It begins: Was Loughner driven to kill by the music he was listening to?
posted at 9:57 pm on January 11, 2011 by Allahpundit
Sure, why not? If we’re going to start blaming cultural influences, let’s go nuts. (So to speak.) Weed, heavy metal, Sarah Palin — was there no dangerous stimulus to which this delicate mind wasn’t subjected?
In particular, a pounding metal song used as the soundtrack for the lone video Loughner marked as a favorite on YouTube — one in which an American flag is burned by a hooded man — contains lyrics that reference bodies hitting a floor. The video for the song itself — a 2001 release from the band Drowning Pool titled “Bodies” — features one of the band’s members screaming instructions to what appears to be a mental patient housed in an insane asylum.
“You’re never sure what caused an individual to commit a specific act,” Brad Bushman, a communications and psychology professor at Ohio State University, told the Washington Post’s J. Freedom du Lac. “But I’ve been doing research on violent media for 20 years, and the evidence is that it leads to aggressive behavior. It’s not the only factor that leads to violence, but it’s one of them.”…
The band reiterated that stance when it issued a statement about the controversy surrounding the song and Loughner on its website on Monday.
“We were devastated this weekend to learn of the tragic events that occurred in Arizona and that our music has been misinterpreted, again,” the statement reads. ” ‘Bodies’ was written about the brotherhood of the mosh pit and the respect people have for each other in the pit. If you push others down, you have to pick them back up. It was never about violence. It’s about a certain amount of respect and a code.”
Follow the link up top to watch the music video. I wonder how much of this stuff we’re going to hear at Loughner’s trial as part of his insanity claims or in the sentencing phase as a mitigating factor. If his lawyer’s smart, she’ll take the “climate of hate” rhetoric and run with it; that’ll turn him into a liberal cause celebre (and earn her lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of camera time) and, at the very least, probably guarantee that he’ll be spared a death sentence lest he be “martyred” or whatever.
Speaking of an insanity defense, here’s a short but informative clip from tonight’s NBC Nightly News revealing something I didn’t know: Arizona actually has no insanity defense. Rather, they provide for a verdict of “guilty but insane,” which means Loughner would be sent to a mental hospital initially and, if he’s able to recover his bearings after treatment, would then be sent to prison to serve his term. That’ll actually make it much easier for a jury to find insanity, I think. If they know there’s no risk of him walking free, they don’t have to strain to avoid the seemingly obvious conclusion that, yes indeed, this guy’s off his rocker. On the other hand, the fact that he left those letters stating that he planned ahead and that he was undertaking an “assassination” will make it awfully hard to say that he didn’t know right from wrong when he grabbed his gun and headed out the door. Exit question: Desperate new defense theory — was he “lucidly dreaming”?
Update: Via e-mail, Ed reminds me that Loughner is facing both federal and state charges, so yes, an insanity defense would apply at the federal level.
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Wasn’t he kicked out of school for aggressive behavior.
He did behave a bit too irrational not to give him some serious care. It sounds like it wasn’t an “attitude” problem.
the_nile on January 11, 2011 at 10:42 PM
The hole in the OZone & global warming made him kill these people.
portlandon on January 11, 2011 at 10:43 PM
and barry manilow….and, oh yeah, Cher too…. I think AP digs her.
ted c on January 11, 2011 at 10:44 PM
I know exactly why they are claiming this song is the scapegoat song.
Hands down, it is probably the most popular song on YouTube for military compilation videos. It ties in directly to the “violent rhetoric” meme. Thunderstruck by AC/DC is probably tied for first place.
Do you think that the lawyer hasn’t realized the sheriff has probably tainted the jury pool?
Mord on January 11, 2011 at 10:45 PM
This “insanity defense” thing is difficult for reasonable people to understand (includes me) because the concept is relatively counter-intuitive, but it’s this:
Mentally Incompetent to stand trial, or, being defined as “insane” legally does not exclude being medically nuts or mentally unwell.
Mentally deranged people (some) CAN plan and carry out plans well — though they may be MEDICALLY afflicted (what we laypeople would call, “insane” or “crazy”), they may be deemed well in the eyes of the law (or, “not insane” by the law, though medically afflicted or “crazy” to the public).
The law only accepts someone as “insane” if they don’t comprehend the legal proceedings going on against them, why they’re charged and for what, if they can’t comprehend or understand how to literally go through a trial even when represented competently. AND if what they’re charged with is of a certain level of crime…but I don’t know any more than that at that point.
I do know that some Schizophrenics as also Manic Depressives (both are psychotic disorders) can and do function “highly” and can and do plan well and can carry out their plans well, even thoroughly. Not all of these people are mentally scattered and unable to create goals nor are unable to fulfill them.
Some very creative people are what society calls “crazy” and such and some have Manic Depression and/or Paranoid Schizophrenia (some have both combined) but with certain helps can and do go on to be very creative, particularly IN MUSIC (ta-daaa, there it is).
So people like that who have displayed the ability to “plan ahead” such as Jared has and to fulfill those “plans” don’t pass the “but I’m insane and so don’t try me” line of defense. He’s CLEARLY MEDICALLY NUTS (“insane”) but legally, he appears to have known well what he was doing and to have planned it well in advance.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 10:48 PM
Apparently the kid is a fan of the movie Zeitgeist, that well known right wing pro-Tea Party documentary that Sarah Palin likes.
Sharke on January 11, 2011 at 10:50 PM
I noticed from photos I saw yesterday that he also likes white candles on an alter of burnt fruit with a human skull…so, excluding the skull, that’d mean that all the Latin Americans who love and use those same white candles on alters of burnt fruit are the same as Jared or vice-versa.
/sarc.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 10:52 PM
Which goes right to the story of this kid being arrested several times, but has no criminal record. Somebody covered for him.
As far as getting him to the doctor, they’ll make these parents the poster children for ObamaCare.
Knucklehead on January 11, 2011 at 10:54 PM
I think that would inspire more shootings, and probably suicides. Plus you could argue that it would be promoting anorexia.
deewhybee on January 11, 2011 at 10:55 PM
Yeah, you’re quite right.
The Left is working this, working this, working this anti-gun, military=bad, rightwing=whiteracism thing to a dog-ear fray. The Communist agitators, Southern Poverty Law Center, is trying, TRYING to make Jared equal “White Supremacy” per some website or another they claim he’s associated with, yet the website they’ve mentioned as possible link to Jared shows NO CONNECTION to Jared, no account, nothing, no comments, nothing.
The Left is working, working, working this scheme of theirs. It’s exactly why Pelosi of all the wretched people among us, is going to Arizona tomorrow. I’m sure she’ll be there to cry about how bad Americans are.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 10:56 PM
At least it makes more sense than blaming a map; think “Helter Skelter”.
whatcat on January 11, 2011 at 10:58 PM
Damned those kids and their crazy rock & roll music!
John Lennon was not available for comment.
Badger40 on January 11, 2011 at 11:02 PM
DUPNIK is covering his own A@@. He’s incompetent in his job and he’s gone about all his blame-casting as to anyone he can throw in there to suit his political activism so as to try and avoid being scrutinized as the incompetent that he is and has been.
No law enforcement at the Giffords’ event. Not even off-duty. Not a one. Yet Dupnik had a prior knowledge of Loughner as having “problems” and even being associated with Giffords (Loughner had prior contact with her).
Dupnik’s a political activist, he’s not a Sheriff except he’s taking a paycheck for such a job. He’s a political activist.
He’s also going to surely be looking at some big lawsuits for all the defamation he’s engaged in.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 11:02 PM
Rubbish.
My teen was driving me in the car, and as is the rule, the driver controls the radio. This thing called Kesha started “singing”.
If that didn’t drive me to throw myself out of the vehicle, then no music can drive someone to kill.
Also, the aforementioned rule has been ammended.
reaganaut on January 11, 2011 at 11:03 PM
And he was taken out by a guy obsessed with “Catcher In The Rye”. Damned Salinger and his evil writings!
whatcat on January 11, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Not to begin picking nits or anything, but you know this…how? Your extensive one-on-one medical sessions with the guy? Of just all the clap-trap spewed on the internet about him for the last three days?
Can we not fall into the same ‘trap’ as the Left and diagnose a mental problem without any expertise whatsoever?
Is it obvious the guy has issues? Of course. But as AP notes, its kinda hard to swallow the mental illness angle with the supposed pre-meditation of the act.
It is possible the guy has mental problems. Who doesn’t, really if the want of a defense is there in some form or fashion? But his actions could just as easily be ascribed to the evil act of a ruthless person.
This guy is his own person. His parents didn’t pull the trigger. Ascribing some possible parenting fault is equally ridiculous. Can we get over the fact that many people had crappy childhoods? Can we get beyond excusing this type of stuff because this persons mom or dad didn’t hug him enough when he was 10?
Maybe his parents should have done something. SO WHAT!? Is there ANY guarantee it would have done any good? No? THEN WHO THE HELL CARES?!
Jeebus! THIS guy committed this act. NOT his music! NOT his ideology! NOT his parents! NOT his religion, if any.
And that’s another thing: How in the hell can we be told that everything in this guys life made him do this, but if a radical islamist blows up a market full of innocent people, in the name of his religion why, then we must be careful about rushing to judgement? Damn!
Sorry, got a little ‘ranty’ there…
catmman on January 11, 2011 at 11:10 PM
No matter, he’s going to Disneyland.
The Ugly American on January 11, 2011 at 11:12 PM
Can we blame
“Annie Get Your Guns Out!”
Popular Broadway Show
bluemarlin on January 11, 2011 at 11:13 PM
tl;dr – he’s not a kid and families of schizophrenic adults have little legal power to force treatment
I’ve noticed a few references in the comments to him being a kid – he’s not, he’s an adult, and his parents have no legal power over him ie even if they wanted to get him help (I’m sure they did) they can’t force help on him, make him take meds, go to treatment, etc.
Also, as difficult as this may be, if he is a diagnosed schizophrenic, no civilized society would execute him in the first place. Schizophrenia is not some fabricated mental state that can be acted-out or faked, and it takes a heavy toll on families.
Making this worse (or more civic but less humane, depending on your perspective) is how difficult it is for families of adult schizophrenics to get them hospitalized, much less keep them there. I don’t know the law in Arizona, but in my state a doctor can only keep a person who is potentially a danger to themselves or others hospitalized against their will for three weeks. If they’ve done nothing wrong, taken their prescribed meds etc they’re free to go.
The political fallout of this has been sickening, eclipsed only by the loss of human life, and lost in the process is the fact that he is most likely a very, very sick human being, tortured by a disease that is as misunderstood as it is tossed aside as an excuse.
elcapt on January 11, 2011 at 11:14 PM
If you’re locked up in a mental ward it’s a bit tougher to go out, buy a gun and go on a killing spree, no?
whatcat on January 11, 2011 at 11:15 PM
Hey, I’ve got a theory: the guy is a f__kin’ lunatic!
Dopenstrange on January 11, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Well, thank God Loughner didn’t listen to these guys…
(There’s a great video somewhere of this song ‘performed’ by Lego characters, but I can’t find it at this moment…)
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Video games, man, video games…hours and hours of them and not being able to hold a job…and living in your parents basement…but those video games, the really cool ones, like Resident Evil and Killer 7…like that’s the ticket, man…and a little Ramstein pumping up the volume…
Ever since the earliest days of Rock and Roll…that’d be back in the 50′s, ah, the days of my youth…music has been blamed for everything under the sun. Might be. But if music alone were the cause, you’d think we’d have several millions killers per year stalking our cities and hamlets?
(Now there’s a nice before bedtime thought for all you kiddies out there…sleep well.)
How about proper parenting and parents actually paying attention to their kids from infancy to adulthood? How about parents showing by example, leading by example, what responsibility is all about, what getting a job and maintaining a a mortgage or trying to maintain a marriage is all about or talking to professional medical folks when there is a real need for it and at times when there isn’t such an obvious need for it? Engaging in political discourse with their kids instead of letting them find their own way? Same for religion. Maybe even attending church, temple, synagogue, et al., with their kids regularly and discussing what was said, read or heard whilst there?
You know, doing all the stuff that Mr. and Mrs Cleaver did with Wally and the Beav back in the day, or of Jim and Marge Anderson did with Bud, Princess and Kitten, or my parents did with me and my siblings, and we in turn with our progeny.
If anyone is to blame directly seems we’ve got the smirking bastard incarcerated already…and anything else is merely a distraction…though I’d take a good hard look at all those who walked away when confronted with the evidence of Loughner’s blatant instability.
coldwarrior on January 11, 2011 at 11:20 PM
That would depend on the severity of the illness and the need or call for initial and then long term hospitalization now, wouldn’t it?
Do you know what it takes to lock someone in a mental ward nowadays? a whole lot more than showing some anti-social tendencies. A whole lot more than having anger issues.
catmman on January 11, 2011 at 11:22 PM
It appears that Loughner’s attorney, Judy Clark, will do her work in court and not in the media or on TV.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/local/cop_shop/article_1d2b5ad2-1db8-11e0-b913-001cc4c002e0.html
slp on January 11, 2011 at 11:23 PM
HERE IT IS, those nasty little Legos…
Seriously, this is very, very funny. I hope it has nothing to do with Jared Loughner.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 11:25 PM
Oh, man…I love that. Thanks!
Dopenstrange on January 11, 2011 at 11:29 PM
A three-day hold is done at the request of law enforcement. It provides observational time to physicians when LE is in contact with someone they deem is a dnager to themself or others (or both), such as a person who has attempted suicide, or someone threatening the public or similar.
Up to law enforcement but expected of law enforcement when they encounter such. And it is NOT due to someone simply having “anger issues” — give people more credit than that.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 11:30 PM
Let us be reminded of what passes as civil discourse among the left when it came President George W. Bush.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hegAS0_RdTw
jawkneemusic on January 11, 2011 at 11:38 PM
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 11:30 PM
Yeah, but its not always done now is it? Why?
I have more than a little experience in LE, I know how this works.
And just for your information: Even if a person acts and tries to kill themselves, even that is not grounds for any kind of permanent hospitalization. Depending on circumstances, they may be hospitalized for weeks or months, but will eventually be released. They won’t be permanently institutionalized, except in the most extreme cases and even then it takes a whole lot to keep a person institutionalized who demonstrates the ability to function. Same thing goes for other conditions.
Even if he had been hospitalized as a kid when his parents had control over him, there is no guarantee that later he would not have snapped. It happens a lot. There is a lot of ‘recidivism’ with mental health issues.
I guess my point is that worrying about what might or may have been or what might or could have been done is really irrelevant at this point. To me, its simply playing into the lefty playbook of deflecting true blame
catmman on January 11, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Really good point made here: It Isn’t the Rhetoric They Fear, It’s the Passion
slickwillie2001 on January 11, 2011 at 11:42 PM
We’re addressing this case in specific: you are aware of exactly what efforts the parents took to have him committed?
It’s also very difficult to ride a bike. If a person refuses to even try to learn and throws up his hands in dispair at the very thought, it’s not very likely the person will ever ride a bike. If you don’t do “A” you can’t expect to reach “Z”.
“Anger issues”? I suspect this case is a bit more than something like somebody getting upset because Netflix sent them the wrong film. We’re not talking a “bad hair day”.
whatcat on January 11, 2011 at 11:48 PM
About those points, I agree. BUT, I still maintain that someone might have intervened TO SOME DEGREE with Loughner’s obvious Paranoid Schizophrenia PRIOR TO him acting out as he did this past Saturday.
I also made it clear here, previous comments this night and on earlier comments, other days past, that the degree of mental disturbance displayed by Loughner was not likely ever to be “cured” but could be at least modified somewhat by the use of antipsychotics.
These meds. have to be prescribed by ongoing contact with psychiatrists/medical care and are adjusted in time per the level of disturbance, so, if Loughner had gotten into some treatment prior to Saturday, perhaps his carnage would be much less by now or at not at all have happened (we’ll never know).
MY POINT IS that it’s outrageous to me that no one in the entire human contact with Loughner EVER got the guy into a doctor. Even a basic, primary care doctor would have easily noticed his mental health complications and gotten him in contact with a psychiatrist, or at least referred him to one and perhaps, if responsible enough, alerted LE about the guy’s state of mind.
Lourdes on January 11, 2011 at 11:56 PM
I disagree with what you’ve said there, however, for these reasons: Loughner’s problems are medical ones, not political ones. Though the Left is trying to force this issue into one of politics, it’s a medical dilemma as to what his issues are and the Left, for trying to force this into the realm of politics, is as deranged as Loughner, though with different parameters.
A lot of people who are psychotic can at least be managed somewhat if they receive ongoing mental health help and are assured to take ongoing medications that can and do help them compared to their states without such.
I could care less if the Left has some “political scheme” or not at this rate associated with who gets the blame — it’s the Left being crazy in my view as/when they do — but for the mentally impaired, afflicted, I do care that there’s help there for them that many don’t receive.
Lourdes on January 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM
But I in no way am suggesting that Loughner’s criminal activities be excused or he be considered “not responsible” for his own actions and plans that led to those actions this past Saturday.
Lourdes on January 12, 2011 at 12:02 AM
Also, if there had been intervention due to his severe mental issues and run-ins with the police, it might have weeded him out in the background check for a legal gun purchase.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 12:02 AM
You can have my Air Supply cassette when you pry it out of my cold, dead Walkman!
malclave on January 12, 2011 at 12:03 AM
First, they came for The Seekers 8-tracks…..
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 12:05 AM
It seems that Loughner’s mental derangement is being underestimated by some. Psychosis is the area of mental illness that is as severe as it gets and covers an array of specific problems, among those Schizophrenia and Manic Depression and others. Psychosis is the most severe that it gets, in other words, covers a variety of issues in that category.
Loughner’s state of mind is EXTREMELY DISTURBED. He’s “profoundly” ill, not moderately, not attitudinally, not something that can be corrected with better parenting or a good school or finer materials or whatever…he’s profoundly disturbed.
He CAN be helped with medications and ongoing contact with a highly regimented social and material environment, which is why institutions help people such as Loughner.
It doesn’t get much more “nuts” than what he is, in layman’s terms. Jail or institution, he shouldn’t be able to mingle within the public for a long time, if ever again, without supervision.
Lourdes on January 12, 2011 at 12:07 AM
Yes, exactly, not only might have but should have.
It also might be a part of what Dupnik is trying to cover — that Loughner was “known to police” as to having a record (Dupnik’s already admitted that) but that he was not screened out as to purchasing a gun. Dupnik seems to have been incompetent on many levels.
Lourdes on January 12, 2011 at 12:09 AM
I believe Patterico is asking some good questions in that regard.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 12:13 AM
If a vuvuzela won’t drive you to beat the person next to you to death, you’re safe enough.
Evrviglnt on January 12, 2011 at 12:14 AM
What, hallucinogenics plus head-banger “music” plus puberty might cause an adolescent schizophrenic to snap?
Nonsense, just good clean fun.
warbaby on January 12, 2011 at 12:15 AM
It’s obvious: all signs point to his obsession with “Project Runway” on Bravo.
DarthBrooks on January 12, 2011 at 12:26 AM
You disinfo op! It was the MST3K marathons!!
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 12:33 AM
Not even while wearing two NBC suits. Some forms of “suck” are simply too virulent to take the risk with.
JohnGalt23 on January 12, 2011 at 12:37 AM
Haven’t read any of the comments yet, but I am a musicologist (as a hobby, not a job), and people have been blaming music they either don’t like or don’t understand for society’s ills for ages.
The American “elite”, for example, favor classical music, which is OK to a point, but some of the more irritating aspects of it have been getting on peoples’ nerves for 250 years. They turn down their noses at “hick” music, AKA “hillbilly music”, as it was quaintly called a hundred years before they were born. But the elite hicks in country music refused to let Bob Wills appear on stage with a drummer, because drums weren’t allowed at the Grand Ole Opry.
Bob brought the drummer onstage anyway, and they never asked him back. That’s just as much effete snobberism as the classical music hacks.
In the late 1950s, there was a push to censor rock and roll. Alan Freed can’t be reached for comment right now.
And remember, Tripper Gore led a push to censor music. She got a pass because her husband was from the Correct Political Party. Yes, I know a (R) helped her (Susan Baker), but it was Tripper who Frank Zappa had a problem with.
When you lose Frank, you’re Yellow Snow.
Del Dolemonte on January 12, 2011 at 12:44 AM
Even my ballerina opera-singing daughter likes bands like Slip Knot. My sons are in a heavy metal screamo band and are a bunch of pussycats.
I hate their music, but there’s no way it drives them to be deranged murderers.
Common Sense on January 12, 2011 at 12:49 AM
Indeed. Dupnik admitted “The suspect in Saturday’s shooting rampage in which a U.S. congresswoman was critically wounded was unstable and had been known to make death threats in the past, the local sheriff said.”
“Dupnik said there had been earlier contact between Loughner and law enforcement after he had made death threats, although they had not been against Giffords”
So you got an insane druggie, known for his public psychotic outbursts, with a skull shrine in his yard who’s running around making death threats – and yet he’s not prosecuted and-or put away in the looney bin. Quite a “nothing to see here” moment.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 12:55 AM
Where’s that guy that played the Judas Priest songs in reverse during a trial? Maybe Tipper Gore wants another few rounds before Congress…
shorebird on January 12, 2011 at 12:55 AM
“Bodies” is quite possibly the most overused music for YouTube videos on the entire site.
Music didn’t kill those people.
Rhetoric didn’t kill those people.
Guns didn’t kill those people.
Sarah Palin didn’t kill those people.
Jared Loughner killed those people. If he had not been there, they would be alive today.
MadisonConservative on January 12, 2011 at 12:56 AM
I believe you meant “Tipper” there, but “Tripper” woulda been a way cooler name anyway.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 12:57 AM
Great quote culled from Tammy Bruce’s site:
“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” -Ronald Reagan
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 1:05 AM
I bought Classical Music For People Who Hate Classical Music and still hated it. Then came the indelible association with NPR.
Loughner was Rick-Rolled in ’07. It was downhill from there.
Feedie on January 12, 2011 at 1:06 AM
Frank, he knew what was coming down..
Hi and howdy doody,I’m the union man. You can call me Rudy. Any of you boys not paid up on your cards? Huh? You know I’m pleased to meet ya …
Question? Why are the ppl we threw rocks at as kids in charge of the country now?
nwpammy on January 12, 2011 at 1:07 AM
Oh, and by the way, that song listed in the links is not metal, that’s crap, this is metal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2DwaK6igj8
nwpammy on January 12, 2011 at 1:15 AM
But what you are describing is not the liberal way. Your scenario tends to result in self-sufficient, self-starting, independent human beings with proper moral beliefs and a notable work ethic.
That tends to make them more difficult to control and less dependent upon a large, intrusive government.
Yoop on January 12, 2011 at 1:17 AM
Interesting though, involuntary commitment. But how many nuts get caught in the net before you catch one that is homicidal? I would imagine a fraction of a percent.
Depriving an innocent person of their Liberty is an idea fraught with peril…
redshirt on January 12, 2011 at 1:22 AM
As a side bar, outpatient clinics were swamped years ago by so-called dual diagnoses, the self-treatment by disturbed persons abetted by our wonderful drug culture. Loughner’s drug use should never be overlooked in this mess.
Feedie on January 12, 2011 at 1:24 AM
If you wanna go “music appreciation” with classical, you got to avoid “Greatest Hits” & “Hooked On Classics” type compilations. Pick an instrument you enjoy listening to and check out various classical artists who play it. I’d suggest violin, but that’s just me.
The solution for the NPR association is working to defund and dismantle it, but not for the classical music obviously.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Dupnik was also ranting about how everyone in AZ thinks everyone should have a gun… yet it was within his power to stop Loughner from getting a gun. All he had to do is turn him in for mental evaluation.
Dupnik admitted he knew of death threats… but now his department has said they didn’t know. But I heard Dupnik say they did know!
The Sheriff’s department has lawyered up.
They know they are going to be held doubly accountable because of Dupnik’s diarrhea mouth.
He’s seems to forget the conservative/liberal statics of his state.
My guess is most of Maricopa County is ready to do what it takes to get put Dupnik in the unemployment lines. He declared war on 70% of his fellow citizens… they just don’t happen to live in his city…
petunia on January 12, 2011 at 1:28 AM
The thing is you can’t be sure which ones will go postal, the idea is intervention to prevent someone from reaching that stage. As with any disease, the earlier the diagnosis and treatment, the better.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 1:29 AM
I expect there’s a lot of butter that’s going to hit the fan on what he knew and when. Check out the NYT story from the HotAir news links at top:
Police Say They Visited Tucson Suspect’s Home Even Before Rampage
“The news of police involvement with the Loughners suggests that county sheriff’s deputies were at least familiar with the family, even if the reason for their visits was unclear as of Tuesday night.”
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 1:34 AM
Bingo. And yet putative “libertarians” still consider it insightful to deliver themselves of this sort of idiocy.
warbaby on January 12, 2011 at 1:45 AM
Really. How many pot users do you have in this country, and how many of them have committed mass killings?
Okay, now you can look in the mirror and recognize the same kind of ignorant reasoning that everyone else is using to blame something for this.
One thing and one thing alone is responsible for this: Jared Loughner.
Jared Loughner killed those people. If he had not been there, they would be alive today.
MadisonConservative on January 12, 2011 at 1:56 AM
How many drunks do you have in this country and how many of them have caused fatal accidents?
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Apples?
Oranges!
John the Libertarian on January 12, 2011 at 2:26 AM
Based on over 40 years of pot smoking…..
Impaired and confused = impaired and confused.
Cumquats?
Cumquats!
warbaby on January 12, 2011 at 2:31 AM
Not quite, John. I was just illustrating the total absurdity of a question that no one can answer. That is, since when police arrest a murder suspect and read him his rights, they don’t usually ask “So, ya ever smoke weed?”. And even if it they did, only the dumbest of criminals would detail their use of illegal drugs and controlled substances.
As it relates here, about the only thing I think that is more problematic than dealing with a psycho is having to deal with a psycho on drugs. Very bad mix, insanity and drugs.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 2:36 AM
Heh, yeah I threw that in for kicks. Thanks for the note. There was one track I liked on that disk. It was a lullaby. It makes sense for one who tends to over-stimulation and resistance to same. I found myself dragging my heels as some of that stuff tried to yank me up higher and higher.
The stress of liberalism is stimulation enough. I don’t like it, but it’s no wonder so many people want to dope themselves up, even as they vote for more Kool-Aid.
Feedie on January 12, 2011 at 2:39 AM
As I said, violin. It’ll fix whatever ails ya.
whatcat on January 12, 2011 at 2:47 AM
That’s pretty. There’s a lot to be said for watching the artist play, too.
Speaking of violins, I was astonished by the music of Millennium. The content wasn’t exactly relaxing ;-) , but attention to music is rare on television.
Feedie on January 12, 2011 at 3:22 AM
Yeah, and I read that link. Even if it’s true, it’s just another excuse for the drug culture and the mass stoning of healthy people into uselessness. It’s not about a few affluent libertarians wanting to smoke a joint or do an occasional line of coke without fear. It’s about pulling up the guardrails of an entire society so a lot of people drive over the cliffs.
On an individual scale, it’s selfish. On a societal scale, it’s evil. Many refuse to admit that when you accept drugs, you get the drug culture with its crime and chaotic nonsense inflicted on the neighbors.
Libertarians offer quite a bit of sound economic theory, but the morals they advocate amount to the left-libertine personal lifestyle plus the same for corporations.
Liberals are always getting mad at the last part, but never stop to think that some large companies are only practicing what liberals and libertarians preach.
Feedie on January 12, 2011 at 3:36 AM
How about lead poisoning as a child from paint flakes? How about mercury poisoning if he played with the mercury from a thermometer as a child? How about a genetic defect?
How about leaving it at, “It is his own damn fault?”
{^_^}
herself on January 12, 2011 at 4:18 AM
Heh. Sounds like fun.
bitsy on January 12, 2011 at 4:54 AM
Jared Loughner is responsible for his choices. All of them. There were many choices that led/contributed to this choice. His choice to use drugs, even if the effects of the drugs themselves did not contribute to this, cannot be extracted from the matter of who Jared Loughner chose to be.
DrMagnolias on January 12, 2011 at 5:57 AM
I know, let’s make him quarterback for the Eagles and let him “redeem” himself!
stefanite on January 12, 2011 at 7:18 AM
Remember this?
“What’s the frequency, Kenneth?”
Logic on January 12, 2011 at 7:52 AM
It was transfats and the toys in Happy Meals.
SouthernRoots on January 12, 2011 at 8:03 AM
In some respects, the reflexive response of the political left is similar to the entire global warming/climate change debate. It doesn’t matter if you have snow in the South, or declining average temperatures, all empirical evidence can only support their view. The comments by Rep. Sherman are perfect in this regard. No matter what the facts of the case, the only possible outcome is that right wing rhetoric is responsible. This intellectually vacant advocacy is the real poison in the public dialogue.
Ironwood297 on January 12, 2011 at 8:03 AM
But don’t dare ponder wether “Cop Killer” or “F*** the Polic” could insight violence. That would be RRAAAACCIISSTT.
DethMetalCookieMonst on January 12, 2011 at 8:07 AM
I bet he watched the Matrix and Inception as well…
James on January 12, 2011 at 8:19 AM
Maybe he watched Fight Club.
James on January 12, 2011 at 8:20 AM
He read the uncensored version of Huck Finn.
James on January 12, 2011 at 8:20 AM
I think he listened to Art Bell
James on January 12, 2011 at 8:21 AM
It seems apparent, based on the information so far, that Loughner is probably a paranoid schizophrenic. That is, he’s nuts in laymen’s terms.
However, if we’re playing the left or right blame game, it also seems apparent, based on the information so far, that the left is more to blame for any toxic atmosphere than the right, that Loughner is more left than right, and that leftist sources have had more influence than rightist ones on him and what he did.
First, as to the issue of toxicity, all anyone needs to do to understand how pervasive leftist toxicity has been is to read Michelle Malkin’s comprehensive list of their statements. (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/.)
Second, a liberal high school friend of his has said he was a leftist. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2653697/posts.) Furthermore, his trutherism and flag-burning are primarily associated with the left, not the right.
Third, the initiative to make it harder to institutionalize troubled people primarily came from the left during the 1960s (a policy which is also, of course, responsible for the majority of street people wandering around today.) Note that even leftist Tucson sheriff Dupnik said that years ago a Loughner type of person would have been committed.
The heavy metal music Loughner listened to is primarily a child of the left, not the right.
The great concern he expressed over grammar being debased is again more of a concern of the academic left, than the right. (Indeed, not too long ago Democrats were bragging about seeking advice from Berkeley linguistic professor George Lakeoff on how to reframe their issues to make them more appealing to the population in general. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dont-Think-of-an-Elephant/George-Lakoff/e/9781931498715.) And, finally, as to Loughner’s love of literature, it must be pointed out that, in general, literature’s gatekeepers (that is, publishers and people who work in publishing) are much more likely to lean left than right.
Dr. Charles G. Waugh on January 12, 2011 at 8:25 AM
If only he’d have watched this version.
John Deaux on January 12, 2011 at 8:26 AM
Jared Loughner is 100% responsible for his choices. Whether music, drugs, video games, movies, or anything else contributed in any way to his subsequent behavior does not change that he is responsible–all choices have consequences. If his choices plowed the fields of his mind with anti-social ideas, which led to evil behavior, he is still responsible.
DrMagnolias on January 12, 2011 at 8:28 AM
You HOMOPHOBE!!!!111!!!ELEVENTY!!!11
DethMetalCookieMonst on January 12, 2011 at 8:31 AM
Speaking about songs called “Bodies”, how about the vastly superior one by the Sex Pistols.
DethMetalCookieMonst on January 12, 2011 at 8:35 AM
No good without a link Dood!
Inanemergencydial on January 12, 2011 at 8:45 AM
No access to YouTube from here at work.
DethMetalCookieMonst on January 12, 2011 at 8:49 AM
Those backwards messages on my Bob & Doug Mckenzie album continue to rear their ugly heads…
MNHawk on January 12, 2011 at 8:56 AM
Loughner was heavy into Twinkies. Oh yeah. Dozens per day. The Twinkies combined with marijuana and the other hallucinogenic ‘herbs’ he took caused the murderous rampage. ‘Mother Jones’ magazine had an article about how the RNC, in conjunction with the CIA, has been perfecting this combo and recruiting Manchurian ‘tools’ for attacks on Dems. Laughner was a ‘tool’./sarc
I added the sarc for the lefty trolls doing oppo research trying to find evidence of a rightwing conspiracy to promote violence.
JimP on January 12, 2011 at 9:01 AM
AllahPundit, the “guilty but insane” defense is quite common among Western states. They don’t like the idea of a murderer going free so, by using the legislative process (radical, I know) they changed it to guilty but insane.
So all, even if this guy skips on federal charges by claiming insanity, he will spend the rest of his life in either a mental institution or prison on state charges.
rbj on January 12, 2011 at 9:06 AM
I’ve stayed away from this thread so far but I have to say, the Drowning Pool song is really pretty good as far as heavy metal music goes. It’s catchy.
It was used in the Vin Diesel movie xXx very effectively. It does not make me want to do anything violent, nor did “(Don’t Fear) The Reaper” make me want to kill myself back in 1976.
It would be so much easier if we could pinpoint exactly why someone acts in a evil way, but we can’t.
Fallon on January 12, 2011 at 9:17 AM
That was awesome, thank you! I love Rammstein, it makes surprisingly good cleaning music (keeps me motivated). And, Legos are the best things ever.
I call such BS on the music scapegoat crap. As much play as that song has gotten over the years, you’d think half of the young adults would be running around violently if we were so instigated by loud, heavy music. This guy has some serious issues, but unless they can prove that he is 100% mentally incompetent (and 100% unable to understand right from wrong), then he’s 100% responsible for his actions.
Anna on January 12, 2011 at 9:18 AM
On Loughner’s “favorite” video on youtube:
It is obvious that, rather than being a “favorite” video that Loughner found on youtube, this is actually Loughner’s own video. Proof? Note that captions are included in the favorite video of a bizarre individual burning the American flag. Early on, the caption says something akin to, “Do you believe in BCE?” At this point, if you have watched the other Loughner videos, you will also know he goes on and on in one about “BCE” which stands for “Before common era” (formerly “BC” before Christ, which indicates a general time in the world’s history).
Also, if you read the commentary on the favorite video, you will note the writing is almost exactly the same as what is seen in his other videos, being of an “if/then” type. And example would be, “If Human beings know grammar, and Jared Loughner is a human being, then Jared Loughner knows grammar”.
The person in the favorite video IS Jared Loughner.
darkmetal on January 12, 2011 at 9:19 AM
Rush yesterday was talking about how the lead singer was saying the song was “misinterpreted” or whatever he was claiming, and Rush was going on and on about the lead singer this and that.
For what it’s worth, the original lead singer of Drowing Pool that wrote this song died a while ago, and they now have a new lead singer. It’s not even really his song.
ballz2wallz on January 12, 2011 at 9:57 AM
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