Egypt in flames: Mubarak’s family leaves, army siding with protesters? Update: Restraint urged by … Iran; Update: U.S. response “disappointing,” says ElBaradei; Update: U.S. wants “managed change”
posted at 12:50 pm on January 29, 2011 by Allahpundit
Question mark in the headline because no one’s certain of anything at the moment. The Mubarak family dynasty in Egypt is over before it began so it’s no surprise if they’ve all bugged out, but I can’t find confirmation right now. BBC World tweeted that his sons are in London, then quickly followed up by noting that Egyptian state television denies it. Al Jazeera also reported that the Mubarak boys have skedaddled — and added that his much-hated wife, Suzanne, is now on her way to Britain too. Mubarak named Omar Suleiman, the country’s intelligence chief, as vice president this morning, and Suleiman’s been touted as a possible transitional successor before, so maybe this is a prelude to Hosni himself hopping a plane. If so, he must have declined to give Obama a heads up because State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley is grumbling on Twitter that Mubarak needs to do more than merely “shuffle the deck.”
As the army takes over basic law-and-order functions in Cairo, the state police have reportedly cleared out and dropped back to defend their own home base, the Interior Ministry. The money question, then: Which way is the army leaning? The plural of anecdote is not data, but there sure are a lot of reports on the wires today about Egyptian troops making nice with protesters. The NYT:
Even as pockets of protesters clashed with police, army tanks expected to disperse the crowds in central Cairo and in the northern city of Alexandria instead became rest points and even, on occasion, part of the protests as anti-Mubarak graffiti were scrawled on them without interference from soldiers.
“Leave Hosni, you, your son and your corrupted party!” declared the graffiti on one tank as soldiers invited demonstrators to climb aboard and have their photographs taken with them…
In another central Cairo square on Saturday a soldier in camouflage addressed a crowd through a bullhorn declaring that the army would stand with the people.
“I don’t care what happens,” the soldier said. “You are the ones who are going to make the change.” The crowd responded, “The army and the people will purify the country.”
WaPo:
Asked if they would enforce the curfew, soldiers said they would not.
“We are with the people,” said Ahmed, a 20-year-old conscript.
Soldiers accepted fruit, water and soda handed out by protesters in Tahrir Square and smiled as protesters chanted, “Go, Mubarak, go!” Children were hoisted up on tanks in the middle of the square to have their photos taken with troops as the hulking remains of the National Democratic Party headquarters building, home to Mubarak’s ruling organization, burned in the background.
“These soldiers are Egyptians, too. They are suffering just like we are,” said Khalid Ezz el-Din, a 50-year-old businessman who had come to the square to demand Mubarak step down.
NBC:
One army captain joined the demonstrators, who hoisted him on their shoulders while chanting slogans against Mubarak. The officer ripped a picture of the president.
Al Jazeera’s Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Cairo, said that soldiers deployed to central Cairo are not intervening in the protests.
“Some of the soldiers here have said that the only way for peace to come to the streets of Cairo is for Mubarak to step down,” he said.
For background on the army’s relationship with Mubarak, read Michael Wahid Hanna at the Atlantic. If they side with the protesters and Mubarak goes down, they risk losing some of the special privileges he’s granted them to keep them on his side. If they side with Mubarak, then no matter the outcome, they’ll lose the unique esteem they enjoy among the Egyptian public. Fun fact about U.S. aid to Egypt: Of the $1.5 billion we send it every year, the vast majority goes to the military. We have leverage here, in other words, which we could use to nudge the military to drop Mubarak and Suleiman and replace them with a liberal caretaker government that will enact popular reforms before the elections in September. See this post from last night for more on that. On the other hand, both Mubarak and Suleiman are former military men themselves. Would the Egyptian army really depose both, or would Suleiman be kept on as a transitional figurehead?
Lots of updates coming, so please stand by.
Update: How confident is the White House about Mubarak hanging on? Not very:
A senior Obama administration official, meanwhile, said Friday evening that Mubarak’s speech was “hardly conciliatory and highly disappointing, but what did you expect?”
It’s clear, the official said — speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter — that Mubarak believes he can ride this out, “and this time, we’re not so sure that is the right assumption.”
As for the claims coming from Axelrod and other spokesmen that The One has confronted Mubarak about human rights in private, read this debunking from Politico. In particular, they’re trying to spin Obama’s choice of Cairo as the site of his speech to the Muslim world in 2009 as proof that he was aiming his remarks on liberalization at Mubarak. Not so, of course; the speech didn’t mention rights in Egypt specifically and the symbolism of choosing Cairo could well be read as a pat on the back for Mubarak for having kept the peace with Israel and held the Islamists at bay.
Update: If you’re having flashbacks to Baghdad 2003 and wondering how the antiquities at the Egyptian Museum are faring, there’s good news and bad news. The bad:
Looters broke into the Egyptian Museum during anti-government protests late Friday and destroyed two Pharaonic mummies, Egypt’s top archaeologist told state television…
“I felt deeply sorry today when I came this morning to the Egyptian Museum and found that some had tried to raid the museum by force last night,” Zahi Hawass, chairman of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said Saturday.
The good news: Not only did the army roll up and storm the museum to secure the artifacts (replete with beatings for the looters), Egyptian citizens converged on the building before they got there and formed a “human chain” around it to stop anyone else from breaking in. I wonder Were the looters just moronic kids out to wreck whatever they could wreck, or was this some sort of Islamist gesture against Egypt’s pre-Muslim culture? That sort of thing has, after all, happened before. Bad, bad sign if it’s the latter.
Update: Speaking of Islamists, what’s the Muslim Brotherhood up to today? Why, screaming about injustice and vowing to topple tyrants, of course. Quoth the group’s “spiritual leader”:
“He doesn’t live in our world. He doesn’t feel the anger and hunger of this people,” [Sheikh Yusuf] al- Qaradawi charged. “He’s detached from reality. Mubarak must give up his position and leave Egypt. There is no other solution, except for Mubarak’s departure.”…
Addressing the president directly, al-Qaradawi made his demands clear: “Go away, Mubarak, leave this people alone! Enough, you’ve ruled for 30 years already! Dozens have been killed in one day. You cannot stay, Mubarak!”
“On behalf of hundreds of thousands of religious clerics in Egypt and in the Muslim world I’m calling on you to leave your country,” he said.
If you’re looking for a short yet solid “big think” piece on what the protests mean for regional policy, see this one by Robert Kaplan at Foreign Policy. Short and sweet: He thinks the Brotherhood’s power in Egypt is overstated (and that the public’s focus on its own oppression instead of on Israel is a hopeful development), but if the uprisings spread to places like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, look out. In fact, the Jordanian chapter of the Brotherhood is holding a protest today outside Egypt’s embassy there in hopes of kickstarting a little local revolution of its own. Quote: “Obama must understand that the people have woken up and are ready to unseat the tyrant leaders who remained in power because of U.S. backing.”
As for Kaplan’s claim that the Brotherhood in Egypt isn’t as muscular as everyone thinks, take a long hard look at these public opinion numbers via Michael Totten:
In Egypt, 30 percent like Hizballah (66 percent don’t). 49 percent are favorable toward Hamas (48 percent are negative); and 20 percent smile (72 percent frown) at al-Qaida. Roughly speaking, one-fifth of Egyptians applaud the most extreme Islamist terrorist group, while around one-third back revolutionary Islamists abroad. This doesn’t tell us what proportion of Egyptians want an Islamist government at home, but it is an indicator.
In Egypt, 82 percent want stoning for those who commit adultery; 77 percent would like to see whippings and hands cut off for robbery; and 84 percent favor the death penalty for any Muslim who changes his religion.
Asked if they supported “modernizers” or “Islamists” only 27 percent said modernizers while 59 percent said Islamists…
Alternate headline: “So that’s why Obama is sticking by Mubarak!” And if that’s not enough to make you despair, see Caroline Glick’s new op-ed. Apparently Mohamed ElBaradei, the alleged great secularist hope, is quite comfortable with the Brotherhood and its “peaceful” ways.
Famous last words from a protester, as quoted by WaPo: “We need a just government. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Islamic or secular. The issue is justice.”
Update: Here’s a healthy development per Stratfor, via the Corner:
The Egyptian police are no longer patrolling the Rafah border crossing into Gaza. Hamas armed men are entering into Egypt and are closely collaborating with the MB [Muslim Brotherhood]. The MB has fully engaged itself in the demonstrations, and they are unsatisfied with the dismissal of the Cabinet. They are insisting on a new Cabinet that does not include members of the ruling National Democratic Party.
Update: Ladies and gentlemen, your Orwellian moment of the day:
Saying it is closely monitoring developments in Egypt, Iranian officials asked Egypt’s government to exercise restraint while working to solve the crisis.
Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Ramin Mehman-Parast urged Egyptian officials to ensure the lawful rights of citizens to organize and voice their concerns about the government, Fars News Agency reported.
Try to imagine him stepping on an Iranian protester’s face while he said that. Iran’s “green revolution” leader, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is also watching the protests, but I haven’t heard of any new demonstrations breaking out there in response.
Meanwhile, the Saudi monarchy is reacting just as you’d expect:
Saudi King Abdullah called Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and “was reassured” about the situation in Egypt, the state-run Saudi Press Agency reported.
“During the call, the king said, ‘Egypt is a country of Arabism and Islam. No Arab and Muslim human being can bear that some infiltrators, in the name of freedom of expression, have infiltrated into the brotherly people of Egypt, to destabilize its security and stability and they have been exploited to spew out their hatred in destruction, intimidation, burning, looting and inciting a malicious sedition,’” the news agency said.
Saudi Arabia “strongly condemns” the protest, it said.
Mahmoud Abbas is also lining up with Mubarak, natch, as Hamas lines up with the Muslim Brotherhood. Secularists vs. Islamists, all around the region, and beyond the region it’s autocrats vs. democrats. Which explains why “Egypt” is now a forbidden term on China’s version of Twitter.
Update: Ah, here’s news of an Iranian protest now. And it’s even more Orwellian than the previous update.
Update: With Mubarak teetering and the Muslim Brotherhood licking its chops, how’d you like to be a Coptic Christian in Egypt right now?
“One thing I want to say about all of these young people and all of these university students is what they’re learning in the universities is very similar to what the Muslim Brotherhood preaches,” [John] Bolton said. “So we have to worry about the radicalism among the students is very, very high.”…
The Copts, who constitute between 10 and 20 percent of Egypt’s population and whose church traces its founding back to St. Mark the Evangelist, have been increasingly targeted by Islamic extremists in recent years and have suffered intense persecution.
Copts complain Muslims are able to get away murdering them with impunity much like whites did in the South under Jim Crow, and the government discriminates against them by placing restrictions on the building and repair of churches while not imposing a similar rule on mosques.
Just wondering: If the Islamists take power and the Copts flee, where do they go? Ethiopia?
Update: “If the ’79 agreement goes asunder, everything falls apart. Everything falls apart.”
Update: New video from Al Jazeera of the Egyptian military sympathizing with protesters but pleading with them to clear the streets at night so that the army can go after looters. Looks like it’s working: According to the 9:46 p.m. update at Al Jazeera’s liveblog, Cairo is noticeably less active tonight than last night — apart from “roaming bands of thuggish-looking men.” The Times, in fact, is reporting street battles between looters and neighborhood patrols who are trying to fill the security gap now that the state police have retreated.
If you want to see what the looters managed to do the Egyptian Museum last night, you’ll find distressing photos here.
Update: Here’s Bolton on last night’s Greta. The money line: This is not the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
Update: Banks, supermarkets, electronics stores, even wealthy homes: No one’s safe from the looters right now, apparently. Mubarak and his security goons may not have abdicated by law, but there appear to have done so in fact.
Update: Here’s a wrinkle from John Tabin that somehow got lost in yesterday’s buzz about the U.S. secretly supporting Egyptian dissidents. Apparently, Obama ended funding for that program:
It didn’t have to be this way.
During the Bush years the US embassy in Cairo maintained a small fund to support groups promoting democratic reforms in Egypt, bypassing the Egyptian government. As I noted back in July, the Obama administration ended support for this fund.
The Daily Telegraph — while failing spectacularly at making this context clear — reports that according to a WikiLeaked cable, one of the activists who has been arrested this week was sent to New York to meet with other pro-democracy activists. You have to read to the bottom of the story to notice that the embassy apprently ended regular contact with this dissident after 2009.
Here’s Tabin’s piece in July noting that funding was cut. It figures that of all the federal programs that need cutting, this is one of the few that caught the White House’s eye.
Update: I don’t care what ElBaradei thinks — as noted on Thursday, his international reputation stems from being a UN-blessed apologist for Iran’s proliferation efforts — but some Egyptians might, so for what it’s worth:
As for the U.S., ElBaradei said the leadership had fallen short of Egyptians’ expectations.
“What is … very disappointing to the Egyptian people is the message coming from the U.S., which is saying that we are going to work with the Egyptian people and with the government,” he said. “Well, you have to make a choice. This is an authoritarian government and on the other hand the people have been deprived of their freedom for 58 years.”
Yeah, I flagged that “government and people” bit of Obama’s speech yesterday as soon as he said. There are giant landmines on both sides of this showdown so he’s going to stand as still as he can by equivocating between them, which amounts to tacitly endorsing Mubarak’s regime for the time being. Total bummer for the Muslim Brotherhood’s would-be secular figurehead.
Update: I’ve been assuming that the U.S. is now committed to easing Mubarak out the door as a way of transitioning to democracy, but after reading this I’m not so sure. When they say “managed change,” do they mean changing Egypt’s form of government or just the identity of the man at the top of the dictatorship?
A senior administration official said the United States is looking for “‘managed change’ – adjustments over a fairly extended period of time that allows you to manage it in a fairly orderly way.”
While the administration is pressing for the opposition groups and civil activists to be given more political influence, “that doesn’t necessarily mean the governing coalition will be swept away, not at all,” the official said…
The senior administration official said Egypt can’t go back to the old way of government.
“Change is coming, in some form,” he said.
I don’t think President-for-life Suleiman is what the protesters have in mind, even if he revokes emergency rule and adopts some reforms.
Update: How high is the death toll, exactly? Maybe a lot higher than you think.
Update: More signs of chaos, some possibly good and some quite bad.
Update: The meaning of “managed change” is coming into focus. According to an expert who spoke to the Times, naming Suleiman VP and de facto successor is a way of keeping the military onboard:
Mr. Suleiman, a former general, is also the establishment’s candidate, not the public’s. His appointment, and his elevation if it is to occur, would represent not the democratic change called for on the street, but most likely a continuation of the kind of military-backed, authoritarian leadership that Mr. Mubarak led for nearly 30 years, experts said.
“I think basically this is a way of paving the way for a military-led regime in a so-called constitutional context,’ said Ragui Assaad, a professor at the University of Minnesota. “It is clearly the result of negotiations with the army.”
Mr. Suleiman’s ascension may incite public anger — crowds have already begun shouting chants against him — but would also be likely to put at ease those who benefited from the status quo, at least in the short term.
Presumably, the feeling in the White House is that they’re happy to carry on indefinitely with Suleiman as a new Mubarak so long as Egyptians are willing to tolerate it. If they push back and the protests persist, then I assume the plan will be to make Suleiman a “caretaker” figure until elections are held in September.









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Obama-CodePink-Weathermen behind Mubarak’s overthrow?
Terp Mole on January 29, 2011 at 6:54 PM
great work. something even more stupid and more batsh1t than the stuff tigerlily’s pulling out her rumpled backsack.
audiculous on January 29, 2011 at 6:58 PM
petunia on January 29, 2011 at 6:44 PM
Yes, I do agree that Iraq is better off w/out Saddam, but look how we have to prop them up. How much longer? How much more $$? Look what Iran has gotten away with in Iraq. What will happen when we leave? Lots of peeps are saying we never should have gone into Iraq. I disagree. That is not where we messed up.
Since GWB is gone, no more anti-War protests? Where did all the peeps in high-dudgeon go? I also notice the steep decline in reporting our soldiers dying. Yet, there have been more dying under BHO than GWB. What happened to the grand idea of showing our soldier’s coffins as they return. That was a ZerObama “want” wasn’t it?
I am just pointing out this is a TERRIBLE equation…almost like a pyrric victory for USA…and the people of Egypt. If Egypt falls, it’s who actually takes over who will dictate how the people there will fair. History says something WORSE will rule…and I smell a Muslim theocracy taking over.
I could be wrong. It’s just terrible no matter how one slices it.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 6:58 PM
Assuredly sprung from the same cracker-jack staff of 30 year-old WH marxists that gave us that other winner, “smart power”. And btw, it’s President WTF, bub.
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:00 PM
LOL. What if he looks like his namesake??? (h/t Key West Reader) That would be too much hotness even for HotAir. Who doesn’t totally dig purple lips?
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:06 PM
I support managed change. Egypt’s too much of a strategic and vital country to just be let loose by protesters, no matter how good their intentions are. They call us hypocrites-I call them absolutely clueless.
Puerto Rico was a strategic position for the US way back then; that’s why we are still a US Territory.
Yes, they can battle for their freedom-but someone trustworthy must be at the helm for the world’s balance. Luke 21 still resonates with me.
ProudPalinFan on January 29, 2011 at 7:15 PM
you have a pair or two of them?
audiculous on January 29, 2011 at 7:15 PM
The one thing Obama could have done right, he does the opposite. The money probably went to condoms for middle schoolers instead.
pedestrian on January 29, 2011 at 7:15 PM
Terp Mole on January 29, 2011 at 6:54 PM
Jeez!!!!! This is even worse than those dopes protesting for the Egyptian revolution!!
Useful idiots. Their dumb heads will be first on the chopping block when the Jihadis take over.
Wonder what those fools think of that Talaban stoning snuff film? Liberals are beyond contempt!!!
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 7:16 PM
If ever there was a troll, this POS is it. Adds nothing to the conversation while desperately trying to throw the topic of coarse and into the gutter.
Terp Mole on January 29, 2011 at 6:54 PM
Nice post. Legit questions/concerns.
Keemo on January 29, 2011 at 7:19 PM
It’s amazing how the usual suspects can always be found right where you know they’ll be…thank you for posting that.
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:21 PM
I don’t understand the relationship between Progressives and the Islamic jihad movement. I can’t help but to wonder who’s playing who. Both movements are ripe with scum hell bent on killing and destruction. No questioning they are working together, but for what common goal. In the end, one of them would be slaughtering the other.
Keemo on January 29, 2011 at 7:22 PM
CNN headline ‘Without Police Cairo like Wild West’
so much for taking the air out of any Barry gun control efforts. Thanks, CNN!
Limerick on January 29, 2011 at 7:23 PM
I think it’s simply a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. They’ll unite in common cause to destroy the Christian West, and when they don’t need each other, it will be Thunderdome between them. Each thinks they’ll defeat the other when they have extinguished all that ever made the world civilized and good. God forbid this should ever happen, but theoretically, my money would be on the muzzies.
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:32 PM
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:32 PM
Yes, I agree! The dopey left will be too hindered by PCness and the Muzzies don’t give a shiite about that.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 7:36 PM
And here folks we see the authoritarian beast that lurks in the hollow hypocritical heart of “freedom lovers” on the right. Translate = “We need a strongman.”
Grow Fins on January 29, 2011 at 7:39 PM
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:32 PM
Yes, the muzzies would slaughter the lefties in a matter of days. My money goes on freedom loving humans who have spent the last two years arming themselves while purchasing enough rounds for a large battle. Here where I live (Montana) the freedom loving humans are not in a good mood.
Keemo on January 29, 2011 at 7:41 PM
The muzzies take a back seat to no one when it comes to hideous savagery. If they ever got a chance to get their hands on the Christian West, they would make mao and stalin look lame.
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:43 PM
God bless us all!!! The pendulum is swinging ever lower….
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 7:45 PM
ladyingray on January 29, 2011 at 7:49 PM
MUSEUMS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL SITES OUTSIDE OF CAIRO ARE ATTACKED, LOOTED.
Mutnodjmet on January 29, 2011 at 7:50 PM
OT: Hey I just noticed that nobody got excited about a bump in approval from the SOTU. I just checked RCP and I can’t detect a bounce at all. No bounce from the SOTU? Has that ever happened before?
petunia on January 29, 2011 at 7:54 PM
Here’s a reminder of the financial implications of what’s taking place in Egypt:
SA is certainly going to have a more regional play than what we’d see, but that drop is still pretty significant.
Weight of Glory on January 29, 2011 at 7:56 PM
Hey What happens when the Muslims in the UK start rioting? Are the Brits going to roll over and become a Islamic state?
Kjeil on January 29, 2011 at 7:58 PM
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/egypt-three-possible-outcomes/
More bad news…
Keemo on January 29, 2011 at 8:00 PM
Of course, no cultural revolution is complete without wiping out the past.
Limerick on January 29, 2011 at 8:01 PM
Grow Fins on January 29, 2011 at 7:39 PM
You’re a troll so I so not surprised that you fail to reckon that in the whole Egyptian affair that no true goodness can come out of it.
Mubarak is a dictator and rules with an iron fist. If the protestors succeed in a complete coup, than the TBD ruler will be even worse.
How does enlightened all-wonderful YOU see a unicorn-hair and pink, fuzzy bunnies ending? There isn’t one.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:01 PM
Unless you have been in a coma lately you should have noticed that the U.S. Army is not exactly very loyal to the United States Constitution now days. See the Kangaroo Court Witch Trial of LTC Terry Larkin done to not embarrass Dear Leader.
Murphy9 on January 29, 2011 at 8:03 PM
Notice this is a revolution without guns. The Egyptians don’t have a “2nd Amendment”, and taking up arms against their army would result in massive slaughter because handguns will lose against tanks and trained soldiers every time.
Yet in this country delusional gun fetishists imagine that citizens can apply “second amendment remedies” to change the leadership and replace the government if need be.
The people of Egypt may well succeed in deposing an entrenched 30 year dictator, and if they do, it will likely be done without firing a shot. Lesson: guns don’t overthrow governments; people do.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:03 PM
Reports coming in state that Hamas has joined in the fighting, and the death tolls are mounting quickly.
As predicted…
Keemo on January 29, 2011 at 8:05 PM
The trolls are out tonight. Maybe we can send these knowledgable folk to Cairo to help. They could ,um, explain it to the people.
katy the mean old lady on January 29, 2011 at 8:09 PM
katy the mean old lady on January 29, 2011 at 8:09 PM
They could be human shields; bout all they’re good for.
Keemo on January 29, 2011 at 8:12 PM
The people of Egypt may well succeed in deposing an entrenched 30 year dictator, and if they do, it will likely be done without firing a shot. Lesson: guns don’t overthrow governments; people do.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:03 PM
Gosh, you’re a dope.
Another pie-in-the-sky, unicorn hair, pink-fuzzy bunny ignoramous.
Do tell us, Chump, all the glorious freedoms and utopian dreams these Egyptians are gonna have once they topple Mubarak?
Did you see the Taliban stoning video this week? ‘Cuz that’s gonna be the reality of what’s in Egypts future. Guess you really liked and support that kinda torture.
Dope.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:15 PM
“The U.S. wants managed change” — Ha Ha Ha! Anyone who thinks the average Egyptian citizen cares about what the BO administration wants please raise your hand.
Actually, the unrest in Egypt is more about inflation and food prices than anything else. Since food prices are influenced heavily by U.S. dollars, we have the Fed and the BO administration to thank. Unintended consequences strike again, or should I say, the Dunce and Chief has struck again. I wonder who they’ll blame if radicals take control. One guess, Bush.
ClanDerson on January 29, 2011 at 8:16 PM
Non sequiturs and name calling.
NEXT!
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:18 PM
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:18 PM
LOL. Can’t answer the question can you?
C’mon. It’s the million dollar question and you can’t break the arguement.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:21 PM
If you want to address the substance of my post and lay off the name calling, we may have something to discuss. Otherwise I have no time for you.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:26 PM
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:26 PM
The substance of your post was saying that a revolution can happen w/out guns and that Egypt will succeed (to your delight) in winning their revolution sans guns.
I asked you what is your revolution gonna look like once they win? I want to know.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:32 PM
tigerlily: I have to agree with every assessment that you have posted re Dear Lead and his path of destruction via his Blackberry handlers.
onlineanalyst on January 29, 2011 at 8:32 PM
Managed Change is how you Win The Future!
BL@KBIRD on January 29, 2011 at 8:35 PM
Notice this is a revolution without guns. The Egyptians don’t have a “2nd Amendment”, and taking up arms against their army would result in massive slaughter because handguns will lose against tanks and trained soldiers every time.
Yet in this country delusional gun fetishists imagine that citizens can apply “second amendment remedies” to change the leadership and replace the government if need be.
The people of Egypt may well succeed in deposing an entrenched 30 year dictator, and if they do, it will likely be done without firing a shot. Lesson: guns don’t overthrow governments; people do.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:03 PM
I wonder what your thoughts are on the massive slaughter that will happen once HM is totally run out and a yet TBD theocracy takes over.
I’m thinking of Iran. Are you? I’m thinking about Lebanon. Are you? The French Revolution got the French Napoleon Bonapart. What are your thoughts on that?
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:36 PM
Ok so far.
No. I said it is likely. I cannot say they will succeed. They may well fail. And nowhere did express “delight” in what is happening in Egypt.
How should I know? The best minds in the administration don’t know. My only point is that the idea of an armed populace overthrowing the U.S. government is nothing more than an absurd fantasy. The American military has tanks, artillery, and fighter aircraft against the “right to bear arms”. A concept that might have viable in 1789 is a complete joke today.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:42 PM
There are many problems with your analysis, the chief of which is the assumption that an end has already been reached without the dirty means of guns. Egypt is at the very beginning of something; and for you to stand over it, declare it over and solved, and then attribute credit to certain means, is simply foolish.
Next, your understanding of our desire to maintain a healthy exercise of the 2nd amendment as somehow an example of being “fetishists” demonstrates an un-seriousness with which you’re approaching the subject.
Your recognition of there being a general lack of firearms (I’ve seen footage of civilians with rifles to combat looters on CNN tonight) among the citizens is fallaciously used by you to imply that some sort of “peaceful” means to achieve an end is taking place. I get that implication when you wrote this:
Yet this “deposing” (which again hasn’t happened yet) did not happen without violence. Buildings have been burned, police forces have been beaten, Molotov cocktails have been hurled, etc. For some reason you invalidate one mode of exerting violence (guns) but passively accept other modes of exerting violence (arson, assault).
Your conclusions are faulty, and I’ll continue to keep my guns.
Weight of Glory on January 29, 2011 at 8:43 PM
Yet in this country delusional gun fetishists imagine that citizens can apply “second amendment remedies” to change the leadership and replace the government if need be.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:03 PM
The part of your post applied BOLD to reminds me of a VERY successful Revolution. Hmmmm, could it be, possibly be the USA?
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:44 PM
Remember the domino theory? Bush and co. thought they might be able to inspire popular democratic movements in totalitarian Muslim countries by turning one or two sows ears (Iraq and Afghanistan) into silk purses (functioning democracies). Obama made sure this could not get going by leaving Iranians rebelling against their mullahs twisting in the wind and blowing out that small flame of freedom. He had already gone to Cairo and spoken in a code that encouraged Islamists in their push for power. Muslims were undeservedly lauded, their terrorism ignored, and their interests shared by the POTUS who declared he would defend Islam around the world. It was a green light to them.
Unlike Obama whose pro-Muslim mischief was calculated, Bush and co. were grievously misinformed by communists permeating the State Department and left out the key ingredients SECULAR and PRO-AMERICAN from their calculations. As soon as both Iraq and Afghanistan were allowed to choose sharia religious law instead of being dragged into the 21st century as Ataturk once dragged Turkey, both were condemned to stay primitive sinkholes.
Instead, the dominoes are starting to topple the Muslim brotherhood’s way. Turkey has been visibly backsliding into Islamism, Lebanon is run by Hezbollah, and now a kingpin Egypt is going with Jordan to follow. Obama has done everything he can to help the caliphate re-form and spread. He is a black and black hearted Muslim in the White House.
Murphy9 on January 29, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Quite possibly the lamest thing I’ve seen posted in a while. We don’t own guns in order to overthrow our government. We own them to:
1) Protect our private property. Which is why I’m sure that many Egyptians tonight are wishing they had firearms to protect themselves from the looting.
2) To remind our government officials that if they ever tried to go the dictator route, tear up the constitution and impose a totalitarian regime, well, it ain’t gonna be a cakewalk. Small arms can exact a horrible price in a guerilla war.
JohnInCA on January 29, 2011 at 8:47 PM
How should I know? The best minds in the administration don’t know. My only point is that the idea of an armed populace overthrowing the U.S. government is nothing more than an absurd fantasy. The American military has tanks, artillery, and fighter aircraft against the “right to bear arms”. A concept that might have viable in 1789 is a complete joke today.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:42 PM
Really, you don’t know? You have no idea? Really?
Now, try again…and see if you can use history to help you figure it out. At this point, Helen Keller knows what is most likely to transpire. You were bold enough to post your thought…don’t tell me that’s all you thought of. If so, why did you post your anti-2nd amendment diatribe?
Well, I’m glad you don’t like guns. You shoot your wad in one dud shot.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:49 PM
You are exactly the waste if time I thought you’d be.
Well done.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:53 PM
Look squishy, you want me to draw you a colored map on how screwed up Israel will be if things don’t go the RIGHT way? I saw it, and I don’t want Egypt nor its people or their history trashed by careless people that seek OUR destruction and wants us to worship Allah. (No offense, Allahpundit)
I don’t know if you care about Israel as much as I do; but Egyptians must make a clear decision soon on who their “George Washington” or their “Founding Fathers” will be. And this person must take control of a whole country, protect their borders, capture radical extremists and put them in prison…for starters.
We are watching a country rebuild itself amongst turmoil and anger. I don’t want anarchy on such a huge country, where radicals could care less about Egyptians-they are in for themselves, and their loyalties to Iran, et.al.
What’s our take on it? STRATEGIC PURPOSES.
ProudPalinFan on January 29, 2011 at 8:54 PM
Murphy9 on January 29, 2011 at 8:46 PM
BRA-voh!!!!!
Chump, did you read and comprehend Murphy?
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:54 PM
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:53 PM
You’re dismissed. It was not I, but you yourself that proved you are disgustingly mis-enformed. Get lost!
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 8:56 PM
Also, I forgot to mention, that one of the reasons why the protestors have been so successful so far, is that the military has not cracked down on them. In fact the NYTs is reporting tonight that some armored military vehicles have been used by the army to help protesters break through the police security forces. It’s easy (well easier)not to have to “fire a shot” when the guys with the biggest guns are in front of you doing the heavy pushing. The moment those armored vehicles decide to no longer support the protesters, those rocks, Molotov cocktails, and Twitter, wont seem so effective.
Seems like those protesters don’t share your views on how to carry out their goals: They hid behind the guns, they advanced behind the guns, they succeeded behind the guns, and they begged that they be fired on the police.
Weight of Glory on January 29, 2011 at 8:57 PM
NoStoppingChumpThreads is fun to kick around, as he peddles his ignorance claiming it to be wisdom.
Don’t be a stranger!
Inanemergencydial on January 29, 2011 at 8:57 PM
JohnInCA on January 29, 2011 at 8:47 PM
Exactly. You beat me to it. Troll baby completely misunderstands. Probably consciously.
Murphy9 on January 29, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Well said.
ORconservative on January 29, 2011 at 8:57 PM
You have no idea what you’re talking about. This “revolution” would be over already if the citizens were capable of returning fire. To make the assertion that an unarmed populace is more powerful than an armed populace is ridiculous. And one wouldn’t generally go into battle with handguns either, unless that’s all one had, which would still be better than nothing.
Don’t ever forget that even though the armies of the world generally have greater firepower than the citizenry, they’re still approaching the fight from a merc. perspective, meaning that they are just doing their job. They want to go home when their tour is up. The armed citizen fights FOR and FROM their homes in many cases. They fight for a belief that they deserve to be free from the tyranny that oppresses them – which is always a much harder foe to conquer – just ask the Soviets.
volnation on January 29, 2011 at 9:02 PM
Searching through the wayback machine to point out the “unholy alliance” between the Radical Left (progressives/communists) and Islam, here is a brief history:
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19637
The Left are dupes.
onlineanalyst on January 29, 2011 at 9:06 PM
(continued)
When I wrote “what’s our take on it” means that the putz in the WH wants this to happen. He wants and firmly believes that Muslims should topple Christians because for Obama, Islam is the “true religion.”
When I wrote “what’s our take on it” means that God-loving Americans that cherish their country and freedom from oppression-0and of religion-support Egyptians’ freedom efforts 110%. They got angry, and protested…now they are rewriting history, took down major pegs in their goverment but are now scared. What’s next?
If Obama didn’t bother to move carriers or battleships to the area, that pretty much tells you where he stands (unless it happened while I was still ill, today.)
ProudPalinFan on January 29, 2011 at 9:09 PM
How should I know? The best minds in the administration don’t know. My only point is that the idea of an armed populace overthrowing the U.S. government is nothing more than an absurd fantasy. The American military has tanks, artillery, and fighter aircraft against the “right to bear arms”. A concept that might have viable in 1789 is a complete joke today.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 8:42 PM
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
volnation on January 29, 2011 at 9:02 PM
Absolutely! This moron is an embarrassment to trolls. What a tool!
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Murphy9, you forgot areas of London, Spain and Portugal (wink wink.)
ProudPalinFan on January 29, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Wait a minute, I declared no such thing! I said it is “likely” but I hold open the possibility that I could be wrong. The simple fact is, the massive majority of protester have not been using guns, even if a few decide to take potshots at the police or army. My point is that an armed revolution by the Egyptian people would be happily crushed by Mubarak.
When Glocks fly off the shelves in AZ following the shooting of Rep. Giffords, there’s a serious gun fetish issue going on, in my opinion. It’s Sharron Angle who suggested that citizens might need to apply “second amendment remedies” to bring about change. And I’m just calling BS.
And you’ve incorrectly understood what I wrote. I simply said that the people of Egypt have not attempted to remove Mubarak by taking up arms against their government. That is undeniable. You are simply filling in your own ideas as opposed to understanding what I actually said.
Again, I said nothing about violence. I didn’t even say the events in Egypt were peaceful. You seem to be wishing I said things that I did not say.
Actually, your conclusions are faulty because they are based on straw man arguments.
And you can have all the guns you want. It’s your right.
chumpThreads on January 29, 2011 at 9:13 PM
I was wondering about the Rafah crossing and how that was holding up with all this nonsense going on. So now we learn that the Code Pink gang of 0′s soul mates have opened the crossing and that armed Hamas thugs have been pouring across and have been enhancing the forces of those enacting the violence and killing being conducted in Egypt.
Just more proof where the loyalties and politics of this corrupt marxist administration lie.
So the idiot in chief is not only working hard to destroy this country but to undermine friendly regimes around the world. Such evil has not previously been released on the us and the world.
shmendrick on January 29, 2011 at 9:16 PM
Only when you’ve arbitrarily defined “taking up arms” as excluding arson, assault, fire bombs, and guns by proxy though a sympathetic army that’s decided not to turn its guns upon you. I’ll stick to my conclusion that your analysis is woefully wanting. But hey, I’m just a gun fetishist, so why bother making your point clearer, right?
Weight of Glory on January 29, 2011 at 9:22 PM
Why is a State Department spokesman making comments on Twitter? Isn’t that rather unprofessional? I’m sure there’s a more appropriate forum for making his statements, no?
Big John on January 29, 2011 at 9:23 PM
In other news, heartbreak folks…
Jon Voight backs the Huckster
ProudPalinFan on January 29, 2011 at 9:24 PM
Michael Savage EXPLODES on Egypt riots
Nearly Nobody on January 29, 2011 at 9:26 PM
This is the same idiot that was opining on the newly passed AZ illegals law when he was in China.
onlineanalyst on January 29, 2011 at 9:35 PM
Nearly Nobody on January 29, 2011 at 9:26 PM
Thanks NN. Savage is right on this. Just as he was years ago saying Iran would reap the benefits of what we are doing in Iraq.
Gob on January 29, 2011 at 9:37 PM
I was in high school when Sadat got shot, and Mubarak took over.
I remember what a blow it was seen against peace, but then (naively) had hope that Mubarak would continue some sort of good things or something like that (high-school touchy-feely mind).
But then as Mubarak went on year after year as “president for life,” I guess I got sort of bitter, seeing Mubarak as a run-of-the-mill dictator for life.
In fact, as soon as Chavez took up the dictatorial crown, I thought of Mubarak.
So I will say that I am pretty clueless about Egypt. Strange geographic alignment, centered on the Nile. Crazy geopolitical location, with the Suez Canal.
But still, I have always been uncomfortable with Mubarak as a “president for life,” and somehow did always know that this day was coming.
The old-man-in-the-rocking-chair-on-the-porch question for me is:
Maybe Egyptians only feel comfortable with a long-term strongman type?
Are they not suited to democracy? Or has Mubarak just suppressed this instinct toward freedom?
If they were given a democracy, could/would they keep it?
Just front-porch musings…..
cane_loader on January 29, 2011 at 9:39 PM
In a culture where the major religion demands submission, it is difficult to conceive that democracy can thrive. Our culture and nation’s founding were rooted in the respect for the individual and the rights of man. Self-governing people have to have that foundation.
onlineanalyst on January 29, 2011 at 9:52 PM
Lesson: guns don’t overthrow governments; people do.
But people with guns have a much higher probability of success.
blink on January 29, 2011 at 9:54 PM
I’m shocked this didn’t happen in Turkey first.
SouthernGent on January 29, 2011 at 12:58 PM
Who says it hasn’t? The government in charge is pro-Islamist and intent on giving up Ataturkism,
ebrown2 on January 29, 2011 at 10:14 PM
Yes, years from now the, those in the know will sum up the obama presidency thusly: “TOTUS told him what to say, Blackberry told him what to do”. Children will chant it as they jump rope in the planet-wide gulags.
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 10:20 PM
Summed up by someone who knows.
Schadenfreude on January 29, 2011 at 10:39 PM
Murphy9, onlineanylist and all the rest of youse guys (well almost all): thanks for a great thread and some great analysis.
tigerlily on January 29, 2011 at 10:40 PM
Don’t let it be said that I don’t praise AP as much as I have criticized.
Excellent job keeping us informed, AP. Thanks.
Saltysam on January 29, 2011 at 10:47 PM
Nice
blink on January 29, 2011 at 11:21 PM
Watching this unfold it started to become clearer that Obama apparently wants the Muslim Brotherhood to ascend in Egypt but couldn’t say so outright.
I was thinking the way this would be approached is that Elbaradei would be presented as the palatable option and his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood glossed over or completely ignored with the willing aide of our Lame Stream Media.
Well, literally minutes after formulating in my mind that that’s how it would work, lo and behold,already tonight in the New York Times, right at the very end of this piece:
Sure enough: No mention of his association with the Muslim Brotherhood and deception on his connection to the protests.
Cindy Cooper on January 29, 2011 at 11:28 PM
The U.S. has had its brain removed. sorry. come back in 2 years.
johnnyU on January 30, 2011 at 12:15 AM
It’s all part of the Soros plan to destroy the USA. Oil is already on it’s way past $100 and may even reach $200 or higher. The Suez Canal will be in the hands of the people who spawned Al Queda and it’s debateable whether they would even allow western shipping to pass. In former times when something like this happened England and France invaded and made sure the canal would stay open and in friendly hands. Now that seems highly unlikely.
As oil prices skyrocket and food costs and home heating oil all follow the crisis will begin to hit home here. This is why some of the National Guards have been preparing for food riots and the sort of chaos we’re seeing in Egypt. Bottom up, top down, inside out. First riots and chaos, then a government clamp down, then the not so closet commies come out of the woodwork in the government and impose a marxist dictatorship here. That’s the plan folks and it’s proceding like clockwork. Question of the day is: Will we even have a 2012 election?
shmendrick on January 30, 2011 at 12:21 AM
Yes, Cindy. I wonder which “American officials” say this? Would they be part of Barry’s administration, pray tell?
I know one thing clearly: whatever the NYT and LSM tout is anathema to our well-being. El Baradei is no ‘outsider’ – he’s an insider, an Iranian shield re nukes, who suddenly popped up in the streets of Cairo.
The LSM is doing the biddings of Barry, Soros and their Islamist buddies.
I had always wondered whether Barry was a Sunni or Shiite. Now I know.
What will Saudi Arabia do?
Opinionator on January 30, 2011 at 12:42 AM
If Obama were thrown out of office this year by his rank incompetence, we could have a caretaker Plagiarist Joe until then.
profitsbeard on January 30, 2011 at 12:45 AM
wow, you folks have hit batsh1t crazy/stupid warp nine and a half.
drooling paranoid custerfluck.
audiculous on January 30, 2011 at 1:06 AM
I see you’ve taken your Dear Leader’s lessons in civility to heart. lol
Don’t you obey??
Opinionator on January 30, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Barackalicious
OmahaConservative on January 30, 2011 at 1:33 AM
Yep. Hahahaha..
Opinionator on January 30, 2011 at 1:38 AM
If Obama were thrown out of office this year by his rank incompetence, we could have a caretaker Plagiarist Joe until then.
profitsbeard on January 30, 2011 at 12:45 AM
With 0 it isn’t so much incompetence, although there’s plenty of that, it’s just that he’s basically just a puppet doing the bidding of his financier Soros. In addition he’s stocked his administration with scores of people like Van Jones who aren’t bashful about expressing their strategies or their end goals. He was the one who was happy to explain the Bottom up, top down, inside out system of overthrowing a government. He describes himself as a communist so I have to give him some credit for truth in labeling.
So even if 0 were to be impeached (something he richly deserves for violating his oath of office) and Biden took over it wouldn’t matter too much. The rest of the marxist apparatchiks would still go on enacting their plan. The new Congress will slowly begin to defund and dismantle their regulatory agenda but I’m afraid it may already be too wide spread into the government and have too much momentum to be seriously derailed.
shmendrick on January 30, 2011 at 1:40 AM
barackalicious. All alone and feeling sad; no takers to go round and round with him in his spinning hamster wheel. And still, his soft little pink feet pattering, running, the hamster wheel whirring; pink feet with tiny claws pattering, pattering……
tigerlily on January 30, 2011 at 1:41 AM
And to further quote you: “and still going nowhere”.
He’s funny, eh? In a sad sort of way :)
Opinionator on January 30, 2011 at 1:45 AM
And someone else posed the issue of anyone in Egypt (and likely everywhere else in Muslim-dominated Middle East) who identifies “with America” is on the down…
Well, how about we ask for our money back?
Anyone in D.C. thought of collecting on the debt?
Or have the U.S. billions every year sent to Egypt (for starters) simply been “gifts”?
Start by asking someone to repay their debts to us. It’d sure reveal who was working with us and who wasn’t.
Lourdes on January 30, 2011 at 1:47 AM
Agreed.
And, yes.
Lourdes on January 30, 2011 at 1:49 AM
tigerlily on January 30, 2011 at 1:41 AM
I wish. Actually I think he’s probably pretty happy right now as his master’s plan for totally messing up the Mid East is working like a charm. And the 0′s buddies, Ayers, Dohrn, and the Code Pink leaders (some more of Soros’s charmers) have teamed up to help unleash the heavily armed Hamas thugs who are now pouring across the Rafah crossing to bolster the Muslim Brotherhood’s thugs so they can hasten the MB’s take over of Egypt.
Generally, a bad day at black rock.
shmendrick on January 30, 2011 at 1:51 AM
I suppose. One must be charitable, after all.
OmahaConservative on January 30, 2011 at 1:53 AM
True, shmendrick. But he’ll also have to deal with We the People, Israel and the Sunnis. Never underestimate the other side of Islam.
Opinionator on January 30, 2011 at 1:56 AM
The ONLY reason I’m withholding condemnation of Mubarak at this hour — my intention is to wait a few more days and read more about more specifics though I do recognize his long-standing “term” in Office AND his age aren’t very good sales points in his favor — is because this “Muslim cleric” nutcase (your Ynet article, but my adjective) wants him out so desperately and is so keen on condemning him.
From that article:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4020733,00.html
Top cleric: Mubarak, go away!
Sheikh Qaradawi urges Mubarak to leave Egypt, says nobody can stop history from being made
The spiritual leader of the Muslim Brothers movement and one of the world’s most prominent Sunni clerics is urging Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to leave Egypt.
In an extraordinarily belligerent speech on al-Jazeera Saturday, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi said history was currently being made in Egypt, calling on the president to leave the country at once.
“He doesn’t live in our world. He doesn’t feel the anger and hunger of this people,” al- Qaradawi charged. “He’s detached from reality. Mubarak must give up his position and leave Egypt. There is no other solution, except for Mubarak’s departure.” (…)
I do wonder what sort of derangement inducing conditions and/or substances that people in the Middle East are exposed to (intentionally or not, but I think it’s intentional by culture and questionable familial conditions), because that statement right there (quoted here) is from a diseased mind, from someone with aberrant observational abilities.
The Muslim Brotherhood condemns Mubarak and on such irrational judgements as that — Mubarak’s out of touch with reality? Whatthe heck does the Muslim cleric think HE is? — and that alone indicates that we should at least allow Mubarak a few more days to be more revealed WITHOUT the Muslim Brotherhood dirtying the information pool.
Lourdes on January 30, 2011 at 1:57 AM
One must. LOL
Opinionator on January 30, 2011 at 1:57 AM
CORRECTED FORMATTING, apologies:
The ONLY reason I’m withholding condemnation of Mubarak at this hour — my intention is to wait a few more days and read more about more specifics though I do recognize his long-standing “term” in Office AND his age aren’t very good sales points in his favor — is because this “Muslim cleric” nutcase (your Ynet article, but my adjective) wants him out so desperately and is so keen on condemning him.
From that article:
I do wonder what sort of derangement inducing conditions and/or substances that people in the Middle East are exposed to (intentionally or not, but I think it’s intentional by culture and questionable familial conditions), because that statement right there (quoted here) is from a diseased mind, from someone with aberrant observational abilities.
The Muslim Brotherhood condemns Mubarak and on such irrational judgements as that — Mubarak’s out of touch with reality? Whatthe heck does the Muslim cleric think HE is? — and that alone indicates that we should at least allow Mubarak a few more days to be more revealed WITHOUT the Muslim Brotherhood dirtying the information pool.
Lourdes on January 30, 2011 at 1:57 AM
Lourdes on January 30, 2011 at 1:59 AM
Are we certain Barackalicious is a *he* and not a she?
I mean, the emotions spewed forth…
OmahaConservative on January 30, 2011 at 2:02 AM
The key is to avoid, at all costs, getting into that hamster wheel. My thanks to all who have realized this and acted accordingly, thereby making this thread hijack (and hamster) free, as well as intellectually stimulating and very informative.
tigerlily on January 30, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Yes, agreed.
Lourdes on January 30, 2011 at 2:03 AM
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