CNN debate’s biggest loser: CNN

posted at 9:25 am on June 14, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

Actually, the headline is a little misleading.  The biggest losers at last night’s CNN debate were the people who tuned in for political enlightenment, and ended up watching a two-hour game show.  CNN’s moderator, John King, had me thinking of Rudyard Kipling and “good old grinnin’, gruntin’ Gunga Din” — but without the ironic redemption.  Any political insight got lost in King’s continuous “uh uh uh uh uh” soundtrack that kicked in within seconds of a Republican attempting to speak.  Not that there was much insight to be had in a format that insisted on asking “This or That?” questions, such as “Thin crust or deep dish?”

As I wrote in my column for The Week moments after the debate concluded, it’s not that we went into the debate with high expectations anyway, but CNN managed to fail to meet even the low bar set previously by the media for presidential debates:

Every four years, the American media decide that the best way to showcase the potential leadership of the U.S. and the free world is to crowd as many candidates as possible on a stage and play College Bowl, only with shorter time for answers. Instead of asking a question that only requires a brief, specific answer, contestants – excuse me, candidates – are tormented with open-ended questions on broad issues:

Q: In thirty seconds, please explain how you will approach entitlement reform.

A: Er … carefully?

Monday’s CNN debate managed to combine the usual inanity with a healthy dose of incompetent innovation. CNN selected John King as the moderator and the timekeeper, and needless to say, that didn’t exactly work out well. Instead of signaling with a light that time had expired, King started grunting a few seconds after candidates began their answers… or when King felt the answers were non-responsive… or whenever King felt like grunting. This led to several exchanges when the contestants – darn it, candidates – asked King if they could please finish speaking before he jumped to the next question.

That’s not to say that we didn’t learn some important answers from our potential candidates during the evening. Thanks to a brilliant new addition to the debate format, CNN and King managed to teach us that Rick Santorum prefers Jay Leno over Conan O’Brien, Tim Pawlenty prefers Coke to Pepsi, Ron Paul prefers BlackBerries to iPhones, and Michele Bachmann prefers Ludwig von Mises to John Maynard Keynes. Of course, I’m only joking on the last point. Why would a media debate moderator ask about economic policy? King actually asked Bachmann in her difficult “This or That” question to choose between Elvis Presley or Johnny Cash, and Rep. Bachmann immediately disqualified herself from Round Two by picking both. No bonus prizes for Bachmann this time!

What would one guess as the topics voters most want to hear covered in presidential debates this year?  Jobs, energy policy, economics, and foreign policy. There were a grand total of two questions on jobs, despite the dozens of attempts by the candidates to talk about job creation.  The first energy policy question came three questions before the end of the two-hour debate, and the only foreign-policy question came right before that, both after the seventh and final “This or That” question.

In fact, here are the question topics in order:

  1. Plans for job creation
  2. Tim Pawlenty’s plan for sustained 5% growth
  3. Raising taxes on the wealthy
  4. Repealing Dodd-Frank Wall Street regulatory expansion
  5. Repealing ObamaCare
  6. Pawlenty’s ObamneyCare comment (with 4 followups)
  7. Individual mandate in health insurance coverage
  8. Convincing moderates and independents
  9. “Aren’t you concerned about the influence of the Tea Party?”
  10. “CNN is hosting a Tea Party debate in September!”
  11. How to bring manufacturing jobs back from overseas
  12. Right to work legislation – is that demonizing union members?
  13. Government assistance to private enterprises
  14. Space program
  15. Housing meltdown
  16. Food safety
  17. FEMA
  18. Medicare
  19. Social Security reform
  20. Debt ceiling
  21. Separation of church and state
  22. Muslims in government
  23. Same-sex marriage
  24. DADT
  25. Abortion
  26. Immigration
  27. Eminent domain (Kelo)
  28. Ethanol subsidies – which only one candidate got to answer (Santorum)
  29. Pulling out of Afghanistan after OBL’s death
  30. Libya
  31. Should we start closing overseas military bases?
  32. Who among this group would you consider as a running mate?
  33. What have you learned in the last two hours?

On that point, we didn’t learn anything about energy policy.  We learned nothing about the deficit, except what the candidates could shoehorn into answers to inane questions.  We learned very little about economic or foreign policy.    We covered a lot of nonsense between the first question on jobs and the last question on running mates, but hardly anything that touched on actual voter priorities.  We also learned that CNN is willing to pander to both the Tea Party and Tea Party-phobes, practically in the same breath, only separated by guttural grunts from the network’s learned moderator.

The entire event was an embarrassment.

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

Worst debate ever. The questions were way too broad for 30 second answers and the grunting was intolerable. Somebody should have asked him if he needed a cough drop or something.

Southernblogger on June 14, 2011 at 10:13 AM

King’s continuous “uh uh uh uh uh”. Does he DJ on weekends? Is it any wonder SP skipped this farce.

Kissmygrits on June 14, 2011 at 10:14 AM

My kingdom for this candidate:

“Elvis or Johnny Cash?”

FRANK.

“Coke or Pepsi?”

SCOTCH.

greggriffith on June 14, 2011 at 10:15 AM

Roy Rogers on June 14, 2011 at 9:56 AM

I don’t know, what do you use on the clown course?

Speakup on June 14, 2011 at 10:16 AM

My kingdom for this candidate:

“Elvis or Johnny Cash?”

FRANK.

“Coke or Pepsi?”

SCOTCH.

greggriffith on June 14, 2011 at 10:15 AM

Snort!
“You DO know this is a debate for presidential candidates,Mr. King?” That would have worked too.

katy the mean old lady on June 14, 2011 at 10:23 AM

Stay tuned as political pundits offer “powerful insight” to the CNN debate all day today, and yes, including Fox.

Mr_Magoo on June 14, 2011 at 10:24 AM

I’m glad I didn’t waste my time watching.

disa on June 14, 2011 at 10:24 AM

The debate only allowed 30 second answers which was clearly too short. But the GOP candidates avoided bashing eachother and seemed unified in defeating Obama and thats a good thing

Dennis D on June 14, 2011 at 10:34 AM

Glad I watched the Stanley Cup playoffs last night.

crazy_legs on June 14, 2011 at 10:02 AM

Heh. After the first 30 minutes of John King’s grunting, I went to visit with my neighbors dogs and played “this or that.”

Frisbee or stick?

GrannyDee on June 14, 2011 at 10:37 AM

Sounds like I didn’t miss shit.

Coronagold on June 14, 2011 at 10:37 AM

I’m not sure why anyone watches these: the quiz-show format has been a major epic-fail for years, now.

irishspy on June 14, 2011 at 10:43 AM

The entire event was an embarrassment.

made my day

gh on June 14, 2011 at 10:59 AM

What is CNN’s viewership now? It’s gone from the only cable news channel to less than half of Fox News’ ratings — and still sinking like a rock.

Why on earth should we let these (with all due respect) pathetic losers set the terms of the debate? THEY are the ones who are desperate for viewers. Any Republican politician who sucks up to them is pretty much the definition of “media whore.”

logis on June 14, 2011 at 11:03 AM

These debates are always awful. You can’t have a coherent debate among 7 people in 2 hours. It just doesn’t work.

Any time more than 3 people are involved it is useless.

angryed on June 14, 2011 at 11:03 AM

If a reporter asked me “Coke or Pepsi”, I would ask him if he was seriously asking such an inane question.

Then I might go on to warn him what is at stake in the world and tell him to limit his question to serious matters.

esnap on June 14, 2011 at 11:09 AM

Debate?
These were not debates. This was a Q & A sideshow designed to diminish the entire opposition enterprise.

They were times when I wanted to reach through my monitor and slap John King in the back of the head. I find it hard to believe that the producers didn’t shout “STFU” in his headset, or at least have a talk with him during breaks.

That was the worst moderation I think I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen some bad ones.

Saltysam on June 14, 2011 at 11:11 AM

Thank goodness I didn’t watch.

That looks like an Onion parody!

PattyJ on June 14, 2011 at 11:21 AM

But … talking about the big issues might have made Obama look bad …

CNN is far too professional* to let that happen

*World’s Oldest Profession?

tom on June 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM

I would have responded:

“Fox News, or CNN?”

papa_giorgio on June 14, 2011 at 11:32 AM

If you can’t handle questions from CNN, you have no business claiming you can handle the presidency.

Hollowpoint on June 13, 2011 at 4:26 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 14, 2011 at 9:35 AM

Priceless.

Now that’s recycling I can support.

tom on June 14, 2011 at 11:37 AM

At least they didn’t have Perez Hilton moderating-so it could have been worse.

Dr. ZhivBlago on June 14, 2011 at 11:38 AM

I also believe it was a cr@ppy and weird debate, but I actually expected it to be much worse ! Really, I did !

pambi on June 14, 2011 at 11:40 AM

Spot on Mr. Morrissey. Well written.

Geochelone on June 14, 2011 at 11:50 AM

JetBoy on June 14, 2011 at 9:36 AM

Very Funny JB.

Geochelone on June 14, 2011 at 11:57 AM

Saltysam on June 14, 2011 at 11:11 AM

Sam, I don’t know why the Republican Party and Conservatives in general seem so willing to allow the Democrats to load the deck with these debates. Sure during the general, all formats. But in their own primary, why do they agree to bad formats and moderators who are severely biased against them?

hawkdriver on June 14, 2011 at 12:08 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 14, 2011 at 9:35 AM

Priceless.

Now that’s recycling I can support.

tom on June 14, 2011 at 11:37 AM

Right up there with the best of recycled crr6 quotes.

Del Dolemonte on June 14, 2011 at 12:09 PM

This or that: Le Corbusier or Mies van der Roh?

carbon_footprint on June 14, 2011 at 12:21 PM

I was expecting Ron Paul to answer the Iphone/Blackberry question with something along the lines of “This is absurd. Let’s talk about things that really matter, like how broke the nation is.”

CoffeeMan on June 14, 2011 at 12:21 PM

Are these the questions I was brought here to answer, phone bills and footlockers? Tell me you have something more.

darwin-t on June 14, 2011 at 10:06 AM

..marvelous! Well played, Darwin! Katy, the mean old lady would have loved that retort.

The War Planner on June 14, 2011 at 12:31 PM

..why do they agree to bad formats and moderators who are severely biased against them and have obvious gastric problems?

hawkdriver on June 14, 2011 at 12:08 PM

..FIFY, hawk.

The War Planner on June 14, 2011 at 12:33 PM

The “this or that” question is a classical and fallacious “straw man” technique, and it has absolutely no place as a legitimate debate topic where the object is to obtain actual information.

But why was CNN the venue in the first place??

landlines on June 14, 2011 at 12:41 PM

thinking about this more. I think the biggest loser was the RNC. why does the RNC not plan their own debates with their own moderators and then offer cable news networks the TV rights? and if none bite place it on youtube or upstream it. In this day and age there is no reason to allow the liberals to be gatekeepers for the GOP party. screw them. this wasn’t CNN’s fault like any animal they are just following who they are. the fox and the scorpion come to mind here. So I don’t blame CNN I blame the RNC and all candidates that agreed to this debate. I hope they learned their lesson before they double down on stupid and agree to the NBC/politco debate.

unseen on June 14, 2011 at 12:51 PM

A Republican debate hosted by CNN is like a NAACP debate hosted by the KKK.

fogw on June 14, 2011 at 1:03 PM

Totally agree, big loser: CNN, mainly for the This/That nonsense.

I’m not sure what the alternative is to the rapid-fire 1 minute answers. Huntsman gets in next week. They could/should include Gary Johnson in the next debate. That is NINE people on stage. How can you include all of them and have any kind of thoughtful debate?

I don’t think you can.

BocaJuniors on June 14, 2011 at 1:06 PM

I also have to ask, why CNN? Haven’t they done enough damage to our country by their support of progressivism and the democratic party? Why give them another shot at us?

slickwillie2001 on June 14, 2011 at 1:08 PM

As ridiculous as the questions were, they could have provided interesting insight into the candidates’ personality if more interesting topics had been used.

My suggestion: Clytemnestra or Antigone?

Kim Priestap on June 14, 2011 at 1:09 PM

Although he fits in well with CNN, King is and always has been a second rate dufus.

rplat on June 14, 2011 at 1:11 PM

The well-informed want to know… boxers or briefs? I don’t care if you prefer commando! No equivocating unless you want to demonstrate how unfit you are for America’s top job!

CliffHanger on June 14, 2011 at 1:13 PM

A Republican debate hosted by CNN is like a NAACP debate hosted by the KKK.

fogw on June 14, 2011 at 1:03 PM

Hyperbole aside, yeah. Why do these liberal political commentators have to be the hosts? Why not have two or three conservatives moderate the debate?

BocaJuniors on June 14, 2011 at 1:17 PM

I agree that this so-called ‘debate’ format is ridiculous. Last night I posted,

Please, no more phony pre-programmed ‘debates’.

We need to hear what the candidates think, and we need to hear them discuss the issues among themselves. Stop with the stupid Internet and audience questions; stop changing the topic before everyone has had a chance to speak on an issue; stop throwing in idiotic questions like “Coke or Pepsi?”

John King clearly thought the was running a quiz show.

/Mr Lynn

MrLynn on June 14, 2011 at 1:18 PM

I need to know… arugula or iceberg?

CliffHanger on June 14, 2011 at 1:19 PM

“Mizz Palin, circumcised or uncircumcised?”

fossten on June 14, 2011 at 1:31 PM

If you can’t handle questions from CNN, you have no business claiming you can handle the presidency.

Hollowpoint on June 13, 2011 at 4:26 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 14, 2011 at 9:35 AM

Yes and no. I understand the basic point, but that doesn’t mean that the republican party should allow liberal outfits to run the primary debates – where the liberal moderator is going to do everthing he/she can to keep the issues away from what hurts Obama and focused on what could potentially harm the GOP candidates, and will not allow any format that actually makes the GOP candidates look good.

I’m not saying that GOP presidential hopefuls should ignore/avoid CNN. But the GOP shouldn’t be letting CNN, MSNBS, etc. decide what the debate format is going to be and moderate such debates.

Pick some decent conservative journalists who will ask tough / thoughful questions about real issues and allow the candidates to respond. don’t use some jerk who as a liberal agenda they are trying to pursue through their moderation of the debate.

there’s a big difference between not being able to take a questions from CNN and allowing CNN to run the show.

Monkeytoe on June 14, 2011 at 1:38 PM

I would love to see the candidates do the “Bloggingheads” format. Someone at Big Government should set that up (Breitbart, the grassroots are calling on Line 1!).

alwaysfiredup on June 14, 2011 at 1:40 PM

Monkeytoe on June 14, 2011 at 1:38 PM

Yep. Let CNN cover it from the sidelines with a couple of pool questions, just like everyone else.

alwaysfiredup on June 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM

As a follow up to my last comment -

Why on earth does a journalist have to be a debate moderator? Is it because we believe journalists are so informed and thoughful? Please.

If we want good thoughtful debates that really showcase conservative ideas and the differences between the candidates, why not have think tank people run the debate, or conservative pundits who really know their stuff? Why not have Mark Steyn, Rich Lowry, and someone from The Heritage Foundation moderate?

We’d get far better questions demanding far better responses. Isn’t that what we want?

Monkeytoe on June 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM

Why not have Mark Steyn, Rich Lowry, and someone from The Heritage Foundation moderate?

We’d get far better questions demanding far better responses. Isn’t that what we want?

Monkeytoe on June 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM

Ooh, Thomas Sowell. Be still my heart!

alwaysfiredup on June 14, 2011 at 1:43 PM

The entire event was an embarrassment.

And predictably so.

Which is precisely why the decision by certain prospective candidates to forgo it showed keen judgment.

steebo77 on June 14, 2011 at 9:54 AM

And there’s still people who comment here that JUST DON’T GET IT. The media hates you. They think you are racist morons and this is how they treat a possible future POTUS.

Anyone who thinks the LSM is going to be fair or isn’t something a future POTUS needs to work around deserves to get curb stomped out back.

I wonder about the sanity of a candidate that doesn’t treat CNN or the alphabet stations with the derision and contempt that they deserve. Good on the One Who Must Not Be Named for passing on this gong show.

kim roy on June 14, 2011 at 1:46 PM

Monkeytoe on June 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM

As an answer to my own question, the candidates probably don’t want that. They want a meaningless format so there is much less chance of screwing up.

A front-runner like Romney wants the most candidates possible on teh stage, so that nobody else gains traction and a format that doesn’t really give him a chance to screw up too badly.

the minor players – Ron Paul – don’t care about format b/c they are just in it for the spotlight and to throw bombs.

the second tier, like Pawlenty, would probably want a smaller # of candidates and more meaningful questions to try and gain traction, but need the Front-runner / first-tier candidates like Romney on the stage to try and show he is better than Romney, so Palwenty has to agree to whatever Romney wants.

So, ultimately we will never get a decent debate. The front-runner never wants it and the 2nd tiers have to do what the front runner wants.

The GOP should put debate formats in its by-laws and make it a requirement of the nomination that candidates participate in so many debates of that format sanctioned by the GOP (kind of like boxing organiations require certain bouts or the champ loses a belt). The GOP could require 1 debate per month in a set format for so many months of primary season, and have a cut-off of nobody polling less than 5% that month can participate.

the candidates would be free to do other debates in other formats if they wished. But they would have to do the GOP sanctioned debates. And the GOP would pick the location, the date, the moderator, etc.

Monkeytoe on June 14, 2011 at 1:52 PM

I watched one, just one question. It was given to Santorum. The question was…..Leno, or Conan.

I was appalled by that. Disgusted. This wasn’t a debate…this was CNN’s attempt to display any Repulican contender as unhip, uncool, and as a baffoon. Nothing more.

To bad in their attempts, they didn’t take 5 minutes to stop and think…how will this make CNN look? Because I think most Americans that watched, are a lot wiser as to who CNN truly supports, and it’s not freedom and the people.

capejasmine on June 14, 2011 at 1:57 PM

This was no worse than the CNN debate with the Democrats with all those bogus questions from the plants. If the Republicans are smart, they’ll only debate on adult networks and CNN isn’t one. Their best bet is to do a series of debates on Fox News where they will be challenged with good questions, given time to answer, and not have to think about “gotcha” .

bflat879 on June 14, 2011 at 2:13 PM

John King asked which candidate picked a better VP the last time around. Clearly, CNN was seeking a Palin slam from the GOPers on stage.

If any of them answered Obama, they’re forever off my list for even dog warden.

Sharr on June 14, 2011 at 2:49 PM

CNN’s John King: Ignorant or just plain stupid???

landlines on June 14, 2011 at 2:49 PM

And no, the Right does not, nor should it kowtow to the likes of CNN.

find a debate format which does not put the enemy in charge… anyone on the Right who thinks playing by these rules helps them or their cause, is insane.

Sharr on June 14, 2011 at 2:52 PM

I was waiting for King to ask Cain -”Popeyes or KFC?”

slickwillie2001 on June 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM

I cannot believe how any politician with a sense of self-respect or personal dignity or notion of the dignity of public discourse could have participated in that debate. As a result, I’ve lost respect for all who did. I wouldn’t vote for any of them – under any circumstances.

Did it not occur to any of them to ask whose interest this format was serving? Or to ask – individually or collectively — how they could do better, how they could insist on something better? Did they not believe they had any power or influence in the process? Were they all so awed about being on CNN that they blindly consented to the insult? They couldn’t they ask themselves, “why can’t we sit down and come up with something better on our own, and tell the sponsors ‘this is the way we want it or we don’t participate’”? Do they think of themselves as potted plants?
It’s the same old thing. The republicans obediently line up and submit themselves to the MSM interrogation.

I can’t accept the same old thing anymore. This time it has to be different. I’m going with different. I’m going with the one woman, the one person and politician, who will not deliver the same old thing, who has shown that she will give the media the back of her hand and will not play by their rules. I’m going with the one person who has demonstrated a sense of command over her own narrative and defied the MSM’s overbearing and poisonous bad faith.

rrpjr on June 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM

Sad thing is that John King is an otherwise capable political commentator. Why he would agree to be pimped out like this by CNN is beyond me, but I guess when you’ve got a contract you do what you’re told. Sad.

Was looking forward to a good debate on the candidates’ tax policies, particularly from Pawlenty, but no-o-o-o-o-o… eminent domain is oh, so much more important!

redfoxbluestate on June 14, 2011 at 3:20 PM

ChickaBOOMer| CNN: Dumb or Dumber?
http://chickaboomer.blogspot.com/2011/06/cnn-dumb-or-dumber.html

StewartIII on June 14, 2011 at 3:31 PM

I can’t accept the same old thing anymore. This time it has to be different. I’m going with different. I’m going with the one woman, the one person and politician, who will not deliver the same old thing, who has shown that she will give the media the back of her hand and will not play by their rules. I’m going with the one person who has demonstrated a sense of command over her own narrative and defied the MSM’s overbearing and poisonous bad faith.

rrpjr on June 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM

Exactly right. People complained that Caribou Barbi wasn’t a serious candidate comparing her Alaskan program to a reality show, and now we get this insult.

I doubt if Sarah would have used this kind of language–she would be more diplomatic while slicing the Mod open-but the proper response to those kind of questions is, “What the hell kind of question is that? Our country is going down the tubes and you want to know from me what soda I prefer? You’re a real peckerhead.”

davidk on June 14, 2011 at 4:40 PM

“Mizz Palin, seal clubbing or wolf sniping?”

fossten on June 14, 2011 at 4:50 PM

greggriffith on June 14, 2011 at 10:15 AM

LOL, I was thinking the same thing real-time, except my answers were “Led Zeppelin” and “margaritas”.

Maybe I should run. ;)

Midas on June 14, 2011 at 5:00 PM

I was waiting for King to ask Cain -”Popeyes or KFC?”

slickwillie2001 on June 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM

Heh. Pork rinds, or chitlins?

Watermelon, or , uh, watermelon?

Ripple, or Colt 45?

davidk on June 14, 2011 at 5:04 PM

Bob Dole, boxers or briefs?

“Depends.”

davidk on June 14, 2011 at 5:09 PM

Sad thing is that John King is an otherwise capable political commentator. Why he would agree to be pimped out like this by CNN is beyond me, but I guess when you’ve got a contract you do what you’re told. Sad.

redfoxbluestate on June 14, 2011 at 3:20 PM

His wifey also works there. Dana Bash.

BTW King’s background is with al-Associated Press, recently famous for inventing a “poll” that sampled twice as many Democrats as Republicans in order to get their desired outcome.

Del Dolemonte on June 14, 2011 at 6:07 PM

Why are the Republican candidates going on CNN anyway? Liberals won’t go on Fox so why should Republicans go on the other news outlets. Sarah Palin has the right idea, go around the media. But that will never happen with sad, wussy Republican candidates.

kmarie on June 14, 2011 at 6:24 PM

I thought Ed’s commentary and the article sighted were kidding about the questions….I was wrong. What a complete waste of time.

tommer74 on June 14, 2011 at 6:36 PM

Here’s what they get for going on CNN. From twitter:

JohnKingCNNR hawks turning into doves? Looked like GOPers & @BarackObama traded places at the #cnndebate. @EWErickson + Susan Molinari weigh in @7pE 21 minutes ago via web Retweeted by EWErickson and 2 others

Now wasn’t that helpful?

kim roy on June 14, 2011 at 7:00 PM

I remember Democrats boycotting the Fox network debates.

How about it Bachmann, Gingrich, Pawlenty , Romney, Santorum, Paul?

CNN and MSNBC have proven over and over again that they hold the country in contempt.

Sometimes being a leader is knowing when to say no.

papertiger on June 14, 2011 at 7:11 PM

You have to hand it to CNN. They made sure to pigeonhole questions at candidates for whom those questions were their weak points, and when others spoke up who could offer a stronger (read administration-critiquing) opinion, it was time to MoveOn.

Sometimes being a leader is knowing when to say no.

papertiger on June 14, 2011 at 7:11 PM

And sometimes being a leader is knowing when it is not yet time to jump into the ring. Fortunately, there is such a leader.

Freelancer on June 14, 2011 at 8:26 PM

I wonder if the left is angry that King didn’t have any gottcha questions to embarrass them.

petunia on June 14, 2011 at 11:44 PM

Comment pages: 1 2