“SlutWalk” comes to South Africa, where rape is on the rise

posted at 7:00 pm on August 20, 2011 by Tina Korbe

In a country in which more than 55,000 rapes and sexual assaults were reported from 2009 to 2010 alone, some 2,000 protesters marched the streets of Cape Town to contest the notion that what women wear might play into their victimization. The Washington Post reports:

Women draped sexy lingerie over their street clothes as they marched through Cape Town on Saturday, bringing an international campaign against the notion that a woman’s appearance can excuse attacks to a country where rape is seen as a national crisis.

Some 2,000 protesters walked a route where fans partied during last year’s football World Cup. Men joined in, some of them wearing miniskirts in solidarity. Some protesters pushed their children in strollers and carried signs declaring, “Rapists rape people, not outfits,” and “Weak men rape.” …

“SlutWalks” originated in Toronto, Canada, where they were sparked by a police officer’s remark that women could avoid being raped by not dressing like “sluts.”

One of the walkers said it was important for women to know their dignity “should not be taken away from them.” Yes, but it’s also important that women carry themselves with dignity in the first place — and that, I’m sorry to say, means adopting a modicum of modesty. I pity the poor police officer who tried to speak truth and instead sparked an international campaign to excuse women from taking any responsibility at all for the situations in which they place themselves. The police officer was not excusing rape — and neither am I. It is never, never OK. Nor is it ever, ever deserved: The rapist is always the perpetrator, the victim always the victim. But he was pointing out the obvious — that by taking care to dress in a self-respecting manner and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations, women reduce the likelihood that they will be that victim in the first place.

As a college coed, I sat through my fair share of women’s safety lectures. No presenter ever wanted to say it, but it had to be acknowledged as true: No way a girl who stays in her secured dorm room or heads to the local movie theater with friends on a Friday night runs the same risk of date rape as a girl who dances on the tables or falls down drunk at a college kegger. That’s just common sense.

On a separate but related note, the “SlutWalk” phenomenon troubles me for another reason. The bald-faced use of terms once universally accepted as offensive has become too common. Anti-rape activists aren’t the only women who have taken to referring to themselves with labels that suggest they have little to contribute to the community other than brazen sex appeal. Young girls, too, have hijacked formerly disparaging terms and held them hostage in desperate pleas for attention. Facebook walls are plastered with girl-to-girl messages that use these terms affectionately. Women do themselves a disservice when, instead of outright rejecting the use of insulting language, they try to redeem it by using it themselves. Regardless of who uses it, disgusting language is just that – disgusting. Why not a “Walk Like a Lady” anti-rape demonstration?


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4

didn’t bring it up, it was cited by someone else as a place where a woman would not be raped. My point was not about dress, but rather I was addressing the false belief that there is a definition of a “safe situation/place”. (e.g. beaches, malls)

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM

I’m sure you go through your life thinking that you, yes, you, could be raped at any time no matter where you are.

Taking my point about malls to the most hyperbolic reaches doesn’t serve anyone. If you expect to see a rape happening in the food court at your local mall, then you’re not the average American.

You’re likely correct that location and time of day is a more significant indicator than apparel; but that doesn’t mean apparel has no part in it.

Indeed, most men are turned on by the tightness of female jeans in mainstream American culture. Or by nice racks. (don’t deny this it is obvious…)

All women should wear breast bindings and cargo pants, stat.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:06 AM

Yup, as I said, I think Tina noted it well – appearance, conduct and circumstances all come into play. It’s sad, but it’s the reality.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:01 AM

Nobody has presented evidence that wearing more or less clothes can increase or decrease the chance of rape.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:08 AM

More reason why I think every woman should be armed. Trust me, rapes will go down dramatically.

Jesse on August 21, 2011 at 1:08 AM

No way a girl who stays in her secured dorm room or heads to the local movie theater with friends on a Friday night runs the same risk of date rape as a girl who dances on the tables or falls down drunk at a college kegger. That’s just common sense.

Tina how does dancing on tables contribute to your chance of getting raped? Girls who dance are actually more fit and strong than your average girl who just sits in their dorm room, i.e. they are better able to defend themselves.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:10 AM

…..if you are going to quote me, at least use the WHOLE sentence.

Thanks.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:32 PM

Oh-f*ck off. I will do as I please.

I was simply making a point and a little bit of a joke . Of course women dress to attract men at bars.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:41 PM

A joke in a rape thread without a sarc tag and I’m supposed to be on the lookout for this? Ooooookay.

And then:

Me thinks kimmy don’t get out much.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:48 PM

and

Nice catch. I suspect mad and kimmy do not get out much.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:56 PM

and

Just more evidence of kimmy’s naivete.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:00 PM

You’re a creepy weirdo.

kim roy on August 21, 2011 at 1:15 AM

Taking my point about malls to the most hyperbolic reaches doesn’t serve anyone.
Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:06 AM

Actually it’s your own hyperboly, here’s what you wrote – verbatim:

“Tina, suppose a woman decides to wear daisy dukes and a low-cut T-shirt to a mall at 3PM. How the hell is she going to get raped by anybody?

Since it does occur (check it for yourself, refer to my previous instructions on how to use Google using the terms “mall” and “rape”) it clearly demonstrates that you posed an obviously extremely uninformed question that’s completely disconnected from reality.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:43 AM

Since it does occur (check it for yourself, refer to my previous instructions on how to use Google using the terms “mall” and “rape”) it clearly demonstrates that you posed an obviously extremely uninformed question that’s completely disconnected from reality.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:43 AM

I guess you need the 4 adverbs to bluster as mightily as you do. Makes for pretty purple prose.

Here’s the reality – malls are safe places from rapists the vast majority of the time (granted, if you aren’t stupid). Look up any police guideline on what to do if you suspect you’re being followed.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:58 AM

malls are safe places from rapists the vast majority of the time
Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:58 AM

vs.

How the hell is she going to get raped by anybody?
Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:58 AM

From “How the hell could it happen?” to “Er, well, it happens!”. Alrighty, then! Since you’re doing so well debating and rebutting yourself, there’s really no need for me to join in – so have fun & enjoy. Cheers!

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:07 AM

Tina how does dancing on tables contribute to your chance of getting raped? Girls who dance are actually more fit and strong than your average girl who just sits in their dorm room, i.e. they are better able to defend themselves.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:10 AM

LMAO what??

Ronnie on August 21, 2011 at 2:21 AM

Tina how does dancing on tables contribute to your chance of getting raped? Girls who dance are actually more fit and strong than your average girl who just sits in their dorm room, i.e. they are better able to defend themselves.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:10 AM

LMAO what??

Ronnie on August 21, 2011 at 2:21 AM

Who can argue with logic like that?!?

:D

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:23 AM

From “How the hell could it happen?” to “Er, well, it happens!”. Alrighty, then! Since you’re doing so well debating and rebutting yourself, there’s really no need for me to join in – so have fun & enjoy. Cheers!

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:07 AM

I wouldn’t laugh too hard – people have been raped in front of their computers before!

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 2:42 AM

I wouldn’t laugh too hard – people have been raped in front of their computers before!

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 2:42 AM

Nah, I wouldn’t make fun of you. In fact, your “Girls Gone Wild Self Defense Plan” is brilliant!

I mean just think of the potential – girl gets pie-faced at some bar, jumps on the tables and starts bumping and grinding. Left hip takes out one sleazoid, right hip knocks the other scumbag cold. Girl then stumbles to dance pole and takes out a couple more with roundhouse kicks. Finally, as she’s passing out on the pool table, she finishes the rest of the dangerous creeps off with abdominal thrusts to the face as they are sipping shooters off her belly! You sold me and I just don’t see how Tina could not take you seriously.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:53 AM

Nobody has presented evidence that wearing more or less clothes can increase or decrease the chance of rape.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:08 AM

I guess not. But neither have they presented evidence that people who walk in the rain have a higher incidence of being wet than people who don’t.

Sometimes common sense is more accurate than what your “women’s studies” teacher said (of course, by “sometimes”, I mean always.)

Squiggy on August 21, 2011 at 8:28 AM

Nothing more attractive than a woman dressed like a slut with fake boobs, fake lips and ten pounds of makeup./

I’ll take the librarian look anyday over that.

darwin on August 21, 2011 at 8:39 AM

One of the walkers said it was important for women to know their dignity “should not be taken away from them.” Yes, but it’s also important that women carry themselves with dignity in the first place — and that, I’m sorry to say, means adopting a modicum of modesty.

Thank you, Tina.

Christian Conservative on August 21, 2011 at 9:35 AM

No sir, the trigger is power, fear, and control.

You strike me as someone who has been to a lot of “womyns” classes and not talked to any actual honest men.

While power! fear! control! may all be issues it really boils down to someone (a male) who can’t control their lust and has no impulse control or morals.

gdonovan on August 21, 2011 at 10:05 AM

I’ll take the librarian look anyday over that.

I would much rather have a woman with a good heart than one who dresses like a pole dancer.

gdonovan on August 21, 2011 at 10:07 AM

“are any of using asking 4 it?”

No, what you are asking for is to be lusted after but not approached.

disa on August 21, 2011 at 10:15 AM

But he was pointing out the obvious — that by taking care to dress in a self-respecting manner and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations, women reduce the likelihood that they will be that victim in the first place.

Nonsense. Countries that require women to dress in a “self-respecting manner” (i.e. Muslim ones) have some of the worst levels of rape and sexual abuse. Rape is a crime about assertion of power, not sexual attraction.

Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 10:21 AM

This is something I learned too late in life, you can only control your own actions. You cannot control the actions of others…

More reason why I think every woman should be armed. Trust me, rapes will go down dramatically.

Jesse on August 21, 2011 at 1:08 AM

And, this.

Fallon on August 21, 2011 at 10:25 AM

kim roy on August 21, 2011 at 1:15 AM

Another nerve struck-you losers are too easy. Is that all you got?

Did I joke about rape? Uh no. Oh I forgot the internet rules of decorum. Well at least the one where idiots like you can instead of actually coming back with either or good argument or a good snark feign outrage.

Crr would find sisterhood with you kimmy.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 10:26 AM

Darwin you make a good point and as someone noted no one knows what one particular person may go for.

Nonsense. Countries that require women to dress in a “self-respecting manner” (i.e. Muslim ones) have some of the worst levels of rape and sexual abuse. Rape is a crime about assertion of power, not sexual attraction.

Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 10:21 AM

Interesting that the kimmys cannot comprehend this.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 10:28 AM

Illinidiva makes good points. Sort of. On the other hand, and off topic, if she feels that how she dresses will enhance her chances of getting a date, then she feels that how she dresses matter to the response from a male.

Hmmm.

Freelancer on August 21, 2011 at 10:38 AM

Illinidiva makes good points. Sort of. On the other hand, and off topic, if she feels that how she dresses will enhance her chances of getting a date, then she feels that how she dresses matter to the response from a male.

Hmmm.

Freelancer on August 21, 2011 at 10:38 AM

Yes because getting attention from a male is the same as rape. /

CW on August 21, 2011 at 10:48 AM

Hmmmm

CW on August 21, 2011 at 10:48 AM

I’m a woman and pretty amazed at all the strawmen erected by some on this board last night.

OK first just to be clear: Most men aren’t rapists. Rapists are all evil. Rape is NEVER the woman’s fault but rather the responsibility of the rapist.

That said:

Thieves are responsible for their own actions, and it’s no one’s “fault” but theirs if they rob someone. That doesn’t mean it’s not monumentally stupid of me to go walking alone at night with $100 bills hanging out of my pockets.

and – No one said women had to dress like nuns if they want to decrease the likelihood of rape. There are thousands of gradations between burkas and nudity. Clothing IS advertising however, and quite literally everyone who can afford to buy their own clothes is making some sort of statement with them. This video of one woman in six different outfits (I don’t count the seventh for obvious reasons) makes my point very nicely, I think. You can tell quite a lot about a woman simply about what she puts on her back.

As I pointed out in a thread before, some woman did a “Slut for a Day” piece for Glamour, I think, (a one woman Slut Walk experiment) and got treated like a prostitute all day long. She concluded by “feeling torn between feeling sorry for the guy who fell off the barstool next to me trying to look up my microskirt, and wanting to deck him.” She said, “If I were out looking for an easy lay, this is pretty much the getup I’d wear. How’s he supposed to know the difference?”

Yes, some rapists rape one year old children (horror) and 90 year old women. But thieves steal from poor people too as well as rich. Why draw their attention with $100 bills hanging out of your pockets?

But then, that’s not really the only issue here, is it? I suspect, as several commenters said or implied last night. I can’t know for sure but I do suspect based on the EXTREME defensiveness and strawman-erecting going on last night (I can dress like a nun or whore, no in-between!) that some women migggghhhht be feeling just a leetle bit insecure about the fact that they are dressing in a fashion that they suspect might not be completely self-respecting (i.e. that draws virtually all the attention to their bodies only), purposely in order to attract the attention and excitement of men when they go out looking for a date.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:03 AM

But thieves steal from poor people too as well as rich. Why draw their attention with $100 bills hanging out of your pockets?

Good point. I suspect per capita the poor are victims of such crimes more than the middle or upper class.

that they suspect might not be completely self-respecting (i.e. that draws virtually all the attention to their bodies only), purposely in order to attract the attention and excitement of men when they go out looking for a date.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:03 AM

While I agree -was that not a somewhat fallacious argument as well?

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM

And just one more comment about the (IMO) sorta kinda ridiculous argument about beaches last night.

As a John Updike character mentioned of in his very funny classic short story, “A&P,” (which, by the way, defended a woman’s right to wear whatever she wanted, anywhere) everyone on this board knows that a beach filled with women wearing shorts and bikinis to swim, on a sunny day with a lot of activity going on, is way different from the same woman in a bikini walking into a bar. Context means a lot.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM

While I agree -was that not a somewhat fallacious argument as well?

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM

sorry, not clear on what you meant….which was the somewhat fallacious argument? (made too many points in my too-long post :) )

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:10 AM

Isn’t rape a natural out come of Darwinism? Survival of the fittest and all.

Kjeil on August 21, 2011 at 11:11 AM

Context means a lot.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM

Oh so it really is not as simple as what a woman wears that attracts a rapist it is where she wears it. We better start writing these rules down. Please do provide a list so that we may share them with everyone. I suspect bars are a no. Beaches a yes. Malls? School? In your backyard? At the grocery store? Hmmm. This is so complicated../

That was my ridiculous point by the way. So no if a woman wears a skimpy outfit they should not fear rape anywhere and in fact I bet that dress has very little to do with rape.It likely plays part in less than 5% of rapes so all of this pretending that it is a real issue is just a joke.

sorry, not clear on what you meant….which was the somewhat fallacious argument? (made too many points in my too-long post :) )

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:10 AM

that they suspect might not be completely self-respecting (i.e. that draws virtually all the attention to their bodies only), purposely in order to attract the attention and excitement of men when they go out looking for a date.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:03 AM

Are you not attacking people for their insecurity and lack of self-respect?

An ad hominem (Latin: “to the man”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM

Oh so it really is not as simple as what a woman wears that attracts a rapist it is where she wears it. We better start writing these rules down. Please do provide a list so that we may share them with everyone. I suspect bars are a no. Beaches a yes. Malls? School? In your backyard? At the grocery store? Hmmm. This is so complicated../

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM

All due respect, did you not see my segue-to-new-topic sentence? My bad; am sure I tried to cram too much into one post. Here it is again:

But then, that’s [rape is] not really the only issue here, is it?

(will address your other comment in next post to keep these shorter this time)

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:27 AM

That was my ridiculous point by the way.

I did use the word “ridiculous” (a word I don’t use much on these boards, a little more forceful than I am usually) to refer to the long and protracted conversation about clothing on the beach. I do know you were involved in that conversation but I confess, I was extremely surprised at the lack of acknowledgement (on either side of the discussion, to be honest) of the difference between wearing X in a certain situation and wearing it elsewhere.

Just to take an example off the top of my head, on some tours of religious sites, I’ve heard, they make you not wear shorts and cover your shoulders (men and women). What would be perfectly modest in one situation is considered immodest in another. (In a sitaution that no one associates with increased risk of rape, you will notice — we’re talking about plain old summer tourist attire.) Hence my comment about “context.”

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:34 AM

Checking in…

CW’s got a real problem. There are multiple possible causes and situations that lead to rape; opportunity and alcohol and/or drug use are often involved.

Rapes occur; prostitutes get raped, beaten, and murdered. There is a high correlation with occurrence in high crime areas, as well as most rape occurring after nightfall. Strippers are known for getting raped by men (usually drunk) following them when they leave work.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM

Rape is a crime about assertion of power, not sexual attraction.
Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 10:21 AM

Though that’s the politically correct assertion, it is not a correct assertion. Overpowering is obviously an element to the crime, otherwise it would be consensual sex. But if the objective of a rapist were to impress someone with his power, he would instead bench press 200 lbs in front of them a or rip a telephone book in half. The element of a deriving of sexual satisfaction cannot be separated from the crime.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM

Checking in…

CW’s got a real problem.
mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM

Project much. The reality is that dress does not cause rape nor excuse it at much as some here want to pretend. The whole point of the beach example was to prove that and it did. Funny how now everything has become more complex.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:38 AM

Nonsense. Countries that require women to dress in a “self-respecting manner” (i.e. Muslim ones) have some of the worst levels of rape and sexual abuse. Rape is a crime about assertion of power, not sexual attraction.

Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 10:21 AM

Fallacious argument. You’re talking about a sexually repressed society that teaches the use of violence to women to control them. Rape is condoned as punishment and establishment of authority.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:39 AM

Checking in…

CW’s got a real problem. There are multiple possible causes and situations that lead to rape; opportunity and alcohol and/or drug use are often involved.

Rapes occur; prostitutes get raped, beaten, and murdered. There is a high correlation with occurrence in high crime areas, as well as most rape occurring after nightfall. Strippers are known for getting raped by men (usually drunk) following them when they leave work.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM

Good points. The matter at hand is a person putting a target on him-herself as a likely victim-in-waiting, no matter their intentions. As has been previously noted, a guy flashing a roll of 100 dollar bills is more likely to get mugged outside a bar than the broke guy going around trying to mooch drinks off paying customers.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:40 AM

Fallacious argument. You’re talking about a sexually repressed society that teaches the use of violence to women to control them. Rape is condoned as punishment and establishment of authority.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:39 A

Another good point. I doubt there is a large socially-hip, accepted “Girls Gone Wild” type movement in Iran.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:42 AM

So no if a woman wears a skimpy outfit they should not fear rape anywhere

100% agreed. They should not. But because some evil people THINK, WRONGLY, that because their standard male hormones are attracted and activated by the sight of a lot of flesh, that gives them the right to take what they want, a woman does have a reason to fear additional risk of rape. NOT HER FAULT. You hear me, correct? Not her fault. But like I said with the $100 bills hanging out, the fact that she’s dressed like that (and at least one young female explicitly admitted purposely doing so to attract dates, so she knows the effect her dress has even on non-rapists) the fact is that a small percentage of the male attention she DOES attract will be the rapist kind. Statistically.

and in fact I bet that dress has very little to do with rape.It likely plays part in less than 5% of rapes so all of this pretending that it is a real issue is just a joke.

You say “you bet” but I disagree with your premise. I’d be open to agreeing but I’d need data. Because of the statistical reasons above. Yes, some elderly, unattractive or extremely young women do get raped. But date rape situations are undeniably skewed toward women who are putting themselves (a) in the notice-me visual field of “all-the-males, rapists-and-not” attention, and (b) in the field of opportunity, which is what Illinidiva was correctly talking about when she mentioned avoiding too much alcohol, etc.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:45 AM

Project much. The reality is that dress does not cause rape nor excuse it at much as some here want to pretend. The whole point of the beach example was to prove that and it did. Funny how now everything has become more complex.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:38 AM

The depth of your problem is evident in how fast you replied; you’re continuously monitoring this board.
You need to get out more.

The fact is that dress, along with situational aspects such as alcohol and interaction between individuals leads to rape and other types of sexual assault.
The beach scenario was a lame try at a straw man argument.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:45 AM

But if the objective of a rapist were to impress someone with his power, he would instead bench press 200 lbs in front of them a or rip a telephone book in half.

That’s a strange definition of the concept. Flexing physical muscles to impress someone is not the same thing as asserting control/domination over that person.

And no one denies that rapists derive sexual pleasure from the crime. The point is that the sexual satisfaction is itself derivative from the power aspect.

Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 11:50 AM

Fallacious argument. You’re talking about a sexually repressed society that teaches the use of violence to women to control them. Rape is condoned as punishment and establishment of authority.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:39 AM

The notion that women who dress immodestly are “tempting” men into rape is an integral component of sexually repressed societies.

Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 11:55 AM

Are you not attacking people for their insecurity and lack of self-respect?
–CW

Not at all, and am extremely surprised by the charge.

You did notice, I’m sure, that I noted that the huge strawmen being put up last night were unmistakable. No reasonable person would say “you can dress like a nun, or you can dress like a whore; there’s no in between”.

Several people pointed out this strawman last night, which was used more than once by people who admitted straight up they are seeking men’s sexual attention (not rape of course) by how they dress when going out looking for dates. (One even mentioned a ‘sleeveless shirt that shows my boobs’ or words to that effect.)

I also took a lot of care to make several disclaimers (which I have to point out, all due respect, that you appear to be ignoring) that I can’t be sure all the reasons someone would defend both of those positions (paraphrasing here: 1) “I have two choices, nun or whore” and 2) “I seek men’s sexual attention when out in bars looking for dates by making my breasts more prominent”. But insecurity about one’s own method of attracting men IS one of the possible reasons, otherwise there wouldn’t be the haste to erect the false “WHAT? Are you implying I should wear a burka?” dichotomy.

That’s all I meant. And I made clear that since I don’t know the others commenting on this board, I couldn’t be sure. So no, no personal attacks involved.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:56 AM

You need to get out more.

Hmmm where did I hear that?

Oh and …

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:38 AM

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:45 AM

Hmmm you seem to be “monitoring” this thread quite nicely yourself.
Oh and of course no one ever responds quickly. I never see that here at HA. /

.

The beach scenario was a lame try at a straw man argument.

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:45 AM

You don’t even know what a straw man is . The point was simply that dress is not the real issue with rape.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 11:58 AM

You need to get out more.

Mad you’re not very creative. I forgot to point that out. That was a pretty lame comeback.

Funny how millions and millions of women can dress like “sluts” at bars, beaches, and malls and nothing happens. On the other hand you have many rape victims in sweaters, jeans , sweats, business clothes. Hmmm strange.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 12:02 PM

mad scientist on August 21, 2011 at 11:39 A

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:42 AM

The depth of your problem is evident in how fast you replied; you’re continuously monitoring this board.
You need to get out more.
mad scientist on August 21, 2011

Laughable. Mad please define strawman and continuously. I think somebody needs to go back to school.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM

But if the objective of a rapist were to impress someone with his power, he would instead bench press 200 lbs in front of them a or rip a telephone book in half.

That’s a strange definition of the concept. Flexing physical muscles to impress someone is not the same thing as asserting control/domination over that person.

If the goal were to display that person A is stronger than person B, then things such as that would be satisfied with such displays of superiority or the like. Hell, if some guy bends a steel with his bare hands or leaps buildings in a single bound, I’d be first to say I ain’t gonna mess with a dude like that.

And no one denies that rapists derive sexual pleasure from the crime.

That is the goal of rape, not domination, Domination is the way of achieving the goal. Domination/power is an element of every crime, the means to the end. Without domination there would be no robberies, just friendly loans. The goal of a robbery is to get money, not to display power.

The point is that the sexual satisfaction is itself derivative from the power aspect.
Ponz on August 21, 2011 at 11:50 AM

You know this just how exactly? As I said, that’s the PC take. But, at any rate, it seems we do agree that you cannot separate the motive of sexual release from the crime of rape. Otherwise, there would be no rape.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:06 PM

mad scientist— talk about fallacious arguments:

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM
whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:38 PM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:46 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:01 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:43 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:53 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:40 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:42 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:06 PM

So to be fair you are going to take on all of those who “continuously” monitor a thread right? Or is that reserved or those to whom you disagree? Don’t answer. You and I know. You’re vacuous.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 12:12 PM

1. Men are fully responsible for their actions.
2. Women who dress provocatively (note the root word is provoke) are engaging in false advertising. Don’t advertise what is not for sale.
3. Women who dress provocatively are playing with fire. They are the spark, and the man is the fuel. People who play with fire will eventually get burned.

Ann Coulter noted that a married woman, with her husband, is one of the safest people on the planet.

And so it is…

The Rock on August 21, 2011 at 12:50 AM

However, what is actually considered dressing provocatively?? I’m trying to get the Hot Air clothing council to help me out on this, so that men don’t suddenly decide it is okay to rape me? Frankly, you can’t because what the Hot Air social con. contingent sees is street walker wear is what 99.9% of the world sees as appropriate date/bar wear- skinny jeans, a nice tank top, and a pair of nice sandals with a little heel. The whole idea is to flirt with nice guys or your date and play up the physical angle. That doesn’t mean that I’m looking to get raped by every single guy in the bar; there are bouncers and bar tenders to keep away creeps that don’t get the idea of no.

Additionally, a married women with her husband isn’t always the safest person in the world. That is false just like the statement that nobody every rapes women at malls is false. There are husbands who physically abuse, rape, and kill their wives. Ask Lacey Peterson and Nicole Brown about how safe they felt with their husbands.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 12:21 PM

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:10 AM

I think Tina is pointing out that women can do things to reduce their risk but not doing so doesn’t excuse the rapist.

Yakko77 on August 21, 2011 at 12:22 PM

If the goal were to display that person A is stronger than person B, then things such as that would be satisfied with such displays of superiority or the like.

You know this because you are

A) a trained psychologist?
B) a rapist?

You think sexual attraction, and not a need to dominate and control, is responsible for prison rape?

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:23 PM

mad scientist— talk about fallacious arguments:

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM
whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:38 PM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:46 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:01 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:43 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:53 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:40 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 11:42 AM
whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:06 PM

And, yet, a funny thing – you’re totally unable to refute even one “fallacious argument”. Surrender accepted.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:24 PM

I think Tina is pointing out that women can do things to reduce their risk but not doing so doesn’t excuse the rapist.

Yakko77 on August 21, 2011 at 12:22 PM

Yeah but how does covering up reduce your risk against someone who actually would rape you?

That’s not a guy who gets so heated up by some girl that he commits a crime of passion. That’s a guy who camps in a dark parking lot or a hiking trail or sneaks into someone’s home.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:28 PM

Illinidiva makes good points. Sort of. On the other hand, and off topic, if she feels that how she dresses will enhance her chances of getting a date, then she feels that how she dresses matter to the response from a male.

Hmmm.

Freelancer on August 21, 2011 at 10:38 AM

Yeah because thinking someone looks attractive and chatting with them in a bar leads to rape. It frankly is the same with both sexes in bars. Guys don’t want to talk with ladies wearing frumpy plaid skirts and long sleeve collared skirts, and I frankly doesn’t want to talk with a guy who is wearing a flannel shirt with a massive belly sticking out and smells like he hasn’t showered in a week.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 12:29 PM

I once read about a teenager that was raped at a family reunion by a couple of creeps who mingled in and slipped GHB into her drink.

You think they were looking for the most scantily clad women? No. They were looking for a girl who they could knock out.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:34 PM

If the goal were to display that person A is stronger than person B, then things such as that would be satisfied with such displays of superiority or the like.

You know this because you are

A) a trained psychologist?
B) a rapist?

Nope, all it takes – as Tina correctly states – is basic common sense.

You think sexual attraction, and not a need to dominate and control, is responsible for prison rape?
Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:23 PM

Why do you think “domination” and “control” is expressed with a sexual act as opposed to simply punching someone’s light out? If you want to show another guy that you can kick the bejeezuz outta him at will – anytime, you don’t think “hmmm, I need to pull out my Johnson!”, do you? Also, wouldn’t you have a hard time (accidental pun) raping anyone if you weren’t “aroused”.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:36 PM

I think Tina is pointing out that women can do things to reduce their risk but not doing so doesn’t excuse the rapist.

Yakko77 on August 21, 2011 at 12:22 PM

^This.
You totally got her point that some people seemed to have missed.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:39 PM

Nope, all it takes – as Tina correctly states – is basic common sense.

Why do you think “domination” and “control” is expressed with a sexual act as opposed to simply punching someone’s light out? If you want to show another guy that you can kick the bejeezuz outta him at will – anytime, you don’t think “hmmm, I need to pull out my Johnson!”, do you?

Then again, I’m not a rapist. But I’m sure that rapists think exactly like we do, so we can apply our germane rules of logic to their perfectly sound minds.

You think that inmates turn gay as soon as they step into prison?

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:41 PM

Several people pointed out this strawman last night, which was used more than once by people who admitted straight up they are seeking men’s sexual attention (not rape of course) by how they dress when going out looking for dates. (One even mentioned a ‘sleeveless shirt that shows my boobs’ or words to that effect.)

I also took a lot of care to make several disclaimers (which I have to point out, all due respect, that you appear to be ignoring) that I can’t be sure all the reasons someone would defend both of those positions (paraphrasing here: 1) “I have two choices, nun or whore” and 2) “I seek men’s sexual attention when out in bars looking for dates by making my breasts more prominent”. But insecurity about one’s own method of attracting men IS one of the possible reasons, otherwise there wouldn’t be the haste to erect the false “WHAT? Are you implying I should wear a burka?” dichotomy.

That’s all I meant. And I made clear that since I don’t know the others commenting on this board, I couldn’t be sure. So no, no personal attacks involved.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:56 AM

Umm.. That would be me. Frankly, look in any issue of Vogue or Marie Clare and that is what you’ll see women wearing to bars. A lower cut sleeveless shirt and skinny jeans… While you are at it, turn on Fox News and check out what the supposedly professional female journalists are wearing (low cut suits that show off cleavage). I don’t think that any woman goes to a bar wearing pasties and a G-string and it seems like most of the women attending these “slut walks” are wearing bar appropriate clothes that they probably purchased at Urban Outfitters.

I think that those of us who are disagreeing with you and the belief that women “deserve” to be raped because of what they wear are making two points:
1. That this is the argument given by Muslim extremists; the woman deserved to be raped because the whore showed her ankles.
2. There is not one definition of what is sexy and what is slutty. What Hot Air social cons consider street walker clothing is considered appropriate and probably even demure clothing by 99.9% of Americans.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 12:43 PM

1. That this is the argument given by Muslim extremists; the woman deserved to be raped because the whore showed her ankles.

To be fair, the line is blurry, and Tina certainly isn’t taking that position…

But some other people are pretty close. That guy on the other page who said something like “if you swim with the sharks in a seal costume, don’t be surprised.” Leaving aside that swimming with the sharks is the stupid act, not wearing a seal costume, that attitude is pretty close to “she deserved it.”

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:50 PM

Impossible to argue their foolish accusation, if you argue against them, in good faith, you will be accused of being anti-women.
This is like trying to explain how poorly black kids do in school, or try to define why so many black youths are involved in riots, or gangs, eventually you will be called a racist.
It’s like talking logic and science to a witch doctor.
Because of the “gender card” they take away any possible avenue to debate and actually help their cause…so it is best just to ignore their stupid protests.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 12:54 PM

that attitude is pretty close to “she deserved it.”

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:50 PM

You made my point, and many others also…you take it personal, make it personal, when their needs to be dialog. You, and others, when you think there is a counter argument, make it personal.
You can’t discuss this, since one side will always use the “she deserved it”, therefore you are advocating rape.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 12:56 PM

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 12:43 PM

There isn’t a single person on this thread who has even implied that women deserve to be raped, yet you keep returning to that weary strawman. After three pages of this nonsense, it is clear that you are incapable of making distinctions, cannot offer arguments that do not resort to extremes, make assertions with no data or empirical evidence to support them, and generally choose to function in the world as you wish it to be, not the world that is. “Should” is entirely irrelevant when we are talking about people who choose wickedness.

DrMagnolias on August 21, 2011 at 12:56 PM

You think that inmates turn gay as soon as they step into prison?
Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 12:41 PM

Sorry, but you’re really veering off into irrelevant bizarro-land there, like your notion about girls getting fit to fight off bar rapists via drunken table dancing.

However there is an obvious problem inherent in your question, which can be illustrated by posing two questions: Do you think inmates lose their sexual desires once they are imprisoned? If you don’t think that – then which gender in prison do they have available for their sexual release? (I believe coed prisons are pretty rare)

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:58 PM

There isn’t a single person on this thread who has even implied that women deserve to be raped, yet you keep returning to that weary strawman.
DrMagnolias on August 21, 2011 at 12:56 PM

Yeah, I was just about to post a “STRAWMAN ALERT!!” myself.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:00 PM

I think that those of us who are disagreeing with you and the belief that women “deserve” to be raped because of what they wear are making two points:

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 12:43 PM

You will notice that a couple of other commenters between your 12:43 comment and this one already made the point I’m going to restate:

NO ONE is saying that women deserve to be raped. No one. No one on any comment on this board (I’ve read them all) said anything anywhere close to that.

All due respect, I hope you understand that now, because frankly I’m losing my patience with people repeating it and STILL being accused of saying women deserve it.

(more to come)

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:04 PM

And whatcat makes three commenters. And I make four, since 12:43. Are we absolutely clear on that point? OK, let’s continue.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM

2. There is not one definition of what is sexy and what is slutty. What Hot Air social cons consider street walker clothing is considered appropriate and probably even demure clothing by 99.9% of Americans.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 12:43 PM

Years ago, went to a high school basketball game, 1/2 time and the girls come out bouncing around in low cut dance uniforms…two young guys next to me start talking to each other about how one of the endowed girls is “bouncing”, and then start talking about what they are going to do with that girl after the game, and how that girl is most co-operative in “doing”, very graphic….forward a couple of weeks later, parent meeting and I state I think the dresses are a bit revealing for high school, the mother of the girl pipes up and says I am “sexist”, so I, in detail, tell her what the two guys were saying and asked her what time her daughter got home that night “None of your business but she didn’t go out,stayed at a friends house that night”. She was humiliated, and the dresses were changed.
Honey, what you wear reflects on who you are…and if a girl came to your door, smoking a cigarette, tattted up, and not bathed, you wouldn’t let her babysit your child…discernment is a word we all need to learn.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM

Sorry, but you’re really veering off into irrelevant bizarro-land there, like your notion about girls getting fit to fight off bar rapists via drunken table dancing.

That was lame.

However there is an obvious problem inherent in your question, which can be illustrated by posing two questions: Do you think inmates lose their sexual desires once they are imprisoned? If you don’t think that – then which gender in prison do they have available for their sexual release? (I believe coed prisons are pretty rare)

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:58 PM

To put it bluntly one’s hand is available for sexual release, especially if you’re a man.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:07 PM

You made my point, and many others also…you take it personal, make it personal, when their needs to be dialog. You, and others, when you think there is a counter argument, make it personal.
You can’t discuss this, since one side will always use the “she deserved it”, therefore you are advocating rape.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 12:56 PM

I don’t know the humor of your preferred company, but the people I hang out with would say that a guy swimming with the sharks in a seal costume pretty much deserved (and possibly wanted) to get bit. I’m not lumping everyone in.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:10 PM

.forward a couple of weeks later, parent meeting and I state I think the dresses are a bit revealing for high school, the mother of the girl pipes up and says I am “sexist”

Do you believe the posters taking my position are all that reflexive?

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM

Do you believe the posters taking my position are all that reflexive?

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM

All of them or some of them…you see how you react?
This is why this subject can’t be discussed, each side, but particularly the “slut walk” side, will accuse the other of being “sexist” if they try to explain that it isn’t just “one way”, that attitude and dress does matter in how someone is perceived.
Every guy who reaches puberty knows this, and those young boys from the beginning of time creates “targets”.
But women don’t get it, at least most women don’t…my high school illustration was real, and the mom’s didn’t get it until their child was a “target”…too late, she was already been groomed to be a sexual target by their parents.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM

There is not one definition of what is sexy and what is slutty.

This is quite true. Quite a lot of it depends on context and one’s behavior while wearing the clothing. To take an extreme example (which, to be clear, NO ONE is accusing YOU of, so please don’t accuse us of that) look at an actual hooker. She wears extremely revealing clothing, lots of makeup and she specifically approaches men in a looking-for-sex fashion. And since we all know that men’s visual field is related to their hormones, much more than a woman’s is, her dress is specifically designed to excite their sex drive.

OK, now take a woman at the beach in the daytime, with a coed group of friends. She’s actually wearing far less clothing than the hooker. But she’s laughing with her friends, swimming, not acting in a flirty way, playing volleyball for the sake of playing volleyball, not in a hee-hee my top almost slipped off way. That is perfectly modest behavior.

Now take the same woman in the same clothing and change her behavior and/or the location and/or another context (ie is she alone). You know very well her behavior will be interpreted differently by the (say there are lots of) men around her. Most of whom are not rapists. But one or two are, and her appearance draws their attention the same as the other non-rapist men.

The reason that the following statement is mistaken:

What Hot Air social cons consider street walker clothing is considered appropriate and probably even demure clothing by 99.9% of Americans.

is the same as the reason you aren’t getting an answer to “well exactly what CAN I wear?”

It’s not just one thing (and as we all made abundantly clear, you wouldn’t “deserve” it no matter what you wore or how you acted). There is no “8.76″ on the scale of “how revealingly can I dress without attracting the attention of rapists.” Kim Roy earlier in the thread I thought put it quite well. You say you dress specifically to be attractive to men, that is, to attract their attention. Which is precisely the point I was trying to make earlier (the same as kim roy’s) that when you’re looking for the attention of some men, you’re also attracting the attention of some scum (or creepy guys, as you called them).

Are the creepy guys your fault? NO.

But you have to admit that if you went to “8″ or “7.5″ on that scale of clothing (and there are no hard and fast rules people can lay out for you like you keep asking for) then fewer creeps would come up to you. Probably fewer men in general also. But not all.

Perhaps a greater percentage would notice your terrific eyes or your super smile or your attractive laugh first, before noticing your tank top. That’s what I was referring to upthread (and I wasn’t attacking you at all) when I said I wasn’t sure whether or not (cause I don’t know you) the inability to distinguish gradations between “nun” and “whore” indicated something else other than a feeling that “Hot Air people want me in a burka!” (That’s rather disrespectful of us, you know, not to mention being totally false.)

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:24 PM

Again I went too long so forgive me. But I wanted to communicate my respect for Illinidiva as well as answer her repeated questions in a clear way.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:25 PM

And whatcat makes three commenters. And I make four, since 12:43. Are we absolutely clear on that point? OK, let’s continue.
inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM

I think what some people are missing is that the topic Tina discussed was the reality of life and how to lower one’s victim profile.

In a perfect utopian world where everyone loved and respected everyone else we could do, without fear, all sorts of things that are ill advised in the real world. You could hand your money-filled wallet to a stranger on the street and expect him to give it back the next week, still packed with $$$ and no missing ID or credit cards.

In reality we have to be aware of dangers and realize there are a lot of evil people in the world.

We are talking about crime prevention. Everyday many people are mugged. The crime falls on the mugger and he’s the one to blame. However, some people unknowingly and unintentionally stand out as “targets”. Knowing what to do and what not do to so as to stand out as a good target is just common sense and reduces one’s risk of being a victim.

By way of example, here is just one page of advice – How to Avoid Being Mugged.

Just as I can’t get too worked up that there are suggestions on how to lesson a person’s chance of being a nugging victim, I don’t become unglued at suggestions on avoiding being a rape victim.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM

You will notice that a couple of other commenters between your 12:43 comment and this one already made the point I’m going to restate:

NO ONE is saying that women deserve to be raped. No one. No one on any comment on this board (I’ve read them all) said anything anywhere close to that.

All due respect, I hope you understand that now, because frankly I’m losing my patience with people repeating it and STILL being accused of saying women deserve it.

(more to come)

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:04 PM

Well, that has been implied quite a few times on this thread. Including by you I may add basically implying that I must be a whore because I might wear a pair of skinny jeans out on a date and that I probably would deserve what I got for not following the Hot Air Social Con code of dress.

I’m still waiting for what I’m allowed to wear on a date, so as to not invite rape.

Years ago, went to a high school basketball game, 1/2 time and the girls come out bouncing around in low cut dance uniforms…two young guys next to me start talking to each other about how one of the endowed girls is “bouncing”, and then start talking about what they are going to do with that girl after the game, and how that girl is most co-operative in “doing”, very graphic….forward a couple of weeks later, parent meeting and I state I think the dresses are a bit revealing for high school, the mother of the girl pipes up and says I am “sexist”, so I, in detail, tell her what the two guys were saying and asked her what time her daughter got home that night “None of your business but she didn’t go out,stayed at a friends house that night”. She was humiliated, and the dresses were changed.
Honey, what you wear reflects on who you are…and if a girl came to your door, smoking a cigarette, tattted up, and not bathed, you wouldn’t let her babysit your child…discernment is a word we all need to learn.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM

First, high school boys make gross comments because they are high school boys. A pair of girls wearing ankle length skirts and crucifixes could be walking by and they would make a sexual joke about how they need to get laid. There are just rude, sexist boys (and men) in the world and it is best to ignore them. That doesn’t mean that they are going to suddenly decide to rape all women in sight

Second, I’m not thirteen and haven’t done any babysitting since the mid-1990s. I do think that parents shouldn’t be putting their ten year olds in string bikinis; however, we’re talking about how adult women in their twenties choose to dress when they go out on dates or to bars with friends. There’s a different standard between adult appropriate and tween appropriate. I don’t see any ten year olds participating in these “slut walks.”

Third, I’m still trying to get the definition of what is “appropriate” from the Hot Air council on clothing. I’m thinking that the social cons on this board would consider most of what is sold in Urban Outfitters and Banana Republic and showcased in Vogue as haute couture to be street walker clothing, which puts you out of touch with 99% of America.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 1:29 PM

attitude and dress does matter in how someone is perceived.
right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM

Indeed. If anyone doubts that they should ask a hiring manager.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM

All of them or some of them…you see how you react?

My reaction to the shark analogy was appropriate.

Every guy who reaches puberty knows this, and those young boys from the beginning of time creates “targets”.

But women don’t get it, at least most women don’t…my high school illustration was real, and the mom’s didn’t get it until their child was a “target”…too late, she was already been groomed to be a sexual target by their parents.

right2bright on August 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM

We are not talking about the same thing, I think.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:31 PM

Sorry if this has already been said, I just had to put in my two cents…

What you wear really has nothing to do with raising or lowing your potential to be raped. The *situations* you put yourself in are what raises or lowers your danger. For example, you and your girlfriends go party over spring break, wearing bikini tops, short shorts, etc. You all get way too drunk, show your boobs, rub up on strange guys, the whole nine yards. BUT, you stay together, leave the bar in a group, and take a taxi back to your hotel. They’re dressed and acting “slutty” but none of them get raped. Now cut to the girl who stayed on campus over spring break to study. She is leaving the library alone, at night, wearing a loose fitting t-shirt and jeans, and is assaulted and raped on her way home. What she is wearing has NOTHING to do with it. Most rapes are crimes of opportunity… A woman alone, an unlocked door, someone who is too drunk to really know what’s going on, any situation where the rapist can isolate and dominate the other person. Clothes are a false argument.

Boudica on August 21, 2011 at 1:35 PM

First, high school boys make gross comments because they are high school boys. A pair of girls wearing ankle length skirts and crucifixes could be walking by and they would make a sexual joke about how they need to get laid.

If they were attractive enough, the more reserved girls starred in a lot of unrequited fantasies.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:36 PM

Well, that has been implied quite a few times on this thread. Including by you I may add basically implying that I must be a whore because I might wear a pair of skinny jeans out on a date and that I probably would deserve what I got for not following the Hot Air Social Con code of dress.

I’m still waiting for what I’m allowed to wear on a date, so as to not invite rape.

Am going to assume you haven’t yet read my 1;24 comment, since it addresses both your points here.

May I add, as I mentioned in that comment, that I think I’m probably not the only one offended by your continued assumption, despite specific statements by commenters to the contrary, that the “Hot Air Social Con code of dress” includes ankle length skirts, long sleeved shirts, burkas and nun habits.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:37 PM

Nobody has presented evidence that wearing more or less clothes can increase or decrease the chance of rape.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:08 AM

No, but it does change how much others will show respect. There was an apt comment about Mike Tyson when he got a face tattoo. “That guy’s decided he’s gone as far as he’s gonna get in society.” Same thing. But Tyson can likely defend himself.

MrX on August 21, 2011 at 1:41 PM

To put it bluntly one’s hand is available for sexual release, especially if you’re a man.
Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:07 PM

Again, you’re drifting off into bizarrities. But even with the silliness, the question remains – why do you suppose that, in the case of both consensual and non-consensual prisoner sex that both partners are of the same gender?
(Hint: not much choice)

Sorry, but you just drifted way too far off from the question of increasing personal safety and are grasping at meaningless irrelevant straws.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

Am going to assume you haven’t yet read my 1;24 comment, since it addresses both your points here.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:37 PM

Illinidiva is talking about likelihood to get raped and you are talking about the likelihood of wasting your time with creeps. These are two different things.

Of course girls who show more skin get approached by disrespectful guys more of the time.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

It’s not just one thing (and as we all made abundantly clear, you wouldn’t “deserve” it no matter what you wore or how you acted). There is no “8.76″ on the scale of “how revealingly can I dress without attracting the attention of rapists.” Kim Roy earlier in the thread I thought put it quite well. You say you dress specifically to be attractive to men, that is, to attract their attention. Which is precisely the point I was trying to make earlier (the same as kim roy’s) that when you’re looking for the attention of some men, you’re also attracting the attention of some scum (or creepy guys, as you called them).

Well, the point of going to a bar on a Friday night is to attract attention of the other sex. Men do it as well as woman. As I pointed out, I wouldn’t want to be near a guy who hadn’t bathed with their fat belly hanging out of their flannel shirt. It is a first glance sort of things for both sides.

Additionally, creeps are creeps for a reason. There are creepy guys who sometimes have had a few too many and may verbally harass anything with boobs. That is why bars employ bouncers and why both men and women should take precautions like going out with friends, drinking in moderation, having a designated driver, etc. But that doesn’t mean that wearing a buttoned up shirt and an ankle length skirt is going to stop it.

But you have to admit that if you went to “8″ or “7.5″ on that scale of clothing (and there are no hard and fast rules people can lay out for you like you keep asking for) then fewer creeps would come up to you. Probably fewer men in general also. But not all.

And that is the whole point, I consider my clothing appropriate as well as most of mainstream America. However, you and the Hot Air social con. clothing council apparently wouldn’t. How am I supposed to not dress “slutty” when I don’t consider what I am wearing slutty at all? I consider it appropriate and attractive.

Perhaps a greater percentage would notice your terrific eyes or your super smile or your attractive laugh first, before noticing your tank top. That’s what I was referring to upthread (and I wasn’t attacking you at all) when I said I wasn’t sure whether or not (cause I don’t know you) the inability to distinguish gradations between “nun” and “whore” indicated something else other than a feeling that “Hot Air people want me in a burka!” (That’s rather disrespectful of us, you know, not to mention being totally false.)

Actually, I think that some people on this thread arguing that women shouldn’t dress slutty because men cannot help themselves would actually argue that women should only be wearing frumpy nun wear. I’ve seen what the Duggar women wear and I’m sure that at least some of the people on this thread come from similar religious backgrounds. Which is fine, but please don’t push your beliefs about clothing appropriateness on the rest of us.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 1:47 PM

Illinidiva is talking about likelihood to get raped and you are talking about the likelihood of wasting your time with creeps. These are two different things.

Of course girls who show more skin get approached by disrespectful guys more of the time.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I was talking about drawing the unwanted attention of men in addition to the wanted type, of which the former includes both rapists and creepy guys. (And creepy guys are creepy and as you put it “disrespectful” because they don’t respect boundaries [or "no" as in "no means no"], and rapists simply take that all the way.)

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:50 PM

No, but it does change how much others will show respect.

MrX on August 21, 2011 at 1:41 PM

Yeah of course.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

I’ll put this even more bluntly.

Men who rape other men in prison are not necessarily gay. That means they are not sexually attracted to their victims. So why do they do such a thing? Because rape is a way to dominate someone like no other.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:50 PM

Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I was talking about drawing the unwanted attention of men in addition to the wanted type, of which the former includes both rapists and creepy guys. (And creepy guys are creepy and as you put it “disrespectful” because they don’t respect boundaries [or "no" as in "no means no"], and rapists simply take that all the way.)

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:50 PM

Vulnerability is what rapists gravitate to. This stuff about drawing creepy guys in a bar, while undoubtedly true, is a giant red herring.

A tube top-miniskirt girl in a bar with bouncers isn’t going to have rapists hurling themselves at her because they can’t get to her. A girl walking by herself at 1AM has a high chance of getting raped.

Boudica said it best.

Black Yoshi on August 21, 2011 at 1:56 PM

Actually, I think that some people on this thread arguing that women shouldn’t dress slutty because men cannot help themselves would actually argue that women should only be wearing frumpy nun wear. I’ve seen what the Duggar women wear and I’m sure that at least some of the people on this thread come from similar religious backgrounds. Which is fine, but please don’t push your beliefs about clothing appropriateness on the rest of us.

Illinidiva on August 21, 2011 at 1:47 PM

It seems obvious to me you’ve not seen Michelle Malkin or SE Cupp or Ann Coulter in a short sleeved shirt or attractive short dress.

I’m sorry that despite repeated attempts at conversation you seem to be of the opinion, without justification, that “Hot Air social cons” want you in “frumpy nun wear.” (why, it sounds like you have some other beef with social cons besides their purported interest in your clothing, I wonder why that is) You’ve mentioned the Duggars several times and though I have respect for them, most conservatives simply do not dress like that nor do they want women in burkas or nun habits.

it’s a bit frustrating all due respect to have someone so committed to a strawman argument that they refuse to listen to what anyone has to say.

Since you’re absolutely convinced this woman wants you in a convent behind a 20 foot fence in a burka from head to toe, never having any fun, dressing like the Duggars, go ahead and believe that. I gotta go — gotta (no joke, no lie) go to the gym to get my swim in. And I won’t be wearing a burkini, as difficult as that may be to believe ;).

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:59 PM

Since you’re absolutely convinced this woman wants you in a convent behind a 20 foot fence in a burka from head to toe, never having any fun, dressing like the Duggars, go ahead and believe that. I gotta go
inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 1:59 PM

At a certain point a person just has to give up on trying to reason with those who choose to carry on with their own internal argument rather than an external exchange. Too bad :(

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:05 PM

Considering what the frumpy clothes that the Duggars and other social con women tend to wear, I’m assuming that “nun wear” – full length skirts and high collared shirts are the only things allowed.
Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 10:46 PM

Are you adamantly stupid, or what? You have been repeatedly told that this is a false choice, a strawman, that no one expects you to dress like this yet you continue to insist that this is your only option.

I don’t know that you are asking to get raped but you are probably doomed to end up with a not very bright male companion who “dresses to attract” women. How about The Situation? Clearly there’s no middle ground and it’s either that or Dorksville.

Buy Danish on August 21, 2011 at 2:57 PM

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 2:05 PM

True. I’ve read the thread from start to finish (attempted a conciliatory comment) but the only thing I’ve learned is that this person really wants for us to know she wears low cut shirts and skinny jeans, dammit! Something like that. Oh, and the Duggars.

Back to the topic: from experience, attire matters very little compared to where a girl is, when, and who she trusts.

Bee on August 21, 2011 at 3:37 PM

(I can dress like a nun or whore, no in-between!) that some women migggghhhht be feeling just a leetle bit insecure about the fact that they are dressing in a fashion that they suspect might not be completely self-respecting (i.e. that draws virtually all the attention to their bodies only), purposely in order to attract the attention and excitement of men when they go out looking for a date.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 11:03 AM

This cracks me up. I’m pretty sure this could be directed at me and my comments last night. For the record, I don’t dress slutty. Never have, never will….am usually the girl, when getting ready for a night out, trying to teach/tell her girlfriends that there is no need to try and ‘excite’ a man with less clothing…being a woman is simply enough to get that done. In my experience this is true.

With that said, I will still argue for anyone to dress howEver she wants and Never pretend that it is any sort of ‘lure’ for an evil rapist. Fault lies with the rapist, period. You might like your women dressed modestly, but that shouldn’t blur Any lines with you about what happens when a woman is raped.
Besides, most of the cases I’ve read about, known about, the women were not dressed ‘like sluts’.

So, my “emotion” in my responses does NOT stem from any of My own insecurities. It stems from being passionate about the point. The Way a woman dresses is NO EXCUSE for anyone on the planet to pretend it made that person ‘easier’ to rape, and it is not okay to try and make that justification for them, in Any way.

bridgetown on August 21, 2011 at 4:03 PM

…I messed up in my quoting at 4:03, I didn’t mean to cut it off….oops.

bridgetown on August 21, 2011 at 4:07 PM

kim roy on August 21, 2011 at 1:15 AM

Another nerve struck-you losers are too easy. Is that all you got?

Did I joke about rape? Uh no. Oh I forgot the internet rules of decorum. Well at least the one where idiots like you can instead of actually coming back with either or good argument or a good snark feign outrage.

Crr would find sisterhood with you kimmy.

CW on August 21, 2011 at 10:26 AM

You are amazingly stupid. You yourself said you made a joke.

Here. Let me remind you:

Oh-f*ck off. I will do as I please.

I was simply making a point and a little bit of a joke . Of course women dress to attract men at bars.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:41 PM

So either you are incredibly stupid, a drunk or dishonest as you like to creatively edit… which seems to be almost liberal-like.

I’ll let the gentle reader decide which one you are. Myself, I prefer all three, which would definitely be just like a liberal.

kim roy on August 21, 2011 at 4:08 PM

So pathetic that people are talking about how women dress, still.

You are Obviously lending a hand to justifying rape. Period. There’s no other way around it. I don’t care if a woman “looks” slutty to you. That’s subjective. It shouldn’t matter.
The whole point of the ‘march’ seems lost on all of you. Shame should be put upon the idiot rapist, not any woman, no matter what she wears or does.

bridgetown on August 21, 2011 at 4:17 PM

bridgetown on August 21, 2011 at 4:03 PM

Back from my non-burkini swim …No actually it was not directed at you, and I actually am a woman myself (when you said “your women” I wasn’t sure you knew that).

As to your other point, as has been made abundantly clear many times (by many posters) in this thread, there is a huge difference between laying any sort of blame at the feet of any woman who gets raped, no matter what the clothing or lack thereof, and advising people to take healthy, balanced precautions against criminal triggers. People correctly said that vulnerability and opportunity play big factors. They do. All other things being equal, some rapists (esp date rapists) are going to choose the vulnerable one who he can delude himself into believing “she wants it” over the vulnerable one he can’t.

To put this in a nonwoman context (yet again), no one would say a mugger wasn’t solely responsible for his actions. And muggers rape poor people as well as people who are rich. But that doesn’t mean I’m not safer from a mugging walking in a crowd of people at daylight hours in nonexpensive clothes and no diamond rings than alone, at night, with $100 bills hanging from my pockets and gold chains around my neck.

So I can never go out with jewelry and have to wear ratty t-shirts all the time? No one said that. It’s about thoughtful reduction of risk. Dress, awareness, situation (e.g. alcohol awareness as Illinidiva correctly put it) context and other factors are all part of the mix.

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 4:29 PM

Shame should be put upon the idiot rapist, not any woman, no matter what she wears or does.

bridgetown on August 21, 2011 at 4:17 PM

Absolutely, 100% correct. I’m only advising women to be aware of their surroundings and know who her friends are. Women should be empowered to protect themselves and take responsibility for their own well-being as far as it depends upon them (which might mean not attending certain functions, having a solid group of friends, concealed carry, and how they behave socially). Certainly no one can anticipate the actions of a sociopath, but some situations can/should be avoided.

I know it’s a fine line to walk here–insisting that women take certain precautions, implying it’s somehow their fault. That’s not what I mean at all, nor do I think men are uncontrollable brutes who cannot be trusted around scantily clad women. It might be helpful if people were more clear about what scenarios they’re referring to. Stranger rape is rare. Acquaintance rape is much more common, difficult to prosecute, and girls (particularly in the bar/party scene) need to know how to protect themselves.

Bee on August 21, 2011 at 4:40 PM

inviolet on August 21, 2011 at 4:29 PM

I think I just reiterated pretty much everything you said. Apologies. That’s what happens when I leave mid-comment to clean a kid-spill off the carpet and come back ten minutes later. :)

Bee on August 21, 2011 at 4:43 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4