Electric cars not so green after all?

posted at 2:50 pm on June 13, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a column for The Week in which I questioned the notion of electric cars being a green option.  My arguments got swift rebuttals from backers of electric cars, but a new study produced in partnership between the British government and the car industry shows just how correct I was.  Not only do electric vehicles produce just as much carbon in their overall cycle as internal-combustion engines, the need to replace the batteries actually makes the less green than current technology (via Jeff Dunetz):

ELECTRIC cars could produce higher emissions over their lifetimes than petrol equivalents because of the energy consumed in making their batteries, a study has found.

An electric car owner would have to drive at least 129,000km before producing a net saving in CO2. Many electric cars will not travel that far in their lifetime because they typically have a range of less than 145km on a single charge and are unsuitable for long trips. Even those driven 160,000km would save only about a tonne of CO2 over their lifetimes. …

The study was commissioned by the Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership, which is jointly funded by the British government and the car industry. It found that a mid-size electric car would produce 23.1 tonnes of CO2 over its lifetime, compared with 24 tonnes for a similar petrol car. Emissions from manufacturing electric cars are at least 50 per cent higher because batteries are made from materials such as lithium, copper and refined silicon, which require much energy to be processed.

Many electric cars are expected to need a replacement battery after a few years. Once the emissions from producing the second battery are added in, the total CO2 from producing an electric car rises to 12.6 tonnes, compared with 5.6 tonnes for a petrol car. Disposal also produces double the emissions because of the energy consumed in recovering and recycling metals in the battery. The study also took into account carbon emitted to generate the grid electricity consumed.

Battery manufacturing is an energy-intensive process, as is recycling and reclamation.  Normal cars use batteries, of course, but only one per car rather than a bank of batteries.  Moving to all-electric vehicles would mean an explosion of manufacturing, recycling, and disposal, none of which the US or the UK are prepared to handle.

As I also noted two weeks ago, that’s not the only “green” concern in the battery cycle:

Where do we plan to put all of the dead batteries that will necessarily have to be discarded? Some (but not all) components can be recycled, and those elements which must be disposed are not terribly eco-friendly, depending on the kind of batteries made. Lithium ion seems to be the direction most car manufacturers are heading, which poses fewer disposal risks to the environment — but still poses risks in mining and manufacturing, especially to groundwater.

Lithium also poses another blow to the argument for the electric car — its domestic availability. Eighty-five percent of the known reserves are inBolivia, Chile, and China, and lithium is not the only element needed for large-scale production of car battery systems. Large flake graphite is also needed, and China controls 80 percent of the market, along with other “rare earth” elements. Far from ending our dependence on foreign resources, we will merely exchange our dependence from the Middle East to China, which is not exactly an encouraging thought for our future.

Even if we did have these elements in abundance, we would need to mine and drill for them. Those are precisely the activities that environmentalists and short-sighted government policies have been blocking for decades in coal, oil, shale, and natural gas. Besides, “peak lithium” may arrive long before “peak oil,” as the Argonne National Laboratory estimates that we only have enough lithium available to manufacture car batteries through 2050 — less than 40 years from now. A lithium “crunch” could occur by 2017 — which also hardly lends confidence to the reliability of the electric car as a long-term solution.

We would have to do extensive mining somewhere to get the materials necessary to manufacture the batteries, most likely overseas, which makes us more dependent on foreign energy, not less so.  Instead of putting us even further at the mercy of foreign countries for our transportation and energy needs, why not just convert to natural gas?  The technology for natural-gas vehicles has been around for decades, and it burns cleanly while giving drivers a normal range for their cars.  Natural gas is an abundant resource in the US, which would require less work to extract than the metals needed for a massive expansion of battery manufacturing, and would make the US much more self-reliant for energy.  It also requires much less effort to transform into consumer-ready energy than either lithium (which still requires electrical charging and recharging) or gasoline, which requires heavy refining, with its own environmental issues.

If we want the most “green” solution for mass-produced energy in personal transportation, the answer is natural gas, not electric vehicles.  That wouldn’t need overwhelming federal subsidies for decades to give the illusion of competitiveness, either.

Blowback

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Comment pages: 1 2

Not only do electric vehicles produce just as much carbon in their overall cycle as internal-combustion engines, the need to replace the batteries actually makes the less green than current technology

b..b.bbut…the consensus?

ted c on June 13, 2011 at 2:53 PM

Central Planning solves everything. /s

Oil Can on June 13, 2011 at 2:54 PM

Hybrid Car Crash Creates Hazmat Problem

This would be a real problem if the “environmentalists” weren’t such moonbat Obama supporters

Roy Rogers on June 13, 2011 at 2:55 PM

wtf, batteries? i thought these things ran on unicorn farts?

Midas on June 13, 2011 at 2:57 PM

We should just go to Flintstone cars. They got around just fine, except when Dino was on the hood.

Monkeytoe on June 13, 2011 at 2:57 PM

[Jedi handwave]These are not the green solutions you are looking for.[/Jedi handwave]

jnelchef on June 13, 2011 at 2:57 PM

But Al Gore said…

Wade on June 13, 2011 at 2:58 PM

Typo, Ed!

makes the them less green

KeepOhioRed on June 13, 2011 at 2:59 PM

Maybe they’re hoping that Dr. Manhattan will show up to mass-produce lithium ion out of thin air.

teke184 on June 13, 2011 at 3:00 PM

The Cash for Clunkers and Green Pimp had egg on his face.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2011 at 3:01 PM

Is Obama pushing the green-job hoax out of stupitity or malice, or both?

GaltBlvnAtty on June 13, 2011 at 3:03 PM

I posted this in the earlier “green” thread. It’s not just lithium that is a problem:

…China produces around 95% of the world market’s rare earth elements.

Dysprosium – Hybrid Car Motors, hard drives, Nuclear Reactor control rods.

Neodymium – Hybrid Car Motors, Wind Turbine magnets

Lanthanum – Nickel-Metal-Hydride Batteries NiMH. Guess what batteries hybrid cars use?

Those are just three of the seventeen REEs. Solar cells, oil refineries, etc. are also dependent on REEs. China as also begun artificially driving up the prices on rare earth elements by “stockpiling”…

darclon on June 13, 2011 at 12:13 PM

darclon on June 13, 2011 at 3:04 PM

Just how do the Marxist Poli Sci types propose powering these things up, with upwards of 20% of our entire power grid going offline, thanks to Obamtard’s new EPA regulations?

MNHawk on June 13, 2011 at 3:05 PM

Not to rain on your parade Ed but this is not really new news! just like Ethanol is more energy intensive than it is worth.

bluemarlin on June 13, 2011 at 3:05 PM

If we want the most “green” solution for mass-produced energy in personal transportation, the answer is natural gas, not electric vehicles.

But we can’t have THAT now…

… can we?

Seven Percent Solution on June 13, 2011 at 3:08 PM

Do facts matter or is it enough to just to really believe they are good and that will make it so? It worked with Tinkerbell. Come on, kids…clap your hands!!

miConsevative on June 13, 2011 at 3:09 PM

$40,000 is the price of a Chevy Volt. That’s a small mortgage. Then you have to charge the thing and Obama (EPA) has closed coal powered electrical plants, electricity rates will necessarily skyrocket.

What are you paying in kilowatt hours?

Kini on June 13, 2011 at 3:09 PM

Go natural gas! Damn, it is not rocket science and we have loads and loads of the stuff.

Liberal thinking always leads to unintended consequences. Always.
Paper bags were poo pooed in favor of plastic. Now they hate plastic, use the personal tote bag. The tote bag is filled with all kinds of harmful bacteria. It never ends.

Great job, Ed. Thinkers are always exonerated in the end.

carbon_footprint on June 13, 2011 at 3:09 PM

batteries were always a bad idea for something as large as a car. Fuel cells are a better electric alternative.

Jens on June 13, 2011 at 3:09 PM

I call it the Sarah Palin rule.

The truth is irrelevant to the MSM media and the media narrative is the truth liberals.

Unfortunately, too many uninformed mushy moderates fall into the “consensus” trap built by the progressive movement.

alecj on June 13, 2011 at 3:11 PM

And not to mention the cost of electricity in a few years. Going to keep everyone off the streets. China is evolving. America is devolving. We will all be riding bicycles, living without a/c and growing our own food soon.

Hey liberals, do you even know how electricity is produced in this country? It does not magically appear. Most is produced by coal. Yes, coal, which will soon be gone thanks to Obama.

carbon_footprint on June 13, 2011 at 3:11 PM

alecj on June 13, 2011 at 3:11 PM

well said

cmsinaz on June 13, 2011 at 3:12 PM

Paging Issac Newton… Issac Newton please call your office… Issac Newton…

singlemalt 18 on June 13, 2011 at 3:14 PM

The counter argument is that electric cars are “green” because they are not reliant on oil. You can get electricity from windmills or solar panels or …

Which then moves the discussion into the inefficiency of those energy sources and how they’re not really green either.

PackerBronco on June 13, 2011 at 3:14 PM

And not to mention the cost of electricity in a few years. Going to keep everyone off the streets. China is evolving. America is devolving. We will all be riding bicycles, living without a/c and growing our own food soon.

Hey liberals, do you even know how electricity is produced in this country? It does not magically appear. Most is produced by coal. Yes, coal, which will soon be gone thanks to Obama.

carbon_footprint on June 13, 2011 at 3:11 PM

You’re forgetting that this outcome is INTENTIONAL. When you look at it that way, their behavior makes perfect sense.

fossten on June 13, 2011 at 3:14 PM

The rule of thumb within the power industry, in which I work, is that every electric car consumes the equivalent of adding 10 houses to your street.

So you don’t buy gasoline (which, thanks to free market forces, is available on every major street corner)… instead, you force regulated utilities to build large generation plants. And of course, those can’t be nuclear, coal-fired, or fossil-fuel based, for reasons HAers know well… and Obama already promises to eradicate.

So, basically… we are screwed.

VastRightWingConspirator on June 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM

$40,000 is the price of a Chevy Volt.

Kini on June 13, 2011 at 3:09 PM

That’s the subsidized selling price. What would it be without the subsidy? We’re all “buying” Chevy Volts these days, it’s just that some of us aren’t getting a car in exchange for our money.

PackerBronco on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

Is Obama pushing the green-job hoax out of stupitity or malice, or both?

GaltBlvnAtty on June 13, 2011 at 3:03 PM

Has to be malice.

Even the chronically stupid begin to realize that they’re chronically stupid at some point.

Well, then again, that doesn’t explain people who still support Obama, so… I may be mistaken.

Midas on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

Batteries? Crap.

What am I going to do with the 250 miles of power cords I thought I needed to get my electric car from the house to the cabin?

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

Just how do the Marxist Poli Sci types propose powering these things up, with upwards of 20% of our entire power grid going offline, thanks to Obamtard’s new EPA regulations?

MNHawk on June 13, 2011 at 3:05 PM

Anyone else looking forward to rolling brownouts, a la California in 2000, across the entire country?

teke184 on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

The unintended consequences of good intentions

Kini on June 13, 2011 at 3:17 PM

We’re all “buying” Chevy Volts these days, it’s just that some of us aren’t getting a car in exchange for our money.

PackerBronco on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

That’s true, and GM CEO wants gas to be taxed higher to “Nudge” you into one of their crappy cars.

Kini on June 13, 2011 at 3:19 PM

The Spinner in Chif

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM

Weatherization.

It’s the future.

tree hugging sister on June 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM

We’re all “buying” Chevy Volts these days, it’s just that some of us aren’t getting a car in exchange for our money.

PackerBronco on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

That’s true, and GM CEO wants gas to be taxed higher to “Nudge” you into one of their crappy cars.

Kini on June 13, 2011 at 3:19 PM

And I still hold that “nudging” the gas tax higher by $5 won’t get people into one of those turkeys. Instead, people will buy a Prius or a Honda Civic.

teke184 on June 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM

I call dibbs on the bigest cave!
/already working on my shale spearheads…..

44Magnum on June 13, 2011 at 3:21 PM

Anyone else looking forward to rolling brownouts, a la California in 2000, across the entire country?

teke184 on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

Camp out in your Congress reps yard.

I plan on taking the 5th wheel over to Jim Moran’s this weekend to flush the septic tank.

Roy Rogers on June 13, 2011 at 3:21 PM

We are trading foreign oil for domestic energy.

So, I guess we just keep making our enemies richer so they can kill us faster.

What’s wrong with you people?

faraway on June 13, 2011 at 3:23 PM

Compressed Natural Gas.
Cleaner than gasoline.
No Taxes. (currently)
Easy to modify existing cars to run on gasoline and CNG (~$350).
Many homes and businesses already have Natural Gas at that location. (Requires compressor to fill-up at home, but Gasoline stations could easily purchase pumps.)
Slightly lower power than regular gasoline.

barnone on June 13, 2011 at 3:24 PM

Not only that, but the batteries need to be charged, generally from electricity produced by fossil fuel generators. And electic vehicles do not use that fuel (electricity) as efficiently as gasoline engines.

DuctTapeMyBrain on June 13, 2011 at 3:28 PM

And electic vehicles do not use that fuel (electricity) as efficiently as gasoline engines.

DuctTapeMyBrain on June 13, 2011 at 3:28 PM

Electric vehicles do not use any fuel that we bought from DinnerJacket.

faraway on June 13, 2011 at 3:29 PM

Anyone else looking forward to rolling brownouts, a la California in 2000, across the entire country?
teke184 on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM

Rolling brownouts? Don’t you mean “Distribution of wealth opportunities for the less fortunate”, that’s the proper term.

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 3:29 PM

To see Tomasky in pain is incredibly schadenfreudig, every time.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2011 at 3:29 PM

The worst part of a green world order is the lie that is the green world order.

Hening on June 13, 2011 at 3:31 PM

We are trading foreign oil for domestic energy.
So, I guess we just keep making our enemies richer so they can kill us faster.
What’s wrong with you people?
faraway on June 13, 2011 at 3:23 PM

I’m with you, those warmongering savages up in Canada are going to descend on us any day now.

The Lake Superior fleet at Whitefish Bay should be put on high alert, we don’t need a second Pearl Harbor.

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 3:31 PM

We will eventually learn that carbon fuels are the most eco friendly energy. Less polution of air and water, less harmful to birds, less damage to scenic country side, takes up less space, more job friendly, more cost efficient. What’s not to love about carbon fuels?

Oleta on June 13, 2011 at 3:31 PM

@teke184 on June 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM”
============================================

I will be burning a fire in my BBQ pit at night so the satellites that take earth pictures will see some light in the US unlike N.Korea.That is unless they ban BBQ pits because of the smoke.

docflash on June 13, 2011 at 3:32 PM

What is your solution?

blink on June 13, 2011 at 3:29 PM

Are you OK with nuke power and battery cars?

faraway on June 13, 2011 at 3:32 PM

Wonder what the resale with be on those pricy electric cars when our electricity rates “necessarily skyrocket” the 40-60% now being predicted for 2014 and beyond.

CJ on June 13, 2011 at 3:33 PM

However, electric cars can and should be used to reduce US dependence on foreign oil.

blink on June 13, 2011 at 2:59 PM

..so should drilling for oil here.

The War Planner on June 13, 2011 at 3:33 PM

They are not electrical cars… they are coal powered cars because that is how the electricity is produced given the Gaiahadists campaign to cripple nuclear and hydroelectric power generation.

DANEgerus on June 13, 2011 at 3:34 PM

I take strong exception to the term “green” being applied to reduced CO2 output. CO2 is a naturally-occurring, “green” chemical and saying its reduction is green is buying in to the premise of the AGW, junk science alarmists.

MJBrutus on June 13, 2011 at 3:35 PM

From what I hear we can also make our asphalt shingles, cell phone cases, and toothbrushes from wind.

Top men are working on it right now.

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 3:35 PM

That is true. Do you support building more electricity generation plants that use coal and nuclear?

blink on June 13, 2011 at 3:31 PM

..yep, I do. especially nuke. Then we could use sell our excess or ise it to desalinate water and produce hydrogen through electrolysis like the Frogs do.

The War Planner on June 13, 2011 at 3:35 PM

ise=use

The War Planner on June 13, 2011 at 3:36 PM

Why has no one stated the obvious solution? Imprison all the enviro-wackjobs and have them pedal stationary bicycle generators so the rest of us can live in relative happiness without them!

TugboatPhil on June 13, 2011 at 3:36 PM

It’s not easy being green.

faraway on June 13, 2011 at 3:37 PM

Why not convert to natural gas?

Ed, being sensible will get you nowhere.

John the Libertarian on June 13, 2011 at 3:39 PM

I call dibbs on the bigest cave!
/already working on my shale spearheads…..

44Magnum on June 13, 2011 at 3:21 PM

Selling shares of my obsidian mine – its better than flint!

tomg51 on June 13, 2011 at 3:42 PM

More nuclear power would be great. Idiot Obama only pretended to support it. We are losing out on valuable time.

blink on June 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM

..no argument here!

The War Planner on June 13, 2011 at 3:42 PM

No Blood for Oil Lithium!

Kenosha Kid on June 13, 2011 at 3:43 PM

This failed solution is a prelude to the death spiral of the auto industry. The government wants us all on mass transit anyway. We are easier to control that way.

southsideironworks on June 13, 2011 at 3:45 PM

LOL @ the ad just under the article: “Goodbye Gasoline”, an ad for Ryobi 24V lithium tools.

Uncle Sams Nephew on June 13, 2011 at 3:48 PM

Additionally, nuclear plants should be built cookie-cutter. The US should approve one (or two at the most) designs for new plants. Then, the reduced cost of regulation, engineering changes, and labor (via consolidated standards) would lower the overall cost of nuclear power even more. I’ve heard from industry friends that this could lower the cost by as much at 33%.

blink on June 13, 2011 at 3:46 PM

Do you have a picture of Marx you carry with your family pictures?

miConsevative on June 13, 2011 at 3:49 PM

The Lake Superior fleet at Whitefish Bay should be put on high alert, we don’t need a second Pearl Harbor.

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 3:31 PM

Damn straight! “Remember the Edmond Fitzgerald”! I never bought that hatch caving in crap. It was one them ‘stealthed’ Canadian trawlers that did them in. Sneaky bastiges.

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 3:51 PM

I prefer stronger environmental measures than most people whom I agree with on economic matters. Living in the deep blue America, I encounter many environmentalists with pie in the sky environmental issues. I’m sure I have been pointing out for over a decade that electric cars fail to make sense, because of the likely implications of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that is, it will take more energy to both generate the electricity and then run the car than it would to just have car generate energy itself with a fuel source and engine. I have learned that most “environmentalists” believe that the electricity used to power electric cars will come from pixie dust which doesn’t harm the environment.

Environmentalism is a good idea, but I understand why it is held in contempt here by so many people. Most “environmentalists” are delusional fools. I am an environmentalist, but I hope one who live in reality.

thuja on June 13, 2011 at 3:51 PM

.. about that $7500 tax credit; read elsewhere (research possibly required) that some dealers, in the course of using their Volt’s as demos, have been titleing themselves as ‘first owner’ and thus capturing the credits for themselves.

Upon sale, the ‘citizen owner’ gets a “B” title, and therefore doesn’t qualify for the $7500.

Government Motors, indeed
/.

CaveatEmpty on June 13, 2011 at 3:56 PM

Additionally, nuclear plants should be built cookie-cutter. The US should approve one (or two at the most) designs for new plants. Then, the reduced cost of regulation, engineering changes, and labor (via consolidated standards) would lower the overall cost of nuclear power even more. I’ve heard from industry friends that this could lower the cost by as much at 33%.

blink on June 13, 2011 at 3:46 PM

You need to get the stars out of your eyes. I don’t know who your ‘industry friends’ are but the next time they tell you something like that just ask them what it costs to produce a megawatt of electricity from coal and how much for one from nuclear. If they can’t give you a solid dollar amount then ignore them. You might also ask them how much, on average, their companies sell those same megawatts for.

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 3:57 PM

NO MORE GREEN.

It’s gonna kill the environment; between the lithium mining (electric cars), the mercury poisoning (light bulbs), and the ethanol farce, all of these “green” initiatives are not only not helping, but actually quite damaging.

This is of course ignoring the economic pollution.

hillbillyjim on June 13, 2011 at 3:57 PM

The $7500 subsidy for the electric toy cars is just an extension of “Cash for Clunkers”:

…only the definition of “Clunkers” has changed: they are now all named things like “Volt,” “Leaf,” etc. The old-definition clunkers were actually usable vehicles which were able to go more than 40 miles without a forced overnight stop for ‘refueling’.

The old “Clunkers” used to be able to take the family 3500 miles from one coast to the other comfortably in 6 days: the same trip will take either 10 days (if you rely on the ‘auxiliary’ gasoline engine) or 88 days if you insist on all-electric travel with no gasoline usage. Either way, it will cost an extra 4-82 days’ time and an extra $400-$8200 cost in extra motel bills when you use a Government Motors vehicle. Of course there are also the follow-on “re-education” camps (aka ‘indoctrination’) at the end of the trip in order to re-convince you that using an electric car for actual transportation was a rational decision.

Ain’t Government-Sanctioned Moonbat design wonderful???

NEXT: Building on the same logic as the “battery-powered car,” Wacko Lefty “People-are-Evil” Environmentalists will try to convince everyone to use “permanent diapers” on babies, and when the diapers are full, throw the baby away and import a new one from China (domestic baby production will be outlawed).

/sarc>

landlines on June 13, 2011 at 3:57 PM

Damn straight! “Remember the Edmond Fitzgerald”! I never bought that hatch caving in crap. It was one them ‘stealthed’ Canadian trawlers that did them in. Sneaky bastiges.
Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 3:51 PM

“Remember Pearl Harbor!” can be replaced by “Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings, in the ruins of her ice water mansion!”

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 4:00 PM

Ed! When is someone going to look at the potential danger of sitting on a 300 lb battery a few hours a day! Hell, if a cell phone can give you brain cancer, what will sitting on this give you?

Dread Pirate Roberts VI on June 13, 2011 at 4:00 PM

It’s not easy being green.
faraway on June 13, 2011 at 3:37 PM

So it’s not easy to enjoy all the luxuries of an advanced society while simultaneously condemning how they were obtained.

Bishop on June 13, 2011 at 4:01 PM

Environmentalism is a good idea, but I understand why it is held in contempt here by so many people. Most “environmentalists” are delusional fools. I am an environmentalist, but I hope one who live in reality.

thuja on June 13, 2011 at 3:51 PM

Most environmentalist I’ve encountered are moral busybodies, as C.S. Lewis said. They try and force you to conform to their thinking by making life as uncomfortable as possible. Especially when they are in government.

If they want to go to bed at night thinking they’ve saved a tree or a whale, then I’d wish they would do so at their own expense, not mine.

This is what scares me about Mitt. He believes this global warming crap, and he will act on it, at our expense.

Kini on June 13, 2011 at 4:06 PM

How is it Marxist to support nuclear power? Is it because I support keeping nuclear power plants uniform (cookie-cutter)? I assume that you favor government regulation of nuclear power. This includes approving new plant designs, and regulating those plans throughout their lifetime. Why not make the design and management of the plants cheaper via economies of scale?

blink on June 13, 2011 at 3:54 PM

Personally I didn’t see anything Marxist in you posts, just a smidgen of starry eyed idealism. Nothing really wrong with that but don’t let it cloud your judgment. Being an actual industry insider I will tell you that I support government regulation of nuclear power. In order to explain that to you I’d have to show you a lot of documentation that is not going to be available in a forum like this. Things like the trip and shutdown reports for a plant that’s been running from since before TMI. Right now I’m just going to tell you that after TMI when the industry stopped trying to run their nukes like their coal plants that they very quickly became top, reliable, safe producers of electricity. Increased scrutiny brought an increased sense of responsibility and this resulted in more knowledgeable operating, engineering and maintenance personnel throughout the industry. Availability of nukes shot up, Rx trip events and unscheduled outages went down dramatically and equipment reliability went through the roof. To put this in perspective a little for you I have, back in the early days, personally had two reactor trips and one safety injection during the course of one 12 hour shift. Today there are licensed reactor operators working at the plant I retired from who have never actually shut the plant down much less had a trip. Don’t let that fool you they have plenty of training and experience shutting down and starting up the plant it’s just that it’s all on the simulator. There are reasons that you can’t have cookie cutter power plants due to site and area specifics but standardized plants are a good idea and it’s where the industry is headed….if it ever gets started again.

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 4:12 PM

Well, I certainly went through the numbers with them, but I relied on their estimated cost of regulation. Do you disagree?

blink on June 13, 2011 at 4:03 PM

Well If you went through the numbers with them then what does it cost to produce one megawatt of electricity?

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM

Burning gas isn’t green enough for me. I need a car that runs on uranium, coal and gasoline.

forest on June 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM

So, if you think 33% is starry eyed. What percentage cost savings do you think can come from standardized plants?

blink on June 13, 2011 at 4:17 PM

Almost all the cost savings will be on the construction and engineering end. Operation costs will not be affected all that much. Depending on the design there may be some savings in the maintenance area since there will, supposedly, be fewer pumps and valves. But we have a saying things that work in theory don’t work at (insert name of power plant here).

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 4:22 PM

blink on June 13, 2011 at 4:17 PM

I wouldn’t even try to give you a percentage of savings at this juncture. How could you even guess since no new nuke plants have been built in decades. What would you compare it to?

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 4:24 PM

We should just go to Flintstone cars. They got around just fine, except when Dino was on the hood.

Monkeytoe on June 13, 2011 at 2:57 PM

Or when Fred would order that mamma-jamma-sized rack of ribs.

CaptFlood on June 13, 2011 at 4:25 PM

Burning gas isn’t green enough for me. I need a car that runs on uranium, coal and gasoline.

forest on June 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM

..how about the car from Back to the Future?

The War Planner on June 13, 2011 at 4:33 PM

Quite a pickle! Makes the pious prius drivers look sort of like suckers. What to do? Buy Toyota stock!!

I, personally, want to keep the illusion alive. They’re making huge profits on those babies!!

Pablo Snooze on June 13, 2011 at 4:36 PM

No, duh.

Knott Buyinit on June 13, 2011 at 4:36 PM

Second, I don’t remember the numbers at the time, but please tell me your estimates. Somewhere between $20 and $40?

blink on June 13, 2011 at 4:30 PM

It’s not an estimate. It cost $26 per megawatt to produce which was a few cents under what our best coal producer did.

Oldnuke on June 13, 2011 at 4:37 PM

Natural gas will never be accepted by the green fascists.Yes it is practically pollution free but if still produces C02.Since all large scale energy production, save nuclear, produces Co2 that tells you what’s going on.The Greens want a rollback of industrial civilization.The idealistic of them want a green world of windmills,solar panels,locally grown food, and communal society.The more malevolent see it as a means of total control of population,right down to reproduction limits and eugenics.The fact that natural gas is clean of the kinds of pollutants in oil,coal, and wood is irrelevant.This has never been about clean air.When new clean recnnologies came about the argument shifted to man made climate change and Co2.

xkaydet65 on June 13, 2011 at 4:38 PM

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