just don’t realize it yet, because no matter how you try to lay it out, you believe in a capricious, malevolent, petty god who will make me burn in hell because I don’t believe in his sacrifice anymore. You actively choose to follow a god who’s rendition of godliness is wagering with Jephthah, who said that whomever he saw first upon returning home he would sacrifice to the lord if only the lord would let him win his battle against the Ammonites. Did the lord relent like he did with Abraham and his son Isaac? Nope, he let Jephthah sacrifice his own daughter to the lord. What a guy!

Your god is an a$$hole. and those dollar signs are what your priest/pastor loves most. Hey, they have to make a living as well don’tcha know?

I’ll let you have the final word since you seem hell bent on it. ;-)

But I’ll be back…

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 1:53 AM

REALLY hawk? That’s the best you got? Call me gay and run off saying nah nah nah nah naaaah? LMFAO@hawk. Whatever bro.

You’ve been trashed and made to look like an idiot with your words at every turn. What is left to say?

I bet if I denied it you’d still believe it. Hell, you’ve already shown a propensity to believe in sky daddy’s, so it’s little surprise really.

You say whatever your argument needs at the moment. What would compel me to believe any one thing?

You willfully misrepresent most all of what I’ve said because you have to. It’s like you haven’t heard half I’ve said or something. It’s the religious muffles/goggles and you can’t hear or see.

You’re just repeating what I’m telling you now. You must be out of ideas.

Delusion is a hard thing to overcome, I know hawk… It’s hard. We all have them across a wide spectrum of beliefs. Beliefs lead to delusions. Science leads to knowledge and understanding.

Says the psychopath to the normal guy.

Your lame attempts to portray it to the contrary, I’m as happy as I can be with my life. This is just a thing I do on occasion when I see someone spouting religious nonsense, and your contention that my life will have been wasted is wrong. I’ve already reached several people, but even if I only reached one it would have been worth it, but I’ve already done that.

Fine. Go … be … happy with your life and leave everyone else alone.

You watch, America will move the way of Europe in regards to religion. It is inevitable. All the polls show non religious/”spiritual”/atheist as the fastest growing segment of the population.

It’ll never happen in your lifetime if it happens at all. I know young Christian people being reborn all the time.

We are the Borg, you will be assimilated! (I always wanted to say that!) LOL!

You’re not part of some group waiting to commit mass suicide together to catch the away ship are you? (F<cking, creepy man. Do you know how creepy and skin-crawling you are?)

You’ve already been defeated; you just don’t realize it yet, because no matter how you try to lay it out, you believe in a capricious, malevolent, petty god who will make me burn in hell because I don’t believe in his sacrifice anymore. You actively choose to follow a god who’s rendition of godliness is wagering with Jephthah, who said that whomever he saw first upon returning home he would sacrifice to the lord if only the lord would let him win his battle against the Ammonites. Did the lord relent like he did with Abraham and his son Isaac? Nope, he let Jephthah sacrifice his own daughter to the lord. What a guy!

You repeat my words. You have nothing else to say.

Your god is an a$$hole. and those dollar signs are what your priest/pastor loves most. Hey, they have to make a living as well don’tcha know?

I’d prefer to tithe to a man or woman of faith than most charities. You’d deny it but they spread good. (Well, I might donate if you were waiting on that alien ship)

I’ll let you have the final word since you seem hell bent on it. ;-)

But I’ll be back…

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 1:53 AM

Every last thing you say is a contridiction. (I’ll let you have the last word but I’ll be back)

I will note though that in your previous argument under that other screen name, it got less and less friendly as started to realize you lost the debate. I’m sure you and your frinds love it and high five each other when you talk about what you call God. Really, get help man. You are sad and near insanity. Not because you’re a Godless hater, but because you are pure Planter’s “nuts”.

Get help.

hawkdriver on September 27, 2011 at 7:59 AM

LOL! Coming from you… aw nevermind.

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 8:53 AM

LOL! Coming from you… aw nevermind.

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 8:53 AM

Most insane people really do think there’s something wrong with everyone else. Get help man.

And remember on that death bed, your work will be very much incomplete. You’ll have existed for nothing. And in thousands of years when people will still be praying to God, you’ll be, well, you just won’t be.

hawkdriver on September 27, 2011 at 9:03 AM

Most insane people really do think there’s something wrong with everyone else. Get help man.

And remember on that death bed, your work will be very much incomplete. You’ll have existed for nothing. And in thousands of years when people will still be praying to God, you’ll be, well, you just won’t be.

hawkdriver on September 27, 2011 at 9:03 AM

LOL!

Where exactly did I say I think that everyone else is wrong? I’m just saying the Christians, Muslims, Hindu’s, etc are wrong. There are over a billion and a half people on this planet that don’t believe in distinct gods, ie theistic gods.

You REALLY are a dumbass hawk. You don’t read what I’ve said and you clearly don’t think things through very well.

As I said before, I believe in a god, just not YOUR god any longer, and not a god that anyone thinks they know, including me.

I’m not going to pray to him to ease my worries like your pansy ass.

I’m not going to ask him for strength because strength comes from within.

I’m not going to pray to him for salvation because nobody needs salvation from anything, least of all a god like your god.

On my deathbed I’ll die with a smile, thinking of my children’s future without religion in their lives. The choice is theirs of course, but I’ll have hopefully inured them against religious dogma and inanity.

I’ll die knowing that the deathgrip of religion is losing it’s hold on its flocks.

Quit being a sheep hawk… haha sheephawk.. That’s your new name! ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 10:57 AM

The internet: Where religions come to die

Watch that and learn a little something. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 12:05 PM

Name calling s the only thing you have left?

You are utterly destroyed in his debate then. Just say uncle and take your weak-azz crap home.

hawkdriver on September 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM

Awwww hawk, pobrecito, no llores guey.

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM

And no, I have plenty left. Calling you a name doesn’t invalidate my arguments, and your contention that I’m utterly destroyed in his (sic) debate is vacuous and wishful thinking at best.

Just because I am “utterly destroyed” in YOUR mind doesn’t equate to truth, JUST like you believing in the Christian god doesn’t make it true.

I however have evidence to prove your faith untrue… Human psychology. All you have is wishful thinking and fallacious reasoning.

But as I said before, think what you will. You’ve already shown yourself susceptible to erroneous logic and thinking on THIS topic so I kind of expect it…

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 3:24 PM

And no, I have plenty left. Calling you a name doesn’t invalidate my arguments, and your contention that I’m utterly destroyed in his (sic) debate is vacuous and wishful thinking at best.

Yep, it appears as though your still have plenty. Long on insults and opinion and short any compelling or thoughtful conversation.

Just because I am “utterly destroyed” in YOUR mind doesn’t equate to truth, JUST like you believing in the Christian god doesn’t make it true.

Again, the debate was about atheist tyrants in the last century who murdered with reckless abondone. You’ve never offered anything substantive to even come close to a focus point of truth. You’re just plain wrong. Are really, stupid to keep pushing an argument you lost two days again.

I however have evidence to prove your faith untrue… Human psychology. All you have is wishful thinking and fallacious reasoning.

Yet you vacillate back and forth between saying you have been saved and then not and believe in some kind of God and then not. But mine is a fantasy. Put down the crack pipe.

But as I said before, think what you will. You’ve already shown yourself susceptible to erroneous logic and thinking on THIS topic so I kind of expect it…

I don’t need your f<cking permission to think what I will, but thanks for playing. Tell him what he's won, Johnny.

;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 3:24 PM

Is that wink your “sign”. It’s lame. So is asserting you have children that will see a Godless and faithless world.

PS, why do you use ellipses at the end of sentences? One would normally think since at the end od a sentence it indicates a pause, that you would have something else to say. Not that you have anything to say.

Listen, do yourself a favor and go argue with someone more your speed. Like … a four year old.

hawkdriver on September 27, 2011 at 7:33 PM

LOL@sheephawk again!

You didn’t win the argument about atheist tyrants hawk, only in your own mind.

History is riddled with religiously fueled wars and killings right up until the present day. By your logic I could use every Christian, Hindu, Muslim, (choose your religion) leader since the dawn of history as examples of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, et al killing other people in the names of their religion, and there have been more people who died as a result of theologically based wars than have been killed by these evil atheists of the 20th century. The 30 years war, fought between Protestants and Cahtolics in the 17th century, killed about 30% of the people in central Europe in what is now Germany, Austria, Poland, Hungary, The Czech Rebublic and Slovakia.

Did you know that there have been over 100,000,000,000 (100 billion) people who have lived since the dawn of humanity? They’ve died in child birth, from disease, from all kinds of things, and these atheistic regimes you rail on about are only very recent onto the scene… That means that there have been hundreds of millions to billions of people who have died in the name of god and country since the dawn of time. And it’s not like the religious deaths/wars stopped once atheism started to become more prevalent sheephawk. They continue today…

What those assholes (Pol Pot and Stalin) did had nothing whatsoever to do with their atheism.

Your logic is faulty because atheism is NOT a philosophy, ideology or belief system. It’s simply a lack of belief in a theistic deity. There is NO book of Atheist. There are NO Commandments handed down by a supernatural deity with atheism. There is NO supernatural agency that supposedly backs up the actions of an atheist. An atheist looks at the facts around them, rejects (based on no proof) the belief in a deity and makes decisions based on other motivating factors.

If I’m an atheist and I decide I hate my wife because she screwed around on me and decide to kill her, I didn’t kill her because I’m an atheist. I killed her because I hated her and I’m an a$$hole. Atheism didn’t motivate me to kill her. The God of Atheists didn’t tell a follower to write down that if my wife screws around on me that I’m allowed to stone her to death. I made that decision all on my own.

In other words, being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism as is being killed by a midget like being killed in the name of short people. There’s no denying that there are bad people who are atheists and bad people who are religious, but where atheism and religion diverge is that religion can be interpreted by some to back up their bad behavior where an atheist just acts badly.

Stalin and Pol Pot are examples of communist dictators, not atheists killing people based on dogma. In fact, while some believe Hitler was an atheist, he frequently used religion to back up his policies. In a 1933 speech, Hitler said:

We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

Hitler also stated:

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated.

Like my example above, Stalin and Pol Pot are examples of what happens when one person is given too much power. Very few people would argue that both men were bad people, but that doesn’t mean that atheism is what they based their agenda on. They based their agenda on the gathering of power and controlling the populace.

I believe in the god concept but I don’t accept any current renditions of this god. They’re clearly man made gods. IF you had any intellectual honesty you would admit that much, but I get it… You fear punishment from this god if you decide to stop believing.

Go put your adult depends diapers back on, practice not believing for a while and you’ll see you didn’t crap your pants. It’s not that hard sheephawk.

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 8:03 PM

LOL! I only argue with 3 and a half year olds like yourself. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 8:05 PM

But I’ll have one more rebuttal later on. Had one all typed out and I guess it went into moderation or IE flubbed the handoff. Basically though, your argument about atheists being responsible for all those deaths… By that logic I could argue that every death commited by religious folk over all of history is more. More later but you’re just flat wrong to blame those deaths on something that isn’t an ideology. Their atheism didn’t inform their choice to do what they did.

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 8:20 PM

One more note… The ONLY thing that changed in the last few hundred years or so is that we’ve gotten BETTER at killing each other, and from safe distances, etc.

While the numbers of people who suffered during WWII, and around those times, was a horrible thing, it’s NO more horrible than the person who is branded a witch and burned at the stake because a village of people were too superstitious and religion oriented WHILE taking literal the holy texts that were written hundreds to thousands of years before exhorting them (the believers) to stone them to death, burn them at the stake, etc… But it’s OK to believe in your god, who has such texts at the ready to deal with unbelievers and apostates, etc… Isn’t it?

You just lose sheephawk… Go put a fresh pair of underroos on, or depends… ;-)

SauerKraut537 on September 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM

What an invention of history. Pure fantasy and quite a waste of your time. Stalin and Pol Pot are examples of what happens when Atheists are given too much power. Atheists! Can’t believe you wasted that much effort on something that I’ve already proved. You lost this argument several times now. You must be embarrassed you Moron.

You really are quite stupid.

You need to also change the sophomoric name you’ve picked. You left Hawk in. Any name with Hawk ends up being pleasing to me. Remember, my father in Heaven is considered a shepherd by us. I could just as easily be a sheephawk driving a Blackhawk. You remember that filling up those drinks for your customers todays at the restaurant. And please keep your hand clean if you’re on the burger line today too.

lol, f<cking moron. Stupid, halfwitted, shallow and possessive of little real original thought. Can you keep this up for two more days?

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 7:49 AM

LOL, I really hope you “do” have this material in documents for you to cut and paste from. I just laugh at the length of stuff you type, just for me.

lol

I’m winning.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 7:51 AM

LOL Well, wow! You got it?! Yes, Stalin and Pol Pot ARE examples of atheists who were given too much power, just like Torquemada and the ancient popes were examples of Christians who were given too much power, and Saladin was an example of a Muslim given too much power.

Brilliant! BUT, the common theme is that none of them did what they did BECAUSE of their atheism or theism… right?

F*cking moron. Thanks for proving my point.

You lost.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 9:01 AM

But of course, you’ll just deny deny deny. ;-) You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

Man I LOVE psychology sheephawk! You’re nothing but a prime example of a person stuck in a confirmation bias. Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Hence they can lead to poor decisions, like your ignoring the evidence put forward by me.

You’re guilty of belief perseverance, for example when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false, and you’re guilty of illusory correlation, in which people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations, ie your claim that Stalin and Pol Pot did what they did because they were atheists

You HAVE to deny all that I say because if you even give an inch you know you’ve lost. THUS all the bluster on your part and claims that I’ve written a fantasy that goes against history.

Have fun in your delusions believing I’m a burger flipper. It has about as much truth to is as your belief in your god. ;-)

I’ve had fun hawk but I tire of your inanity and ignorance of history, and inability to process information correctly.

Some people just can’t be reached, but I knew that going in.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 9:19 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 9:01 AM

Finally got it? F<cking moron, it was my original argument and it was I that had to convince you that. Do you forget what you write?

And you're the f<cking idiot that likes to make the points that Christians are bad because you claim multitudes have suffered under them. I'm just following you brilliant line of reasoning. Atheists are worse even if one of your stories about Christians were true.

Loser. Denying loser. Pathetic and insane.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 9:28 AM

I’ve had fun hawk but I tire of your inanity and ignorance of history, and inability to process information correctly.

You can’t hang on for just two more days for me?

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 9:28 AM

But you didn’t “win” hawk… you won’t concede to my point that their atheism wasn’t the deciding factor in what they did. Your claim in the argument is that it WAS the deciding factor and I’m saying it’s not.

As I said in my example earlier…

IF I’m an atheist and I decide I hate my wife because she screwed around on me and I decide to kill her, I didn’t kill her because I’m an atheist. I killed her because I hated her and I’m an idiot for resorting to killing her. Atheism didn’t motivate me to kill her, my anger at her actions did. The God of Atheists didn’t tell a follower to write down that if my wife screws around on me that I’m allowed to stone her to death. That’s something your own religion does.

Since you won’t concede that point there isn’t much more to say now is there?

But you DIDN’T win bro!

Keep deluding yourself.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 10:53 AM

Make a correct point and I might concede. Otherwise.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 10:57 AM

Two more days. Just two.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 10:58 AM

If I’m so wrong then why don’t you try to explain to me where I’m wrong hawk? How am I wrong in my thinking?

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 11:30 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 11:30 AM

What else can I say. The leading murderers in justt he last century were atheists. That was my point and I proved it. What else do you need. Picture books. I have to go to work, but at this point, I need you here tomorrow and the next day, k? Then you can do whatever you want.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 11:35 AM

LOL!

And as I said, the kings throughout history and their subjects were Christians, and Muslims, and Hindu’s, and other religious affiliations, and they killed millions of people in the names of their religions and countries… so what?

But the distinct difference between them all was that the people who were religious did it because their religions said they should (spread the word by peaceful means and if those fail by force if necessary.)

Where atheism and religion diverge is that religion can be interpreted by some to back up their bad behavior where an atheist just acts badly. These dictators didn’t do what they did BECAUSE of their atheism bro.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 12:03 PM

And thats the CRUX of your argument. You SAY the argument is just that they were atheists hawk, but we all know that you’re IMPLYING that their atheism is what informed their choices to do what they did, when it’s really religion that causes people to do bad things in the name of the religion.

Again, like a parrot. Their atheism wasn’t the deciding factor in what they did to their people… It was the dogma associated with Communism, that is all.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM

Oh, you make argument now with what you think I’m implying? Does that make it easier for you to actually believe what you say?

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 12:38 PM

You’re denser than lead hawk. You’re OBVIOUSLY trying to infer that these dictators did what they did because of their atheism, and ALL because atheists correctly infer that all the religious wars that have ever been waged were because of the participants religious affiliations.

You’re comparing apples to oranges when you do that hawk.

It’s NOT the same.

These dictators of the 20th century didn’t do what they did because of the dogma of atheism (which has no dogma and ONLY says that there are no theistic gods), they did it because of the dogma of communism, collectivism, and because they wanted to control the masses. And one of the best ways to control the masses is through fear of retribution FROM said dictator, or his lackeys.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 1:09 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 1:09 PM

yeah, that’s me. I’m a liberal atheist who keeps coming back to a Conservative website to have my azz handed to me. I’m denser than lead. (And my faith is as weighty)

Remember, tomorrow and the next day.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 1:17 PM

LOL!

I’m a conservative atheist dipstick, and you’re not handing my ass to me. You just can’t see me handing yours to you because as I said, you’re denser than lead and you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

In case you’re incurious enough to know what that means…

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 1:47 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 1:47 PM

Obviously, you can’t believe you’ve won even a piece of this debate. Me thinks you suffer from most of what you project.

hawkdriver on September 28, 2011 at 7:25 PM

I’ve won several points in this debate hawk and I’ll concede a thing or two as well.

Here’s what I’ll give you, and you think about the rest. Don’t be a pansy either, and run off saying you won because NOBODY ever wins in a debate. Please just TRY to be fair for a minute and think about it. A thoughtful response would be nice (I’m trying to play nice for a second, so lets see how you react)

What I WILL concede is that atheists may have won the “battle” in the 20th century when it comes to numbers of people killed, but that’s PURELY because humans got better at killing. Also, it wasn’t like their armies were made ENTIRELY of atheists either, I mean religious folk always brag about how many people there are who believe right?! Surely there were a lot of conscripted religious folk “in the mix” who got away with trying to eliminate rival belief systems in the process. In fact, Stalin used western raised Russians to control people in eastern Russian, and vice versa. What this does is use those people’s already present prejudices in a judo like move to control everything by playing ethnic groups against ethnic groups. But I digress… It’s CLEARLY NOT because atheists are somehow better at killing than religious people.

You’re also going to have to exclude Hitler from the list of atheists, because he CLEARLY wasn’t one. (if you even said he was I can’t remember all thats been said over the last few days!)

Look, these assholes of the 20th century didn’t do what they did BECAUSE of their atheism. As I said, history is replete with examples of religious bigotry, and even among “like kinds”, ie denomination vs denomination. “Those damn Danbury Baptists” or how about a more recent example, http://www.godhatesfags.com – the home of the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. The HEART of the bible belt, and a church which preaches that only IT has the correct interpretation of the bible!

Religion on religion violence is a matter of history, and no amount of rationalizations is going to get you out from under that fact hawk.

As for my projection? I’m well aware of all of the mental pitfalls of humans. My minor was psychology in college and I stay abreast of it to this day, and I majored in computer science. I KNOW I’m as susceptible to these mental challenges as you are hawk, but knowing of them helps to inure one’s self to it, ir knowledge is power. What do the AA people always say about admitting they have a problem? Once you admit you have a problem you can THEN find a solution to it? If one recognizes something like cognitive dissonance in themselves, it’s easier to combat.

I’ve GONE through that in my life in regards to religion. Everyone treads a different path in life, but we all cross a lot of the same bridges. I’ve been where you are now, and I finally decided that enough was enough with kidding myself.

NOBODY knows for sure there is a god or gods, you just don’t know. So you probably latched onto the first explanation for existence that was out there, what mom and pops believed. It fits dude! It’s what kids do! In response, most parents shower their kids with love bombs for being such a good little boy or girl, and the community at large reinforces the belief, until it’s set in your mind that it’s the truth and you just go with it… Of COURSE one grows in their faith and comes to understand a lot more, and probably/hopefully learns not to take it so seriously but GO with that a thought a second will you?

Don’t take it so seriously. Fine, believe that a god exists, I kind of do as well, but stop kidding yourself that bronze aged Bedouins and shepherds had any more understanding of our place in the universe than we do today.

Divorce morality from religion and you might start to get it.

I’ll pray for you bro.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 9:14 PM

darn it, had another one go into the dang hole. maybe it’ll show up later? dang it. I was extending an olive branch to you too bro. let’s wait a see. Not sure I want to retype it out again (does that answer your question about me cutting and pasting?) ;-)

wait for it for now. hopefully it shows up.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 9:17 PM

wait for it for now. hopefully it shows up.

SauerKraut537 on September 28, 2011 at 9:17 PM

Doesn’t look like it did. What was the crux of the last one you were sending?

Or maybe I think I would prefer to just stop with you telling me that you do believe in a diety. It is confusing to understand that you’ve gone back and forth so. The finer points about what you believe are of course for you. But really, you’re no different than a Christian friend I have that has many other interpretations of The Bible than I. Let’s just say that we both believe and are tolerant of what the other’s concept of religion is.

hawkdriver on September 29, 2011 at 8:42 AM

It’s the one just above the one you quoted…

Why are you not a Christian – Bertrand Russell.

You should hear his answer to the second question in that video…

“Do you think there is a practical reason for having a religious belief?

“Well there can’t be a practical reason for believing what isn’t true, (garbeled) At least I rule it out as impossible. Either a thing is true, or it isn’t. If it is true you should believe it and if it isn’t you shouldn’t. If you can’t find out whether its true or whether it isn’t (which is the case with all religions), you should suspend judgment, but you can’t… It seems to me a fundamental dishonesty, a fundamental treachery to intellectual integrity to hold a belief because you think it’s useful and not because you think it’s true.. .”

SauerKraut537 on September 29, 2011 at 9:37 AM

SauerKraut537 on September 29, 2011 at 9:37 AM

As long as you believe. There is a God. Many people see him as different things. He hears us all when we pray to him. He consigns that many of us has an improper concept of him. That is my rationale and that of my Muslim and Jewish friends who have told me is as such.

hawkdriver on September 29, 2011 at 11:15 AM

hawkdriver on September 29, 2011 at 11:15 AM

MY point is to get you and others to NOT see him as anything, just accept that one or more MAY exist and leave it at that, because when people are SURE of their beliefs that’s when trouble rears its ugly head…

I can’t find an exact article on it and I know I’m mangling the actual studies findings but I saw a documentary on the TV and there was a study recently where they scanned people’s brains with PET machines to track thought processes… It’s called brain mapping, and what they find is that when people talk about themselves, their feelings, and morality, et al, a certain part of the brain lights up with neurological activity.

When they ask these same people to discuss god and religious dogmas and whatnot, the exact same area of the brain lights up.

What this implies is that “god” is within us, not in a literal sense as in he inhabits or is contained within a specific part of the brain, just that god is a thought in our brain and we confuse god with our own sense of morality

Interesting stuff, and neuroscience which is a “new” science is really starting to get down to the nitty gritty of how we humans and other animals interact with each other and think/operate.

SauerKraut537 on September 29, 2011 at 12:01 PM

SauerKraut537 on September 29, 2011 at 12:01 PM

You believe. I believe. That’s all that matters. PS. You needed to post something before midnight.

hawkdriver on September 30, 2011 at 8:59 PM

lol, reverse psychology is powerful magic. Thanks for the free lunch.

hawkdriver on October 2, 2011 at 9:48 AM

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