Revenge: U.S. airstrike kills Taliban who shot down SEALs’ chopper
posted at 8:08 pm on August 10, 2011 by Allahpundit
They haven’t — yet — liquidated the original target of Saturday’s mission, but the group responsible for the chopper hit has gone to meet Allah. How’d they do it? Bill Roggio has details:
The hunter-killer team tracking Mohibullah had received “multiple intelligence leads and tips from local citizens” on his location, and found the Taliban unit in a wooded area of Chak after “an exhaustive manhunt.” The special operations team then called in an airstrike to kill the Taliban fighters. ISAF said Mohibullah and his fighters “were attempting to flee the country,” presumably to Pakistan, “in order to avoid capture.”
Curiously, the military still won’t confirm that it was enemy fire that brought the chopper down. All they’re willing to say right now is that, if it was enemy fire, the weapon involved wasn’t anything more sophisticated than an RPG and that the resulting crash was utterly devastating, requiring four days to gather all the wreckage and remains. The death toll, incidentally, remains at 38, but late word tonight from the military is that 17 of the men aboard were SEALs, not 22 as was originally reported. Why were so many men, and so many SEALs especially, jammed into a single Chinook? Good question. Special forces troops are wondering the same thing:
They also questioned whether the quickly assembled mission was necessary to rescue a band of Army Rangers reportedly under fire from Taliban militants.
“I squarely blame whoever planned and authorized the mission for the deaths,” said a Special Forces soldier who served in Afghanistan.
“It was simply uncalled for unless Rangers were being overrun and the ground situation required this much operational risk.”
Special operations sources also told The Washington Times that it would have been better to send two helicopters instead of one to reduce risks…
“There may have been an operational reason not to spread them out over two, [but] I just don’t know what that would be.”
Any military readers care to offer a theory? Is it possible that only one Chinook would have been ready to fly, for whatever reason, and that in their haste to get there and reinforce the Rangers the SEALs were forced to pile into one?
A senior Afghan official told the AFP a few days ago that this was in fact a trap set by a Taliban commander — and aided by “four Pakistanis” — to avenge the Bin Laden killing. We were kicking around that possibility within hours of the news breaking on Saturday, but I don’t understand the logistics of it. How did it work, exactly? They ambushed the Rangers, at great personal risk to themselves, and pinned them down in hopes that they’d (a) call for reinforcements, (b) that those reinforcements would be comprised of SEALs, ideally from Team 6, and (c) that they’d somehow manage to take down a Chinook armed with nothing more advanced than an RPG? That plan would take a mind-boggling amount of luck to come off — and yet it came off perfectly. I’ve had smart people who know what they’re talking about tell me that this was simply a lucky shot, but they’d have to have been fantastically, astronomically lucky to have it be a lucky shot in the context of a trap deliberately set for the SEALs. The military, in fact, says it has no information to support the Afghan official’s claim and the Taliban itself hasn’t taken credit for what would be one of their biggest propaganda victories of the war. Very curious.
The remains of the fallen troops returned to the U.S. yesterday, and while the Pentagon promised there would be no photos at Dover, the White House managed to upload this one of Obama into their Flickr account. Go figure. Exit quotation: “Doug Wilson, head of public affairs at the Pentagon, said the department did not know the White House photographer was present and had no idea a photo of the event was being released until it became public.”
Blowback
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I dont buy it, too good to be true.
ColdWarrior57 on August 10, 2011 at 8:11 PM
Cold comfort, indeed.
bernzright777 on August 10, 2011 at 8:11 PM
Andrw Cuomo did a piece on this on ANBC World News Tonite. He tried to make it seem like Obama inspired the whole operation. The media is in full Obama damage control mode on this mass murder of American troops.
sbvft contributor on August 10, 2011 at 8:12 PM
I hadn’t seen that picture, man oh man I dislike our president.
Cindy Munford on August 10, 2011 at 8:12 PM
First off, I am not criticizing National Guard pilots or their training, but there is no doubt that there a qualitative difference between TF160 and everybody else. That goes for the old USN HCS-5 (disbanded), the Marines, and even AFSOC helos. TF160 is by far the best.
The way these target sets are developed there is often only a few hours between getting a PID on a target and rolling on it. Maybe TF160 had a maintenance problem, maybe they were committed to another op, who knows? This practice of airborne QRF is SOP as they generally do not rely on conventionals or other non-JSOC SOF to fulfill this role due to the specific methods of operating that have developed inside of JSOC. Chances are they have had to use non-organic air assets before, and they will probably have to use them again. Rangers are part of JSOC just like TF160 and DevGru/CAG and are usually co-located and operating under the same TF Commander. It isn’t normal to have white SOF or conventionals working for JSOC as a unit (augmentees yes), so it makes sense for DG to have fulfilled this role. Will they change this in the future? Probably not, but you never know-nor should you.
Flying into a hot LZ is a risky proposition no matter who you are, but without the MH birds and TF160 crew, it is made much more difficult. Was there hesitation? Did the GFC in the helo tell the pilots to do something that TF160 does every night, but that he had never done? I don’t know, but the black bus is the go to helo over there due to the thin air at altitude not only because it holds a lot of guys. It has two independent rotors where nothing else does so that makes it the best platform.
War is a fluid business and shit happens no matter how prepared you are. I would not have expected JSOC to waive off this operation just because they didn’t have their normal air assets. They might change that going forward, but it is perfectly defensible to have gone out and done it this way. These guys are hitting multiple targets PER NIGHT and momentum is very important (see OODA loop) in keeping the enemy off balance. They don’t get to train for 6 weeks for a single op like the bin Laden hit very often. That was a special case. Sometimes the enemy gets lucky. It just happens.
One more thing. It is very easy for some nameless SF shithead to say something like, “It was simply uncalled for unless Rangers were being overrun and the ground situation required this much operational risk.” Really? Uncalled for? So it would be “called for” to have a predator feed (probably) showing you that the taliban command element that you were targeting was splitting in the middle of the Ranger assault to a location that they were not able to pursue, and you had an SOP airborne QRF with eyes on or at least comms telling them what was happening and the GFC goes, “Nah, too much operational risk. We’ll spin up an entirely different op sometime in the future to get this guy because that will be a cakewalk. Running down a fleeing enemy is too risky for us.” I don’t fucking think so, bub.
That flip little statement is one of the most punk ass Monday Morning QB jobs I’ve heard in a while.
Froggy on August 10, 2011 at 8:12 PM
Even in death, Barry likes to use the troops in a photo op, because it’s ALL about Barry, ALL the time.
GarandFan on August 10, 2011 at 8:13 PM
In fact Allah the White House is taking fire for that photo op.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2015875017_apususafghanistanmedia.html?syndication=rss
William Amos on August 10, 2011 at 8:14 PM
It doesnt come out even by a mile but I am happy they sent those Talibanis to Hell.
Southernblogger on August 10, 2011 at 8:15 PM
It is very easy for some nameless SF $hithead to say something like, “It was simply uncalled for unless Rangers were being overrun and the ground situation required this much operational risk.” Really? Uncalled for? So it would be “called for” to have a predator feed (probably) showing you that the taliban command element that you were targeting was splitting in the middle of the Ranger assault to a location that they were not able to pursue, and you had an SOP airborne QRF with eyes on or at least comms telling them what was happening and the GFC goes, “Nah, too much operational risk. We’ll spin up an entirely different op sometime in the future to get this guy because that will be a cakewalk. Running down a fleeing enemy is too risky for us.” I don’t f*cking think so, bub.
That flip little statement is one of the most punk a$$ Monday Morning QB jobs I’ve heard in a while.
Froggy on August 10, 2011 at 8:15 PM
More
When asked about the photo Wednesday, White House spokesman Jay Carney said the picture was carefully taken so that it did not show the cases containing remains.
William Amos on August 10, 2011 at 8:15 PM
Most likely explanation: Big talk by the Afghan official. Not saying it couldn’t be true, but it’s far more likely the guy is just making up a good story.
Of course, I don’t claim to be an expert on these kinds of missions, but I’ve known people like that.
tom on August 10, 2011 at 8:16 PM
First off, I am not criticizing National Guard pilots or their training, but there is no doubt that there a qualitative difference between TF160 and everybody else. That goes for the old USN HCS-5 (disbanded), the Marines, and even AFSOC helos. TF160 is by far the best.
The way these target sets are developed there is often only a few hours between getting a PID on a target and rolling on it. Maybe TF160 had a maintenance problem, maybe they were committed to another op, who knows? This practice of airborne QRF is SOP as they generally do not rely on conventionals or other non-JSOC SOF to fulfill this role due to the specific methods of operating that have developed inside of JSOC. Chances are they have had to use non-organic air assets before, and they will probably have to use them again. Rangers are part of JSOC just like TF160 and DevGru/CAG and are usually co-located and operating under the same TF Commander. It isn’t normal to have white SOF or conventionals working for JSOC as a unit (augmentees yes), so it makes sense for DG to have fulfilled this role. Will they change this in the future? Probably not, but you never know-nor should you.
Flying into a hot LZ is a risky proposition no matter who you are, but without the MH birds and TF160 crew, it is made much more difficult. Was there hesitation? Did the GFC in the helo tell the pilots to do something that TF160 does every night, but that he had never done? I don’t know, but the black bus is the go to helo over there due to the thin air at altitude not only because it holds a lot of guys. It has two independent rotors where nothing else does so that makes it the best platform.
War is a fluid business and shit happens no matter how prepared you are. I would not have expected JSOC to waive off this operation just because they didn’t have their normal air assets. They might change that going forward, but it is perfectly defensible to have gone out and done it this way. These guys are hitting multiple targets PER NIGHT and momentum is very important (see OODA loop) in keeping the enemy off balance. They don’t get to train for 6 weeks for a single op like the bin Laden hit very often. That was a special case. Sometimes the enemy gets lucky. It just happens.
Froggy on August 10, 2011 at 8:16 PM
Will he never learn how to salute correctly? It’s really not that tough. It’s easier than reading a teleprompter.
notropis on August 10, 2011 at 8:17 PM
What I’d like to know is why a plain vanilla National Guard helicopter was used instead of one of the 160th SOAR birds. Something here seems … off.
OhioCoastie on August 10, 2011 at 8:17 PM
Shooting RPGs at choppers is nothing new. To my knowledge this is at least the fourth helicopter taken down by just such a weapon (2 in Mogadishu in 1993, at least 1 in Takur Ghar, and now this one).
That being said, it’s cold but nonetheless grimly delightful comfort to be able to tell the enemy that we will find him, and we will kill him.
Sgt Steve on August 10, 2011 at 8:19 PM
I don’t know what to believe anymore…
Fallon on August 10, 2011 at 8:20 PM
MH-47 during daytime on a short-range mission without a known air defense or radar threat is a more expensive CH-47. There’s nothing about an MH-47 that would have changed anything about the event.
Sgt Steve on August 10, 2011 at 8:21 PM
The photo op is more selfishness from the creep.
BD57 on August 10, 2011 at 8:21 PM
A Stealth Photographer, I guess.
This is very distasteful.
SlaveDog on August 10, 2011 at 8:22 PM
OK, that makes sense. Thanks.
OhioCoastie on August 10, 2011 at 8:22 PM
The Right Scoop (TRS) has a pretty good write up:
http://www.therightscoop.com/seal-team-6-murder-or-casualities-of-war-a-look-at-facts/
It should answer some of the questions
SgtSVJones on August 10, 2011 at 8:24 PM
Joke Biden also played a part in the loss of the SEAL helicopter.
slickwillie2001 on August 10, 2011 at 8:24 PM
I’m shocked that I’m apparently the only one to notice it. If you look at the picture closely you will see that Mr. Obama is not saluting, he is thumbing his nose at the dead American heroes.
Mason on August 10, 2011 at 8:27 PM
would comprise SEALs
Max Boot had an excellent analysis of this scenario in yesterday’s WSJ.
John the Libertarian on August 10, 2011 at 8:27 PM
I do have to say that the initial things I had read/heard indicated it was a day-time op. As it turns out, the Chinook was taken down at about 0300, which does bring in some questions of why not use a MH-47.
That being said, much of what makes a MH-47 is sound/heat baffling, which may not matter depending on the phase of the moon to make it visible. Also, the plume of dust kicked up on approach and the Kopp-Etchell’s effect
will cause the helicopter to be pretty easy to spot.
I still stand by the statement that all indications are than an MH-47 would not have changed whether it was shot down by a dumb-fire weapon like an RPG.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I agree with the SF operators who wonder when DEVGRU was put into action as a QRF operation.
Sgt Steve on August 10, 2011 at 8:34 PM
The DoD had no idea the WH photog was there, but PBHO sure as hell did. Not only did he allow the photo to be taken but also that it was disseminated to the public.
The entire administration is packed solid with lying, abhorrent human garbage.
Bishop on August 10, 2011 at 8:35 PM
Not an even trade, not even close.
On another note, I keep thinking about King David sending Uriah the Hittite into the midst of the battle and instructing the other commanders to withdraw, thus orchestrating Uriah’s death to cover King David’s royal butt. Here is Obama throwing a bone to the Islamist’s.
Grunch42 on August 10, 2011 at 8:36 PM
You’re all over it today. If they hit every helicopter they shot at with an RPG, we’d have quit by now.
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 8:36 PM
There is no fucking Allah. Just God and our Lord Jesus Christ. These fucks went straight to Satan.
eski502 on August 10, 2011 at 8:39 PM
This whole thing stinks to high Heaven. I initially thought this was a result of ROE -and it still may be to some extent. But the more I’ve read, the more I think this is either just a horribly planned mission or one that failed due to a lack of assets. Either way, this is fubar.
As for taking out the shooter? Yeah. That will certainly help tamper down any media investigation into the incident; “we got ‘em, end of story”.
Sorry, but I don’t believe anything out of this administration including the Pentagon.
On a lighter note- here’s another poster for the forthcoming Obamaganda/bin Laden movie.
BKeyser on August 10, 2011 at 8:39 PM
Too late…and unbelievable bullsheet.
Part and parcel of our silly, immature, unserious way to wage war without so called “collateral damage”.
My way? JDAMS and nukes. Totally annihilate, cripple and kill everything “thing” within 50 miles. So…they’ll be “pissed off”. So what? They’ll still take our idiotic “nation building”.
Twana on August 10, 2011 at 8:39 PM
There is no Allah. Just God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. These rag heads went straight to Satan.
eski502 on August 10, 2011 at 8:41 PM
How do we know there weren’t more than one CH-47? Has someone said there was only one? They could have been part of a much larger force on two or more such craft, we just don’t know.
We aren’t likely to get a lot of detail either, at least I hope we don’t.
crosspatch on August 10, 2011 at 8:42 PM
So how do they know who the guy is who shot down the chopper?
SoulGlo on August 10, 2011 at 8:43 PM
One Seal dead? One Marine Dead…..10,000 islamist POS’s DEAD.
Make them regret for ever…and their families ( Patton ) that they ever picked up a weapon against ONE American….
PERRY / TRUMP…enough of the ass kissing for over 10 years. Time to get giggly.
Twana on August 10, 2011 at 8:44 PM
This is why the Air Force Combat Controller is the most badazz dude in the Special Ops/Special Tactics business.
Tony737 on August 10, 2011 at 8:44 PM
Inside job courtesy of our Afghan “allies.” They may not have been in on the planning of this raid, but 1) someone knew of the Rangers plan, and what our response to an overwhelming attack on them would be.
And I don’t discount countries eavesdropping on our conversation (Russia, China, Iran, Pakistan in no particular order.)
I weep for the fine young men who died here.
rbj on August 10, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Obama Dover AFB photo updated:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/obamagolfingatdover.jpg/
BJ* on August 10, 2011 at 8:47 PM
Are they sure? After all, Gaddaffi’s dead son just showed up alive and well. Just sayin’ .
Fortunata on August 10, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Mr. President is a d**k, there was no excuse for taking photos there. Self serving tool.
scalleywag on August 10, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Was Bigelow there with a Hollywood filming team to pick up some footage for little Bammie’s campaign movie about OBL?
slickwillie2001 on August 10, 2011 at 9:01 PM
If TF 160 MH47s were unavailable and plain vanilla 101st Air chinooks were, then these chinooks would’ve/could’ve been used as a plan B. MH47s are very well used and there may have been a maintenance issue with 1 or 2 of them and that restricted the airlift at the time of the operation. Moreover, the deputy CG of the 101 is the investigator. The 101 may have had C2 of the AO there and had some say in the lift capabilities going into the area. Finally, despite this being a regular Army lift chinook, those pilots have likely been there and the “experience gap” between the TF160 fellas and the regular aviation fellas has slimmed slightly. my 2cent
ted c on August 10, 2011 at 9:03 PM
Rip to those men. I am toasting to them tonight.
blatantblue on August 10, 2011 at 9:03 PM
This will sound so dumb, but can’t we invent SOME sort of counter system to RPGs?
Again I know NOTHING.
We can’t have some sort of detection system on the aircraft that detects fast moving incoming objects? Can we not place a series of charges on various angles of the craft to violently distribute metal washers or objects once an incoming object is detected?
Am I dreaming the impossible
blatantblue on August 10, 2011 at 9:07 PM
I don’t think we are likely to see a full mission manifest or plan nor do I think we need to see it. Quite frankly, though the curiosity is understandable, there is nothing we as voters can do about it so we should mourn our national loss and keep on.
We don’t elect the military leaders in the field and our elected officials don’t (or at least I hope they don’t) micromanage them to the level of such mission details as this. We have to trust or military to get this sorted out and see that it doesn’t happen again. I believe they are highly motivated to accomplish that task. They lost their bothers in arms. Believe me, they are not happy about this and I believe will do what they can to see that it doesn’t happen again.
crosspatch on August 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Only counter-measure to an RPG is a fine set of eyeballs. They’re only in the air for a few seconds, and reactionary armor (which explodes to defeat 2-stage armor piercing projectiles) would be self-defeating.
Simple fact is, RPGs are just another Soviet wonder-weapon that does its thing so well we’ll probably be wringing our hands over its potential for another 50 years.
Sgt Steve on August 10, 2011 at 9:11 PM
It stinks to me. Just stinks. As does the SONY-release date of the *unusually well leaked content* as film about the *get* of Osama bin Laden.
I hope that Rep. King remains intense on his demands for investigations in this entire issue of intelligence and now also the planning involved that led to the deaths of those aboard this Chinook.
With closing disgust levied here to the wretched, utterly disgusting photo op of Barack Obama on the White House site “Official photograph of the day” despite the request by parents/relatives of the deceased for no photographs to be taken.
The word, “disgust” does not even come close to what I feel about this entire abuse of the lives and families of our heroic U.S. military.
The good news is that the SEALS reintroduced themselves with greater force in Afghanistan. I wouldn’t wish that on any President but Obama and Administration have gone off the very deep end of reason, ethics and standards.
Lourdes on August 10, 2011 at 9:12 PM
Yes, that’s what I was just referring to but I didn’t even want to so much as offer a link to this latest, utterly disgusting Mister Disgust. I have no words adequate to describe the man’s moral absence. Except the obvious, and that is that he’s working for anyone-but-Americans, saluting our fallen and using them as “photo op” is exactly what an enemy of this nation would do, and has.
Lourdes on August 10, 2011 at 9:16 PM
You can’t defeat every system with technology. The RPG is incredibly simple and hard to defeat if it makes contact. It has a copper jacket of the warhead that turns liquid on impact and pretty much melt through most medium armor. The skin of a helicopter doesn’t have much of a chance at all. Not even the ballistic blankets we put in.
It’s like the military being cowed by the media to keep increasing the application of armor to our ground vehicles until we have vehicles like the Stryker and the MRAP. The IEDs are so big now in trying to defeat the MRAPs, that smaller vehicles like the Stryker are literally being blown in two.
They just add more MHE to the hole.
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:17 PM
He manages not to be photographed at all his fundraising shindigs.
Cindy Munford on August 10, 2011 at 9:19 PM
the only way for that to happen is to have an informant aware of who boarded what bird. The Taliban shot down an MH47 full of SEALs in Kunar province with an RPG right up the a$$ of the bird, it actually exploded inside the helicopter. What it says regarding SEALs is that there is absolutely no question that, when the sh!t starts hitting the fan, all of those guys will pack onto the first thing smoking and head into the fray.
Courageous.
ted c on August 10, 2011 at 9:19 PM
That’s sort of how the latest Israeli system works to protect their tanks from the newer Russian anti-tank systems. Don’t know if it could be adapted for helicopters, and it’s still in testing. It’s called TROPHY.
slickwillie2001 on August 10, 2011 at 9:19 PM
And, adding emphasis to his knowing-the-photographer-was-there-taking-his-picture, the “White House” actually posted the photo on it’s official website as “photo of the day.”
EVEN AP REFUSED TO DISSEMINATE IT. I mean, **EVEN** AP refused. But, nooo, not Obama, he hosted the thing up there proud as can be. Utterly disgusting.
Lourdes on August 10, 2011 at 9:20 PM
“AP” means “Associated Press” in that statement above.
Lourdes on August 10, 2011 at 9:20 PM
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:17 PM
exactly, and it’ll reduce an already compromised ACL up in the mountains of Afghanistan. Some aviation guys I knew were joking (UH60 guys) that, in Afghanistan, you can either fly, or carry stuff, just not both.
physics.
ted c on August 10, 2011 at 9:21 PM
There is an installation system that can detect RPGs and Mortars that are fired at larger FOBs. Once the system sees an incoming round, it literally showers the sky with 7.63 rounds. But you’re talking about something as big as a Phalanx or Vulcan ADS. A small helicopter couldn’t carry it. A big helicopter wouldn’t be able to carry anything else.
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:24 PM
…looks like he’s shielding the growing colony of flies on his lip from the stress of more attention while phoning Hugo from the phone-thingy in his hand.
Lourdes on August 10, 2011 at 9:24 PM
7.62 rounds.
(Only Ted C shots 7.63, :-))
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:26 PM
well, wouldn’t that be just our style? Counter a $12.50 RPG with $120 million worth of gatling gun….on a Kiowa.…
/
ted c on August 10, 2011 at 9:26 PM
i go with whatever works…7.63–7.64, whatever
/
ted c on August 10, 2011 at 9:27 PM
In that picture it looks like he’s smelling the thumb that was probably up his ass all last night.
slickwillie2001 on August 10, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Utter bu**sh*t (not you but Carney and his boss).
*IF* what Carney is saying there was true, sincere, they’d have shown a distance perspective photo of the landing plane or some overall view of the landing strip.
INSTEAD, there’s that awful photo of the Awful Man in silhouette with his silly, insincere ‘salute’ toward the distance.
It’s an Obama-Photo-Op and a very disgusting one at that. I don’t know who Carney thinks believes him but it’s about ten people globally who might and they’re likely paid to applaud him.
William Amos on August 10, 2011 at 8:15 PM
Lourdes on August 10, 2011 at 9:29 PM
We had a chance a while back to advise on counter-measures we wanted on the aircrraft that are being flown in theater. The popular concensus was to combat the IR missiles. We now have active systems that can decoy an IR missile and have had chaff to combat radar for some time. We even have passive laser detection. But you can’t really defeat a dumb kinetic round. Not a bullet or an RPG. You cannot shield the entire aircraft in armor and you cannot make the aircraft systems so ridiculously redundant that it weighs more than the designed load for the aircraft. The crew is important for combating some of these systems in the way they deploy and maneuver their aircraft. And then sometimes, like in this case and in the case of my friends from Flipper 75, there doesn’t seem to be anything you can do when the enemy gets lucky.
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:36 PM
lol, and I’m batting zero tonight. Ted C “shoots” 7.63. (Or 7.64)
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:37 PM
In wartime, all of this information endangers security.
Just kill the s.o.b.’s and keep your mouths shut.
Victory would say enough, ultimately.
Which was rendered impossible once a Sharia Law Constitution was allowed in Afghanistan.
From that point on, it has been a complete waste of our troops for nothing.
Bomb the bastards from afar and screw the pu$$yfooting ROE’s.
The military spokesperson made note that we first “made sure there were no civilians” near the Taliban before we bombed them.
In REAL wartime, if you are near the enemy during an airstrike, you’re just SOL.
profitsbeard on August 10, 2011 at 9:46 PM
That’s what I was saying on the other thread. The ROE requires that someone investigate where bombs hit because if CIVCAS. Again, really guys? We ususlly drop bombs because we preferred to not put troops on the ground there in the first place.
hawkdriver on August 10, 2011 at 9:59 PM
“Yeah; 220. 221. Whatever it takes.”
- Jack Butler.
massrighty on August 10, 2011 at 10:01 PM
Hawk, you know a lot more about this than the rest of us, but if this ‘Nook was hit by an RPG, something I still doubt, it would have to have been launched at close range, maybe when just about to put down. I’ve fired those and had some fired at me, and their accuracy is so questionable, unless at close quarters. I’m thinking Iranian Stinger here. You?
TXUS on August 10, 2011 at 10:23 PM
Maybe an offshoot to the discussion – cnsnews has an article about the Red Cross being a bit alarmed in the escalation of attacks on medics esp in Bahrain, Yemen and Syria.
Well, Mr Obama- why did you release information that the CIA used medics to try to get close to the compound to possibly verify it was Bin Ladin.
Just wanted to remember that fiasco. We not only had blabbermouth biden confirm SEAL team 6 but we had someone tell the medic story- and they are paying for it, but it will never get the news coverage it deserves.
journeyintothewhirlwind on August 10, 2011 at 10:28 PM
Exacto-frikkin’-mundo!
Our “rules” merely make us easier and easier targets.
And win us no allegiance.
Just more dangerous enemies and more cyncial (“Are the American’s crazy or stupid or weak or what?”) Afghan “friends”.
profitsbeard on August 10, 2011 at 10:43 PM
I suspect that landing zone limitations prevented two aircraft. That’s the only really plausible reason I can come up with for only using one.
BadgerHawk on August 10, 2011 at 10:45 PM
Thanks for the memory jog, I was trying to remember who said that. I use another famous statement from that movie all the time, “your doing it wrong”. It fits so many situations.
Cindy Munford on August 10, 2011 at 10:46 PM
O does not love the troops like W. It is disturbing to watch him pretend.
exdeadhead on August 10, 2011 at 11:10 PM
1 LZ can land two aircraft…just not simultaneously. I think an MH47 was hard broke and they dipped into the plan B for airlift.
ted c on August 10, 2011 at 11:17 PM
Sounds like a big screw up to be in such a situation as those in the Chinook were put in, but not nearly as big a screw up as the Cluster Frack that still has the U.S. in Afcrapistan with 100,000 troops.
Lon Chaney on August 10, 2011 at 11:51 PM
Since Obowma lies to the American people on a daily basis…
… why is anyone believing this?
Seven Percent Solution on August 10, 2011 at 11:54 PM
What upsets me is hearing some scuttlebutt at work today that maybe all of the KIA SEALs and the interpreter were one and all involved in the OBL takedown.
The thinking is that our SEALs were given up as a tit for tat trade with the Taliban, with the upside that dead heros tell no tales.
As stuuupid, inspid and disgusting as this admin has been, I have to say that I can’t discount this as just another nutty conspiracy theory. Not with what we’ve seen of Fast & Furious et al. It just seems that there is too many within the SEAL community for such a betrayal to be kept secret long.
Have any of you guys heard this in your network? If this is true, forget about impeachment, this is downright treason.
AH_C on August 11, 2011 at 12:24 AM
Last word I have is that none of the operators killed were in the Bin Laden raid.
crosspatch on August 11, 2011 at 12:27 AM
I sure hope so. Damn Obie for doing everything wrong and being a disgrace to the office of the CINC, that we’d even speculate on this. Thanks.
AH_C on August 11, 2011 at 12:29 AM
Considering 75 was hit with both at the same time, anything is possible.
hawkdriver on August 11, 2011 at 12:41 AM
The real argument against this having been an Afghan set-up of some kind is that we trust the Afghans we’re working directly with.
There were 7 on the Chinook that went down. It’s seriously doubtful that the whole IRF scenario could have been staged by a Taliban commander (i.e., setting up an overrun situation for the Rangers in order to ambush the IRF they might call in), but the situation that did arise could have been exploited by the Taliban if they were tipped off about the IRF’s arrival plans at the LZ. Afghans knew about the IRF mission; some of them were on it. Others on the ground knew about it. That’s not evidence, it’s just opportunity, but the possibility shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.
That said, I’m skeptical that that’s what happened.
Agreed with most here that the RPG is unlikely to hit you but you can’t do much to defeat it. I wasn’t enamored of the RPG explanation, but they did confirm that the helo dropped in Kunar in July was hit by an RPG. Fire off enough and you can get lucky.
From the original briefings by military spokesmen, it was clear that the SEALs were filling the IRF role that day, apparently (from the language used) on a rotating basis. Having been on staffs that schedule things like that and have to worry about all the logistics behind a constantly available capability, one of my guesses as to why a CH versus an MH on this mission is that limited assets are in a pool, and a CH is what was puked out of the chute at the fateful moment. Could have been a maintenance issue with an MH, or where the aircraft had to come from. COuld have been a lot of things. The more things you’re trying to do with less, the more those “lot of things” pile up.
We don’t know enough details out here to second-guess the decisions made by those on-scene. On the face of it, sending a garden-variety CH-47 into an LZ that was likely to come under fire looks hard to justify. Limited assets/urgent requirement problem? Can’t say from here.
If I had to guess, I’d guess this incident was produced by an accumulation of marginally iffy/negative factors, and not by a back-alley set-up. An RPG got one of our helos in July. Sooner or later, the Taliban were going to get lucky with one again. They’ll never run out of them; the former-Soviet RPG is as common as the clap.
What I want to hear, as a bottom line, is that the military is looking at its operational profile — its assumptions, standing OPORDs, and resources — and figuring out how to prevent another such combination of vulnerabilities. I hope they can do that, and come up with an executable response, with what Obama’s giving them to work with.
J.E. Dyer on August 11, 2011 at 12:56 AM
That’s the most limp wristed salute I’ve ever seen…
And the White House photographer that was smuggled in sucks, too. Someone forgot the halo!
2ipa on August 11, 2011 at 1:04 AM
Apparently this wasn’t a rescue mission at all- Reuters has a new piece up detailing what happened. The Rangers were conducting a raid and when some of those present tried to flee (while the rest remained to fight) the SEALs were called in as they were acting as a back-up force.
Jay Mac on August 11, 2011 at 6:26 AM
In the past 20 years there’s vastly more evidence of RPGs taking down helicopters than anything else. In Afghanistan alone, at least 5 that have been documented, destroyed by RPG in Afghanistan. The QRF (Razor 01 & 03) Chinooks were destroyed in the battle of Takur Ghar by RPGs. The rescue chopper in Operation Red Wings (the book Lone Survivor is based on the operation and fall out) was destroyed by RPG.
In the last week of July of this year a Chinook was destroyed by RPG, though that one only resulted in some injuries.
Going back a ways, both 3 Black Hawks were either destroyed or forced to land due to RPGs.
There’s no evidence to indicate that the Taliban have suddenly started firing off stinger missiles, because if they were being successfully brought into the country, we’d have many, many more aircraft being shot down. Our tactics have been based on total air impunity for a long time.
Sgt Steve on August 11, 2011 at 7:03 AM
Going back a ways, both 3 Black Hawks were either destroyed or forced to land due to RPGs.It’s too early. Edited for less stupidity: Going back a ways, in Mogadishu three Black Hawks were either destroyed or forced out of the sky during TF Ranger’s operations.
Sgt Steve on August 11, 2011 at 7:04 AM
There is no evidence they are prolific. But there is a lot of evidence Iranian SA16 like IR missiles have been used. We are almost sure Flipper 75 was hit with one and an RPG near the Kajaki Dam. Many more IR missiles have been fired and been decoyed with flares.
hawkdriver on August 11, 2011 at 7:40 AM
The Chinook had enough room to carry all of the shooters on board, and also their gear. It is a large aircraft. Usually they fly in pairs, with a wingman. It is odd that only one would fly by itself, but not out of the question. You would always want to have another in case something happened. If they did fly two, we would have half the casualties most likely.
I received an email from ADM Pybus the other day, confirming the numbers that Ed has. It also asks that former SEALs, like myself, refrain from going into detail about tactics and units, for their safety. He highlights the recent family members who have spoken out on their losses.
This goes to the movie that the Obama adminstration is allowing to be produced before the election, and one that I have previously mentioned. It is against all that it means to be a SEAL to have your methods and units exposed like that, especially in a movie. Giving full access to producers to classified information for a movie, that not one SEAL wants produced is a slap in the face to the Teams, and it puts all of them at risk. The president is endangering all SEALs by allowing this movie to be made, only being blinded by his short-sighted goal of getting re-elected. I knew some of the guys that were killed on that mission, Kelsal and Reeves. Kelsal and I were both plankowners at ST-7. This certainly will not honor them, or thier service.
Patriot Vet on August 11, 2011 at 8:38 AM
There are really no single ship missions in theater anymore save for advance launches of MEDECAV if their chase aircraft breaks. But the unit is supposed to do a rat drill to launch another aircraft to join the MEDEVAC. The CH47 could have had an entirely different aircraft for a chase or sister ship. A lot of times depending where they go, an Apache is required to chase also.
hawkdriver on August 11, 2011 at 8:55 AM
Thanks Froggy and Patriot Vet for the insight.
toliver on August 11, 2011 at 9:50 AM
The truthers are already claiming it was to cover up the “bin laden zombie kill” disgusting.
abobo on August 11, 2011 at 4:33 PM