Walker sends police to find missing legislators

posted at 12:15 pm on February 18, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker has made the next move in the Battle of Mad Town:

According to the Wisconsin senate majority leader, the Governor’s office is sending out state troopers to go after Wisconsin’s Democratic Senate members to bring in a vote on Governor Walker’s budget bill which would dramatically limit government workers union’s ability to negotiate many of their benefits.

“They are prepared to dispatch state troopers to go out to some of the residences of some of the senators,” said Republican State Senator Scott Fitzgerald on Newsradio 620 WTMJ’s “Midday with Charlie Sykes.”

“We don’t know that everybody is out of state.  These troopers are going to go and try to escort these senators back to the chamber.”

Democrats did show up for the Assembly this morning on time, but that won’t make much difference.  Without the Senate, the legislature cannot act on any issue at all.  According to one legislator caught on tape running away from a Tea Party activist, Bob Jauch, none of them know for sure when they’ll come back:

Several Democratic senators declined to comment on how long they’d stay away from the Capitol. Sen. Bob Jauch (D-Poplar) said late Thursday the decision on when to return had not been made yet.

This may be an exercise in futility.  The budget is due by the end of June, which means that Walker has four months to get the Senate back to a quorum.  Can these legislators stand to stay outside of Wisconsin for that long?  Will their families put up with the nonsense for that long?  Will their constituents?

Walker isn’t kidding around.  And the longer Democrats refuse to participate in the legislative process, the more their petulance will erode their already-faltering standing among voters who take elections seriously.


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My sister was a teacher for 25 years, and I taught in a private girls school for years. Not all teachers are bad and not all teachers are good. Parents input really makes a difference. My sister was a public school teacher and didn’t have nearly as easy time as I did. I will say however, that the Catholic school I worked at actually cost much less per student then the public education system doled out to my sisters school. Something has to be done in the public sector to fix the failing public school system and the best way is to remove the Unions. There in lies the problem!

sandee on February 18, 2011 at 2:51 PM

I’ll take that as a ‘no’. LOL Have you homeschool parents ever tried to get such a thing? Seems to me you should be entitled to something. (and yes, I know the Unions and Dem leadership would probably have birds)

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 2:28 PM

In the beginning homeschool parents were too busy just fighting for the right to teach their own kids and choose their own curriculum. Mine are now in their twenties, and I’m not up too date on what’s going on.

INC on February 18, 2011 at 2:53 PM

There’s very few other professions where you are expected to be in early, leave late, and do hours of assignment grading/classroom preparation EVERY night.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:39 PM

Please just stop. My kids have early release twice a month due to “teacher planning”. One close friend that works in the office has to send a list of the teachers that sign out on “comp time” during these planning hours; let me clue you in: it’s most of the staff.

I spent many years in Milwaukee as a military recruiter and have several friends who are teachers. Milwaukee Public Schools are an abject failure and it can’t all be placed on the parents, although they own a lot of it. It’s not for lack of money though, we paid higher property taxes while living in Wisconsin than in any other place we’ve been stationed. A close friend that has been teaching for almost twenty years is upfront about how much she makes and how great her benefits and retirement plan is. It’s not a secret and the average Joe is a little sick of it.

I can understand people not liking to take paycuts or lose benefits they were promised. I was told as a military member that my family’s healthcare would be free and that I would be guaranteed free healthcare for life if I retired. Well guess what? It ain’t so. I haven’t recieved a cost of living payraise for the past two years either because it’s been determined that there has been no rise in the cost of living. Are you buying that? I’m not, but the bottom line is we all have to bite the bullet. We. Are. Broke. It’s seems the ones that enjoy the greatest entitlements are the ones that cry the loudest when they stand to lose them. I’d love to see the military unionize and threaten to strike……wait while I try to muster up some sympathy for the state employees in WI…..nope, I got nothing.

Jasech59 on February 18, 2011 at 2:54 PM

As a side note, the idea of having “competition” in the schools is pretty laughable too. The problem teachers have are the soci-economic issues that the kids bring to the schools, NOT the schools themselves. Charter schools only work because they recruit the cream of the crop student wise, they don’t take in the trouble students, and “fire” any of the students who perform poorly.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM

Nope. DC Vouchers.

My sister in law is a teacher in the LAUSD, and she will be retiring this year on a pension which is greater than her current take home pay. To hear her talk, there are a very large number of teachers at her school who can’t teach, but UTLA’s contract keeps them in the classroom. Before the 1994 earthquake here, she and another teacher banded together and sold t-shirts to fund classroom earthquake preparedness kits; the funds were confiscated by the principal of the school and used to buy a copying machine, which was placed in the “union room” at the school for use in union activities.

Don’t tell me teachers aren’t a big part of the problem — I know better.

Michelle Rhee:

Education is no different. We have textbook manufacturers, teachers’ unions, and even food vendors that work hard to dictate and determine policy. The public-employee unions in D.C., including the teachers’ union, spent huge sums of money to defeat Fenty. In fact, the new chapter president has said his No. 1 priority is job security for teachers, but there is no big organized interest group that defends and promotes the interests of children.

unclesmrgol on February 18, 2011 at 2:54 PM

There’s very few other professions where you are expected to be in early, leave late, and do hours of assignment grading/classroom preparation EVERY night.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:39 PM

ROFLMAO !!!
I guess my small-business-owner hubby belongs to one of those
‘very few other professions’ !!
I’d wager most SBOs do, too.
OMG, now you’re actually getting funny !!

pambi on February 18, 2011 at 3:04 PM

Rainsford wants us to believe that fully paid benefits and 3 months off every summer can’t be counted in any compensation comparative analysis.

Come on. We’re not stupid.

Missy on February 18, 2011 at 3:10 PM

I suppose when Obamacare debates come up, you support cutting Medicare reimbursement to doctors, and encourage them to “find a better paying profession”, right? Right?!

Besides, seeing the youth today, it looks like while their may be some stupid teachers, there are A LOT more stupid parents. It’s tough for a teacher to teach a kid whose parents refuse to put any effort towards their education/ common sense building.

The pictures, by the way, are pretty disgraceful, but I’m curious as to what’s on the other side of them/ if half of them even realized the signs they were handed by the union bosses. Our side gets upset when the MSM singles out signs in our crowds, so why are we doing it here?
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:46 PM

I will try to address them one by one…

The problem is government dictating the “right” payment and “right” services. Also if doctor’s feel they are not getting compensated enough, they should find a better paying profession. Or make a better mouse trap. If you don’t like something, don’t do it.

As for stupid parents – remember they pay teachers. They are the only reason teachers are even needed. So are you telling us we need better educators at home? Then why do we need teachers?

We are having fun. Regardless of the pictures, there is a lack of quality teachers. Sometime I wonder how they managed to even become teachers. That holds true for a majority of teachers. I will give you an example from today. My daughter came back from school and I asked her what they did in school. She told me they are learning about Lincoln. When I asked her what she learned, the only thing she could recall was some warped thing about civil war and name of Lincoln’s wife. So I have to spend the evening explaining to her about Lincoln and his work. Remember this is about one of the greatest President’s in our history. One would think if they don’t know enough they will at least read up before they start teaching kids.

Also the issue is union culture. Why should the dues be deducted automatically by the state? Why should the union not prove every year that they have the membership they claim every year?

Again why shouldn’t the absentee teachers be fired?

antisocial on February 18, 2011 at 3:14 PM

Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM
===============================================
Sorry, no sympathy. People who train to be physicians require college or university and medical school… 8 years… simply earn the privilege (understand that word?) to be able to start learning how to take care of patients.

Then they’ll start residency which can last as little as 3 years (if decide to practice a general field of medicine such as pediatrics, family medicine, or internal medicine) before being able to start to even earn a real paycheck.

During this 3 year period, though residents theoretically are limited to an 80 hour work week, for ~ $ 1500 (+/-after taxes)/2wks. So if we do the math…. $36,000 take home after taxes/yr div by 4160hr/yr ~ $ 8.65/hr. For 3 years…

Imagine now, unless you are independently wealthy, and have no loans, you only suffer for 3 years. But that is a liberal fantasy land, because most have a nice financial aid debt. Average $140,000 (http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/03/10/gvsc0310.htm). Of course it deferred through training…

Now, consider a teacher develops chest pain, goes to an ER, and needs an emergent cardiac catheterization… because if it doesn’t happen, the teacher may die. Well, that interventional cardiologist didn’t only go through the 3 years of internal medicine training, but an additional 3yrs of cardiology training, followed by an additional 1+(?) yrs of training. So this man or woman who came in to do a procedure which may save some of that teacher’s heart muscle went through an additional 6-7 years of training after medical school to be able to “practice medicine” in his/her specialty.

Loans are still waiting… and growing in interest.

I will not even try to speak for any surgeon out there… but I will tell you this… they sacrifice perhaps even up to 10 years of training depending upon the subspecialty… Not to even mention the intangible, personal costs. Their hourly wage is even lower, because I don’t know that any surgery program will even admit that their residents work less than 80hrs/week.

Finally… doctors need to pass a certification exams, go through continuing education, and pass recertification exams.

Doctors do this, because this is what they want to do.

*** Take home message… Never bitch about how long it takes to become a teacher. Shut up, budget, save your money, and plan ahead like the rest of us.
you will get no sympathy from that argument here.

Danny on February 18, 2011 at 3:15 PM

RaiNSFORD,
“The problem is the only talk of school reform we have goes like this: “CUT TEACHERS SALARIES! RAH RAH!”. ”

If you honestly believe that, you are completely clueless and should do a little reading before you continue this discussion. Comments such as that, and that teachers spend twice as much time outside the classroom working on their job as they spend in the classroom demonstrate that either you don’t know what you are talking about, or are afraid to honestly discuss the issues.

exhelodrvr on February 18, 2011 at 3:20 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:26 PM

Teachers teach because they want to help, not because of the salary.

I cannot imagine you were able to say this with a straight face given what is going on in Wisconsin right now. Schools have been shut down for days because the teachers didn’t like a potential contract change.

When was the last time we saw teachers riot over an education issue?

Sure, they’ll write letters to the editors and stand up on podiums with politicians for education issues, but, they didn’t get passionate until it was the money that was threatened.

I think it’s safe to say that, regardless of what they may tell themselves and others, they are in it for the money.

And, yes, if the money offered is not enough for them, they can feel free to move on.

If, as you say, this makes things worse, people will probably be willing to have taxes raised to pay teachers more to get better teachers.

It is not o.k. to hold your business hostage because you want to force other people to pay you more money. These highly educated people have failed to convince people that they are worth the money they are being paid and are, instead, resorting to mob tactics to try to get what they want. It’s childish and regardless of the amount of additional time in college that’s required for these folks, it does not give me much confidence that they have anything of value to provide the children of Wisconsin.

JadeNYU on February 18, 2011 at 3:20 PM

I suppose when Obamacare debates come up, you support cutting Medicare reimbursement to doctors, and encourage them to “find a better paying profession”, right? Right?!

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:46 PM
===============================================

Those physicians who supported Obamacare could work for free. I will not.

Being a physician provides several options… If you think that your comment frightens doctors, your wrong.

We may have to tolerate a shitty systems for a short while… until something new presents itself…

Doctors simply can just start asking patients to pay up front in cash… and le the patient wait until Medicare reimburses them and gives that money back to the patient.

- or -

Doctors can simply “not take anymore medicare patients”.

- or –

Doctors will work part time, earn less than the upper tax bracket… and enjoy more family time.

- or –

Those doctors who can… will retire.

- or –

Doctors can act as consultants.

** The point… teachers should learn to adapt within a Union where there is some accountability… and yes… always plan for a “Plan ‘B’”.

Again, its about time to start to live in the real world… Get off the university campus… The water’s fine…

Danny on February 18, 2011 at 3:23 PM

Rainsford

BTW, to use Christie’s terms…

What does your pay schedule and benefits have to do at all with the future of teaching children?

How do you justify failings schools?

Wait for it… is that cricket chirping I hear?

Danny on February 18, 2011 at 3:25 PM

Jasech59 on February 18, 2011 at 2:54 PM

Thanks for your service!

Being paid for off-hour work is essentially non-existent nowadays, and if it’s still legal in MI, it would be factored into their pay (which, as I’ve made quite clear, isn’t 86k+ a year). “Comp time” is more often used in school districts for things such as professional development seminars that occur over the summer or during school breaks, and has nothing to do with lesson planning which the teachers are expected to perform on their own time. I’ve never heard of this early release practice, but I’m using New York’s school systems as a metric (which is pretty standard). But you do realize that, thanks to the huge cuts made to special education budgets, large numbers of students are being mainstreamed into general ed classes. In a perfect world, you’d have a 4-1 student/teacher ratio per class in those situations, but many times you have one teacher with a mix of 20 regular ed and special needs students. This teacher not only needs to design a lesson plan every night for the general education students, but then has to custom tailor it to the special needs students. Have you ever designed a lesson plan before, and had to do it night after night, sometimes 2-3 times to tailor it to your different classes? It’s not done in a half hour, if that helps you understand.

I’m assuming your friend lives in WI, so I assume that she’s going to be making near the top-tier of the pay scale (which would be around 70k in take-home pay). Sure, that’s a decent salary, but for twenty years experience? If she’s been teaching that long, she also landed the job before it became as expensive to maintain and hold as it is today. New teachers have many new requirements placed on them that older teachers grandfathered into. Sure, a debt free, twenty year vet teacher with kids out of college can withstand a pay freeze, but what do you say to that 21 year old kid with 120k in student loans, whose breaking his back to find ANY sort of job in the field? “Sorry, but you’re going to have to take a pay cut before your career starts”? It goes back to the whole “do you want good teachers or poorly paid teachers” argument.

unclesmrgol on February 18, 2011 at 2:54 PM

I assume you did no reading on the voucher program before now. The final assessment showed that the actual grade increase of these students was minimal, if there was one at all. What did increase, however, was the attendance and graduation rates of the students. You should ask yourself why this is. The answer, quite simply, is that the parents who sought and obtained these vouchers are the ones who had an active role in their children’s lives. Once they win the lottery/scholarship for these schools, they make SURE their child attends. Even then, these private schools did nothing about test grades, they were only more forceful in making sure the student stayed in their seat (which starts at home). Read up on the general failings of the Harlem Children’s Zone for more information. It was hailed as something great by Obama, but it’s being proven that they will only accept the most academically gifted students. A fool can teach a child with a thirst for knowledge, but it’s not so easy to teach one who couldn’t care less. I feel like you didn’t read what I wrote, and didn’t read the article you linked here.

As far as LAUSD goes, it’s perhaps one of the “worst” districts in the country, but nothing you said besides an unprovable assumption points to any teacher wrong doing. It points to a problem with the administration. That’s my whole point. That’s where we need reform. Cutting teachers salaries won’t accomplish anything. Thanks for proving my point.

I’m not sure why you quoted Rhee here. She’s a disgraced former chancellor, in case you didn’t know. Someone who lied about her 3-year teaching performance, and then went on to marry an influential educator and do nothing but lead teaching workshops, using her apparent lack of experience as a guide. Even in the linked article (which I again assume you didn’t read) she talks about how she failed, and it was mostly because she ran the schools like an administrator, not like a teacher. Again, that’s my point. Thanks for playing.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 3:27 PM

There’s very few other professions where you are expected to be in early, leave late, and do hours of assignment grading/classroom preparation EVERY night.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:39 PM

You are only showing your ignorance. I have a family full of teachers and none of them work the schedule you describe. Not one of them. I have friends who are teachers, the same can be said for them. Besides, as someone else pointed out, they get their benefits all year long, even when they aren’t working.

There is no reason teachers can’t pay more toward their pension and health insurance. I’m already paying their salaries, why do I have to pay for their benefits also?

Unlike my profession, where during month-end close, year-end close, and budget season, I am expected to work whatever hours it takes to get things done. And I don’t get anything extra, not even comp time. Why do I do it? Because it’s my job to get the job done. If I don’t like it, I can change jobs.

These teachers have the same ability to find another job.

ladyingray on February 18, 2011 at 3:29 PM

He should send out the swat teams and K9 units.

tommer74 on February 18, 2011 at 3:33 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM

I think you are on the wrong blog. The web address you want is http://www.huffingtonpost.com.

Susanboo on February 18, 2011 at 3:43 PM

I’m not sure why you guys keep making failing arguments, then taunting me for not INSTANTLY RESPONDING TO YOU SPECIFICALLY. I’m a die hard conservative, 4 year in a row attendee of CPAC, but you guys are just way off the mark on this. I will disassemble your arguments one-by-one, so just politely wait your turn. Thanks! :)

pambi on February 18, 2011 at 3:04 PM

SBO aren’t even part of this debate. They aren’t even being counted in the salary comparisons, since they don’t earn a “wage”. If you own a business, you’re going to put as much effort into it as you can. This isn’t the same as being an employee.

Missy on February 18, 2011 at 3:10 PM

The fact that the average teacher shows up 45 minutes early, leaves up to 2 hours late (since parents don’t want to help students study, it falls on the teachers) and spend up to 2-3 hours a night lesson planning/grading more then makes up for the 2 and a half months of summer.

antisocial on February 18, 2011 at 3:14 PM

How is the federal government “dictating” to doctors any different then states “dictating” to teachers? We are talking about doctor reimbursement from a state/federal program! So you’re telling me that if Allah put up a post saying the fed’s were now forcing Medicare to be freely administered, you’d think to yourself “if those greedy doctors don’t like this, they should find another job!”?

I don’t understand the second paragraph here! I’m saying that if a parent isn’t going to force a child to go to skill, is going to be ok with a child becoming addicted to drugs before they learn chemistry, and aren’t going to do any home-education reinforcement, then you really can’t blame the schools for the failure of that student.

Again, if you’re claiming there’s a lack of quality teachers, shouldn’t we raise salaries to attract better ones? How does cutting salaries help, exactly?

Danny on February 18, 2011 at 3:15 PM

Someones getting nasty! Out of curiosity, once that surgeon is done with their training, what’s their salary? Somewhere in the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? Teachers take about 2~ less years on general education to get their degree then it takes for medical school graduation. Yes, residency factors in, but many teachers get stuck in permanent sub hell, and are getting paid close to minimum wage with no benefits for years. Until you get tenure, your pay will barley cover student loans (unlike residency, failing to find a job after graduating with a teaching degree won’t stop the creditors). Doctoring also has tremendous upward mobility. Teachers, after 20 years of experience and work, max out only slightly higher than their starting pay. Find me a doctor with any type of veterancy that shows such a small relative increase in pay.

Does it take more to become a doctor then it does to become a teacher? OF COURSE. I’m going to go ahead and award you the “straw-man of the topic” award for this post. Doctors require significantly more schooling, but received SIGNIFICANTLY more pay then a teacher. On the other hand, a teacher with only 2 years less classroom education then a fresh doctor will have take home pay EQUAL to the average worker. I assume your post was pointing out how unfair that is, and that you just got a little confused in your final thoughts. Again, thanks for playing.

exhelodrvr on February 18, 2011 at 3:20 PM

lolwut

JadeNYU on February 18, 2011 at 3:20 PM

So you’re saying that union walks outs, in general, should never have been allowed? What a fantastic world we’d live in if that was the case! I personally agree that these teachers shouldn’t be walking out, as education comes first, but I honestly can’t blame them. There’s rampant misinformation (Rush/FNC are trying to get you to believe that teachers in WI have 80k a year in take home pay), and if this cut goes through then even more will follow. School budgets have already been sliced and diced, and this is as far as they will allow. Again, your suggestion that we cut teacher salary, which will force out even more quality teachers, is self-defeating.

Danny on February 18, 2011 at 3:23 PM

All of your choices result in a society that is, in general, less well off. Looking at the data, I don’t think we need to cut medicare reimbursment, but the fact of the matter is that cutting it will result in there being less doctors/less quality doctors, especially caring for the worst-off Americans. This goes right into the public schools, where sure the teachers will survive, but you’ll have less quality ones, resulting in lower quality schools and education. The wealthy, who send their kids to expensive private schools, will do just fine, but it is the less well off who will suffer.

<3Christie<3 btw, but to answer the question:

Lower pay = lower quality teachers = lower quality education. It's the mantra of our conservative movement, isn't it? It's the justification for keeping taxes low. You can't pick and choose when to honor your principles.

As far as failing schools, again, a big factor is the administrations and the home life. In my area (long island), most of our schools are doing just fine, of course parents around here actually PARENT their children. And schools being run by people who have barley, if ever, taught in a public school before (Michelle Rhee above and NYC's new chancellor, for example) are a MASSIVE part of the problem. For the record, most superintendents and their assistances get paid salaries equal to the teaching staffs of entire schools. But let's cut those teachers salaries some more!

ladyingray on February 18, 2011 at 3:29 PM

Well, I’m sorry to inform you of this but it would appear as if your family are part of the ones giving the teaching profession a bad name. If a teacher isn’t putting in the amount of effort that’s to be expected, I would encourage everyone to redirect their attention at getting them fired. I’m sure you’ve notified their schools of the relatively little amount of work they put towards their profession, right? I mean come on, if you’re going to try to fix WI’s school systems, you should be willing to work on your own.

Again, teachers are already getting the same take home pay as the AVERAGE worker. They have the LARGEST insurance pool in the country. OF COURSE their benefits will be far superior.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM

Why does it cost so much to educate teachers?

equanimous on February 18, 2011 at 2:50 PM

Because they’re so damned stupid.

rayra on February 18, 2011 at 4:14 PM

Again, teachers are already getting the same take home pay as the AVERAGE worker. They have the LARGEST insurance pool in the country. OF COURSE their benefits will be far superior.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM

What are you talking about? I’m not discussing the level of their benefits, I’m talking about their contribution to those benefits. You know, the payroll deduction they have.

And what do you mean by ‘the LARGEST insurance pool in the country’? They aren’t federal employees, they aren’t state employees, they are local employees. Their pension may be a state pension, but not their insurance. That is handled at the local level.

And any teacher that works outside of their official work day (which is not 8 hours, btw), does so at their own choice. The same as I do. I do what I need to do to get the job done. Why should they be expected to do any less?

ladyingray on February 18, 2011 at 4:22 PM

Again, teachers are already getting the same take home pay as the AVERAGE worker. They have the LARGEST insurance pool in the country. OF COURSE their benefits will be far superior.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM

wrong

The teachers union here in Alaska “joined” forces with the State of Alaska Employees Union. ASEA. Teachers thought they were getting shafted and wanted what state workers got, until they realized that the state workers were getting lower quality insurance. OPPS! AND they had to contribute a portion that was 50% inclined employee based for retirement to a Tier group that is even worse than what they were originally contributing too, as well as put into another “retirement” in which they were not allowed to say a word about. Why? because they wanted this new union!

What a concept it is, when Sarah Palin had to take money from the State Coffer to PAY into the Tier 1 group for the “newly merged” because those who were Teachers for 20+ years were all of a sudden RETIRING! They didn’t put a dime into the new “Retirement” but expected everything to go according to what the “Union” promised.

Ain’t that a freaking B!tch for those who have to put into their tier group for retirement and were never asked if any State workers wanted to “merge”.. the Unions did it for them without thought, other than money motives.

Hmmmmmm give me a break.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 4:23 PM

Why should they be expected to do any less?

ladyingray on February 18, 2011 at 4:22 PM

entitlement mentality is bad. Now they are teaching our kids to be just like them.

Maybe Rainsford has been retired to long to realize it.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 4:24 PM

These salary and working benefits as compared to public averages are not the real problem. The real outrage that greedy government unions have perpetrated are their lucrative pensions, indexed and with rich health insurance packages.

They can’t really do a comparison to private industry wrt pension packages because in private industry that kind of a rich retirement package simply doesn’t exist for regular workers.

slickwillie2001 on February 18, 2011 at 4:32 PM

Look, it’s simple.
Have the WI state senate start passing a raft of other simple majority bills. Have them pass a bunch of GOP favs. Have them finally pass the statewide Shall Issue CCW bill while they are at it. DO THE BUSINESS OF THE PEOPLE.
If the Democrat-Socialist babies want to hide outside WI, LET THEM.
Call in the Guard. CLEAR the Capitol building and grounds. Push that mob of socialist scumbags back.

Then when the Democrat state senators come rushing back to further obstruct the People’s business on those other matters, you have the WI senate master at arms LOCK THEM IN THE CHAMBER and then call the union-busting vote, and any other votes they might flee.

Provide food & drink. Escort them to the restrooms UNDER ARMED GUARD. If they want to behave like marxist children, let them bear the price.

And I can’t type what I think ought to happen the next time Trumka or some other Union-Marxist a55hole gets up in front of the mob.

rayra on February 18, 2011 at 4:35 PM

Absolutely. A family member of mine was just killed by an IED in an ambush by democrats in Orlando. We really are in the midst of a real civil war. It’s just like Nam all over again. Or at least it sure feels like it.

RINO in Name Only on February 18, 2011 at 2:07 PM

You know, two or three years ago I would have laughed with you, but now? No. This President is … what was the quote I saw in comments somewhere today … “the President is fomenting the fight in Wisconsin” … and there’s a shift in the tone from past months of peaceful gatherings. Something is building and President Obama seems determined to push it until it breaks loose. People are on fire over this fight.

We have a President who has said to bring a gun and punish his enemies and the enemies he is talking about … that’s US. I never felt this hate from Clinton. I’ve never seen a President hate more than half of his own country in my lifetime.

What he’s doing to that state – he’s mobilized the Federal Government against a damned state governor. That’s not a joke. He – the President – is organizing demonstrations in one of his own states against an elected governor. This is Caligula\Nero crap we are seeing. This is what dictators do to stomp down problems in the far reaches of their empires.

Have YOU ever seen anything like this President before? Be honest. Since Lincoln have you ever seen a President mobilize against states like this?

He.is.crazy.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 4:36 PM

ladyingray on February 18, 2011 at 4:22 PM

The insurance bargaining is done through the union, remember?

And your argument is all wrong. The larger “benefit” number of teachers is mostly due to their defined retirement package, something EVERY public employee gets. If you have a problem with them in the first place, then that’s fine, but you should be arguing for the entire benefit system to be replaced then, instead of focusing on teachers. When you start calling for an across the board pay-cut to fire fighters, police officers, etc, then maybe I’ll take it a little more seriously. Besides, using a HA favorite argument, “if you’re not happy with your benefits, why don’t you enter the public sector!”?

And um, I’m arguing that teachers ARE expected to work outside of the school. If they aren’t I’m not sure how they can physically provide their students with a quality education. You’re the one who knows these deliquescent teachers, not me. Maybe you should ask them what the deal is.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 4:23 PM

Talking about entitlement mentality in Alaska, the state where every citizen gets free money from the state every year just for breathing? Really?

entitlement mentality is bad. Now they are teaching our kids to be just like them.

Maybe Rainsford has been retired to long to realize it.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 4:24 PM

The horror of expecting to keep a level of pay based of education history! The horror!

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:39 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:39 PM

Teachers knew that going in. Every job has its problems. My daughter is a Net-Work Administrator for DHS/Border Patrol. When the systems go down she goes in. She went from Dec 26 to Feb 9 without a day off because of network problems in 4 different sector sites. She was not responsible for any of the 4 sites but the sector headquarters knew she would respond and take care of the situation which she did. She is on call 24/7. My son is the senior programmer for a small company in Oklahoma. When the customers call in about the program not working he responds right away and goes and deals with the problem regardless of what time it is. So don’t cry to us about working outside of contract hours.

chemman on February 18, 2011 at 4:43 PM

Two relatives are teachers in Westchester County, New York.
Both are high school teachers.
One works for the Yonkers School District.
The other works for the Dobbs Ferry School District.
BOTH make over $125,000 a year.
Add in insurance and retirement costs and it totals about $150,000 a year, not to mention that a school year is only 10 months!

centre on February 18, 2011 at 4:43 PM

These salary and working benefits as compared to public averages are not the real problem. The real outrage that greedy government unions have perpetrated are their lucrative pensions, indexed and with rich health insurance packages.

They can’t really do a comparison to private industry wrt pension packages because in private industry that kind of a rich retirement package simply doesn’t exist for regular workers.

slickwillie2001 on February 18, 2011 at 4:32 PM

The problem isn’t going to be government provided pensions, the problem is the lack of them in the private sector (due to our friends, the die-hard capitalists!). People are living longer, but most don’t plan on working their entire lives. I agree that pensions are becoming unsustainable, but what happens if you don’t have a pension? Years ago, I did some work in financial advising. I found that the average family with 3-4 kids working a public sector job had no chance of retirement. Teacher’s weren’t in a great place, but their outlook, thanks to their defined benefits package, looked a lot better. The same held true for anyone in the public sector. The real problem isn’t “how do we take away their benefits”, it’s “how do we provide them to everyone else”. At the risk of sounding like a Kossak, while corporations switched to 401k plans, which were originally designed ONLY for the wealthy/high income among us, they took the money going to worker pensions and gave it to themselves. The typical worker finds themselves in a much worse off position, while corporate bonuses and salaries continue to explode, even after these same people are the ones who profited from the meltdown.

Instead of cheering for the destruction of public sector pensions, you should be out there arguing for the return of private sector pensions. Unless, of course, you’re happy with the average blue-collar worker continuing to get the shaft while we have wealthy “conservative party leaders” enjoy golf trips with their CEO pals.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:46 PM

You know? I don’t understand this back and forth about how much teachers are worth. You should make what the current market estimates you are worth. It’s not up to joe blow on the street, it’s up to the employer and if the employer low balls it then the employee works for someone else who pays a competitive wage based on the pool of skilled workers available. That’s it. If they don’t want to work for the state of Wisconsin then the door swings both ways. People trying to micromanage job descriptions on a blog make no sense to me. Is this a free market or isn’t it? THAT’S the issue.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 4:47 PM

rayra on February 18, 2011 at 4:35 PM

From what I understand is that they need 1 democrat to achieve a quorum. So apparently in Wisconsin a quorum is more than 50% + 1.

chemman on February 18, 2011 at 4:47 PM

Talking about entitlement mentality in Alaska, the state where every citizen gets free money from the state every year just for breathing? Really?

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:39 PM

ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME!

Alaskans OWN THE LAND YOU FREAKING MORON! Talk about someone who really has no freaking CLUE! The Government DOES NOT own the Land… and Neither does the freaking FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.. which means it is a ROYALTY check. You know, people who own land get paid for them to do things to it!

Jesus, talking about uneducated when you say that we get free money! HELLO I pay taxes on it you bumbling idiot! Talk about lacking in knowledge.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 4:53 PM

chemman on February 18, 2011 at 4:43 PM

I’m certainly not complaining about the hours, I was retorting the idea that teachers “ONLY” work 180 days a year (with the assumption being it’s about an 8~ hour day).

And the thing about your relatives is, unfortunately, wrong.
Here is a list of NY school districts by salary.These numbers include teachers who are also administrators/department chairs (which explain the high top-salaries). For your relatives to be making those salaries, they would have to be the top-paid teachers in their district. Sure, the average NYC metro teacher gets paid well, but I’m sure you appreciate how incredibly expensive the area is. Either way, you exaggerated. :/

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:58 PM

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 4:53 PM

And what exactly did you do to earn the land? In the 49 other states (and most of the developed world) land not owned by a private party is owned by the state/government, which uses the money to fund state expenses…. Like education. Maybe if Alaska wasn’t a socialist utopia where the “people owned the land”, you wouldn’t have an education budget problem!

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:01 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:01 PM

Whew. I’d stop talking at this point if I were you. Up until now I thought you were making a reasonable argument. I disagree with you, but you made sense.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:04 PM

Property rights. Little Pink House and all. Really. There’s also the American Indian thing going on that you need to read up on ..

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:06 PM

There’s very few other professions where you are expected to be in early, leave late, and do hours of assignment grading/classroom preparation EVERY night.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 2:39 PM

Please just stop.

Jasech59 on February 18, 2011 at 2:54 PM

I work at least twice an many hours as a teacher with no additional compensation, which is common in the IT industry. I have spend at least 2 summers working 80-90 hour weeks every week to get a project done. Sometimes I get a bonus because of it, sometimes I don’t. And I never get the time back. Every other week, I work all night doing a software release. Some of the developers I work with are on call 24/7, even when they aren’t at work because someone has to support the system.

Fortunately, I am now at a company that has gotten to a place where we no longer work the 80-90 hour weeks, but we’re still way over the hours any teacher works. There are no comp days for a couple of hours for conferences, no winter break, no spring break and no summer off. There’s no pension, no 401K matching and no substitutes for “sick” days. You work or you don’t have a job.

One of the biggest problem with most teachers is that they’ve never been outside the public school system. They go from elementary school to middle school to high school to college and then back to one of the others. Sure, they may work at McDonald’s or something during all that, but most of them have never had an outside career.

I am so thankful that my youngest is graduating from high school in May so that I can finally escape the public school system.

Common Sense on February 18, 2011 at 5:11 PM

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:04 PM

I’m just a little curious as to why the citizens of Texas don’t get a check in the mail from their oil reserves, but the citizens of Alaska do? The reason I mention it is because the funds raised from natural resources in other states go to fund things like education. In Alaska, it goes into your pocket. I’m not arguing whether it’s right or wrong, but I’m pretty sure that following the example of the rest of the country would plug your education budget gap real quick.

Alaska is quickly replacing New York and California as the land of entitlement in my eyes.

And of course I’m making sense. I’m as conservative as anyone else here, I’m just not blinded by empty rhetoric.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:13 PM

And what exactly did you do to earn the land? In the 49 other states (and most of the developed world) land not owned by a private party is owned by the state/government, which uses the money to fund state expenses…. Like education. Maybe if Alaska wasn’t a socialist utopia where the “people owned the land”, you wouldn’t have an education budget problem!

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:01 PM

How about you act like the Teachers you are protecting and look it up.

AKA.. Alaska State Constitution when Alaska became a State should work for you too Google it! Moron.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:14 PM

golf trips with their CEO pals.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:46 PM

Or perhaps the almost daily golfing outings Obama has with his pals(who probably are afraid not to let hims win),but that’s OK as he has little that’s pressing to do anyway except talk. As for Alaska, I was under the impression that the oil subsidies in Alaska had dried up or were close to it. The worth of teachers, is is neither less than or more than the worth of everyone else including the posters on this site. Yet their jobs are virtually secure unless they are serial killers or the like, they get a raise every year automatically and have come to expect it as their due. Most work about a 36 hour week and secondary teachers less than that as most beat the kids to the parking lot at the end of the school day. Are you a teacher? Union boss? Wisconsin Democrat? What? That you have a personal axe to grind is obvious. Out with it! What is it?

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:16 PM

Common Sense on February 18, 2011 at 5:11 PM

I never knew HA posters where as adept at taking things out of context as Kossaks are. Again, my point was that teachers work more then the 8 hour, 180 days a year that some people seem to suggest. Some people work more, some work less. That’s not my point.

And for the record, I’m not sure what going into the private sector has to do with anything if you plan on teaching.

You seem like you work hard, and I respect you for that, but good luck retiring without a pension or, at the very least, a 401k match (which still wouldn’t be enough). As a conservative, we don’t have to 100% agree with what the “party elite” shoves down our throats. 401ks are NOT enough to sustain the retirement of the average Joe. But we keep getting told this by the party elders, and you guys keep lapping it up. You work hard, and you earn your money, but 15 years from now when your backs going out and you can barley wake up, but have no retirement to speak of, no one is going to be there to help you. You’re getting screwed over every day you get up to work. So good for these teachers. I hope that their fight for their benefits encourages other workers, especially the conservative ones, to fight for their own. We defend the wealthy, we defend the small businesses, now let’s freaking defend the average worker.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:19 PM

As for Alaska, I was under the impression that the oil subsidies in Alaska had dried up or were close to it.
jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:16 PM

depends on who you talk too. But you are thinking the TransAlaska Pipeline.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:24 PM

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:14 PM

God what a nerve I hit here. Just because your state constitution says “we are going to take money that should be going to things like education and distribute it to the population to win votes” doesn’t make it right or acceptable. It’s called an ENTITLEMENT. I assume you’re from Alaska? How does it feel to receive the largest yearly ENTITLEMENT while your budget explodes? Physician, heal thyself!

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:16 PM

I never defended Obama or his pals. I have a problem with EVERYONE who “pals” up with those in power.

And what’s the problem with tenure? Tenure can be revoked for “cause” (if the teacher does something wrong). Without tenure, an administrator/union could come into a school and say “if you don’t tell your students that Obama is the second coming, you’re fire”. Tenure allows teachers to say no. It protects them from being pressured to teach a certain way. If a teacher, on the other hand, pressures students to believe something outside of their education parameters (Obama is the second coming!), they can have their tenure revoked for 1)promoting politics and 2) breaking for the course guide. Is it a perfect system? Of course not. But it’s better then not having it.

And again, the hours thing is just wrong. Do some teachers skimp out on work? Of course, those are the bad ones. Should they be the ones on the chopping blocks? Of course. But punishing all teachers in one swing isn’t the way to go.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:28 PM

God what a nerve I hit here. Just because your state constitution says “we are going to take money that should be going to things like education and distribute it to the population to win votes” doesn’t make it right or acceptable. It’s called an ENTITLEMENT. I assume you’re from Alaska? How does it feel to receive the largest yearly ENTITLEMENT while your budget explodes? Physician, heal thyself!

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:28 PM

Jealous much? Entitlement, if that is what you call it. But at least we can tell the Government in our State to but out and don’t touch OUR money.

I guess that is something you don’t understand… the government in general not touching YOUR money! Which includes telling our Legislative body if they touch the money via the mineral right of a State in which the land belongs to the people who occupy it, they can take the high road… well I guess you wouldn’t understand that, since it is obvious your State Leaders weren’t so smart about.

Keep trying Rain… the only entitlement I see is you trying to spin this into something that you can’t win.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:32 PM

Rainsford: We here all pretty much know who each other and how we think. You suddenly pop up here in a timely fashion to expound at length on the value of teachers co-incidentally with his mess in WI. Now, if you want to be taken seriously, you level with us some about who you are and where all your so called insider knowledge comes from. Unless and until that happens, your credibility(links and faint praise not withstanding)is zero.

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:34 PM

You seem like you work hard, and I respect you for that, but good luck retiring without a pension or, at the very least, a 401k match (which still wouldn’t be enough). As a conservative, we don’t have to 100% agree with what the “party elite” shoves down our throats. 401ks are NOT enough to sustain the retirement of the average Joe. But we keep getting told this by the party elders, and you guys keep lapping it up. You work hard, and you earn your money, but 15 years from now when your backs going out and you can barley wake up, but have no retirement to speak of, no one is going to be there to help you. You’re getting screwed over every day you get up to work. So good for these teachers. I hope that their fight for their benefits encourages other workers, especially the conservative ones, to fight for their own. We defend the wealthy, we defend the small businesses, now let’s freaking defend the average worker.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:19 PM

This assumes that people can’t put away money for retirement unless their employer does it for them. I’m going to have to disagree on this concept being set in concrete. Sure. A certain portion of the population will never save for retirement, that’s why they created Social Security.

You are all over the place arguing everything and nothing. I don’t even know how to adress your assumption that Texas and Alaska must somehow share the exact same contracts and laws with regard to state resources. Why would they? Idea begin at state level. If it fails, they can drop it or people leave the state. If it works other states can follow suit. If all states were the same then the system we have in place makes no sense. We did not invade Alaska and annex her resources. We DID kick Mexico the hell out of Texas. We paid a few million for Texas, California (a crap-assed deal if you ask me) and New Mexico. Texas was in no position to bargain and especially not for resources that had yet to be discovered. I’m sure there are some Texans wanting to renegotiate that deal even as we speak. Alaska? Not the same situation. When Puerto Rico becomes a State do you think it will be the same as Texas? No. We’ll be lucky if that deal doesn’t bankrupt the entire country.

You are in topics you are clearly not on top of in regard to “entitlements” and states rights. The teacher thing … you argue the worker’s lament well.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:38 PM

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:34 PM

probably an Ed let in.

either way, the guy is wrong. And it is too bad we do not have more teachers like you, jeanie, that have morals.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:38 PM

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:38 PM

BOR, where have you been? You need to come in more often, you are missed.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM

Rainsford, if you’re trying to justify High School Assistant principals making 7 figures, you are on a quest akin to Captain Ahab’s.

kingsjester on February 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM

I read HA every day, but I just can’t bring myself to debate some of these news stories lately … what’s going on takes my breath away. Thanks for the kind words. I am always around.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:44 PM

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:32 PM

Again, Alaskans took a natural resource that could have paid for state activity, and demanded it be directed into their own pockets. Your state suffers from an excess of greed, and that’s about it. You keep saying it’s “your” land and it’s “your” money. What have you done to earn it? What makes it yours? The fact that you live withen a geographic area that’s been designated by a deal between the Russian and US government? Did you help dig those wells? Did you help explore at all? No? So what right do you personally have to it? And you call yourself a conservative? Rofl.

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:34 PM

I’ve been posting/reading this blog since I was an undergraduate student (many, many years ago). I’m usually right on point with what’s being said, but you guys are just flat out wrong on this issue, and I can’t keep quiet about it. If you can prove me wrong, that cutting teacher pay will somehow benefit our society and students, then by all means prove me wrong. I have no intention of getting nasty or insulting anyone here, but can’t help it when people like upinak start launching personal attacks.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:38 PM

I’ve never met a single working class American who will be able to retire comfortably, at a reasonable age, without a defined benefits package. 401ks and the like were established as executive compensation plans, they can’t support an average families retirement (you need something on the order of over a million dollars saved up to retire at 65 and not be in danger of losing everything, sometimes even more. Show me THAT average worker). Acknowledging this huge problem like you do (NO ONE can LIVE on social security if they have any sort of obligation/don’t have a paid-off mortgage/family support), you still support taking this benefit AWAY from teachers (and I suspect all public employees to keep from being a hypocrite?)? Is your goal to create an America where we work until we die, so the upper crust of society can experience this new-found wealth? We defend their tax cuts, and they defend their right to leave the average Joe without a retirement. How does that work? I’m all for conservationism and capitalism, but some people are so blinded by ideology that they don’t see the freight train coming at them.

I’m all over the place because I’m specifically responding to peoples comments (to keep from running my posts even longer, I only quote the names). Considering I’m the only one not screaming “lynch the average teacher!”, I have my work cut out for me.

And I never said that Texas and Alaska SHOULD be the same. My buddy up there was complaining about education shortfalls in Alaska, and talked about how “entitled” the teachers there are. I responded by asking how he can possibly claim someone else is entitled, when his state is the only one that redirects what should be STATE gains into personal welfare checks. That set him off on a tizzy. If they discovered oil in upstate New York, the state profits on it would go to benefit the state. In Alaska, apparently “everyone owns everything”. Sure, it probablly appeased quite a few people, but it really flies in the face of our values, doesn’t it?

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:55 PM

Morals? That’s a bit obtuse as my years in education did earn me a partial teacher’s pension. My years in the private sector and in private junior colleges gave me a new perspective–a lesson in the real world. My pay was about two thirds of that in the schools, no medical benefits and a retirement plan that required me to work a long time before I was even eligible. No ‘prep’ periods(a teacher’s free period to prepare lessons and such), and one month off a year(still better than many)–no ten weeks with pay. A limited class load that also included running the college book store and being one of the day librarians. My days in the public school were like a vacation compared with this and I got a COLA and a step raise every year just for showing up. That was then and it’s even cushier now so don’t go wasting a lot of sympathy on these WI teachers. they can affore to give a little, it’s the unions who are afraid if they do the NEA or AFT(whichever they are) will lose clout.One thing though, to be perfectly fair, school discipline is a lot harder today–fear of law suits and weak administrators.

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:56 PM

Rainsford, if you’re trying to justify High School Assistant principals making 7 figures, you are on a quest akin to Captain Ahab’s.

kingsjester on February 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM

Did you actually read anything I wrote? In nearly every post I mentioned that the problem is the administrators, not the teachers. Instead of looking into reforming our schools, we want to cut cut cut. These districts, even in WI, have been sliced and diced for years. This particular battle is where they stood up and said “enough is enough”. Unfortunately, the deals where the unions compromised and gave in aren’t the ones we talk about.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:58 PM

Funny that Rainsford. I’ve been here a long time too and this is the first I’ve heard of you. I hope you won’t be offended if I say ‘baloney!”

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:58 PM

Honest-to-god, just look at this. This is nuts. This is President Obama and the Chicago way in our Nation’s Capitol going after the third in line. Obama has sent demonstrators to Boehner’s HOME.

I gotta say, Nixon just had people killed which was his mistake. Much better to send “ordinary citizens” to private homes and hope for a fire to break out. Nixon had balls but no guile. Obama has guile but no balls. Gutless wonder. And of course this happens RIGHT AFTER Boehner criticises Obama for coming down of the governor of Wisconsin.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:59 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:55 PM

it must be nice to be so entitled to think that you know everything about every state!

LMFAO!

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:59 PM

And of course this happens RIGHT AFTER Boehner criticises Obama for coming down of the governor of Wisconsin.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:59 PM

SEIU on call 24/7

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 6:02 PM

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 5:59 PM

Organizing for America, indeed.

kingsjester on February 18, 2011 at 6:03 PM

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:56 PM

The issue is that the schools have been giving up ground for years. If you’re in education, you know. Classes are being cut. Services are being cut, COLA has been frozen (for 3 years in WI, according to Megyn Kelly), Special Ed children are being streamlined faster then they should be, and classes are being packed. Through all this, teachers have kept going and accepted it. Now, they’ve finally said that you can’t keep cutting their field and not expect some push-back. It’s not like they haven’t already given stuff up. I don’t know where you live and teach/taught, but things are being cut everywhere, and this is the straw that broke their camels back.

Besides, teachers are such easy targets nowadays. Let’s take a look at police officer pensions (20 and done?) if we are going to attack teachers. What about the school administrators, who make FAR MORE than the teachers? I’d love to have a look at what other junk WI is paying for. How many sports stadiums get subsidized by the state, I wonder.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:04 PM

Where did Rainsford come from?
I don’t think I’ve seen her post before.

OmahaConservative on February 18, 2011 at 6:05 PM

Considering I’m the only one not screaming “lynch the average teacher!”, I have my work cut out for me.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:55 PM

Not exactly true. I haven’t said it and I disagree with any argument that questions whether they deserve what they earn. It’s not our business what they earn or if they deserve it. Their state and county employers should make those assessments like any employer.

I am the only member of my family that is NOT a teacher or employed by the education apparatus so I am like the Black Sheep of our clan, but I do appreciate the talent and skills of the job and what a good teachers goes through to stay current, traverse the dreadful politics that come with the job.

Alaska will work out their budget problems just as Wisconsin is trying to do and she will figure out how to pay for the services citizens need delivered or they won’t deliver them and the private sector will. Unless you live there, unless Federal tax dollars get involved in the mix, it ain’t your – or my business. However, whe the POTUS send demonstrators and launches an activist machine at a Federal level at one or more states to try to influence state level policies — why the hell does that not alarm you? Or does it? I can’t twll.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:07 PM

kingsjester on February 18, 2011 at 6:03 PM

Excellent, my friend.

OmahaConservative on February 18, 2011 at 6:08 PM

typo hell – my bad.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:08 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 5:13 PM

We DO !! We sign rights to our land for it, and in return are rewarded.
Sheesh… cap it.
————————
Google it! Moron. (said to Rainsford, by)
upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:14 PM

Y’know I was JUST thinking how SOLIDLY he depends on his ‘online facts’ to tell us that centre’s family can’t possibly be making $125K, “cuz, lookee right here.. stats for average pay are..” .. therefore centre is WRONG !
Good grief.

pambi on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 5:59 PM

I win.

Funny that Rainsford. I’ve been here a long time too and this is the first I’ve heard of you. I hope you won’t be offended if I say ‘baloney!”

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 5:58 PM

:P. You don’t have to believe me. I’m just arguing for the average teacher, and the average American. I love Rush, and I can barley tolerate Beck (although his over-the-top fear mongering is a bit much), but these are VERY wealthy men. They don’t have our interests at heart. We can be conservative, but we also have to look out for ourselves. Keeping corporate taxes low doesn’t mean anything if you have to bust your hump until you’re dead. Do you think the guy who inherits a hundred million dollars from his father is going to give two licks that you supported an end to the death tax?

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

OmahaConservative on February 18, 2011 at 6:08 PM

Thank you!

kingsjester on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

My wife is a special ed teacher with 16 years in. My sister in law is also a teacher with 17 years in.

Both are successful and hardworking. My wife has won awards at the district and state level (as well as being recognized and receiving grants from the federal level and even sports franchises).

Neither of them work the slog to which Rainsford is running out breath describing. They each work about 45 hours per week 9 months of the year. During the summer, they attend about 3 weeks of training at different times. My wife’s total pay package comes to about $65K. My SIL makes about $5K less, but does not have a Masters degree.

If changes were made so they had to contribute more to their medical and retirements, they would sigh and roll their eyes and get on with it. They would NOT leave their classrooms and make asses of themselves.

stvnscott on February 18, 2011 at 6:17 PM

I win.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

No, you don’t. You haven’t won anything. You haven’t looked up anything. You haven’t said anything that some other morons haven’t said. You just can’t seem to wrap your mind around it.

Not my problem, if this is an brain issue.

Alaska, when signed in as a State, had their elected leaders come to the conclussion that since we, as a State, had many natives as well as Alaskan Born americans, that is was a “good idea” to give THEM the rights to the land in which it would be governed via those elected for the betterment of the State.

Hmmm, is that brain wrapping yet?

After the “Discovery Well” was drilled in Prudhoe Bay and the idea of a pipeline to move the oil to areas in which it could profit the State… Gov Hammond had an inactment and a ammendment of the Constitution of Alaska that puts aside money via the royalties of the oil (and said any mineral) to go into a plan as for the people of alaska to use for their will, not for the States will as they were already making quite a bit of money via the oil and other minerals.

Which is the start of the PFD and how Royalties come into play.

I don’t expect you to understand, but do call me a liar when you obviously don’t know shiite.

So.. all in all… I win.

Thanks for playing.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 6:19 PM

They don’t have our interests at heart.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

Sorry, but that, right there, makes me question your judgement.
They do have our interests at heart, and encourage us to look out for ourselves.
And you can’t see that ?? Hmmm.
I guess they’re just so wealthy, that couldn’t be possible ?
oy

pambi on February 18, 2011 at 6:24 PM

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:07 PM

I’m not dictating anything. I’m just saying that it’s hypocritical to talk about entitlements and budget deficits when the deficits can be solved if you get rid of your entitlements. And the employers of the teachers are the citizens. If you have a situation like Jersey, where the population starts voting down school budgets left and right and the school board makes compromises, that’s fine in my book. Raiding pension funds, which is what’s happening (having workers pay more into their pensions so the state can pay that pension fund elsewhere, like into another unions pension) isn’t.

And do I agree with Obama’s political action team sending protesters down? Of course I don’t. My Facebook default is me and Newt from CPAC, for crying out loud. A good friend of mine actually got a response to a shouted-out comment from Bush back during 08′s speech (“I love you!”, “I love you too”), so I’m not terribly worried about defending my party credentials. Again, though, this comes down to me looking out for the benefits of the working class, and I’m just so upset to see you guys go after them so hard.

pambi on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

What? My point is that there’s nothing that makes it HIS land. It’s like saying something is MY medicare payment, when you’ve done nothing to earn it. Alaska can write it’s constitution however it wants, but don’t go crying about entitlements when your state is the leader in them.

As far as the salaries thing? I live in Nassau County, which is drive through Queens and the Bronx to get to Westchester, and I can tell you for a fact that the average teacher gets paid no where NEAR that number.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:28 PM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:09 PM

You make a lot of assumptions, almost all of which come down on the side that believes people are incapable of taking care of themselves and their own finances. You assume that wealthy people are all selfish and uncharitable. You argue a lot of generalities.

So let’s really get general here …

Most of these posts are arguing on the side of freedom. If that means freedom to fail or to be selfish then so be it. This is a nation of individuals. You can’t take care of everyone. You can’t slough off the cradle-to-the-grave responsibility of the individual and expect anything good to come of that abdication of self.

You are arguing “workers rights” at the expense of the tax paying citizens who will have to pay the bill with no say and no elected representative having a say on their behalf. They had an election. This is what they voted for in that state. If this legislation turns around and bites them in the ass because of a teacher exodus then they will have to address that. It’s a job. It is just a job. That job has a dollar value attached based on the market. Unions should not have the power to pervert the market. Teachers are not slaves. They can choose other professions.

This entire incident is not really about “teachers”. It about unions vs the real working class schlubs who are being forced to shoulder the cost of a service divorced from all reality. Shake off the victim cloak and look at what is actually happening in Wisconsin.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:30 PM

You’re kind a weird brand of conservative, actually. like … David Frum or … well … I can’t really tell. You definitely haven’t argued any conservative ideals in this thread that I can see.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:36 PM

You’re kind a weird brand of conservative, actually. like … David Frum or … well … I can’t really tell. You definitely haven’t argued any conservative ideals in this thread that I can see.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:36 PM

+++1

OmahaConservative on February 18, 2011 at 6:41 PM

stvnscott on February 18, 2011 at 6:17 PM

The difference between putting in the hours I describe, and the hours you describe, is whether or not you want to phone it in or actually make a difference. Take a look at what NYC’s public schools have to deal with, then tell me you can get away with 45 hours a week. In any case, God Bless your wife. Being able to teach Spec Ed should qualify you for sainthood.

But the problem in WI isn’t just about rolling their eyes. If you read any article that doesn’t keep mentioning “Hussein” in it, you’ll see that the WI teachers union has been rolling over for years. It’s being mis-characterized by our media to earn some cheap-shots at the unions, all to the detriment of the average WI teacher.

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 6:19 PM

That’s all fine and dandy, but you still didn’t tell me what you did to EARN the right to those royalties, aside from breathing. I could honestly care less what Alaska does with it’s money (it’s one of the few places on Earth that I’d never want to visit), my problem is on you getting smug over “teacher entitlements”, while happily accepting your own. If you truly believed in supporting a balanced budget at the cost of entitlements, like we are pressuring the GOP to do, then you would admit that the largest, and most unwarranted, entitlement in the country should be used to balance the budget. Short of that, you’re a hypocrite. But keep being nasty, that will prove your point. Gonna start protesting next for wanting to take away what’s yours? Lol. I wish New York would blow off it’s budget and start sending us all some cash, too!111!

pambi on February 18, 2011 at 6:24 PM

So when Rush argues for an end to pensions and a dependence on 401k and contribution-based benefit plans, he’s looking out for you (assuming you’re an average working class Joe)?

You do realize that it’s going to be virtually impossible for most middle and lower class Americans in the private sector to retire, right? But instead of worrying about that, let’s worry about the tax rate on individuals earning more than 250k! Let’s make sure that Goldman-Sachs doesn’t have to answer for insider-dealings and can continue to reap record breaking profits, all while contributing hand and fist to the Democrats! You might never retire, but Sean Hannity is going to spend a lot of time on his yacht (I have family who belong to the yacht club that he and Murdoch do up in Oyster Bay. Fantastic boats).

And they encourage you to look into yourself? Wha? In the name of increased profits, workers have had their benefits stripped away over the years. Where did that money go? Into the same peoples pockets who are telling you to look out for yourself. You’re getting mugged while you’re defending your mugger. I support someones ability to make money as much as the next poster here, but my family and my community comes first. They can make as much money as they want, as long as we aren’t working until we’re 80 years old to drive 6 year old cares and scrape to get by.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:43 PM

I wish New York would blow off it’s budget and start sending us all some cash, too!111!

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:43 PM

Allah, is that you?!

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 6:48 PM

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:30 PM

This honestly has nothing to do with “freedom”. It’s not like these teachers are arguing and demanding MORE, lest they walk out. They have been screwed over time and time again, and are now saying “enough, look elsewhere!”. And the public sector doesn’t work like that. You can’t have all the teachers just “leave”. It’s like suggesting the police department do that (which is why we dare not touch their pensions). Teachers are seen as expendable, as you guys seem to so strongly believe, but that only results in our youth getting hurt.

And this has nothing to do with teachers v the average Joe, because they are the same (teachers pay property taxes and earn an average income, just like average Joe). It’s the whole “first they came for the Jews, and I said nothing” analogy. Private sector workers happily bent over and got their pensions ripped away and replaced by 401ks (WHY they ever allowed this to happen is beyond me). They are all screwed. This wave of destroying worker benefits has now reached the teachers in WI, and they aren’t lying down and taking it like the private sector did. As soon as collective bargaining goes, so does teacher pensions. Lord knows your taxes aren’t going to decrease, because the state will funnel the money somewhere else. But now you’ll have legions of teachers that have joined the ranks of “people who will never, ever retire”. Seems a little petty if you ask me.

You’re kind a weird brand of conservative, actually. like … David Frum or … well … I can’t really tell. You definitely haven’t argued any conservative ideals in this thread that I can see.

BrideOfRove on February 18, 2011 at 6:36 PM

You mean the kind that gets personally attacked for arguing the other side of the coin? Didn’t expect to get so much vitriol here! But honestly, look at what our party is currently championing. Lower corporate tax, lower taxes on the wealthy, decreased worker benefits, decreased lower/middle class spending power (teachers make up a significant portion of a local economy). Whose benefiting? The ones who are golfing with Newt every weekend. Whose going to suffer, and suffer hard? The people posting on here defending them. Wake up, guys. I’m not saying we need to start reading the Huffington Post every day, but use some common sense. Who cares what Sean’s tax bracket is when you’re working 70 hours a week, contributing way more to society, but never getting ahead because of your bad luck?

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:54 PM

Allah, is that you?!

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 6:48 PM

I actually believe in God, thanks.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:54 PM

another true believer™ in the mist.

Inanemergencydial on February 18, 2011 at 7:09 PM

Do parents who homeschool get a tax break since they are not using public school facilities or personnel?

jeanie on February 18, 2011 at 2:16 PM

LOL! Here are some random thoughts…

We can claim curriculum expenses on taxes as an educational expense, but there is a chance of raising red flags to the IRS since no form comes from a college.

You touch on a side issue without knowing it…

Different states are considered homeschool-friendly, while others are not. It usually depends on what happens to the money associated with the kids.

Ohio (where I live) is considered homeschool-friendly because the money that is allocated by student is still kept by the district. Since it does not cost my local school district to pull my children out to homeschool, the district really doesn’t care. Other states are different.

We also do have limited access to use school facilities since we pay for them. Many homeschoolers join homeschool groups (taught by retired teachers) to take high school science classes, and get to use the school labs after school hours.

At the beginning of each year, we submit paperwork to the district stating we are homeschooling. At the end of each year, we have a teacher evaluate our kids, looking over homework/tests, and certify progress.

Where homeschooling excels is in how we can tailor curriculum to the interests of our kids. We still teach all the subjects in the public schools, but consider…

One of my daughters enjoyed reading Little House on the Prairie books, so her curriculum centered on literature, home-ec, American history, and participated in a day enactment of an 1800′s school house. She is now married, taking an online college course while working full time and raising our first grandchild.

My son was interested in music, and took up playing the electric guitar. His curriculum focused on music history (from Renaissance to modern) and science (his other interest). He will be starting college in Nashville studying music business and minoring in youth pastoring. He plays on our church worship team and helps lead the youth group.

My youngest is interested in horses. She and my wife clean stalls and feed every morning out at the barn to pay for board of her two horses. (You can’t do that in public school.) While she does the standard literature and history after they get back, her science studies focus on preparing for a state-level horse quizzing competition. She knows more about equine science (showing, grooming, caring, and diseases/afflictions) than most ag college grads! And she’s 13!

The biggest difference I see between public schooled and homeschooled kids is that most homeschooled kids have had the freedom to explore their interests and know what they want to create a career in! How many public school kids are “undecided” in college? Just something to think about…

dominigan on February 18, 2011 at 8:35 PM

Allah, is that you?!

upinak on February 18, 2011 at 6:48 PM

I actually believe in God, thanks.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:54 PM

Not to put a damper on this fun back-and-forth or anything, but I’m puzzled. You’ve repeatedly claimed to have been a long-time HA reader, effectively a first-time poster. And yet you can’t recognize when a well-known commenter makes a common “well played sir/you got us good” joke at the expense of one of the co-hosts? This after insulting the current inhabitants of a State, for abiding by a decision made 50+ years ago, regarding what to do with their own money, simply because you personally would have done something else with it? Please pardon my skepticism on your “long-time reader” or “conservative” bonafides.

Blacksmith on February 19, 2011 at 3:28 AM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:39 PM

There is no cut to pay involved in this WI bill. There is no affect to collective bargainig of wages. There is no cut to benefits, the teachers are simply being asked to contribute a little bit more toward them (thus saving taxpayers the responsibility of doing so).

Why do you have a problem with them paying a bit for for benefits? Their ability to collective bargain for benefits is in this WI bill, but why should they be able to do this? Why should they have this right?

ladyingray on February 19, 2011 at 5:42 AM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM

All of your choices result in a society that is, in general, less well off.

Fine… you are free to have that is your opinion.

But when those of us who have significantly > $170,000 in student loans to pay, having a politician telling me that I’ll need to work more hours, seeing more people, for very little extra financial gain, and expect me to sacrifice what little time I have to spend with my family “for society” is exceedingly naive & stupid.

The decisions that are being made, include those with philosophies which simply doesn’t make sense with the real world.

With bills to pay… why would I live in a commune if it will make my life more difficult? My benefits are not subsidized, I have to plan for my family’s & my future. If I don’t die first, and if I don’t strike oil in my backyard, I expect to find myself working until I’m 75, or become senile… whichever comes 1st.

Looking at the data, I don’t think we need to cut medicare reimbursment, but the fact of the matter is that cutting it will result in there being less doctors/less quality doctors, especially caring for the worst-off Americans.

Adding to medicare reimbursement: (1) Obamacare, (2) that the fact that there is no political will to nothing being done about the obscenely rising tuition at medical schools, (3) nothing being done to address tort reform – makes the appeal to go to medical school in future decades less appetizing for students in colleges.

Lower pay = lower quality teachers = lower quality education. It’s the mantra of our conservative movement, isn’t it?

See my response to your response. This isn’t about lowering teacher pay. Raise the teacher pay. But stop the massive tax subsidies for teachers benefits. Teachers, and all other public sector union employees should demonstrate their own financial responsibility without having their benefits subsidized.

Look at what happened to the auto companies. Chrysler, GM and Ford tanking was directly related to the incredible health care benefits union employees secured for not only themselves, but also their families. Imagine… a union line worker – no one dispuites that is a tough job… retires at 55. Then living for the next 20 years off of a full pension and fully subsidized health care benefits. Is there any wonder why, when car sales took a nosedive, that the money wasn’t there anymore? However, did the UAW accept any responsibility for the disaster, and acknowledge that when the company tanked, so did their benefits? No. Obama bailed them out. So when Chrysler & GM took bailout money to avoid bankruptcy, who then became the owner of Chrysler & GM? The UAW. Then, they folded their wonderful benefits that destroyed Chrysler & GM into Obamacare. So now our taxpayer dollars… all of us… including yours… goes to subsidize their healthcare… which is exempt from the conditions set for the rest of us. Now we are responsible for their healthcare. Good luck selling their $40,000 electric cars. What garbage.

As far as failing schools, again, a big factor is the administrations and the home life.

Long Island… fine. Believe me, however, what you are saying doesn’t compute in cities such as Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc. How can a teachers union, and teachers which are part of that union, intricately linked to the Dept. of Education, keep looking at graduation rates of 20-50% for african-americans in inner city public schools as acceptable? Of course, it is entirely related to the local social disasters… yawn. What a tired argument to remove any responsibility of teachers unions…

I lived in Detroit for 5 years. We did “outreach” to many public schools. For all of the money being dumped into them… I can guarantee you that the kids never saw any of it. The unions, however, have a great sense of where the money went – they just won’t tell us. Can’t say if I was a child living there, I would even see the point of going. So of course they look for alternatives.

Now, there are plenty of single parents in Detroit who do care for their kids and try anything they can to not put the children into a Detroit public school. The children we had seen in a parochial elementary school within close proximity of a public elementary school had children from the same physical area of Detroit, similar home situations, and similar social situations. However, the children appeared to be more invested, participated more, and did produce more work in class as well as completed homework to review.

The difference? A protected environment. And discipline. Answers alone? No. But a bid part. And the kids respond.

Whenever teachers unions fight making vouchers availabile destroy options for children in cities such as Detroit. Imagine how parents, who would love such assistance to be able to send their kids to a non-public school, feel? They know their child needs a miracle to stay out of gangs, and get out of Detroit. Obama helped the unions to eliminate vouchers in Washington DC within the last 2 years.

And schools being run by people who have barley, if ever, taught in a public school before (Michelle Rhee above and NYC’s new chancellor, for example) are a MASSIVE part of the problem.

I would argue that teaching in a public high school in the Hamptons is also not the same as teaching in a public high school in Detroit. Being able to lead, make tough decisions, implement standards for accountability should be the responsibility of the chancellors. People get paid for their expertise and perfomrance… at least this is how it works in the real world. You complain about Michelle Rhee? We taxpayer complain about having to pay and subsidize pensions & benefits for incompetant teachers. There is no accountability within the teachers unions for bad teachers. Any other profession? Poor performance results in being fired and/or sued.

Tell us, is the Department of Education responsible for the thousands of failing schools in the US? If not them… apparently no one is.

For the record, most superintendents and their assistances get paid salaries equal to the teaching staffs of entire schools. But let’s cut those teachers salaries some more!

This is your straw man argument. Not mine. See my earlier response. It is not about the teacher pay. you want it to go up? Fine. It is all about the massive subsidies for teachers health care and pension benefits via teachers unions (similar for other public sector unions) that cannot be sustained.

Take a few more minutes to read the prior paragraph again. Digest it. Because if you can’t understand it, then it is plain that you are pitting teacher unions benefits (and other public sector unions) against the interests of children you supposedly want to educate, and the interests of well being of any taxpayer. And, lying about being ill, and using other people’s children effectively as human shields is not helping your argument. In fact, teachers unions behavior currently is cementing opinions against all teachers as well.

So it is up to you… to change the culture of the teachers unions from the inside. if not, well, you put it best:

All of your choices result in a society that is, in general, less well off.

Danny on February 19, 2011 at 6:48 AM

Hey Allah… What the hell happened to my earlier post? Did you dump it?

Danny on February 19, 2011 at 6:50 AM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM
Someones getting nasty!

Absolutely.

Does it take more to become a doctor then it does to become a teacher? OF COURSE. I’m going to go ahead and award you the “straw-man of the topic” award for this post.

“A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”

Nice try. Funny. Your assessment applies directly to you. My response to your prior post, specifically was to the following comment you made:

Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM

I’ll be more clear for you. You whine about how long it takes for teachers to be trained. My response, “Sorry, no sympathy here.” Then I go on to use physicians as another example of the obscene sacrifice people do to become trained professionals. Thus, the “Sorry, no sympathy here.”
The I go on to address the comment you made, essentially, oh, whoa is me, we have pathetic take home pay. I do this using a single paragraph highlighting how during extensive training, physicians make about the same than someone flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Then you said, “I assume your post was pointing out how unfair that is”. In part, you are correct… but not for the obvious reason.

Let us go back to your original comment:
“Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.”

Now, I’m assuming you’re still with me. Watch…
“Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.”

Again, “…(you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment)…”

Since you can’t see the forest from the trees, and you are fixed on teachers pay (which is the garbage argument, because it isn’t the pertinent argument, but designed to engender sympathy), I’ll teach you.

It is about the taxpayer subsidized benefits, stupid.

Let us say that your comment about that “… you can’t count benefits…” is moronic. It is. How, you say? I’ll teach you.

So, you are a 30-something teacher working in a public school system, say Ridgewood Village in NJ. Say that you earn the pittance of a salary that the following Ridgewood High School teachers earn (http://www.nj.com/news/bythenumbers/):
KAMENO,S Phys Ed. $123,684 (18yrs) Masters
SCHAEFER,M English $120,889 (21yrs) Doctorate
FERN,L Biology $111,940 (22yrs) Masters

And, how much are the property taxes per household, per year in Ridgewood Village, NJ (dated 2007)? $13,266

Adopting the data above, as all of these teachers are conceivably considering retiring soon, that the average of these salaries applies to a 30 something year-old male who is planning to retire at the age of 55 after 25 years of teaching… reasonable.
“… the retirement income is usually half to two thirds of the average of the last three years of full-time salary.” http://www.ehow.com/list_6636701_teacher-pension-benefits.html

Let us assume that the average of the salaries above, $119,000 is the last 3yrs of salary. Thus the annual retirement income for our 30-something who retires at 55+ after 25 years of teaching is between $59,500 (1/2) and $79,300 (2/3). For simplicity sake, take the average of these = $69,400.

Apply to the average lifespan in the US of 78+ years (http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=average+lifespan+united+states). Thus, if our hard on our luck 30 something year old male retires at 55, he may live another 20-23 years.

During this time, he will receive between $1.39 million – $1.60 million. This is taxpayer subsidized money. This teacher, no matter good or bad, will receive this much in pension, NOT INCLUDING health care benefits for which he currently doesn’t pay a single cent in NJ from the day he is hired until the day he dies.

… but many teachers get stuck in permanent sub hell, and are getting paid close to minimum wage with no benefits for years.

“Membership in the NEA is open to substitutes who are employed by or in a public school district. The professional substitute joins the NEA through membership in the state affiliate.” http://www.nea.org/home/1606.htm
But, even teachers in “… permanent sub hell…” can receive the benefits of joining a union. The same union that provides you with the benefits you like to ignore… because it comes at very little if any cost to you, but rather on the backs of non-union taxpayers who are losing their jobs and their homes because they can’t pay their bills. And if you get tenure in less than 5 years, shaddup. As far as the benefits you get… see the example above if you skipped over it.

Until you get tenure, your pay will barley cover student loans (unlike residency, failing to find a job after graduating with a teaching degree won’t stop the creditors).

“Tenure is the job protection New Jersey educations receive after three years and one day on the job.” http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/njea_dismissal_plan_for_tenure.html
Awwwwwwww. So, as early as when physicians-in-training are in their 1st year of residency training, a new teacher could have been tenured? Did I hear a bell ring? Wanna hear my violin? It’s a stradivarius. The same creditors that go after you go after everyone. And no one has the money when they do.

So… Let us review.

When you say this, “Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.”… you are not only being disingenuous, but downright spiteful and disrespectful because I’ll guarantee you that not a single taxpayer was sitting at the table when the teachers unions and liberal politicians cooked up increased taxation to subsidize your early retirement. Additionally, you don’t appear anything other than being greedy. No way around it. Can’t wash yourself of it. You stink like the $hit that it is because you are covered in it. And you cannot justify that you are holding onto this “because we care for the children”… that is the definition of bull$hit. Is that what they teach you before, or after you become a union member?

Doctors require significantly more schooling, but received SIGNIFICANTLY more pay then a teacher. On the other hand, a teacher with only 2 years less classroom education then a fresh doctor will have take home pay EQUAL to the average worker.

Sorry sir/ma’am. This is your straw man argument. You are obviously missing the point. It is not about the pay.

I assume your post was pointing out how unfair that is, and that you just got a little confused in your final thoughts.

No… my thinking is pretty clear… and I believe that you are delusional. (There is a physician for that.) So you want higher pay? Fine. But pay for your own benefits, just like the rest of us. Thus… again, my original ultimate response to your comment was: “Never bitch about how long it takes to become a teacher. Shut up, budget, save your money, and plan ahead like the rest of us. You will get no sympathy from that argument here.” I’m telling you… don’t say that the unions are doing this because you care for the kids… That is nothing but a loser for you. People can smell that bull$shit before you even vomit it out of your mouth.

Once again, everyone else breaks their backs to get to where they are. But teachers, thanks to their unions, get their benefits subsidized. You cannot ignore, and need to consider the benefits. If not, you are truly living irresponsibly without caring for where those benefits come from. Then again, frankly, this isn’t surprising.

Again, thanks for playing.

Playing for you. You being played. This is a debate of ideas… and you cannot even identify the problem.

Thus endeth this part of the lesson.

Danny on February 19, 2011 at 9:01 AM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM
Someones getting nasty!

Absolutely.

Does it take more to become a doctor then it does to become a teacher? OF COURSE. I’m going to go ahead and award you the “straw-man of the topic” award for this post.

“A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”

Nice try. Funny. Your assessment applies directly to you. My response to your prior post, specifically was to the following comment you made:
“Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.
Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 1:20 PM”

I’ll be more clear for you. You whine about how long it takes for teachers to be trained. My response, “Sorry, no sympathy here.”

Then I go on to use physicians as another example of the obscene sacrifice people do to become trained professionals. Thus, the “Sorry, no sympathy here.”
The I go on to address the comment you made, essentially, oh, whoa is me, we have pathetic take home pay. I do this using a single paragraph highlighting how during extensive training, physicians make about the same than someone flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Then you said, “I assume your post was pointing out how unfair that is”. In part, you are correct… but not for the obvious reason.

Let us go back to your original comment:
Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.”

Now, I’m assuming you’re still with me.
Watch…
Teachers require years of schooling, along with masters degrees. Their take home pay (you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment) is essentially equal to that of unskilled laborers.”

Again, “…(you can’t count benefits, since a 30 something year old male teacher won’t ever touch half of their benefit allotment)…”

Since you can’t see the forest from the trees, and you are fixed on teachers pay (which is the garbage argument, because it isn’t the pertinent argument, but designed to engender sympathy), I’ll teach you.

It is about the taxpayer subsidized benefits, stupid.

Let us say that your comment about that “… you can’t count benefits…” is moronic. It is.

How, you say?
I’ll teach you.

(See pt 2)

Danny on February 19, 2011 at 9:09 AM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM

Part 2

So, you are a 30-something teacher working in a public school system, say Ridgewood Village in NJ. Say that you earn the pittance of a salary that the following Ridgewood High School teachers earn (http://www.nj.com/news/bythenumbers/):
KAMENO,S Phys Ed. $123,684 (18yrs) Masters
SCHAEFER,M English $120,889 (21yrs) Doctorate
FERN,L Biology $111,940 (22yrs) Masters
And, how much are the property taxes per household, per year in Ridgewood Village, NJ (dated 2007)? $13,266.

Adopting the data above, as all of these teachers are conceivably considering retiring soon, that the average of these salaries applies to a 30 something year-old male who is planning to retire at the age of 55 after 25 years of teaching… reasonable.
“… the retirement income is usually half to two thirds of the average of the last three years of full-time salary.” http://www.ehow.com/list_6636701_teacher-pension-benefits.html

Let us assume that the average of the salaries above, $119,000 is the last 3yrs of salary. Thus the annual retirement income for our 30-something who retires at 55+ after 25 years of teaching is between $59,500 (1/2) and $79,300 (2/3). For simplicity sake, take the average of these = $69,400.

Apply to the average lifespan in the US of 78+ years (http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=average+lifespan+united+states). Thus, if our hard on our luck 30 something year old male retires at 55, he may live another 20-23 years.

During this time, he will receive between $1.39 million – $1.60 million. This is taxpayer subsidized money.

This teacher, no matter good or bad, will receive this much in pension, NOT INCLUDING health care benefits for which he currently doesn’t pay a single cent in NJ from the day he is hired until the day he dies.

but many teachers get stuck in permanent sub hell, and are getting paid close to minimum wage with no benefits for years.

“Membership in the NEA is open to substitutes who are employed by or in a public school district. The professional substitute joins the NEA through membership in the state affiliate.” http://www.nea.org/home/1606.htm
But, even teachers in “… permanent sub hell…” can receive the benefits of joining a union.

The same union that provides you with the benefits you like to ignore… because it comes at very little if any cost to you, but rather on the backs of non-union taxpayers who are losing their jobs and their homes because they can’t pay their bills. And if you get tenure in less than 5 years, shaddup. As far as the benefits you get… see the example above if you skipped over it.

Until you get tenure, your pay will barley cover student loans (unlike residency, failing to find a job after graduating with a teaching degree won’t stop the creditors).

“Tenure is the job protection New Jersey educations receive after three years and one day on the job.” http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/njea_dismissal_plan_for_tenure.html
Awwwwwwww. So, as early as when physicians-in-training are in their 1st year of residency training, a new teacher could have been tenured? Did I hear a bell ring? Wanna hear my violin? It’s a stradivarius. The same creditors that go after you go after everyone. And no one has the money when they do.

To review… see part 3.

Danny on February 19, 2011 at 9:20 AM

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 6:54 PM

America is the land of equal opportunity, not equal outcome…

ladyingray on February 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM

America is the land of equal opportunity, not equal outcome…

ladyingray on February 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM

The only equal opportunity we’ve got any more is the opportunity to get screwed.

Dark-Star on February 19, 2011 at 12:18 PM

I assume you did no reading on the voucher program before now. The final assessment showed that the actual grade increase of these students was minimal, if there was one at all. What did increase, however, was the attendance and graduation rates of the students. You should ask yourself why this is. The answer, quite simply, is that the parents who sought and obtained these vouchers are the ones who had an active role in their children’s lives. Once they win the lottery/scholarship for these schools, they make SURE their child attends. Even then, these private schools did nothing about test grades, they were only more forceful in making sure the student stayed in their seat (which starts at home). Read up on the general failings of the Harlem Children’s Zone for more information.

If I take what you are saying properly, it’s that students show minimal improvement when their educational environment is changed for the better, and attendance and graduation rates are improved. That’s an interesting position for anyone in education to take, and runs counter to most assertions by educators as well. I would guess that, if there were no increases in student scores (actually, there was a 0.13 sigma increase, rated statistically nonsignificant), that the majority of students who went into this program were already badly damaged by their previous public school experience, and did not have enough time in the voucher program for it to make a difference.

But an increase in graduation rate to 91% seems phenomenal to me.

It was hailed as something great by Obama, but it’s being proven that they will only accept the most academically gifted students.

The students were chosen by lottery. Any applicant, including those who’d suffered most at the hands of public educators, were eligible.

A fool can teach a child with a thirst for knowledge, but it’s not so easy to teach one who couldn’t care less. I feel like you didn’t read what I wrote, and didn’t read the article you linked here.

I did read what you wrote, and I did read the article I linked. I drew different conclusions from same.

As far as LAUSD goes, it’s perhaps one of the “worst” districts in the country, but nothing you said besides an unprovable assumption points to any teacher wrong doing. It points to a problem with the administration. That’s my whole point. That’s where we need reform. Cutting teachers salaries won’t accomplish anything. Thanks for proving my point.

I’m not for cutting teacher salaries — I’m just for subjecting them to the same pension plans and on-the-job performance rules as the rest of us. As for administration, if you include the union in that, I concur. It’s the union that allows tenure for ineffective teachers. Several members of my family are/were employed by LAUSD, and the stories are not just about administrators, but about peers. What would you say about a union peer who deliberately and repeatedly bisects your line of students with his in order to disrupt your class’s discipline, because you crossed his picket line four years earlier?

I’m not sure why you quoted Rhee here. She’s a disgraced former chancellor, in case you didn’t know. Someone who lied about her 3-year teaching performance, and then went on to marry an influential educator and do nothing but lead teaching workshops, using her apparent lack of experience as a guide. Even in the linked article (which I again assume you didn’t read) she talks about how she failed, and it was mostly because she ran the schools like an administrator, not like a teacher. Again, that’s my point. Thanks for playing.

Rainsford on February 18, 2011 at 3:27 PM

I think far more of Rhee than I think of you and your ad hominem attacks upon her. As for running the schools like an administrator and not a teacher — well, it’s the right thing to do, when the teachers are organized to do what’s good for themselves rather than what’s good for the kids:

FURTHER EVIDENCE that D.C. Schools Chancellor Michelle A. Rhee is doing the right things came this week in new test data showing D.C. fourth-graders leading the nation in reading gains. The schools are still troubled, and there is still much to be done. But here is more reason to believe that the three-year effort to reform Washington’s public education is paying off.

Note that the article is from the Washington Post — a liberal newspaper. What’s good for the goose is certainly good for the gander. Thanks for trying to play.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2011 at 3:44 AM

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