Open thread: Senate to vote on debt bill at 1 p.m., or maybe not; Update: Reid’s bill filibustered, 50/49; Update: Deal all but done? Update: Reid signs off on debt ceiling agreement

posted at 12:09 pm on July 31, 2011 by Allahpundit

They’re supposed to vote at 1 p.m., but according to Plouffe and another “Democrat familiar with the situation,” there’s still no bill. What’s the hold up? In all likelihood, they’re haggling over the “triggers” that’ll happen if the new Super Commission can’t agree on, or Congress won’t accept, new deficit reduction proposals later this year. Jen Rubin’s hearing the following from a Republican source on the Hill:

The second tranche works like this: If a new congressional commission introduces a plan totaling at least $1.5 trillion in cuts by Thanksgiving and it’s passed by Christmas there are no across-the-board cuts. Or, if a balanced budget amendment is passed and sent to the states, then across-the-board cuts are avoided. However, if there is no commission package passed AND the BBA is not passed and sent to the states, then across-the-board cuts of $1.2 trillion including Medicare and defense (the details of which aren’t final) go into effect. If the across-the board-cuts go into effect, the debt ceiling is only raised $1.2 trillion (likely insufficient to keep the government operating for long), meaning “we could do this all over again, depending on economic growth.” In other words, if we went to sequestration the total debt ceiling increase would be $2.1 trillion in two doses.

So there’s the BBA concession: Democrats can avoid new cuts in the second stage entirely if they pass the amendment. As for the automatic Medicare/Pentagon reductions, that’s obviously designed to make both sides in Congress think twice before rejecting the Super Commission’s recommendations. The precise formula for that is still being negotiated too. According to Jake Tapper, the White House wants fully 50 percent of the automatic cuts to affect the Pentagon and 50 percent to be spread across various other discretionary programs. GOP hawks won’t go for that, especially since the only alternative might be approving a Commission package that includes new revenues.

As I write this, the Senate has just begun its session and Reid is insisting that they’re “cautiously optimistic” about a deal but not there yet. Here’s your thread for tracking today’s drama. Exit question: How many Republican and Democratic votes will this bargain get in the House? Progressives are reportedly already murmuring about balking because of the lack of revenue in the deal, which means Boehner will need a majority of his previous Republican majority on yesterday’s vote to get this through. (Here’s one vote forecast.) I wonder if they’ll do it on the first try or, a la TARP, if it’ll take a market panic and subsequent re-vote to get it done. Stand by for updates.

Update: The post-deal spin starts before the deal is even struck:

“I don’t think we’ve been hurt at all,” McConnell said on CBS’ ‘Face the Nation’.

“The American people wanted us to do something about out-of-control spending and … the debt ceiling is going to produce what many people would believe is a complete change in the trajectory of the federal government beginning to get spending under control,” said McConnell, who is likely to be largely responsible for any package that wins muster with Congress.

Update: John Bolton sounds the alarm for hawks:

Every indication is that the debt-ceiling negotiations are leaving the defense budget in grave jeopardy. By exposing critical defense programs to disproportionate cuts as part of the “trigger mechanism,” there is a clear risk that key defense programs will be hollowed out.

While the trigger mechanism comes into play only if the Congressional negotiators fail to reach agreement on the second phase of spending cuts, it verges on catastrophe to take such a national security risk.

Defense has already taken hugely disproportionate cuts under President Obama, and there is simply no basis for expanding those cuts further. Republican negotiators must hold the line, since the Obama Administration plainly will not.

Update: Senate Republicans will huddle at 1:45.

Update: Turns out we did have a 1 p.m. vote after all. Now that there’s a deal in the works, Reid evidently decided that it wouldn’t panic markets if he introduced his current bill and let the GOP filibuster. Which they did: The vote was 50/49 (Reid voted no in order to preserve his right to reintroduce it, so they actually had 51 votes in favor.) Why he bothered forcing a vote, I simply don’t know. I guess it lets him use the “obstructionist Republicans” talking point for a few more hours, but that’ll evaporate as soon as there’s a deal. Oh well.

Stand by for the roll. At least two Dems voted no on this thing, intriguingly.

Update: Here we go. Via Fox reporter Chad Pergram, three Democrats voted no: Manchin, Ben Nelson, and of course Reid himself. So how’d they get to 50? Er, Scott Brown voted yes.

Update: Lefty Greg Sargent wonders how Republicans managed to use the threat of hitting the debt ceiling as leverage over Democrats when even most Republicans concede that it’s a scenario to be avoided at all costs.

Update: Ace is thinking about “trigger” gamesmanship down the line:

Republicans let the automatic cuts happen, but then immediately propose reinstating most of the money to Defense.

This winds up causing automatic cuts to domestic discretionary, but no big cuts to Defense; most Democrats would probably have to vote for this.

But it has a bad effect: We’d have approved $2.1 trillion in debt ceiling increase while only (guestimating) cutting, say, $1.6 – $1.7 trillion in cuts.

I.e. the GOP could try a defense version of “doctor fix.” Assuming Medicare is also part of the trigger, though, Democrats would respond by demanding that that money be reinstated too — and Republicans would have to vote for it to block the left’s “Paul Ryan and his conservative friends want to kill your grandma” election messaging.

Update: Come to think of it, if Medicare’s part of the trigger, then Democrats will follow Ace’s scheme to reinstate that money later even if the GOP doesn’t try the same move for defense. (Again, they do this all the time in “doctor fix.”) And even if the GOP does try the same move, why would Democrats care? They want to protect entitlements much more passionately than they want to see the Pentagon’s budget slashed, so they’d agree to reinstate the Pentagon’s money as the price of reinstating Medicare. The fundamental problem here, as always, is that Democrats don’t care about cutting spending. If there’s nothing built into this deal that prevents reinstating the money that would be cut when the trigger kicks in — and I’m not sure how there could be procedurally — then the trigger isn’t worth much.

Update: Dick Durbin identifies another reason why Democrats aren’t crazy about this deal, especially the cuts up front.

Update: Even some tea partiers are ready for compromise.

Update: Tapper says they’ve almost got it worked out:

The agreement looks like this: if the super-committee tasked with entitlement and tax reform fails to come up with $1.5 trillion in deficit reduction that passes Congress, the “neutron bomb” goes off, — as one Democrat put it — spending cuts that will hit the Pentagon budget most deeply, as well as Medicare providers (not beneficiaries) and other programs.

If the super-committee comes up with some deficit reduction but not $1.5 trillion, the triggers would make up the difference…

And the debt ceiling will be raised by $2.4 trillion in two tranches: $900 billion immediately, and the debt ceiling will be raised by an additional $1.5 trillion next year – either through passage of a Balanced Budget Amendment, which is unlikely, or with Congress voting its disapproval.

That’s the same as what Jen Rubin reported this morning. After the Super Commission announces its plan for deficit reduction, Congress has three options: (1) enact that plan, (2) pass a BBA and avoid any further immediate cuts entirely, or (3) do nothing and let across-the-board cuts go into effect, which would hit both Medicare and the Pentagon. That’s the last piece of this to be negotiated — how much of those cuts would be to defense specifically as opposed to being truly across-the-board? The harder the military would be hit, the more pressure the GOP will be under to avoid those cuts by passing the Super Committee plan, which could of course include taxes. And that’s not the only tax pressure: “Democrats say –- if tax reform doesn’t happen through the super-committee, President Obama will veto any extension of Bush tax cuts when they come up at the end of 2012, further creating an incentive for the super-committee to act.”

It sounds like the House will vote on this tomorrow before the Senate will. That struck me as backwards at first blush, since having the Senate rubber-stamp it first will put pressure on the House to follow suit. But since the House will have a harder time with this than the Senate, the thinking presumably is that the House needs to be free to tweak the bill to get the votes if need be.

Update: How many Democratic votes will this thing get in the House? Don’t answer until you’ve read this. Boehner may need his caucus to carry the load yet again. One key liberal objection, as Weigel notes, is that tax hikes aren’t one of the triggers that would kick in if Congress rejects the Super Committee. The GOP simply won’t agree to that, which is why Democrats are demanding heavy Pentagon cuts as a lesser substitute.

Update: Byron York on Obama’s nuclear weapon:

As the hours to Tuesday’s deadline tick away, President Obama will have increasing leverage in his negotiations with Republicans. The president has a nuclear weapon which he has not used thus far in the crisis but will certainly use if the issue remains unresolved in the next 24 hours. That weapon is an address to the nation in which a sober-faced Obama reluctantly lays out what government spending will continue past the debt deadline and what spending will not continue. Many insiders, both Republican and Democrat, believe Obama has been badly overexposed at times in the debt battle, but that would be a speech everyone watches. The president would be the man dealing with disaster (even if it is one he helped create), while he dispatches aides and surrogates to blame it all on GOP radicalism.

True, one last eleventh-hour bid to panic the public might shake loose the last few votes they need to pass this thing. But see the previous update. I’m not so sure the GOP is his big problem this time.

Update (Tina Korbe): Fox News is now reporting that Harry Reid has signed off on the latest iteration of the debt ceiling increase agreement, pending caucus approval.

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Not bankruptcy really. But I do believe we are very close to handling all that we can as a country with debt. There will be some sort of collapse though. How big I am not sure. I know it will hurt. I also know it will cause the government to truly take cutting the budget and taxes seriously.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:11 PM

Wrong. The government will NEVER do that unless WE force them to. Believing that is folly.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:39 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:34 PM

Is it really is that hard to wait until November?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:40 PM

Is it not easier to force the GOP to take more drastic stands when you are the reason they have all branches of government then it would be to just have a House? I think it is and that is the prize.

Er… why should the GOP listen to you if they have nothing left to get out of you? I clearly disagree here.

Right now, I’m trying to figure out a way to not elect Obama next year, but not give the GOP anything, either. If the GOP gains power, they will see it as a defense of everything they have done prior to it… which would include this debt ceiling debate.

This is pure learning theory here, which is one of my specialties.

I guess, for me, the best solution would be for the Tea Party to break off from the GOP, but endorse the GOP candidate for the Presidency (i.e., not put forth a Presidential candidate of their own). Best case from that is that we get about 30-40 Tea Party Congressmen, with the rest split between the GOP and the Democrats. That way, if the GOP want something that the Tea Party doesn’t, they can block it tranparently.

Scott H on July 31, 2011 at 5:41 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:39 PM

Actually, believe that the government won’t cut spending after a collapse is folly. You don’t understand that there won’t be a choice.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:43 PM

Scott H on July 31, 2011 at 5:41 PM

Push all of your people for the Senate and get Obama out of the oval office.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:45 PM

That weapon is an address to the nation in which a sober-faced Obama reluctantly lays out what government spending will continue past the debt deadline and what spending will not continue.

OH NOESSSSSS!!!! THE HORROR!!!! You mean the presidents Secret Weapon is……A Budget? Something he hasn’t been able to cobble together for 2 yrs.

The GOP should have a field day with that.

Fighton03 on July 31, 2011 at 5:46 PM

Actually, believe that the government won’t cut spending after a collapse is folly. You don’t understand that there won’t be a choice.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:43 PM

With all due respect… once you collapse there is nothing left. Collapse is defined below, for your ease.

“col·lapse verb \kə-ˈlaps\
col·lapsedcol·laps·ing

Definition of COLLAPSE
intransitive verb
1: to fall or shrink together abruptly and completely : fall into a jumbled or flattened mass through the force of external pressure
2: to break down completely : disintegrate
3: to cave or fall in or give way
4: to suddenly lose force, significance, effectiveness, or worth
5: to break down in vital energy, stamina, or self-control through exhaustion or disease; especially : to fall helpless or unconscious

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:47 PM

Jesse: Sure. And what’s my insurance that the GOP will be any better in the long run than the Democrats?

As long as we let them be the two poles, they’ll both screw us in a heartbeat.

We need more poles.

Scott H on July 31, 2011 at 5:49 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:40 PM

Wait until November of 2012 on what might happen? Yes.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:52 PM

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:47 PM

And so the point is what? Yeah the economy will be corrected by partial or complete collapse from the debt. That means simply they can’t run anything special but the basics. Talk about cutting spending…

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:54 PM

Obama DOES have a budget!!!

/Ray Stevens

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:54 PM

Byron York on Obama’s nuclear weapon:

That’s bunk. If Barky goes before the nation to explain who gets paid and who doesn’t, he loses. Big time. Sometimes pundits like York write stuff as if they’re paid by the word and behind on their rent. Obama is a cool breeze away from an approval rating in the 30′s. If he has to go before the nation and make the speech York says he’ll have to make, Zero is in an awful lot of trouble. Maybe he can get Clinton to do it for him…

joejm65 on July 31, 2011 at 5:55 PM

Scott H on July 31, 2011 at 5:49 PM

Then go waste your time with a third party. No one will stop you.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:52 PM

Would me giving you a guarantee help?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:56 PM

And so the point is what? Yeah the economy will be corrected by partial or complete collapse from the debt. That means simply they can’t run anything special but the basics. Talk about cutting spending…

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:54 PM

:::shakes head:::

Google “Chaos” and see what that brings back. Look ahead my friend. If this collapses there will be massive chaos.

We will be downgraded. I’m buying silver.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:57 PM

The lamentations of the progressives is a marvelous thing, but not sure it makes swallowing this deal easier.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 6:01 PM

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:57 PM

We will be downgraded regardless. Look at Moody and what they had to say, none of these plans will work. And yes that includes anything you may like. I never said I know how bad a correction would be, it could be chaotic or it could be managed. Depends on how bad the debt will be before hand. Look, those who think a correction won’t happen can live happily in their thoughts. History will prove you wrong though. Silver and gold won’t help. But it’s worth a shot right?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:02 PM

Look, those who think a correction won’t happen can live happily in their thoughts. History will prove you wrong though. Silver and gold won’t help. But it’s worth a shot right?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:02 PM

Exactly. We will be downgraded. Now, POTUS is trotting his purple lips out there and declaring (if you can even believe this) that HE will be the one to decide who gets paid. This crisis was manufactured from the beginning and this was the end game they sought.

All this kabuki theater is sickening. I have elderly parents and they are scared out of their wits to have Obama be the one who decides if they get paid.

The House should decide who gets what, not that big effing POS squatting in the WH.

I wish he’d go on a vacation for the next 18 months and leave our seniors alone! Cripes.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 6:06 PM

Does the CBO have to score this final deal before it really is a final deal?

mimi1220 on July 31, 2011 at 6:08 PM

If he has to go before the nation and make the speech York says he’ll have to make, Zero is in an awful lot of trouble. Maybe he can get Clinton to do it for him…

joejm65 on July 31, 2011 at 5:55 PM

Carter will be all over the air saying “Miss me yet?”

pedestrian on July 31, 2011 at 6:09 PM

Would me giving you a guarantee help?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:56 PM

I believe you would make those guarantees with the best will in the world. Unfortunately no one can determine the unlimited number of factors into how people will feel in Nov. 2012. That’s why we always need to strive for the best deal we can get because we don’t know what events will bring us tomorrow.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:09 PM

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 6:06 PM

We can only hope he decides to take a long golf game. Like you said, preferably for 18 months. I wouldn’t expected him to do anything less then try to take more power for himself.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:10 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:09 PM

I don’t disagree with that. My only problem is those putting their hopes in any type of budget deal that was going to really cut anything. Everyone’s sacred cow and so much more would have to be cut to truly make a difference that it would never happen. And sorry to say, but it won’t. The economy will have to correct itself in some way for anything real to happen.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:14 PM

Gold down $15.10

BallisticBob on July 31, 2011 at 6:17 PM

The more muddled this deal becomes, the less damage will be done to the GOP. And it it includes some items on Medicare, that is even better because it will preempt the “Mediscare” campaign that Pelosi was working to develop…

This Country cannot sustain another four years of Obama. I would love to see Romney for 8 followed by Perry for another 8…then all will be right with America…

RedSoxNation on July 31, 2011 at 6:20 PM

Reid signed off, McConnell has not.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 6:21 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:14 PM

That’s why just any R won’t do. We need people willing to think and act large. The sooner it happens the less of a hit those sacred cows will have to take.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:21 PM

BallisticBob on July 31, 2011 at 6:17 PM

And yet I still can’t afford it.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:22 PM

How many Dems in the House will have to help throw Granny off the cliff by voting for this deal? What are your guesses?

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM

It’s obvious that the Ruling Class isn’t serious about cutting spending. They negotiate in secret behind closed doors because their efforts cannot survive scrutiny. This is not the open and transparent government that Americans expect. The founding fathers would not approve.

I don’t trust the product of such a corrupt endeavor. I actually do not support raising the debt ceiling at all without stringent new conditions along the lines of CCB, but from a pragmatic point of view, since the ceiling is going to be raises anyway, I think Boehner should hold a press conference wherein he decries the Democrat’s lack of seriousness in cutting spending and proposes a 6 month clean debt ceiling hike instead of the POS coming out of the Senate.

If done right, I think that is probably Boehner’s best course of action at this point. The Democrats can’t possibly justify refusing a clean hike and at least we don’t have to reward the Ruling Class with a bunch of fake bullet points on their fictional resumes.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 6:25 PM

We will be downgraded regardless. Look at Moody and what they had to say, none of these plans will work. And yes that includes anything you may like.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:02 PM

actually now they are saying that we won’t lose the AAA rating but they will revise the outlook from ‘stable’ to ‘negative’..in general most investment funds are barred from holding anything but AAA-rated investments…but since we will still keep the AAA rating, not all hope is lost…

jimver on July 31, 2011 at 6:25 PM

Is this agreement (not yet concrete) unconstitutional?

ProudPalinFan on July 31, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:21 PM

For me it’s better then getting nothing. Being able to pressure a “RINO” is easier then a Democrat. So yes I will take a moderate Republican I can talk to over a Bernie Sanders any day.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:27 PM

If Boehner decides to have a press conference and announce a clean short term debt hike, he should use the occasion to decry all of the blatant misinformation disseminated by the MSM in their efforts to spread fear and hysteria and manipulate the political course of the country.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 6:29 PM

Well the precious metals markets think a deal is going to happen. Gold is down over 1% or $17.00. Price is $1,614.00 per ounce. Buy the dip, if you can, because it wont last. After all 2.5 trillion in fiat currency/debt isn’t bearish for gold in the long run!

Weight of Glory on July 31, 2011 at 6:29 PM

jimver on July 31, 2011 at 6:25 PM

Well that is some good news at least. Thanks for the update Jim.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:30 PM

First!

Bishop on July 31, 2011 at 6:30 PM

Bishop on July 31, 2011 at 6:30 PM

Lol!

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:33 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:27 PM

Unfortunately those aren’t usually the two choices. You get the likes of Sen. Brown, who has to kowtow to his very liberal constituency, who is he going to listen to? Or someone like Lindsay Graham who you can’t trust as far as you can throw him. And then there is the Maverick who cares more about press coverage than the people who elected him. I don’t like or use the term RINO, all of these people are Republicans, I’m interested in conservatives.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:35 PM

At a time when China is continuing to invest in its military capacity, currently developing aircraft carriers, and a missile system to defeat US Navy Carrier Battle Groups in the Pacific, it is hard to understand why Reps would allow an automatic trigger to cut defense.

Yes, the Pentagon has supported closing unnecessary military bases; and we should locate and cut any waste; but we cannot afford to create a hollow force. Our military deserves the best equipment we can provide; as the US military must remain the preeminent military force in the world to protect our liberty.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 5:13 PM

I’m just as worried about the Muslim Brotherhood Spring going on in the Middle East.

slickwillie2001 on July 31, 2011 at 6:39 PM

If done right, I think that is probably Boehner’s best course of action at this point. The Democrats can’t possibly justify refusing a clean hike and at least we don’t have to reward the Ruling Class with a bunch of fake bullet points on their fictional resumes.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 6:25 PM

Isn’t it too late for that? Love the idea, but I think it’s too late.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 6:39 PM

Isn’t it too late for that? Love the idea, but I think it’s too late.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 6:39 PM

No, I think that I heard he was undecided, and that means he can bug out and release a clean bill. There’s no way the Democrats can resist a clean, corruption-free bill.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 6:41 PM

No, I think that I heard he was undecided, and that means he can bug out and release a clean bill. There’s no way the Democrats can resist a clean, corruption-free bill.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 6:41 PM

Wouldn’t that be great? I mean, after all this kabuki going on; seniors being threatened, Military pay being threatened; the dem’s posturing, the RINO’s caving, the POTUS absent and missing his fundraisers….

And the end result is: “Here you go Obama. Here’s 6 months on our credit card. That’s all you’re going to get”

Wow, I can dream….

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 6:43 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/congress-closing-deal-avert-us-default-163724983.html

Big cuts in government spending would be phased in over a decade. Thousands of programs — the Park Service, Internal Revenue Service and Labor Department accounts among them — could be trimmed to levels last seen years ago.

No benefit cuts were envisioned for the Social Security pension system or Medicare, the federal program that provides health care payments to the elderly. But other programs would be scoured for savings. Taxes would be unlikely to rise

William Amos on July 31, 2011 at 6:44 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:35 PM

I see your point and it’s a good one. But to be practical (please don’t think I am saying you are not) there was no one else we could have gotten in Brown’s district. No liberal there was ever going to elect a conservative. So we got the best option we could. He can still be pressured by other Republicans. I believe this is more about feeling comfortable for them then anything else. With no backup from the Oval office or most of the Senate, sure they will cave sometimes.

But if we take both Houses (keep the Presidency out of this for a moment) they will feel much more comfortable going much more conservative because they will have that backing.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:44 PM

O/T: August HA straw poll is up in the Green Room if anyone is interested.

Kataklysmic on July 31, 2011 at 6:49 PM

Kataklysmic on July 31, 2011 at 6:49 PM

Thanks Kataklysmic! This will be the first poll I have taken.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:55 PM

Regardless of what bill actually gets passed, if the GOP doesn’t mount a full scale press to make sure the voters understand that the Dems had no interest in compromise but wanted capitulation, we deserve to take the sh*t that the Left will shovel on us. It’s way past time to stop letting the Dems dump on the Tea Party and the GOP insiders better understand that.

katiejane on July 31, 2011 at 6:55 PM

As forecast.. the GOP blinked. 1 trillion over 10 years and by then our debt will be $24 trillion…. hooray!

ultracon on July 31, 2011 at 6:56 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 6:44 PM

Don’t worry, I’m not offended, even if we disagreed on everything. I like Brown, I donated to his campaign and stayed up late on the HotAir open thread on election night. It was a trip. I’m just not blind to what he has to do to keep his seat. What I really want is people who don’t care about keeping their seat! I think what bothers me is that they won’t even try. Cut spending, stop borrowing, it’s not like they can’t go back if it doesn’t work. Instead it’s the same old engrained way of business that never changes anything. We should be showing the world how it’s done, instead we try hard to be Europe.

“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don’t need it and hell where they already have it.” -Ronald Reagan …

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:58 PM

BallisticBob on July 31, 2011 at 6:17 PM

So gold is down some? Soros must be selling a little of his 11 Tons:-)

bluefox on July 31, 2011 at 7:06 PM

I hope the teaparty freshmen make a stand in the house and stop this crap sandwich.

How many federal employees earn 175+k again? How many parasites are collecting SSI? How much money are we giving away in foreign aid?

Why is it that no one talks about the WASTE?

The dems immediately talk about cutting social security and the military but not all the redundant useless government agencies.

dogsoldier on July 31, 2011 at 7:08 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 6:58 PM

Yeah I know what you mean. I hope you don’t regret your vote for him or your support. I think the only ones who really care about losing their jobs are the ones that are in tough states to keep. They can’t go full blown conservative even if they want to. Then we get a Democrat in their place. I think you take your time and let a liberal state warm up to your ideas and then increase your conservatism a little at a time.

But not everyone seems to be willing to be patient for it. or for the calvary to arrive to back up the others that maybe wavering. I don’t like the idea of electing these people then turning our back on them when they do something we might not approve of. I don’t expect them to be perfect and I’m sure most don’t. If we just say “You didn’t do what I wanted you too right on the spot so screw you”, then yes they will stop listening to us and become another spoke in the machine.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:11 PM

6:24 pm
Boehner Balking at Debt Deal
by Joseph B. White

House Speaker John Boehner (R., Ohio) appears to be balking at the debt ceiling deal that Senate Democratic Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada has signed. Mr. Boehner is concerned about provisions in the deal that could lead to sharp cuts in military spending, say people familiar with the situation. House aides have warned that just because Mr. Reid has signed off on the deal doesn’t mean the deal is done.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/07/31/live-blog-the-u-s-debt-battle-2/#

Viator on July 31, 2011 at 7:13 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:11 PM

I don’t live in Massachusetts, I just thought it would hysterical for a Republican to win Teddy’s seat. I won’t be giving him any more money, he’s on his own.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:24 PM

I hate these last minute deals. This is complicated and these frantic revisions will only serve to make a bad bill worse. These politicians are scum. This is the same way they did the stimulus and Obamacare–always on the weekend, late at night, last minute. There ought to be a law against this kind of last minute crap that affects the American people as much as it does. I’m so disgusted with this government.

KickandSwimMom on July 31, 2011 at 7:26 PM

I think the frustration is that: many of us who attended the first Tea Parties and were raving about our fiscal situation in 2009 are appalled now that we’ve had two years of Democrats holding all the purse strings. Some of us busted our butts off getting Republicans sent to DC to stop this crap. While we were fighting to take over the GOP from the inside, we were also fighting to convince our Tea Party brethren to not go 3rd party and hamstring our efforts. To be pissed off about this debt ceiling crisis and resolution is natural.

For many of us personally, we’ve been learning how to take care of ourselves. My family bought a house that can easily house my parents comfortably too. We’ve been raising sheep and chickens, learning to garden and can our produce, teaching ourselves to be more self-sufficient. My husband can build just about anything. The only thing we can’t do is shoot a gun, but that’s on the agenda. Some of us know it’s going to get ugly and we are getting to know our neighbors and their skills. We’ve been prepping in our own way for the s–t to hit the fan.

It’s easy to be angry, and right now I’m going to dwell on my outrage. But, it is imperative that we not lose sight of the goal. First, we get rid of the Democrats, then we focus on the Republicans who refuse to see our way. This is about priorities. We can primary our weak links, but we have to see the big picture which is the Senate and the WH.

piglet on July 31, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:11 PM

I don’t judge on a few votes but I also don’t think the Republicans are the cavalry. The proved that when they had complete control and spent like a drunken Democrat.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:27 PM

piglet on July 31, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Hope more people take your advice and keep their focus.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:24 PM

Ah ok. Well I will be supporting him with all the others by doing my best to send help in the way of a Senate takeover and a Republican President. :)

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:32 PM

I’m so disgusted with this government.

KickandSwimMom on July 31, 2011 at 7:26 PM

+1

It used to be our government, now it’s theirs.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 7:32 PM

KickandSwimMom on July 31, 2011 at 7:26 PM

I so agree with that. These late at night, behind closed doors discussions and meetings should not be needed. It’s like we the taxpayer have no right to know anything.

Isn’t it strange, that if it weren’t for the TV news(such as it is) and the Internet, we’d be 100% clueless.

bluefox on July 31, 2011 at 7:34 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Then you of course vote the ones out you don’t like. Which is what happened and the Democrats took over. Now we are worse off then we were during a Republican binge.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:36 PM

HEY Bishop

You should go to Instapundit and see the Dilbert comic. I think you will like it.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:36 PM

piglet on July 31, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Wow, Piglet, you’ve really been preparing. We grow a lot of our food, but raising pigs and chickens has been a bridge to far up to this point. We may have to rethink it though the way things are going.

KickandSwimMom on July 31, 2011 at 7:37 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:36 PM

I’d like to primary my congressman, Mica. He’s head of the transportation committee and even after assuring me that he is against adding more railroads that we need to subsidize, he has tried to sneak another one in. I’m not in a trusting mood.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:38 PM

Second !! (Bishop always beats me … ;-) )
Seriously, does anyone know when we’ll see the next vote ??
Did I hear tmrw ??

pambi on July 31, 2011 at 7:39 PM

Now we are worse off then we were during a Republican binge.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:36 PM

Well you want me to look at the long game, maybe one day these idiots will figure out that I am serious of getting rid of debt and big government. We gave them another chance in 2010 with the House and a Senate that can be filibustered, what they do with it is all on them.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Then you of course vote the ones out you don’t like. Which is what happened and the Democrats took over. Now we are worse off then we were during a Republican binge.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:36 PM

The same old GOP isn’t going to save us, they’ll only slow our descent over the cliff, but we’ll have gone over nonetheless.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 7:42 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:38 PM

You think you have it bad? I have to deal with David Wu and our wonderful governor John Kitzhaber. Talk about bad karma.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:43 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:38 PM

You mean like a Railroad to nowhere? LOL Sorry, it just reminded me of the bridges to nowhere.

Another thot: At times like these, I like the British “no confidence” motions:-)

bluefox on July 31, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:43 PM

Yeah but he wears cool outfits. My guy wears some kind of dead rodent on his head.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Long game is sending more troops and then pressure for more change. I think though that some people don’t want to pressure because it’s “too hard”.

FloatingRock on July 31, 2011 at 7:42 PM

Then your choice is what?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:47 PM

bluefox on July 31, 2011 at 7:44 PM

I don’t know if they think they are gutsy when they lie to you are just hope you are that stupid. Either way not a winning campaign gimmick.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:47 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:45 PM

I would trade with you in a heartbeat. I don’t my state to be known to have the first furry congressman ever. Talk about congresscritter…

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:49 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:47 PM

We need people who don’t want to be there. I know that sounds counterintuitive but they need to want to be at home and would probably be more prosperous if they weren’t in D.C. Congress should be public service, not a vocation.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:50 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:49 PM

I have to admit that I can now see why moderate conservatives are acceptable to you. You can only dream of such a chance. You have my undying sympathies.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:52 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:50 PM

I agree that they shouldn’t see government as a career. But yeah I want them to want to be there and take what they do seriously. We already have a President who doesn’t want to be there. He would rather be out golfing.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:54 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:54 PM

Moderate conservative over a pervert for the win! :)

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:57 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:54 PM

To bad he’s as good at that as he is at everything else or he would probably quit to go pro. I live to dream.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:58 PM

*

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:52 PM

Stupid quotes.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:59 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 7:58 PM

Lol. He still has time. Maybe you should send him letter letting him know he doesn’t need all this governing hassle and work more on his long swing.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:01 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 7:59 PM

Expand please. Sometimes I am bit slow on the uptake.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:02 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:02 PM

Oh no that was my mistake. I accidentally quoted myself when I wasn’t meaning too. It happens to me a lot. No one listens to me so I just end up quoting myself. :|

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:06 PM

This is a deal to put off the real economic war during the next election. Who is a fault? Every idiot that voted for the Democrat party.

Hening on July 31, 2011 at 8:08 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:06 PM

The comments would indicate that you were listen to today. I hope you will ignore the abuse and comment all the time.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:11 PM

No one listens to me so I just end up quoting myself. :|
Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:06 PM

Hold on there, Jasper, I listen to you.

Did you say something?

Bishop on July 31, 2011 at 8:15 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:11 PM

Lol thank you. I didn’t consider any of it abuse, just lively debate. We all probably agree with each other more then we disagree if the truth were known. So I take it all in stride knowing we are all on the same team when it comes right down to to. :)

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:17 PM

I just wonder, if anyone has picked up on the seemingly obscure clue that points to this happy go lucky deal amounting to a seventeen trillion dollar debt ceiling with no backstop against a majority in both houses and a liberal President blasting right through it?

Total estimated revenue this year 15 trillion.

Greece-y slope anyone.

Speakup on July 31, 2011 at 8:18 PM

Bishop on July 31, 2011 at 8:15 PM

Lol! Bishop you always listen to me. It’s the only reason why I post. :P

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:19 PM

At least we have a while longer to get our houses in order (finances completely out of debt) before the collapse.

One party (the Progressive Democrats) wants to bankrupt us, and or take ALL THE WEALTH of the country to continue it’s spending (and perpetuate it’s power).

One party (the GOP) wants to silently agree to the power grabbing of the first party so they can eat the crumbs of the table of the Democrats (and maybe every once in awhile they’ll get the big Majority leaders office).

The other party (the unofficial one) has come to D.C. on principles of limited government, of a balanced budget, and personal liberty and choice. They are demonized by the D.C. Cabal of Evil (the media, the pols and the talking heads). They are called “terrorists” and “hostage takers”.

PRINCIPLES FIRST, PARTY SECOND………..

Which party is your party?

PappyD61 on July 31, 2011 at 8:21 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:17 PM

Absolutely.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:22 PM

Which party is your party?

PappyD61 on July 31, 2011 at 8:21 PM

The one agree with the most?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:24 PM

Well all I have to get going. I hope you have a goodnight and Monday Cindy Munford & Bishop. And the same goes for all of HotAir! :)

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:27 PM

Speakup on July 31, 2011 at 8:18 PM

I can’t make heads or tails of that link but 17 trillion debt limit? We deserve our rating lowered.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:27 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 8:27 PM

Thanks for the talk you have a good one also.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:29 PM

If the eventual deal does not, at the very least, close corporate loopholes and big business subsidies, I hope the Democratic House and Senate progressives vote it down. There’s no reason the entire burden of cuts should fall on the middle class while millionaires and billionaire keep their tax perks.

Multi-millionaire Rush Limbaugh has convinced the gullible dittos that his taxes shouldn’t go up, but that the middle class and the poor should take the hit.

Whatever the deal is, I hope it fails.
Let President Obama be compelled to invoke the 14th amendment, raise the debt ceiling into 2013 and leave the Teabaggers empty handed.

chumpThreads on July 31, 2011 at 8:34 PM

chumpThreads on July 31, 2011 at 8:34 PM

Good plan, now take it to the open thread.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:50 PM

Good plan, now take it to the open thread.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 8:50 PM

I thought this was the open thread.

chumpThreads on July 31, 2011 at 9:04 PM

chumpThreads on July 31, 2011 at 9:04 PM

LOL! So it is, there is a new one on the new bill, sorry.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 9:09 PM

Gold down $15.10

BallisticBob on July 31, 2011 at 6:17 PM

Asian shares rise as US debt deal announced

In the long run I don’t think it matters much, but just some info.

Dr. ZhivBlago on July 31, 2011 at 9:56 PM

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