Would mandatory mental-health reporting have stopped Loughner?

posted at 10:55 am on January 19, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

After every tragic event, people try to figure out what could have stopped it.  In the case of the Tuscon shootings, the debate has finally turned from the ridiculous notion that people should stop using routine analogies lest we disturb the already-disturbed to what steps should be taken when we find someone dangerously disturbed in the first place.  After all, Pima Community College suspended Jared Lee Loughner and required a psychiatric clearance for him to return to the public school after staff and students became convinced that Loughner was dangerous.  Should they have been required to report Loughner to a mental-health facility?  Sally Satel and Jeffrey Geller say yes:

In fact, under Arizona law, any concerned party can petition the court for an Order for Treatment. If Loughner had been found “persistently and acutely disabled” by severe mental illness and “likely to benefit from treatment” — regardless of whether he had a weapon or was suicidal — an evaluation and subsequent care could have been court mandated.

Of course, hindsight is perfect. As incidents unfold in real time, most people are rightly skittish about infringing on a person’s freedom. But given Loughner’s troubling track record — the number of times the campus police were called to intervene; the pressing concerns of his teacher and of other students; and the very fact that the college would not re-admit him after his suspension without psychiatric clearance — it seems that a court petition could have been justified.

Good laws work only when applied, of course. And when Loughner did not return to school, Pima Community College was rid of a very troubled young man and his problems. It did what so many colleges, universities and businesses have done before: passed the problem along. …

Perhaps it is time to require action. When a school or business feels the need to protect itself from someone who is mentally ill, perhaps it should be required to try to protect others, too.

Thus, if a school or a business ejects or otherwise removes a student or employee out of concern about behavior and dangerousness, the principal, dean, or head of the Human Resources department would be required, under a mandatory reporting law, to inform the medical director of the appropriate public health jurisdiction. This public official would then have to initiate an evaluation that might lead to a face-to-face evaluation and, depending upon its outcome, possibly involuntary treatment.

Satel and Geller are on more solid ground when talking about public schools.  Those are public institutions, which exist for evaluation of both performance and behavior.  Working out a mandatory reporting system for public schools would be less complicated.  Even without such a mandate, though, one has to wonder why Pima Community College didn’t follow up on Loughner, other than the understandable relief at having put some distance between its faculty and student body and (at that time) a potentially dangerous young man.

The authors note that mandatory reporting already exists for issues like child abuse, which apply to both schools and medical clinics/hospitals.  The latter already have other mandatory reporting requirements for injuries from violent crimes, such as gunshots and knife wounds.  But again, medical clinics and hospitals exist to conduct health assessments already; adding a psychiatric mandate would add more complication but would be within the mission of the profession.  That, however, does not apply to businesses outside of the health profession.  In fact, it sets up the private sector to act as an expert in mental health when such an expertise lies far outside what they do.

Most businesses do not eject an employee for being crazy.  Thanks to wrongful-termination lawsuits over the last few decades, most business won’t fire anyone at all unless supervisors produce a clear track record of specific failures to perform, documented and corroborated by objective data.  Private-sector employers won’t fire someone over allegations of “dangerousness” alone; if they do, they’d better have lawyers on retainer to handle the lawsuit that inevitably would follow.  And once an employee gets terminated, the private-sector business has no obligation to anyone to act as an arbiter of mental health or to “report” their inexpert opinions to the government.

If we want to insist on mandatory reporting for entities when dangerous psychoses are suspected, let’s start first with those entities that are more equipped to diagnose those issues.  But let’s also realize the limitations of such mandates, and the danger of benign individuals getting caught in a trap where they are forced to prove their relative sanity, rather than having the government prove their insanity.


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Comment pages: 1 2 3

How is that different from this?
“We don’t sell firearms to cops, now get out of my store”

How soon will see discrimination laws updated to include “occupation” in this list “race, color, creed, sexual perversion, or religion”?

BobMbx on February 24, 2013 at 8:20 AM

hawksruleva on February 25, 2013 at 11:00 AM

The other difference is the police and other government agencies don’t typically have cops just walk into the store to buy something. They usually buy in bulk on a contract that goes through the Request For Proposals (RFP) process where the manufacturer or a wholesale distributor provides bids on what they will sell to the agency and for what price.

Besides, if it’s a gun store in a place like NY – he already can’t sell those weapons locally, so he’s not likely to have anything in the store anyway.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 11:24 AM

Nothing we’re going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that we will bring gun deaths down to a thousand a year from what we’re at now,” Biden told reporters after meeting with Senate Democrats in the Capitol.

J_Crater on February 25, 2013 at 11:40 AM

“Nothing we’re going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that we will bring gun deaths down to a thousand a year from what we’re at now,” Biden told reporters after meeting with Senate Democrats in the Capitol.

J_Crater on February 25, 2013 at 11:40 AM

I’d bet Romney’s $10k that violent crime rates go UP in the areas where law-abiding citizens’ gun rights are violated.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 11:49 AM

…I suppose it’s possible that a state could attempt to ‘strong-arm’ a native company (residing within a state), but I doubt it would end well for the state. Any company has the option of shutting their doors and moving to another location. Short of martial law (or outright seizure), the state can’t compel a company to remain ‘in business’… or engage in trade with an entity that had no contractual ties to, previous or otherwise.

I’ll leave to your imaginations as to what would happen if the above scenario was triggered.

For many folks, the phrase… ‘Game On’ comes to mind.

CPT. Charles on February 23, 2013 at 7:42 PM

But apparently Obama and his illegitimate NLRB can tell private companies where they may and may not build plants, witness Boeing. Every time somebody says but but but something-or-other can’t happen, I just laugh. Then groan.

Fenris on February 25, 2013 at 11:56 AM

Evidently, some ammunition companies are also refusing to sell to government – both because of 2d Amendment issues, and because of concerns about the quantity of ammunition some national government organizations are acquiring.

GWB on February 25, 2013 at 12:02 PM

Evidently, some ammunition companies are also refusing to sell to government – both because of 2d Amendment issues, and because of concerns about the quantity of ammunition some national government organizations are acquiring.

GWB on February 25, 2013 at 12:02 PM

Who’s doing this though?
Can’t find a comprehensive list anywhere. Jazz???

Also, from what I HAVE seen of the list, they’re mostly all small time companies – many I’ve never even heard of. So unless we see some big names join this list – S&W, Remington, Winchester, Colt, etc – I don’t see this causing much impact to the government entities they’re targeting.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM

… when it wasn’t the cops who crafted these laws …

Perhaps not. However, “the cops” are the “tool” of politician’s and WILL use their guns, without hesitation, to execute these crafted laws.

And by the way, “the cops” don’t function based upon law … they function upon chain-of-command orders.

Carnac on February 25, 2013 at 12:34 PM

Who’s doing this though?
Can’t find a comprehensive list anywhere. Jazz???

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM

I don’t recall which ammunition companies were cited. I seem to recall the information was on a firearms blog/forum. (Which I will never be able to find right now.)

GWB on February 25, 2013 at 12:47 PM

I don’t recall which ammunition companies were cited. I seem to recall the information was on a firearms blog/forum. (Which I will never be able to find right now.)

GWB on February 25, 2013 at 12:47 PM

I was hoping if Hot Air is going to post a thread on this topic, they would have a link to an actual comprehensive list somewhere.

I have the same problem with Fox News – way too many articles referring to photos or other things – but they don’t include the relevant photo or even links to it or other items.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 12:57 PM

GWB on February 25, 2013 at 12:47 PM

here you go:

blog 1
blog 2

Fenris on February 25, 2013 at 1:11 PM

Perhaps not. However, “the cops” are the “tool” of politician’s and WILL use their guns, without hesitation, to execute these crafted laws.

And by the way, “the cops” don’t function based upon law … they function upon chain-of-command orders.

Carnac on February 25, 2013 at 12:34 PM

.
If you believe LEO’s are Nazi’s willing to follow any order handed down the chain of command, you know nothing about LEO’s.

In my experience, they are MORE tuned in to the failings of politicians than your average person because they live with the “unintended consequences” politicians generate.

Please spare us your OWS, gramatically challenged ““the cops” are the “tool” of politician’s” nonsense.

I have never met a LEO/Mil who wanted to be on the wrong side of 100:1 odds – and 95% of both groups have NO illusions about what it would be likeif some jacka$$ politician ordered them to confiscate legally owned weapons.

PolAgnostic on February 25, 2013 at 1:17 PM

PolAgnostic on February 25, 2013 at 1:17 PM

I think it depends on the cops themselves and where they are.
My county sheriff has publicly stated he will NOT enforce any laws that violate the 2nd Amendment. Some of the city cops I’m not so sure about – although most of the cops I’ve known personally would more likely be on our side (us “gun nuts” that is) of this issue.
However, if you look at comments made by some chiefs/sheriffs from places like Baltimore and Chicago, I get the impression they seem to be very willing to run out and start confiscating weapons – from law-abiding citizens – probably not so quick from the gang-bangers who are the actual problem.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 1:52 PM

Nice sentiment…but still no sale.

LEO’s can defend their rights just like the rest of us have to, thank you very much!

MelonCollie on February 23, 2013 at 4:11 PM

if the LEO’s don’t like it .. vote the b*stards out that crafted this “law”

conservative tarheel on February 25, 2013 at 2:25 PM

oh and you can add Barrett to the list.

conservative tarheel on February 25, 2013 at 2:28 PM

blog 1
blog 2

Fenris on February 25, 2013 at 1:11 PM

Thanks for posting those lists.
However, now that I’ve seen the lists, they confirm my concern that this is mainly an advertising gimmick for the little guys who depend on the pro-gun civilian customer base. Don’t get me wrong – I’m all in favor of it. But I doubt these companies are major sources of weapons and equipment for government agencies – who typically buy in large quantities via RFP. So this will have little to no impact unless the big boys jump in. Until S&W, Remington, Glock, Winchester, and other big manufacturers/distributors get in, it’s kind of a hollow gesture – or perhaps a hollow point (ok – bad pun, couldn’t resist ;) ).

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 2:57 PM

So unless we see some big names join this list – S&W, Remington, Winchester, Colt, etc – I don’t see this causing much impact to the government entities they’re targeting.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM

Not going ot happen with Remington. That’s owned by Cerberus Capital Management, a notoriously left-wing company. They also own Bushmaster, DPMS Firearms, Marlin (owned by Remington),and Advanced Armament Corporation, all of which were organized under the umbrella of Freedom Group, which, last I checked, Cerberus was trying to dump after Sandy Hook. Don’t know if they succeeded, though.

totherightofthem on February 25, 2013 at 3:38 PM

Not going ot happen with Remington. That’s owned by Cerberus Capital Management, a notoriously left-wing company. They also own Bushmaster, DPMS Firearms, Marlin (owned by Remington),and Advanced Armament Corporation, all of which were organized under the umbrella of Freedom Group, which, last I checked, Cerberus was trying to dump after Sandy Hook. Don’t know if they succeeded, though.

totherightofthem on February 25, 2013 at 3:38 PM

Darn – I should have looked that up before I bought my Marlin .22. I had one back in HS and it was a decent little rifle, and they’re cheap, so I got another for target plinking. I guess I should have paid a bit more and got the Ruger.

dentarthurdent on February 25, 2013 at 3:47 PM

It just means the cops won’t get special deals for being cops

Sounds good to me

Feel sad for the good cops, if a couple years down the road, their bosses are buying them buffoon guns from the ‘bend over’ manufacturers willing to issue Bloomberg approved non hurtful weapons

entagor on February 26, 2013 at 3:56 PM

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