“SlutWalk” comes to South Africa, where rape is on the rise

posted at 7:00 pm on August 20, 2011 by Tina Korbe

In a country in which more than 55,000 rapes and sexual assaults were reported from 2009 to 2010 alone, some 2,000 protesters marched the streets of Cape Town to contest the notion that what women wear might play into their victimization. The Washington Post reports:

Women draped sexy lingerie over their street clothes as they marched through Cape Town on Saturday, bringing an international campaign against the notion that a woman’s appearance can excuse attacks to a country where rape is seen as a national crisis.

Some 2,000 protesters walked a route where fans partied during last year’s football World Cup. Men joined in, some of them wearing miniskirts in solidarity. Some protesters pushed their children in strollers and carried signs declaring, “Rapists rape people, not outfits,” and “Weak men rape.” …

“SlutWalks” originated in Toronto, Canada, where they were sparked by a police officer’s remark that women could avoid being raped by not dressing like “sluts.”

One of the walkers said it was important for women to know their dignity “should not be taken away from them.” Yes, but it’s also important that women carry themselves with dignity in the first place — and that, I’m sorry to say, means adopting a modicum of modesty. I pity the poor police officer who tried to speak truth and instead sparked an international campaign to excuse women from taking any responsibility at all for the situations in which they place themselves. The police officer was not excusing rape — and neither am I. It is never, never OK. Nor is it ever, ever deserved: The rapist is always the perpetrator, the victim always the victim. But he was pointing out the obvious — that by taking care to dress in a self-respecting manner and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations, women reduce the likelihood that they will be that victim in the first place.

As a college coed, I sat through my fair share of women’s safety lectures. No presenter ever wanted to say it, but it had to be acknowledged as true: No way a girl who stays in her secured dorm room or heads to the local movie theater with friends on a Friday night runs the same risk of date rape as a girl who dances on the tables or falls down drunk at a college kegger. That’s just common sense.

On a separate but related note, the “SlutWalk” phenomenon troubles me for another reason. The bald-faced use of terms once universally accepted as offensive has become too common. Anti-rape activists aren’t the only women who have taken to referring to themselves with labels that suggest they have little to contribute to the community other than brazen sex appeal. Young girls, too, have hijacked formerly disparaging terms and held them hostage in desperate pleas for attention. Facebook walls are plastered with girl-to-girl messages that use these terms affectionately. Women do themselves a disservice when, instead of outright rejecting the use of insulting language, they try to redeem it by using it themselves. Regardless of who uses it, disgusting language is just that – disgusting. Why not a “Walk Like a Lady” anti-rape demonstration?


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I have always taught my children, both girls and boys, how not to put themselves in a position of risk. Dressing appropriately for a situation is a given as well.

We’ve had several stories in the Denver area lately about women who were sexually assaulted while walking alone at 2am on bike trails. What are they thinking?!??

And if you’re drinking with men, get drunk and lose control of yourself, don’t go crying rape the next day, it isn’t. I’ve also warned my boys NOT to have sex with women who are drinking, it would be asking for trouble.

Where is common sense these days? You don’t go hiking, skiing, or rock climbing alone, you don’t walk alone in the middle of the night, you don’t get so drunk that you can’t control yourself or your situation, unless you want something bad to happen to you.

Common Sense on August 20, 2011 at 9:18 PM

No one is suggesting you dress like a Pentacostalist frump. You’re building quite an army of strawmen…

Buy Danish on August 20, 2011 at 9:17 PM

Ummm… still don’t know what is considered acceptable. Perhaps Buy Danish should go through my closet and decide what I’m allowed to wear on dates and which clothes it is okay for men to rape me in. Based on what I see the Duggars and other social-con woman wearing, I consider it to be Pentacostalist frump and have therefore come to the conclusion that these are the only clothes that I can wear.

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 9:22 PM

I bet TommyBOY locks the doors on his car and keeps the windows up all the time . He never feels the fresh breeze through the windows of his home for fear that a criminal will be enticed by that open window much like a rapist drawn to a woman in her daisy dukes. He only orders food in and works at home. He does not know the joy of Walmart. He has heard about the high incidence of crime in their parking lots. In fact his only experience has been as an escort for Walmart shoppers. Banking? Heck online only though the fear of viruses and keyloggers keeps him up at night. He dares not even leave the lawn furniture out at night.It is a chore but he must put it away safely because there is always that someone that will be drawn to steal it. Tommy dresses very conservatively making sure not to show too much chest or stomache because we all know men get raped too. He hasn’t seen a swimming pool since his days as a youngin. He knows the world is an ugly place full of people you cannot trust. One must live their lives in fear as those that are ready to pounce for whatever their motivation are numerous. Lock your doors boys and girls. Live your lives based on the fear of others. It is the only way to survive.

/s

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:22 PM

Ummm… still don’t know what is considered acceptable. Perhaps Buy Danish should go through my closet and decide what I’m allowed to wear on dates and which clothes it is okay for men to rape me in…….. Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 9:22 PM

LOL

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 9:24 PM

Deciding to wear clothes or not has Nothing To Do With An Evil Idiot raping someone.

Not only is this argument counterintuitive but there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:24 PM

Common Sense were those women wearing lingeree while they were running in the middle of the night?

/

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:24 PM

Ummm… still don’t know what is considered acceptable. Perhaps Buy Danish should go through my closet and decide what I’m allowed to wear on dates and which clothes it is okay for men to rape me in……

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 9:22 PM

Perhaps your father should go through your closet and write “I’m a brainless little tart” on every slutty outfit you own. Which I’m guessing is 90% of your wardrobe.

Uncle Sams Nephew on August 20, 2011 at 9:26 PM

Ugh…those photos at Zombie are depressing.

More and more, I feel like a stranger in a strange land.

debi118 on August 20, 2011 at 9:27 PM

One more try….I bet TommyBOY locks the doors on his car and keeps the windows up all the time . He never feels the fresh breeze through the windows of his home for fear that a criminal will be enticed by that open window much like a rapist drawn to a woman in her daisy dukes. He only orders food in and works at home. He does not know the joy of Walmart. He has heard about the high incidence of crime in their parking lots. In fact his only experience has been as an escort for Walmart shoppers. Banking? Heck online only though the fear of viruses and keyloggers keeps him up at night. He dares not even leave the lawn furniture out at night.It is a chore but he must put it away safely because there is always that someone that will be drawn to steal it. Tommy dresses very conservatively making sure not to show too much chest or stomache because we all know men get raped too. He hasn’t seen a swimming pool since his days as a young man. He knows the world is an ugly place full of people you cannot trust. One must live their lives in fear as those that are ready to pounce for whatever their motivation are numerous. Lock your doors boys and girls. Live your lives based on the fear of others. It is the only way to survive.

/s

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:28 PM

More and more, I feel like a stranger in a strange land.

debi118 on August 20, 2011 at 9:27 PM

Try having a shred of common sense and discernment. I swear there are days when I feel like a survivor in Fallout 3, except the wasteland is a cultural one.

Uncle Sams Nephew on August 20, 2011 at 9:32 PM

I bet CW walks down alleys at midnight with hundred dollar bills sticking out of his pocket and leaves his wallet on the chair in the dormatory lounge and leaves his keys in the car ignition in the mall parking lot with the doors unlocked because nobody ever steals or robs anybody.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:33 PM

Rape started at epidemic proportions when the media,all liberals, hollywood and the usual ilk said the blacks had to rule the country and get rid of white government. The ranchers were slaughtered and raped, the best and the brightest fled the country, Winnie Mandela burned black people alive because they didn’t toe the line and on and on. Further, hundreds of thousands of blacks who enjoyed the highest employment rate in Africa lost jobs as white business were “managed” by the ANC. A sordid history which also happened under Robert Mugabe in Rhodesia (now’zimbabwe’) and seems to have a spark of beginning in our own land. Black Panther power! Behold Holder’s people!/s

wepeople on August 20, 2011 at 8:12 PM

And there’s a national strike in South Africa (started weeks ago) including some riots. Haven’t seen them mentioned on the television news-I guess between Syria and Great Britain they figured they’d reached the riot saturation point?

Saw some photos of the downtown business district in Johannesburg recently. Managed to get even worse than downtown Detroit and in less time.

Surely there are such problems in many places, but what I can’t stand is when the LSM fails to report certain things, in this case what I believe to be the Saint Nelson Mandela meme. They don’t want to admit that Mugabe and Mandela aren’t all that great after all.

I’m glad those people finally got their liberty, but driving out the Whites was stupid. Well, they got revenge against their former oppressors rather than enfranchising them, and now have to live in their self-induced squalor. Their hate, ignorance, along with the U.N., the U.S., Britain and various Leftist/PC entities and a healthy dose of incompetent, corrupt, Marxist leadership managed to destroy two of the most prosperous countries in Africa a few decades.

Dr. ZhivBlago on August 20, 2011 at 9:34 PM

Deciding to wear clothes or not has Nothing To Do With An Evil Idiot raping someone.——bridgetown, earlier
__________________________________
Not only is this argument counterintuitive but there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:24 PM

You’re kidding with this, right?? Just wow.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 9:35 PM

I bet CW walks down alleys at midnight with hundred dollar bills sticking out of his pocket and leaves his wallet on the chair in the dormatory lounge and leaves his keys in the car ignition in the mall parking lot with the doors unlocked because nobody ever steals or robs anybody.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:33 PM

I see I nailed a nerve. It was sarcasm. Funny that you took it so seriously.Hmmm.

Again tell me again just how do beaches ever stay open?

This should be good.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:36 PM

You’re kidding with this, right?? Just wow.
bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 9:35 PM

You’re really that naive? Just wow.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:37 PM

I see I nailed a nerve. It was sarcasm. Funny that you took it so seriously.Hmmm.

And mine was counter-sarcasm. Sorry it went over your head. I’ll try to dumb it down next time.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:38 PM

Yes… because we should all dress like nuns and spend our lives praying to Jesus like Tina says. I’m sorry, but when I go out to clubs, I do dress a certain way to attract guys. This generally involves wearing revealing tops, tight jeans, and short dresses. This doesn’t mean that I deserve to be raped by anyone because I am wearing a sleeveless shirt that shows my boobs. I might want to flirt with or potentially go out with some of the guys in the bar. No still means no if a creep comes up to me, however. Just because I dressed up in this situation doesn’t mean that I want to spread my legs for every drunken creep that I meet in the bar.

(edit)

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 7:59 PM

You say you dress to “attract guys”. When you cast your net sometimes you are going to catch something you don’t want, so knowing that you find it to be an acceptable risk. That’s fine, but let’s be honest about it.

Before the howls abound, I’m not saying you DESERVE to be attacked, just don’t be SURPRISED if it happens. You’re gambling and sometimes people lose when they gamble.

It’s too bad you can’t wear a little disclaimer to say “but only nice guys, no rapists or kooks, please”.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 9:38 PM

When is the Wallet-Stuffed-With-Cash-Hanging-Out-Of-My-Pocket Walk?

I mean I’ve been told for years that this increases my chance of a mugging, but that isn’t right. I’m not asking to be mugged, I don’t want to be mugged. Quit blaming me.

So we must allow me victim status and have a “WSwCHoomP Walk” to make me feel better about myself and pretend that this action has no impact on mugging (regardless of reality).

Only by pretending that the world is already pretty much a perfect place can we stop blaming me for the constant mugging and theft that I endure.

Walking down the street with a wallet stuffed with cash hanging half out of my pocket is just my style, and has NOTHING to do with my odds of being mugged… because I say it doesn’t.

gekkobear on August 20, 2011 at 9:39 PM

I’ll try to dumb it down next time.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:38 PM

Well you know dumb. Again how do the beaches stay open?

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:39 PM

I bet CW walks down alleys at midnight with hundred dollar bills sticking out of his pocket and leaves his wallet on the chair in the dormatory lounge and leaves his keys in the car ignition in the mall parking lot with the doors unlocked because nobody ever steals or robs anybody.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:33 PM

I do hope that you are never raped because it seems as though that would be the only way for you to learn that this analogy sucks.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 9:40 PM

Again how do the beaches stay open?

Why wouldn’t they stay open? The same way fields and woods stay open. Duhhhh.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:40 PM

tommyboy missed my point. Anyone who finds justification in the act of rape has become the dog. Take a bow wow tommyboy.

Rovin on August 20, 2011 at 9:41 PM

Walking down the street with a wallet stuffed with cash hanging half out of my pocket is just my style, and has NOTHING to do with my odds of being mugged… because I say it doesn’t.

gekkobear on August 20, 2011 at 9:39 PM

Of course that is the same as the issue of how people dress and the motivations for the crimes of rape and robbery. The simplistic babble here is something.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:42 PM

tommyboy missed my point. Anyone who finds justification in the act of rape has become the dog. Take a bow wow tommyboy.
Rovin on August 20, 2011 at 9:41 PM

Straw man. Nobody here has found justification in the act of rape.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:43 PM

Umm.. I don’t consider what I am wearing to be at all street walker-esque. Do I dress differently when I go out with my friends than I do to the office? You betcha. How do you want me to dress? Should I wear a burka out to the bars so all the guys libidos aren’t tapped? That sounds like the justification that Islamic extremists use for stoning rape victims.

Of course, I’m sure that I’m pure evil because I’m almost thirty and have the audacity to be single and going out to bars and not barefoot in the kitchen popping out babies every year.

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 8:13 PM

Ah. Much like wearing a tank top and miniskirt at the bar, you are here trolling as well. Good to know. Please disregard my first comment as responding to a serious post. Thank you.

Carry on, guv.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 9:43 PM

Why wouldn’t they stay open? The same way fields and woods stay open. Duhhhh.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:40 PM

How did I know you would not have a serious answer? You know you being so smart and all.

Yep all of those women dressed in hardly anything on the beautiful beach. Don’t they realize they are just tempting the beasts? We must stop them! They are stupid for acting that way. /

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:44 PM

tommyboy missed my point. Anyone who finds justification in the act of rape has become the dog. Take a bow wow tommyboy.
Rovin on August 20, 2011 at 9:41 PM

It is very clear tommyBOY has issues. I think maybe it would be best not to get him revved up.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:45 PM

How did I know you would not have a serious answer?

Because you knew it wasn’t a serious question.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:45 PM

You say you dress to “attract guys”. When you cast your net sometimes you are going to catch something you don’t want, so knowing that you find it to be an acceptable risk. That’s fine, but let’s be honest about it.

Before the howls abound, I’m not saying you DESERVE to be attacked, just don’t be SURPRISED if it happens. You’re gambling and sometimes people lose when they gamble.

It’s too bad you can’t wear a little disclaimer to say “but only nice guys, no rapists or kooks, please”.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 9:38 PM

None of the social cons are getting the point here.

A woman could be wearing a black miniskirt, tube top, and heels, and as long as she remained in a highly populated area, a police station, or a locked home, while moderately drinking, she wouldn’t get raped.

Conversely a mentally challenged, obese woman wearing clothing from neck to toe has a HIGH chance of getting raped because unless properly guided, she doesn’t know which areas are safer than others.

Whether a woman gets raped or not has nothing to do with how attracted men are to them. It’s how vulnerable they are.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 9:46 PM

It is very clear tommyBOY has issues. I think maybe it would be best not to get him revved up.
CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:45 PM

Think whatever you want. I know it’s a struggle but go for it.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:47 PM

Because you knew it wasn’t a serious question.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:45 PM

Actually it is.You just don’t want to think about it as it shoots down your whole lame way of thinking.

The beach near my home has thousands of visitors each summer. There are no lifeguards and rarely a police officer is seen . Are the women that go there in their bikinis foolish and just asking for it? Are you ready to post warnings at all beaches that such dress is dangerous and foolhardy?

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:51 PM

We’ve had several stories in the Denver area lately about women who were sexually assaulted while walking alone at 2am on bike trails. What are they thinking?!??

Common Sense on August 20, 2011 at 9:18 PM

Yeah, but exactly when is a safe time to go out walking?

The fundamental problem is that these creeps are out there doing this time and time again (and probably other crimes since they were juveniles) and obviously feel there’s no repercussions to worry about.

Dr. ZhivBlago on August 20, 2011 at 9:51 PM

The police officer was not excusing rape — and neither am I.

Unconvincing.

VerbumSap on August 20, 2011 at 9:52 PM

Think whatever you want. I know it’s a struggle but go for it.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:47 PM

You are a boy aren’t you?

I know why you don’t open your windows-you can’t. Your windows are glass block. You know like most basements.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:52 PM

Straw man. Nobody here has found justification in the act of rape.

tommyboy on August 20, 2011 at 9:43 PM

You’ve been arguing “justification” for the last hour moron. Making excuses for the purpose of intent is pure BS. You’re admitting the weakness of the human soul, and I’m submitting there is none but those who have become less than that—more like a dog. But keep digging your hole, it seems to become you.

Rovin on August 20, 2011 at 9:53 PM

to become you.

Rovin on August 20, 2011 at 9:53 PM

To have as much passion as the boy has exhibited over this is frightening and telling. Guilt maybe? Justification?

Gotta wonder.

Oh and T-boy — just because a search for beach rapes comes up with links doesn’t mean they happened at the beach. Most often they are referring to beach towns. You know like Miami Beach, Dayton Beach, Panama City Beach. Yep you’re smart.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:58 PM

None of the social cons are getting the point here.

A woman could be wearing a black miniskirt, tube top, and heels, and as long as she remained in a highly populated area, a police station, or a locked home, while moderately drinking, she wouldn’t get raped.

Conversely a mentally challenged, obese woman wearing clothing from neck to toe has a HIGH chance of getting raped because unless properly guided, she doesn’t know which areas are safer than others.

Whether a woman gets raped or not has nothing to do with how attracted men are to them. It’s how vulnerable they are.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 9:46 PM

That’s part of it. My point was going to the bar, with provocative clothing for the single point of “attracting guys” as the initial poster said, is putting her in a vulnerable position. Who’s to say that amongst the number of men attempting to pick her up, one isn’t a date rapist who goes to bars to pick up trollers.

Actions add to the vulnerability – by behaving like one is wanting sex, it’s disingenuous when someone believes the advertising. The trick is to find someone who will honor the word no, but when one is trolling sometimes that’s the risk, which was my point.

Gamblers have to accept that not every bet’s a winner.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:02 PM

that by taking care to dress in a self-respecting manner and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations, women reduce the likelihood that they will be that victim in the first place.

Tina, suppose a woman decides to wear daisy dukes and a low-cut T-shirt to a mall at 3PM. How the hell is she going to get raped by anybody?

Conversely, if you had to walk the inner city streets of Detroit alone at 2AM, do you really think you’d be at less risk of getting raped if you wore appropriate business attire??

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM

That’s part of it. My point was going to the bar, with provocative clothing for the single point of “attracting guys
kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:02 PM

Women go to bars and dress to attract men? You don’t say.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:08 PM

Conversely, if you had to walk the inner city streets of Detroit alone at 2AM, do you really think you’d be at less risk of getting raped if you wore appropriate business attire??

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM

Ahh but you would have more risk showing a whale tail and a bikini top. Don’t you get it?

/sarc

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:09 PM

That’s part of it. My point was going to the bar, with provocative clothing for the single point of “attracting guys” as the initial poster said, is putting her in a vulnerable position. Who’s to say that amongst the number of men attempting to pick her up, one isn’t a date rapist who goes to bars to pick up trollers.

No, it’s ALL of it.

What if illinivida, or whatever her username is, is overweight with a face that could get confused for the Governator’s? The date rapist in your scenario is more likely to go for a chick who covers up her skin but has a nice face and a fit body.

By keeping themselves in shape, women are therefore INCREASING THEIR CHANCE OF GETTING RAPED.

There are ways to prevent date-rape, and no, I’m not talking about “don’t wear slutty clothing.” It’s carrying pocket weapons, knowing self-defense, and staying in safe areas.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:11 PM

It’s carrying pocket weapons, knowing self-defense, and staying in safe areas.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:11 PM

Being smart with alcohol and drugs ranks up there .

By keeping themselves in shape, women are therefore INCREASING THEIR CHANCE OF GETTING RAPED.

Nothing but burgers and shakes for my lady. We all know ugly fat women never get raped.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:15 PM

that by taking care to dress in a self-respecting manner and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations, women reduce the likelihood that they will be that victim in the first place.

Tina, suppose a woman decides to wear daisy dukes and a low-cut T-shirt to a mall at 3PM. How the hell is she going to get raped by anybody?

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM

I believe that’s covered in the second half of her sentence, which you didn’t highlight in bold – and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 10:17 PM

I believe that’s covered in the second half of her sentence, which you didn’t highlight in bold – and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 10:17 PM

Which is the only determinant of whether a woman gets raped or not.

Scantily clad woman in safe situation = NO RAPE (but will probably not attract a lot of the monogamous type)

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:20 PM

Nothing but burgers and shakes for my lady. We all know ugly fat women never get raped.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:15 PM

You know what kills me? I know someone who actually believed that up until recently. She wouldn’t go to the gym because she was afraid that she’d be more at risk for rape if she was better toned.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:22 PM

Scantily clad woman in safe situation = NO RAPE (but will probably not attract a lot of the monogamous type)

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:20 PM

Women in an unsafe situation regardless of dress are in danger. Heck depending on the perp’s proclivities a woman dressed like a slut could actually be a turn off.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:24 PM

That’s part of it. My point was going to the bar, with provocative clothing for the single point of “attracting guys
kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:02 PM

Women go to bars and dress to attract men? You don’t say.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:08 PM

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:31 PM

A sordid history which also happened under Robert Mugabe in Rhodesia (now’zimbabwe’) and seems to have a spark of beginning in our own land. Black Panther power! Behold Holder’s people!/s

wepeople on August 20, 2011 at 8:12 PM

Slightly OT, but:

“Firms in Zimbabwe Told To Yield Control to Blacks”.

Wall Street Journal
Saturday/Sunday, August 20 – 21, 201
Page A9

oldleprechaun on August 20, 2011 at 10:31 PM

That’s part of it. My point was going to the bar, with provocative clothing for the single point of “attracting guys
kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:02 PM

Women go to bars and dress to attract men? You don’t say.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:08 PM

Sorry for the above post. No, *I* don’t say, the original poster did and if you are going to quote me, at least use the WHOLE sentence.

Thanks.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:32 PM

Sorry, should have been

August 20 – 21, 2011

oldleprechaun on August 20, 2011 at 10:32 PM

Scantily clad woman in safe situation = NO RAPE (but will probably not attract a lot of the monogamous type)
Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:20 PM

The problem is there is no definition of “safe situation”. Except for perhaps lifelong hermits (at least from human threat). For example, murders, rapes and robberies occur in malls – I doubt few criminals consider them “no go” areas. That’s why there are mall cops. For that matter, rape, robbery and murder can even happen in a church. Probably one of the most dangerous mistakes a person can make is to believe there is a “safe place/situation”. And that’s not even touching on home invasion.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 10:34 PM

No, it’s ALL of it.

What if illinivida, or whatever her username is, is overweight with a face that could get confused for the Governator’s? The date rapist in your scenario is more likely to go for a chick who covers up her skin but has a nice face and a fit body.

By keeping themselves in shape, women are therefore INCREASING THEIR CHANCE OF GETTING RAPED.

There are ways to prevent date-rape, and no, I’m not talking about “don’t wear slutty clothing.” It’s carrying pocket weapons, knowing self-defense, and staying in safe areas.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:11 PM

I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at here. You said initially that it makes no difference what the victim looks like and here you are saying it does.

I have no idea what goes on in the mind of a rapist, just that like most people why would one work harder than he/she (yes men get raped too) has to and pick the easiest target?

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:35 PM

…..if you are going to quote me, at least use the WHOLE sentence.

Thanks.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:32 PM

Oh-f*ck off. I will do as I please.

I was simply making a point and a little bit of a joke . Of course women dress to attract men at bars.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:41 PM

The point of the ‘march’ and the point of all of this is that

it doesn’t and should not matter what a woman has on her body, in way of clothing, that should EVER MATTER

when it comes to RAPE.

It’s quite simple, really.

You have NO EXCUSE if you are a predator. I do not care how you try to justify it and I do not care how other men try and justify it for you. There is NO EXCUSE.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 10:42 PM

Well you know dumb. Again how do the beaches stay open?

CW on August 20, 2011 at 9:39 PM

Beaches don’t occur in bad neighborhoods; people don’t go to beaches at night to drink and try to get laid.

Kind of a silly comment.

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:43 PM

……..just that like most people why would one work harder than he/she (yes men get raped too) has to and pick the easiest target?

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:35 PM

Just because.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:43 PM

Beaches don’t occur in bad neighborhoods; people don’t go to beaches at night to drink and try to get laid.

Kind of a silly comment.

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:43 PM

Beaches occur? Usually it takes thousands of years for them to “occur”.

Oh and you don’t think there are not beaches in bad parts of this country or this world? How naive are you?

Let me see if I have this right provocative dress only attracts rapists in bad parts of town?

Talk about silly.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:46 PM

You say you dress to “attract guys”. When you cast your net sometimes you are going to catch something you don’t want, so knowing that you find it to be an acceptable risk. That’s fine, but let’s be honest about it.

Before the howls abound, I’m not saying you DESERVE to be attacked, just don’t be SURPRISED if it happens. You’re gambling and sometimes people lose when they gamble.

It’s too bad you can’t wear a little disclaimer to say “but only nice guys, no rapists or kooks, please”.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 9:38 PM

Umm.. Dressing nicely, going out to bars, and flirting with a few guys is a time honored method for meeting people of the opposite sex. I’m not sure how else you expect people to find potential partners?? Also, most good bars have bouncers, so if a creep doesn’t get “no”, they are escorted out of the bar.

Ah. Much like wearing a tank top and miniskirt at the bar, you are here trolling as well. Good to know. Please disregard my first comment as responding to a serious post. Thank you.

Carry on, guv.

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 9:43 PM

Yeah.. Heaven forbid, people wear tank tops and mini skirts to bars. That is what 99.9% of the female population wears out to bars and that doesn’t mean that we look like prostitutes. I’m still interested in figuring out what is considered “acceptable” clothing to wear on a date based on those who seem to think that slutty clothes lead to rape. Considering what the frumpy clothes that the Duggars and other social con women tend to wear, I’m assuming that “nun wear” – full length skirts and high collared shirts are the only things allowed.

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 10:46 PM

Umm.. Dressing nicely, going out to bars, and flirting with a few guys is a time honored method for meeting people of the opposite sex.

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 10:46 PM

Me thinks kimmy don’t get out much.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:48 PM

south africa is indeed ‘ the rape capital of the world’ and, yes ,there is the superstitious notion that raping near infants and virgins will protect one against AIDS infection. western liberals- the “we are the world” cult- have been blissfully ignoring this dire situation for decades because the imperialist , capitalist running dog racist lackeys are finally on the run from their oppressive empires.

tell me. what could a 5 year old possibly be wearing, what impossibly seductive flesh is exposed to the genetic male that makes it your prerogative, having a penis and all, to rape her? because no one told the child that adult males HAVE to rape them for showing a little pre-school leg? someone please tell infants to cover up, ok. it’s all their fault if they incite rape which, even our society, is conveniently desensitized by renaming it ‘ molestation’. and so many claim to actually care about children.

a certain segment of the right is always spouting this ‘nature not nurture’ blather to support the criminal sexual assault upon females but not , strangely, to support consensual sex outside of marriage by willing adults. funny, my mom raised me to respect other people, male and female, and to not take liberties with them to which they had not consented no matter what the situation. you have a hand, presumably. one shouldn’t have such thoughts anyway because it’s a sin. if it is offending thee and sinning against the lord i suggest cutting it off rather than having at a woman in a bikini.

i thought your bible made you above the natural impulses of animals and non -christianized savages? oh, above the nonbeliever in everything but the use of the female as your male religious leaders and human male penned tracts tell you you are entitled to. anyone who shows a little elbow is fair game. they are asking for it, according to jesus or something. according to darwin, actually, according to the right to rape motif of the male can’t help himself when provoked by a little skin.

rape is about power and subjugation not about the biological imperative to breed otherwise one is no better than a rabid dog. only, generally ,in the animal kingdom when it comes to breeding the female controls the process. animals are less prone to rape than humans.

mittens on August 20, 2011 at 10:49 PM

people don’t go to beaches at night to drink and try to get laid.

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:43 PM

Are you being facetious?? You can’t be serious…lol!

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 10:50 PM

There was a comedian who talked about this:
He said “If I stand on the street corner in a policeman’s uniform that doesn’t mean I’m a policeman, I’m just wearing the uniform. People are going to think you’re a hooker cause you’re wearing the uniform.”

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:52 PM

The point of the ‘march’ and the point of all of this is that

it doesn’t and should not matter what a woman has on her body, in way of clothing, that should EVER MATTER

when it comes to RAPE.

It’s quite simple, really.

You have NO EXCUSE if you are a predator. I do not care how you try to justify it and I do not care how other men try and justify it for you. There is NO EXCUSE.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 10:42 PM

You are making rational points, but unfortunately men who commit rape are not rational. So, in a perfect world where everyone is sane, rational and respects everyone elses’ worth as a human being, it would be simple. But I suspect you know as well as I that this world is not a perfect place.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 10:52 PM

I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at here. You said initially that it makes no difference what the victim looks like and here you are saying it does.

I have no idea what goes on in the mind of a rapist, just that like most people why would one work harder than he/she (yes men get raped too) has to and pick the easiest target?

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:35 PM

The poster is just pointing the silliness associated with your post. If dressing provocatively causes men to be unable to control their sexual urges and rape women, then wouldn’t also spending time on the treadmill and having a slim body with curves in the right places would also lead men to want to rape women… And this could go on and on. If you want to push the logic even further, taking a daily shower would probably make women more attractive to rapists. The rapist might be turned off by heavy BO.

So I should not only get rid of all clothes that aren’t approved by the great Hot Air council on appropriate clothing. I should also cancel my gym membership and stop showering because these actions could also attract racists.

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 10:54 PM

I’m just wearing the uniform. People are going to think you’re a hooker cause you’re wearing the uniform.”

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:52 PM

What? Are you saying it’s okay to RAPE a prostitute>????????????????????

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 10:54 PM

The problem is there is no definition of “safe situation”. Except for perhaps lifelong hermits (at least from human threat). For example, murders, rapes and robberies occur in malls – I doubt few criminals consider them “no go” areas. That’s why there are mall cops. For that matter, rape, robbery and murder can even happen in a church. Probably one of the most dangerous mistakes a person can make is to believe there is a “safe place/situation”. And that’s not even touching on home invasion.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 10:34 PM

Uh, what? That’s why there are MALL COPS? MALL COPS are going to protect you from rape and murder inside your hometown mall? You are aware that a mall cop is nothing but a walking two-way radio right?

Second how are you going to rape a woman in an open mall in broad daylight? I eagerly await your Ocean’s Eleven of Rape schemes.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:55 PM

People are going to think you’re a hooker cause you’re wearing the uniform.”

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:52 PM

And of course hookers should get raped./ got it.

people don’t go to beaches at night to drink and try to get laid.

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:43 PM

Are you being facetious?? You can’t be serious…lol!

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 10:50 PM

Nice catch. I suspect mad and kimmy do not get out much.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:56 PM

mad scientist on August 20, 2011 at 10:52 PM

What? Are you saying it’s okay to RAPE a prostitute>????????????????????

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 10:54 PM

….mad….scurries backwards….

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:56 PM

I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at here. You said initially that it makes no difference what the victim looks like and here you are saying it does.

I do not believe the victim’s looks make a difference. I am simply taking your premise (looks do make a difference) to its logical conclusion.

I have no idea what goes on in the mind of a rapist, just that like most people why would one work harder than he/she (yes men get raped too) has to and pick the easiest target?

kim roy on August 20, 2011 at 10:35 PM

Yeah the thing is you are confusing wearing less clothes with being an easier target.

Wearing less clothes does NOT make you less mentally or physically capable of defending yourself.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:57 PM

I doubt few criminals consider them “no go” areas.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 10:34 PM

Really? You really think criminals , especially violent ones, think a mall is a good place for robbery and rape?

CW on August 20, 2011 at 10:59 PM

watch out. This may attract more UN peace keepers.

mechkiller_k on August 20, 2011 at 10:59 PM

I do not believe the victim’s looks make a difference. I am simply taking your premise (looks do make a difference) to its logical conclusion.

Just more evidence of kimmy’s naivete.

Yeah the thing is you are confusing wearing less clothes with being an easier target.

Wearing less clothes does NOT make you less mentally or physically capable of defending yourself.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:57 PM

Thank you.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:00 PM

Uh, what? That’s why there are MALL COPS? MALL COPS are going to protect you from rape and murder inside your hometown mall? You are aware that a mall cop is nothing but a walking two-way radio right?

Second how are you going to rape a woman in an open mall in broad daylight? I eagerly await your Ocean’s Eleven of Rape schemes.

Black Yoshi on August 20, 2011 at 10:55 PM

Actually, I have heard of high schoolers getting raped at the local mall in broad daylight. There are bathrooms and parking lots at malls and probably alley ways, etc. It’s all about knowing your surroundings and not following creepy people.

Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 11:01 PM

Being raped in Africa and living through it is only a midlevel crime

there is far worse available

I’m sure the commies will be doing their best to import the savages here so all is fair

Sonosam on August 20, 2011 at 11:01 PM

watch out. This may attract more UN peace keepers.

mechkiller_k on August 20, 2011 at 10:59 PM

Yes because those women in the Congo dressed so sluttily./

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11224656

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:02 PM

Actually, I have heard of high schoolers getting raped at the local mall in broad daylight.
Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 11:01 PM

Sure it happens .As someone noted earlier it can happen anywhere but the mall would not be the first choice of a rapist. Something about the lights and crowds.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:03 PM

Reading this thread is realizing how weak Men really must be.
They show us how weak they are in the muslim/arab world…can’t even see a woman’s ankle without FREAKING OUT.

This entire thread of men justifying these actions based on clothing is so freakin’ sad. Thank goodness there are Real Men (and women–like in the protest–point of this post) in the world to protect many of the vulnerable from idiots that LOSE ALL CONTROL when a woman wears a tshirt.

Sad indeed.
Idiotic, as well. Oh, well, I was just minding my own business sitting in my home watching TV. Someone broke in and killed me. My bad….shouldn’t have been LIVING.
Idiots.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 11:05 PM

A woman raped and beaten and left for dead is NOT morally superior to a woman standing over her dead attacker with a smoking gun in hand. Maybe some serious and deadly effective self preservation might help. Just sayin’…

Yakko77 on August 20, 2011 at 11:07 PM

Actually, I have heard of high schoolers getting raped at the local mall in broad daylight. There are bathrooms and parking lots at malls and probably alley ways, etc. It’s all about knowing your surroundings and not following creepy people.
Illinidiva on August 20, 2011 at 11:01 PM

Indeed, it’s not a rare thing at all. A person who claims it doesn’t happen could educate himself pronto with a quick Googling.

The funny thing is that Black Yoshi completely missed the point; if malls are safe, crime free areas why the need for any mall cops at all? Went WOOOSH over his noggin.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:10 PM

Reading this thread is realizing how weak Men really must be.
They show us how weak they are in the muslim/arab world…can’t even see a woman’s ankle without FREAKING OUT.

This entire thread of men justifying these actions based on clothing is so freakin’ sad. Thank goodness there are Real Men (and women–like in the protest–point of this post) in the world to protect many of the vulnerable from idiots that LOSE ALL CONTROL when a woman wears a tshirt.

Sad indeed.
Idiotic, as well. Oh, well, I was just minding my own business sitting in my home watching TV. Someone broke in and killed me. My bad….shouldn’t have been LIVING.
Idiots.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 11:05 PM

Now you did it. Ankles.

/
Oh and close your blinds so a thief won’t see your 60 inch LCD.

/

I think you did a fine job putting some people in their place.Hopefully some people learned something.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:10 PM

A woman raped and beaten and left for dead is NOT morally superior to a woman standing over her dead attacker with a smoking gun in hand. Maybe some serious and deadly effective self preservation might help. Just sayin’…

Yakko77 on August 20, 2011 at 11:07 PM

I’m all for it. Trouble is, as I go through my pistol training and do things the right way….any potential attacker out there has his own ways and is probably more powerful than I…(me, weighing 100lbs) …so, yeah, I carry pepper spray until I’m legally able to carry lead. Until then, and after then….what I’m wearing should never matter, and rape should be treated as it is. Deadly serious.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 11:12 PM

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:10 PM

Google school rape, campus rape, bar rape, park rape , walmart rape, and just for T-Boy beach rape. Not really a strong argument that you have there. Actually a mall would be one of the safer places and that is the point.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:13 PM

Sure it happens .As someone noted earlier it can happen anywhere but the mall would not be the first choice of a rapist. Something about the lights and crowds.

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:03 PM

Check my “Googling” link above or just enter mall & rape in Google. As mentioned, while it’s true there are probably not a whole lotta rapes in the middle of a mall anchor store, it happens in the bathrooms, garages, janitor’s closet, etc. – places away from crowds & lights.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:13 PM

Clothing has nothing to do with it. Women in their 90s have been raped. Infants have been raped. They weren’t dressed provocatively and they weren’t “dancing on tables”. Rape is all about power. Women, unless they have an equalizer like a firearm, run a higher risk than men, although men certain can be and are raped, too. It’s vital not to put oneself in that kind of vulnerable postition, but it’s near impossible to be on high alert at all times *and* not run into simple bad luck, like a flat tire, etc. Being raped is such a crushing experience that it’s awful to have some people put half the blame on the victim. Hell, in some cultures dressing provocatively means being out of your all-concealing bag without a male escort.

kc-anathema on August 20, 2011 at 11:14 PM

Also, Googling “beach” & “rape” yields like results. It’s a mistake to think any place is a totally safe haven from crimes of any type.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:15 PM

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:10 PM

;) thankya kindly~
We can only hope.

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 11:16 PM

Check my “Googling” link above or just enter mall & rape in Google. As mentioned, while it’s true there are probably not a whole lotta rapes in the middle of a mall anchor store, it happens in the bathrooms, garages, janitor’s closet, etc. – places away from crowds & lights.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:13 PM

What percentage of rapes happen at malls? Oh and to get back on topic what were the victims wearing?

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:19 PM

Rape is all about power.
kc-anathema on August 20, 2011 at 11:14 PM

I agree that “power” is an inherent element, but I don’t think you can logically separate the sexual satisfaction element from rape. Otherwise the perp would be doing something else instead, e.g. just holding someone down or only slapping the victim around.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:19 PM

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 11:12 PM

I absolutely agree. I merely advocate a bit of proactive self preservation from women and a bit of common sense as Tina suggests. There is never an excuse for rape but one can take step to protect and reduce the risk to one self.

Yakko77 on August 20, 2011 at 11:20 PM

What percentage of rapes happen at malls? Oh and to get back on topic what were the victims wearing?

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:19 PM

I didn’t bring it up, it was cited by someone else as a place where a woman would not be raped. My point was not about dress, but rather I was addressing the false belief that there is a definition of a “safe situation/place”. (e.g. beaches, malls)

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM

didn’t bring it up, it was cited by someone else as a place where a woman would not be raped. My point was not about dress, but rather I was addressing the false belief that there is a definition of a “safe situation/place”. (e.g. beaches, malls)

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM

I don’t think that poster meant malls were 100 percent safe. Rapes can and do happen anywhere. Which places are safer than others? Also, this thread is somewhat about dress and rape so it is good you realize that rape has little to do with dress..

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:26 PM

The paradox is beyond imagining.

The home town of the geopolitical immoral maximum becomes host to geopolitical morons.

Speakup on August 20, 2011 at 11:34 PM

I don’t think that poster meant malls were 100 percent safe. Rapes can and do happen anywhere. Which places are safer than others? Also, this thread is somewhat about dress and rape so it is good you realize that rape has little to do with dress..
CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:26 PM

I can’t read minds so I just go by what the commenter stated.

Comment threads are pretty much free flowing and wind along down all sorts of paths, more often than not ending with a few commenters just tossing flames to & fro as a thread dies down.

But for my money, and to bring in part of the actual post topic, I think Tina’s observations are quite good:
One of the walkers said it was important for women to know their dignity “should not be taken away from them.” Yes, but it’s also important that women carry themselves with dignity in the first place — and that, I’m sorry to say, means adopting a modicum of modesty. I pity the poor police officer who tried to speak truth and instead sparked an international campaign to excuse women from taking any responsibility at all for the situations in which they place themselves. The police officer was not excusing rape — and neither am I. It is never, never OK. Nor is it ever, ever deserved: The rapist is always the perpetrator, the victim always the victim. But he was pointing out the obvious — that by taking care to dress in a self-respecting manner and by not putting themselves in potentially compromising situations, women reduce the likelihood that they will be that victim in the first place.

whatcat on August 20, 2011 at 11:38 PM

Speakup on August 20, 2011 at 11:34 PM

What does that mean?

bridgetown on August 20, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Yes, but it’s also important that women carry themselves with dignity in the first place — and that, I’m sorry to say, means adopting a modicum of modesty.

Amen.

Here is some food for thought. If a white guy decides to take a walk down in the projects in East L.A., wouldn’t he be “asking for something to happen?” Not WANTING something to happen, of course. Nobody “wants” it. But sometimes when you swim with sharks wearing a seal costume, you’re gonna get bit.

Sterling Holobyte on August 21, 2011 at 12:30 AM

Yes, but it’s also important that women carry themselves with dignity in the first place — and that, I’m sorry to say, means adopting a modicum of modesty.

Amen.
Here is some food for thought. If a white guy decides to take a walk down in the projects in East L.A., wouldn’t he be “asking for something to happen?” Not WANTING something to happen, of course. Nobody “wants” it. But sometimes when you swim with sharks wearing a seal costume, you’re gonna get bit.
Sterling Holobyte on August 21, 2011 at 12:30 AM

Yeah, it’s a sad reality, but it is what it is (to coin a phrase). Pretty much the same as a situation wherein you have some thugs looking to rob somebody & they got a homeless bum on one side of the street and a guy wearing a 3 piece suit, wearing a gold watch on the other side. One potential victim is going to attract their attention more than the other.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 12:46 AM

Okay, I will be blunt:

1. Men are fully responsible for their actions.
2. Women who dress provocatively (note the root word is provoke) are engaging in false advertising. Don’t advertise what is not for sale.
3. Women who dress provocatively are playing with fire. They are the spark, and the man is the fuel. People who play with fire will eventually get burned.

Ann Coulter noted that a married woman, with her husband, is one of the safest people on the planet.

And so it is…

The Rock on August 21, 2011 at 12:50 AM

I don’t think that poster meant malls were 100 percent safe. Rapes can and do happen anywhere. Which places are safer than others? Also, this thread is somewhat about dress and rape so it is good you realize that rape has little to do with dress..

CW on August 20, 2011 at 11:26 PM

So location matters; it’s not a guarantee, but it matters.

Ok then.

Some people think clothing matters; as you think location matters. This isn’t “justifying” rape any more than saying location matters is “justifying” rape is it?

You’re likely correct that location and time of day is a more significant indicator than apparel; but that doesn’t mean apparel has no part in it. Behavior also plays a larger part than apparel (I’d suspect). Without a study I’d agree with you that location (including time) and behavior (drinking, drugs, etc) matter more than apparel. But that doesn’t indicate that apparel has no importance.

From my earlier mugging analogy; location, time, and behavior probably count more there too. Most of the clubs I go to you probably can have a $100 hanging half-out of your back pocket all night without any issue. That still doesn’t make it clever.

Sorry if this is still “simplistic babble” to you. Given that you’re more likely to simply spout off a personal attack than to make an argument I guess I’ll end this here.

gekkobear on August 21, 2011 at 12:56 AM

I’m glad those people finally got their liberty, but driving out the Whites was stupid. Well, they got revenge against their former oppressors rather than enfranchising them, and now have to live in their self-induced squalor. Their hate, ignorance, along with the U.N., the U.S., Britain and various Leftist/PC entities and a healthy dose of incompetent, corrupt, Marxist leadership managed to destroy two of the most prosperous countries in Africa a few decades.

Dr. ZhivBlago on August 20, 2011 at 9:34 PM

It was entirely predictable. Observant people got out of the country as quickly as they could. It seems almost as bad there for whites now as it was for the Jews in 1939 Germany.

scotash on August 21, 2011 at 1:00 AM

Some people think clothing matters; as you think location matters. This isn’t “justifying” rape any more than saying location matters is “justifying” rape is it?
gekkobear on August 21, 2011 at 12:56 AM

Yup, as I said, I think Tina noted it well – appearance, conduct and circumstances all come into play. It’s sad, but it’s the reality.

whatcat on August 21, 2011 at 1:01 AM

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