The obligatory “BYU suspends forward for having premarital sex” post
posted at 10:21 pm on March 3, 2011 by Allahpundit
I’m tempted to call this “controversial,” but … it really isn’t. Virtually no one disputes that they had to sanction him for breaking an honor code he agreed to. The quibble is over how long the suspension should be. BYU’s sentence: He’s done for the rest of the season, an astoundingly serious punishment given that they’re a top 10 team and a legit shot to win the tournament. With Davies, who led the team in rebounds, they were 27-2 and had recently spanked fourth-ranked San Diego State at San Diego. Last night, in their first game without him, they lost to an unranked New Mexico team — at home. By 18. This isn’t a case, in other words, of a mediocre program dumping a bench-warmer near the end of the season. This is a national-championship-caliber team likely throwing away its chance at glory to make a point about honor. Between the media’s Sheen-mania, the public’s perception of morals on American campuses, and the ethical vacuum that characterizes college sports, it’s no wonder a story about a power forward’s chastity seems so fascinating.
He’s already apologized to his teammates, but I’m still unclear on how the school found out. I won’t link it, but at least one gossip site claims a source close to Davies’s girlfriend says she’s not pregnant, so it’s not that. Maybe his conscience simply bothered him and he ‘fessed up?
Breaking on Hot Air
Report: Oversight on IRS targeting came from Washington all along
DOJ seized logs for five Fox News phones, possibly James Rosens’ parents’ house
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2
There’s no point in engaging with people who find themselves fixated on and hostile to the religious faiths of others, particularly people who call themselves Christians. So I’ll merely add my voice as a Roman Catholic speaking in solidarity with my LDS brothers and sisters who value chastity and honesty.
I’ve lived in Utah Valley for 6 months now and I can honestly say that the people in my ward are the nicest neighbors I’ve ever had in my entire life — which is not really surprising, but still very welcome.
Y-not on March 4, 2011 at 10:40 AM
Your false dichotomy is showing. A university without an honor code takes no position. Is it really so threatening to you that one college out of tens of thousands in the US should exist to provide this type of an environment if students should choose to take advantage of it?
Kataklysmic on March 4, 2011 at 10:40 AM
I don’t see where anyone said that; but they certainly CONDONE it, whether or not they encourage it.
Does it ever embarrass you a little, knowing everyone here thinks you’re not only a douche-bag, but also (given your ignorance of what a “nanny-state” is, and your poor reading comprehension) not very bright?
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM
I was tempted to go with a more cerebral argument like the classic “Oh Yeah, your mother wears army boots.” But was afraid it might go over the heads of some folks while also offending any female military in the audience.
OBQuiet on March 4, 2011 at 10:45 AM
Trust me, it was easy. Your post reveals you as a pathetic douche-bag who likes throwing cheap shots and pooping irrelevant comments about things you know nothing about.
I didn’t think you’d be able to comprehend your level of stupidity. I doubt it’s even possible to educate you about anything.
Eichendorff on March 4, 2011 at 10:48 AM
The student body of BYU is there because of the honor code. Not in spite of it. We all want to live the gospel. It is easier when those around you want this life style as well.
Not much has changed in human nature from the Old Testament times until now.
You serve whatever gods you choose… or whatever lifestyle you choose.
This is my choice and the the choice of my household.
petunia on March 4, 2011 at 10:55 AM
This teenager gambled and lost. The required pledge “to keep morality laws” is an inhuman gamble in itself because people cannot do it. That is why legalistic religions all become liar’s clubs. In Acts at the Jerusalem conference on the issue of ejecting Paul’s converts that were not Jews keeping Moses’s Law, Peter said “Why should we put this burden on the gentile’s necks that neither we nor our fathers were able to keep?” Good question, guys.
jimw on March 4, 2011 at 10:55 AM
He chose to attend BYU and agreed to follow their rules. He broke their rules and is suffering the consequences. It doesn’t matter whether the rules are silly or not.
katiejane on March 4, 2011 at 11:01 AM
Thanks above – for the link to Danny ainge. That is a great interview!
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 11:04 AM
Was just reading Paul’s version of that statement this morning, jimw. And I think you misunderstood it.
Yes, Mormons read the Bible regularly as well.
In fact, I think you need to go back through Romans and get reacquainted with Christian doctrine.
I signed on to the Honor code when I was at BYU, and I lived it. ‘Cause, you know, it really is possible to keep it zipped — and those who claim it is impossible are just looking to excuse their actions rather than (frankly) man up.
Note that the Honor Code does not require perfection in all things — just the easier ones (alcohol, tobacco, etc) and the really important ones (adultery, fornication, pornography). None of them are close to impossible. Avoiding pride — now, that would clean the school out completely. :)
I am aware that people have different strengths and weaknesses — but your insistence that “legalistic” religions are liar’s clubs is . . . odd. Nobody in the LDS faith (or, hopefully, any other) claims perfection, but they sure are there to make the efforts they can.
Yes, we believe in grace and works.
Prufrock on March 4, 2011 at 11:09 AM
For jimw (and for others who argue that “since it’s human nature to fall, why have rules?) it’s quite simple: Humans are a complex mix of natural and spiritual. Who is your master? Is it your body, with it’s urges and instincts? Or is it you, who can control your body?
The argument that no one can live up to “the rules” and thus we shouldn’t have any, is nothing more than saying we are nothing but animals and have no hope of being anything more.
That’s one reason I reject the conclusions of atheistic evolution: it necessarily leads to the conclusion that humans are just apes that can talk, or dolphins on land. Liberalism suffers from the same problem: species over individuals or families.
Yes, its true that no one can live up to all the rules, but that is what Christ is for. The whole point of Christ was to allow us to grow to the point where keeping the rules is who we are, not a burden. The Law of Moses had gotten ridiculous, but to say we don’t need rules says that we can’t improve our system.
Think of it this way: would the human race be better off if we all lived BYU’s Honor code, or would we be better off if we all lived like Northwestern and Cam Newton? I think it’s clear the answer is the former. That’s one reason I’m a conservative. Liberals say “anything goes” but that leads to chaos, horror, and misery. Just look at the great leap forward and Soviet Russia and the French Revolution. Conservatives (social conservatives) try to get the nature of man to change for the better. Better men & women don’t need to rely on the government. They manage for themselves and their families better. It’s all consistent.
Vanceone on March 4, 2011 at 11:15 AM
This is a lie. People can do it, I do it.
I have lived the chastity laws my entire life. My entire family lives this way and has for generations.
I don’t know how many students are at BYU now but it is thousands and thousands. And I know there are very very few who don’t live the standards. Young adults who choose to live within the boundaries that we believe are set by God.
In fact a few years ago the Church said we needed to “raise the bar” and instead of having more missionaries we needed to have missionaries who lived the standards better. So it became harder to qualify to be a missionary. This was really hard because lots of parents counted on missions to straighten their sons up. But no more. If you choose to live the world’s way you can’t serve a mission.
You don’t understand this life is it’s own reward. It is worth making any sacrifice to live this way.
Unless you have this understanding on your own terms it can’t be explained.
But living without extra-marital sex is possible it is desirable. It it better than any other way.
petunia on March 4, 2011 at 11:16 AM
Ridiculous, not only are people capable, they do it all the time. And what about people who have trouble with social interaction for whatever reason?
Cindy Munford on March 4, 2011 at 11:26 AM
If that is your only choice get married and divorced of course. The laws of God are clear. It isn’t your only choice however.
But people can have successful marriages even if they are not totally compatible. People did it for ages before divorce was common.
In fact it is very recent that the expectations of marriage are that your spouse fulfill all your dreams of perfection.
petunia on March 4, 2011 at 11:30 AM
Aren’t you missing your self-diddle time in mommy’s basement?
Or do you diddle yourself while you post at HA?
Bcs that would make sense, coming from the quality of your posts.
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 11:37 AM
I personally want to thank all current BYU students, BYU alumni and BYU defenders who have logged on and given their opinions and insight into this. I wish Drywall and his followers a good life and hope they come to understand that this life is only a training ground.
I don’t know if any of you have seen the movie “Forever Strong“. It’s a true story about the Highland, UT rugby team. If you have seen it, watch it again. If you haven’t you really need to watch it as it will give you a small glimpse of the BYU honor code.
DuctTapeMyBrain on March 4, 2011 at 11:40 AM
+10
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 11:42 AM
Proof: Ignorance lives.
Those who don’t believe that the LDS people are Christian either don’t know the LDS faith, don’t know the Bible or define Christianity so narrowly that only their sect can enter that private club.
I would happily put right2bright in his place; however, this is not the forum.
The Rock on March 4, 2011 at 11:44 AM
I wouldn’t bother. Back in 07-08 right2bright and I discussed religion quite extensively on this forum. She has real issues with concepts of prophets and flat out admitted to me that if she had been alive in Biblical times she wouldn’t have believed in those prophets then alive either. Classic case of worshipping dead prophets while stoning living ones.
Vanceone on March 4, 2011 at 11:50 AM
Rules are rules, I for one, am glad to see a school that has and manages a sports team rather than a sports team that has and manages a school.
Koa on March 4, 2011 at 11:50 AM
I find it pointless to talk with people who are so blatantly bigoted.
We LDS will always get $hit on like this.
I’m a convert & I will tell you that in my personal search for God, I have never met a more kindly, open, honest, & tolerant bunch that LDS people are.
Whatever you may think of the LDS religion, people. You cannot deny the FACT that the church does very good works.
You have only to look at their charity & church welfare programs to know they practice what they preach.
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 12:00 PM
Well said.
I wish our HS would do this.
A few years back a bunch of BBall boys were caught drinking in the hotel on a school sponsored music trip.
Bcs they were in the state finals line-up, which doesn’t happen too often here in our little rural area, the admin made them ‘apologize’ to the community in a letter.
These boys laughed their a$$e$ off at that.
And it was no punishment at all.
Meanwhile, the BBall boys that didn’t drink were taught that it doesn’t matter if you go by the rules or not.
I am still disgusted by our admin for this.
I despise them.
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 12:03 PM
I’d gently suggest that making a point about honor brings a kind of glory that no trophy in history could match.
There are plenty of athletic triumphs. Show me ANY other example of an organization or institution sticking by its values to this degree, this clearly and unequivocally, in this fashion.
It doesn’t matter what you or I think about their rules and standards. The point is that in this society that has embraced moral relativism and abandoned all standards, THIS school created standards, their own standards – and declared that they will enforce those standards, NO MATTER WHAT.
How wonderful. How rare. How glorious!
Threw away a chance at glory? You have it backwards, my friend. They just shrouded themselves in unforgettable glory.
10 years from now I won’t remember who won the national title this year. But I’ll remember BYU’s unflinching defense of their own values and standards.
So will you.
My only wish is that my child was born and old enough so that I could point to the newspaper and say “See? THIS is what glory means! This is courage. This is what a man does.”
Winning the national championship doesn’t even come close.
Professor Blather on March 4, 2011 at 12:14 PM
Actually it isn’t becuase people like me, who know many Mormons (including say a well known University President who once served as a Dean elsewhere) are woefully ignorant of the faith and therefore learn from your spirited defense. If that’s important to you (and I assume given the emphasis on Missionary work, it is) then don’t think for a second you’re wasting your time. Many of us are reading and learning w/o participating in the conversation.
TheBigOldDog on March 4, 2011 at 12:17 PM
Professor Blather, you gave me chills. Well said.
Thank you.
DuctTapeMyBrain on March 4, 2011 at 12:19 PM
How could you get this so entirely backwards?
YOU are the one espousing a liberal, childish, nanny-state moral relativism that is the exact opposite of conservative ideals in personal responsibility.
The man freely entered into an agreement with his university: to study there and play basketball there – and in exchange he would follow the honor code.
Prior to making that agreement, you’d be entirely right: if government, or a public state school, or the Moral Thought Police types attacked and judged him for his private sexual behavior, that would indeed be exactly what you describe.
But here, the only issue is, exactly, one of personal responsibility. He chose to agree to the Honor Code. He then chose to violate that code. As any conservative believes at his core, failure to be personally responsible carries consequences.
As it does here.
It both baffles me and amuses me that you can so entirely get the point backwards. How is that even possible?
And your attacks on Mormonism are, as others noted, just embarrassing for you. Whether Mormon beliefs are silly is completely irrelevant. In fact, whether the Honor Code is itself silly or stupid is entirely irrelevant.
The only issue is that the organization had a standard. The player freely agreed to abide by that standard. He chose not to and the standard is now being upheld.
Perfect conservatism in action. The perfect model example of personal responsibility being put into practice.
You could not even possibly be more wrong, or look more foolish.
And your bigotry is just the icing on the cake. Completely irrelevant, except to make you look even worse. Your epic logic fail is bad enough; your bigoted nastiness just makes it more embarrassing.
How entertaining! And what a wonderful contrast you provide between real conservative values and your own.
Professor Blather on March 4, 2011 at 12:36 PM
I see what you did there
:)
I’m not religious enough to know the Bible well, but I knew it rang a bell. Google works well for the uneducated like me:
Professor Blather on March 4, 2011 at 12:43 PM
Thank you, Professor Blather. :) I’ve always admired your posts. Usually you say something I’m thinking in a way that sounds much better than my own, for the most part.
As for your epic smackdown of Drywall, I know he won’t get the point. But thank you for your spirited defense of personal responsibility and how it works, in practice. Would that all could read it!
Vanceone on March 4, 2011 at 12:58 PM
Vanceone +1
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 1:05 PM
Professor Blather on March 4, 2011 at 12:36 PM
—–
omg you’re a professor. On the internet.
That this fool admitted to having consensual sex with another adult is entirely irrelevant.
My issue is with the code itself.
It is ludicrous that a university can dictate the sexual activity of its adult attendees.
It is also ludicrous to claim that any organization can make any rules it pleases.
The end.
Dave Rywall on March 4, 2011 at 1:35 PM
One can only hope!
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Drywall says it is “ludicrous” for any organization can make any rules it pleases. How, Drywall, do you square that with your incessant calls for as much government socialism as possible? What is socialism except demands to turn over money to someone else for their benefits?
What is Obamacare but rules telling an entire nation what choices to get healthcare? And if you don’t believe that sexual choices will be impacted, I have a bridge to sell you. With all the STD’s and the possibility of creating more burdens on the state (children) as defined by liberals, I cannot think of anything more to the point of healthcare than dictating the sexual activities of the citizens. But you don’t care. It just bothers you that Davies is more of a man than you can possibly dream of at night. So is Professor Blather. So, for that matter, is pond scum, because at least pond scum doesn’t think that the moss on the tree needs to contribute all of its clorophyll so the pond scum doesn’t have to work itself to sustain life.
Vanceone on March 4, 2011 at 1:40 PM
If any of you would like to see the outstanding young men and women that the Church and the families produce – this website shows them as they embark upon a mission.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=576&sid=14504817
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 1:53 PM
If any of you would like to see the outstanding young men and women that the Church and the families produce – this website shows them as they embark upon a mission.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=576&sid=14504817
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 1:53 PM
Thanks Bambi for posting that. It brought back a lot of memories.
And Vanceone – comparing Drywall to pond scum is pretty damning to pond scum. LOL
DuctTapeMyBrain on March 4, 2011 at 2:03 PM
The end.
Dave Rywall on March 4, 2011 at 1:35 PM
And yet, in a free society, strangely enough…they can.
Koa on March 4, 2011 at 2:05 PM
You have a very good point. Of course I know that.
But sometimes it’s easy to give up bcs these trolls are so obtuse on purpose, or perhaps bcs they really are that evil or stupid.
Ha ha.
And strangely enough, Drywall still doesn’t get it.
How interesting Drywall considers the rules that other people go by something that is being forced upon those who choose to join in the 1st place.
Perhaps he is so used to being forced into making decisions by his own govt that he fails to understand what a Democratic Republic really means.
Very sad.
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 2:20 PM
My error. I should proof read better. My post should have read “Those who don’t believe that the LDS people are NOT Christian either don’t know the LDS faith, don’t know the Bible or define Christianity so narrowly that only their sect can enter that private club.”
I am LDS and we are Christian. I omitted the word NOT from my post.
I am embarrassed about this error. If somebody said what my post said about to me, they would get a huge tongue lashing.
I am
The Rock on March 4, 2011 at 2:23 PM
Question: Mormons are prohibited from drinking tea or coffee. Are they also supposed to abstain from drinking anything that is caffeinated?
SC.Charlie on March 4, 2011 at 2:28 PM
Think your cute don’t you?
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 2:31 PM
you’re you’re you’re
Sorry!
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 2:31 PM
I’d hate to live in the tyrannical dystopia of your dreams. I believe in freedom. Freedom of an organization to decide its own rules; freedom of individuals to join that organization (and in doing so to agree to abide by its rules) or not to join the organization (and in not doing so being able to ignore those rules).
No one is dictating the sexual limitations of ANY adult; they’re merely dictating the requirements to attend Brigham Young University.
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 2:31 PM
A good question. Technically speaking, no. It’s not on the list of prohibited substances. That list is alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee, and drug use /abuse of prescription drugs.
But caffeine is a strange beast. It’s not healthy, really, so even though it’s not prohibited my personal view is it should not be consumed much. That said, in connection with medicine it can have an affect on headaches and such, so I will drink some occasionally. It’s one of those areas where each person decides for himself. I personally think that the person who can’t go a day without drinking ten jolt colas probably needs to think long and hard about it.
But no, it’s not prohibited to have a coke with your hamburger, if that’s what you are asking.
Vanceone on March 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM
Earlier leereyno asked “why would anyone CHOOSE to go to school there?”
Simple. Abstaining from alcohol, drugs, and premarital sex helps you avoid a lot of problems. You never have to worry about unwanted pregnancies, dealing with abortion, waking up in a stranger’s bed after a night of binge drinking, walking in on roommates doing dirty things, the emotional fallout of sleeping around, jail, or STDs – just to name a few things. I had a friend who went to a different college in Utah, and one night her roommate kicked her out of her room so two gay boys could have sex. I’m not saying that would never happen at BYU, but odds are, it wouldn’t.
The standards contained in the Honor Code are standards all children within the LDS church are raised with. I never had a problem living with the rules at BYU because they weren’t new to me. People may think that we LDS kids are repressed, controlled, or forced to adhere to these standards, but it all comes down to choice. With certain choices comes freedom. I was free to focus on my education at BYU – not parties, or pregnancy, or addictions to alcohol, etc. That freedom resulted in a double major and a double minor. I chose to go to BYU and to sign the Honor Code so I wouldn’t have to worry about things that detracted from my education. Not everybody understands that, but it felt like freedom to me.
jaclynjh on March 4, 2011 at 2:38 PM
Actually I didn’t notice.
I was actually agreeing with you.
I knew your intentions.
I hope you didn’t actually think I was dumping on you.
I was just pointing out my frustration in agreement with you.
No worries! ;)
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 2:40 PM
I really encourage my daughter to go.
But unfortunately she did not.
I think going there would have helped her avoid a lot of mistakes she has made.
Surrounding yourself with a moral atmosphere is not a bad thing.
Why surround yourself constantly with garbage when you don’t have to?
In the real world we see enough garbage.
Limiting your exposure, & your kids’ exposure, to these things is not a bad thing.
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 2:42 PM
Thank you for your answer. I have moderate blood pressure problems and stomach acid problems at times. I drink decaffeinated coffee and only an occasional Coca Cola or caffeinated soft drink.
SC.Charlie on March 4, 2011 at 2:45 PM
Amen. And it’s no wonder these types of churches are scandal-ridden. Nobody’s perfect.
Free Constitution on March 4, 2011 at 2:46 PM
So you can have multiple wives but can’t have sex with someone if you’re not married. Got it!
76United on March 4, 2011 at 3:15 PM
What an ignorant comment.
I’m not a polygamist, nor a Mormon. I disagree with all sorts of Mormon teachings, starting with the origins of the Book of Mormon. But even I know the church has not permitted polygamy since Utah was granted statehood; and even if it did, do you SERIOUSLY not see a difference between a committed relationship and a booty call? If not, then you need help.
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 3:30 PM
76United:
Polygamy has not been practiced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints since 1890 something. Might be good to keep abreast of current events.
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 3:31 PM
On the subject of whether Mormons are Christians, I’d like to offer a perspective that I hope will be helpful. I’m a non-Mormon (I happen to be Southern Baptist), which means I believe that, in general, where Mormons and Baptists disagree, the Mormons are wrong. If I didn’t think so, I’d be a Mormon, obviously. Just as obviously, those who would claim Mormons aren’t Christian believe Mormons are wrong. To each his own, it’s a free country, live and let live, etc.
But the question of whether Mormons are “Christian” to me is a bad question. There is no universally agreed-upon definition of “Christian”, so there is no objective way to say authoritatively if Joseph Smith, The Pope, Jerry Falwell, or anyone else is a Christian. “The question” has become a proxy for several different questions — and the answer to one of those other questions might be “yes” while the answer to another might be “no”.
But for those who would say Mormons are NOT Christians, I can explain their thinking, because I know quite a few such folks. For starters, please don’t think they are heaping derision on Mormons (at least in most cases). Almost universally they would agree that Mormons are good, moral people, sincere in their beliefs, and that “we [insert denomination here] ought to act more like them.”
However, there is a line of thinking (not totally without merit) that we don’t “believe in the same Jesus”, because we believe some quite different things ABOUT Jesus. If you believe in George Washington as the first General of the Revolutionary Army, first President of the U.S., and father of our country — and I believe in George Washington who played third base for the Virginia White Wigs cricket team and endorsed Acme wooden teeth — are we really believing in the same person? Of course Mormon beliefs and non-Mormon beliefs about Jesus are much, much closer than that; but the differences are still quite significant, and to many non-Mormons it amounts to “believing in a different Jesus”, ergo “not Christians.”
What really matters is not whether Mormons say they ARE Christians, or whether Baptists say Mormons are not; what really matters is whether we have salvation in Christ. And I’ll take issue with anyone who claims to have inside knowledge of just how precise our understanding must be, and just how accurate our command of the facts, to receive grace; or whether the real test is whether we (Mormon or not) recognize our own unworthiness, and place our faith in Christ as our “mediator between God and man.”
I say, whether to Mormon or Baptist or anyone else, seek by study of and meditation on the scriptures to know the truth; seek to do what is right; knowing that even your best is insufficient, place your faith in Christ, as you seek to have the clearest and most correct possible understanding of who is is; and then it’ll be up to God — not any Baptist, Lutheran, or Mormon — to decide.
And remember, “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.” Matthew 5:11
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 4:04 PM
Nice post, RegularJoe.
Y-not on March 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM
I doubt that…although the hieroglyphics of someone going to the bathroom is pretty strong evidence…
Pal, you may have a memory loss, I stated I wouldn’t believe any of the “prophets” from today, or any of the prophets from your sect in 1850.
However it may have been you, or at least one of your brothers, who stated that they would gladly give up their 14 year old daughter to the now modern prophets if he so called for that. I found that ludicrous.
That was regarding your founders who took child brides…
right2bright on March 4, 2011 at 4:28 PM
I think there is a really simple test to decide whether or not someone is a Christian, you will know them by their fruits.
Kristamatic on March 4, 2011 at 4:32 PM
Ah, right2bright is back again. Nice. Still spreading innuendos, falsehoods, and distortions. Still applying so called ‘modern’ standards to people from a different time. Still unable to explain how the same exact arguments she uses today would not be used against someone back then against Jesus, Moses, Hosea, Abraham, Issac and Jacob. For all of them had “moral” issues too. Jesus was born out of wedlock. Moses killed a man before becoming a prophet. Hosea married a whore. Abraham, Issac and Jacob all were polygamists. So was David, Solomon, etc.
Now, YOU may see some sort of consistency with venerating those dead people while stoning more recently dead people, but the rest of us see your pettiness. Or has it not reached your attention that, in fact, the Jews hurled the exact same type of charges against the early saints that you hurl against Mormons? Jesus was a fraud, a charlatan, and so were his followers! Blah blah blah. The proof, as they say, is in the fruits. And even you, right2bright, have been forced to admit that the fruits of “Mormonism” are pretty dang good. Why don’t you ignore the baseless attacks on character because last I checked, you aren’t the judge. God is. Instead, examine the fruits.
Islam has the same attacks hurled against Mohammed. To which they also have a defense: God told him. So, we check the fruits of Islam, which seem to be on the whole, barbaric. That’s how I know Islam (and liberalism!) are wrong: they debase mankind, enslave the soul, and promise misery. So I don’t have to resort to base attacks on Mohammed’s character; I don’t need to.
You, apparently, do. May I say that I do hope you are judged with the same judgment you show others.
Vanceone on March 4, 2011 at 4:44 PM
Mormon bashing still going strong I see.
I am LDS & Christ is my Savior.
I wonder what that makes me?
Badger40 on March 4, 2011 at 4:56 PM
RegularJoe
Maybe you can look at it this way.
Some people might believe that Bill Clinton was the greatest president since Washington. Others might think he was a scumbag and a moral reprobate. It’s not that his supporters and detractors think of two different people. They just think of the same person in different terms.
Latter-day Saints, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in Jesus Christ as he is described in the New Testament. The fact that they view him in different terms does not change the fact that they believe in the same being.
Those who attempt to exclude Latter-day Saints from Christianity have no authority to do so. They have no divine mandate to be the arbiters of who is Christian and who is not. They don’t have a copyright on the term Christian.
You will never hear the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attempt to exclude anybody from Christianity. The Church leaves it up to the individual to define his or her own belief system.
The vast majority of Latter-day Saint and Protestant beliefs about Christ are compatible. It is unfortunate that many discussions between them degenerate in to arguments very much like ones you would hear in the elementary schoolyard: “My dad can beat up your dad, yah, boo, sucks to you, nyahh, nyahh!”
It’s really high time for those kinds of Protestants to grow up and abandon their juvenile attitudes about Mormonism.
I am a Latter-day Saint. I am the world’s authority on what I believe. Since I believe in Christ and accept the Bible as the Word of God along with all that implies, I am a Christian. This is where the discussion ends. The Southern Baptists can say I’m not a Christian until they are blue in the face or until they burst all the blood vessels in their bodies. This will never change the eternal fact that I am a Christian: a follower of Christ.
Eichendorff on March 4, 2011 at 4:57 PM
Just a side note:
BYU is as conservative a Hillsdale Collage.
The Rock on March 4, 2011 at 5:00 PM
Perhaps I wasn’t clear (it wouldn’t be the first time), but I was very much attempting to make just this point. In addition, I was explaining what was behind the thinking of many of those who disagree. That I agree with some of their premises does not mean that I agree with their conclusion.
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 5:09 PM
I thought your point was perfectly clear.
Y-not on March 4, 2011 at 5:48 PM
I thought that was what you were trying to say. However, if you’ve been at hotair very long and have read some of the comments by your brothers and sisters you would see why some of us get our “knickers in a snit.” (My grandmother – oh my gosh)
It’s difficult to be so harshly judged and told we are not Christian because we don’t believe in the Nicaean(?) Creed. I would never judge a Baptist and say “you are not Christian.” I’m willing to let Christ judge me.
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 5:50 PM
I’m very much aware of the unkind things many non-Mormon believers say about Mormons, and I very much regret that they say them.
And yet I know these people, and they are not unkind people. Nor do they hate Mormons. They’re simply trying to be true to their own beliefs, and warn against what they (and, yes, I) believe to be wrong theology.
One example is that a Baptist would never say “I’m willing to let Christ judge me”; we’d say “I’m grateful that Christ has forgiven me.” There really is a difference — not total, but arguably significant — in how we view Jesus. How much does that matter to God? I don’t pretend to know.
Grace and peace, and a wonderful spring weekend to all. I’ve typed my last for today!
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 7:10 PM
Lovely, So let me as an LDS person having had “friends” that were concerned for my soul over my wrong theology. One week my friend is saying she “Accepts Jesus” and then next week talking about how she got drunk and sleeps with a boy she hardly knows, but hey..its all good Jesus Already forgave her.
Problem with that view and saying we are the wrong theology is that we see you all saying really nice words, but not putting serious thought into walking the walk.. really going to follow him as he ASKS and he SERIOUSLY means for you to do. You stick it in a drawer and drag it out for us not saying your words like you do.
So here it is. It isn’t any of your business but I will put it forth for you anyway. I struggle and he is with me as I struggle. I know this. He is proud that I not only believe in him as you say you do, but that I BELIEVE him and that it is just important to him that I continue to strive to live what he said to live.
What you say is what he told you to do, commanded you to live isn’t important. As long as you say some words you can stop. but doesn’t that make your example of living more like the wrong side?
Isn’t following him important to you?
Noelie on March 4, 2011 at 7:23 PM
I’m LDS, a graduate of BYU, and a former bishop. When you hear the word “bishop,” think “pastor.” A bishop serves the people in his ward or congregation, looking after their spiritual and temporal needs, and directing the work of the Church within a specified geographical area. His call to act in this capacity usually has a duration of a few years.
So here’s a bishop’s perspective on the BYU Honor Code. It is the policy of BYU that each student receive an endorsement from his or her ecclesiastical leader for each year they attend school. For LDS students, it comes from the bishop, and for non-LDS students (there are many), it comes from a local leader of the church they affiliate with.
Before each school year the students would meet with me individually, and we would review the Honor Code together. I would ask them questions to determine whether they understood the standards, and were currently living by them, and were committed to continue doing so. They each made this commitment freely. Then they signed their names to it, and so did I.
No one is perfect except Christ, and there were times I needed to work with a young person who had not lived up to the Honor Code. Mostly, this meant teaching them about the Atonement of Christ, and helping them to understand how it applies to them personally. True repentance takes time and effort, but the grace of the Savior is sufficient to heal our lives from the effects of sin. Then when it’s resolved, it’s resolved. It’s in the past, and no looking back.
I’m certain there is a bishop out there helping this young ball-player through this process right now. I have every confidence that he can get his life straightened out and get his feet back on the path. His parents, friends, and teammates are all there to help him, too.
I can tell you this: it wouldn’t have helped anything to have swept the situation under the rug and ignored it, or to have held him to a lower standard because he was an athlete. He’s going to come out of this a better man.
fenryys on March 4, 2011 at 7:51 PM
I say absolutely no such thing! FWIW, I don’t drink, don’t fool around, give generously, do mission work — I assure you, I’d fit right in with good Mormons, as far as my personal conduct. It is central to my belief that this is utterly, hopelessly, shamefully insignificant to my salvation, though. It is my RESPONSE to salvation — not the source of it. And the people I’m talking about are pretty much the same.
Sure, there are people who preach “easy Christianity.” Say the incantation and you can do anything you want and still go to heaven. I’m not arguing in favor of any of that; on the contrary, I speak frequently and strenuously against it. Salvation comes from giving ourselves to Christ; good moral behavior comes as a result of giving ourselves to Christ.
Now, that’s my belief. I’d die for your right to disagree, but it’s my belief. It’s really very similar to Mormon belief, but it’s not quite the same. I’m not trying to insult Mormon faith; I’m just telling you what I believe.
Is my belief Christianity? Depends who you ask. Is yours? Depends who you ask. Personally, I don’t care.
Notice that I haven’t called you a name. I haven’t challenged your status as a Christian. All I’ve done — before or now — is tell you what I believe about God and His salvation.
You and a couple of others, however, have implied all sorts of things about my beliefs — that I at LEAST condone sin, that I’m anti-Mormon.
I know you guys are discriminated against, and misunderstood, and I’m sorry about that. But now you’re doing it to me — a guy who has consistently (go back and read my comments on this very thread!) has your back, as far as being treated respectfully is concerned.
Mormon, Baptist, Catholic — we have to be learn to say “I think you’re wrong” without saying “I think you’re bad.”
RegularJoe on March 4, 2011 at 9:59 PM
fenryys on March 4, 2011 at 7:51 PM
Thanks Bishop for your explanation.
Regular Joe: Sorry if you feel we are doing the same thing to you that has been done to us. No one means to. We can all agree to disagree without being disagreeable. We are all trying to reach the same place,and we profess that we follow the teachings of Christ. I am still willing to have Christ judge me if I am following him and following his word, since that is what a lot of Southern Baptists are accusing me(us) of not doing. Any way it’s nice to have a civil discussion.
Bambi on March 4, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Sorry, I let my frustration get the best of me. All is forgiven. As I say, let’s just move forward saying “I think you’re wrong”, rather than “I think you’re bad.”
RegularJoe on March 5, 2011 at 12:04 AM
“This is a national-championship-caliber team likely throwing away its chance at glory to make a point about honor.”
Well at least they aren’t throwing away honor to make a point about glory.
Kevin M on March 5, 2011 at 3:30 AM
A friend of mine was a defensive back at BYU in the late 70′s and was kicked off the team for the same reason. His girlfriend felt guilty, confessed to a counselor and then they brought him in and questioned him. He lied about it, not realizing his girlfriend spilled the beans. He’s never seemed bitter or defensive about it, he just got busted doing something he wasn’t supposed to be doing.
peacenprosperity on March 5, 2011 at 9:57 AM
Here’s a link to BYU’s Honor Code.
I don’t think anyone who hasn’t gone to BYU and is participating in this discussion has read it.
There are alot of things I don’t like about the honor code and I think some of the rules are ridiculous. For example, I had a mohawk while attending BYU and that is against the honor code. ;)
That being said, I support the school for trying to create a campus that produces good, moral, upstanding college graduates who go out in to the world and become part of society.
Conservative Samizdat on March 5, 2011 at 12:29 PM
BYU 102
Wyoming 78
Bambi on March 5, 2011 at 7:17 PM
There are a number of Web sites that discuss the theological problems with Mormonism, including CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry).
I own a copy of “Gospel Principles,” a Mormon Sunday School book, which says, among other things, that “God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones…”
“Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother…If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are…”
“Throughout history, evil people have tried to destroy the work of God. This happened while the Apostles were still alive and supervising the young, growing Church…More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy…”
“In the Spring of 1820, one of the most important events in the history of the world occurred…Joseph Smith wanted to know which of all the churches was the true Church of Christ…The SAvior told him not to join any church because the true Church was not on the earth. He also said that the teachings of present churches were ‘an abomination in his sight’…The Lord had chosen a new prophet…Revelation continues to this day through each of his chosen prophets. Joseph was to be the one to help restore the true gospel of Jesus Christ…”
In other words, Mormonism considers itself to be the only true Christian religion.
Gospel Principles says that Mormons “will become gods” when they are “exalted” in the “celestial kingdom.” Genesis 3:5 disagrees.
KyMouse on March 6, 2011 at 8:07 AM
It does nothing of the sort. It says that Adam and Eve became “as gods, knowing good and evil” after they partook of the forbidden fruit. It does not even address the question of whether mortals can become like God.
There are, however, scriptures in the New Testament that very clearly suggest that we can become like God (Matt 5:48, John chapter 17 for starters).
Eichendorff on March 6, 2011 at 9:14 AM
That’s nothing new. Catholicism has considered itself the only true Christian religion for 1700 years.
Eichendorff on March 6, 2011 at 9:17 AM
Does it bother you that Judaism consider itself to be the only true religion?
Like Eichendorff, Catholics believe that they are the only true Christian faith.
I am not bothered by other religion’s claim that they are the only true faith. In fact, I expect religions to make that claim.
Conservative Samizdat on March 6, 2011 at 12:05 PM
Why would you belong to a church that doesn’t believe that?
Bambi on March 6, 2011 at 12:47 PM
The same New Mexico team that beat them by 9 earlier this year when he DID play. They so dominated them this game, it wouldn’t have mattered if he did play.
xblade on March 6, 2011 at 3:56 PM
The BYU Honor code:
In order for the things Rywall lists to have any effect, you have to have an honor code to rate them against.
As for the “sures” he lists, I couldn’t find them. Perhaps he’d share with us the circumstances under which BYU condoned cheating, plagiarism, or murder.
unclesmrgol on March 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM
Closer to 2000. After all, Jesus said there was only one Church, and those that claim there are many haven’t read Scripture very closely at all. Somebody’s gotta be right, and a whole bunch of others wrong.
unclesmrgol on March 6, 2011 at 6:02 PM
If you mean calling your founder a pedophile, and that Brigham Young also took child brides, as being wrong, then you and I differ.
If you think that I don’t like Mormon’s, then you are just playing the victim card.
Mormon’s are great people, their leaders are a little nutsy, kooky, and have a thing for young girls…and they seem to have some kind of seniority union thing going on.
My comment was based on the irony of a guy who takes girl brides, and having a school named after him, suspends someone for having pre-marital sex…stoop a couple of 14 & 15 year olds (of his 1/2 dozen underage wives, when he was 42 years old +) and be honored and made a “prophet”, but have pre-marital sex and you are shamed…I don’t get it. He was one of many who took child girl brides, those prophets were horny little dudes…but Mormon’s think that is okay, an honor.
right2bright on March 6, 2011 at 9:05 PM
Yeah, Badger, NotTooBright is back depositing anti-Mormon poop.
Eichendorff on March 6, 2011 at 9:19 PM
Pity… the thread was very nice until the “bright one” returned…
Can’t we all just get along?
Khun Joe on March 6, 2011 at 10:53 PM
And you don’t see the irony? A man with multiple wives, with multiple children as wives, a great University named after him and they are upset because a kid had pre-marital sex…you don’t see the irony in that?
I am trying to find an analogy, but they would be so strange…like the KKK kicking someone out because hers yelled at an Irishman…
right2bright on March 7, 2011 at 11:22 AM
Thanks for your remarks, I quoted only a portion, it is worth the full read.
scotash on March 7, 2011 at 12:30 PM
I never responded to anything you said on this thread at all.
Actually, I only saw a few bash posts, & never saw any of yours.
But I see you are more than willing to push your way into the insult arena here.
Honestly, you are one of the truly ugliest human beings I have ever talked to.
You very essence is absolutely ugly.
God help you.
Badger40 on March 7, 2011 at 9:32 PM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2