Video: Police officer threatens concealed-carry driver with execution, beating; Update: Officer relieved of duty, under investigation

posted at 10:05 am on July 21, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

Ohio’s concealed-carry law requires anyone stopped by police to immediately notify the officer if they are armed.  Failure to do so is a first-class misdemeanor that can result in a six-month jail term and a thousand-dollar fine, as well as losing the license to carry.  It’s usually not considered a death penalty offense, unless one gets pulled over in Beachwood Canton, Ohio, in a case highlighted today by Ohioans for Concealed Carry:

William pulled his car to the side of the road to let out two passengers, but only the female occupant managed to exit before the police pulled up and began screaming at all three parties. “Stay in that car, I’m not going to mess around,” screamed one of the officers at the two people attempting to exit the vehicle. The driver and concealed handgun licensee, William, remained seated in his vehicle when an officer entered the rear of the vehicle.

William stated, “I have a concealed carry, and…” when he was abruptly told to shut up. Dash camera video footage shows the driver turning his head, and his voice can be heard, but the words are inaudible. A few minutes passed while the officer continued to berate the two passengers. He proceeded to the driver’s side and tries to open the door but is delayed by a seat belt. William states “I have a conceal…” and the officer demands that he better tell the truth or else! This interruption causes William to “tell the truth” and his attempt to notify is interrupted. William exited the vehicle with his driver’s license in the same hand as his concealed handgun license. He held it up for the officer to see, and the officer said, “Why are you having that?” This gave William the opportunity to say, “I have a CCW, and…” The officer then said, “Do you have a gun?” William answered yes, causing the officer to grab it from William’s waist.

At this point, William was handcuffed and put into the police cruiser. The officer then started to berate William, stating: “I should blast you in the mouth right now … I’m close to caving in your head.” and “you’re just a stupid human being!”

The officer continued to berate the driver after arresting him and locking him in the back seat, offering such bon mots as “people like you don’t deserve to @#$%#$ move throughout public. Period!” Just after the discovery of the licensed firearm (and caught on tape), the same officer threatened to “put lumps” on a woman who had been outside of the car if he saw her in the area again. This seems to be an officer intent on delivering street justice more than law enforcement, and one with an anger management problem.

To be fair, even the concealed-carry community in Ohio acknowledges that they have a problem getting licensees to properly inform police during stops. Four years ago, Chad Baus wrote about the issue for the Buckeye Firearms Association, having heard about it from multiple law-enforcement sources. In Minnesota, it’s more of a practice than a requirement (there is no explicit legal language on the subject), but it’s a damned good idea. This past winter I was in a car accident outside of my house, and I made sure that the officer knew immediately of my status. He checked my license but otherwise treated it as no big deal — as it was in this instance. However, police officers are understandably sensitive about being aware of all firearms present at traffic stops, for very good reasons, most of which have to do with gravemarkers of their fellow officers who ended up getting surprised by them.  It’s not for nothing that Ohio included that requirement.

In this case, though, a fair viewing of the videotape shows that the driver did attempt to notify the officers on more than one occasion before stepping out of the car, and tried to do so when the officer approached his window several minutes into the stop.  He may not have done it very well, but it certainly doesn’t appear that the driver intended to keep the information from the police.  The officer told him repeatedly to keep his mouth shut while they checked out the other two people involved in the stop.  Threatening death and/or a beating to a man who tried repeatedly and finally succeeded in fulfilling his legal obligation to inform them is irrational and should be illegal.  The driver faces failure-to-inform charges, for which OhioCCW is raising funds, but the court and the city should be taking a look into the actions of this officer during the entire stop.

Addendum: My late friend Joel Rosenberg literally wrote the book on carry licensing in Minnesota, The Carry Book: Minnesota Edition.  Unfortunately Joel passed away before he could complete an edition that looked at the issue nationally, but even if you’re not in Minnesota, there is a ton of good advice for those who want to pursue carry licenses and handle firearms.  My particular favorite chapter of the book is titled, “Cowardice 201: A PhD Seminar in Advanced Staying Out of Trouble,” in which Joel reveals that the true secret of karate is to run faster than everyone else.  Self-defense starts with keeping out of situations where you will likely find yourself threatened.  Joel’s book is a sobering read, literally and figuratively.

Update: The website said Beachwood, but the videotape does say Canton.  Perhaps the driver was from Beachwood.  I’ve corrected the first paragraph to match the video.

Update II: The Canton Police Department has posted a statement today to its Facebook page:

I want to assure our citizens that the behavior, as demonstrated in this video, is wholly unacceptable and in complete contradiction to the professional standards we demand of our officers. As such, appropriate steps were placed in motion as dictated by our standards, policies and contractual obligations. Those steps included: The officer immediately being relieved of all duty. The incident has been referred to the Internal Affairs Bureau for what will be a complete and thorough investigation. As bad as the video indicates our officer’s actions were, there is a due process procedure to follow. That process is designed in the best interest of both our employees and the citizens at large. That process will be followed in this case as in all others. Anyone shown to be in violation of our rules and regulations will be help appropriately responsible as dictated by all the facts. ~Chief Dean McKimm

One e-mailer called the Canton PD and spoke to a lieutenant, whom the e-mailer described as “embarrassed” by the story and “truly remorseful.”  Some of the CPD’s commenters on the Facebook page object to the officer being essentially suspended with pay, but police get due process as well, and the union agreement with the city almost certainly has language governing that process.  It’s good to see that the Canton PD is taking this seriously.  Now, will the city drop the charges against the driver and restore his license status?

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That was my sense from watching his body language that “O1″ knew he made initial mistakes that kept compounding to the point that as soon as he left the left rear of the car to harass the two pax, both he and his partner could have been killed.

That tells me the entire stop was poorly done. If the officer didn’t know who was in the car and whether or not they were a threat, he should never have made the stop with just two officers but should have called for backup and waited until it arrived — especially if they had to crawl inside the stopped vehicle. The officers had no control over the situation from the moment they got out of their car, they knew it, and tried to compensate by being belligerent. Very unprofessional and dangerous.

Socratease on July 21, 2011 at 12:52 PM

These cops epitomize what is wrong with law enforcement. They are supposed to protect and serve, not to intimidate and abuse.
It’s just too common for their power over the rest of us to corrupt them and this is the result.
I’m sure this isn’t an isolated incident, just the first that they were caught in. Fire them, no pension, no benefits, make an example out of them.

smfic on July 21, 2011 at 12:52 PM

So why exactly was the cop so angry? This whole thing sounds like a one sided attempt to make cops look bad. I’m guessing the car was speeding away from an armed robbery and someone is trying to make it into an outrageous civil rights violation.

pedestrian on July 21, 2011 at 12:29 PM

Watch the video then ask yourself if you want Officer Roid serving and protecting you. The officer actually used the words “execute you” if he had a do-over.

AH_C on July 21, 2011 at 12:52 PM

I do feel for cops, and can understand the on the edge feeling….but as was said. There is a level of professionalism expected, and this man obviously has a hard time with that. He needs to seek help for it.

capejasmine on July 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM

No. There is no reason to feel for cops. Police departments are wholly responsible for creating this climate where normal, law abiding (well, I try, but there are so many), gun-owning citizens like myself simply do not trust them.

Soon, the police will realize that their existence is based solely, and I mean totally solely on the cooperation, consent and funding of the people. Of course, it may be too late, then.

It doesn’t have to be this way. If police stop militarizing and cracking own SWAT style on pot smokers and debtors, and showed respect to every person, then people might start to trust them. It will take awhile though, because it always takes more time to rebuild trust.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 12:55 PM

That tells me the entire stop was poorly done.

Socratease on July 21, 2011 at 12:52 PM

Exactly. Why search the vehicle with someone still sitting in the front seat? Shouldn’t the first thing you do here is make sure the scene is secure by asking the driver at least one question before jumping in the backseat?

Abby Adams on July 21, 2011 at 12:55 PM

I sense the number of CCW permits is going to necessarily skyrocket.

ted c on July 21, 2011 at 12:52 PM

Nah. What’s the point of the permit if you get threatened with death and arrested and charged even though you had a permit?

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 12:57 PM

Isn’t the first thing an officer does when stopping or pulling up to a suspicious car ask for license and registration?

Seems to me these officers have had poor training or become a little to power-hungry over “stupid” people. He pretty much admits they could tamper the scene to set the guy up. That’s not professional, that’s murder.

amazingmets on July 21, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Unionized cop.

Labamigo on July 21, 2011 at 10:57 AM

WTH does that have to do with anything? Mouth off to a police officer or not move fast enough back before there even were unions, you’d end up with a billy club upside your head.

when he removed the gun, the trio of cops shot him down.

a capella on July 21, 2011 at 11:02 AM

This is why I’m dragging my feet getting a CWL. Not only is there the rigmarole of getting one, but then you have to face BS like this.

The movement towards paramilitarism hasn’t helped.

a capella on July 21, 2011 at 10:37 AM

They aren’t exactly like the guys on Adam-12 anymore, are they? But these days we have the War on Drugs, the War on Terror, the War on Prostitution, the War on Drunk Driving, the War on Illegal Immigration…

From what I’ve seen, for many cops the First, Second and Fourth Amendments do not exist. And to insure their meaning you better have a lawyer on speed dial and be willing to fight City Hall…and that will take years and a lot of money. But even if you win, they’ll protect their own as much as possible and keep doing the same stuff.

Dr. ZhivBlago on July 21, 2011 at 1:01 PM

The officers had no control over the situation from the moment they got out of their car, they knew it, and tried to compensate by being belligerent. Very unprofessional and dangerous.

Socratease on July 21, 2011 at 12:52 PM

I think that’s exactly what it boils down to. Perhaps, as some have suggested, with some roid rage thrown into the mix.

Gang-of-One on July 21, 2011 at 1:01 PM

“Anyone shown to be in violation of our rules and regulations will be help appropriately responsible as dictated by all the facts. ~Chief Dean McKimm”

How does one “help appropriately responsible”…?

Seven Percent Solution on July 21, 2011 at 1:02 PM

Videos banned from police actions in 5….4….3…..

PappyD61 on July 21, 2011 at 1:03 PM

Both of these officers FAILED to follow procedure. The DRIVER of the car should have been dealt with FIRST. If they had followed procedure the driver would have been able to tell him he had a carry permit. Also procedurely officers DO NOT search a car until every passenger is OUTSIDE the car.
The comments, threats and filthy mouth of this officer should earn him a one way ticket out of law enforcement. I’m sure this isn’t the first time he’s been unable to control himself.

IlonaE on July 21, 2011 at 1:04 PM

What’s the point of the permit if you get threatened with death and arrested and charged even though you had a permit?

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 12:57 PM

Oh, I dunno. Maybe because it’s the right thing to do? I always grew up believing that law abiding citizens don’t have to fear the cops. Now that I’m a little older, I’ve subtly shifted my opinion to “law abiding citizens shouldn’t have to fear the cops.”

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM

Soon, the police will realize that their existence is based solely, and I mean totally solely on the cooperation, consent and funding of the people. Of course, it may be too late, then.

It doesn’t have to be this way. If police stop militarizing and cracking own SWAT style on pot smokers and debtors, and showed respect to every person, then people might start to trust them. It will take awhile though, because it always takes more time to rebuild trust.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 12:55 PM

If incidences like this become the new normal public cooperation will go by the wayside, and so will their funding.

Enough bullying like this and the public’s trust of the police will disappear making their job many times harder.

Colbyjack on July 21, 2011 at 1:06 PM

I may have missed this:

Video: Canton officer under investigation after concealed carry arrest
CANTON – Canton police are investigating an officer for his conduct during a traffic stop in June involving a concealed carry permit holder.

Ohioans For Concealed Carry posted video of the incident online Wednesday.

“I think it’s important for citizens to understand that the behavior demonstrated on the video is wholly unacceptable, and it violates many of our rules, our regulations and standards we demand of our officers,” Chief Dean McKimm said Thursday.

The officer on the video, Daniel Harless, was placed on administrative leave in June and has been on sick leave since Monday, McKimm said.

Tomblvd on July 21, 2011 at 12:48 PM

Tomblvd, from your link:

Bill Adams, president of the Canton Police Patrolmen’s Association, has watched the video.

Adams said that officers deal with emotional and dangerous situations on the job. But when officers respond to calls involving guns “it’s an emotional situation. I’m not condoning … anything that might have happened in the video.”

“Obviously we have a lot of hard-working police officers on this department who do a lot of good work,” he said. “Obviously, whatever transpired on that video is an isolated incident. It happened, and it’s being handled properly right now, and the chief is doing what he feels is necessary.”

Police officers, who have been with the department for several years, also are making the transition to the concealed weapon law, Adams said.

When Adams was first with the department 19 years ago, “you came across somebody with a gun, it was 99 percent of the people were bad guys (who) should not have been carrying guns.

Heck, 19 years ago, people still had gun racks in their pickup window with guns mounted down South, i.e. TX.

I recall in mid-80s, a buddy and I getting pulled over riding tandem on a dirtbike while carrying a 22 rifle. The cop’s only concern was the bike not having tags on city streets.

“Umm, we’re just college boys riding some side streets to get out to the woods where we could go plinking with the gun and ride some trails?”

Cop told us to get a tag or next time, we’d get a ticket for operating unregistered vehicle on streets, and let us continue our way back to campus, a mile away. Next day, got a tag for like 5 bucks, IIRC.

AH_C on July 21, 2011 at 1:08 PM

What’s the point of the permit if you get threatened with death and arrested and charged even though you had a permit?

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 12:57 PM

Use your rights, or lose your rights.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:08 PM

Oh, I dunno. Maybe because it’s the right thing to do? I always grew up believing that law abiding citizens don’t have to fear the cops. Now that I’m a little older, I’ve subtly shifted my opinion to “law abiding citizens shouldn’t have to fear the cops.”

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM

Interesting. So, because it’s a law, you think it’s the “right thing to do?”

You know, not so long ago there were no laws restricting gun ownership and carry. You could order high-powered rifles through the mail, and kids had shotguns and rifles in their trucks on school property.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 1:10 PM

Enough bullying like this and the public’s trust of the police will disappear making their job many times harder.

Colbyjack on July 21, 2011 at 1:06 PM

Life was never like “Dragnet,” no matter how much we wanted to believe every cop was like Joe Friday.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:10 PM

Absolutely.

However……………….
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc85/Mamba1-0/45acp.jpg

Solaratov on July 21, 2011 at 12:35 PM

Heh. Yep. I’m familiar with the mechanism. Colt Series 80 and Kimber ProCarry 4″ barrel. Haven’t yet figured out how to keep the Kimber from imprinting.

a capella on July 21, 2011 at 1:10 PM

TSA will want this jackass as a training officer.

pat on July 21, 2011 at 1:11 PM

“Umm, we’re just college boys riding some side streets to get out to the woods where we could go plinking with the gun and ride some trails?”

Cop told us to get a tag or next time, we’d get a ticket for operating unregistered vehicle on streets, and let us continue our way back to campus, a mile away. Next day, got a tag for like 5 bucks, IIRC.

AH_C on July 21, 2011 at 1:08 PM

Exactly.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM

Use your rights, or lose your rights.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:08 PM

Now that you got rid of that pig Doyle.

Lanceman on July 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM

However……………….
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc85/Mamba1-0/45acp.jpg

Solaratov on July 21, 2011 at 12:35 PM

Nice. I own an SA.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 1:13 PM

I wonder if HotAir’s badge bunnies, holster sniffers and assorted boyz in blue that post here will have the chutzpah to try and defend this behavior.

Garbagemen have a more dangerous jobs that cops have. I’m not convinced that society could last longer without cops (or at least how a large number of cops act) than without someone taking out the garbage.

I will say, however, that while he has some jerks working for him, my local chief of police treats me with respect, more so than other city officials.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 1:13 PM

Interesting. So, because it’s a law, you think it’s the “right thing to do?”

You know, not so long ago there were no laws restricting gun ownership and carry. You could order high-powered rifles through the mail, and kids had shotguns and rifles in their trucks on school property.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 1:10 PM

That didn’t come out right, Galt. I don’t think that gun ownership is necessarily a moral imperative, as there are practical reasons for some people not to own guns. But if gun owners refuse to register for concealed carry because they are fearful of bad cops, then the entire second amendment gets ceded away to fear. That kind of cowardice is something I’m not comfortable associating with the American ideal.

I am supremely confident that whatever they charged that driver with, they will drop all charges. He didn’t break the law. I am not so confident that anything will happen to the belligerent snob in blue, but it’s a goddam shame that I or anyone else would have to alter our behavior because of a cadre of bad cops. I wholly reject that premise.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:14 PM

Now that you got rid of that pig Doyle.

Lanceman on July 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM

We were already using ‘em. He said wear it on your hip. We did so. Now look: concealed carry has been passed. Try another bluff, libs.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:17 PM

From The Canton Polie Facebook Page….

Mission Statement:

The mission of the Canton Police Department is to protect the lives and properties of the citizens of Canton, enforce all city, state, and federal laws, prevent crime, and educate the public.

We, the men and women of the Canton Police Department, shall perform these duties with honesty and fairness through strong leadership and continuous training. We will strive to serve as role models for the community, applying professional standards and commitment to integrity, sensitivity and compassion to those we serve.

Epic Fail

Tim_CA on July 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM

We were already using ‘em. He said wear it on your hip. We did so.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:17 PM

You could DO that and the cops wouldn’t get all bent out of shape? Old ladies and young stupid girls wouldn’t get the vapors?
Can’t do that here. Must be concealed from ordinary sight of the citizenry.

Lanceman on July 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM

Police are underpaid and face the dregs of society every day.

Ummm, have you seen how much police officers and sheriff’s deputies in California make? Police are about the worst abusers when it comes to tax feeding rent seeking government leech parasites. They routine scam disability pensions, while their existing pension structures are bankrupting many towns and counties.

As for facing the dregs of society every day, to begin with, plenty of people doing business in urban areas have to deal with a criminal element so police are not special. Also, most cops don’t spend all their time or even a large fraction of their time dealing with heinous criminals. Much of their time is taken up by revenue generation in the form of traffic tickets and other citations. Where I live, they can’t seem to have any kind of police response without at least two cruisers showing up, usually resulting in 3 out of 4 cops standing around.

Most of cops’ time is occupied in matters other than crime prevention. They almost never stop a crime in progress. Like the Alameda county firefighters who wouldn’t go into the water to save a suicidal man, police will not risk their lives to save yours or your kids. They’ll do so for another cop, but not for regular folks.

Cops ignore the law and abuse people because they get off on their authori-tay. Considering how cops are treating people video recording their bad behavior, not unlike how an organized criminal might say, “wadda you lookin’ at?” I don’t think that it’s completely wrong to say that the police are America’s largest organized criminal gang.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 1:26 PM

A counterpoint:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFzH5Oe-YL4

YAY!

Abby Adams on July 21, 2011 at 11:20 AM

It’s absolutely disgusting that this is being held up as an example of what police should do. That video shows a cop illegally detaining and battering a citizen. The cop freely admits that he is aware that the citizen is not committing a crime. Why are we supposed to be grateful that the cop is generally friendly, doesn’t hit anyone with anything, drool on his feet, or compound the crimes he has already committed by attempting to make an illegal arrest for the non-crime?

We’re a dead republic.

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 1:26 PM

This guy was smart. He behaved near-perfectly with an irrational officer.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM

“Police are underpaid and face the dregs of society every day.”

Police are overpaid and are the dregs of society.

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM

You could DO that and the cops wouldn’t get all bent out of shape? Old ladies and young stupid girls wouldn’t get the vapors?
Can’t do that here. Must be concealed from ordinary sight of the citizenry.

Lanceman on July 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM

Oh, the cops got very bent out of shape. Cited some people. Charges were later either dropped, or counter-suits soaked places like the Racine Police Dept. Had my own encounter with Madison’s stormtroopers. One armed college-age kid at a grocery store merited three black-and-whites and a few security guards. Surrounded by trigger-happy thugs who politely informed me that if I kept lawfully open carrying, they’d arrest me. Somehow, they didn’t include that tidbit in the incident report.

Travis Yates on State St, charges dropped. The Culver’s five, charges dropped, counter-suit now in play. A woman in Milwaukee cited for OCing at church. Charges dropped, counter-suit now in play.

I’d say the OC movement is largely responsible for CCW passing, and many will continue to do so, in the same permitless fashion, but with more freedom.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:28 PM

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM

I hope his lawyer makes him rich.

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 1:28 PM

This guy was smart. He behaved near-perfectly with an irrational officer.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:27 PM

Perfectly would have been keeping his mouth shut except to say that he had his CCW, and that he didn’t consent to any searches.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:29 PM

mad saint jack on July 21, 2011 at 11:40 AM

Thank you very much! :)

But I live in CA, so I can only get 10-round mags for my HK; these are only $10 each, not $50 each for the 12-rounders as they are saying over there.

pseudonominus on July 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM

I don’t think that it’s completely wrong to say that the police are America’s largest organized criminal gang.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 1:26 PM

I don’t feel comfortable painting with that broad of a brush. Quite frankly, I think the vast majority of cops enter their jobs with noble intentions. But that’s the first place that cops go wrong.

The job of a police force is not to combat crime. The job of a police force is to deter crime by responding to crimes that have already happened. Such deterrence will never completely rid society of crime, and I think that’s why police work tends to harden an individual. It is stressful and thankless work, but it’s not a long road from unreasonable expectations to overinflated ego.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM

I feel so comfortable knowing that black gloved, roid raged fascists are out there “protecting” us. This cowardly bully deserves whatever public humiliation and career destruction comes his way. He’s more dangerous to society than the criminals.

RadClown on July 21, 2011 at 1:31 PM

Perfectly would have been keeping his mouth shut except to say that he had his CCW, and that he didn’t consent to any searches.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:29 PM

The only thing he ended up being charged with was failure to reveal his CCW despite the fact that he had attempted to do so numerous times. I’m not sure how Ohio law shakes out, but in some states, concealed carry is implied consent to vehicle searches. It can’t be said often enough: It was the cops who screwed up here. You can debate whether the driver acted “perfectly” until you’re blue in the face, but he didn’t break any laws.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:33 PM

We’re a dead republic.

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 1:26 PM

There has to be compromise. Officers are given directives by their departments. Good cops will handle both the directives and individual situations with professional conduct. Many people are still unsure about open carry. If we treat every cop like crap, they will treat us like crap. Best to work towards understanding between law-abiding citizens and good cops. As for the bad cops, if they’re going to get pissed off about you exerting your rights, then those cops deserve to be infuriated.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:34 PM

If we treat every cop like crap, they will treat us like crap. Best to work towards understanding between law-abiding citizens and good cops. As for the bad cops, if they’re going to get pissed off about you exerting your rights, then those cops deserve to be infuriated.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:34 PM

No laws were broken here. What recourse does a citizen have when falsely accused of a crime they did not commit, and video evidence plainly shows it? Looks to me like that cop deserves every bit of public shaming he receives and then-some.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:36 PM

The only thing he ended up being charged with was failure to reveal his CCW despite the fact that he had attempted to do so numerous times. I’m not sure how Ohio law shakes out, but in some states, concealed carry is implied consent to vehicle searches. It can’t be said often enough: It was the cops who screwed up here. You can debate whether the driver acted “perfectly” until you’re blue in the face, but he didn’t break any laws.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:33 PM

I’m not knocking the driver for not doing what I said, I’m simply stating the best possible course of action a citizen can take in such a situation.

1. If the state requires it, alert the officer that you are lawfully armed, and/or give your personal information.
2. State clearly that you don’t consent to any searches.
3. Ask whether you are being detained, or are free to leave.
4. Shut the hell up about everything else.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:37 PM

I’m not knocking the driver for not doing what I said, I’m simply stating the best possible course of action a citizen can take in such a situation.

1. If the state requires it, alert the officer that you are lawfully armed, and/or give your personal information.
2. State clearly that you don’t consent to any searches.
3. Ask whether you are being detained, or are free to leave.
4. Shut the hell up about everything else.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:37 PM

So how’d the driver end up charged with a crime? I don’t get it. What I’m extrapolating from this is that a driver can do everything you recommend and still end up charged with a crime. With no recourse. That’s what bothers me about this more than anything else.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:39 PM

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:28 PM

Had a situation in Tampa some years back. Some nut in a Wal-Mart had succeeded in stabbing an employee and was trying to kill another when a lady standing in line with a gun pulled it, notified the nut job she had a license, and if he didn’t desist and drop the knife she’d shoot him.

The media found this one dumb 24 year old b!tch who whined “I can’t believe she’s allowed to carry a gun!”

Lanceman on July 21, 2011 at 1:40 PM

1. Do you have a license to carry a firearm?
2. Are you in possession of a firearm?

paulsur on July 21, 2011 at 10:53 AM

3. Give the citizen a chance to tell you he/she has a firearm. (A nobrainer in a CHL state)

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:43 PM

1. If the state requires it, alert the officer that you are lawfully armed, and/or give your personal information.

So the officer can shout you down and tell you to quit talking.

2. State clearly that you don’t consent to any searches.

See #1.

3. Ask whether you are being detained, or are free to leave.

See #1

4. Shut the hell up about everything else.

Be charged for not telling the officer you had a CCW even though you tried.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:37 PM

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

Bruce MacMahon on July 21, 2011 at 10:55 AM

Thanks for that story.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

I hope this cops Police chief emulate “Martin Castille” from Miami Vice…

b1jetmech on July 21, 2011 at 1:44 PM

I’m a police officer, Ronnie, but no, I won’t defend this behavior. It is stupid, uncalled for, and makes the rest of us look bad. Feel better? I don’t treat people this way and neither do most of the officers I work with. But as with any place I have worked, there are morons who think they are better than everyone else. This video is hardly indicative of the police force as a whole.

And it can be dangerous work. Our department lost two last year, one being my friend and classmate, and we are a mid-size dept. It does make us jumpy. However, the guy in the video is effing nuts. And an embarrassment.

XWing5 on July 21, 2011 at 1:45 PM

That didn’t come out right, Galt. I don’t think that gun ownership is necessarily a moral imperative, as there are practical reasons for some people not to own guns. But if gun owners refuse to register for concealed carry because they are fearful of bad cops, then the entire second amendment gets ceded away to fear. That kind of cowardice is something I’m not comfortable associating with the American ideal.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:14 PM

Gryphon, the fact that any American citizen has to register to exerciser his Second Amendment right is ridiculous to start with. What if I had to get a permit to go to church, or say, “Cops suck!” on the sidewalk of my hometown?

Rights don’t need permits. Rights just need someone to exercise them. The aren’t really any practical reasons to prevent anyone from owning a gun.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 1:45 PM

What’s the point of the permit if you get threatened with death and arrested and charged even though you had a permit?

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 12:57 PM

Use your rights, or lose your rights.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:08 PM

I think “bear arms” says it all. We’ve already abrogated a large portion of our Second Amendment rights by having to get licensed to carry the things in the first place.

I’m still taken aback when I see police officers berating citizens for not having ID even if they aren’t driving a vehicle on these reality shows.

Can foresee the day where we will be routinely interrogated at long-term road blocks and searched for the officer’s “safety”. If you’re out and about, it seems to take on a predator-prey relationship.

Dr. ZhivBlago on July 21, 2011 at 1:45 PM

Rights don’t need permits. Rights just need someone to exercise them. The aren’t really any practical reasons to prevent anyone from owning a gun.

j_galt on July 21, 2011 at 1:45 PM

I’m okay with state-level licensing as long as the full-faith-and-credit clause is adhered to. What I’m not okay with is federal interference. If you’re not happy with things the way they are now wherever you are, you can always come to a shall-issue no-notification state like my home state of South Dakota, one of the freest firearm states in the union. ;-)

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:47 PM

Solaratov on July 21, 2011 at 12:35 PM

Now that is a real pistol. As I said before in this thread, handgun design peaked in 1911.

novaculus on July 21, 2011 at 1:52 PM

MadisonConservative,

Michigan has an open carry law. I’ve been thinking of getting a small semi automatic, a Taurus, Kel-Tec or maybe a revolver. I have small hands and a typical S&W or Glock pistol feels uncomfortably large.

Knowing about some of the incidents with cops over open carry I stopped into my local PD and spoke to a Lt. and told her that I was thinking of open carrying and wanted to know what kind of hassle I could expect from the local cops.

Her first response was “Why would you want to do that?”

So I told her, “Why would I want to express any other constitutional right? Would you ask me why I want to speak freely or to not incriminate myself?”

She said that I had a point though she also told me that I shouldn’t be surprised if their officers stop me.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 1:53 PM

Oh, good, another rogue cop thread. 600 comments or bust!

flipflop on July 21, 2011 at 1:53 PM

Hmmmm….

Out: To protect and serve
In: To put 10 rounds in your ass and not lose any sleep

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 1:54 PM

If we treat every cop like crap, they will treat us like crap. Best to work towards understanding between law-abiding citizens and good cops. As for the bad cops, if they’re going to get pissed off about you exerting your rights, then those cops deserve to be infuriated.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:34 PM

Cops are public servants, paid to perform a job in a professional manner that respects the rights of the citizens they’re charged with serving and protecting.

“We” are not. Our only obligation is to obey the law. If this cop or any other can’t maintain his composure and control his emotions when he feels disrespected, he shouldn’t be allowed to wear a badge.

Hollowpoint on July 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

So how’d the driver end up charged with a crime? I don’t get it. What I’m extrapolating from this is that a driver can do everything you recommend and still end up charged with a crime. With no recourse. That’s what bothers me about this more than anything else.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:39 PM

They can. If they do, the steps I listed are the best a person can do to protect themselves. The less they say, the less that can be used against them. If they refuse consent, and the officers go forth without a warrant, all found evidence can be thrown out in court. Sometimes, your encounter is just not going to end well. The steps I listed are what you can do to ensure that you don’t make it worse.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

We should take the officer very seriously when he says something to the effect of “If this kind of thing happens one more time, I’m going to lose it.” Not to mention, of course, that he regrets not having murdered the driver.

Unprofessionalism my ass. We’re talking mental/emotional breakdown here. He should be removed from the force permanently and psychologically evaluated and institutionalized if need be.

He needs to find another line of work. He should never be allowed to own or handle a gun again–it’s too dangerous to the public at large.

Pilgrimsarbour on July 21, 2011 at 1:56 PM

I recently learned that, here in Indiana, I am required to identify myself if a uniformed officer asks but I really don’t know if I’m required to identify my status as legally armed. Gotta do some homework on this. BTW, I’m considering saving up for a Ruger SR1911 in addition to my .40 and the .380 that I carry concealed. If I get one I will carry open and to hell with the whiners and looky-loos. Nothing says “don’t f*** with me” like a full-size, stainless .45.

Extrafishy on July 21, 2011 at 1:56 PM

“We” are not. Our only obligation is to obey the law. If this cop or any other can’t maintain his composure and control his emotions when he feels disrespected, he shouldn’t be allowed to wear a badge.

Hollowpoint on July 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

I wasn’t referring to the moron in the video featured in the post. I was referring to a video linked by Abby Adams in the comments which displayed pure professionalism by an LEO.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:56 PM

Our only obligation is to obey the law.

Hollowpoint on July 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

Hear hear!

+1!

This!

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:56 PM

“There has to be compromise.”

We gave up one of the most power ideas in human history. What did we get in return? The compromise is called government, and its authority is appropriately exercised when one person infringes upon the rights of another–never when a person is lawfully minding his own business.

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 1:57 PM

The steps I listed are what you can do to ensure that you don’t make it worse.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

I’m not sure exactly how this applies in this situation, as it appears the driver did everything in his power to follow your advice…but I must admit, the advice is good. If there is any justice at all to be had here, the cop gets canned and the citizen walks.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM

A counterpoint:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFzH5Oe-YL4
YAY!

Abby Adams on July 21, 2011 at 11:20 AM

Thanks for that. Recommend everyone see that.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM

She said that I had a point though she also told me that I shouldn’t be surprised if their officers stop me.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 1:53 PM

Stops will almost definitely occur. Learn the laws of your state regarding open carry, and be prepared to calmly exert your rights should the situation occur.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM

Cop on a power trip. The cop should never be allowed to return to work and probably needs to face some jail time.

taney71 on July 21, 2011 at 1:59 PM

I’m not sure exactly how this applies in this situation, as it appears the driver did everything in his power to follow your advice…but I must admit, the advice is good. If there is any justice at all to be had here, the cop gets canned and the citizen walks.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM

He kept talking about his situation. Cop doesn’t care. Cop wants an arrest, and to push you around. Shut up about the circumstances. Don’t incriminate yourself.

Also, I never heard him say he didn’t consent to any searches. That phrase is VITAL. He should have said it immediately.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM

Cop on a power trip. The cop should never be allowed to return to work and probably needs to face some jail time.

taney71 on July 21, 2011 at 1:59 PM

The cop won’t face any jail time. Not unless there’s some sort of blatant criminality going on here, and I’m not really sure that there is. To me, it seems like more a question of whether the cop followed procedure or not.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:01 PM

If we treat every cop like crap, they will treat us like crap. Best to work towards understanding between law-abiding citizens and good cops. As for the bad cops, if they’re going to get pissed off about you exerting your rights, then those cops deserve to be infuriated.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:34 PM

“I’ll give you lumps, even though you aren’t doing anything wrong”

“Cave in your skull, only because I’m pissed because I got scared by your right to carry a weapon”

“10 rounds in your ass and let you drop”

This man is not a cop. Or a police officer. He should be known as unemployed, and the CPD should writing a gigantic check for denying the driver his constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

If a PO thinks citizens carrying guns is too scary, maybe he should become a crossing guard or a librarian.

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 2:01 PM

Wow. I was beginning to wonder if the guy was going to make it to jail alive. Only one cop got suspended? What was the other…chopped liver?

tinkerthinker on July 21, 2011 at 2:03 PM

There’s been quite a few cops getting out of hand lately.
Newark cop tries to arrest a news cameraman.
Man shot in back by police for not paying train fare. WARNING: GRAPHIC.

mizflame98 on July 21, 2011 at 2:04 PM

If this cop or any other can’t maintain his composure and control his emotions when he feels disrespected, he shouldn’t be allowed to wear a badge.

Hollowpoint on July 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

*****************************************

Or carry a deadly weapon.

NMRN123 on July 21, 2011 at 2:04 PM

So how’d the driver end up charged with a crime? I don’t get it. What I’m extrapolating from this is that a driver can do everything you recommend and still end up charged with a crime. With no recourse. That’s what bothers me about this more than anything else.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:39 PM

Thank god for video. Sometimes.

Have you ever seen the entire Rodney King video? It tells a much different story than what we were fed via the news cycle.

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 2:05 PM

If there is any justice at all to be had here, the cop gets canned and the citizen walks gets a large sum of money from the city so it never happens again.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM

Fixed.

Lanceman on July 21, 2011 at 2:06 PM

He kept talking about his situation. Cop doesn’t care. Cop wants an arrest, and to push you around. Shut up about the circumstances. Don’t incriminate yourself.

Also, I never heard him say he didn’t consent to any searches. That phrase is VITAL. He should have said it immediately.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM

You didn’t hear it because the cop kept shouting him down anytime he tried to say anything. You heard him try to say “I have a…” and there is no reason to believe the cop would have let him ask, “Am I being searched? Because I don’t consent.” He was charged with a crime he didn’t commit, and unless Ohio CCW implies consent, he was subject to a search he didn’t consent to for a cause that may or may not be considered reasonable. Unless you’re advocating for a citizen trying to shout over a cop during a traffic stop, which I’m sure would go over real well: “I told you I did not ****ing consent to this ****ing search. Now would you tell me if I am being ****ing detained or if I’m free to go on my ****ing merry way?!”

This is the only point I really diametrically disagree with you on, Maddie. You seem to assume good faith on the part of a cop who apparently feels he is under no obligation whatsoever to listen to anything the law explicitly requires a citizen to tell him, nor does he feel under any obligation to answer any question the law explicitly requires he answer. That is a recipe for a police force PR disaster when the cop decides to drag the driver out of the front seat and rough him up for “being unccooperative.”

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:06 PM

One e-mailer called the Canton PD and spoke to a lieutenant, whom the e-mailer described as “embarrassed” by the story and “truly remorseful.”

I call BS and here’s why …

Someone requested this video from the Police Department – these Dash Cams aren’t readily available without a request.

And … what’s sure is … that BEFORE providing this to whomever requested it – the Police Department reviewed the contents.

Any THINKING individual would have IMMEDIATELY began an investigation and suspended this Cop.

That DID NOT HAPPEN until the video was posted on YouTube and a public outcry errupted. Soooo … this “sorrow” coming from the PD is “feigned” and produced only by the PR nightmare they’re going through rather than any sorrow that this Cop unlawfully superceded this man’s civil rights.

And leave WITH pay? WTF is that?

I’m sorry – but “due process” applies to a judgement of guilt or innocence – not a paycheck for sitting around the house on your ass all day because you’re too stupid to understand the Bill of Rights.

HondaV65 on July 21, 2011 at 2:06 PM

XWing5,

Thanks for the polite response.

I don’t treat people this way and neither do most of the officers I work with. But as with any place I have worked, there are morons who think they are better than everyone else.

The problem with the “cops are just like everyone else” mantra of defending cops is that cops are not just like everyone else. Most people who are not government employees cannot give it back when given attitude on the job. In the specific case of cops, they have the legal authority to deprive you (temporarily or otherwise) of your liberty and your property. Who of “everyone else” has that authority and discretion to use it in our society?

Also, everyplace that I worked had an 80/20 rule. Twenty percent of people did 80% of the work, and the other 80% of the people mostly occupied space and time. Tell that to someone in the private sector and they’ll ruefully laugh with you. Tell that to a cop, and you risk an arrest. That’s not an exaggeration. At the Woodward Dream Cruise (I write professionally about car culture) I was having a polite and mutually respectful discussion with a cop. I was giving him the business, but being polite about it, and he was being polite back. One of his cop buddies, though, kept looking more an more agitated and finally couldn’t restrain himself and made a personally insulting remark to me.

I questioned why he was being rude, as I’d not acted that way. He was specifically upset about what I’d said about the 20/80 rule. My comment that cops were just as inept and lazy as everyone else (which is not how I put it) was taken as an attack on cops. I jawed with him for a few seconds until a superior officer told me to move it along in that command presence tone of voice cops are taught to use with everyone, even though they aren’t my commander. That tone implies do it or else you get arrested so I got on my bike and rode away.

My question to the cops who insist that the majority of cops are good cops and don’t abuse people (or violate the law in a myriad of petty and not so petty ways, from illegal parking to murder), what are you and the other good cops doing about the morons? It seems to me that the only time something is done about it when a video of Cops Behaving Badly shows up on YouTube or when someone gets abused so badly that it can’t be covered up.

You insist most cops are good, but you can’t be a good cop if you turn a blind eye to the misdeeds of your fellow officers out of some thin blue line concept of solidarity. If you can’t trust him or her to have your back unless you ignore their corruption, can you really trust them?

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 2:07 PM

Depravity of man on display on yet another profession. “..he’s making the profession look bad.”

There are bad cops, lawyers, politicians, car salesmen, bakers, garbagemen and clergy.

But remember, there are never bad minorities, doctors, philanthropists, journalists, teachers or scientists. NEVER!

shick on July 21, 2011 at 2:08 PM

I should have included network engineers in the NEVER category.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 2:09 PM

ou didn’t hear it because the cop kept shouting him down anytime he tried to say anything. You heard him try to say “I have a…” and there is no reason to believe the cop would have let him ask, “Am I being searched? Because I don’t consent.” He was charged with a crime he didn’t commit, and unless Ohio CCW implies consent, he was subject to a search he didn’t consent to for a cause that may or may not be considered reasonable. Unless you’re advocating for a citizen trying to shout over a cop during a traffic stop, which I’m sure would go over real well: “I told you I did not ****ing consent to this ****ing search. Now would you tell me if I am being ****ing detained or if I’m free to go on my ****ing merry way?!”

You have the right to refuse consent for searches. Say it loud enough that the camera catches it, or other witnesses. He cannot lawfully stop you from making that statement.

This is the only point I really diametrically disagree with you on, Maddie. You seem to assume good faith on the part of a cop who apparently feels he is under no obligation whatsoever to listen to anything the law explicitly requires a citizen to tell him, nor does he feel under any obligation to answer any question the law explicitly requires he answer. That is a recipe for a police force PR disaster when the cop decides to drag the driver out of the front seat and rough him up for “being unccooperative.”

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:06 PM

Good lord. I’m not talking about winning over the cop. I’m talking about protecting yourself in the courts afterwards. If a cop wants to arrest you, he’s going to. If he wants to search, he’s going to. However, all of the cop’s actions can be null and void if you know how to assert your rights. I’m not concerned with the interaction with the cop. If he’s a creep from the beginning, he’s going to be a creep till the end. If the officer is going to rough you up, and you don’t want to kowtow, it’s going to happen. Let the camera catch it, and call your lawyer as soon as you get a chance.

Just as how cops are supposed to deal with the aftermath of a crime, lawyers are supposed to deal with the aftermath of the same when cops are the criminals.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:11 PM

Well, I guess that the police officer could learn a leasson in all of this – that safety in a stop like this requires two-way communication rather than just him interupting everyone when they are trying to convey information to him in a calm and non-aggressive manner.

Scrappy on July 21, 2011 at 2:11 PM

What’s to investigate?
Watch the video.
Seems to me an open and shut case. The officer is/was in the wrong. Period.

bridgetown on July 21, 2011 at 2:12 PM

But remember, there are never bad minorities, doctors, philanthropists, journalists, teachers or scientists. NEVER!

shick on July 21, 2011 at 2:08 PM

These professions don’t have a license to shoot you, and then be backed up by an entire police force.

“I can shoot you right now, make up any story I want and go home and have supper. You, I’ll let you bleed to death before I call it in.”

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 2:13 PM

I think a big part of the problem is that police academies stress command presence more than situational awareness.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 2:13 PM

shick on July 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM

Again, what am I supposed to think is good about the officers’ conduct in that video?

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 2:14 PM

Just as how cops are supposed to deal with the aftermath of a crime, lawyers are supposed to deal with the aftermath of the same when cops are the criminals.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:11 PM

Then it bears repeating: That cop should lose his job and that man should walk. And as a fellow commenter posted earlier in this thread, I wouldn’t shed a tear if the citizen got a fat payout from the city (though I doubt it will happen).

There was very little that the driver could have done to protect himself without putting himself in danger as long as he was at the mercy of an emotional police officer. Does that sound like a terrible way to talk about a cop? Yeah, it does. Oh well. It says more about the modern policing profession than it does about my attitude.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:15 PM

The officer in the first video, not “officers’.” I misplaced the apostrophe.

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 2:17 PM

If a cop wants to arrest you, he’s going to. If he wants to search, he’s going to.

Constitution be damned! This is police business!

Mad, it is precisely that type of thinking that allows PO’s to feel secure in whatever they want to do.

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 2:17 PM

Then it bears repeating: That cop should lose his job and that man should walk. And as a fellow commenter posted earlier in this thread, I wouldn’t shed a tear if the citizen got a fat payout from the city (though I doubt it will happen).

Completely agreed.

There was very little that the driver could have done to protect himself without putting himself in danger as long as he was at the mercy of an emotional police officer. Does that sound like a terrible way to talk about a cop? Yeah, it does. Oh well. It says more about the modern policing profession than it does about my attitude.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:15 PM

Watch this video.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:17 PM

I think a big part of the problem is that police academies stress command presence more than situational awareness.

rokemronnie on July 21, 2011 at 2:13 PM

Most emphasis is on CBA requirements.

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 2:18 PM

Constitution be damned! This is police business!

Mad, it is precisely that type of thinking that allows PO’s to feel secure in whatever they want to do.

BobMbx on July 21, 2011 at 2:17 PM

Stop misrepresenting my views, muppet. Pay attention to what I’m responding to.

It is a FACT that if an LEO wants to do something, he’s going to, legal or not. I’m talking about how citizens can protect themselves against police violating their rights. Refuse consent to illegal searches, and then it doesn’t matter what they find. Don’t talk with them, and they can’t use your words against you.

And as I pointed out to an earlier poster, I wasn’t defending the idiot in the video up top. I was defending the cop in a video posted by Abby Adams showing an optimal encounter between an open carrier and a California officer.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:20 PM

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:17 PM

I’ve seen that video. Was this stop anything resembling a “police interview?” Usually that advice from the video you posted is good advice to follow once you’ve been charged with a crime. And again, I’m not aware that the driver tried to say anything except to comply with the CCW law.

The problem with refusal to comply in a traffic stop is that most cities have ordinances against “interfering with the duties of a duly sworn law officer.” Even in my small and relatively conservative hometown, I know that citizens have been purposely harassed that way before. Tends to go along the line of, “You’re not going to let me search your car? Fine. I’ll take you to County and you can cool your heels for the night while I search your car anyway.” I can only imagine how bad it is in larger cities.

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:23 PM

Perfectly would have been keeping his mouth shut except to say that he had his CCW, and that he didn’t consent to any searches.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 1:29 PM

Disagree there. He was being respectful even when the LEO didn’t show him any. He tried to tell him many times. I don’t know if I could have done better. But you are probably smarter than the rest of us.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 2:24 PM

vermin on July 21, 2011 at 1:28 PM

I don’t. I really think lawsuits should be reserved for recalcitrant departments that think they can act with impunity.

DrMagnolias on July 21, 2011 at 2:25 PM

I’ve seen that video. Was this stop anything resembling a “police interview?”

gryphon202 on July 21, 2011 at 2:23 PM

A police interview begins the moment an officer of the law engages you in conversation. I don’t care if he pulls you over for speeding. Every police encounter is a police interview. Anything that you say can be used against you. ANYTHING.

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:25 PM

Disagree there. He was being respectful even when the LEO didn’t show him any. He tried to tell him many times. I don’t know if I could have done better. But you are probably smarter than the rest of us.

shick on July 21, 2011 at 2:24 PM

Pardon me for pointing out the advice given by pretty much all lawyers and civil rights organizations. How dare I point out that he might have done something better, right? How dare I attempt to give advice to others who might end up in the situation?

MadisonConservative on July 21, 2011 at 2:27 PM

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