Marine Corps chief: I’ll lead the drive to integrate gay Marines

posted at 4:21 pm on December 20, 2010 by Allahpundit

The Senate hearings on DADT established him as the military’s chief critic of repeal, with Newsweek speculating this past weekend that he might even resign over the new policy. That would have been big, bad news if so, as it would have sent a signal down the chain of command that quitting in protest is a proper reaction. Instead he’s going the opposite way, setting an example by vowing to lead the integration efforts himself. There are a lot of reasons why he might feel compelled to do that — he’s worried about men choosing not to reenlist, he fears the danger of distractions to troops in the field and wants to minimize the disruption, and/or his sense of duty will allow him no other course — but I admire him for putting the country’s needs ahead of his own objections. Something both sides of the debate can agree on, I hope:

Here is Amos’ full statement:

Fidelity is the essence of the United States Marine Corps. Above all else, we are loyal to the Constitution, our Commander in Chief, Congress, our Chain of Command, and the American people. The House of Representatives and the Senate have voted to repeal Title 10, US Code 654 “Policy Concerning Homosexuality in the United States Armed Forces.” As stated during my testimony before Congress in September and again during hearings before the Senate Armed Services Committee earlier this month, the Marine Corps will step out smartly to faithfully implement this new policy. I, and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, will personally lead this effort, thus ensuring the respect and dignity due all Marines. On this matter, we look forward to further demonstrating to the American people the discipline and loyalty that have been the hallmark of the United States Marine Corps for over 235 years.”

Here’s a fun new scare ad from Citizens United wondering whether so many troops might flee the service in protest of ending DADT that Congress will be forced to … bring back the draft. Answer: Er, no. If worse came to worst and manpower was depleted, the “solution” wouldn’t be conscription but rather accelerated withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. The public long ago tired of both wars and we’re on our way out of both countries sooner rather than later anyway. But worse won’t come to worst, thanks in part to the example set by Amos and in part to the sense of duty of average troops. There may be an early spike in the number who refuse to reenlist in protest and there’ll surely be a few instances of harassment, but I think this Times piece surveying Marines for their reaction is probably a fair inkling of what’s to come. Plenty of misgivings, but few ultimatums. Exit quotation: “The first gay men (as the infantry is all male) are going to need very thick skins.”


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Must Palin’s resignation, which was also responsible and completely observant of her duties as Governor, to be continually mischaracterized to denigrate her politically?

You miss the point, as so many Palin supporters often do because they’re so quick to find offense. It’s become definitional, I think, to be a Palin supporter is to be defensive whenever anything is said or written regardless of the context.

The point is that Sarah Palin quitting her job can be debated, criticized or admired, depending on what side you’re on, should she have done it, why did she do it, will it hurt her, help her, what’s the fall out, what’s the gain? Because being the Governor of Alaska isn’t the calling of lifetime and it doesn’t define the person, doesn’t require from that person a pledge of fidelity or constancy. It can be abandoned if it’s convenient to walk away from it or if the person decides that there’s something more meaningful for her to do. Marines don’t do that and certainly not Marines who make it to the top of the Corps.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 8:27 AM

I’m going to try and repost this because for some reason my comments get totally messed up:

“Must Palin’s resignation, which was also responsible and completely observant of her duties as Governor, to be continually mischaracterized to denigrate her politically?”
Jenfidel on December 21, 2010 at 8:17 AM

You miss the point, as so many Palin supporters often do because they’re so quick to find offense. It’s become definitional, I think, to be a Palin supporter is to be defensive whenever anything is said or written regardless of the context.

The point is that Sarah Palin quitting her job can be debated, criticized or admired, depending on what side you’re on, should she have done it, why did she do it, will it hurt her, help her, what’s the fall out, what’s the gain? Because being the Governor of Alaska isn’t the calling of lifetime and it doesn’t define the person, doesn’t require from that person a pledge of fidelity or constancy. It can be abandoned if it’s convenient to walk away from it or if the person decides that there’s something more meaningful for her to do. Marines don’t do that and certainly not Marines who make it to the top of the Corps.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 8:32 AM

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 8:32 AM

Excellent, Bennett.

ladyingray on December 21, 2010 at 8:58 AM

Exit quotation: “The first gay men (as the infantry is all male) are going to need very thick skins.”

And…….what was that line from “Deliverance” again…..”pretty mouths”

olesparkie on December 21, 2010 at 9:14 AM

This;

His own sense of duty, to protect all Marines, is being used against him by those without honor, in the end he will help legitimize the indefensible.

LincolntheHun on December 20, 2010 at 4:32 PM

The reaction by the CMC was not a forgone conclusion. There has been a continuing debate within the military for years, and certainly since “Dereliction of Duty” was written by H.R. McMaster on where the line is that if crossed will lead you to break your oath to the Constitution and the Country by following the directions of elected leaders. The book is a damning indictment of the Chiefs of Staff for bending to the will of the Johnson administration and pursuing a war in a manner that they knew was destined for failure. What should they have done? Speak out? Resign in mass? This issue has been one of hot debate within the Services for years.

With repeal of DADT we have another example of social engineering that serves to weaken the military. The integration of women has weakend us, their physical capabilities are generally beneath that of a mans, their incidence of heath issues are higher and the social turmoil caused is a distraction. The de facto quota system in promotion and assignment of minorities has led to placing the adequate or merely qualified above the exceptional and highly qualified. The imposition of highly restrictive ROE and the plethora of lawyers vetting operational plans/execution at all levels has directly impacted effectiveness and efficiency. When will it be too much?

Things will look fine from the outside. The planes will fly and the tanks will run. The drill team at 8th and I will be impressive and the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier will still bring oohhs and aaahhhs. But, at some point and against some enemy the force will break. And it will break because they will be hard and we will be affected with self inflicted weakness. And it will be too late to correct it. We seem to think that we will always be qualitively better than our enemies regardless of what we do to the military. But it’s just not true.

At some point we will make ourselves too weak to prevail. (Those of us that served in the mid to late 70s know what that looks like. We had a military that was riven by drugs, racial strife, low morale and often second-rate equipment. We couldn’t have fought our way out of a paper bag.) When that point comes, and we do break and lose, it will be the fault of all those that supported these foolish policies, civilian and military. Maybe the current CMC will bear his share of that guilt for doing what he’s doing and helping to institutionalize more weakness.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM

It was written by a druid woman and her druid husband who work at one PA church.

and what is a druid doing working for the episcopals?? hmmmm

and your statement, as usual, is a lie…

The rite was attributed to the Rev. Glyn Lorraine Ruppe Melnyk, the pastor of St. Francis in the Fields Episcopal Church in Malvern, Pa.

She and her husband, Bill Melnyk, rector of St. James Episcopal Church in Downingtown, Pa., posted several ceremonies, which invoked pagan gods and goddesses, on http://www.tuathadebrighid.org.

a pastor and a rector…not exactly a janitor who just happens to work at the church huh.

It was posted on the larger Episcopal website, only to be withdrawn after people (who happened to be Episcopalians!) complained. You took this incident and used it maliciously to taunt a self-described Episcopalian commenter (who you labeled a CINO), asking them if they worship in this bizarre manner.

and how did it get on hte ‘larger episcopal website’ hmmmm?? apparently its not that ‘bizarre’ for episcopals if it makes on their DENOMINATION’S WEB SITE…duhhhhh

and here’s what another ‘crazy person’ like me said about it…

Christianity Today declared that the Episcopal Church is “promoting pagan rites to pagan deities.”

“And not just any new pagan deities,” wrote Ted Olsen, the magazines’ online managing editor. “The Episcopal Church … is actually promoting the worship of idols specifically condemned in Scripture.”

Meanwhile, you called me a “lying piece of trash” when I pointed out that this druid ceremony was rejected by Episcopalians at large (and to suggest otherwise was a smear). It’s most amusing that after all this bashing of others you play the role of the injured party.

Buy Danish on December 20, 2010 at 11:35 PM

yeah because you are a liar, as this post demonstrates. you lie about the posting, not mentioning that an episcopal pastor is responsible…oh no just someone who ‘works at an episcopal church’ uh huh.

and how could it be ‘rejected by episcopals at large’ when it made it onto their denomination’s web site?? hmmm??

and gomer, its not the only incident of this in that church….of course you missed this incident that I posted..

ASHEVILLE, NC: Mother Grove Goddess Temple celebrates spring equinox inside Episcopal Cathedral

[witchcraft in Episcopal cathedral in Asheville] Just up the road in Asheville it seems the Episcopalians are welcoming witches onto their property to celebrate the Spring equinox together.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12773

and another one…

Defrocked Catholic Priest Leads Earth Worship Seminar
Former Dominican Turned Episcopalian Praises Gaia, ‘Goddess’
Jeff Walton
May 5, 2010

An Episcopal priest and theologian who popularized the rave-like “Techno Cosmic Mass” and advocated goddess worship recently led a seminar on mysticism and Earth spirituality to coincide with Earth Day.

Warning that environmental degradation caused by raging against “Gaia” had to cease, the Rev. Matthew Fox made frequent references to “the Goddess” and the divine feminine during his environmentally-themed lecture and workshop, “Earth Spirituality and the Mystical Tradition.” The event was held in April at the Unitarian Universalist Church in the Washington suburb of Rockville, Maryland, and sponsored by the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation.

http://www.theird.org/Page.aspx?pid=1466

so this isn’t an ‘isolated incident’ and my characterizations of the church is correct.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM

The Episcopal Church believes in “climate justice”?

Anglicans, Episcopalians issue statement on climate justice, form commitments

darwin on December 21, 2010 at 9:35 AM

Yeah, and the Roman Catholic Church is practicing witchcraft, too…………………read this link:

http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=647371&ParentId=557180

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:38 AM

darwin on December 21, 2010 at 9:35 AM

no surprise, they should rename themselves to the laodicean church….and of course they believe in gay marriage. I wonder if SOROS is an episcopal….

Episcopalian Church approves gay marriage
March 8, 2010 at 12:02 am

*Episcopal clergy in Washington, D.C. have been given the green light to preside at same-sex marriages.
Bishop John Bryson Chane of the Diocese of Washington made the announcement Thursday, a day after gay and lesbian couples began applying for marriage licenses.

“Through the grace of Holy Baptism, there are no second class members of the Body of Christ, ” Chane said in a statement. “We are of equal value in the eyes of God, and any one of us may be called by the Holy Spirit into holy relationships as well as Holy Orders.”

http://www.eurweb.com/?p=11360

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 9:39 AM

Yeah, and the Roman Catholic Church is practicing witchcraft, too…………………read this link:

http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=647371&ParentId=557180

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:38 AM

uh gomer, this is the rantings of some wacko…its not on their church web site….not even a nice try…just a desperate ploy.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 9:40 AM

“Through the grace of Holy Baptism, there are no second class members of the Body of Christ, ” Chane said in a statement. “We are of equal value in the eyes of God, and any one of us may be called by the Holy Spirit into holy relationships as well as Holy Orders.”

I wonder if the good bishop feels that way about pedophiles?

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 9:46 AM

…………Oh, and that little problem of child abuse within the Catholic Church? …………..What does all this have to do with gays and lesbians serving in the Military, Darwin and Right4life? Atheists are allowed to serve in the United States Military, but aren’t allowed to become Boy Scouts. As the law used to stand gays and lesbians were allowed to serve but could not reveal that they are homosexual. Now the can serve openly. Apparently, letting them say they are homosexual upsets the heck out of both of you.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:49 AM

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:49 AM

eh? My comment was about the Episcopal Church and their Marxist agenda.

darwin on December 21, 2010 at 9:52 AM

uh gomer, this is the rantings of some wacko…its not on their church web site….not even a nice try…just a desperate ploy. – right4life on December 21, 2010 at 9:40 AM

Show me the Episcopalian website that endorses the worship of goddesses and witches? Oh, and let me wish you a merry winter solstice. And, am happy as heck that the days will be getting longer after today.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:53 AM

eh? My comment was about the Episcopal Church and their Marxist agenda. – darwin on December 21, 2010 at 9:52 AM

You don’t even want to go there. Liberation theology is deeply rooted in the Catholic Church.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:56 AM

The stick through on my 9:53 post was a mistake, it should have been just quoting Right4life.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:58 AM

You don’t even want to go there. Liberation theology is deeply rooted in the Catholic Church.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:56 AM

I don’t think it’s as deeply rooted as it is in other churches, but the bottom line is there’s a concerted effort to infiltrate Christianity, and change and dilute it’s message.

The Catholic church fought liberation theology in South America, and won.

darwin on December 21, 2010 at 10:00 AM

I don’t think it’s as deeply rooted as it is in other churches, but the bottom line is there’s a concerted effort to infiltrate Christianity, and change and dilute it’s message.

The Catholic church fought liberation theology in South America, and won. – darwin on December 21, 2010 at 10:00 AM

And, what does all this have to do with the subject at hand, gays and lesbians serving openly in the military. And, yes, Christianity has changed. It once supported slavery and the burning of witches at the stake. And, how long about those 95 theses which Martin Luther nailed to the church door?

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:09 AM

…………Oh, and that little problem of child abuse within the Catholic Church? …………..What does all this have to do with gays and lesbians serving in the Military, Darwin and Right4life? Atheists are allowed to serve in the United States Military, but aren’t allowed to become Boy Scouts. As the law used to stand gays and lesbians were allowed to serve but could not reveal that they are homosexual. Now the can serve openly. Apparently, letting them say they are homosexual upsets the heck out of both of you.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:49 AM

uh nothing, you’re the one that brought up the pedophile priests,..but isn’t it interesting they were all homosexual pedophiles? what do you think about that?

yeah letting the gays impose their fascist agenda does upset me…but fascism doesn’t upset you obviously…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:12 AM

Show me the Episcopalian website that endorses the worship of goddesses and witches? Oh, and let me wish you a merry winter solstice. And, am happy as heck that the days will be getting longer after today.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 9:53 AM

uh gomer, I did. can’t you read?

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:14 AM

The Catholic church fought liberation theology in South America, and won.

darwin on December 21, 2010 at 10:00 AM

yep and the episcopals embrace it apparently. I wonder if Van Jones is an episcopal priest?

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:15 AM

And, yes, Christianity has changed. It once supported slavery and the burning of witches at the stake. And, how long about those 95 theses which Martin Luther nailed to the church door?

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:09 AM

laughable. christianity hasn’t changed. slavery has been with us since the beginning..only christianity stood against it…sorry charlie…nice smear job though….

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:18 AM

With repeal of DADT we have another example of social engineering that serves to weaken the military. The integration of women has weakend us, their physical capabilities are generally beneath that of a mans, their incidence of heath issues are higher and the social turmoil caused is a distraction. The de facto quota system in promotion and assignment of minorities has led to placing the adequate or merely qualified above the exceptional and highly qualified. The imposition of highly restrictive ROE and the plethora of lawyers vetting operational plans/execution at all levels has directly impacted effectiveness and efficiency. When will it be too much?

And yet Iraq fell in three weeks. With women and gays serving even if the latter weren’t serving openly. Granted, the war after that took some nasty turns but that had more to do with the political climate –both here and in Iraq– than it did with the worthiness of the US Military.

Truly I can’t think of any military conflict in my life time (longer than I care to admit) where the US Military did not perform admirably. It has lost wars but not because of the inability of the military to accomplish its missions but rather the lack of or change in domestic political will. This has been true regardless of racial integration or allowing women to serve in greater numbers and now with the change in rules allowing openly gay military to serve without consequence (for being openly gay anyway), I can’t really see why we should conclude that the military won’t still perform admirably.

As to whether or not top command should resign en masse if it disagrees with civilian authority? That sounds kind of like a coup.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 10:22 AM

yep and the episcopals embrace it apparently. I wonder if Van Jones is an episcopal priest? right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:15 AM

That’s a blatant lie, give me one credible link to that one right4life. What about Catholic Churches who give refuge to illegal aliens. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271009,00.html

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM

That’s a blatant lie, give me one credible link to that one right4life. What about Catholic Churches who give refuge to illegal aliens. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271009,00.html

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM

how did I lie? they’ve bought into ‘climate change’ ‘goddess worship’ ‘gay marriage’ so why not liberation theology?

your desperation is laughable.

you’re the episcopal, prove to me they haven’t. they sound socialist as hell…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:25 AM

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM

and aren’t you gay? how does that square with christianity? apparently its ok for an episcopal…but then so is a lot of other things the bible disapproves of.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:26 AM

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM

oh and I’m not a catholic..so what DO you think about all those pedophile priests being gay? didn’t see a hetero one at all..isn’t that interesting?

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:27 AM

laughable. christianity hasn’t changed. slavery has been with us since the beginning..only christianity stood against it…sorry charlie…nice smear job though…. – right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:18 AM

Yeah, it only took the church 18 centuries to take a stand against slavery. The British Government to it upon themselves to stop the slave trade since they had the naval power to do so. The British Government is the Anglican or Episcopal church.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:27 AM

Yeah, it only took the church 18 centuries to take a stand against slavery. The British Government to it upon themselves to stop the slave trade since they had the naval power to do so. The British Government is the Anglican or Episcopal church.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:27 AM

and what could the church do about it for most of their history? you do know they were persecuted by the Romans for the first 300 years…and then spent about a century fighting the muslims…

do you REALLY think WILBERFORCE would be welcome in the anglican church today? oh no he’s one of those EVIL SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES….he’d be run out on a rail today.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:29 AM

oops not a century fighting islam A MILLENIUM

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:30 AM

oh and I’m not a catholic..so what DO you think about all those pedophile priests being gay? didn’t see a hetero one at all..isn’t that interesting? right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:27 AM

Have you seen one gay rights group stand up and defend the actions of these priests? And, there were priests who abused young girls.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:31 AM

Have you seen one gay rights group stand up and defend the actions of these priests? And, there were priests who abused young girls.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:31 AM

really? post your proof..I never heard of one.

I’m sure NAMBLA was pleased..the ACLU defended them….and remember the safe schools czar for Obama? he didn’t report a pedophilic relationship…the guy who founded GLSEN…what do you think about that? so apparently it doesn’t really bother the gay community that much…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:33 AM

and what could the church do about it (slavery) for most of their history? you do know they were persecuted by the Romans for the first 300 years…and then spent about a century fighting the muslims. Islam was not founded until the 7th Century. And, in all that time you say they were fighting Islam they could not end or condemn slavery. The Church even supported the divine right of Kings…………….yes, the church has changed in 2000 years.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:36 AM

here’s something they’re teaching at the episcopal divinity school…

Christian Spiritualities for the Contemporary World

Students develop their understanding of the relationship between issues in today?s world and Christian and other spiritualities. Some examples of EDS courses pertaining to this area include: Spirituality for the Contemporary World; Life of Prayer; Spirituality of Healing; Eros, Sexuality, and Spirit; and Eco-feminist Liberation Theology in Contemporary Perspective; Contemporary Issues in Christian Social Ethics; Hebrew Bible and Ethics.

http://www.eds.edu/sec.asp?pageID=77

oh yeah real enlightening…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:36 AM

And, in all that time you say they were fighting Islam they could not end or condemn slavery. The Church even supported the divine right of Kings…………….yes, the church has changed in 2000 years.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:36 AM

I’m sure they weren’t thrilled with the muslims enslaving christians..don’t ya think?

you ascribe all this power to the church….but as we saw with Henry the 8th…they didn’t have that much power…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:38 AM

The Church even supported the divine right of Kings…………….yes, the church has changed in 2000 years.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:36 AM

and I’m sure you think the embrace of gay marriage is another part of that necessary ‘change’ don’t you?

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:39 AM

really? post your proof..I never heard of one.

I’m sure NAMBLA was pleased..the ACLU defended them….and remember the safe schools czar for Obama? he didn’t report a pedophilic relationship…the guy who founded GLSEN…what do you think about that? so apparently it doesn’t really bother the gay community that much… right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:33 AM

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=505&q=+Catholic+Priest+abusing+girls&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=+Catholic+Priest+abusing+girls&gs_rfai=&fp=a3b7e99701c2f1b7

I guess that I have to do your research, too?

None of this has to do with the the topic of this thread. I will no longer respond to your posts.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:42 AM

In the case of the priest scandal, boys were the victims of sexual misconduct much more often than girls, by a factor of about four to one, says Margaret Leland Smith of John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

4 to 1 isn’t that interesting…especially since the proportion of homosexuals is so small compared to heterosexuals…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:45 AM

None of this has to do with the the topic of this thread. I will no longer respond to your posts.

SC.Charlie on December 21, 2010 at 10:42 AM

I don’t blame ya charlie…you don’t want to keep embarrassing yourself…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 10:46 AM

The Episcopal Church believes in “climate justice”?
Anglicans, Episcopalians issue statement on climate justice, form commitments
darwin on December 21, 2010 at 9:35 AM

Unfortunately, yes. Climate Justice, Social Justice, Gender Justice…That’s one of the many unfortunate reasons why I am a “lapsed Episcopalian”.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM

O.M.G. (no pun intended!) There are few things worse (and dare I say less “Christ-like”) than to accuse someone of being a “liar” without any basis of truth.

I acknowledged that the local church promoted this pagan worship ceremony. OBVIOUSLY we were talking about the Rector and his wife, not the flipping janitor. You had already provided this information – there was no need to repeat it! My point was merely that this one loony outlier of a church does not speak for the entire Episcopal Church USA (or the Anglican Communion). To suggest, as you did (in a most insulting, taunting manner!) that because a commenter called themselves an Episcopalian that they practice Goddess Worship reflects very poorly on both your thinking abilities and your humanity.

The fact is that all churches within a single denomination are not alike. Obama’s Trinity United Church of Christ, which practices Black liberation theology, does not speak for all other churches who are part of the larger Church of Christ umbrella. Not all Episcopal churches in the “Anglican Communion” accept women as ordained ministers. There is a lot of turmoil within the Episcopal Church between conservatives and liberals. The fact that some churches encourage pagan goddess worship is deplorable, but to state that they represent the entire church (and by extention, its laity) is false (note that I do not use your deplorable tactic and call you a “liar”).

Hot Air links to leftists all the time, and cites their words in the Q.O.T.D. – this is not an endorsement of their agenda!

BTW, great job using a story about a defrocked Catholic and former Episcopal minister to buttress your specious contention that the Episcopal church formally endorses pagan goddess worship.

Truly pathetic…

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 10:52 AM

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 10:22 AM

I fought in both the wars against the Iraqi’s and am proud of having done so and proud of the accomplisments of the Marines I served with. But, there’s no question that in general they were not an enemy capable of putting us to the test. We didn’t really know that until we crossed the LD in the Gulf War, but it became readily apparent. The weaknesses we imposed on ourselves were not decisive. They may have been at Chosin, Tarawa and Hue. We can only speculate.

Also, note that I did not say that racial integration weakened us. It strengthened us overall because all black units were in general underperforming. Take a look at the 31st Regt in Korea. What has weakened us is a de facto quota system for promotion/assignment that places race over performance.

As to whether or not top command should resign en masse if it disagrees with civilian authority? That sounds kind of like a coup.

Only if you don’t know what a coup d’etat is would it sound that way. Rather than being the sudden overthrow of the government that action would be a complete removal from participation in the government.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 10:57 AM

He claimed that the repeal wont be catastrophic to the military and probably wont even be noticed from the outside. He claimed that it will do its share of chipping away at the overall excellence of the US military.

Now, are you claiming that he’s wrong.

blink on December 21, 2010 at 10:42 AM

Yes, I am claiming that he’s wrong because he discusses changes in the military that have occurred in the past –like allowing women to serve in large numbers– and he claims that it’s weakened the military and yet he gives no examples to prove that. The only way to judge the performance of the military is how well does it undertake the missions its given. Tell me how much better we would have done in Iraq and are doing in Afghanistan if only women and gays would be kept out of the ranks? Really?

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 11:10 AM

Rather than being the sudden overthrow of the government that action would be a complete removal from participation in the government.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 10:57 AM

A complete removal undertaken because the civilian command would have refused to submit to military demands, a complete removal that would have the effect of drastically impairing the country’s control over its military because the control operates through the officer corps, sending the message to the ranks that rebellion, aka complete removal from duty, is sanctioned by military leadership and encouraging, indirectly if not overtly, the ranks to do the same. Unless, of course, civilian command acceded to the demands of the military leadership. A coup by another name, I think.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 11:14 AM

You’re saying, ‘we did well, therefore we couldn’t have done better.’ Do you really stand behind this logic?

blink on December 21, 2010 at 11:15 AM

Until you can provide evidence that women and gays serving in the military have prevented the military from performing its missions capably, then yes I stand behind it. I have proof, you see, of my point, how we actually did in those missions, and the military performed properly, it did its job.

Neither you nor SoonerMarine can demonstrate how it would have been better had women and gays been kept out. All you can do is say it’s weakening the military but you can’t say exactly how. And there is no evidence of that weakness in the performance.

I ask again, how would the military have done its job better if womena and gays weren’t allowed to serve? What compromises to the mission were undertaken because women and gays are in the military? What task was left undone because women and gays are in the military? How many less men and women would have died or not been wounded if women and gays weren’t in the military?

It’s not enough to say, oh social engineering, it’s bad, it’s making the military so weak, it’s going to break. Not unless you have some proof to back it up.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 11:23 AM

Well, you think wrong. Resignations wouldn’t be a coup by even the broadest possible meaning of the term.

blink on December 21, 2010 at 11:16 AM

Clearly I disagree as the rest of my post shows because the purpose of the mass resignations would be to try and force civilian command to submit to military demands. It would completely upend the entire foundation of civilian control over the military and probably force a constitutional crisis in this country. This would probably explain why military leadership has never done this, no matter how much it might disagree with policy or purpose. They are, above all, patriots.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 11:26 AM

How many less men and women would have died or not been wounded if women and gays weren’t in the military?

Ok, I can answer that question. Women who’ve died in Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn’t have died if they hadn’t been serving. But that just means some man would have died in their place.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 11:27 AM

I’m sure this Marine Commander loves his soldiers like a father and his country like a patriot. It has to be heart breaking for him to watch things spiral into degeneracy.

scotash on December 21, 2010 at 11:53 AM

I think you’re crazy.

blink on December 21, 2010 at 11:50 AM

Enlightened commentary, that. I’m betting you didn’t make the college debate team.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 11:57 AM

Are you pretending that you didn’t read my arguments, or are you overtly surrendering?

blink on December 21, 2010 at 12:04 PM

Uh…what arguments? If you made an argument, I must have missed them. Or maybe I just…blinked…as they slithered on by.

Ha Ha! I’ll have to pick up this frivolity later, I need to earn a living for a little while.

Bennett on December 21, 2010 at 12:21 PM

With repeal of DADT we have another example of social engineering that serves to weaken the military. The integration of women has weakend us, their physical capabilities are generally beneath that of a mans, their incidence of heath issues are higher and the social turmoil caused is a distraction. The de facto quota system in promotion and assignment of minorities has led to placing the adequate or merely qualified above the exceptional and highly qualified. The imposition of highly restrictive ROE and the plethora of lawyers vetting operational plans/execution at all levels has directly impacted effectiveness and efficiency. When will it be too much?

While I am not in support of the repeal or rather the manner that they repealed the DADT (something better served to be repealed once out of Afgan. and Iraq) I have no doubt that given time the adaptation will be made. Hopefully, with no impact to the effectivness. As far as the Marine Corps goes they will rise to the level of professionalism expected or they will get out. I was in when DADT was enacted and Marines said the same thing about destraction and effectiveness but given that we were mostly at peace, looking back over 17 years I don’t believe our service’s effectiveness has been interrupted.

It seems that SoonerMarine seems to be repeating some well rehearsed lines in regards to women in the Marine Corps and that is something that the older Devil Dogs love to repeat. When women were first admitted into the Marine Corps it was to free a man to fight. They have been freeing a man to fight for how many years now? 66 years I believe. There are men filling the support roles in the infantry units because women cannot go there and that is somehow making the Marine Corps less effective and efficient? Or is it the women that are filling the support roles in the support units that don’t go where the infantry goes that are making the Marine Corps less effective and efficient? Women are the destraction to the infantry Marines except for the fact that infantry Marines rarely if ever come in contact with women. How do I know? Because I befriended infantry Marines that said I was the only female they met and they never saw me in uniform. I met Marines that got out and said they never met a Marine that was female. Well there goes that destraction theory.

TturnP on December 21, 2010 at 12:30 PM

O.M.G. (no pun intended!) There are few things worse (and dare I say less “Christ-like”) than to accuse someone of being a “liar” without any basis of truth.

uh did you read what you wrote? you admitted you lied about me when you accused me of being an ‘anti-mormon bigot’

just laughable.

then you lied about me trying to ‘smear’ the episcopal church..and you lied when you said it was just one church..and then you lied about ‘some employee’ and you didn’t mention it was a priest and rector….the lies just keep on coming from you.

acknowledged that the local church promoted this pagan worship ceremony. OBVIOUSLY we were talking about the Rector and his wife, not the flipping janitor. You had already provided this information – there was no need to repeat it! My point was merely that this one loony outlier of a church does not speak for the entire Episcopal Church USA (or the Anglican Communion). To suggest, as you did (in a most insulting, taunting manner!) that because a commenter called themselves an Episcopalian that they practice Goddess Worship reflects very poorly on both your thinking abilities and your humanity.

sigh…it was put on the DENOMINATION’S WEB SITE…so if the denomination didn’t approve why did they put it on? you have no common sense at all….try logic 101 sheesh…

and then I put two other examples of goddess worship in the episcopal church…and its still ‘one loony outlier’ which is ANOTHER lie.

There is a lot of turmoil within the Episcopal Church between conservatives and liberals. The fact that some churches encourage pagan goddess worship is deplorable, but to state that they represent the entire church (and by extention, its laity) is false (note that I do not use your deplorable tactic and call you a “liar”).

no its true. they put in on the denomination’s OWN WEB SITE…so OBVIOUSLY THEY APPROVE OF IT…how hard is this?

and its in more than just one church…does that tell you anything??

here’s another example:

On the Women’s Ministry page of the national Church’s website, bibliographies on spiritual and theological subjects recommend a number of works on feminist paganism. For example, one such recommended work is Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom, Bride of God.

http://johnstowntypewriterconservatory.com/crimes.htm

how many examples do you need? its beyond laughable.

BTW, great job using a story about a defrocked Catholic and former Episcopal minister to buttress your specious contention that the Episcopal church formally endorses pagan goddess worship.

Truly pathetic…

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 10:52 AM

are you talking about matthew fox?

according to wikipedia:

Matthew Fox (born 1940) is an American Episcopal priest and theologian.[1]

Fox was an early and influential exponent of a movement that came to be known as Creation Spirituality, a movement that draws inspiration from the mystical philosophies of such medieval Catholic visionaries as Hildegard of Bingen, Thomas Aquinas,Saint Francis of Assisi, Julian of Norwich, Dante Alighieri, Meister Eckhart and Nicholas of Cusa, as well as the wisdom traditions of Christian scriptures, following traditions that some scholars say were first laid out by Jesus.[2]

doesn’t say anything about FORMER…looks like another lie on your part…

TRULY PATHETIC….and laughable…

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 12:30 PM

doesn’t say anything about FORMER…looks like another lie on your part…
right4life on December 21, 2010 at 12:30 PM

Here’s the headline to the story YOU linked to!:

Defrocked Catholic Priest Leads Earth Worship Seminar
Former Dominican Turned Episcopalian Praises Gaia, ‘Goddess’

Defrocked…Former…

Keep up the good work!/

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 12:37 PM

Defrocked…Former…

Keep up the good work!/

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 12:37 PM

uh gomer…he’s a defrocked Catholic…and still an EPISCOPAL PRIEST duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 12:39 PM

BTW, great job using a story about a defrocked Catholic and former Episcopal minister to buttress your specious contention that the Episcopal church formally endorses pagan goddess worship.

Truly pathetic…

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 10:52 AM

you said he is a FORMER EPISCOPAL MINISTER…must be tough to keep all those lies straight….

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 12:41 PM

uh did you read what you wrote? you admitted you lied about me when you accused me of being an ‘anti-mormon bigot’

It wasn’t a LIE you obnoxious jackass. I said I confused you with another commenter who is known for her anti-mormon bigotry, and thus I retracted that charge. Do you need a dictionary, because 3 letter words like “lie” seem to stymie you?

sigh…it was put on the DENOMINATION’S WEB SITE…so if the denomination didn’t approve why did they put it on? you have no common sense at all….try logic 101 sheesh…

It was on a reading list. It was taken off the list when Episcopalians complained. Are those Episcopalians heretics? That’s a rhetorical question – don’t bother trying to answer it.

Moreover, just because something appears on a reading list for discussion does not mean it is an endorsement. I already explained this to you, but you (who cannot even manage to start a sentence with a capital letter) are too dense to understand this. What you referred to was on their idiotic feminist page. There’s all sorts of nonsense there that Episcopalians don’t embrace as central to Episcopal doctrine. The church has a large share of loons but it is slander to suggest that all Episcopalians embrace this Druid worship crapola.

As for the former Dominican Episcopalian, sorry I did get that wrong, but the bottom line is that this person is one individual, and does not represent all Episcopalians or all Episcopal priests.

Stop digging.

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 12:59 PM

Bennett you’re either being deliberately obtuse or your just not that smart.

Every officer has the option of resignation, it does not have to be accepted, but that choice is available. Resigning can certainly be done to make a point, but in no stretch of the imagination can you consider it a coup de’etat. See the example of Gen Singlaub resigning over Carter’s intent to withdraw from Korea. His resignation was effective in bringing attention to the issue and thwarting Carter’s plan. However, no challenge to the civilian authority ensued.

You want to quantify weakness that I talk about and yet it’s evident to anyone that want to look. I spoke of the injury rates and unfit for duty rates of women vs men. An occupational study says;

while women had significantly more injuries during scheduled training, schemes, and exercises than men (p<0.0001), there were few differences in the cause of those injuries. Women had longer average hospital stays compared to men due to these injuries (9.3 days vs 7.4 days, p=0.002), although these injuries were not more severe

Read the report in the Congressional Record on the effect of integrating women into the Services on a large scale;

http://books.google.com/books?id=yh5PKXIKU3IC&pg=PA14567&lpg=PA14567&dq=injury+rates+of+women+vs+men+in+the+military&source=bl&ots=5wWgbuHn0F&sig=gbSb1KjDbxRJYSXSQo9v8rxKzMo&hl=en

Women are 8 times more likely to get injured in basic training. And that’s using easier standards.

Servicewomen in initial entry training have twice the rate of musculoskeletal injuries. Presently, stress fracture incidence rates for the US Army range from 3.4 – 21.0% for women compared to 0.9 – 5.2% for men in recruit training.

Half of pregnant Soldiers failed to return to their prepregnancy fitness levels 6-9 months postpartum, at least one third were overfat, and postpartum Soldiers were four times more likely to fail the APFT at their first postpartum fitness test compared to nonpregnant female Soldiers

A 1992 study found that 9% of women were unable to deploy to Desert Storm vs 2% of men. The majority of reasons were physical with pregnancy being a major factor.

It should not take a great leap of logic to understand that a physically weaker more injury prone force affects overall combat performance.

It also shouldn’t be hard to discern that a less qualified leader promoted because of race over a more qualified individual will impact the combat capability of the force.

No one can say how homosexuals will impact the force. The fact that some have served and serve now is not indicative since they have done so without revealing themselves. Only time will tell how it affects our capability.

Surely you can no longer deny to obvious, that these things weaken us. Some of those weaknesses we can quantify, like deployment rates, but others, like morale and cohesion we can’t. And those may be even more important.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 1:10 PM

TturnP on December 21, 2010 at 12:30 PM

Actually T if it was a case of “freeing a man to fight” I’d be all for it. However, in reality you are placing a woman in the place of a man who should be in the fight, or supporting the fight. There is no reason in the world a country the size of ours (308 million) we couldn’t field an active all male force of approximately 1.5 millon. The fact that we don’t makes us less effective.

My driver in OIF 1 was a WM. A nice young woman but physically incapable of lifting a HMMWV tire. And, when dealing with the Iraqi’s we spent as much time keeping them from feeling her as we did talking issues. A distraction.

In Desert Storm when we returned from Kuwait to Saudi Arabia we were put into Camp 15, an oil camp, to clean gear and await redeployment. The WM’s were in a separate barracks. After several incidents of breaking in (or invited in) we had to place male guards on the barracks. A distraction. I won’t even go into the case of the Dental Tech who decided to sunbathe in a bikini on top of a CONEX box while truckloads of infantry were coming into the camp. She’s lucky the dentist saw her and got her down before she was gang raped. A distraction and an idiot.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 1:31 PM

I’m sorry Sooner was your WM taking you to the frontline and back. It is funny that you bring up how she couldn’t of lift a HMMWV tire when I have met quite a few male Marines in my day where I could run faster, do more pushes and yada, yada, yada. It is a tired argument. So while we are physically different there are quite a few males that would seem to bring down the effectiveness and efficientcy.

We are in Iraq and Afgan. similare to Kuwait in that they are all Arab nations where females are to be unseen and unheard yet the females are out in view even more than in OIF 1 are you going to tell me that we are being less effective because of them? You are going to have to find another argument seeing as females are taking care of the searches of Muslim females where males would get NO WHERE and without the females Marines, Marines and others would be in more danger. Destraction, I think not.

Being back in the rear, cleaning gear somehow destractions don’t seem as threating as being in the front. You mean to tell me that you don’t know exactly what happened at the barracks but that destraction was some how putting lives in danger…in the rear?

Dental Tech? When did the Marine Corps get Dental Techs? Oh, thats right they didn’t because Dental Techs are in the Navy! So now the Navy should get rid of their women because they were a destraction…in the rear?

TturnP on December 21, 2010 at 2:10 PM

It wasn’t a LIE you obnoxious jackass. I said I confused you with another commenter who is known for her anti-mormon bigotry, and thus I retracted that charge. Do you need a dictionary, because 3 letter words like “lie” seem to stymie you?

yeah whatever…the point is you made the charge. it was nice of you to retract it. but it points to a pattern…just like you accusing of ‘smearing’ the episcopals…when that charge is just as assinine.

It was on a reading list. It was taken off the list when Episcopalians complained. Are those Episcopalians heretics? That’s a rhetorical question – don’t bother trying to answer it.

I’m glad they did…but are those people still episcopal priests?? apparently so…so they removed the web page…but the people remain. and thats the bottom line.

What you referred to was on their idiotic feminist page. There’s all sorts of nonsense there that Episcopalians don’t embrace as central to Episcopal doctrine. The church has a large share of loons but it is slander to suggest that all Episcopalians embrace this Druid worship crapola.

its obviously idiotic, but it is on their denomination’s web site…not just some ‘loony church’.

and gomer, I never said all episcopalians embrace druid worship. but those priests are still there…what does that tell you?

As for the former Dominican Episcopalian, sorry I did get that wrong, but the bottom line is that this person is one individual, and does not represent all Episcopalians or all Episcopal priests.

Stop digging.

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 12:59 PM

he’s not the only one..and he’s still an EPISCOPAL PRIEST…sigh….

you must be masochistic.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 2:13 PM

She’s lucky the dentist saw her and got her down before she was gang raped. A distraction and an idiot.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 1:31 PM

So gays in the military will cause a distraction and weaken us, but our heterosexual soldiers are so undisciplined that they will go from zero to gang rape immediately if they see a bikini clad woman?

Chazz on December 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM

he’s not the only one..and he’s still an EPISCOPAL PRIEST…sigh….
right4life on December 21, 2010 at 2:13 PM

Why are you arguing points I never made? I never counted how many there are out there! My point is very simple: This is not official doctrine of the Episcopal church and any “priests” who engage in this activity are outliers.

Bishop Charles Bennison of Pennsylvania wrote:

Accusations against two local priests that they are practicing druids and in violation of their ordination vows are extremely serious and merit further inquiries to establish the facts, the Rt. Rev. Charles E. Bennison, Jr., Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Pennsylvania, said Friday.

Eventually we get to:

An Episcopal priest who, with his wife, faced discipline from the church after the couple’s leadership of local Druids became public has resigned from his Downingtown church.

BTW, there are Methodist, Lutheran, and Catholic churches who have been used by these GAIA worshippers. I do hope you don’t belong to any of those congregations lest I accuse you of being a Goddess worshipper.

Buy Danish on December 21, 2010 at 3:12 PM

T are you seriously going to tell me that the upper body strength of the average woman is equivalent to a man? And that because you can do more “pushes” than some men that establishes that women in the military don’t lower the overall phyical readiness? Good luck selling that BS.

By the way, Marines don’t do “pushes”. They do pull ups. Oh wait, WMs don’t do they. They do a flexed arm hang. Why is that? Because they don’t have upper body strength.

Yes, my driver was in the front lines while the situation was fluid. When it was urban fighting or when it stablized I drove or got another Marine to drive. I did take her rifle with me though.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 4:36 PM

Why are you arguing points I never made? I never counted how many there are out there! My point is very simple: This is not official doctrine of the Episcopal church and any “priests” who engage in this activity are outliers.

there shouldn’t be one…that they would put it on their web site tells me all I need to know. apparently Fox is still a priest….and they have this one:

The debate is not just academic. In two current cases, Episcopal clergy are under scrutiny for practicing and promoting other religions. On February 12 a devotee of Zen Buddhism was elected bishop of the Episcopal Church’s Northern Michigan diocese. Meanwhile, a Seattle-area priest has been given until March 30 to decide whether she is a Muslim or a Christian as her bishop will not permit her to profess both faiths.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/marchweb-only/112-53.0.html

this is insane. they should rename themselves the first church of anti-christ.

BTW, there are Methodist, Lutheran, and Catholic churches who have been used by these GAIA worshippers. I do hope you don’t belong to any of those congregations lest I accuse you of being a Goddess worshipper.

no sorry. they shouldn’t allow these other faiths to use their facilities…but its far worse to have a priest that practices these other faiths…too bad you can’t see that.

right4life on December 21, 2010 at 8:23 PM

Now things get dicey, as the liberal mind continues to unravel as it continues to use the DOD for social experimentation.

The issue(s) are actually simple to understand. The goal assuming control/favor over human social norms-relationships between men and women and gays.

First, placing women into a combat role in the military endangers both sexes. The male soldier is distracted when a female is placed in combat with them because social norms dictate the male protect the female, While the other norm is just as bad.

Second, letting gays serve in the military means they too must be placed into combat situations, but now leadership is mandated to order all menders to accept the gay lifestyle. However, similar to women in combat, leaders must tell the man you must accept this lifestyle as normal. However, the reaction will, unlike protection of the female, this policy exposes the gay member to be shunned by their fellow military and possibly result in the opposite reaction of letting the gay member fending for themselves, which oft can lead to their being needlessly exposed to being wounded or seriously wounded.

MSGTAS on December 22, 2010 at 8:47 AM

blink on December 21, 2010 at 3:29 PM

Total force the Marine Corps has approx. 202,000 give or take. Of that 202,000, 12,500 (give or take) are female. Apply your bell curve or the law of adverages or what you want, if what SoonerMarine is saying is correct, it is truly a sad day in the Marine Corps then. When 5% or 6% brings down the effectiveness of the other 94% or 95% then we really are not the fighting force we claim to be.

SoonerMarine on December 21, 2010 at 4:36 PM

Re-read above because I do believe I admit physically men and women are different. But there are men that I beat out when we would mess around at PT. And yes, there were a couple that I did more pull-ups. Just as there were a couple of guys that could do the flexed arm hang but the majority couldn’t. I did not claim to be stronger than most males or any of that nonsense. But just like we had some weak males in our unit, you had a weak female in yours. Don’t paint all the females with a broad brush. I tried not to paint all males with a broad brush because if I did you, Sooner, would have no bearing, no professionalism and no leadership skills because somewhere between you head and your crotch it was lost. Somehow it is our responsability as the females to make sure you and the other males are in check? No, because you don’t believe men should have to be in check at all. Rather than you being the ones to control the apperently out of control genitals shouldn’t have to worry about control just get rid of the women. It isn’t my responsability to make you and other males view me or anyother female Marine as a Marine and not a sexual object or anything else. In fact it is a really piss poor showing of male Marine because if they can’t control what is in their pants…what else can’t they control?

On a side note, be glad I wasn’t your driver, I would have rifle butted you in the head for trying to take my weapon. Sorry your pistol didn’t hack it but you would not be taking my weapon.

TturnP on December 22, 2010 at 9:23 AM

blink on December 22, 2010 at 11:06 AM

Of course 5% to 6% can reduce the overall effectiveness of any group. In fact, 1% can reduce the effectiveness of any group. In fact, 0.01% can reduce the effectiveness of any group.

I suppose that would depend on where the definition of effectiveness lies. Effectiveness in combat? Well women can’t go to the frontline so guess that area can be counted out.

Why not? It’s absolutely appropriate to paint demographics with broad brushes in order to analyze statistically significant issues which exist.

I guess then all men are rapist since some idiot decided to wear a bikin and the first thought was she was going to get herself gang raped.

I don’t think you can paint all women with a “broad brush” when it comes to body structure because it is a fact. I believe I already admitted that fact also here…

So while we are physically different

and here

Re-read above because I do believe I admit physically men and women are different.

I’m thinking all the analyzing and statistically significat issues point to why women aren’t in combat and won’t be in combat and that IN COMBAT women would bring down the effectiveness. However, the whole issue isn’t about women in combat it is women in the Marine Corps or the military in general. Right? Considering that women can’t be in combat or for a better definition units that engage in offensive battle tactics. However, the Marine Corps is smart enough to know that they can use their women more effeciently and effectively if they train them in the defensive tactics.

TturnP on December 22, 2010 at 12:12 PM

Sorry not sure how the quotes got all messed up.

TturnP on December 22, 2010 at 12:15 PM

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