He is risen!

I’m not saying a god doesn’t exist, just that all the ones that have been proposed so far aren’t it.

SauerKraut537 on April 24, 2011 at 10:11 PM

You cannot know for certain Christianity isn’t true, so may I suggest you say, “just that all the ones that have been proposed so far DON’T SEEM TO ME like they are it” or “don’t ring true TO ME.”

“Aren’t it” is an opinion, to which you are certainly entitled. But it is not a fact.

Just because you do not understand something (yet), doesn’t mean it isn’t true. No matter how smart a person you may be and no matter how many times you have read the Bible.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

We yearn to understand everything about God, but that is not possible right now. He is God. We aren’t.

It all seems tricky to you because you do not believe. I understand that. But be patient and sincerely and humbly persevere in pray for the gift of faith and be patient.

You don’t have to believe right now. But maybe if you stop denying so loudly, you might hear Him in the whispers and understand a little bit more.

May God bless you.

Elisa on April 25, 2011 at 8:54 PM

I think I read a quote from you saying there is no proof of the Resurrection.

That is true. No definitive proof, but lots of history from that time that points to it being true and common sense tells us that the first Christians would not act the way they did if they did not believe He rose and there is no other government or institution on earth other than the Church that has survived for 2,000 years with the same beliefs for all those years, built on the prophecy of the Jewish faith that was thousands of years before that. But it’s not enough for you. I understand.

I hesitate to bring up the Shroud of Turin. Because it is not proof of anything. But mostly because my faith does not rest on it and nobody’s faith should. (The Church has made no formal statement on the Shroud’s authenticity.) It could be disproven tomorrow. But I’ve followed it closely for over 30 years and the more it is investigated by science, the more intriguing it gets. Even the faulty carbon dating in the 1980’s, that has been dismissed as wrong, brought up some interesting facts.

But the most interesting thing to me about the Shroud is its blood type and the matching head cloth. And any honest and inquisitive person, including you, would have to be intrigued by this.

John 20:3-8: “So Peter and the other disciple went out and came to the tomb. They both ran, but the other disciple ran faster than Peter and arrived at the tomb first; he bent down and saw the burial cloths there, but did not go in. When Simon Peter arrived after him, he went into the tomb and saw the burial cloths there, and the cloth that had covered his head, not with the burial cloths but rolled up in a separate place. Then the other disciple also went in, the one who had arrived at the tomb first, and he saw and believed.”

The following are facts that anyone can look up for themselves.

Besides the Shroud of Turin in Italy, a Church in Oviedo, Spain has a small ancient head/face cloth (called the Sudarium), like the one mentioned in John’s Gospel. While the history of the Shroud can only be definitively traced to the 14th century, the head cloth has been in Spain since 631AD. Histories before that time cannot be independently confirmed.

The markings on these 2 cloths match up. But the most interesting thing to me is the blood types. Both clothes have human male blood samples.

Even though blood typing wasn’t discovered until the beginning of the 20th century, these 2 cloths (head cloth and Shroud) have the same exact blood type, even though they were separated from each other since at least the 7th century.

Also the shared blood type is AB, which is rare worldwide, but the highest concentration of people with it are found in northern Palestine.

Interesting, no? Hard to explain, no?

This link talks about the head cloth in Spain. It also talks about the similarities with the Shroud.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

It is from a very good website on the Shroud. Lots of scientific details.

http://www.shroud.com/menu.htm

Excerpt:
“From the composition of the main stains, it is evident that the man whose face the sudarium covered died in an upright position. The stains consist of one part blood and six parts fluid from a pleural oedema. This liquid collects in the lungs when a crucified person dies of asphyxiation, and if the body subsequently suffers jolting movements, can come out through the nostrils. These are in fact the main stains visible on the sudarium. . .

. . . Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.”

Elisa on April 26, 2011 at 12:57 AM

I don’t think you are really reading what I am saying, but instead are reading into it some other conversation you are having.

Again, I did not present the shroud of Turin as “EVIDENCE” of anything. I clearly said that and said that no one should base their faith on something like this. I presented it as something intriguing that any honest and inquisitive person would not dismiss.

I also did not question carbon dating itself in general. If you investigate further, you will see that virtually all scientists today dismiss the 1980’s carbon dating of the Shroud as false, because they took the sample from a corner which had later repair work done on it. In fact, the 3 labs had 3 different pieces of the sample and they each came up with 3 different date ranges that were close to each other, but varied by about half a century each.

Further analysis by scientists, who initially were not believers in the shroud’s authenticity, discovered that the repair work undid the threads and intricately weaved the new pieces into it. This is an ancient technique used to repair cloths. So each piece progressively had more newer cloth threads in it mixed with older cloth. The interesting part is that the lab with the piece furthest from the actual Shroud had the latest dating and the piece closest to the Shroud had the earliest dating. Which would be consistent with the authenticity of the Shroud.

And of course there could be bacterial residue that could affect dating.

When the initial faulty carbon dating results came out, I dismissed the Shroud as false and it did not bother me in the least. But later, the results were discovered to be false.

I think you need to investigate the Shroud and the head cloth in Spain more closely before you dismiss it. Not looking for proof of the resurrection, but to open your mind to something that has no known explanation, to give you pause and not dismiss the resurrection. To be open to its possibility. Again, not as proof.

Because if you are honest and inquisitive, you would concede these facts are interesting, that even though blood typing wasn’t discovered until the beginning of the 20th century, these 2 cloths (head cloth and Shroud) have the same exact blood type, even though they were separated from each other since at least the 7th century.

Also the shared blood type is AB, which is rare worldwide, but the highest concentration of people with it are found in northern Palestine.

The idea is not to be good because we “fear some god,” the Christian belief is to be good because we LOVE the one true God and we have love in our hearts for our neighbor. Fear can motivate one to be good and can progress someone to eventually truly love God, but on its own it is meaningless when it comes to salvation.

And what separates Christianity from all the other ancient and pagan religions is that in those religions man had to sacrifice himself for a god, but in Christianity God sacrifices Himself for the man He lovingly created. Christianity stands alone in this.

If you think that the complexity and vastness of the universe or the idea that there MAY be some form of life (even intelligent life) somewhere else is supposed to prove there is no God or make me doubt Christianity, I’m afraid it does the opposite. God created angels and God created humans (in His image and likeness.) The Bible doesn’t say that God did not create anything else. And if any other being He lovingly created needed salvation, then I imagine He would save them, as well. But perhaps they did not fall, such as the good angels who never sinned. This really isn’t hard. lol

And we do not “know” that life exists somewhere else. We think it MAY and it may only be one or two planets or none. You are taking leaps in your conclusions. Again, you have not proven Christianity is false and I am saying you cannot make definitive statements that it is false. All you can say is that you think it is false or that you are unconvinced to a great degree. And I haven’t tried to prove to you that it is true, because no person can prove God.

As to your other points.

If you can’t prove something is true or false, you do not “dismiss it,” but remain open to it’s possibility. Because it could be true. That is simple logic.

Some may not need a religion to know right from wrong, but how do you know where they got that inner knowing? Maybe it was written on their hearts directly from God or taught by a society made up of people who recognize God.

Aside from original sin, is there personal sin? Did you never sin, so you don’t need a Savior?

God having a chosen people did not mean He loved them more. It meant that they were the vehicle He used in His salvation plan to save all mankind. God used a man (Abraham) which then became a family, then a tribe, then a nation. From that nation came the Savior of all nations. There was no favoritism. In fact, the Jews were held to a higher standard because they had God’s truth revealed to them, which they repeatedly failed and were exiled and punished for and later reconciled with God after repentance. The Old Testament shows this repeatedly. Sin, exile, return. It is a microcosm of what all men do and still do today.

Your logic is faulty when you say that if God exists He is not a “Muslim, a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Jain.” There could very well be a belief system here on earth that is the fullness of revealed truth. What we know for sure is that the truth cannot be a combination of all the belief systems in the world, because they teach different things from each other. So the truth cannot contradict itself. No, it would have to be one particular belief system. Either one already known and revealed or one still unknown. And Christianity could very well be that true belief system. Because you have not disproved it.

And it God does not exist as Christianity says He does, then why are you telling me that I need to “behave in a good fashion?” How do you know this mysterious god you think exists wants us to be good? Maybe it doesn’t care if we are good or bad?

What revealed truth do you use as YOUR BASIS to say that this god wants me to be good?

I already said, if you reread what I wrote, I have already recognized the fact that all the major religions of the world from the earliest pagans share some truths with Christianity. Because they are the natural law written on the hearts of men by God. That is what the Church teaches. I love whatever nuggets of truth are in those religions and I pray that the Holy Spirit enlightens all men with the fullness of His truth.

God bless you and all reading here.

Elisa on April 26, 2011 at 10:44 AM

but why even mention it if not to elicit continued belief in it/Christianity?

The fact that scientists have no explanation for the Shroud and for its matching the head cloth in Spain is not proof of anything. I already said why I brought it up. Because it should give an honest and inquisitive person pause before they dismiss the resurrection. But, again, the Shroud could be disproven tomorrow, so it should not be a basis for faith. Even if science ever does prove it to be authentic beyond a doubt, because science can make mistakes. As of now, though, I brought up this scientific mystery to show that one should keep an open mind to the resurrection. But this is not evidence that proves anything.

Your pseudo scientific sleuthing with claims about the parts tested by the scientists in 1988 being “not part” of the real shroud is not pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes

lol it is not my sleuthing and it is not “pseudo science.” There have been peer reviews and real scientific research on this. There have been all sorts of tests done on the Shroud from scientists of various beliefs and no beliefs. Anyone can google it themselves if they like. I’m not quoting religious websites.

From your posts, it seems you have googled Wikipedia, but cherry picked what you wanted to quote. I would suggest anyone still reading here that is interested google it themselves and do a thorough investigation themselves.

Here are some excerpts, one immediately following something you posted here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

According to textile expert Mechthild Flury-Lemberg of Hamburg, a seam in the cloth corresponds to a fabric found only at the fortress of Masada near the Dead Sea, which dated to the 1st century. The weaving pattern, 3:1 twill, is consistent with first-century Syrian design, according to the appraisal of Gilbert Raes of the Ghent Institute of Textile Technology in Belgium. Flury-Lemberg stated, “The linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin does not display any weaving or sewing techniques which would speak against its origin as a high-quality product of the textile workers of the first century.”[67]

In 1999, Mark Guscin investigated the relationship between the shroud and the Sudarium of Oviedo, claimed as the cloth that covered the head of Jesus in the Gospel of John[20:6–7] when the empty tomb was discovered. The Sudarium is also reported to have type AB blood stains. Guscin concluded that the two cloths covered the same head at two distinct, but close moments of time. Avinoam Danin (see below) concurred with this analysis, adding that the pollen grains in the Sudarium match those of the shroud.[68] Skeptics criticize the polarized image overlay technique of Guscin and suggest that pollen from Jerusalem could have followed any number of paths to find its way to the sudarium.[69]

In 2002, Aldo Guerreschi and Michele Salcito argued that many of these marks on the fabric of the shroud stem from a much earlier time because the symmetries correspond more to the folding that would have been necessary to store the cloth in a clay jar (like cloth samples at Qumran) than to that necessary to store it in the reliquary that housed it in 1532.

Wikipedia on the carbon dating

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin

Once generally accepted by the scientific community[2] by those who consider the shroud to be inauthentic[3], and by some members of the Catholic Church,[4][5][6][7][8][9] these results have since been questioned in peer-reviewed journals by Raymond Rogers in Thermochimica Acta and by M.Sue Benford and Joseph G. Marino in Chemistry Today. Criticisms have been raised about aspects of the study as doubts were raised regarding the original nature of the sample that was taken for testing, not the quality of the radiocarbon testing itself. . . . .

More realistically, Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford proposed that the sampled area of the cloth may have been unoriginal (none of the sample contained a “stained” area), as almost 60% of the cloth is because of the progressive repairs throughout the centuries. Scholar Raymond Rogers argued, in a 2005 article[10], that the chemical analysis he performed confirmed this hypothesis – as the samples used in the carbon-dating show evident traces of tanning products, likely used by medieval weavers to match the colour of the original weave when performing repairs and backing the shroud for additional protection. Others have also presented supporting evidence in this direction.

Their peer review article also talked about the invisible reweaving technique from medieval times when patching the Shroud, which accounted for the later carbon dating. Where old threads are undone and rewoven with the threads from the newer patch.

I’ve read numerous things in secular newspapers over the years and seen shows on major networks, the BBC and the History Channel.

No scientist have ever proven the Shroud to be a fraud, as you say, and the vast majority of scientists find it an interesting mystery.

Here’s a 5 minute video from NBC’s Today show that I found quickly. I’m not going to waste my time finding everything online about this. There is a lot. Again, anyone can research this for themselves, they don’t have to take my word for it.
Facts are facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jekxRvP-688

You also posted what Wikipedia quoted from Calvin. Calvin must have been uniformed. Because there are early Christian legends about images of Christ on cloths, even a full body one and some of only the face, perhaps when the cloth was folded in a frame, which we know it was. But these early writings have never definitively been tied to the Shroud.

Also Calvin must not have known there was a head cloth in Spain. Yes, John’s Gospel said there was a cloth over the body and a head cloth. I’ve already quoted John’s Gospel: “saw the burial cloths there, and the cloth that had covered his head, not with the burial cloths but rolled up in a separate place.” The body cloth may be the Shroud in Turin and the head cloth may be the Sudariam in Oviedo, Spain.

The markings on these 2 cloths match up. But the most interesting thing to me is the blood types. Both clothes have human male blood samples.

Even though blood typing wasn’t discovered until the beginning of the 20th century, these 2 cloths (head cloth and Shroud) have the same exact blood type, even though they were separated from each other since at least the 7th century.

Also the shared blood type is AB, which is rare worldwide, but the highest concentration of people with it are found in northern Palestine.

Then you go and claim that the blood found on the cloth was type AB, and let everyone know how rare that blood type is… I take it you mention this because Jesus was a rare type of person? That because the blood was rare, and Jesus is rare, that that somehow lends more credence to the shroud?

LOL The point about AB being a rare blood type is that it is rare worldwide and rare in medieval Europe, where a skeptic would thing the Shroud was created. But, as I have clearly repeated here, the AB blood type is common in northern Palestine. Where did Jesus come from? Northern Palestine. Am I clear now? The point is that the blood on the Shroud is consistent with someone from Palestine, like Jesus. And not usually found anywhere else in the world.

And a medieval forger would not have known this because blood typing was only discovered in the 20th century.

Plus the forger would have had to have done this before the 7th century, even before medieval times, because the Sudarium has the same rare AB blood type of human male blood.

That is the point. A mysterious coincidence. Something to give a skeptic pause before dismissing the resurrection.

There are definitely false relics and true relics. So far, this one has not been proven a fraud by any scientist and most scientists find it intriguing.

Maybe it makes you feel better to believe that I only read religious things and have never critically examined my beliefs or that I never read contrary things. That way you can dismiss my faith or facts about the Shroud as provincial and ignorant.

As a matter of fact, my mother was not brought up with faith, because her father hated the Church and my grandmother scolded me for giving money to the Church. My father’s side in Spain was very religious though. Truth is important to me and if I thought what I believed was false, I would discard it. That’s just the way I’ve always been. At 6 years old, I pestered my mother for hours until she confirmed my suspicions that Santa didn’t exist. And I was happy to know the truth. Not a bit disappointed.

You don’t know me or what I’ve researched. That I came to a different conclusion than you did, doesn’t mean you’ve studied more about religion than I have or know more. It’s a bit arrogant and certainly condescending of you.

I don’t feel the need to go on Buddhist or atheist Hot Air threads or websites and tell people what they believe is a “joke.”

I am confident in my beliefs and I don’t need you to agree with me, so I don’t have to dismiss or belittle your beliefs or call them a “joke” or a “curse” or compare them with David Koresh’s followers.

Luckily, knowledge is to faith what light is to darkness. And the fact that you are reading my words right now means that you already have access to the greatest source of knowledge the world has ever known.

Faith IS the light in the darkness. And it is the greatest source of knowledge and wisdom I could ever hope for. I thank God for the gift of faith. I truly do understand that without it, belief can be difficult.

Real science never goes against my Catholic faith. Because they are both true. And truth will not contradict itself. Some scientists make mistakes and some people interpret the Bible or science incorrectly. But truth can be found in both.

But science will never and can never prove or disprove God or Christianity.

God bless you and everyone here. I will bow out of this discussion now. I think it’s getting repetitive and out of hand.

Elisa on April 27, 2011 at 3:07 AM