Doubling down on electric cars?
posted at 9:25 am on June 1, 2011 by Ed Morrissey
I felt like taking on a sacred cow for my latest column at The Week, and so I chose … electric cars. They’re quite the rage in green circles, and certainly with the Obama administration, but they’re hardly alone in that. The Bush and Clinton administration put efforts into R&D for electric vehicles in order to end our dependence on foreign oil and curtail emissions in order to improve our environmental outlook. And it’s not just liberals, either; longtime conservative activist Gary Bauer has signed onto the Energy Security Leadership Council along with two former generals and FedEx’s CEO Fred Smith to push for policies favoring electric vehicles.
But do electric vehicles make sense for energy independence, environmental improvement, or just plain common economics? I argue no:
The life span of car batteries in electric vehicles will run as short as three years, possibly as long as eight years. At that point, consumers will have to buy replacements in order to keep the vehicle operational. For the Nissan Leaf, that will cost about $10,000, at least as predicted now. Car owners could rebuild their internal combustion engines four times over for that price. …
Where do we plan to put all of the dead batteries that will necessarily have to be discarded? Some (but not all) components can be recycled, and those elements which must be disposed are not terribly eco-friendly, depending on the kind of batteries made. Lithium ion seems to be the direction most car manufacturers are heading, which poses fewer disposal risks to the environment — but still poses risks in mining and manufacturing, especially to groundwater.
Lithium also poses another blow to the argument for the electric car — its domestic availability. Eighty-five percent of the known reserves are inBolivia, Chile, and China, and lithium is not the only element needed for large-scale production of car battery systems. Large flake graphite is also needed, and China controls 80 percent of the market, along with other “rare earth” elements. Far from ending our dependence on foreign resources, we will merely exchange our dependence from the Middle East to China, which is not exactly an encouraging thought for our future.
Even if we did have these elements in abundance, we would need to mine and drill for them. Those are precisely the activities that environmentalists and short-sighted government policies have been blocking for decades in coal, oil, shale, and natural gas. Besides, “peak lithium” may arrive long before “peak oil,” as the Argonne National Laboratory estimates that we only have enough lithium available to manufacture car batteries through 2050 — less than 40 years from now. A lithium “crunch” could occur by 2017 — which also hardly lends confidence to the reliability of the electric car as a long-term solution.
And where do we get the electricity to charge millions of vehicles? We’re already having problems with the electric grid, a point that seems to come up a lot in political campaigns but not much in actual governance. Instead of deriving energy through gasoline through internal combustion, car owners will have to pay electric companies to provide the juice. Those providers will have to build new production plants to supply it. What sources will those plants use to generate electricity for the millions of new vehicles that will need a charge? Right now, the only resources that could supply that massive level of need would be coal, natural gas, and possibly nuclear power, none of which environmentalists want used for electricity now.
Take a stroll through the comments at The Week if you get the chance, too. Several commenters said that with this attitude, we’d still be driving horses and buggies. The difference is that the automobile was a private-sector solution for personal transportation needs, not a government program for environmentalism. The car didn’t require decades of subsidies and policy barriers against its competition in order to succeed; it succeeded on its own terms, in both economics and in the needs of the consumer.
Consumers seem to already understand that, as the sales of Chevy Volts and Nissan Leafs have been less than spectacular. In some cases, they may also be part of a three-card monty to hype the vehicles and stick some money in the pockets of dealers — at taxpayer expense [see update 1 for GM, Nissan response]:
But I discovered something far more disturbing during my search. Many Volts with practically no miles on them are being sold as “used” vehicles, enabling the dealerships to benefit from the $7,500 credit supplied by the American taxpayers on each car. The process of titling the Volts technically makes the dealerships the first owners of the vehicles, which gives them the ability to claim the subsidies. The cars are then offered to retail customers as “used” vehicles.
The practice of dealerships purchasing from one another is not uncommon. “Dealer trades” are done all the time in the industry. What is very unusual is for the receiving dealership to be able to maximize profits at the expense of taxpayers by claiming tax credits of $7,500. It is also very rare for dealerships to part with any model that has higher demand than supply, as GM claims is the case with the Volt. In addition to qualifying dealerships for a $7,500 tax subsidy, the titling process also allows GM to record Volt sales even if the cars are sitting on dealership lots.
While most of the dealerships offering “used” Chevy Volts for sale are Chevy dealers, I also found other manufacturers selling Volts with low mileage as “used” cars. A Kia dealership in California that I contacted seemed to suspect that they were doing something a bit underhanded when I called them to inquire about a “used” Volt for sale with only 30 miles on it. After I identified myself as being an associate with the National Legal and Policy Center, I was placed on hold. I was then told by a sales manager that the Volts offered at that dealership were rental cars with higher mileage on them. I later called the same dealership back posing as a potential customer and confirmed that a “used” Volt with only 30 miles on it was available. This also raises the question of why GM or Chevy dealerships would be selling Volts to other manufacturers’ dealerships when they claim that there are not enough of the cars to meet retail demand.
A Chevy dealer in Chicago was more upfront with the info given on a “used” Chevy Volt with only 10 miles on it. The vehicle was being offered at MSRP. When I asked if I was eligible for the $7500 tax credit, I was told that I probably wasn’t since the dealership was applying for the subsidy. This practice is one of the more egregious abuses to date purloined upon taxpayers as a result of the GM bailout. The intent (even if misguided) of the $7500 tax credit offered on the Chevy Volt is to encourage consumers to buy “green” vehicles, not to offer an opportunity for dealerships to game the system and maximize profits at the expense of the taxpayers. I also suspect many purchasers of “used” Volts will attempt to claim the $7500 tax credit for themselves, thus bringing the total tax subsidy on such transactions to $15,000 if not disallowed by the IRS.
Like most attempts by government to pick winners and losers, it doesn’t take long for corruption to set in.
We may need to move beyond the gasoline-powered car for our future, but so far, electric isn’t a choice that makes sense in economic, environmental, or independence contexts. So what does? Natural gas might be a better choice. It’s been in personal vehicle technology for decades; I drove a natural-gas taxi for a brief period of time in the 1980s, and they have limited use even today, mainly in government vehicles. The fuel burns clean, and the source is abundant in the US if producers would be allowed to explore and extract it. At the very least, it makes more sense than the current electric-car push.
Update: GM and Nissan respond to the NLPC’s allegations in Automobilemag:
A dramatic report from a Virginia-based non-profit claims that Chevrolet dealerships are stealing a federal tax credit from customers, but General Motors says that’s not the case, and that the accusations are “confused.”
To help offset the high cost of new green cars, the federal government offers buyers of electric cars like the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf a $7500 tax credit. However, the National Legal and Policy Center says it has identified two dealerships that titled a new Volt and claimed the $7500 tax incentive for their own coffers, then resold the vehicle as used. Buyers of a used Volt are ineligible for the tax break, leading the NLPC to accuse Chevrolet dealerships of “gaming” the tax credit.
In response to the report, Volt spokesman Rob Peterson says there is little cause for concern. The two dealerships contacted by the NLPC are legally unable to sell a new Chevrolet Volt. One is a Kia dealership in California, which can’t sell the Chevy for obvious reasons; the other is a Chevrolet dealer in Chicago, which can’t sell a Volt as a new vehicle as Illinois is outside of the car’s launch markets.
Peterson said there’s no real issue with the practice so long as dealerships are honest with customers — and based on the NLPC report, both dealers willingly inform customers that the cars are technically used, and are therefore ineligible for the tax credit.
Yes, but both cars were “used” with less than 100 miles on them. Someone got the tax credit, and if it wasn’t the dealers, then who?









Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Be There. Andrea Vs. Weiner: 1 p.m.
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowldc/be-there-andrea-vs-weiner-1-p-m_b40743
ninjapirate on June 1, 2011 at 9:26 AM
Saw on FoxNews this morning the “White House fleet” of limousines has increased from 200+ to 400+. Cadillacs, dontchaknow.
Marcus on June 1, 2011 at 9:27 AM
$10,000 for a new battery??? YIKES!
I hope the dealer tells customers this BEFORE they sign any paperwork!
Tony737 on June 1, 2011 at 9:27 AM
unlike electric cars, cows are actually useful.
ted c on June 1, 2011 at 9:29 AM
Oh, good gravy, she’s going to be worse than Jon Stewart. Brietbart Brietbart Brietbart Brietbart Brietbart……….
Marcus on June 1, 2011 at 9:29 AM
Nuclear powered cars is the way to go.
Works for aircraft carriers!
/waiting for seed money to fall on my lap
Shy Guy on June 1, 2011 at 9:31 AM
did Ed intend to make that pun?
ted c on June 1, 2011 at 9:31 AM
Commies are better than muslims when it comes to this because M.A.D. works with commies, but not muslims.
Tony737 on June 1, 2011 at 9:31 AM
Between this, and scamming the SSDI and unemployment programs, it appears that statist goverment’s most successful aspect is the encouragement of fraud.
Vashta.Nerada on June 1, 2011 at 9:34 AM
Which is why I’m done buying anything from GM, I like the look of the new Ford trucks better anyway.
Bishop on June 1, 2011 at 9:35 AM
If there’s a way to scam Uncle, someone will find it. It’s a national pastime. Slightly off topic, the Dept of Interior bought Nissan Priuses for Zion Natl Park to go along with their propane powered buses. It is a narrow canyon with winding roads and no parking is allowed at the sight seeing stops along the way so I agree with the propane as fuel, but buying foreign cars when we have so many domestic ones is an absolute travesty. They could have bought a few Volts, used or not. BTW, didn’t someone discover a lot of lithium in Afghanistan?
Kissmygrits on June 1, 2011 at 9:36 AM
Yeah, I did. I like puns. This one was kind of lame, I admit, but still fun.
Ed Morrissey on June 1, 2011 at 9:38 AM
Don’t these cars take an incredible long time to charge? And what about the cost of charging them? My electric bill is already extremely high due to local gov. raising rates and taxes on it.
The city of LA tried using electic cars but more or less abandoned them. City pols prefer big SUVs.
Blake on June 1, 2011 at 9:42 AM
I have always loved the eco-minded greenies pushing the devastatingly un-eco or green electric car idea.
Personally I would love an electric car but I realize that it is a niche product that suites my needs for short commutes (I drive less the 60 miles avg a week). It would have to be cheap to make sense.
forgotten_man on June 1, 2011 at 9:43 AM
FIFY
Shy Guy on June 1, 2011 at 9:46 AM
No to mention, range is limited. A few times a year I travel 600+ miles to visit family. Which means 2 refueling stops. With gasoline, I’m in and out of the rest stop in 10 minutes (on a good day.) With battery charging, I’d have to wait what, 8 hours? Which effectively means 3 days of traveling each way, this is highly inefficient.
rbj on June 1, 2011 at 9:47 AM
So out of the 200 “sales” reported by GM it’s really what?
10?
This whole thing is Soviet!
golfmann on June 1, 2011 at 9:48 AM
Much like the mandates in Obamacare, why doesn’t Obama just mandate that every American family buy at least 1 $40+k Chevy Volt in order to save Government Motors!?
easyt65 on June 1, 2011 at 9:48 AM
Having spent over 20 years managing dealerships, I can assure you, to shore up a lackluster month or quarter the lure of a $7500 gross, on top of the normal markup and holdback would be too good to pass up.
Normally, a dealership never wants to “title” a vehicle unless they are going to use it for a long time (in house rental or lot/plow truck) because of depreciation, but with a Volt, the used value is gonna be damn near sticker anyway for quite a while so the dealership can sell it to itself (it’s in house leasing company or rental dept) at full sticker plus the $7500 and it will make the bottom line look a whole better in todays lackluster profit picture. Even better they won’t have to pay a commission to any salesperson either, a real plus to most of the dealers I worked for.
Bottom line, whenever the government gets involved there is always a way to take advantage.
Tim Zank on June 1, 2011 at 9:49 AM
How many time can you rebuild an engine for $10,000. My Ford pickup has 130,000 miles on it and I haven’t touched the engine except for regular maintenance. Why is the government trying to screw over the consumers?
kam582 on June 1, 2011 at 9:49 AM
that’s funny. Made me think of what Latin for “push” means and I think I came up with some ideas for future electric car model names….
ted c on June 1, 2011 at 9:50 AM
Please keep in mind that temperature changes (such as cold weather) also dramatically effect the life of the battery.
liberal speak for:
…to offset the high cost of this product…we are going to tax the he!! out of the consumer to subsidize this product, because that is the only way we can compete in the open market.
Only a complete idiot would believe that subsidizing products and businesses with tax dollars because they can’t make a profit on their own ……is smart.
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 9:51 AM
Toyotas are predominately made in the United States. They’re certainly no less American at this juncture than Chevy or Mopar, and union-free to boot.
Also, yes, vast stretches of technological metals have been found in Afghanistan. Estimates have thrown around values nearing $1Trillion dollars. Shame there’s no infrastructure to support drilling or mining.
Sgt Steve on June 1, 2011 at 9:51 AM
The Volt has a controlled climate for its battery bank for this reason. The Leaf doesn’t, however.
Ed Morrissey on June 1, 2011 at 9:53 AM
the battery will be sittin’ pretty in its little hooch, the occupants of the car, however…..?
ted c on June 1, 2011 at 9:57 AM
Do they make an electric truck with lots of HP and torque, because I’d look pretty stupid trying to haul a load of plywood in a Chevy Volt.
Bishop on June 1, 2011 at 9:57 AM
The Volt may be “green”…but everything associated with it is more like the color brown.
search4truth on June 1, 2011 at 9:58 AM
When do GM and a handful of their dealerships get slapped with fines, criminal/fraud/racketeering charges etc?
Seriously?
I’m damn sick and tired of what seem like weekly if not daily news stories that demonstrate open and outright fraud being perpetrated on the US taxpayer by politicians, cronies, etc.
Midas on June 1, 2011 at 10:00 AM
….I put over 280,000 miles on my Avalanche 5.3 Vortec engine before it broke down (needed valve work).
…..I choose to buy a used 5.3 with 20,000 miles on it for $1,500.
Runs great and I am ready for several hundred thousand more miles.
…..The car companies love the government money coming their way.They are in the business of making money…period.
The environmentalist (you really mean lobbyist) are making money and buying off politicians in such high numbers that the oil companies are getting jealous.
Going “green” has a lot more to do with making the environmental lobby rich than it does with saving polar bears.
Al-Gore has made well over a hundred millions dollars pushing his Global Warming scheme.He preaches about “conservationism” and “living greener” while running around in private jets,limousines,living in mansions and spewing out more Co2 than the average third world country.
Just follow the money and you will see the true agenda of the eco-fundamentalist..
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 10:02 AM
I love puns. I once entered a pun contest, submitting nearly a dozen entries. I had hoped to win with one of them, but sadly, no pun in ten did.
DrAllecon on June 1, 2011 at 10:03 AM
Enjoy a cable car ride in SF. 100+ years ago!
Mr_Magoo on June 1, 2011 at 10:03 AM
But otherwise, they’re like, awesome.
Paul-Cincy on June 1, 2011 at 10:05 AM
With all the components needed residing in China, you’d almost think the Chicoms were putting pressure on the US govt to push this idea even if it didn’t make any sense for us to do it..:0…..oh wait.
Alden Pyle on June 1, 2011 at 10:07 AM
Which also means you have to find a place/motel where you can charge it.
Blake on June 1, 2011 at 10:09 AM
I wonder how much battery life is being eaten up to control this climate?????
Eating up energy to keep a battery from losing energy still cuts into the efficiency.
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 10:09 AM
Democrats were looking for a way to keep people where they are.
They are losing too many voters to non-union, low tax states.
Roy Rogers on June 1, 2011 at 10:11 AM
Which also leaves you more susceptible to being a victim of crime.
You can bet that criminals will love hitting cars and their drivers knowing that they can’t get away.
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 10:12 AM
It’s interesting that Mr. Peterson, Volt spokesman, failed to really answer the question.
Cindy Munford on June 1, 2011 at 10:12 AM
The only thing that seems to matter to Libs is if a program/policy “sounds good” and makes them feel good about themselves.
Unbiased data, history, and harsh economic realities are minor distractions, at best.
Self-congratulation is of utmost importance to the Left and their supporters, period.
visions on June 1, 2011 at 10:13 AM
*Note to self – play Fallout 3 when I get home*
fossten on June 1, 2011 at 10:16 AM
The Left could care less about private sector solutions. Heck, many of them actually believe that the government built America’s railroads, when in fact the majority of the early railroads in the US were privately capitalized. Likewise they don’t know that the first turnpikes were also privately built.
Del Dolemonte on June 1, 2011 at 10:16 AM
Car dealers are “honest”? Who knew?
GarandFan on June 1, 2011 at 10:17 AM
Why pay for high maintenance on a Volt, for goodness sake?
We drive two high mileage, low maintenance, Toyotas.
When I want to pay a lot for maintenance, I take out the Mini Cooper Clubman S.
tomg51 on June 1, 2011 at 10:19 AM
Come on Del….you know that government is the answer.
Look how well the “big dig” worked out in UMass.
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 10:29 AM
The UAW?
BobMbx on June 1, 2011 at 10:32 AM
You probably omitted the /sarc tag, since a nuclear reactor is far too heavy to be mounted on a car, although it does work on aircraft carriers.
But it could be feasible (in large cities) to use hydrogen-powered vehicles, where the hydrogen is obtained by electrolysis of water using nuclear power plants. Not gas plants, since it’s more efficient to burn natural gas directly in a car than use it to make hydrogen.
Steve Z on June 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM
Gee….I wonder how Obama is going to make that $1 billion for his campaign? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
capejasmine on June 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM
Detroit IS the poster city of unions and big government.
We don’t need to read no steeenkin plans to build these cars!
Roy Rogers on June 1, 2011 at 10:39 AM
link:http://www.apatheticvoter.com/GovernmentWaste-MA.htm
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 10:40 AM
Looking at the Volt the first thing they seem to tout is the lower weight but at 3800lbs its at least 1300lbs too heavy for any practical use from the size of the battery and its output.
The typical design by government committee. Fail.
Speakup on June 1, 2011 at 10:42 AM
unlike electric cars, cows are actually useful.
ted c on June 1, 2011 at 9:29 AM
Yes but all that……methane ;0
gitarfan on June 1, 2011 at 10:51 AM
We call it “country” where I come from.
Roy Rogers on June 1, 2011 at 10:56 AM
Obama is AWSOME!!!!!
Hope and Change:
GM Sales in China Jump 66.9% in 2009 to All-Time High, Continue to Lead the Industry
2010-01-04
http://media.gm.com/content/media/cn/en/news/news_detail.brand_gm.html/content/Pages/news/cn/en/2010/January/0104
“We are proud of our performance in 2009,” said Kevin Wale, President and Managing Director of the GM China Group.
GM works to keep top spot in Chinese market, double annual sales
http://autonews.gasgoo.com/china-news/gm-works-to-keep-top-spot-in-chinese-market-doubl-110420.shtml
I remember when liberals were in the streets yelling about how Republicans were sending our jobs overseas….
……..looks like that disappeared when a democrat took the White House just like all the anti-war selective outrage.
Looks like when Obama stated he was going to have a “laser like focus on jobs”….he was talking about Chinese jobs.
Baxter Greene on June 1, 2011 at 10:56 AM
From a “green” perspective, all you need to know about electric cars is that they are not powered by electricity, they are powered by oil, gas, coal, or nuclear.
ZenDraken on June 1, 2011 at 11:03 AM
Our local utility likes to flex its monopolistic muscles by actually charging higher rates for more energy consumption. That means when you charge your Volt every night you get boosted into a higher usage bracket and your electric bill goes sky high. Way to go government!!
Free Indeed on June 1, 2011 at 11:06 AM
People are so accustomed to merely “plugging something in” to get electric power that they forget where electricity comes from.
An average gasoline-powered car can convert about 30% of the heat of combustion of gasoline into power to the wheels.
An electric motor is usually about 80% efficient, but if the electricity comes from a coal-fired power plant at 40% efficiency (minus power losses in transmission), the overall efficiency on coal is 0.40 x 0.80 = 32%, and what has been gained, if the batteries are so much heavier than a gasoline engine that the car can’t run uphill?
Natural-gas-fired (combined-cycle) power plants run at about 65% efficiency, so that the overall efficiency of an electric car would be about 0.65 x 0.80 = 52%, but in that case, why not run cars directly on natural gas, which is more efficient than gasoline?
Electric vehicles may have their place, such as utility vehicles or forklifts in warehouses, where exhaust emissions would be dangerous to employees.
For long-range outdoor transport, a pure-electric car is impractical, expensive, and inefficient. If people want to cut down fuel consumption, the “hybrid” cars are MUCH more practical, because they use “excess” energy generated by the gasoline engine (and by braking) at high speeds to recharge the batteries, which can then be used for low-speed driving, where the gasoline engine is inefficient.
Hybrid cars can get 40 to 50 miles per gallon of gasoline, without any additional energy input from the power company, and NO government subsidies. Hybrid cars are more expensive to buy than gasoline-only cars, but if gasoline gets expensive enough, people will have the market incentive to buy them.
Steve Z on June 1, 2011 at 11:06 AM
I bet the volt does great driving in the snow and it’s 20 degrees below zero in February here… add that electricity is 2x the national average per kwH, and excise taxes are based on teh MSRP of the vehicle… sounds like a winner to me.
maineconservative on June 1, 2011 at 11:07 AM
The next Obamanation will be the peddle-car. Obama goes from the ridiculous to the sublime making all stops in between.
rplat on June 1, 2011 at 11:08 AM
Great work, Ed.
From GM’s response that allegations are “confused”:
Are you fracking kidding me? The article that links to was written in December 2010. Consumers still can’t purchase a Volt outside of the original “launch markets”? Why the heck don’t they expand the locations where they can be sold? Surely Obama’s greeniac hometown of Chicago would be a viable market if they’re such a great product.
Buy Danish on June 1, 2011 at 11:11 AM
I think every story should just have this title. Think of all the brain cells that we would save…
Mr_Magoo on June 1, 2011 at 11:14 AM
Exactly. All he did was open up a new can of worms.
Buy Danish on June 1, 2011 at 11:16 AM
This is all more evidence that the “Green” in green initiatives is not chlorophyll, but YOUR TAX MONEY!!!
Vehicles need PORTABLE energy sources: batteries are NOT “sources,” but merely temporary (and inefficient) storage devices.
There is a reason that all useful vehicles are powered by the high-density, high power-to-weight ratio energy found in chemical or atomic structures.
landlines on June 1, 2011 at 11:16 AM
What’s wrong with dealers taking the tax credit themselves? It’s not as if the purchaser of the used vehicle is able to get another tax credit on it. I don’t understand Ed’s issue with this.
Overall, I think electric vehicles with a natural gas charging engine and solar cell charger is the way to go in the future. Obviously, this should be a 10 year plan, and not something that should be attempted too quickly.
blink on June 1, 2011 at 11:31 AM
I travel in interior Alaska in the winter. I sure wouldn’t want to be driving an electric car!
tbear44 on June 1, 2011 at 11:36 AM
Charging an electric vehicle with solar cells is completely impractical. Even if it was always sunny, you could never deploy a solar array large enough to produce the needed power. And then you would still have an inefficient substitute for a real vehicle.
Hopefully you will never be a part of government: at least not until you have earned an engineering degree so that you understand power and energy, and have some practical experience in the field. We don’t need any more “desk pilots” dictating impractical technical “solutions.”
landlines on June 1, 2011 at 11:43 AM
Go to your room.
Mason on June 1, 2011 at 11:44 AM
And I’m sure it has a great heater too.
tbear44 on June 1, 2011 at 11:46 AM
This is not true. I’ve done the math for people plenty of times.
The cell would merely be a slight (approx 5%) range extender for long trips, but would be great for people that park their car outdoors while they’re at work. Charging energy from a one square meter cell over 8 hours would easily provide enough energy for a 20 minute drive home.
This is how most people utilize their vehicles. I’m not suggesting that electric vehicles should replace 100% of gasoline powered engines. Electric vehicles should replace about 25% of the current vehicles. This would certainly lower energy prices and would probably cut our oil imports by about a third.
blink on June 1, 2011 at 11:55 AM
And let’s dive right into my understanding of power and energy. Bring it. I’m quite sure I know much, much more about this than you.
Btw, it’s strange that you completely ignored the fact that I indicated that the vehicle should also have a natural gas charging engine.
blink on June 1, 2011 at 11:59 AM
Right… which makes me suspect this “environmentalism” is all just a pretext to shut down our economy and shift the wealth abroad.
petefrt on June 1, 2011 at 12:04 PM
What happened to the hydrogen/fuel cell solution? This solves a lot of the problems that batteries have like recharge time, battery disposal and temperature performance dependance. I suspect the hydrogen push was killed by congress since it was heavily endorsed by George W. Bush.
LakeLevel on June 1, 2011 at 12:05 PM
If you don’t think automotive industry lobbyists had a deep impact on this country’s spending and policy decisions, you might want to look into this topic further.
Ed’s secret history as a taxi car driver?
bayam on June 1, 2011 at 12:18 PM
Unfortunately, it requires too much energy to produce the hydrogen.
blink on June 1, 2011 at 12:22 PM
Stupid comment. What on earth makes you think that the automotive “industry” had any lobbying power when the companies were all new and just starting out?
Do you ever think before you write anything?
blink on June 1, 2011 at 12:25 PM
So if GM is selling 400-500 Volts a month and you omit dealership to dealership sales like these, how many Volts are being sold a month?
JavelinaBomb on June 1, 2011 at 12:34 PM
Having lived in Las Vegas for over ten years, I know a standard lead-acid auto battery is good for about 2.5 – 3 years. The summer heat is a battery killer.
I can’t imagine how a Volt or similar electric car will ever be an economic alternative is this environment.
mike in NV on June 1, 2011 at 12:44 PM
Don’t forget, the feddle gummint bought a bunch of them too.
slickwillie2001 on June 1, 2011 at 12:54 PM
One is a Kia dealership in California, which can’t sell the Chevy for obvious reasons Obviously. So how did the dealer get one on the lot?
the other is a Chevrolet dealer in Chicago, which can’t sell a Volt as a new vehicle as Illinois is outside of the car’s launch markets Oops…another Obamamobile lands on a dealer’s lot who can’t legally (??) sell it, but it is legally entitled to that $7,500 gift from the American taxpayer.
Color me confused.
BobMbx on June 1, 2011 at 1:29 PM
There are no known 3rd world countries that have a monopoly or limited reserves of hydrogen. Who would we send the subsidy to?
It takes more energy to produce and distribute the hydrogen than it saves in gasoline in retail use. Its a net negative source of energy.
BobMbx on June 1, 2011 at 1:33 PM
Please keep in mind that temperature changes (such as cold weather) also dramatically effect the life of the battery.
The Volt has a controlled climate for its battery bank for this reason. The Leaf doesn’t, however.
Ed Morrissey on June 1, 2011 at 9:53 AM
The Volt website states that the car will use power from the charger to maintain battery temperature. If that is not available it will start the engine.
What happens if this is in an enclosed area like your garage?
mad scientist on June 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Buy me a beer or two, and it won’t be much of a secret. ;-) I should have written down my experiences at the time, but I recall enough to know I’d never do it again.
Ed Morrissey on June 1, 2011 at 1:41 PM
Translation: The accusations are true. But we’ve got some ass-covering excuses you need to hear.
Socratease on June 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM
Can I get my Volt in a nice Lemon Yellow color?
maineconservative on June 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM
With the way the electric power infrastructure is, who would trust such a car?
In NoVA we have had multiple days of power failures due to storms. I can remember one 4-day outage, one 3-day, a couple of 2-day ones and numerous 20-24 hour ones and I can’t even count the 4-6 hour ones all over the last 10 years. Now lets put a strain on that of, say, one electric car per every 10 households, drawing more continuous peak energy off the system, meaning it has to work at higher voltages for a longer period and generators have to operate longer at higher sustained capacity. What is that going to do for 30 year old transformers in the region? Or powerlines that haven’t been upgraded in at least 30 years? Ditto sub-stations.
You don’t need much maintenance on a power system, granted, but you do need some. The current grid is barely holding on as it is. And most of those power outages haven’t started in nice, bright, sunshine times but around 5-7pm with that notable 4 day one starting around 10pm.
Electric cars are a novelty, a solution in search of a problem. They aren’t ‘the future’ until ‘the future’ gets a MODERN power grid, not one designed and laid out in the 1950-60′s, with build-outs in the ’70s-’90s but no massive overhaul of the in-place physical plant since it was put down. The problem with the cyber revolution is that IT was starting to negatively impact the power situation in the late 90′s… and that is just PCs and your personal electronic devices.
Gasoline is here for at least 30 more years until whatever wants to replace it puts in place a brandy-new physical infrastructure to service whatever that replacement is and that includes electricity. Too bad we’re broke, huh?
ajacksonian on June 1, 2011 at 2:29 PM
I wonder how much battery life is being eaten up to control this climate?????
Actually, battery life is extended by the temperature management system. It makes sure that the battery pack never gets too hot or too cold, both of which would shorten the useable life of the batteries.
The battery conditioning and management system in the Volt is some pretty impressive engineering. Putting aside the politics and the economics of the situation, as a car, the Volt is quite an achievement.
rokemronnie on June 1, 2011 at 3:12 PM
It’s a zero-emissions vehicle….what, were you worried about a build-up of carbon monoxide???
runawayyyy on June 1, 2011 at 3:35 PM
What’s wrong with it? Well, how about “it’s not supposed to be a tax gift for *them*.
And you completely miss the point – the vehicle is *used* only *because* the dealer is scamming the rebate, and *that* is why the ‘purchaser’ isn’t able to get the rebate on their ‘used’ (30 miles or less is a demo, not a pre-owned car) vehicle.
It’s a scam, pure and simple, and some people had better fracking go to jail, damnit. I’m a bit tired of sh1tbirds stealing my tax money.
Midas on June 1, 2011 at 5:10 PM
Great, battery life is extended; at what cost?
I think the questioner perhaps meant ‘how much of the battery charge will be consumed’ to maintain the battery temp? How much of a full battery charge will be consumed by the battery climate technology for Volt owners in TX when it’s 100 degrees plus during the day when their car is parked in the parking lot, and in-car temps get to say… 140 degrees?
This crap is utterly ridiculous. Let’s marvel at what a wonderful feat of engineering this inefficient and expensive POS is.
Midas on June 1, 2011 at 5:15 PM
It’s nothing more than a bauble for wealthy liberal elites, to leave parked in their driveways and thereby demonstrate their moral superiority to the entire neighborhood.
slickwillie2001 on June 1, 2011 at 5:29 PM
there are so many aspects to this horrific example of mal-investment. I read a review (that wanted to be favorable) of the Leaf…extremely pathetic.
I mean very dangerous. The Yugo would be a much better investment for the US to make. The fact that “famous” people are signing up to support this just shows how imperiled this country is.
r keller on June 1, 2011 at 5:47 PM
The tax break is meant for the original purchaser of the car. If they’re the original purchaser of the car, then the tax break IS meant for them.
I didn’t miss any point. How is the deal scamming anyone? They’re not trying telling the purchaser of the used car that they can get a rebate.
Where is the scam? A potential purchaser can choose between buying a new Volt (down the street) that allows them to receive a $7,500 tax rebate or a used Volt that doesn’t allow them to receive a $7,500 tax rebate. I assume that this affects the price that the purchaser is willing to pay.
Again, nobody is being cheated and nobody is being scammed.
blink on June 1, 2011 at 9:40 PM
It’s a zero-emissions vehicle….what, were you worried about a build-up of carbon monoxide???
runawayyyy on June 1, 2011 at 3:35 PM
Your “zero emissions vehicle” can get you and your family very dead under the wrong conditions; how’s that for “impressive engineering”.
mad scientist on June 2, 2011 at 7:17 AM