Open thread: The troops are coming home from Afghanistan

posted at 7:40 pm on June 22, 2011 by Allahpundit

Not all of them, and not right now, but a lot and soon enough. 8 p.m. ET, all across the dial, The One will lay out his withdrawal blueprint. If you’re on pins and needles wondering what he’ll do, let me ease your pain:

President Obama plans to announce Wednesday evening that he will order the withdrawal of 10,000 American troops from Afghanistan this year, and another 20,000 troops, the remainder of the 2009 “surge,” by the end of next summer, according to administration officials and diplomats briefed on the decision.

These troop reductions are both deeper and faster than the recommendations made by Mr. Obama’s military commanders, and they reflect mounting political and economic pressures at home, as the president faces relentless budget pressures and an increasingly restive Congress and American public…

Two administration officials said General Petraeus did not endorse the decision, though both Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, who is retiring, and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reluctantly accepted it. General Petraeus had recommended limiting initial withdrawals and leaving in place as many combat forces as possible for another fighting season, to hold on to fragile gains made in recent fighting.

The Guardian also heard last night that O was about to yank the surge troops over the Pentagon’s objections, with generals pleading with him to give them one more fighting season against the Taliban with full manpower in order to maximize NATO’s leverage at the bargaining table. No dice. How could it have been otherwise? He had all the political cover for a major withdrawal that he could have hoped for here — from the public, from anti-war Democrats, and even from a GOP that seems unsure what its position is anymore on military interventions. I thought last night that he’d do what he always does and piss everyone off by splitting the difference between two rival camps in order to position himself as the cautious pragmatist, but he’s not actually doing that. By ignoring the Pentagon’s wishes and ordering all the surge troops out by next summer, he should make doves pretty happy. And rest assured, conditions on the ground won’t dictate the pace of this withdrawal: The timing here is obviously designed to give him a big talking point ahead of the election about bringing the boys home, so they’ll most assuredly be home by next summer.

All that said, he’s still going to frame this as a “cautious pragmatist” decision; the pragmatism will lie in the fact that roughly 70,000 troops will remain in country once the surge troops are out, a number that won’t be enough to support a robust counterinsurgency campaign but will be enough for him to convince voters that he’s not rashly pulling the plug on the entire mission. Expect three basic points tonight: We killed Osama, we’ve taken some of the Taliban’s territory and killed plenty of their men, and we’re continuing the process of training Afghanistan’s military. Ergo, we can afford to withdraw. (There’ll also be a super-keen NATO summit next year, just to prove we’re keeping our eye on the ball.) Don’t expect much on Pakistan, I’d imagine. No doubt there’ll be lip service paid to how important our “partnership” is, but there’s been too much news lately about their treachery for even modestly informed voters to take that seriously. In case he does end up blowing some diplomatic smoke up America’s butt about our good friends in Islamabad, take two minutes before tuning in to read this. That’s a wider, brighter window into the sort of entrenched cretinism we’re dealing with here than anything O will say tonight.

Exit question: How will top Republicans respond? Their criticism of The One on Libya tempts me to think they’ll grudgingly support him on this, but I don’t think that’s true. If Petraeus had blessed this scale of withdrawal, that’d be one thing, but defying the Pentagon’s judgment leaves Obama plenty exposed to attacks. Boehner hinted at that earlier, in fact, and just within the past few hours Byron York reported that a new group of conservative hawks is forming to pressure the newly ambivalent GOP into supporting interventionism. From a political standpoint, it’s only logical that Republican candidates will look for something to criticize here, but they can read those polls on Afghanistan too. Expect a day or two of complaining, and then back to the economy they go.

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hawk…you’re becoming one of this “Proud Army Mom’s” heroes.
There have been more casualties in Afghanistan under Obama, then any other POTUS.
Having 2 deployed sons, I would certainly love to have them both home…..tomorrow. But they both have buddies and fellow servicemen affected by this war, to leave now would seem like it was all for not.
One of my sons has already extended his deployment 4 months…”mom, if something happened to one of them after I left, I couldn’t bear it”.

Why can’t we just let the Generals run the wars and keep the politicians out of it.

THIS…..is a keeper and should be shouted from the rooftops.
http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/6808491216/troop-drawdown-obama-still-leaves-twice-as-many

tencole on June 23, 2011 at 12:33 AM

tencole on June 23, 2011 at 12:50 AM

Observe, or read accounts?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:48 AM

No, I have never been to this Afcrapistan – even as a congressman on a Dog and Pony show – if that is what you are saying. Most oncologists have never had cancer either. And some had it in the past and got over it.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 12:54 AM

If a doctor told you that drinking 2 bottles of Seagrams while speeding down the road while talking on a cell phone and reading a newspaper was a bad idea, would you think he wanted you to die?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 12:48 AM

The world is vexing enough without dealing in hypotheticals. I reject the premise your analogy has anything to do with the war.

Maybe I could ask you, “If a police officer told you a killer was going to come into your bedroom and smash your skull with a history book, would you get the officer to stop him?”

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:55 AM

Hawkdriver, I will have to put you in touch with “my man” in Afcrapistan, SKIP, one of these days.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 12:55 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 12:54 AM

Well, you have even bigger condemnations of our time in Viet Nam, surly you served there?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:56 AM

Maybe I could ask you, “If a police officer told you a killer was going to come into your bedroom and smash your skull with a history book, would you get the officer to stop him?”

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:55 AM

I’d probably ask how Newt Gingrich got my address….

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 12:57 AM

Hawkdriver, I will have to put you in touch with “my man” in Afcrapistan, SKIP, one of these days.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 12:55 AM

You go and tell me for yourself.

I mean, why should I take Skippy’s word for anything since I’ve been there myself twice and can talk to thousands of people I know that are either there or been there.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:59 AM

OT: Twins are about to lose to the Giants.

AHHH… I hate losing to hippietown.

Nelsen on June 23, 2011 at 1:00 AM

Maybe I could ask you, “If a police officer told you a killer was going to come into your bedroom and smash your skull with a history book, would you get the officer to stop him?”

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:55 AM

I have a pretty hard head so it would have to be a history book of stone for me to be very concerned about it. And if I thought the officer would just be sent by the mayor and police chief to some hole called Afghanistan to prevent this dastardly act, rather to my town, I wouldn’t waste my time.

This reminds me – I can’t find SKIP right now, but maybe I will introduce you to my little friend Bessie.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:03 AM

That’s the question I want answered? What is victory in Afghanistan? It used to be get Osama. Well, check. Now what?

Nelsen on June 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM

Complete victory means that we win and our enemies lose, the only valid objective of any war. Yet, I understand fully the implication of your question, which really goes to the issue of whether our current CinC or Congress or anyone inside the Beltway even have a clue about why and when and where to throw precious flesh and blood and treasure toward that end. It is at once a sorrow and a shame.

TXUS on June 23, 2011 at 1:04 AM

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:56 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 12:55 AM

I have to say that some of the best discussions I’ve read in the HotAir comments have been between you two (if you really are MB4). It usually goes something like this.

– The United States of America must be very thrifty with the lives of our sons and daughters in the armed forces, and with the treasure of its citizens.

– The United States of America must take full account of how those sons and daughters feel about what they are doing, and, those same sons and daughters have a duty to their country which they should not turn away from because they are the only ones who can hold this country together in this hostile world.

fascinating.

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:07 AM

tencole on June 23, 2011 at 12:50 AM

I’m sorry I missed this. You’re sweet to say such nice things. But you’re right. It can be an impossible thing for some to understand, but soldiers and families of soldiers do. It’s my prayers they all come home safe and are able to return with honor.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:07 AM

You go and tell me for yourself.

No. Wouldn’t be prudent. I would rather go to Germany or Japan or maybe China … … or even … … France. Why would I want to go to AfCRAPistan? Will you take your vacations there?

I mean, why should I take Skippy’s word for anything since I’ve been there myself twice and can talk to thousands of people I know that are either there or been there.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 12:59 AM

He has been there just about forever (contractor – ex army) and speaks the language … … and better still … … they don’t know he speaks the language.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:09 AM

TXUS on June 23, 2011 at 1:04 AM

What do you define as the criteria for winning in Afghanistan and how do you measure those criteria?
If you say all Taliban dead how do you determine how many exist to match against how many dead?
If you say a pro American government how many years and casualties are acceptable? What minimal conditions make it a pro-American government?

If the previous Cinc had been better shouldn’t we have already won? If we are allowing elected officials to send our troops into harms way and you are not confident they have a clue what should be done how can you seriously state that we should support a war for “as long as it takes and pay whatever bill”?

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:10 AM

This reminds me – I can’t find SKIP right now, but maybe I will introduce you to my little friend Bessie.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:03 AM

Not sure what that even means. What, are you like The Riddler now too?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:10 AM

I have to say that some of the best discussions I’ve read in the HotAir comments have been between you two (if you really are MB4). It usually goes something like this.

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:07 AM

Sometimes a cigar is not just a cigar. Hal Jordan is really Hawkdriver. Tricky devil. He can’t fool me though.

Sigmund on June 23, 2011 at 1:16 AM

Sigmund on June 23, 2011 at 1:16 AM

You mean Hawkdriver is really MB4?!!

Brilliant!

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:18 AM

Not sure what that even means. What, are you like The Riddler now too?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:10 AM

OK, since you insist, I’ll go see if I can find Bessie. I will have to post for her though.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:18 AM

He has been there just about forever (contractor – ex army) and speaks the language … … and better still … … they don’t know he speaks the language.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:09 AM

Oh, well! What was I thinking? You know a contractor! And he’s going to set me straight. On the entire war where neither my own experineces or the experiences of the comrades I’ve served in combat with, provide enough history and facts for me to form my own opinion.

Please tell him to send all pertinent info he’d like to provide me to didmb4serveinvietnamornot.com. And you can tell Bessie to drop me a note at the same address. I just can’t wait.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:19 AM

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:18 AM

If that is true then I double as Kingsjester…/sarc

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:19 AM

OK, since you insist, I’ll go see if I can find Bessie. I will have to post for her though.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:18 AM

I’ll pass. I’m not sure if she’d be just another sockpuppet of yours anyways. MB4, Skippy, Bessie, HalJordan. Did any of them serve in Viet Nam?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:22 AM

I found Bessie. She says to say this -

I have witnessed a very similar insanity and heartbreak myself. There is a very bad neighborhood clear on the opposite side of town. I have never been there but people whom I trust have told me that all the men in that neighborhood are very bad nasty men, beyond redemption and salvation due to all being throwbacks and members of this evil Satanic Cult and never to be trusted at all.

For the last 10 years various authoritative sounding men have been coming around our neighborhood taking lots of money from us to spend on those nasty men over there when I feel our money could be much better spent here at home. Even worse is that these authoritative men, David something now is the main one, have been ordering a lot of the young sons of our neighborhood into going there to help those nasty men and less and less of them are coming back. David says this must be done else the nasty men over there will all come over here and kill us all in our sleep. This makes no sense at all as if we just kept our neighborhood’s fine young men at home they could be here to stop any of those nasty men from even getting into our neighborhood in the first place or beat the unholy tar out of any who did.

There are other men who are taking a lot of the jobs in our neighborhood as they work so cheap and overcrowd our neighborhood hospital and never pay. They also have an ungodly number of offspring who are overcrowding our school and forming gangs. I think our neighborhood would be a whole lot better off if that David would just go suck an egg and leave our young men here. I think our young men and their girl friends would be a whole lot better off too. With all the money we could save in just a few months, we could build a big wall on the south side of our neighborhood to keep them all out. My neighbor lady thinks this latest charlatan David must be a very constipated man and that he badly needs an enema.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:22 AM

Did any of them serve in Viet Nam?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:22 AM

Define service.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:24 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:22 AM

Wow, Bessie writes fast.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:24 AM

Define service.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:24 AM

MB4, Skippy, Bessie, HalJordan, and now Senator Blumenthal it seems. Did you serve in any war?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:26 AM

Define service.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:24 AM

I believe for purposes of this thread if you are for the indefinite deployment of large numbers in Afghanistan and willing to pay the cost of that, then service is not a requirement. (see TXUS comments)
However, if you have reservations about the war and its prosecution your service history becomes very important and you should be ready with a copy of your DD214.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:28 AM

Well bedtime for bonzo Bradky. Don’t stay up too late Hawk, Hal, Bessie and the the others.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:31 AM

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:28 AM

Considering we tried to cow someone into “our” opinion by asserting they should be drafted for the crime of supporting our troops and willing to use money to do that, I’m a bit confused with your snipe. Is not the same sauce for the goose, good for the gander? The chickenhawk debate is fun because you know it’s almost impossible to combat right? No one should be allowed to support the war, without being willing to serve in it right? But no qualifications are required for one that wants to protest it, right?

The bottom line is that MB4 says he has some inner knowledge that trumps my entire understanding of all modern warfare. The other bottom line is that I’ve asked him for years and he is always cryptic about it. Why is it hard to just say yes or no?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

If that is true then I double as Kingsjester…/sarc

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:19 AM

I’m not sure who Kingsjester is. Your nemesis at HotAir?

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:39 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:22 AM

You are MB4. Classic. You freaking argue till you have no other points to try and then you sink into freaking gibberish that means nothing to any of us and I’m fairly certain, means even less to you. I don’t think you really know a damn thing about the military, let alone a war.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:41 AM

I’m not sure who Kingsjester is. Your nemesis at HotAir?

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:39 AM

He wishes.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:41 AM

Oh, well! What was I thinking? You know a contractor! And he’s going to set me straight.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:19 AM

Well someone must and I don’t seem to be having much success.

Maybe if I call in some big name quests.

I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself. – Alexis de Tocqueville He also said, no protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic country.

Muslim morals consist only in attending mosque regularly on the appointed Sabbath, and in breaking the ten commandments all the balance of the week. It comes natural to them to lie and cheat in the first place, and then they go on and improve on nature until they arrive at perfection. – Mark Twain

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
- Winston Churchill

Here was the new Koran of faith and war: turgid, verbose, shapeless, but pregnant with its message.
- Winston Churchill (Equating Adolf Hiler’s “Mein Kampf” to the Koran in his book the “The Gathering Storm”)

There is no salvaging Islam, which was founded by one of the most vile and despicable men to ever walk the face of the Earth. It is an absolute disgrace to mankind and an absolute abomination on womankind. If we are going to intervene in Islamic countries, it should not be to try to Nation Build it, but rather to destroy it. It should not be ask what Woodrow Wilson would do. What would George Patton do? What would Charles Martel do? What would Pope Urban II do?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:43 AM

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

If you look at some of his early comments you might find an answer.

Why is it hard to just say yes or no?

For a lot of people, anonymity is important. It helps assure that your comments will be taken at face value.

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:44 AM

He wishes.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:41 AM

If you follow the top-line Drudge story to the Guardian story, at the bottom there is an admission that the theater will not be entirely abandoned until after 2014, which is two long years after we eject our POS POTUS, so all is not lost.

John the Libertarian on June 23, 2011 at 1:45 AM

You are MB4. Classic. You freaking argue till you have no other points to try and then you sink into freaking gibberish that means nothing to any of us and I’m fairly certain, means even less to you. I don’t think you really know a damn thing about the military, let alone a war.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:41 AM

“Gibberish” can have a message, if only you can find it. But you will never find it with an attitude like that. I knew enough to get out after 3 years, 5 months and 11 days. 1193.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:48 AM

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:44 AM

And for others, to answer with the response that would give their remarks the most credibility, would be a lie. So they say nothing.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:52 AM

I don’t think you really know a damn thing about the military, let alone a war.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:41 AM

I doubt that even Joe Isuzu could bring himself to declare Afghanistan any kind of success with a straight face.

“Afghanistan is a great success and will soon be an even greater one if we just stay the course. You have my word on it. If I’m lying, may lightning hit my mother.” (“Good luck, Mom!” appears on screen.)

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:53 AM

The big difference to me, now that we’re talking about it, is what is important.

To Jews and Christians – accomplishment
To Muslims – Pride

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 1:53 AM

John the Libertarian on June 23, 2011 at 1:45 AM

Thanks for the link John. I honestly can’t read what his intentions are. I suspect, he focuses more on election results that anything else.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:55 AM

KMAGYOYO. If you don’t know what that means, ask Hawk, or some other patriot. Good night to all.

TXUS on June 23, 2011 at 1:56 AM

I believe for purposes of this thread if you are for the indefinite deployment of large numbers in Afghanistan and willing to pay the cost of that, then service is not a requirement. (see TXUS comments)
However, if you have reservations about the war and its prosecution your service history becomes very important and you should be ready with a copy of your DD214.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 1:28 AM

That seems to be the way it works.

I actually have 2 dd214′s but apparently I must need 3.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:58 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:53 AM

Yep, the compelling argument just gets stronger with every passing comment. Joe Isuzu, lightning! Isn’t it time for you to misspell Afghanistan again or use some childish derogatory term for one of our most respected military leaders?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:00 AM

KMAGYOYO. If you don’t know what that means, ask Hawk, or some other patriot. Good night to all.

TXUS on June 23, 2011 at 1:56 AM

We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter — exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place — the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else’s keeping. This is patriotism on the Russian plan.
- Mark Twain

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:02 AM

That seems to be the way it works.

I actually have 2 dd214′s but apparently I must need 3.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:58 AM

But you can call other commenters Chickenhawks, right? Or at least insinuate? Threaten them with the opinion that we ought to start the draft. That’ll shut those posers up, right?

Smacks of heavy hypocrisy. Yes, that does seem to be the way it works.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:02 AM

BZ Hawk!
You were MOT then,
as you certainly are now.
Hand Salute

What has changed tho is that the Political Winds from home have turned even more FOWL! Such that the Chicken’s see the sky falling, and the Enemy’s morale is lifted — while the *American Warfighter* is shafted, yet again!

I Thank God that most of our servicemen and women will continue to do their DUTY with Honor! Regardless of the stinkin Jackassery demonstrated by DC POLiticians and the rank n’ file cowards who now rubberstamp them!

I expect the DC Clowns will get yet another opportunity to line up on the Capitol Steps — knees knocking — singing an off-key rendition of God Bless America…

…A flight of mine, not ten days ago, was instructed to break contact and return to base because my trail aircraft received one round through a cockpit windscreen. We had an Apache escort and the damage was minor. We were ordered to leave a besieged outpost and leave then with no CAS for more than an hour until our Apaches relief could get there. (More than an hour while the compound received effective small arms and rocket fire)

hawkdriver on March 17, 2010 at 11:03 PM

….makes me sick that our men and women are on the front lines with their hands tied behind their backs because of some failed community organizer and his liberal agenda.

Baxter Greene on March 28, 2010 at 11:40 PM

Hat tip to BG,

Hurry Election Day!

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 2:03 AM

That seems to be the way it works.

I actually have 2 dd214′s but apparently I must need 3.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 1:58 AM

Do any of them list combat time?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:04 AM

We have a bastard Patriotism, a sarcasm, a burlesque, but we have no such thing as a public conscience. Politically we are just a joke. The true patriotism, the only rational patriotism, is loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government ONLY when it deserves it. – Mark Twain

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:04 AM

- Mark Twain

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:02 AM

All doubts cast aside. We are quoting Twain, we are MB4. What did you do to get banned under that name?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM

Do any of them list combat time?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:04 AM

Are howitzers considered combat? Actually when I was there not that much was going on, which was fine with me. Not much to fire at. The war was ‘won’, until it turned out to be lost. Annual American troop KIA had gone down from over 10,000 a year to about 2 or 3,000. What next? Are we going to compare like Wiener did?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:08 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:04 AM

I have to go. Your comments are literally making me ill now. I can only take so much Twain quoting for the purpose of trying to convince fellow Americans that no war is worth fighting. I’m not sure that’s what Sam had in mind when he penned it.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM

The true patriotism, the only rational patriotism, is loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government ONLY when it deserves it.

Amen

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM

All doubts cast aside. We are quoting Twain, we are MB4. What did you do to get banned under that name?

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM

Must have given some offense to someone with the keys. Could have been most anything. Probably some trifle.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:08 AM

You were there. That’s all that mattered. Why you had to be so cryptic is beyond me. Why you need to feel as if nothing was accomplished there is even a bigger mystery. Thanks for your service. I wish you would have had a stronger public behind you.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:14 AM

I have to go. Your comments are literally making me ill now. I can only take so much Twain quoting for the purpose of trying to convince fellow Americans that no war is worth fighting. I’m not sure that’s what Sam had in mind when he penned it.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM

Well I doubt his intention, nor mine, was to make you physically ill and at this point it would probably be fruitless to try to get him to retract anything. You probably have never seen what was published after he died and was safe from any irate mob.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:17 AM

Amen

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM

Having the ability to conveniently separate your government from your nation when it suits you, is a talent.

-hawkdriver

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:17 AM

the purpose of trying to convince fellow Americans that no war is worth fighting.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:11 AM

A I said before, we are talking about AfCRAPistan and Islamic Great Society Nation Building, not WWII.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:19 AM

Having the ability to conveniently separate your government from your nation when it suits you, is a talent.

-hawkdriver

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:17 AM

No, more of a gift from our forefathers – a polling of the people every two years so they can decide whether they want a change.

The real “talent” is that some governments separate themselves from the people.

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 2:25 AM

Having the ability to conveniently separate your government from your nation when it suits you, is a talent.

-hawkdriver

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:17 AM

With Herr Obama at the helm, it would be a good one to develop. Rush seems to be able to. Maybe he read Twain?

You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one’s country, not to its institutions, or its office holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags–this is loyalty to unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it. – Mark Twain

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:27 AM

Why you need to feel as if nothing was accomplished there is even a bigger mystery. Thanks for your service. I wish you would have had a stronger public behind you.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 2:14 AM

I don’t. If the public had been “stronger” it would have gone on even longer and more guys would have been killed .. … and more Vietnamese too. Would that the public had ended up where they were much earlier, like maybe in 1964, as a lot of lives would have not been lost.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:32 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:32 AM

Do you still have use of the MB4 name at HotAir?

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 2:36 AM

I don’t. If the public had been “stronger” it would have gone on even longer and more guys would have been killed .. … and more Vietnamese too. Would that the public had ended up where they were much earlier, like maybe in 1964, as a lot of lives would have not been lost.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 2:32 AM

You putz. If the public had been stronger the damn civilians running the war wouldn’t have been so cowardly.

We would have lost a lot less if the war was prosecuted to win. FU.

Vince on June 23, 2011 at 2:43 AM

You putz. If the public had been stronger the damn civilians running the war wouldn’t have been so cowardly. We would have lost a lot less if the war was prosecuted to win. FU.

Vince on June 23, 2011 at 2:43 AM

BULLSEYE!

The Media Moguls using Walter Cronkite et al fed the sheep only as much as they wanted them to know! Sorta like the mass manure MB4 is spreading, using Mark Twain as his mouthpiece!

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 3:01 AM

Do you still have use of the MB4 name at HotAir?

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 2:36 AM

No. I’m down to less than a dozen names now. I once had about 2 dozen.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:04 AM

You putz. If the public had been stronger the damn civilians running the war wouldn’t have been so cowardly.

We would have lost a lot less if the war was prosecuted to win. FU.

Vince on June 23, 2011 at 2:43 AM

It was prosecuted to win. One year alone 14,000 American troops were killed “prosecuting to win”. Do you think they all died from Army Chou?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:07 AM

Congress was in part the prisoner of events. The leaders of the United States in the crucial years of the early and mid-1960s failed to come up with a strategy that would produce victory. Instead, they simply poured in more and more US troops and materiel into South Vietnam. They misled the public by insisting we were winning the war and thereby prepared the war for defeatism and demagoguery later on. The American people could not be expected to continue indefinitely to support a war in which they were told victory was around the corner, but which required greater and greater effort without any obvious signs of improvement. [Rather like Afcrapistan]

Norman Podhoretz, who believes that American intervention in the Vietnam War was “an attempt born of noble ideals and impulses,” has concluded that “the only way the United States could have avoided defeat in Vietnam [rather like Afcrapistan] was by staying out of the war altogether.” His judgment, in retrospect, appears to be as reasonable as any. The United States intervened in the Vietnam War on behalf of a weak and incompetent ally [rather like Afcrapistan] , and it pursued a conventional military victory against a wily, elusive, and extraordinarily determined opponent who shifted to ultimately decisive conventional military operations only after inevitable American political exhaustion undermined potentially decisive US military responses [rather like Afcrapistan]. Even had the United States attained a conclusive military decision, its cost would have exceeded any possible benefit. Vietnam was then, and remains today, a strategic backwater, and the US decision to fight there in the 1960s was driven by a doctrine of
containing communism that in the 1950s was witlessly militarized and indiscriminately extended to all of Asia. Bernard Brodie observed in the early 1970s that “it is now clear what we mean by calling the United States intervention in Vietnam a failure. We mean that at least as early as the beginning of 1968 even the most favorable outcome could not remotely be worth the price we would have paid for it. [raher like Afcrapistan]

The key to US defeat was a profound underestimation of enemy tenacity and fighting power, an underestimation born of a happy ignorance of Vietnamese history [rather like the ignorance that Petraeus has with regard to Islam], a failure to appreciate the fundamental civil dimensions of the war, and a preoccupation with the measurable indices of military power and attendant disdain for the ultimately decisive intangibles. In 1965, Maxwell Taylor confessed that “the ability of the Viet Cong continuously to rebuild their units and make good their losses is one of the mysteries of this guerrilla war. We still find no plausible explanation of the continued strength of the Viet Cong.” Four years later, Vo Nguyen Giap commented that the “United States has a strategy based on arithmetic. They question the computers, add and subtract, extract square roots, and then go into action. But arithmetical strategy doesn’t work here. If it did, they’d have already exterminated us.”

The United States could not have prevented the forcible reunification of Vietnam under communist auspices at a morally, materially, and strategically acceptable price.
- From the US Army War College Quarterly, Winter 1996-97

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:18 AM

Do you think they all died from Army Chou?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:07 AM

That’s Chow!

You lying commie SOB.

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 3:18 AM

Do you think they all died from Army Chou?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:07 AM

That’s Chow!

You lying commie SOB.

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 3:18 AM

No wonder most of your manure is cut n’ paste!

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 3:23 AM

The bottom line is that MB4 says he has some inner knowledge that trumps my entire understanding of all modern warfare.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. – Schopenhauer

Do you really think Patton would be OK with Afcrapistan? Or Eisenhower? Or Reagan?

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:32 AM

That’s Chow!

You lying commie SOB.

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 3:18 AM

You are getting very cranky … as well as tiresomely repetitious with your worn out “Let’s Roll”. It must be way past your nap time.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:35 AM

You are getting very cranky … as well as tiresomely repetitious with your worn out “Let’s Roll”. It must be way past your nap time.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:35 AM

Cranky
you ain’t seen nothing yet!
That’s how I get when I nail a snake,
posing as an American blowin Hot Air!
And NO it’s not naptime or choU time pal,
It’s Bat-a-Rat time! thats what we real
Americans do when we corner a ChiCom player!
Moreover, had you been American you’d know
that “Let’s Roll” means “Nuts” to our enemies!

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 3:55 AM

“On Watch”, you write like a very immature 12 year old. If you are 8 or 10 then that’s probably fine, but if you are much over 12 then you need your mom to make an appointment for you.

Sigmund on June 23, 2011 at 5:11 AM

No. I’m down to less than a dozen names now. I once had about 2 dozen.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:04 AM

Bro…that is not sane.

anuts on June 23, 2011 at 5:24 AM

“On Watch”, you write like a very immature 12 year old. If you are 8 or 10 then that’s probably fine, but if you are much over 12 then you need your mom to make an appointment for you.

Sigmund on June 23, 2011 at 5:11 AM

My what a clever lad you are ziggy!
That said, you’d best stay up on the porch
when there’s actual swordplay going on in the yard.

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 6:06 AM

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

Sorry Hawk but your chickenhawk stuff doesn’t fly irt TXUS and I. I never said anyone who holds that opinion should be drafted in this thread or any other. What I have been saying on several occasions is everyone should be liable for service through a draft so that we don’t keep sending the same people over and over (many who are friends of your I’m sure). It has nothing to do with the question of whether we should have engaged in any particular war but everything to do with not laying the entire f&% burden on the same people.
You are conveniently used the tactic with MB4 and when he finally told you the real deal it was dance time.
You also seem to think it is perfectly okay for TXUS to imply that every drafted VietNam vet was scum and hurt the military and that is why a draft should be constitutionally banned. You are a military scholar and know that her characterization was a very sweeping one.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:07 AM

So Failbama hands a victory to the taliban and AlQaeda. Way to go.

He screws up everything he touches. What a loser.

dogsoldier on June 23, 2011 at 6:14 AM

You also seem to think it is perfectly okay for TXUS to imply that every drafted VietNam vet was scum and hurt the military and that is why a draft should be constitutionally banned. You are a military scholar and know that her characterization was a very sweeping one.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:07 AM

I might add that there were far more draftees during Vietnam who won the Congressional Medal of Honor than all the volunteer career enlisted in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not even anywhere remotely close.

Dropping the Bomb on Vietnam Myths

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 6:36 AM

So is it Drawdown, Withdrawal, or just plain Buggin’out?

kingsjester on June 23, 2011 at 6:42 AM

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 6:36 AM

I’m sort of glad that not as many CMOH recipients have come out of the last couple of wars. It tends to indicate that we are using better technology and tactics that provide more protection for our military. So comparing the two simply in terms of numbers is probably not very relevant.

I checked your link and bookmarked it. Good information.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:44 AM

So is it Drawdown, Withdrawal, or just plain Buggin’out?

kingsjester on June 23, 2011 at 6:42 AM

There will be 100,000 troops still there in Nov 12. What do you think?

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:48 AM

This will turn out to be an unmitigated disaster. For the US, for Afghanistan, for South Asia, for Pakistan, for the Democrats, for Obama. The French followed in less than twelve hours with a complete pullout. NATO will turn tail and run. Watch for picture of US personnel and frantic Afghans frantically trying to board the last helicopter out of Kabul.
Look for the wave of loyal Afghan refugees. Prepare for the land of the Pashtuns to again become the incubator of world terror. Watch out friends quail and out enemies lick their chops.

Viator on June 23, 2011 at 6:52 AM

The bottom line is that MB4 says he has some inner knowledge that trumps my entire understanding of all modern warfare.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM

Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
Sun Tzu

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 6:56 AM

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:48 AM

And they’ll be gon, except for advisers, by 2014.
Political expediency. There’s an election coming.

kingsjester on June 23, 2011 at 6:58 AM

There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.
Sun Tzu

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 7:01 AM

kingsjester on June 23, 2011 at 6:58 AM

yepper

you summed it up nicely KJ

cmsinaz on June 23, 2011 at 7:14 AM

jaime on June 23, 2011 at 2:36 AM

No. I’m down to less than a dozen names now. I once had about 2 dozen.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 3:04 AM

And Jaime appears to be one of them. Talking to yourself is creepy, dude.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:20 AM

Wow, never thought I’d hear such a dishonorable surrender speech from an +American president.
This is near identical to Hirohito’s embarassing surrender speech where he claimed honor in surrendering to save civilization.

And the Chicago messiah did an evil thing -he used the politically incorrect phrase: “the War on terror”…

Don L on June 23, 2011 at 7:22 AM

You are a military scholar and know that her characterization was a very sweeping one.

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:07 AM

Sorry, for me to buy your argument, I’d have to think your call for a draft was sincere. I don’t. All things being equal, I absolutely believe your argument is designed to engage in calling Chickenhawk, without actually using the name. But you’re not original, it’s been done before. And I’ll say it again, it’s as ridiculous to declare someone must serve in order to support the war as it is for someone to demand someone have served in order to protest it. I only ever asked MB4 because he claimed to be an expert. He never actually said he served, but he answered a question in a manner that gives that impression. So, even though his use of several sockpuppets gives the impression he’s not very honest, you’re left with a requirement to give him the benefit of the doubt. To be sure, his using sockpuppets on a thread that he even argues with like On Watch, is a form of dishonestly in itself. He asserted he is a Viet Nam veteran. He asserted he was with artillery in country and fired artillery at the enemy. Again, not sure why it would be so tough to say something like, I served in Viet Nam from 66-67 in a field artillery unit, but I whatever. He has said, as much. For him to back away from the claim now or indicate that he wasn’t implying that, would just be a tangle of lies.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:38 AM

There will be 100,000 troops still there in Nov 12. What do you think?

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:48 AM

More importantly tho, how will our enemies react to our drawdown? Will a reduced combat capability, compromise our warfighters in theater? How many will unnecessarily pay the ultimate price for our half measures? What signals are we sending to the other bad actors in the region?

While 100,000 sounds like a big number, at least until you realize that barely a 1/3 are tip of the spear combatants. Moreover even that cadre is sectioned, has to sleep, and rotate out for R&R. Not to worry though, Obozo & Clowns have fingered it out. They’ll just heave s’more ordinance at Col. Kadaffy and claim there protecting the women and children.

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 7:38 AM

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 6:36 AM

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:44 AM

Hey, you military history buffs. It’s corrected referred to as The Medal of Honor. Using Congressional in the title or calling it the CMOH is quite incorrect.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:42 AM

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 6:44 AM

MB4 loves his links.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:46 AM

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 6:56 AM

Words without honestly fall on deaf ears.

-hawkdriver

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:47 AM

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:47 AM

well said

cmsinaz on June 23, 2011 at 7:52 AM

And Jaime appears to be one of them. Talking to yourself is creepy, dude.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:20 AM

You just slandered an innocent person.

I only ever asked MB4 because he claimed to be an expert. He never actually said he served, but he answered a question in a manner that gives that impression. So, even though his use of several sockpuppets gives the impression he’s not very honest, you’re left with a requirement to give him the benefit of the doubt. To be sure, his using sockpuppets on a thread that he even argues with like On Watch, is a form of dishonestly in itself. He asserted he is a Viet Nam veteran. He asserted he was with artillery in country and fired artillery at the enemy. Again, not sure why it would be so tough to say something like, I served in Viet Nam from 66-67 in a field artillery unit, but I whatever. He has said, as much. For him to back away from the claim now or indicate that he wasn’t implying that, would just be a tangle of lies.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:38 AM

You have made quite a number of false statement here. Tou need to review the “transcripts”.

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 7:54 AM

Sorry, what I heard was blah, blah, blah, if you don’t think in terms of fiscal conservatism you’re not a conservative, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Whatever.

How juvenile. My response was respectful. Anyway, are you suggesting that you aren’t fiscally conservative? Fiscal conservatism has to take a back seat? Saving the Republic from financial malpractice should be one of the top goals of any conservative that loves this country.

Hot Air has turned into a sounding board for the cowardly middle. They don’t have a gut to fight for even unborn babies in their own country, how could you expect them to stand against those who would try to kill us abroad.

What? Hot Air is no pro-abortion? And somehow we don’t want to stand against those who would try to kill us abroad? What proof do you have of this?

I’ll tell you what though. My friends and I have given blood and we’ve given each other in this war. People I know have given their lives for you.

I don’t know if I can agree with that statement. The mission as is, is not so much about protecting America as bringing some sort of democracy/stability to a country that has no value for human life.

Next time I hear someone rationalize that the very purpose, the very existence of Conservatism is merely to promote fiscal responsibility I will “literally” blow a gasket.

hawkdriver on June 22, 2011 at 10:44 PM

Conservatism is much more than that; however, there’s no point in being conservative if America collapses into some Socialist heap. How could you even sneer at us? We’re simply trying to save the country we love?

MeatHeadinCA on June 23, 2011 at 8:00 AM

HalJordan on June 23, 2011 at 7:54 AM

Nothing I said is false. I only pointed out what you said. But point to individual lies and I’ll address them one by one.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 8:01 AM

Off to work MB4. Point em out and I’ll address them one by one later.

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 8:04 AM

Hinmahtooyahlatkek on June 23, 2011 at 8:03 AM

It is given by the president in the name of the Congress. It is called, “The Medal of Honor.”

hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 8:13 AM

…To be sure, his using sockpuppets on a thread that he even argues with like On Watch, is a form of dishonestly in itself…. hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:38 AM

Hawk, if you’re implying I’m an MB4(aka Hal Jordan) sockpuppet, not only are you way off target, but you’re giving him too much credit, and apparently falling into his “dozens of nicknames” trap. Don’t let his ‘bugles and whistles’ disorient you. I have him pegged as a non-American anti-American probably a gook! No US trooper I’ve ever known spells CHOW chou! ‘Course maybe he stood too close to that “Howitzer” he was bragging about!

“Let’s Roll”

On Watch on June 23, 2011 at 8:13 AM

I’d have to think your call for a draft was sincere
hawkdriver on June 23, 2011 at 7:38 AM

Then we may as well not debate it. I am sincere. You don’t accept that. Shockah.

As for your jab about military History buffs and the CMOH you are quibbling. Congress passed a bill authorizing it – hence the Congressional tag.
http://www.cmohs.org/medal-history.php

Bradky on June 23, 2011 at 8:16 AM

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