Detroit jury finds Terry Jones guilty of breach of peace for attempted protest outside Islamic center

posted at 8:25 pm on April 22, 2011 by Allahpundit

He wanted to protest outside the Islamic center in Dearborn but the city refused him a permit, fearful that some local Muslim might go nuts as a result. So they put him on trial, with the jury asked to determine what they thought his intent would be in holding the protest. If they thought his aim was peaceful, he’d be found not guilty; if they thought he meant to incite violence, then guilty as charged. Verdict: Guilty. Which means not only was this guy convicted of a speech crime he hadn’t yet committed (a.k.a. prior restraint), but it was only a crime in the first place because of the expected reaction from his opponents. In other words, it’s a de facto codification of the heckler’s veto.

The judge, likely recognizing the problems with the verdict, set Jones’s “peace bond” at all of $1. Jones refused to pay it on principle and was summarily carted off to jail. And now here we are:

The jury had been debating since 3:30 p.m .Thursday. The main issue of the trial was whether or not Jones’ main purpose was to say or do something that would incite violence. They came back with their verdict shortly after 6:30 p.m…

At the start of the trial, prosecutors presented their arguments before the jury. They argue that a protest outside the mosque in Dearborn would pose a significant safety issue. They argued that there is concern from authorities that someone may get hurt…

Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad also took the stand to testify in the case. Chief Haddad denied the permit request that would allow the protest to take place outside of the mosque. He testified that there were concerns over safety. Terry Jones also questioned Chief Haddad. He referred to a conversation he had with the Chief and asked him what his impression was after they had met. Chief Haddad responded that Jones was cordial and did not appear to be violent in nature.

In case you’re unclear on whom they expected violence from, a little clarity:

Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad testified today that there have been at least four serious threats made against Jones from metro Detroiters, arguing that his protest could lead to violence if allowed…

Speaking at a McDonald’s restaurant down the street from the courthouse, Jones — who’s defending himself — said he thought the proceedings are going well. And he said the government’s case was weak.

As he spoke, someone drove down Michigan Avenue yelling “Get out of Dearborn, you terrorist!”

I’m dying to hear constitutional lawyers weigh in on this, especially given the case’s superficial resemblance to the famous Skokie ruling. A state can criminalize speech that incites a riot, but those laws typically apply to incidents where a speaker is urging people on his own side to engage in violence. In order to convict him, you need to prove that he intended violence — which was what the Detroit jury looked at here — and also that violence, based on the circumstances, was imminent and likely. But even if you can prove both elements, prosecutors are typically limited to trying people after the protest has actually happened; finding a breach of the peace before the protest has occurred is a totally new one on me.

The other constitutional doctrine at play here, which I’ve written about before, is the “fighting words” exception to the First Amendment, which is an utter travesty and which has been used by the Supreme Court only sparingly over the years precisely because it’s so susceptible to abuse. The money quote from the famous Chaplinsky opinion:

There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or “fighting” words those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.

It’s the heckler’s veto, in other words. If you say something that’s so offensive to someone that, gosh darn it, they just can’t help but be violent in response, you can go to prison for it. Again, though: Typically you have to say something before you can be charged. Jones didn’t get a chance here, thanks to the state’s utter panic in shutting him down before one of the locals could run amok in outrage at whatever he had planned.

And so it came to be that this guy, a bona fide book-burner, is well on his way to free-speech martyrdom thanks to a state judicial system that’s (a) too stupid to realize that it’s brightening his spotlight by trying to silence him and (b) sufficiently concerned about Muslim violence itself that it ends up supporting part of his message. Wouldn’t surprise me if being sent to jail for trying to protest here was his goal all along.

Update: Semi-related: Remember the New Jersey transit worker whom Chris Christie fired for burning a Koran? He’s got his job back, along with $25,000 for his trouble. Quote: “This is the very essence of the First Amendment.”


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A sane government would back up the First Amendment with ICE and the National Guard.

Feedie on April 22, 2011 at 9:43 PM

A sane government would not be allowing these people to immigrate here in the first place.

Our government continues to pretend that Islam is just a religion; it is not. It is also a political, economic, and legal system that is incompatible with our own. Muslims do not believe in separation of church and state, or in freedom of speech, or freedom of religion, or that women and gays should have equal rights, or that moneylenders should be allowed to charge interest, etc.

When are we going to face the truth?

AZCoyote on April 22, 2011 at 9:57 PM

a march in Spain, say.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 9:52 PM

OH now we are talking about Spain.

Idiot.

CWforFreedom on April 22, 2011 at 9:58 PM

So now the first applies unless the ROP may find it offensive? Thank god for the second!

Viper1 on April 22, 2011 at 10:01 PM

I can see what Islam does and how it creates a culture that naturally gives rise to the Koranic duty of Jihad wherever it shows up.

That’s just not true of all Muslims

Yes actually it is.

Show me this Muslim culture where Jihad isn’t present? It is part and parcel of Islam as a religious duty.

Yes, there is a violent — and let’s agree very popular — strain of Islam that poses the dangers you mentioned. We should be careful about condemning something like a third of the population of the world based on their religion, though. Historically, that has led to some horrifying things.

That argument makes no sense. If it is true then its true. The consequences of it being true are another discussion.

You want to pretend something is false because the implications are scary?

Or attend a march in Spain, say.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 9:52 PM

Never said they couldn’t march, just that they should do it another day.

sharrukin on April 22, 2011 at 10:03 PM

Welcome to Sharia law everybody…

… Have fun with it!

/

Seven Percent Solution on April 22, 2011 at 10:23 PM

When are we going to face the truth?

AZCoyote on April 22, 2011 at 9:57 PM

Draft Allen West… He is the only politician I am aware of who truly ‘gets’ this and states it fearlessly!

Joy on April 22, 2011 at 10:24 PM

This has happened before.

It is happening now. And it will happen again.

It’s time, and past time, that we treat islam for what it is – a wholly hostile ideology fundamentally incompatible with American values – and move to protect ourselves.

Rebar on April 22, 2011 at 10:26 PM

Asking for permission was his mistake.
Did the teachers unions in Wisconsin ask for a permit ?
Does Al Sharpton ask for a permit?
Does the Westboro church ask for a permit ?
Did Cindy Sheehan ever ask for a permit….?

NeoKong on April 22, 2011 at 10:29 PM

Asking for permission was his mistake.

NeoKong on April 22, 2011 at 10:29 PM

Asking for permission was brilliant.

The man is in jail, for the sole reason that he asked for permission to exercise his free speech rights. What else could possibly highlight the issue more, that islam is a danger to America and our freedoms?

Rebar on April 22, 2011 at 10:37 PM

He free on bond that the Mayor claims he posted, why do I think he’s lying and someone else posted bond to try to avoid an unlawful detainment lawsuit, which should be filed regardless.

lowandslow on April 22, 2011 at 10:39 PM

It seems to me that becoming a Muslim in the USA might have some advantages. Could more people proclaim Islam as their faith to get the special benefits, protections and concessions outside the Constitution? I could see criminals flocking to it.

ReaganWasRight on April 22, 2011 at 11:02 PM

What if I can show I’m so offended by this whole discussion that I’m deciding to burn some computers down?

This makes the Human Rights Commissions travesties committed in Canada and elsewhere tame in comparison.

Drained Brain on April 22, 2011 at 11:08 PM

Yes actually it is.

Show me this Muslim culture where Jihad isn’t present? It is part and parcel of Islam as a religious duty.

First of all, Jihad means different things to different Muslims. Maybe some of them are misinterpreting their own scripture, but they don’t all believe in violently confronting threats to their beliefs.

I think you were implying that all Muslims can’t restrain themselves from bloodshed, like they’re just slaves to a robotic rage. If that were true, we’d be in a state of constant warfare with every living Muslim. But that’s not the case. Most Muslims, especially American Muslims, practice their religion peacefully.

That argument makes no sense. If it is true then its true. The consequences of it being true are another discussion.

You want to pretend something is false because the implications are scary?

I think it’s not true. I thought I made that clear.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 11:16 PM

Just to be clear, the case is a complete travesty. Weirdly, the article doesn’t mention the names of either the judge or the prosecutor. It’s almost like they asked to have them withheld out of embarrassment for trashing the constitution.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 11:18 PM

I could see criminals flocking to it.

ReaganWasRight on April 22, 2011 at 11:02 PM

Ummm.. they already do.

Estimates place the number of Muslim prison recruits at between 15-20% of the prison population.

It is estimated that of those who seek faith while imprisoned, about 80% come to Islam.

ButterflyDragon on April 22, 2011 at 11:24 PM

First of all, Jihad means different things to different Muslims. Maybe some of them are misinterpreting their own scripture, but they don’t all believe in violently confronting threats to their beliefs.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 11:16 PM

“It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land.” (Sura 8.67).

“If you do not go to war, He will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men.” (Sura 9.39)

“Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Sura 48.29)

“O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.” (Sura 5.51)

“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!’ That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah.” (Sura 8.12-13)

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people alive (former Muslims), Prophet had said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ”

Which parts did they misinterpret?

sharrukin on April 22, 2011 at 11:27 PM

It seems to me that becoming a Muslim in the USA might have some advantages. Could more people proclaim Islam as their faith to get the special benefits, protections and concessions outside the Constitution? I could see criminals flocking to it.

ReaganWasRight on April 22, 2011 at 11:02 PM

Doesn’t Obamacare include an exception to the mandate for muzzies?

slickwillie2001 on April 22, 2011 at 11:35 PM

Maybe some of them are misinterpreting their own scripture, but they don’t all believe in violently confronting threats to their beliefs.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 11:16 PM

Islam is the only belief, where the closer you practice it, the worse of a person you become, and the more violent and dangerous you are.

Rebar on April 22, 2011 at 11:38 PM

Doesn’t Obamacare include an exception to the mandate for muzzies?

slickwillie2001 on April 22, 2011 at 11:35 PM

Yes, because insurance is considered gambling.

batterup on April 22, 2011 at 11:41 PM

sharrukin on April 22, 2011 at 11:27 PM

I’m aware of the violent content in the Koran. Funny thing, a lot of Muslims aren’t. Or at least they find excuses not to take those parts literally. There are a lot of Muslims who are as good as any Christian you’ll meet, and as likely to be violent. Just saying, they don’t deserve to be lumped in with the bad one.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:07 AM

There are a lot of Muslims who are as good as any Christian you’ll meet, and as likely to be violent. Just saying, they don’t deserve to be lumped in with the bad one.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:07 AM

Deserves got nothing to do with it.

Nazi Germany had an ideology that led to violence. The fact that most Nazi’s were law abiding citizens who never harmed anyone didn’t alter that fact in the slightest.

Islam leads to women being mistreated but Muslim women are still devout Muslims and have children who don’t deserve what they are going to get.

You want to pretend that their culture and religion doesn’t have any implications beyond those of an individual and thats a silly fantasy.

We in the west believe certain things which create wealth and freedom within our nations. That is not an individual attribute but a societal one. That is true for us and it is true for Islam. There are implication to Islamic culture and beliefs that go beyond the individual.

sharrukin on April 23, 2011 at 12:17 AM

The jury had been debating since 3:30 p.m .Thursday. The main issue of the trial was whether or not Jones’ main purpose was to say or do something that would incite violence. They came back with their verdict shortly after 6:30 p.m…

The main issue of this trial is: is Detroit still in America? Or are they an Arab nation?

Cheif Haddad says it all, doesn’t it.

Oh, and Terry Jones is proving that he’s got more courage in his pinky finger than all of his critics combined. To want to protest in Detroit of all places takes some intestinal fortitude rarely seen. He should get together with that group of Christians who wanted to preach near the Muslim outdoor event last year. They’d get along great.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:17 AM

From the link:

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie had backed Fenton’s firing, saying the transit worker’s behavior was “unacceptable.”

One of the reasons Christie will never get one vote from me, unless it truly came down btw him and the devil (Obama), but what a waste he is.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:26 AM

OmahaConservative on April 22, 2011 at 8:31 PM

He is not a nutcase. He is a hero.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:27 AM

I’m aware of the violent content in the Koran. Funny thing, a lot of Muslims aren’t. Or at least they find excuses not to take those parts literally. There are a lot of Muslims who are as good as any Christian you’ll meet, and as likely to be violent. Just saying, they don’t deserve to be lumped in with the bad one.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:07 AM

I can’t hear them. Where are all of these good Muslims speaking out against the abomination of their religion?

Vince on April 23, 2011 at 12:34 AM

Joy on April 22, 2011 at 8:46 PM

Do the soldiers’ families murder those Westboro protestors? No? There’s the answer. And I’ll tell you something that just dawned on me: knowing that the only way to keep protestors away is if the other group threatens or engages in violence… well, that’s going to actually encourage violence. If our judicial system gives in to savages, then we will all have to become savages to be heard. Very scary.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:35 AM

I can’t hear them. Where are all of these good Muslims speaking out against the abomination of their religion?

Vince on April 23, 2011 at 12:34 AM

Yeah, you’re probably not going to find a lot of Muslims referring to their religion as an abomination. If you want an example of a Muslim who speaks out against the fundamentalists, though, off the top of my head, there was that young Pakistani woman smacking down an Imam on Arab television just a few weeks ago. It’s even on this site. There are a lot more like her.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:43 AM

If you want an example of a Muslim who speaks out against the fundamentalists, though, off the top of my head, there was that young Pakistani woman smacking down an Imam on Arab television just a few weeks ago. It’s even on this site. There are a lot more like her.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:43 AM

No actually there are not a lot more like her.

That’s why it was news.

sharrukin on April 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM

Is anybody else starting to get the strange feeling that this guy knows exactly what he is doing…and it may actually be good for the Constitution that he’s doing it?

I know it’s fashionable among the conservative blogosphere to preface every statement about him by saying he’s obviously a Christan religious fanatic and an attention-whore who should be ashamed of himself and isn’t helping anybody but himself…but he’s doing a pretty good job of taking a snapshot of state of ‘British like’ leftist PC right now that most bloggers could spend years explaining…and he’s doing it in a few days.

I don’t think he picked Detroit by accident and his willingness to go to jail over $1 pretty much shows he’s playing a serious game.

Time to give some credit and say he’s doing something useful here…now we know who (and more importantly, who doesn’t) get to exercise their first amendment rights in this country.

AUINSC on April 22, 2011 at 8:59 PM

“Starting to”? I’ve known he was a hero ever since I first learned of him in Sept. 2010. I was disgusted that the righty blogosphere, while supporting his rights, can never do so without casting aspersions first. Even staunch opponents of jihad, like Pam Geller, capitulated on this. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

And of course he chose Detroit (aka “Arabiatown”) on purpose. This man is one of our most courageous Americans today. He and Ann Barnhardt.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:47 AM

Dearbornistan…

d1carter on April 23, 2011 at 12:50 AM

Firefly_76 on April 22, 2011 at 9:04 PM

The ACLU has been right three times this week?! 1. Terry Joens, 2. the NJ transit worker, and 3. illegal cellphone searches. Hell must be frozen over.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:50 AM

Weirdly, the article doesn’t mention the names of either the judge or the prosecutor. It’s almost like they asked to have them withheld out of embarrassment for trashing the constitution.

RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 11:18 PM

Isn’t that convenient?

Ugly on April 23, 2011 at 12:52 AM

A travesty of justice and yet another unmistakeable marker on the path that this country has been taking for the last few years. Make no mistake, if allowed to continue unabated this country will be but a shell of its former self in our lifetimes. The reelection of Barack Hussein Obama, ergo; termed out with nothing to lose, and a contingent of Liberals in Congress large enough to enable him will definitely do it.

The quick steady pace and vast amount of destruction taking place in the United States from the inside out these last few years, and especially right now, is surreal.

FlatFoot on April 23, 2011 at 12:54 AM

canopfor on April 22, 2011 at 9:20 PM

So, Pam’s outraged, is she? Where the Hell was she in Sept. when he wanted to burn the Koran? Oh, yeah, she was calling him names and saying that it was unnecessary provocation. I quit reading her over that.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:57 AM

Simply put, silencing speech because someone will be “offended” is the same thing as banning free speech. The entire purpose of free speech is to protect our ability to defend our Rights when they are threatened. In this particular case, by violent Islamic extremists.

I can’t actually think of a more pertinent matter to be speaking about.

Utter Travesty.

KMC1 on April 23, 2011 at 12:57 AM

Wouldn’t surprise me if being sent to jail for trying to protest here was his goal all along.

Somebody has to do it. Somebody has to prove we still have the right to do what he is doing.

His motives don’t matter. IMHO, unless someone collects some damages, institutions will restrict more and more speech

We have to establish with the American public that the press is wrong, that citizens have the right to free speech and assembly and demonstrators should not have to post a peace bond because a police chief thinks someone will attack the demonstrators.

When Jones started this, the world slammed him. He was labeled public enemy number one because he dared to burn, and criticize a book. Does anyone doubt his life is threatened because he criticizes radical religious terrorism?

When Jones opened his mouth, the press attacked Jones for possiblly instigating muslim violence.

Yet, because Jones has not backed down, the islamic community here has reduced the noise. We can’t have two standards of free speech, one for muslims and one for everyone else. Or can we?

Jones won’t come out of this easy. He will be a marked man and many wimps here will blame him for insisting on having his rights

entagor on April 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM

The lesson is:

Threaten violence at any criticism and then you can silence that criticism.

CWforFreedom on April 22, 2011 at 9:21 PM

You put it much more succinctly than I did. Yes, this will encourage more violence! It will create more savages. It is dehumanizing.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM

It seems to me that becoming a Muslim in the USA might have some advantages. Could more people proclaim Islam as their faith to get the special benefits, protections and concessions outside the Constitution? I could see criminals flocking to it.

ReaganWasRight on April 22, 2011 at 11:02 PM

How about becoming a Spanish-speaking illegal alien Muslim???

Wouldn’t this be the trifecta of the privileged classes here??

Free health care and government benefits, freedom to ignore laws, freedom from all criticism….and the ability to sic the legal system on all those who might think bad thoughts or say things you don’t like in the future!!!!

/sarc>

landlines on April 23, 2011 at 12:59 AM

TheBigOldDog on April 22, 2011 at 9:32 PM

Yes. The Founders knew that if man had recource then he would act like man. Take that away, and man will turn animal.

This will not “keep peace” this will destroy it.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 1:07 AM

Firefly_76 on April 22, 2011 at 9:04 PM

The ACLU has been right three times this week?! 1. Terry Joens, 2. the NJ transit worker, and 3. illegal cellphone searches. Hell must be frozen over.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 12:50 AM

Murphy’s Law: “Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong

A corollary to Murphy’s Law is that you can’t screw up all the time…even if you try real hard!!! The ACLU was victimized by this corollary.

landlines on April 23, 2011 at 1:08 AM

Joy on April 22, 2011 at 10:24 PM

ITA.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 1:15 AM

It seems to me that becoming a Muslim in the USA might have some advantages. Could more people proclaim Islam as their faith to get the special benefits, protections and concessions outside the Constitution? I could see criminals flocking to it.

ReaganWasRight on April 22, 2011 at 11:02 PM

I think the Imans know it, too, and that’s why they preach so often in prisons. And why many prisoners convert to it.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 1:19 AM

No actually there are not a lot more like her.

That’s why it was news.

sharrukin on April 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM

It was unusual for Pakistan, which made it news. In another country, like Turkey or here, it wouldn’t be.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 1:35 AM

The fact that most Nazi’s were law abiding citizens who never harmed anyone didn’t alter that fact in the slightest.

sharrukin on April 23, 2011 at 12:17 AM

Since when is that a fact? I’ve seen this one used a lot, but please tell me about all the good Nazis who didn’t even follow orders.

On topic, this is insane. Refusing to give a permit is one thing, assuming it’s legal, but criminalizing his speech before he’s even been allowed to give it, without even analyzing its contents? No way this stands.

Esthier on April 23, 2011 at 2:47 AM

The US should pull out of Detroit. We have no business in that third-world city to begin with.

crosspatch on April 23, 2011 at 3:11 AM

Since when is that a fact? I’ve seen this one used a lot, but please tell me about all the good Nazis who didn’t even follow orders.

Esthier on April 23, 2011 at 2:47 AM

Muslims follow the dictates of Islam just as the Nazi’s followed the dictates of National Socialism. Some more than others.

sharrukin on April 23, 2011 at 3:20 AM

Liberals must defend Islam because the religion of “Peace” might turn violent and murder if one man says something that makes them sad inside.

Those other religions don’t need liberal protection because they don’t murder no matter how many liberals protest outside.

GardenGnome on April 23, 2011 at 7:43 AM

Stories like this just go to prove that liberals are cowards. Cowards. Cowards. Again, liberals are cowards. How can I say it any other way? Liberals are cowards. Period, end of story.

afotia on April 23, 2011 at 7:52 AM

Great summary of the legal framework, Allah. I had never heard of a concept of “fighting words”, and I find it very easy to completely ignore it in this case … maybe too easy.

That said:

1. Fire Haddad, who is an IslamoNazi symp and a sissy who coddles the Dearborn infestation of freak-ass Muslims, and has repeatedly erred in law enforcement of the side of the heckler’s veto. He’s unfit for government work; he should be a security guard somewhere where he can run his little Donut Fiefdom with impunity.

2. Jail the prosecutor and the judge for whatever charge amounts to corrupting our court system in grotesque violation of the constitution. Disbar these mental midgets.

3. Incite the Dearborn vermin any way that you wish and if they prove to be the anti-social, violent extremists that Dearborn fears, then crush them with the righteous boot of proper law enforcement. If they and murder, shoot them on sight, en masse.

If we had a functioning Justice Department and Homeland Security function, they would obviously regard these hair-trigger-Nazis as a great domestic danger. Alas, they almost surely both consider Terry Jones the greater threat.

Jaibones on April 23, 2011 at 8:13 AM

Doesn’t Obamacare include an exception to the mandate for muzzies?

slickwillie2001 on April 22, 2011 at 11:35 PM
Yes, because insurance is considered gambling.

batterup on April 22, 2011 at 11:41 PM

The Dems’ whole justification for the health care law was that we all use the health care system at some point in our lives, so we should all be required to help pay for it. But of course, we can’t require millions of Muslim Americans to pay, because that would violate their religious beliefs. Of course, Muslims still get to use the health care system, they just get to stick the rest of us with the bill, because of their religious beliefs. But don’t worry Americans, you’re still constitutionally entitled to equal protection of the law, it’s just that some Americans are now more equal than others.

AZCoyote on April 23, 2011 at 8:24 AM

They are making this idiot a first amendment martyr. This is protected 1st amendment speech, period. End of story. If you can burn an American flag, you certainly can burn the Koran.

neoavatara on April 22, 2011 at 8:43 PM

What makes him an “idiot”? He is quite literally single-handedly exposing the City of Dearborn as an anti-constitutional enclave hell-bent on coddling Islamic terrorists.

Doesn’t sound like an idiot to me.

Jaibones on April 23, 2011 at 8:24 AM

I hope Koran-burning becomes our new national pastime. The world would be a better place for it.

Bugler on April 23, 2011 at 8:26 AM

As a Michigander, the more important story here is that a city, within a county, within a state, conjured up their own ‘jury’ before the man even arrived. He had committed no crime, there were no jury of HIS peers (which apparently would have been made up of infidels). They just swift boated their own shariah compliant code of ethics apparently. It truly must be Dearbornistan. How in God’s name did they get away with this? Where is the outrage? I am putting my negative feelings about the pastor aside here, my feelings are not the issue. This is a very important story.

shar61 on April 23, 2011 at 8:31 AM

Mr. Jones exercised a great, non-violent, plan to get his point across and do us all a great service..Bringing attention to what MB intends for the rest of the nation.

Money can buy a lot of Politicians, Judges,jurors, etc. We need leaders with STRONG moral character and the common sense to do what is RIGHT for the country, not what will bring them larger Swiss accounts..

West / Cain / Palin / Ryan are all talking the talk and I believe any of these 4 will walk the walk..

What ideas do the HA’s have that the average PO’d US citizen could do to show our “disgust” with the Dearborn debacle? What will work to show the Dearborn Idiots (not the normal folks), our feelings about what they are trying to do?
I sent an e-mail to a Dearborn Political Hack a while back about an earlier event that restricted freedom of speech and expression and received a civil, but also pathetic
response.

I hope the latest trend from many of our current leaders as far as getting from the American Way continues.
If they PUSH too far – They will eventually be PUSHED back in an ugly way..

Panentheist on April 23, 2011 at 8:47 AM

Jaibones on April 23, 2011 at 8:13 AM

Will you run for President in ’12, please?

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 8:48 AM

I’m aware of the violent content in the Koran. Funny thing, a lot of Muslims aren’t. Or at least they find excuses not to take those parts literally. There are a lot of Muslims who are as good as any Christian you’ll meet, and as likely to be violent. Just saying, they don’t deserve to be lumped in with the bad one.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:07 AM

Are you saying the “good” Muslims are the ones who do not follow what their Holy Book says? How many Muslims would agree? What percent believe that they should not do as the Koran demands of Muslims?
10%? 20%? 30%? Just wondering the % of Muslims do not believe in the Koran? What % do I not lump in with the “bad” (true believers) ones?????

IowaWoman on April 23, 2011 at 9:08 AM

It too seems to me that many here are totally missing the point.

During the jury trial, Jones was forced to defend his religious beliefs.

At no time during the trial was he called upon to defend his alleged crime. i.e. what he did

Instead he was forced, by the Prosecution, to defend what he thought and believed.

Further, the same legal template applied to the events of yesterday can be applied to any attempt to hold a Tea Party rally in Dearborne.

As a Michigander I am enraged.

Browndog on April 23, 2011 at 9:10 AM

As a Michigander I am enraged.

Browndog on April 23, 2011 at 9:10 AM

As a American I am enraged! ACLU where are you? He needs to SUE/appeal anything to get this travesty to a higher court. Investigations into the judge, jury and prosecutor need to begin MONDAY!
P.S. not expecting much from ACLU

IowaWoman on April 23, 2011 at 9:23 AM

Asking for permission was brilliant.

The man is in jail, for the sole reason that he asked for permission to exercise his free speech rights. What else could possibly highlight the issue more, that islam is a danger to America and our freedoms?
Rebar on April 22, 2011 at 10:37 PM

Just so!

This Rev Terry Jones is gutsy, articulate and IMO is the kind of true American we could use more of.

Chessplayer on April 23, 2011 at 9:27 AM

If you want an example of a Muslim who speaks out against the fundamentalists, though, off the top of my head, there was that young Pakistani woman smacking down an Imam on Arab television just a few weeks ago. It’s even on this site. There are a lot more like her.

RightOFLeft on April 23, 2011 at 12:43 AM

Because an actress has a deeper understanding of Islam than an iman who has devoted his entire life to studying it? How did he arrive as such a terrible misunderstanding of islam? And if there are “a lot more like her” how is he important enough to warrant a religious office and TV appearance?

I could give a @#$% about what some actress says to an iman. What I want to see is imans giving verbal smackdowns — citing chapters and verses to back up their smackdowns — to the violent practitioners of Islam.

Their silence is deafening.

CJ on April 23, 2011 at 9:29 AM

I hope Koran-burning becomes our new national pastime. The world would be a better place for it.

Bugler on April 23, 2011 at 8:26 AM

Well in my household, I keep copy of the Koran with all it’s vile teachings right on the floor next to the toilet. It’s pages serve a singular purpose and are a bit rough on the soft ‘areas’ but it clearly makes up for it in the satisfaction I get watching the soiled pages of the islamic unholy book swirl down the bowl. Am I offending muslims out there? Frankly, I could give a rat’s ass. And please come and try to arrest me for doing an entirely lawful activity in the privacy of my own bathroom.

Lastly, the absurdity here is that this man got arrested, tried, AND convicted for the “activity” of “applying for a permit” to engage in an entirely lawful activity. He is going to win on appeal and the city of Dearborn is going to pay him a HUGH sum of money to settle his lawsuit.

Which line do I stand in so I can get arrested for seeking my official permit too?

Mahdi on April 23, 2011 at 9:34 AM

This will not “keep peace” this will destroy it.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 1:07 AM

Sooner or later it will. A house divide cannot stand. A society with two sets of laws cannot stand.

TheBigOldDog on April 23, 2011 at 9:36 AM

Another thought that comes to mind: Ronald “Kuffar” Haddad and his Useful Idiot criminal law supporters are apparently anti-religious bigots, as they themselves have defined the term. Apparently they view Dearborn Muslims — just as the O’Bozo administration views American blacks — as benighted, childlike imbeciles, incapable of resisting some genetic urge to murder innocent civilians in the name of their prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

I wonder if anyone has considered the crazy possibility that the Dearborn Islamo-Nazis have been assimilated into an actual civilization* to the degree that they might be capable of receiving the news that a Christian church minister is conducting a 14 person protest of something in Dearborn, without lighting buildings on fire or blowing themselves up in the local pizzeria?

*Detroit may not be your idea of “civilization”, but it’s probably a couple clicks up from Islamabad. Probably.

Jaibones on April 23, 2011 at 9:46 AM

Wow…I just watched the video of the local black vermin, the white lefty rent-a-mob, and the Islamo-scum minister screaming their heads off at the Jones guy. Shudder.

Notice that the police manhandle the Jones guy but never say a word to the dangerous crazies or inhibit their movement or behavior in any way, despite the obvious fact that they are the only danger present.

Heckler’s veto x 100.

Jaibones on April 23, 2011 at 9:58 AM

Peter King should support an NEA grant petition on behalf of Terry Jones.

Terp Mole on April 23, 2011 at 11:10 AM

Chief haddad?

Of course, an islamo monkey put in an upper echalon position by commie effing rats who seek to destroy our republic

and tax dollars going to build a war machine against us

so many politicians should be locked up and the key thrown away

and since I rarely if ever hear a word from a muslim that decries these actions I can only look at them as a threat to our lives

Sonosam on April 23, 2011 at 11:12 AM

So, Sharkey’s ruffians want to toss Farmer Cotton in the lockholes with Mayor Lotho and Lobelia?

Time to sound the Horn-cry of Buckland.

Terp Mole on April 23, 2011 at 11:29 AM

Somewhere, Orville Hubbard is weeping.

holygoat on April 23, 2011 at 11:34 AM

The citizens of Dearborn decided that speaking AGAINST Islamic terrorism could cause riots.

Does that mean that the residents of Dearborn SUPPORT Muslim terrorism?

New meme: American Muslims support terrorism, and if you speak out against it, they will riot and possibly kill you.

shibumi on April 23, 2011 at 11:36 AM

2 things from this clip:

they are asking people not to come here…

AND

…they want him to go to a “Free Speech” area

Where’s that?
A courtroom perhaps?

OkieDoc on April 23, 2011 at 11:39 AM

Don’t we allow the Phelps cult to do their evil thing at/near military funerals?

Sigh. I didn’t think there was a way I could be proud of Jones, but refusing to pay $1 “peace bond” on principle has done it for me.

Aquateen Hungerforce on April 23, 2011 at 12:25 PM

I live in the Detriot area and my work office is about 1/4 mile from the protest spot. I stayed home from work to avoid the problem.
My wife and I were out shopping yesterday when we saw a caravan of cops rolling by. We assumed they were are stand by for the verdict. She told me at about 10:00 AM that the court would hold Jones at least an hour after the start time of the protest and she was right.

mechkiller_k on April 23, 2011 at 12:50 PM

So we have in essence a monkey muzzy outpost on the continental US that is squatting and attempting to usurp our laws

they should be driven into the lake but I wouldn’t want to kill the fish from the pollution derived from their corpses

send them back

Restore our laws

Sonosam on April 23, 2011 at 12:52 PM

This would never have happened if he was going to burn a Bible outside of a church.

sharrukin on April 22, 2011 at 8:34 PM

It wouldn’t happen if an street preacher dragged a Book of Mormon on the ground either.

I’m not fan of people who desecrate other sacred religious texts but they have every right to do so.

As a result, I support this pastor 100%.

Conservative Samizdat on April 23, 2011 at 2:36 PM

It wouldn’t happen if an street preacher dragged a Book of Mormon on the ground either.

Well when I said church I meant Christian and I include Mormons in that. They consider themselves Christians I believe, and they certainly act that way.

I’m not fan of people who desecrate other sacred religious texts but they have every right to do so.

Conservative Samizdat on April 23, 2011 at 2:36 PM

I would agree with you if we were talking about Buddhists, Taoists, or what have you.

Islam and Aztecs not so much.

sharrukin on April 23, 2011 at 2:42 PM

Amazing. So in essence they are saying that Muslims are different than slain soldier’s families when it comes to what you’re allowed to say in their presence? Muslims, being thin-skinned and insecure, supposedly can’t handle any criticism of their religion, and you will go to jail before you even actually say anything to them. Soldiers’ families, on the other hand, are expected to be able to take Westboro’s inciteful, hate-filled crap AT THEIR SON’S FUNERAL without batting an eye.

Just so we’re clear on what Chief Haddad and the judge are saying here.

Chuckie on April 23, 2011 at 3:23 PM

Living in a suburb of Detroit I can tell you there was no way he was going to win. Dearborn is a Muslim state within the state of MI.

Bullhead on April 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM

U.S. Constitution – Article 4 Section 3

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

I first brought this issue up back in 2005. As Islam is antithetical to our Constitution and our Bill of Rights, where its laws are recognized or observed constitutes the emergence of an illegal “state” within a state.

Connie on April 23, 2011 at 6:06 PM

This is such a clear travesty of justice that it’s sure to be overturned by a successful lawsuit. It seems even more than a flagrant violation of 1st Amendment rights, it looks like a guilty verdict for a thought crime: intending to cause a riot – by just applying for protest permit. The jury decided they could read his mind for intentions without any physical evidence.

It’s one thing to charge someone for conspiring, say, to blow up something when one has some physical evidence like taped communications, explosive materials, etc. But according to the logic of this verdict anyone can be convicted of intending to publicly criticize any group or groups ideology if members of that group threaten violence because then that person must be intending that violence.

This trial should be condemned by all Americans as an outrage and the judge, jury and that awful prosecutor (with his implying that the 1st Amendment doesn’t cover this case) should be ashamed of themselves. Even American Muslims, if not totally driven insane by their absurd & violent cult, should condemn it.

Chessplayer on April 23, 2011 at 6:08 PM

Terp Mole on April 23, 2011 at 11:29 AM

AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!

That’s a part of the book I wish had made it into the film, love that part!

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 6:08 PM

This is what should have happened to the Nazis in Skokie. His purpose was nothing more than provocation and attention grabbing. His last stunt resulting deaths in Aghanistan, but he seems determined to keep it up until somebody here gets killed.

This is the essence of a public nuisance of the sort that the First Amendment was never intended to protect. This is where I part from libertarians. This is not an honest exercise of his freedom of religion nor freedom of speech. It’s more akin to shouting “Fire!” in a crowded building. I have the same objection to pornography, which SCOTUS has ruled is not protected by the First Amendment but can’t seem to be able to define or allow anyone else to.

flataffect on April 23, 2011 at 7:53 PM

Nah, it’s where you part ways with America.

As for the “fire in a theatre” cliche, it’s not illegal to shout “fire!” when there actually is a fire.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on April 23, 2011 at 8:13 PM

a monkey muzzy outpost

Someone’s gotta say it. I don’t think we should tolerate this kind of racism on HA. This language applied to other ethnic or religious groups has been considered ban-worthy.

Firefly_76 on April 23, 2011 at 8:17 PM

To RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 9:52 PM

You again talking the same bulls.it about the march in Spain . I explainded it already to you , but in case that someone could take RightOFLeft seriously I will explain it again .

About the march in Spain nobody was arrested or suffered any legal pusnishement for calling to a march against the catholic celebrations.They call for a march and it was just banned . Jones it seems he was punished by a judge for NO CRIME AT ALL.

The march in Spain was organized by leftist people that , in their own words , has their “model” in the burning of churches before and during the civil war in Spain.

The march was banned , not because the catholic people could made terribles things if they were offended , but because the court believes that the leftist that organized that march against the catholics are violent leftist and their objective was , at least , to disrupt the legitimate christian celebrations , but the fear of phisical attacks were too a real concern .

And the fear about the posibility of phisical attacks is justified , because just in a few weeks here in Spain there have been several burnings of churches amongst other acts of violences against the christians , and always were leftist people who act in a violent way , not catholics.

Some of those villente acts were even claimed by leftist feminist oganizations that try to burn a church and they almost got it . They claim it because they feel safe to do what they want under the socialist goverment we are suffering here in Spain ( not for much longer ).

So the court that banned the march was just protecting christians agaisnt those leftist who want to attack them , verbally or phisically .

It has nothing to do with the case of Jones and the violent muslims . The court that punished jones was just punishing the innocent one , because he could offend THE VIOLENT ONES that could go on rampage if they are just offended.

So RightOFLeft , you know you are liying if you compare one case to another .

If you want to talk about the march in Spain , you should explain why the leftist and the radical muslims are so violent against those who have legitimate beliefs , why are the left so close to the radical muslims , why are the left and the muslims always a source of violence against innocent people , why muslims and leftist love to burn churches … etc …

MiguelAngel on April 23, 2011 at 10:07 PM

Living in a suburb of Detroit I can tell you there was no way he was going to win. Dearborn is a Muslim state within the state of MI.

Bullhead on April 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM

I can tell you one thing about this…The Marines need to come home from places like Mosul and surround Dearborn. If there ever was a functioning terrorist center within the US…it’s there!

Twana on April 24, 2011 at 4:02 PM

I think you were implying that all Muslims can’t restrain themselves from bloodshed, like they’re just slaves to a robotic rage. If that were true, we’d be in a state of constant warfare with every living Muslim. But that’s not the case. Most Muslims, especially American Muslims, practice their religion peacefully.
That argument makes no sense. If it is true then its true. The consequences of it being true are another discussion.
You want to pretend something is false because the implications are scary?
I think it’s not true. I thought I made that clear.
RightOFLeft on April 22, 2011 at 11:16 PM

they are grasshoppers waiting to morph into a locust scourge

I have no doubt that given the right scenario of politics and population they will turn on our republic in a heartbeat

get these effing animals out

Sonosam on April 24, 2011 at 5:21 PM

Miss you Slobidan

Sonosam on April 24, 2011 at 5:22 PM

Odd, that Jones is banned from potentially upsetting people and Westboro does upset people and yet they can continue?

rgranger on April 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM

To rgranger on April 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM

The difference is that jones is upsetting the wrong kind of people.

You paid with your taxes for a crucifix inside a jar of urine and that was considered “a work of art” even if that could upset some people. But you can not burn a koran because it could upset ANOTHER GROUP of people .

Why are that group of people granted with special rights ? Why are that group of people granted with special protecion even if that protection is achieved by damaging other people rights ?

Political correctness is transforming the muslim population into the new “first class” citizens. Muslims should feel humiliated because of that , because they are treated as some kind of little children who reacts in a violent and dangerous way when they get upset .

But muslims did not feel bad about it , they seem to be OK when they are treated as a brainless violent mob uncapable of taking any criticism .
But the problem is that criticism is part of some fundamental rights , rights that are denied if that “special rights group” are upset …

So that is the reason because Jones have problems and those despicables SOB of westboro church are free to do what they want even if it is so miserable … they do it to non-muslim people.

MiguelAngel on April 24, 2011 at 7:59 PM

this is the end of the Constitution in Detroit

georgealbert on April 24, 2011 at 10:56 PM

It appears that Tom Cruise’s Minority Report movie was only a few years ahead of its time. Right there in Dearbornistan / Detroitistan.

Dasher on April 25, 2011 at 8:57 AM

It is legal to protest outside funerals of soldiers, but illegal to protest outside a mosque…

jeffn21 on April 25, 2011 at 9:55 AM

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