Open thread: Senate to vote on debt bill at 1 p.m., or maybe not; Update: Reid’s bill filibustered, 50/49; Update: Deal all but done? Update: Reid signs off on debt ceiling agreement

posted at 12:09 pm on July 31, 2011 by Allahpundit

They’re supposed to vote at 1 p.m., but according to Plouffe and another “Democrat familiar with the situation,” there’s still no bill. What’s the hold up? In all likelihood, they’re haggling over the “triggers” that’ll happen if the new Super Commission can’t agree on, or Congress won’t accept, new deficit reduction proposals later this year. Jen Rubin’s hearing the following from a Republican source on the Hill:

The second tranche works like this: If a new congressional commission introduces a plan totaling at least $1.5 trillion in cuts by Thanksgiving and it’s passed by Christmas there are no across-the-board cuts. Or, if a balanced budget amendment is passed and sent to the states, then across-the-board cuts are avoided. However, if there is no commission package passed AND the BBA is not passed and sent to the states, then across-the-board cuts of $1.2 trillion including Medicare and defense (the details of which aren’t final) go into effect. If the across-the board-cuts go into effect, the debt ceiling is only raised $1.2 trillion (likely insufficient to keep the government operating for long), meaning “we could do this all over again, depending on economic growth.” In other words, if we went to sequestration the total debt ceiling increase would be $2.1 trillion in two doses.

So there’s the BBA concession: Democrats can avoid new cuts in the second stage entirely if they pass the amendment. As for the automatic Medicare/Pentagon reductions, that’s obviously designed to make both sides in Congress think twice before rejecting the Super Commission’s recommendations. The precise formula for that is still being negotiated too. According to Jake Tapper, the White House wants fully 50 percent of the automatic cuts to affect the Pentagon and 50 percent to be spread across various other discretionary programs. GOP hawks won’t go for that, especially since the only alternative might be approving a Commission package that includes new revenues.

As I write this, the Senate has just begun its session and Reid is insisting that they’re “cautiously optimistic” about a deal but not there yet. Here’s your thread for tracking today’s drama. Exit question: How many Republican and Democratic votes will this bargain get in the House? Progressives are reportedly already murmuring about balking because of the lack of revenue in the deal, which means Boehner will need a majority of his previous Republican majority on yesterday’s vote to get this through. (Here’s one vote forecast.) I wonder if they’ll do it on the first try or, a la TARP, if it’ll take a market panic and subsequent re-vote to get it done. Stand by for updates.

Update: The post-deal spin starts before the deal is even struck:

“I don’t think we’ve been hurt at all,” McConnell said on CBS’ ‘Face the Nation’.

“The American people wanted us to do something about out-of-control spending and … the debt ceiling is going to produce what many people would believe is a complete change in the trajectory of the federal government beginning to get spending under control,” said McConnell, who is likely to be largely responsible for any package that wins muster with Congress.

Update: John Bolton sounds the alarm for hawks:

Every indication is that the debt-ceiling negotiations are leaving the defense budget in grave jeopardy. By exposing critical defense programs to disproportionate cuts as part of the “trigger mechanism,” there is a clear risk that key defense programs will be hollowed out.

While the trigger mechanism comes into play only if the Congressional negotiators fail to reach agreement on the second phase of spending cuts, it verges on catastrophe to take such a national security risk.

Defense has already taken hugely disproportionate cuts under President Obama, and there is simply no basis for expanding those cuts further. Republican negotiators must hold the line, since the Obama Administration plainly will not.

Update: Senate Republicans will huddle at 1:45.

Update: Turns out we did have a 1 p.m. vote after all. Now that there’s a deal in the works, Reid evidently decided that it wouldn’t panic markets if he introduced his current bill and let the GOP filibuster. Which they did: The vote was 50/49 (Reid voted no in order to preserve his right to reintroduce it, so they actually had 51 votes in favor.) Why he bothered forcing a vote, I simply don’t know. I guess it lets him use the “obstructionist Republicans” talking point for a few more hours, but that’ll evaporate as soon as there’s a deal. Oh well.

Stand by for the roll. At least two Dems voted no on this thing, intriguingly.

Update: Here we go. Via Fox reporter Chad Pergram, three Democrats voted no: Manchin, Ben Nelson, and of course Reid himself. So how’d they get to 50? Er, Scott Brown voted yes.

Update: Lefty Greg Sargent wonders how Republicans managed to use the threat of hitting the debt ceiling as leverage over Democrats when even most Republicans concede that it’s a scenario to be avoided at all costs.

Update: Ace is thinking about “trigger” gamesmanship down the line:

Republicans let the automatic cuts happen, but then immediately propose reinstating most of the money to Defense.

This winds up causing automatic cuts to domestic discretionary, but no big cuts to Defense; most Democrats would probably have to vote for this.

But it has a bad effect: We’d have approved $2.1 trillion in debt ceiling increase while only (guestimating) cutting, say, $1.6 – $1.7 trillion in cuts.

I.e. the GOP could try a defense version of “doctor fix.” Assuming Medicare is also part of the trigger, though, Democrats would respond by demanding that that money be reinstated too — and Republicans would have to vote for it to block the left’s “Paul Ryan and his conservative friends want to kill your grandma” election messaging.

Update: Come to think of it, if Medicare’s part of the trigger, then Democrats will follow Ace’s scheme to reinstate that money later even if the GOP doesn’t try the same move for defense. (Again, they do this all the time in “doctor fix.”) And even if the GOP does try the same move, why would Democrats care? They want to protect entitlements much more passionately than they want to see the Pentagon’s budget slashed, so they’d agree to reinstate the Pentagon’s money as the price of reinstating Medicare. The fundamental problem here, as always, is that Democrats don’t care about cutting spending. If there’s nothing built into this deal that prevents reinstating the money that would be cut when the trigger kicks in — and I’m not sure how there could be procedurally — then the trigger isn’t worth much.

Update: Dick Durbin identifies another reason why Democrats aren’t crazy about this deal, especially the cuts up front.

Update: Even some tea partiers are ready for compromise.

Update: Tapper says they’ve almost got it worked out:

The agreement looks like this: if the super-committee tasked with entitlement and tax reform fails to come up with $1.5 trillion in deficit reduction that passes Congress, the “neutron bomb” goes off, — as one Democrat put it — spending cuts that will hit the Pentagon budget most deeply, as well as Medicare providers (not beneficiaries) and other programs.

If the super-committee comes up with some deficit reduction but not $1.5 trillion, the triggers would make up the difference…

And the debt ceiling will be raised by $2.4 trillion in two tranches: $900 billion immediately, and the debt ceiling will be raised by an additional $1.5 trillion next year – either through passage of a Balanced Budget Amendment, which is unlikely, or with Congress voting its disapproval.

That’s the same as what Jen Rubin reported this morning. After the Super Commission announces its plan for deficit reduction, Congress has three options: (1) enact that plan, (2) pass a BBA and avoid any further immediate cuts entirely, or (3) do nothing and let across-the-board cuts go into effect, which would hit both Medicare and the Pentagon. That’s the last piece of this to be negotiated — how much of those cuts would be to defense specifically as opposed to being truly across-the-board? The harder the military would be hit, the more pressure the GOP will be under to avoid those cuts by passing the Super Committee plan, which could of course include taxes. And that’s not the only tax pressure: “Democrats say –- if tax reform doesn’t happen through the super-committee, President Obama will veto any extension of Bush tax cuts when they come up at the end of 2012, further creating an incentive for the super-committee to act.”

It sounds like the House will vote on this tomorrow before the Senate will. That struck me as backwards at first blush, since having the Senate rubber-stamp it first will put pressure on the House to follow suit. But since the House will have a harder time with this than the Senate, the thinking presumably is that the House needs to be free to tweak the bill to get the votes if need be.

Update: How many Democratic votes will this thing get in the House? Don’t answer until you’ve read this. Boehner may need his caucus to carry the load yet again. One key liberal objection, as Weigel notes, is that tax hikes aren’t one of the triggers that would kick in if Congress rejects the Super Committee. The GOP simply won’t agree to that, which is why Democrats are demanding heavy Pentagon cuts as a lesser substitute.

Update: Byron York on Obama’s nuclear weapon:

As the hours to Tuesday’s deadline tick away, President Obama will have increasing leverage in his negotiations with Republicans. The president has a nuclear weapon which he has not used thus far in the crisis but will certainly use if the issue remains unresolved in the next 24 hours. That weapon is an address to the nation in which a sober-faced Obama reluctantly lays out what government spending will continue past the debt deadline and what spending will not continue. Many insiders, both Republican and Democrat, believe Obama has been badly overexposed at times in the debt battle, but that would be a speech everyone watches. The president would be the man dealing with disaster (even if it is one he helped create), while he dispatches aides and surrogates to blame it all on GOP radicalism.

True, one last eleventh-hour bid to panic the public might shake loose the last few votes they need to pass this thing. But see the previous update. I’m not so sure the GOP is his big problem this time.

Update (Tina Korbe): Fox News is now reporting that Harry Reid has signed off on the latest iteration of the debt ceiling increase agreement, pending caucus approval.

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You just are not smart enough to understand his brilliance. Just ask him. Oh, and you might be a straw man.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:03 PM

You mock what you don’t understand, sadly.

Rather than whine about me calling out your logical flaws, why don’t you try making a better, more logical argument.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:07 PM

Does that mean that the Tea Partiers we do have don’t make a difference if elected? There are some in there, so you elect some to the Senate that you take over. I don’t see a problem here.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:04 PM

They are only useful to the GOP elites at election time, to roust the base. Then, after the victory is secured, it’s the back seat for them while their pedigreed betters make all the decisions.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:08 PM

straw man.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:03 PM

You’d know.

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:08 PM

If you were in Congress right now, how many of you would vote to raise the debt ceiling $2.5 trillion today, without $2.5 trillion in real spending cuts identified now; recognizing that the debt will increase to almost $17 trillion in 16 months or less, and that the current annual interest payment is $300 billion?

What would you do today?

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 4:09 PM

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:01 PM

I ge you Rick….and I completely understand. You’ve seen our “Party Leaders” Snatch Defeat from the Jaws of Victory way too many times to feel comfortable with rocking the boat at this point.

I’m of the opposite opinion…..the “boat” is just sinking too fast.

I also know that you’re a true fiscal conservative, and aside from this one minor issue – we agree on 99% of everything else.

c’est la vie brother…..we’re both shooting for the same prize!

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:09 PM

It is incomprehensible to actually consider raising the debt ceiling an unprecedented $2.5 trillion, from the current $14.3 trillion, without massive and real spending cuts, before the nation is bankrupt.

The current interest payment is a staggering $300 billion a year; and this money has to be borrowed each month; borrowing to pay interest on the debt; and the Dems want to borrow another $2.5 trillion and cut virtually nothing. The Reps are no better, as Boehner’s bill was only going to cut, at most, $100 billion a year for 10 years.

Massive cuts need to start immediately. They need to cut at least $2.5 trillion now as a part of any deal to increase the debt ceiling by $2.5 trillion; and cut at least $1 trillion a year for the next 10 years as a part of a solution to this financial crisis before it is too late, and the nation cannot recover, and is reduced to bankruptcy.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 4:03 PM

LALALALALALALALALA I can’t hear you and your stupid facts STFU you crazy Teabagger nutwad you’re going to crash the country AAAARRRRGGGGH!!!

/southernblogger/vegasrick/jesse/kinggold

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:10 PM

Not surprised. Nerves are dead there.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:05 PM

You make me laugh. Are you the clown on a unicycle at the circus?

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:10 PM

we’re both shooting for the same prize!

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:09 PM

And at the same target! Whoops! Goal!

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:12 PM

And at the same target! Whoops! Goal!

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:12 PM

lmao!

that too!

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:03 PM

A correction is not the end of the world. I wish some of you would understand this. It will happen whether you want it to or not. Take it to the bank.

Nah, I am not losing my temper. But you can throw anyone under the bus that you want, just don’t expect to be taken seriously when you show yourself as a fair-weather friend is all I am saying.

Is there group think in Washington? Hell yes. But you think electing Tea Party members isn’t helping? I don’t agree. Sleazy implication or not, it’s the truth. No one voice speaks for any of us. Saying West is no longer one because he said something you don’t agree with is insane.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM

You make me laugh. Are you the clown on a unicycle at the circus?

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:10 PM

Are you planning on constructing an actual argument, or are you going to devolve into nonstop insults like every other establishment apologist who has attempted to debate on this topic?

Oh, never mind. Too late.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:14 PM

Does that mean that the Tea Partiers we do have don’t make a difference if elected? There are some in there, so you elect some to the Senate that you take over. I don’t see a problem here.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:04 PM

Not at all, you said you did not care what else happens other than winning the senate and the white house. I was simply saying winning those does not mean squat if you look at recent spendaholic history. The Tea Party attitude is the reason we may be saved and that means making a stand on all these bills.

bluemarlin on July 31, 2011 at 4:15 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 4:04 PM

It’s a priority to slow it down, but don’t fool yourself in thinking it will be stopped or cut. It hasn’t and it won’t.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

A correction is not the end of the world. I wish some of you would understand this. It will happen whether you want it to or not. Take it to the bank.

Nah, I am not losing my temper. But you can throw anyone under the bus that you want, just don’t expect to be taken seriously when you show yourself as a fair-weather friend is all I am saying.

Is there group think in Washington? Hell yes. But you think electing Tea Party members isn’t helping? I don’t agree. Sleazy implication or not, it’s the truth. No one voice speaks for any of us. Saying West is no longer one because he said something you don’t agree with is insane.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM

Ah yes, the typical ‘insane’ dart thrown by another establishment apologist. Well done, you’ve lost the argument.

I judge Congresscritters by their DEEDS, rather than being swayed by their fancy words.

I guess you are more swept up by the, er, fancy words.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

LALALALALALALALALA I can’t hear you and your stupid facts STFU you crazy Teabagger nutwad you’re going to crash the country AAAARRRRGGGGH!!!

/southernblogger/vegasrick/jesse/kinggold

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:10 PM

Sadly and tragically, placing preference over principle has created this calamity, and time is not our friend. $17 trillion in debt and the corresponding annual interest payment may overwhelm our nation and negate any possibility of recovering before financial and economic collapse.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

VegasRick you have proved yourself a dick.

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

It’s a priority to slow it down, but don’t fool yourself in thinking it will be stopped or cut. It hasn’t and it won’t.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

A slow death is still death.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

It hasn’t and it won’t.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

Yes sir as long as we people like you that is for sure. Running for Congress?

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

VegasRick you have proved yourself a dick.

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

Coming from you that means so much to me. Not.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

You make me laugh. Are you the clown on a unicycle at the circus?

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:10 PM

Are you planning on constructing an actual argument, or are you going to devolve into nonstop insults like every other establishment apologist who has attempted to debate on this topic?

Oh, never mind. Too late.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:14 PM

As entertaining as this will undoubtedly turn out to be…..aside from this issue….there is very little difference in your repctive world-views from what I’ve read over the last few months.

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

ossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:08 PM

So if you think nothing will change no matter who get elected. What is your plan?

bluemarlin on July 31, 2011 at 4:15 PM

If we never got a Tea Party person in there, you can still put pressure on those there now. Much easier if you have a full hand.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:19 PM

Coming from you that means so much to me. Not.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

Really? You responded.Funny.

Sheesh you and Soblogger are as pathetic as they get.

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:19 PM

A slow death is still death.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

Given the dire circumstances we should be willing to take the pain now, rather than assume the risk of total collapse later. It seems that most in Congress are willing to take the risk.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 4:20 PM

They can trot him out for another speechifying session. NOBODY is listening to this clown anymore.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Mini-revolt on the deal. Rs say too much defense cuts, Ds in House don’t want to cut non Defense spending or entitlements without raising taxes.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM

Much easier.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:19 PM

Oh you are one of those. You are one of the reasons were are where we are.

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM

So if you think nothing will change no matter who get elected. What is your plan?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:19 PM

Hold EVERY Congresscritter responsible for HIS OR HER OWN ACTIONS, not their fancy words.

If they Eff up, fire them.

Don’t give in to the Democrats.

Learn from Andrew Jackson’s example.

Find a way to deal with the media.

Keep electing Tea Partiers, and stop bashing them for being concerned about the country.

Stop believing everything Obama/the media/the Dems tell you. The world might or might not suffer if we cut spending, but it will MOST CERTAINLY END if we keep going in our current direction.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM

As entertaining as this will undoubtedly turn out to be…..aside from this issue….there is very little difference in your repctive world-views from what I’ve read over the last few months.

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

I have tried to explain that to this guy today as well as before but won’t take yes for an answer. And then some guy calls me a dick, oh well. I still have 9 twinkies to eat.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:22 PM

Given the dire circumstances we should be willing to take the pain now, rather than assume the risk of total collapse later. It seems that most in Congress are willing to take the risk.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Only because that risk coincides with their reelection chances, at least in their minds.

Thus the selfish Congressman is our problem.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:23 PM

I have tried to explain that to this guy today as well as before but won’t take yes for an answer. And then some guy calls me a dick, oh well. I still have 9 twinkies to eat.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:22 PM

LOL thanks for acknowledging that you read my example and couldn’t refudiate it.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:23 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

Do I think it’s insane to throw people under the bus because they say something you don’t agree with? Sure. Who wouldn’t?

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

No, as long as you have a government that takes money you won’t. What utopia are you wishing for?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:24 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:01 PM

Which political philosophy was the cause of the Republicans doing so well in the 11/2/10 election? Moderation or Conservatism?

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:03 PM

I’m curious, Jesse. What’s your answer?

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:24 PM

As entertaining as this will undoubtedly turn out to be…..aside from this issue….there is very little difference in your repctive world-views from what I’ve read over the last few months.

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

The only difference between us is that at crunch time he goes wobbly, and I don’t.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:24 PM

Do I think it’s insane to throw people under the bus because they say something you don’t agree with? Sure. Who wouldn’t?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:24 PM

Again with the straw man. I guess you don’t want to have a rational conversation.

Buh-bye, waste.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM

No, as long as you have a government that takes money you won’t. What utopia are you wishing for?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:24 PM

I’ll settle for getting back to prosperity. Our current government has grown to the point where it chokes off our breath.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:26 PM

LOL thanks for acknowledging that you read my example and couldn’t refudiate it.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:23 PM

Man, you must have been a real PITA to go to school with. You’re never wrong!

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:27 PM

They can trot him out for another speechifying session. NOBODY is listening to this clown anymore.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 4:20 PM

All 3 of his latest pressers haven’t stopped his slide…..what’s he going to say different this time?

Everyone commenting here could give his speech right now…

Republicans – Evil, want to kill Gramma, no SS checks, programs cut, don’t want to “compromise”, his vapor-bill is “a balanced-approach”…Dem’s are wonderful and good and don’t want sick or old people to die because of Repugbs.

Did I miss anything?

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:28 PM

Did I miss anything?

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:28 PM

Greedy corporate jet owners. Can’t forget them.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:30 PM

Man, you must have been a real PITA to go to school with. You’re never wrong!

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:27 PM

I’m wrong occasionally, but only when arguing with my wife.

I’m never wrong when arguing about principles. But then again, that’s because of the nature of principles.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:30 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM

I don’t see anything you said there that I disagree with. But patience is all that is asked for. You do get to fire those you don’t like, it’s what elections are for so use them. But firing on your own during a crucial time is not the best strategy. It’s a two way street. Give and take.

CW on July 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM

I am one what? Who is this imaginary “we” you keep referring too? If I had my way you wouldn’t have the problem you do now because the Fed wouldn’t be taking in more then it is spending. So who am I again?

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

As entertaining as this will undoubtedly turn out to be…..aside from this issue….there is very little difference in your repctive world-views from what I’ve read over the last few months.

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:18 PM

Your attempts to barter peace between the angry white men don’t seem to be going anywhere… the flame war continues.

bayam on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

Greedy corporate jet owners. Can’t forget them.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:30 PM

Dammit…I knew there was something else….greedy corporate Jet Owners and the Greedy Rich.

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

Your attempts to barter peace between the angry white men don’t seem to be going anywhere… the flame war continues.

bayam on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

I did say it would be entertaining!

They’re both great posters (and about a sliver apart politically)

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:33 PM

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:24 PM

Oh sorry KingJester, I didn’t see you ask me a question.

As far as I can see it was Conservatism. But now I am here those same people are not Conservative because they are not “conservative enough” whatever that is.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM

Suit yourself bro. No skin off of my ass.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:34 PM

Dammit…I knew there was something else….greedy corporate Jet Owners and the Greedy Rich.

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

Evil doctors, remember that one? “Cutting off peoples feet, just for the money!”
*Classic.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:35 PM

Debt deal about done, Asian markets about to open. Coincidence? You decide.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 4:36 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM

No it is a priority reduce the size of government so it can live within its’ means. You know, like most of the rest of us do.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 4:36 PM

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:35 PM

Friggin’ forgot all about the foot snatching doctors!! (left way too many brain-cells back in the ’70′s)

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:37 PM

I don’t see anything you said there that I disagree with. But patience is all that is asked for. You do get to fire those you don’t like, it’s what elections are for so use them. But firing on your own during a crucial time is not the best strategy. It’s a two way street. Give and take.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

And what happens when we have all three branches, but a crisis appears and our leaders tell us to wait again? To deny that probability is to be exceedingly naive. WHEN is the time to take a stand? The evil forces will ALWAYS create a crisis and tell us to eat our peas when they need to protect government.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:38 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 4:36 PM

Again I never said it wasn’t a priority. I said if you think any bill that comes up, no matter how much you like it, will do any real cutting of the overall debt will never happen.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM

Your attempts to barter peace between the angry white men don’t seem to be going anywhere… the flame war continues.

bayam on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

How do you know I’m white, racist?

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:34 PM

Okay. Then why was the Tea Party (Conservatives) good enough to lead the charge for responsible government and the victory on 11/2/10, but they are an obstacle now?

Does that standing for something thingy get in the way or what?/

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM

Again I never said it wasn’t a priority. I said if you think any bill that comes up, no matter how much you like it, will do any real cutting of the overall debt will never happen.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM

So your conclusion is that we should never attempt it, and we should just STFU and keep electing the GOP no matter how feckless they are?

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:41 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:38 PM

Is it not easier to force the GOP to take more drastic stands when you are the reason they have all branches of government then it would be to just have a House? I think it is and that is the prize. But you lambaste them now, when you are so close to getting rid of Obama and taking the Senate is not good.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:42 PM

Friggin’ forgot all about the foot snatching doctors!! (left way too many brain-cells back in the ’70′s)

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:37 PM

I gotta go now bro. Taking my sun burned, twinkie eatin’ big fat a$$ to the gym so I can workout for 72 straight hours and get myself in shape – pronto! Oh. And you are still wrong fossten.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:42 PM

Susan Collins now on Fox…I just cut the sound off.

d1carter on July 31, 2011 at 4:07 PM

Baby-talk from adults is so grating.

slickwillie2001 on July 31, 2011 at 4:43 PM

Is it not easier to force the GOP to take more drastic stands when you are the reason they have all branches of government then it would be to just have a House? I think it is and that is the prize. But you lambaste them now, when you are so close to getting rid of Obama and taking the Senate is not good.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:42 PM

You mean like the GOP didn’t from 1994-2006?

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:44 PM

I gotta go now bro. Taking my sun burned, twinkie eatin’ big fat a$$ to the gym so I can workout for 72 straight hours and get myself in shape – pronto! Oh. And you are still wrong fossten.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:42 PM

Proof by assertion. Bye!

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM

Your attempts to barter peace between the angry white men don’t seem to be going anywhere… the flame war continues.

bayam on July 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM

How do you know I’m white, racist?

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM

Ya lob in a slow pitch…..

(wondered which of ya would catch that)

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM

I gotta go now bro. Taking my sun burned, twinkie eatin’ big fat a$$ to the gym so I can workout for 72 straight hours and get myself in shape – pronto! Oh. And you are still wrong fossten.

VegasRick on July 31, 2011 at 4:42 PM
Proof by assertion. Bye!

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM

LMAO!!

C’mon you two…..make nice!….fos….rick…..group hug!

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:46 PM

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM

I don’t think the Tea Party is an obstacle. I think some of the voices (not the movement as a whole) is too impatient when things don’t look like they are changing fast enough. let the work be done and wait. We all still have power to change the makeup of the Government.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:41 PM

No no, you can attempt it. Just don’t be surprised when the size of the debt (no matter what you try to do) doesn’t move an inch. A correction will fix this either way so have no worries.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:47 PM

LMAO!!

C’mon you two…..make nice!….fos….rick…..group hug!

Tim_CA on July 31, 2011 at 4:46 PM

LOL it’s easy to be gracious when you win by a big margin…so I’ll be gracious.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:48 PM

No no, you can attempt it. Just don’t be surprised when the size of the debt (no matter what you try to do) doesn’t move an inch. A correction will fix this either way so have no worries.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:47 PM

Fine, then don’t tell me to STFU when I criticize a sitting Congressman for a) voting for a crap sandwich AND b) calling me names in the process.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:48 PM

I don’t think the Tea Party is an obstacle. I think some of the voices (not the movement as a whole) is too impatient when things don’t look like they are changing fast enough. let the work be done and wait. We all still have power to change the makeup of the Government.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:47 PM

“Not fast enough?”

They aren’t changing AT ALL!

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:49 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:44 PM

You got a balanced budget out of Clinton in 1994 because of an all RINO (as you would put it) Congress and most of the Senate. See? Elections matter.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:50 PM

You got a balanced budget out of Clinton in 1994 because of an all RINO (as you would put it) Congress and most of the Senate. See? Elections matter.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:50 PM

Uh, no. That Congress folded in 1995 during the ‘government shutdown’ and couldn’t hold its ground.

Cause?

Fear of the media.

Same cause as this one, including Allen West’s capitulation.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:52 PM

If we never got a Tea Party person in there, you can still put pressure on those there now. Much easier if you have a full hand.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:19 PM

I am not arguing against Tea Party people at all, I am one myself. You take the stance that we have to accept the way it is right now and I say no we do not. Winning the house, senate and WH with the regular old politicians will do us no good. You keep saying a correction will come no matter what. I say the correction has started with the Tea Party attitude and you have yet to acknowledge or recognize that trend as you will just take what they give you now and be happy. You say, we cannot fix or stop spending, I say we can.

bluemarlin on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:48 PM

I think there is a time and place for that. This isn’t the time to demoralize and fracture the base when we are so close.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:49 PM

That could be debated. But I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

That makes zero sense, just because none of these farces address it doesn’t mean it isn’t a priority. It’s job One. Thanks to Ford (I think).

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

I think there is a time and place for that. This isn’t the time to demoralize and fracture the base when we are so close.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

You just don’t get it. The GOP leadership is the cause for the base to be fractured. They are selling us out. And please knock of the ‘Shut up’ talk, it’s getting tiresome.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:56 PM

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:50 PM

I don’t want another of those on paper balanced budgets, I want a real one. That will necessitate a much smaller D.C. with a lot less power brokers.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 4:56 PM

Elections matter.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:50 PM

Yes, they do. Since 2006, the Debt Ceiling has basically doubled.

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:57 PM

I think there is a time and place for that. This isn’t the time to demoralize and fracture the base when we are so close.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

See here it is again, who do you consider the base? I would say the rank and file leadership are the ones demoralizing the base!)

bluemarlin on July 31, 2011 at 4:57 PM

I think there is a time and place for that. This isn’t the time to demoralize and fracture the base when we are so close.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

“Shut up,” he explained.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:59 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:52 PM

It folded. But you still got a balanced budget which is what we wanted. The Media is going to do what they do regardless.

bluemarlin on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

I don’t think I was clear. I meant only an economic correction that will clear the debt. In that yes, you have to accept that we will continue to have a large debt until that correction occurs. The political shift before that could be anything. I didn’t say we can’t stop spending or fix it. I said it won’t decrease the debt. I am fine with this bill as much as I would be fine with a pure Tea Party bill of slash and burn. In the end, it won’t make a debt without a real correction.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:59 PM

Obama has actually already started his nuclear option. How would you love to work for this azz?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/07/sick-obama-has-top-general-tell-troops-in-afghanistan-they-may-not-get-paid/

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:02 PM

It folded. But you still got a balanced budget which is what we wanted. The Media is going to do what they do regardless.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:59 PM

Clinton’s deficit when he left office was $1 trillion.

So, no.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:02 PM

I don’t think I was clear. I meant only an economic correction that will clear the debt. In that yes, you have to accept that we will continue to have a large debt until that correction occurs. The political shift before that could be anything. I didn’t say we can’t stop spending or fix it. I said it won’t decrease the debt. I am fine with this bill as much as I would be fine with a pure Tea Party bill of slash and burn. In the end, it won’t make a debt without a real correction.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 4:59 PM

What is this ‘correction’ you speak of? You mean like bankruptcy? Because we’re following the footsteps of Argentina, to the letter.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:03 PM

My problem with this plan now is that Obama can now sidestep it and pass the biggest tax increase in history by allowing the Bush era tax cuts to elapse.

William Amos on July 31, 2011 at 3:30 PM

If Obama wants to run for reelection on a platform of raising taxes, then that is a fight any GOP candidate should be happy to take on.

JohnGalt23 on July 31, 2011 at 5:04 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM

I don’t know why you keep thinking I am saying it’s not a priority since I have made it clear that is not what I am saying.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 4:56 PM

I haven’t told you to shut up yet, but if you want me too, I will.

bluemarlin on July 31, 2011 at 4:57 PM

I think the American people is the base. But the GOP as a whole if we are talking party. I don’t do this game of “RINO” vs. “True Conservative”.

kingsjester on July 31, 2011 at 4:57 PM

Yes it has, and it will continue too. The debt will also get bigger until the correction occurs.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:06 PM

If Obama wants to run for reelection on a platform of raising taxes, then that is a fight any GOP candidate should be happy to take on.

JohnGalt23 on July 31, 2011 at 5:04 PM

The media will happily and dutifully spin it for him so that it’s ‘revenue balance by not allowing the millionaires and billionaires to continue raping the poor defenseless American working stiffs.’

In other words, it won’t actually be on his ‘platform.’

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:08 PM

I haven’t told you to shut up yet, but if you want me too, I will.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:06 PM

Yes you have, more than once.

Your entire argument is ‘shut up.’

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:08 PM

There was apparently a protestor in the Capitol today that had a sign that said, “I See Debt People” Ha.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 5:09 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:02 PM

I didn’t say the balanced budget worked. I said we got what we asked for. Kind of like now, every who thinks this bill ( or any other) will actually change something.

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:03 PM

Not bankruptcy really. But I do believe we are very close to handling all that we can as a country with debt. There will be some sort of collapse though. How big I am not sure. I know it will hurt. I also know it will cause the government to truly take cutting the budget and taxes seriously.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:11 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:08 PM

No my entire argument is “patience” if that means shut up to you, well, I can’t help that.

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:12 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:02 PM
That is gonna cost him. BTW I say a clip of Lindsey Graham on this and he was really good. Stephanopoulus was stunned that conservatives and Graham might not go along with the deal today.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 5:12 PM

At a time when China is continuing to invest in its military capacity, currently developing aircraft carriers, and a missile system to defeat US Navy Carrier Battle Groups in the Pacific, it is hard to understand why Reps would allow an automatic trigger to cut defense.

Yes, the Pentagon has supported closing unnecessary military bases; and we should locate and cut any waste; but we cannot afford to create a hollow force. Our military deserves the best equipment we can provide; as the US military must remain the preeminent military force in the world to protect our liberty.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 5:13 PM

Reid has signed off on the deal.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 5:14 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:02 PM
That is gonna cost him. BTW I say a clip of Lindsey Graham on this and he was really good. Stephanopoulus was stunned that conservatives and Graham might not go along with the deal today.

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 5:12 PM

Hopefully, Graham and other Reps have found some backbone to preserve our nation from financial disaster – at all costs.

SheetAnchor on July 31, 2011 at 5:15 PM

fossten on July 31, 2011 at 5:08 PM

I’m linking in case he doesn’t understand the reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:17 PM

txmomof6 on July 31, 2011 at 5:12 PM

Lindsay Graham drives me crazy, on any day I could kiss him or slap him. In the end I don’t trust him.

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:20 PM

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:17 PM

Nah, I understand the reference. It’s just not what I am saying. But eh…

Jesse on July 31, 2011 at 5:21 PM

“… The agreement looks like this: if the super-committee tasked with entitlement and tax reform fails to come up with $1.5 trillion in deficit reduction that passes Congress, the “neutron bomb” goes off, — as one Democrat put it — spending cuts that will hit the Pentagon budget most deeply, as well as Medicare providers (not beneficiaries) and other programs.”

So they delay some more… so defense gets gutted as do Medicare providers? So the military gets screwed (as usual), & they’ll stiff hospitals & doctors???

Of course, they would never consider gutting Obamacare… now would they???

More physicians will retire.
Less will pursue a career in medicine. Why incur all of that debt… Just so some a-hole can say that medicine here is worse than most countries and, by the way, MDs should work for free? They could go to Mexico & Cuba for their health care.

More of the remaining doctors will start asking for cash up front prior to the physician visit & dump the insurance haggling back onto the patients… Tough crap.

Perhaps all of the ideologue MDs out there who lobbied for Obamacare should know that perhaps no more “doctor fixes” are on their way… good. These same MDs should’ve forced to see a majority of Obamacare patients & foot the loss themselves…

Everyone else… Get used to paying with cash & having longer waits.

Danny on July 31, 2011 at 5:25 PM

The president has a nuclear weapon which he has not used thus far in the crisis but will certainly use if the issue remains unresolved in the next 24 hours. That weapon is an address to the nation in which a sober-faced Obama reluctantly lays out what government spending will continue past the debt deadline and what spending will not continue.

That is his nuclear option?

It sure sounds like his Wile E. Coyote option to me.

And I would love to hear just what it is he will cut back on… yes indeedy! Will he shaft granny to keep the EPA open? Ooooooo…. nuclear option, baby!

‘Yes, I will have to lay off the Dept. of Education, much beloved by… stop that laughing!!!’

ajacksonian on July 31, 2011 at 5:26 PM

Deal is done, Barry, Harry, and Ghrammy. Everyone will jump on that boat.

Limerick on July 31, 2011 at 5:27 PM

Congratulations on driving the Nation bonkers for a month and coming up with a zero-sum game. You just handed a hard core Marxist another trillion dollars.

Idjits.

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM

But but we’re looking at the long game……..

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:34 PM

Oh goooooooddddddyyyyyyyy! Now the worthless POS can have a GREAT time at his bday bash! Life is good, no?/

sicoit on July 31, 2011 at 5:34 PM

That weapon is an address to the nation

Oh good Lord, another one?

vcferlita on July 31, 2011 at 5:34 PM

But but we’re looking at the long game……..

Cindy Munford on July 31, 2011 at 5:34 PM

Heh. The score (seems to me) is zero. Just hand the Marxist another Trillion, allow a downgrade and let him go to his birfday party-n-fund-raising bashapalooza. Let’s just hope that he continues to crater in the polls.

Ugh!

Key West Reader on July 31, 2011 at 5:39 PM

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