Gabrielle Gifford’s Husband Expresses Newfound Faith

posted at 9:30 am on February 4, 2011 by John Sexton

Gabrielle Gifford’s husband Mark Kelly spoke at the National Prayer Breakfast yesterday. In his brief speech he expressed his own turn to faith to support him during the most difficult time of his life:

I was telling Gabby just the other night, two nights ago, that you know maybe this event, this terrible event, maybe it was fate. I hadn’t been a big believer in fate until recently. I thought the world just spins and the clock just ticks and things happen for no particular reason. But from space, far above that traffic on the New Jersey turnpike, you have an entirely different perspective of life on our planet. It’s humbling to see the earth as God created it in the context of God’s vast universe…

He closed his talk with an appeal to prayer. Although the words were a bit jumbled his meaning and sincerity were clear:

God bless you and please, please, please continue to keep Gabby’s thoughts and prayers in your heart. It is really helping.

Gabrielle Giffords condition continues to improve at a rehab center in Houston.


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come now right4life… your definition of winning the argument is to say how pathetically stupid your opponent is and how ignorant they are of the ToE when you have a rudimentary understanding of it at best.

Hell, you think the theory is racist. As I said the other day in the other thread, it takes a racist to see racism in a scientific theory.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:14 PM

Admit defeat, I thought you wanted Christians to thrive. What do you consider admitting defeat? It would appear Atheists are not what they seem. Or mean anything they say. WTF is with you guys?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:12 PM

I don’t know that I have seen more utter ignorance about evolution from a supporter of evolution than from mjbrutus today.

the only thing I can think of is one time at MM I had a darwiniac telling me evolution is the mechanism for evolution….

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:14 PM

come now right4life… your definition of winning the argument is to say how pathetically stupid your opponent is and how ignorant they are of the ToE when you have a rudimentary understanding of it at best.

I obviously understand it better than MJbrutus or you do…do I need to go back to that thread and list some of the ignorant things you said about evolution? its rather clear neither of you understand it. saying that parallel and convergent evolution are CREATIONIST attempts to subvert evolution?

amazing

Hell, you think the theory is racist. As I said the other day in the other thread, it takes a racist to see racism in a scientific theory.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:14 PM

so you’re saying Gould is a racist huh?

“Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.” Stephen Jay Gould,

1. Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 127.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:17 PM

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:14 PM

I don’t know about a man that would rather talk about turning Christians away from Christianity than talk about his kids though. Strange.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:17 PM

so why did biological arguments for racism increase FOLLOWING the acceptance of evolutionary theory, unless the theory itself is racist? hmmmmmm??

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:18 PM

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:14 PM

You’re right, I thought Atheists were better trained.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:18 PM

I don’t know about a man that would rather talk about turning Christians away from Christianity than talk about his kids though. Strange.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:17 PM

from his answers, I seriously doubt he was ever a christian, or even thought about some of these deep issues.

I think he’s blowing smoke…

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:19 PM

You’re right, I thought Atheists were better trained.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:18 PM

did you notice some of the atheist answers to Egnor’s questions about philosophy in the previous page? they were shallow beyond belief…just dismissed the questions…and were unable to even make a rational answer…and these are deep philosophical questions that have been thought about for millenia…

they’re not nearly as clever as they think they are…and most of them cannot go beyond talking points…they’re typical democrats.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:21 PM

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:21 PM

Absolutely. And although I find SauerKraut tenacious, I find neither one very compelling or original.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:23 PM

Absolutely. And although I find SauerKraut tenacious, I find neither one very compelling or original.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2011 at 6:23 PM

I wonder about his honesty….

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:26 PM

so you’re saying Gould is a racist huh?

“Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.” Stephen Jay Gould,

1. Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 127.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:17 PM

Not at all, and Goulds comments about racism have no bearing on the validity of the Theory. As I said, it takes a racist to look to a scientific theory as justification for continued racism.

You can’t say the theory is wrong because racists use it in a manner it wasn’t meant to be used… The theory of evolution is an observation of nature. It’s predictions, such as Darwin’s Hawk, always bear fruit.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:27 PM

Just try making it through the stupid video on his you tube page.

Snoozefest.

Inanemergencydial on February 6, 2011 at 6:29 PM

Not at all, and Goulds comments about racism have no bearing on the validity of the Theory. As I said, it takes a racist to look to a scientific theory as justification for continued racism.

you’re a complete and utter ass….I’m in an interracial marriage…let me guess you have lots of black ‘friends’ right??? sigh.

again

so why did biological arguments for racism increase FOLLOWING the acceptance of evolutionary theory, unless the theory itself is racist? hmmmmmm??

I know you can’t answer.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:32 PM

and right4life… your comments about my former beliefs as a Christian are a perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

believers that come across former believers like myself often try to deal with the cognitive dissonance by saying we weren’t true Christians or Muslims, etc… That we were never true believers…

You don’t know jack Sylvia

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:35 PM

The theory of evolution is an observation of nature. It’s predictions, such as Darwin’s Hawk, always bear fruit.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:27 PM

uh huh you mean like junk DNA?? or the tree of life, which has been thrown out? you mean the lack of transitions in the fossil record? or the inability to evolve anything in the lab? or the whole ‘vestigial organs’ when there aren’t any?

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:36 PM

You don’t know jack Sylvia

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:35 PM

oh so you’re gene splicer…no wonder you’re such a dumbass POS.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:36 PM

Someone who was christian for 40 of his 42 years, likely never was a christian. That is so devoid of doctrine, which you don’t understand.

Inanemergencydial on February 6, 2011 at 6:36 PM

and right4life… your comments about my former beliefs as a Christian are a perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:35 PM

you were never a christian you lying piece of trash. you never had kids..no woman would want your deranged ass…

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:38 PM

God you are SUCH a dipstick. EVERY fossil they have is a transitional fossil between species.

EVERY
SINGLE
FOSSIL
THEY
HAVE
is an example of a transitional species.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:39 PM

oh so you’re gene splicer…no wonder you’re such a dumbass POS.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:36 PM

No, I’m SauerKraut537, although I enjoy Gene’s commenting ever since we met the other day in the other thread.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:41 PM

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:39 PM

uh yeah thats why gould had to come up with punctuated equilibrium…duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:41 PM

you were never a christian you lying piece of trash. you never had kids..no woman would want your deranged ass…

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:38 PM

think what you will. you’ve already shown yourself very capable of that already.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:41 PM

No, I’m SauerKraut537, although I enjoy Gene’s commenting ever since we met the other day in the other thread.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:41 PM

only a nut-case would enjoy that wackos comments…you’re either him, or just like him, which makes you trash.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:42 PM

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:41 PM

you are just like genie…spewing talking points..unable to answer any question…and incapable of an original thought.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:43 PM

right4life, you are a piece of work. don’t know why you think berating and overbearing language is gonna get you any closer to winning in an argument or debate, but I’m here to tell you it doesn’t work.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:45 PM

right4life, you are a piece of work. don’t know why you think berating and overbearing language is gonna get you any closer to winning in an argument or debate, but I’m here to tell you it doesn’t work.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:45 PM

whatever genie, I’ve already won this argument. continue with your lies and BS.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:47 PM

I’ve answered plenty of questions… I can’t help it if you characterize them as talking points and thus don’t listen to them…

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:47 PM

whatever genie, I’ve already won this argument. continue with your lies and BS.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:47 PM

again, you’ve already shown yourself very capable of believing what you want to believe. Keep on trucking ho…

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:49 PM

I’ve answered plenty of questions… I can’t help it if you characterize them as talking points and thus don’t listen to them…

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:47 PM

*snicker* you didn’t answer any of them….

again:

so why did biological arguments for racism increase FOLLOWING the acceptance of evolutionary theory, unless the theory itself is racist? hmmmmmm??

you’re unable to answer that SYLVIA!!! lol

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:49 PM

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:49 PM

and if every fossil is a transition, then why did gould have to come up with punctuated equilibrium hmmmmmm???

don’t worry, I know you can’t answer either of these…

onto your next talking point sylvia, genie..whatever…

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:50 PM

Racists all through history have latched onto anything they thought justified their continued racism. Why would you expect anything different with the ToE?

Why don’t you answer this question about why the southerners used the bible as a justification for their practice of slavery, and they were right on that point by the way… They have scripture which backs up their claims… And we all know the bible is the word of god.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:53 PM

Racists all through history have latched onto anything they thought justified their continued racism. Why would you expect anything different with the ToE?

thats an answer? just more talking points…and trying to divert to the bible…yawn…

where were all those atheist abolitionists? hmmm??? and you were the moron who told that slavery was still in force in England when Darwin came out with your bible…laughable BS.

next you’ll tell me darwin led the crusade against slavery…LOL

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:55 PM

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:53 PM

thanks for proving you’re just a talking point troll…AGAIN.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:56 PM

nice straw man r4l… answer my question. I answered yours, not to your liking but I answered it.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:56 PM

thanks for proving you’re just a talking point troll…AGAIN.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:56 PM

in psychobabble, this is called projection.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:57 PM

nice straw man r4l… answer my question. I answered yours, not to your liking but I answered it.

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:56 PM

I did answer your question…unlike you…you’re just too stupid to understand the answer…no surprise.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:57 PM

Racists all through history have latched onto anything they thought justified their continued racism. Why would you expect anything different with the ToE

gomer, they couldn’t use the theory of evolution..unless it was RACIST…as gould said.

you can use the bible to justify slavery, since slavery existed throughout the bible…you can also use it to to eliminate slavery..which WILBERFORCE did…but you can’t use it for racism….unlike your beloved TOE…get a clue.

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 6:59 PM

whatever… you are a colossal troll of epic proportions… you can have your forum back now… enjoy the echoes and sounds of crickets chirping…

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:59 PM

whatever… you are a colossal troll of epic proportions… you can have your forum back now… enjoy the echoes and sounds of crickets chirping…

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:59 PM

thanks for the laughs gomer!!! what a buffoon!!

right4life on February 6, 2011 at 7:00 PM

R4L, you destroyed these guys. I laugh that the one has to lie about a family that doesn’t exist and a car crash that never happened to promote his “truth”.

Pathetic.

hawkdriver on February 7, 2011 at 6:00 AM

R4L, you destroyed these guys. I laugh that the one has to lie about a family that doesn’t exist and a car crash that never happened to promote his “truth”.

Pathetic.

hawkdriver on February 7, 2011 at 6:00 AM

thank you my friend! it is kind of scary the lengths these people will go….lying for darwin…to them the ends justify the means…

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 8:11 AM

R4L, you destroyed these guys. I laugh that the one has to lie about a family that doesn’t exist and a car crash that never happened to promote his “truth”.

Pathetic.

hawkdriver on February 7, 2011 at 6:00 AM

LOL@Hawk, she didn’t destroy anything. She thinks, and apparently you think, that she did but I’m sorry to say but she’s as wrong as wrong can be about the ToE.

What really happened is that I got bored of her drivel and decided to move on.

She thinks if she can yell louder and be as obstinate as possible that that wins it for her. Sorry, but the facts are on my side, and I’m with the 95% of scientists who say the theory is correct.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:09 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:09 AM

damn you’re dumb. you’re not very perceptive are you now sugar pie? ‘she’ LOL

you wimped out. don’t blame you, I made you look so stupid…but then your own posts make you look stupid.

still waiting for those facts…LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:14 AM

hawkdriver on February 7, 2011 at 6:00 AM

And like her, you can believe what you want to believe about the little door I opened into my life. Like her, you’ve already shown yourself to believe what you want to believe.

Let’s see a bit of what you do believe…

You believe a god knocked up a virgin girl, likely against her wishes, and that baby was born and then sacrificed himself to himself, and became a zombie that flew up into heaven after “allowing” himself to be tortured for 3 days in a place called hell by an entity that this all powerful, all loving god thinks needs to be there to punish all those who don’t believe it.

That about sums it up doesn’t it?

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:16 AM

That about sums it up doesn’t it?

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:16 AM

the day will come when you will bown down, proclaim Him Lord…just before you’re thrown into hell, where you belong.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM

still waiting for those facts…LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:14 AM

I TIRED of it… The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

No matter what I gave you, you were going to distort it and not listen anyway so what’s the point.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM

the day will come when you will bown down, proclaim Him Lord…just before you’re thrown into hell, where you belong.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM

I could say the same of you when you meet the god of the Jains.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:19 AM

No matter what I gave you, you were going to distort it and not listen anyway so what’s the point.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM

you don’t have any facts….all you can do is post talking points. you have proven you cannot go beyond talking points..you’re a typical darwiniac liberal wacko. you don’t understand the theory your worship at all…and you do a pathetic job of defending it.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:20 AM

I could say the same of you when you meet the god of the Jains.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 9:19 AM

we’ve both made our choice…we’ll see who gets the last laugh.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:21 AM

oh and this is just a total lie…

and right4life… your comments about my former beliefs as a Christian are a perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

believers that come across former believers like myself often try to deal with the cognitive dissonance by saying we weren’t true Christians or Muslims, etc… That we were never true believers…

You don’t know jack Sylvia

SauerKraut537 on February 6, 2011 at 6:35 PM

the shallowness of your talking points reveal that you never were a christian. no one who becomes a christian is THAT shallow.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:24 AM

you don’t have any facts….all you can do is post talking points. you have proven you cannot go beyond talking points..you’re a typical darwiniac liberal wacko. you don’t understand the theory your worship at all…and you do a pathetic job of defending it.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:20 AM

Surely you realize that jsut because you call it a talking point that that doesn’t mean it’s not a fact. I’ve given you plenty of facts since we began this discussion R4L. I can’t make you accept them, but I do know this.

Just about every “fact” or quote you’ve given me comes straight out of the creationist playbook when it comes to counteracting the fact of the Theory of Evolution.

Now I have 95% of the scientists on the planet who KNOW that the Theory of Evolution is fact and you’ve got your 5% of creation “scientists” who’s life works include making it their purpose in life to muddy the waters of the science that proves it true.

Interestingly, creation scientists like to attack the radiometric dating process that shows the earth to be 4.6 billion years old, they introduce objections to the science of genetics which are proving it more and more true every day, they claim that the fossils don’t show these transitional species and keep looking at the gaps in the fossil record as proof that there is no missing link when we have plenty of “missing links” (which by the way is not missing).

Here is the definitive proof for you in case you wanted to know that we are in fact a primate.

The great apes all have 48 chromosomes while we humans only have 46. On the face of it you would think that this would show that we were in fact different than the great apes, and we certainly are to an extent, but here’s the game winner for me R4L and Hawk…

Chromosomes have these nifty little markers called telomeres and centromeres in them. A telomere is a region of repetitive DNA at the end of a chromosome, which protects the end of the chromosome from deterioration. Its name is derived from the Greek nouns telos (τέλος) “end” and merοs (μέρος, root: μερ-) “part”. The telomere regions deter the degradation of genes near the ends of chromosomes by allowing for the shortening of chromosome ends, which necessarily occurs during chromosome replication. The telomeres are disposable buffers blocking the ends of the chromosomes and are consumed during cell division and replenished by an enzyme, the telomerase reverse transcriptase.

A centromere is a region of DNA typically found near the middle of a chromosome where two identical sister chromatids come closest in contact. It is involved in cell division as the point of mitotic spindle attachment. The sister chromatids are attached all along their length, but they are closest at the centromere. When cell division takes place, the chromosomes split at the point where the centromere is.

So what happened is that sometime in the distant past, two of our (human) chromosomes must have fused together which would mean that we can look at our genome and we should be able to find a chromosome with telomeres in the MIDDLE of the chromosome where it doesn’t belong.

Guess what R4L? They have found the precise fusion point of the chromosomes and it resides in human chromosome #2. Chromosome # 2 is the fusion of two of the great ape chromosomes.

There are other tell tale signs that we are in fact related to the other great apes too. When a virus infects a cell, it’s RNA gets injected into the infected cell and the infected cell takes that RNA strain and injects it into the DNA of the infected cell and it leaves a “stamp” if you will on the infected cell. If the virus happens to infect a gamete cell guess what happens… That virus’ “stamp” gets reproduced in the offspring of the infected animal…

Guess what they find in the genome of both the chimpanzee and humans? They have found several hundred endogenous retrovirus “stamps” in both the human and chimpanzee genomes that line up perfectly in the DNA code.

What does this mean? It means that at some point in our past that the common ancestors to chimpanzees and humans were infected with virus who’s “stamp” got passed down from generation to generation.

We ARE the fifth great ape… Get over it.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:19 AM

Interestingly, creation scientists like to attack the radiometric dating process that shows the earth to be 4.6 billion years old, they introduce objections to the science of genetics which are proving it more and more true every day, they claim that the fossils don’t show these transitional species and keep looking at the gaps in the fossil record as proof that there is no missing link when we have plenty of “missing links” (which by the way is not missing).

what does the age of the earth have to do with evolution?

what are these missing links then? point out the fossils, and prove gould and eldridge a liar!

Guess what R4L? They have found the precise fusion point of the chromosomes and it resides in human chromosome #2. Chromosome # 2 is the fusion of two of the great ape chromosomes.

and this proves what?

Evidence for Fusion in a Human Chromosome Tells you LITTLE TO NOTHING about whether Humans Share a Common Ancestor with Living Apes
Usually Darwinists argue for human-ape common ancestry based upon alleged “shared errors” in human DNA and ape DNA. But the chromosomal fusion evidence is not a “shared error” argument for human / ape common ancestry, because apes do not have a fused chromosome. The human chromosomal fusion argument focuses on a fusion event that is specific to the human line, and therefore provides a highly limited form of evidence for human / ape common ancestry.

All Miller has done is documented direct empirical evidence of a chromosomal fusion event in the human line. But evidence for a chromosomal fusion event is not evidence for when that event took place, nor is it evidence for the ancestry prior to that event.

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1392

this is the best you can do?? LOL

Guess what they find in the genome of both the chimpanzee and humans? They have found several hundred endogenous retrovirus “stamps” in both the human and chimpanzee genomes that line up perfectly in the DNA code.

really now? you sure about that???

a little more about the retrovirus…
A HERV-K provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas, but not humans.
link

there are pseudogenes found in humans and apes but not in chimps:
A truncated immunoglobulin epsilon pseudogene is found in gorilla and man but not in chimpanzee.
link
why are so many tests done on mice rather than on other primates? While it is also cheaper to do tests on mice, the real reason is that their bodily systems (especially the immune system) function more similarly to ours than do those of primates.
As has been the case with numerous nuclear DNA markers, there was no consensus among the HERV trees for the relationship among humans, chimpanzees, and gorillas (30). The remaining trees displayed interesting deviations from the predicted separation of the 5′ and 3′ LTR sequences.
link

notice how I reference material to back up what I say, when all you can do is post talking points…not very well thought out talking points at that.

again you do a piss-poor job defending your racist god.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:38 AM

the shallowness of your talking points reveal that you never were a christian. no one who becomes a christian is THAT shallow.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 9:24 AM

whatever R4L. Again, you think what you want, I know what I know, and I was a Christian… Not a perfect Christian but then there never is…

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:40 AM

Now I have 95% of the scientists on the planet who KNOW that the Theory of Evolution is fact and you’ve got your 5% of creation “scientists” who’s life works include making it their purpose in life to muddy the waters of the science that proves it true.

didn’t realize science is a poll.

Interestingly, creation scientists like to attack the radiometric dating process that shows the earth to be 4.6 billion years old, they introduce objections to the science of genetics which are proving it more and more true every day, they claim that the fossils don’t show these transitional species and keep looking at the gaps in the fossil record as proof that there is no missing link when we have plenty of “missing links” (which by the way is not missing).

what does the age of the earth have to do with evolution? and list all those transitional species…and prove gould and eldrige wrong then. this should be good…

Guess what R4L? They have found the precise fusion point of the chromosomes and it resides in human chromosome #2. Chromosome # 2 is the fusion of two of the great ape chromosomes

and so?

Evidence for Fusion in a Human Chromosome Tells you LITTLE TO NOTHING about whether Humans Share a Common Ancestor with Living Apes
Usually Darwinists argue for human-ape common ancestry based upon alleged “shared errors” in human DNA and ape DNA. But the chromosomal fusion evidence is not a “shared error” argument for human / ape common ancestry, because apes do not have a fused chromosome. The human chromosomal fusion argument focuses on a fusion event that is specific to the human line, and therefore provides a highly limited form of evidence for human / ape common ancestry.

All Miller has done is documented direct empirical evidence of a chromosomal fusion event in the human line. But evidence for a chromosomal fusion event is not evidence for when that event took place, nor is it evidence for the ancestry prior to that event.

To be more specific, the fusion-evidence implies that some of our ancestors likely had 48 chromosomes. But Miller has not provided any evidence that the individual with 48 chromosomes was historically related to modern apes. (I grant that our chromosome #2 has banding patterns similar to two ape chromosomes, but given that our chromosome structure is generally similar to that of apes anyways, it is not a stretch to assume that any 48 chromosome ancestor of modern humans might have also had a chromosomal scheme similar to that of apes, regardless of whether or not that individual was related to apes. Claiming that banding pattern similarities is evidence of common ancestry with apes simply invokes the “similarity = common ancestry” argument, and thus begs the question.) It is entirely possible that our genus Homo underwent a chromosomal fusion event within its own separate history.

Under Neo-Darwinism, the common ancestor of humans and apes is thought to have lived about six million years ago. But under Miller’s account, it is entirely possible that this chromosomal fusion event happened in a human population only 10,000 years ago, in a population that has no relation to living apes. In such a case, this chromosomal fusion event thus needs not have anything to do with making us human-like as opposed to ape-like. Clearly this chromosomal fusion event could be extremely far removed from any alleged ancestry with apes.

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1392

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:41 AM

Guess what they find in the genome of both the chimpanzee and humans? They have found several hundred endogenous retrovirus “stamps” in both the human and chimpanzee genomes that line up perfectly in the DNA code.

you really haven’t looked into this issue very well now have you? again all you can do is post talking points…

a little more about the retrovirus…
A HERV-K provirus in chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas, but not humans.
link

there are pseudogenes found in humans and apes but not in chimps:
A truncated immunoglobulin epsilon pseudogene is found in gorilla and man but not in chimpanzee.
link
why are so many tests done on mice rather than on other primates? While it is also cheaper to do tests on mice, the real reason is that their bodily systems (especially the immune system) function more similarly to ours than do those of primates.
As has been the case with numerous nuclear DNA markers, there was no consensus among the HERV trees for the relationship among humans, chimpanzees, and gorillas (30). The remaining trees displayed interesting deviations from the predicted separation of the 5′ and 3′ LTR sequences.
link

notice how I post references to back up what I say, when all you can do is post ill-informed talking points?

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:42 AM

hat does this mean? It means that at some point in our past that the common ancestors to chimpanzees and humans were infected with virus who’s “stamp” got passed down from generation to generation.

We ARE the fifth great ape… Get over it.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:19 AM

I will admit YOU and your unevolved evolutionists are…

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:44 AM

Again R4L… you’re using creation scientists talking points… (see how that works? You can claim I use talking points, as I can with you)

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:45 AM

I will admit YOU and your unevolved evolutionists are…

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:44 AM

aha! so we did evolve! wow, I got you to admit it LMFAO!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:46 AM

the link you provided is a well known TALKING POINTS website for the Discovery Institute R4L…

Too bad its creationist origins discredit your links my friend.

Find a non-biased site to give me a link from…

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:50 AM

Again R4L… you’re using creation scientists talking points… (see how that works? You can claim I use talking points, as I can with you)

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:45 AM

thats a lie…the first link is from an ID web site the other two are from ‘traditional’ science publications….nice try…lying for darwin, its what you do…

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:51 AM

the link you provided is a well known TALKING POINTS website for the Discovery Institute R4L…

Too bad its creationist origins discredit your links my friend.

Find a non-biased site to give me a link from…

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:50 AM

as usual you can’t dispute what they say…only ignore it.

since its a wacko ID site, surely you can discredit it easily, right?? LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:52 AM

the other two are from ‘traditional’ science

the other THREE

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:52 AM

Casey Luskin is a freaking dweeb ID proponent…

what did you expect him to say other than the facts that real Evolutionists give to show that we’re a primate aren’t true?

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:52 AM

as usual you can’t dispute what they say…only ignore it.

since its a wacko ID site, surely you can discredit it easily, right?? LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:52 AM

I don’t have to recreate the wheel R4L… Casey Luskin has already been shown, along with Michael Behe and all the other ID proponents, to be a liar and a charlatan.

I’m not wasting my time with it… I don’t need to. I already know it. If you or others want to go look it up, be my guest.

loser

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:54 AM

the first link is from the IDEA center..

the next is from the U.S. National Library of Medicine
National Institutes of Health

the next is from Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A

and the last is from the proceedings of the national academy of sciences of the USA

your lies are just laughable.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:55 AM

I don’t have to recreate the wheel R4L… Casey Luskin has already been shown, along with Michael Behe and all the other ID proponents, to be a liar and a charlatan.

I’m not wasting my time with it… I don’t need to. I already know it. If you or others want to go look it up, be my guest.

loser

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:54 AM

yeah thats why miller spends so much time trying to disprove what they say…but if what they say is religion, then how could miller claim to disprove it, and why would he waste his time?

if it wasn’t science he couldn’t disprove it…get a clue.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:56 AM

just go look up the transcripts of the Kitzmiller vs Dover trial…

Your shining star Michael Behe got his ass handed to him by Ken Miller and Co in that trial…

What Id proponents are trying to do is akin to reworking all of science such that Astrology will have to be taught alongside Astronomy, as Behe essentially admitted in the court case.

LMFAO@ Right4Life… you are SUCH a loser! bwhahahahahahaa!!!!!!!!!!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:57 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:54 AM

lets see how well you can think for yourself….

explain the tuatara, which has the fastest rate of DNA evolution ever found…and is a living dinosaur…

Tuatara Genes Are Running in Place 03/24/2008
March 24, 2008 — One would expect a living fossil to show extreme stasis at the genetic level. Not so for the tuatara, a New Zealand reptile, reported EurekAlert: researchers found that “although tuatara have remained largely physically unchanged over very long periods of evolution, they are evolving – at a DNA level – faster than any other animal yet examined.”

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/cp-ttf032008.php

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 10:58 AM

just go look up the transcripts of the Kitzmiller vs Dover trial…

Your shining star Michael Behe got his ass handed to him by Ken Miller and Co in that trial…

What Id proponents are trying to do is akin to reworking all of science such that Astrology will have to be taught alongside Astronomy, as Behe essentially admitted in the court case.

LMFAO@ Right4Life… you are SUCH a loser! bwhahahahahahaa!!!!!!!!!!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:57 AM

oh yeah a judge decides what is ‘science’ too funny…just more proof what fascists you darwiniacs are, and how desperate you are that you have to sue to silence any questioning of your faith.

actually behe came out looking pretty good…the judge was a darwiniac wacko who just used the ACLU (you know the group that defends NAMBLA) talking points…

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM

LMFAO@
SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 10:57 AM

your first true statement…you are fat. its been rather obvious you’re as fat as you are stupid.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:01 AM

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1392
And the Miller Told His Tale: Ken Miller’s Cold (Chromosomal) Fusion (Updated)
by Casey Luskin

People like Luskin and others at the Discovery Institute are going out and getting degrees to give their creationist tripe more weight…

Anyone can get a degree, but once they start spouting their creationist tripe, the gig is up R4L!

bwhahahahahaha!

You are freaking hilarious you know that!

You are pricelessly cute!

awwwwww, look at the creationist trying to act all scientific! :-)

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:01 AM

They probably purchased their degrees at a diploma mill like Liberty University!

LOL!!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:02 AM

You are freaking hilarious you know that!

You are pricelessly cute!

awwwwww, look at the creationist trying to act all scientific! :-)

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:01 AM

your desperation is palpable..looks like the truth hurts LOSER

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:02 AM

They probably purchased their degrees at a diploma mill like Liberty University!

LOL!!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:02 AM

its more than obvious you never got one

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:03 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:02 AM

let see you can’t deal with what the ID people state..so you have to try to discredit them…like any good propogandist…

and you totally ignore the other 3 links…LOL

what a pathetic loser you are.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:04 AM

lets post some more from that site…just to illustrate your stupidity…

Under Neo-Darwinism, genetic mutation events (including chromosomal aberrations) are generally assumed to be random and unguided. Miller’s Cold-Fusion tale becomes more suspicious when one starts to ask harder questions like “how could a fusion event get fixed into a population via random and unguided processes, or how could it result in viable offspring?” Miller’s account must overcome two potential obstacles:

(1) In most of our experience, individuals with randomly-fused chromosomes or extra chromosomes can be normal, but it is very likely that their offspring will ultimately have a genetic disease. A classic example of such is a cause of Translocation Down’s syndrome, where part of chromosome 21 become fused to another chromosome, resulting in extra material from chromosome 21 in an individual, causing Down’s syndrome.

(2) One way around the problem in (1) is to find a mate that also had an identical chromosomal fusion event or chromosomal splitting event. But this would require a rare mutant finding a mate with identical traits. Valentine and Erwin explain that the odds of rare-mutants finding mates with identical traits are highly unlikely:
“[T]he chance of two identical rare mutant individuals arising in sufficient propinquity to produce offspring seems too small to consider as a significant evolutionary event.”

(Erwin, D..H., and Valentine, J.W. “‘Hopeful monsters,’ transposons, and the Metazoan radiation”, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci USA, 81:5482-5483, Sept 1984)

In other words, Miller has to explain why a random chromosomal fusion event which, in our experience ultimately results in offspring with genetic diseases, didn’t result in a genetic disease and was thus advantageous enough to get fixed into the entire population of our ancestors. Given the lack of empirical evidence that random chromosomal fusion events are not disadvantageous, perhaps the presence of a chromosomal fusion event is not good evidence for a Neo-Darwinian history for humans.

your inability to deal with what they say speaks volumes.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:06 AM

LOL@Right4Life

bwhahahahaha! only losers call other people names as much as you do R4L…

The last resort of any loser is name calling, something you do exceedingly well at.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:06 AM

your inability to deal with what they say speaks volumes.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:06 AM

I don’t have to. Why recreate the wheel, and besides, its not like you’re gonna listen anyway.

You’ve got your worldview that colors your thought processes… Keep it up!

bwhahahaha!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:07 AM

The last resort of any loser is name calling, something you do exceedingly well at.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:06 AM

you’re a buffoon, and you prove it with every post…why don’t you just explain to us, using all your ‘scientific’ knowledge, why what I posted from the IDEA center is wrong….

its more than obvious why you can’t LOL

LOSER.

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:09 AM

I don’t have to. Why recreate the wheel, and besides, its not like you’re gonna listen anyway.

You’ve got your worldview that colors your thought processes… Keep it up!

bwhahahaha!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:07 AM

its becasue you can’t…just like you can’t deal with those other 3 quotes….

you’re a typical darwiniac propogandist uneducated and easily led.

you are good for a few laughs though….LOSER

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:10 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:07 AM

still waiting for you to refute any of those links…

and explain why the tuatara is a living dinosaur with all the ‘evolving’ going on….

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:12 AM

LOL@right4life!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:13 AM

I’m done with you… you’ve shown your true colors enough for my edification.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:13 AM

LOL@right4life!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:13 AM

thanks for making yourself look stupid…I knew you could do it!!

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:14 AM

I’m done with you… you’ve shown your true colors enough for my edification.

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:13 AM

oh are you not going to post to me anymore, like you lied about in the other thread??

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:14 AM

damn I love exposing these brain-dead darwiniacs…its SO easy

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:16 AM

LOL!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:16 AM

Lie to yourself enough and you’ll believe it, just like you believe a god would have to sacrifice himself, to himself, to save us lowly humans from himself!

LMFAO!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:18 AM

Lie to yourself enough and you’ll believe it, just like you believe a god would have to sacrifice himself, to himself, to save us lowly humans from himself!

LMFAO!!!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:18 AM

He sure didn’t save your from your stupidity obviously…LOL LMAO (and it ain’t fat, so unlike yours) LOSER

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:19 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:18 AM

oh and fat boy, we’ll see who has the last laugh!! LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:20 AM

LOL! why do you keep bringing up the word fat when someone says LMFAO!…

LMFAO means laughing my freaking (really fU@king) ass off…

dumbass doesn’t even know the acronym

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:20 AM

Maybe you thought it meant fat because you were projecting? ;-P

LOL!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:21 AM

Maybe you thought it meant fat because you were projecting? ;-P

LOL!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:21 AM

maybe I thought it meant fat because thats what it means…you’re exhibiting your stupdity again…LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:22 AM

dumbass doesn’t even know the acronym

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:20 AM

LOL so you have your own double secret meaning huh??? LOL what a buffoon…breathtaking stupidity…keep diggin that hole!!! BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHH

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:23 AM

its fu@king ass off… not fat ass, fat ass

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:24 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:21 AM

are you for real? I mean no one can be THAT idiotic…wow…

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:24 AM

not fat ass, fat ass

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:24 AM

it is fat ass….fat ass

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:25 AM

You’re so fat, your husband has to roll over 3 times and take a bus ride just to get off you… LOL!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:25 AM

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:24 AM

all that fat has gone to your head…sitting on your brains all the time has made them mushy!!!

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:26 AM

You’re so fat, your husband has to roll over 3 times and take a bus ride just to get off you… LOL!

SauerKraut537 on February 7, 2011 at 11:25 AM

and you still think I’m a girl…damn you’re dumb fat gurl!! LOL

right4life on February 7, 2011 at 11:26 AM

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