Oh my: Standalone DADT repeal bill passes House as Olympia Snowe flips to yes in Senate

posted at 6:10 pm on December 15, 2010 by Allahpundit

They already passed an amendment to repeal DADT back in May, but that was part of a broader defense bill. Today’s vote was on the standalone DADT bill that Lieberman and Collins are hoping to put in front of the Senate next week. The vote in May: 234-194, with just five Republicans voting yes. The vote today: 250-175, with 15 Republicans in the majority. (Among the 10 who flipped to yes this time: Jeff Flake.) It was smart of Pelosi to force a vote in the House, just as it was smart of Reid to table the vote on the DREAM Act so that the House could go first. In each case, the fact that the lower chamber’s already passed a corresponding bill ratchets up the pressure on Senate fencesitters.

In fact, it’s already paying dividends. Olympia Snowe was one of the 40 no votes last week on the defense bill that had a DADT repeal provision in it, but suddenly on the standalone bill she’s had a change of heart:

“After careful analysis of the comprehensive report compiled by the Department of Defense and thorough consideration of the testimony provided by the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the service chiefs, I support repeal of the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ law,” Snowe said in a statement.

Remember, the sticking point for Scott Brown and Murkowski (but not Collins!) has been the procedural posture of the DADT vote, not the substance. They claim they’re in favor of repeal, but they want the tax deal finalized — which could happen tomorrow — and they wanted more time for debate on the broader defense bill. I’m not sure how those procedural objections will translate to the new standalone DADT bill. It could be that Brown, Murkowski, and Snowe all vote yes, which would actually put Reid at 61 votes for cloture, or they could all vote no for whatever procedural reason, leaving Reid stuck at 58. Or maybe Snowe alone will join Collins in voting yes, putting Reid one thin vote away from the magic number. If that happens, the pressure on Manchin to switch from no to yes will be overwhelming, especially since one of his aides said after last week’s vote that he probably would have voted differently if he had been the 60th vote. Long story short, anything can happen, but they’re tantalizingly close to finally getting this done. Exit question: After threatening to hold the lame duck session over until January 4th if need be to deal with the START treaty and other business, Reid basically has to bring this bill to the floor now, right? Gay activists aren’t going to accept “we ran out of time” as an excuse.


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Tell you what, find a poll not done by an overtly Liberal

Organization that supports this. American is 75 % Christian, 54% Conservative. There is no way that the majority of Americans favor this. And it was clearly the majority of Americans that expressed a return to Conservative values on November 2nd. Or did you sleep though it?

kingsjester on December 15, 2010 at 6:34 PM

How about Fox News?

FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Feb. 2-3, 2010. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all registered voters).

.

“Do you favor or oppose allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military?”

.

Favor Oppose Unsure
% % %
ALL 61 30 9
Democrats 82 15 3
Republicans 44 46 10
Independents 62 26 13

http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm

Jimbo3 on December 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM

Ah! Another cannoncocker! 05′s or the pig?

BKeyser on December 15, 2010 at 7:46 PM

05 school, 4.2 mortars viet-nam, 155 S.P.s after we were overrun in Aug68, back to 05′s in Gitmo where I was promoted to E-5 assigned my own battery then through the convenience of the government(honorably) discharged.

fourdeucer on December 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM

So now you’re alleging a vast left-wing conspiracy to hide the opposition to ending DADT? I’m beginning to suspect you’re having a bit of fun at my expense.

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 7:46 PM

Don’t have the foggiest notion to what you’re referring, or what your beef even is as to why you’d direct whatever my way.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM

And regarding what the Generals / leaders of the Military were quoted as saying regarding DADT to any of the troops that didn’t like showering with someone scoping them out or what have you.

Generals to straight troops……….GET OUT!!!

Will the straight troops be able to file harassment charges against someone that supports a “hostile” environment. Will the military even be supportive of straight troops that report behaviour like this?


Destroy the military
…………..more DOTUS work.

PappyD61 on December 15, 2010 at 7:52 PM

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 7:46 PM

As to “a vast leftwing conspiracy,” I didn’t make that allegation.

I do note, however, the socio-political excessees of the Let today. That’s hardly a secret to anyone paying attention.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:52 PM

the Let today.

…the Left today.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:53 PM

It doesn’t sound as if he just had a yen to go tell people ‘guess what? I’m gay!’ one day, so I don’t think your point is valid.

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 7:23 PM

An interesting story. I see you are far more informed than you earlier attempted to maintain that you were.

You refuse to recognize security compromises even when they’re staring you in the face there.

I already addressed my concerns about this issue in earlier comments, not interested in beating your dead horse there.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:57 PM

There’s a book:
.
“Greek Homosexuality”, Dover, K.J.,
Harvard U. Press, Cambridge MA, 1978-1989
ISBN 0-674-36270-5 (paperback)
.
It’s a rather thorough study of the surviving writings and pottery relating to homosecusl activity in Classical Greece (roughly 600BC to at least 338BC); it reads like a 1950s anthropological study.
.
The executive takeaway from the book is this: Classical Greece, a civilization that considered itself the pinnacle of human achievement (and had perhaps the highest social acceptance of homosexual behavior, ever), eventually, and due to internal factors, rejected homosexual conduct as an acceptible behavior.
.
There is, of course, a lot more detail and information; population control is mentioned (as the Greeks colonizing the Med. –> think China today, with 10 20 possibly 30 million extra males growing up, and whose matching females are already dead) but the historical result remains the same. And it’s all pre-Christian, pre-America, pre-Europe, …
.
Now, it looks like we’re going to re-create the grand experiment. And we’re doing it not because people’s mores changed, but because someone sued, and a judge decided … and an assortment of politicians and bureaucrats think they know better.

I predict a backlash, and soon. The homosexual community (for lack of a better term ) played it’s cards all wrong.
.
Lawfare is just a bad idea; letting unelected, unaccountable, untouchable lords dictate things has always ended badly for some; remember who were among the first to be hauled of to concentration camps in late 1930s Germany?
.
Sit back, do nothing, maybe play the “population control” card, was a much better choice. Too late now.
.

Arbalest on December 15, 2010 at 8:02 PM

Um, first of all, I strongly disagree with the notion that if you use the word ‘people’, you’re a left-winger. That’s just a mite bit silly. And it is, after all, our (i.e. the American people’s) military.

But as to your main point, how is this a ploy to remake our military? ‘Remake’ in what way? Homosexuals already serve in the armed forces, all this policy change will do is make it so people like that translator don’t need to worry that if they slip up and accidentally out themselves they’ll be discharged. How is that a big change?

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM

You are perceptually compromised.

As in, I never suggested nor alluded to such a thing: “that using the word, ‘people’, someone’s a left-winger.”

If someone “slips up and accidentally out(s) themselves,” well, woops, didn’t mean to hit that “fire” button, sir, and the tank going 75 mph out of the garage was just a slip-up, too, oops, sorreee.”

You sound as if you’re sixteen years old, chronologically or mentally.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 8:04 PM

And Mullen has patently, blatantly lied before Congress and the American public time and time again about DADT and why he “feels” it should be repealed.

No one’s asking, then no one’s telling. Mullen claims people are “required to lie” because of DADT. If no one’s asking, who’s lying?

Mullen simply wants to accommodate the telling — he’s after a different military function and it’s politically motivated. At the bidding of his political peers and President.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:40 PM

So when has it become okay to accuse soldiers and generals of lying? You’re the right wing equivalent of what MoveOn did to General Petraeus.

Jimbo3 on December 15, 2010 at 8:05 PM

fourdeucer on December 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM

Outstanding.

Myself- 05′s for a year including one WestPac -we were the first to deploy with the HMMWV and the LCAC- then two years on the M198. I got a B-billet to HQMC in Arlington as security for the CNO in the Pentagon and finished out my time there. Picked up Sgt through a Regimental Board at Las Pulgas, CampPen before the transfer came through. I was teaching Section Chief School for 11th Marines at the time.

BKeyser on December 15, 2010 at 8:05 PM

I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks of DADT, but Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins and Richard Lugar cannot be trusted. (Yes, I’m aware that Snowe is the one who voted for DADT). I’m just telling you those three people are NOT team players and cannot be trusted.

Oink on December 15, 2010 at 8:06 PM

As to “a vast leftwing conspiracy,” I didn’t make that allegation.

I do note, however, the socio-political excessees of the Let today. That’s hardly a secret to anyone paying attention.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:52 PM

Lourdes, you explicitly said Obama, working with Mullen and Gates, is engaged in an “attack on our military”, and that, in order to further such, have literally sabotaged service members’ attempts to object to this policy change: “their attempts to even respond to this “poll” process was thwarted: didn’t go through, screen fell dark, “enter” pressed, screen disappeared, nothing sent”. In other words you are claiming a conspiracy against our armed forces by the left wing: hence, a left-wing conspiracy. Get it? The fact that you’re apparently not joking says to me you must be some fundamentally unserious Alex Jones-type. You really should avoid conspiracy theories, it’s bad for one’s mental health.

Also, you said, in response to my request for a source as to your allegations regarding gay service members deliberately mis-translating documents to get revenge on the military:

Oh, riggght, a Wiki page or something, maybe a post at HuffPo about it, riight. Find your own information, I’ve found mine.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 7:50 PM

So you’re making a very serious allegation, that I have never heard anywhere else, and can’t find any evidence of via a web search, and refusing to supply a source for your assertions. Again, this is typical for Alex Jones and his ilk of conspiracy mongers. You may not want to believe every unsourced rumor you hear, just because it supports your preconceived notions.

Just some friendly advice from me to you.

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 8:07 PM

Just some friendly advice from me to you.

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 8:07 PM

Citizens have a right to criticize their government. It’s called Free Speech. It’s in our Bill of Rights.

Try reading it some time.

“Allegations” are not what I’ve engaged in. I’ve made my opinions known and there is no need for me or anyone else to feel shame or fear for having done so. IF persons such as yourself want to embed threats posed as “advice,” then, that’s another story.

Take your own advice and stop threatening persons whose opinions you disagree with.

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 8:18 PM

Just some friendly advice from me to you.

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 8:07 PM

But it’s not really “friendly advice,” now is it, “Inkblots”?

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 8:18 PM

A different take worth a second look, particularly survey question #81:
“24% will leave the military or think about leaving sooner than planned. (One half million troops will QUIT the service early…”
-

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/2297115596.html

diogenes on December 15, 2010 at 8:18 PM

So you’re making a very serious allegation, that I have never heard anywhere else, and can’t find any evidence of via a web search, and refusing to supply a source for your assertions. Again, this is typical for Alex Jones and his ilk of conspiracy mongers. You may not want to believe every unsourced rumor you hear, just because it supports your preconceived notions.

Just some friendly advice from me to you.

Inkblots on December 15, 2010 at 8:07 PM

(1.) I don’t read Alex Jones and tend to disrespect much of what he’s been quoted as alleging by others;

(2.) My opinions are not “allegations” as to my criticism of my government and those opinions have been abundantly, reasonably explained;

(3.) You have no idea what I “can find” or “cannot find” and you’re expressing a deranged perspective there in even stating you can “know” as much.

Is your little soap opera nearly over yet? Have you discovered blogspot yet?

Lourdes on December 15, 2010 at 8:20 PM

Is being gay immoral?

MJBrutus on December 15, 2010 at 6:51 PM

Yes.

scotash on December 15, 2010 at 7:50 PM

Thank you the straight (so to speak) answer. It helps to be able to ID the ignorant bigots and thus not having to waste my time with the likes of you.

MJBrutus on December 15, 2010 at 8:31 PM

Gays and lesbians are already serving their country, honorably. But, they are forbidden by law that they can’t tell/admit to anyone that they are homosexual or they will be discharged. What a great working environment! Relax folks, RuPaul will not be enlisting.

SC.Charlie on December 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM

Even when the inevitable draft brings in new (inexperienced unmotivated) recruits, the skills, experience, and pure ferocity of our elite volunteer troops will be gone forever.

Rebar on December 15, 2010 at 7:39 PM

According to a Rand Corporation study, repealing DADT will reduce recruitment by 7%. At 180,000 or so per year that is almost 13,000. This versus the roughly two hundred and change expelled do to DADT in the last year I can find stats (2005).

Can we afford to lose 13,000 of our men per year for this policy change?

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 8:37 PM

Sodom=Washington & Gomorrah=San Fransico. God have mercy on our country but damn those who disrespect it.

wepeople on December 15, 2010 at 8:39 PM

We have a government out of control. The fact that this is being done in a lame duck congress is a national shame.

whbates on December 15, 2010 at 8:45 PM

MJBrutus on December 15, 2010 at 8:31 PM

Is having an abortion immoral??

If you asked some one from a religious point of view, maybe they would say yes. And they’d be ignorant bigots too??

Good call there Captain Tolerance…

BigWyo on December 15, 2010 at 8:47 PM

Who gives a rats ass about DADT…

crazywater on December 15, 2010 at 8:48 PM

Exit answer: Stand alone?

No, NO, NO!

It has to be loaded up with greasy gobs of bacon laden pork piled upon PORK!

Cue the hostage takers.

locomotivebreath1901 on December 15, 2010 at 8:49 PM

Don’t know. Don’t care.

Dandapani on December 15, 2010 at 8:50 PM

We have a government out of control. The fact that this is being done in a lame duck congress is a national shame.

whbates on December 15, 2010 at 8:45 PM

+1,000,000!

Jenfidel on December 15, 2010 at 8:51 PM

Who gives a rats ass about DADT…

crazywater on December 15, 2010 at 8:48 PM

The troops currently being shot at by jihadis. They’ve said no, now we must try to persuade our “elected representatives” to do what are men in the field want.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 8:53 PM

I’m heading for DC locked and loaded…..enough is enough!

dmann on December 15, 2010 at 9:08 PM

Who gives a rats ass about DADT…

crazywater on December 15, 2010 at 8:48 PM

The troops currently being shot at by jihadis. They’ve said no, now we must try to persuade our “elected representatives” to do what are men in the field want.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 8:53 PM

So our troops are more worried by knowing that the guy next to him might be gay, than the crazed jihadis? Remember that that guy next to him is already there, but just can’t tell or admit that he is gay.

SC.Charlie on December 15, 2010 at 9:14 PM

Charlie, you don’t get it. Soldiers who currently serve honorably are going to start wearing pink berets and having sex in the barracks if DADT is lifted.

Chazz on December 15, 2010 at 9:23 PM

A list of countries that allow homosexuals to serve openly in the military, and those that don’t.

Some highlights from the “openly” category:

Australia (since 1992)
Israel (since 1993)
Russia (since 2003)
United Kingdom (since 2000)
And don’t forget Poland.

The list includes some of the ablest and largest armies in the world, including many of our allies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Some highlights from the “banned” category:

Cuba
Iran
North Korea
Syria

It’s good to know our policy puts us somewhere between “most democratic societies” and “just about every totalitarian whack job in the world.”

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:29 PM

Obama and Reid have taken the US out of the #1 spot economically. Now they have done the same with the military. It’s been nice being a super power. Good luck to China as it takes over the #1 spot.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:31 PM

If you think political correctness is bad in the civilian world wait for it in the military. These cry baby gays are going to have a complaint a day each. The brass will not even think about looking into any cases where gays are targeting straights. And for those of you that say gays are already serving you are right but they are kept in line because of DADT. Once that is lifted you will see flamers in the barracks and flirting with straights, to say nothing of the new level of “Horseplay” in the showers. The gay backing crowd all say that existing laws about fraternizing with another service member will control the gays have never served in the military. Imagine the new sounds coming from a foxhole near you when two gays are in it together! One last thing, the brass says that any member that doesn’t like DADT should resign. Good luck on getting out of any branch right now.

inspectorudy on December 15, 2010 at 9:32 PM

So our troops are more worried by knowing that the guy next to him might be gay, than the crazed jihadis? Remember that that guy next to him is already there, but just can’t tell or admit that he is gay.

SC.Charlie on December 15, 2010 at 9:14 PM

Nice to see you hold our troops in such high regard Charlie. Perhaps we should issue them neon orange fatigues to? Because apparently, you don’t believe their jobs are tough enough as it is…

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 9:32 PM

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:29 PM

Israel has 5 million citizens with 1 billion people surrounding them who want to kill every Israeli. They don’t have much of a choice as to who can serve.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:34 PM

It’s good to know our policy puts us somewhere between “most democratic societies” and “just about every totalitarian whack job in the world.”

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:29 PM

Because as we know, we must be more like the “elite” warriors of the Netherlands, and less like Americans…right? Perhaps next we could go down the list of other un-PC things the military does – like kill people and break things? Most of gay friendly Europe has.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 9:34 PM

Obama and Reid have taken the US out of the #1 spot economically. Now they have done the same with the military. It’s been nice being a super power. Good luck to China as it takes over the #1 spot.

DADT hasn’t even been repealed, yet the Chinese are already a greater military power than the USA? If that fantasy was even remotely true, then China eclipsing the USA’s military strength would happen even if DADT remains.

Tjord.

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:36 PM

And what are you basing this on? Have you even so much as read a single blog post at GOProud? And where do you get “special rights” from…all that’s desired is EQUAL rights…the right to not have to lie about who you are, and the right to marry the person you love.

JetBoy on December 15, 2010 at 7:00 PM

I’m basing it on something called “REALITY,” which is something that you cling to your denial of in order to get through your day. Changing the definition of marriage to suit a group of people who “want to marry who they love lust after” is not about equality. You have equality. You want to change reality to suit yourself. That isn’t equality. That’s “special rights.”

As for lying about who you are? That’s a bunch of bunk, too. We need to endanger our military forces so your homosexual comrades can be “out” in the name of equality. Sorry. You just shutting your mouth is not the same as “lying,” to anyone with an ability to use logic, but I realize you’re committed to staying in your little world of denial.

JannyMae on December 15, 2010 at 9:37 PM

Oh, and I’m amused that when 52% of the populace votes for Obama, it is a landslide. However, when a “study” conducted by one of Obama’s flunkies still finds 63 percent of the military oppose getting rid of DADT that means nothing.

It would be interesting to see, also, of the remaining 37% how many said no because they want the pre-Clinton policy brought back.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 9:39 PM

inspectorudy on December 15, 2010 at 9:32 PM

Don’t forget the random “piss test”. Who’s watching who?

milwife88 on December 15, 2010 at 9:39 PM

DADT hasn’t even been repealed, yet the Chinese are already a greater military power than the USA? If that fantasy was even remotely true, then China eclipsing the USA’s military strength would happen even if DADT remains.

Tjord.

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:36 PM

Put the crack pipe down, walk away, clear your head and read what I wrote again.

I said once DADT is repealed, China will be the #1 military. Not overnight but over time as true warriors will want nothing to do with any longer. Unless you think a military comprised of the average San Francisco resident will be worth a damn?

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:39 PM

I said once DADT is repealed, China will be the #1 military. Not overnight but over time as true warriors will want nothing to do with any longer. Unless you think a military comprised of the average San Francisco resident will be worth a damn?

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:39 PM

I’m also intrigued by how those that want gay activists in the military believe they will make up the numbers we will lose of soldiers who don’t want them, even ignoring the issue of quality of soldiers.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 9:42 PM

Put the crack pipe down, walk away, clear your head and read what I wrote again.

I said once DADT is repealed, China will be the #1 military. Not overnight but over time as true warriors will want nothing to do with any longer. Unless you think a military comprised of the average San Francisco resident will be worth a damn?

Technically, that isn’t what you said. Perhaps that what you meant, but what you said was:

Obama and Reid have taken the US out of the #1 spot economically. Now they have done the same with the military. It’s been nice being a super power. Good luck to China as it takes over the #1 spot.

But, uh, “crack pipe.” Bravo. Yeah, the guy induling in fears about China surpassing the USA’s military prowess because gays might be permitted to serve openly.

So then, let’s take the next step in your fantasy dystopia: if the USA permitted females to service “in direct combat”, what countries would then be more militarily powerful than the USA? ho ho ho crack pipe

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:44 PM

ahahahhahaha crack pipe… dude, show that one to your kids. ahahahhaha my sides – they split

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:45 PM

Israel has 5 million citizens with 1 billion people surrounding them who want to kill every Israeli. They don’t have much of a choice as to who can serve.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:34 PM

I guess they’re policy is working.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 9:34 PM

There are a lot of countries on that list besides the Netherlands.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:46 PM

their policy, even.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:46 PM

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:44 PM

Whatever. You know fully well what I meant and what I said. You’re playing the semantics game because you can’t counter argue the point.

China is building its military for war. We’re building our military for political correctness. Who do you think will have a stronger military when all is said and done?

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:46 PM

Have you even so much as read a single blog post at GOProud?

JetBoy on December 15, 2010 at 7:00 PM

No, but I’ll bet you have.

By the way, how are your “Jetties” doing?

bw222 on December 15, 2010 at 9:47 PM

This place is crawling with RINOs tonight.

bw222 on December 15, 2010 at 9:48 PM

We have a government out of control. The fact that this is being done in a lame duck congress is a national shame.

whbates on December 15, 2010 at 8:45 PM

You’re absolutely right. Freaking cowards, liars, thieves and communists. Whoa partner, guess I’m a redneck extremist.

Oh well, even if they do this, it can be short lived. If Palin is elected or any conservative of character and courage, this can be changed again.
Homosexuals are not going to rule this nation. I admit, I can get frustrated just like anyone can. But then a little light shines through and I remember. I remember history. Different times and events and I remember how one thing changed it all… revival. Revival has changed whole towns, cities and nations. America needs revival. I think it is actually beginning to happen, but we’re not there yet.
We have two years left of Obama. Imagine what he will during the few months he is left in office after he loses in 2012.
For all you gay conservatives out there. Take a look at who your friends are and how they are going about repealing DADT. If you’re happy about this process, then you cannot be a conservative.

I again say.. if you can force a straight man to shower and sleep with a gay man then there is no reason to not force a female straight soldier to shower and sleep with straight male soldier. I will tell you why they don’t like this argument, it’s because it clearly defines and exposes this issue. Everybody knows it would be wrong to force women to shower and sleep with men. Everybody understands that is wrong and that is why that topic is avoided. And why don’t they do that? That would disrupt the mission. But homosexuals don’t? Sure.
Yeah, this isn’t about the homosexual movement. Ultimately, they are just being used. Democrats use the poor, the blacks, the Hispanics and they also use the homosexuals. This is about destroying our military and weakening America.

Gays think is all about them. Well, if they repeal DADT and we don’t get conservative control of our government again within the next few years to repeal all of this garbage, enjoy the celebration. You’ll be celebrating your wonderful homosexual victory on a sinking ship. America has little time left to get fixed. Our massive debt, our wrecked economy, increasing police state, dumb down education system and a new wonderful gay military (all while we are a continued target of Islamic Fascists) and, well, there just won’t be anything left of what was once a great and free strong nation.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 9:48 PM

ahahahhahaha crack pipe… dude, show that one to your kids. ahahahhaha my sides – they split

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:45 PM

That’s it. Ignore the salient points and concentrate on the joke. Typical of a liberal who has no facts to argue, just emotions.

Just remember, a weak military hurts you as much as me. Actually it hurts liberals more. Al Qaeda isn’t going to blow shit up in my town, but it will blow shit up in NYC and San Francisco. Good luck with that.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:48 PM

Charlie Getalife

CWforFreedom on December 15, 2010 at 9:49 PM

Whatever. You know fully well what I meant and what I said. You’re playing the semantics game because you can’t counter argue the point.

I cant counter-argue your claim that China will be a greater military power than the USA? You’re asking me to provide counter-evidence for a premise that you yourself neglected to provide any supporting evidence.

Your “point” is a fear-based fantasy (which I too would not want to come to pass) and, currently, that’s all it is.

China is building its military for war. We’re building our military for political correctness. Who do you think will have a stronger military when all is said and done?

The USA. (Yeah, I said it – and I believe it too.) Should you actually believe that China’s war machine will be more powerful than the USA, I question if that’s really because of political correctness and the gays and not something more based in reality: money

But yeah, “crack pipe” – hoohohohoohohohhoohohhohoho BURN.

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:51 PM

It’s working is it? Israel won a 6 day war against Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967 and tripled its land size.

In 2006 it couldn’t even win a war against a rag tag group of Hezbollah in Lebanon and was humiliated in front of the world.

But yeah, gays in the military works like a charm.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:52 PM

That’s it. Ignore the salient points and concentrate on the joke. Typical of a liberal who has no facts to argue, just emotions.

hahahahahhahahah I’m a liberal. hahahahha

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:52 PM

I come back from church to discover a Jimbo attack and a Troll second shift on the Thread. In other words, nothing new.

kingsjester on December 15, 2010 at 9:52 PM

hahahahahhahahah I’m a liberal. hahahahha

ahahahhahaha crack pipe… dude, show that one to your kids. ahahahhaha my sides – they split

Whatever you are, you write like you’re 14.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:53 PM

But yeah, “crack pipe” – hoohohohoohohohhoohohhohoho BURN.

I take it back, 13.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:54 PM

Whatever you are, you write like you’re 14.

Whereas your stunning use of “crack pipe” ad hominem is the hallmark of a serious, mature mind.

Sense of humor – consider investing in one.

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:54 PM

Whatever you are, you write like you’re 14.

I take it back, 13.

First crack, then “liberal” then a teenager.

You’re really bad at this. Take a deep breath, admit to yourself that you overreacted in a momentary huff, and you’ll be back to your definition of normal in a couple minutes. =]

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:56 PM

First crack, then “liberal” then a teenager.

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 9:56 PM

So you’re admitting then that you’re a 14 year old liberal drug addict. Finally some truth out of you trolls.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:57 PM

I come back from church to discover a Jimbo attack and a Troll second shift on the Thread. In other words, nothing new.

kingsjester on December 15, 2010 at 9:52 PM

Attack? All I did was to post a Fox News poll that showed you were wrong and to ask why it’s apparently okay for a conservative here to call a general and soldier a liar but not okay for MoveOn.org to do the same thing.

Jimbo3 on December 15, 2010 at 10:02 PM

So you’re admitting then that you’re a 14 year old liberal drug addict. Finally some truth out of you trolls.

How odd, repeating your labels is an admission to them? And you have the hilarious gall to call me a troll?

Look, I realize you’re quite upset that I called you out on your fear-mongering, but that doesn’t make me A) addicted to crack; B) a liberal; C) a teenager; or D) a troll.

Jeddite on December 15, 2010 at 10:03 PM

The brass will not even think about looking into any cases where gays are targeting straights

And imagine what will happen when the brass are gay? You’re a private and you are called before the C.O. He thinks you’re cute, knows you are a christian and tells you he won’t tolerate anti homosexual attitudes in his company. But he thinks you’re cute and tells you so. Asks if you are seeing anyone. It’s just you and him alone in the office. You’re standing at attention. Oh, and by the way, his superior officer is also gay.

See, you think PC is tough in the private sector. Wait until it gets a hold of our military where soldiers are property. Imagine you are overseas. First time away from home. It is reported you told someone homosexuality is against the Bible. Now, see how the tables are turned? You are the one who is destroying unit cohesion. Not the homosexual. Now, people will wonder if you will let that gay buddy die in the field.In that one moment when your unit was under fire and that gay soldier died, did it happen because of the “anti gay bigotry?” Because you are a Christian who goes to church and reads your Bible openly, maybe you get accused of not reacting because you are opposed to homosexuality.. and if that is suspected and a soldier dies, what is the natural reaction going to be? Court Martial? Trial?

Openly Christian soldiers will now be targeted as trouble makers and a threat to unit cohesion.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:08 PM

So you’re admitting then that you’re a 14 year old liberal drug addict. Finally some truth out of you trolls.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:57 PM

A 14 year old liberal drug addict (not that you’d know one if you tripped over him or her) would make for a better poster.

Seriously, at this point we could replace you with a Magic 8-Ball and get more intelligent discussion and less fear-mongering bullcr@p.

Dark-Star on December 15, 2010 at 10:09 PM

t’s working is it? Israel won a 6 day war against Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967 and tripled its land size.

In 2006 it couldn’t even win a war against a rag tag group of Hezbollah in Lebanon and was humiliated in front of the world.

But yeah, gays in the military works like a charm.

angryed on December 15, 2010 at 9:52 PM

You’re not seriously blaming that on gays in the military. I use the term blame loosely, because Israel has an impossible task against Hezbollah no matter what the composition of their army. The perceived outcome of that skirmish was more determined by the dominance of anti-Israel sentiment on the world stage than any lack of Israeli military ability. Fact is, Israel continues, against all odds, to exist. That’s a testament to their uninterrupted military excellence.

There’s a larger issue than just the size and readiness of our military. Even if that were the only issue, the experiences of our many allies that allow gays to serve openly would indicate repealing DADT won’t affect readiness. Our military, being the largest and strongest in the world, is called on to oppose the worst elements of tyranny remaining. There may come a time when we cannot credibly defend liberty, and hope to enlist the necessary aid from the free world, at the same time our policies are more aligned with the forces we oppose. A generational shift has remade the way the free world views homosexuality. The United States, if it will remain the leader of that world, must recognize that shift.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:11 PM

There are a lot of countries on that list besides the Netherlands.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:46 PM

Could you answer the question? Why do you want us to borrow from the Dutch/European model as opposed to keeping the highly functional American one?

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 10:16 PM

Even if that were the only issue, the experiences of our many allies that allow gays to serve openly would indicate repealing DADT won’t affect readiness.

Same with allowing women in all combat roles.

ninjapirate on December 15, 2010 at 10:17 PM

Openly Christian soldiers will now be targeted as trouble makers and a threat to unit cohesion.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:08 PM

You can be brought up on charges as a civilian for anti-gay statements in a number of the European countries the resident libs want us to emulate.

Rather then far fetched, I suspect your scenario will play out within a few years of DADT’s repeal.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 10:21 PM

Even if that were the only issue, the experiences of our many allies that allow gays to serve openly would indicate repealing DADT won’t affect readiness.

Yeah, because we all know how great France’s and Germany and all these other nation’s armies are.
Funny, the one military that never allowed gays was the best of them all. That being us, of course.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:23 PM

Talked to a 13 year former enlisted and now CW2 pilot friend of mine this afternoon before I flew. He is turning down promotion to CW3, turning down the Blackhawk M Model transition and he and his wife are going to leave the Army because of their belief that repeal of DADT is all but inevitable. She has just under 10 years enlisted time.

He is a combat vet of OEF 7 and OEF 10/11. He is an Air Medal with “V” device recipient. She is a medic who was wounded and received the Purple Heart near Baghdad treating wounded after an IED explosion in OIF. A secondary explosion or mortar lodged a piece of shrapnel in her wrist.

It’s a good thing the openly serving gays will not be troubled by these unpatriotic bigots.

(These people are friends of mine)

It begins.

hawkdriver on December 15, 2010 at 10:24 PM

Even if that were the only issue, the experiences of our many allies that allow gays to serve openly would indicate repealing DADT won’t affect readiness.

And what wars have gay friendly countries won, primarily on their own, since removing any restrictions?

Either way, this statement is frankly insane. You are arguing that dramatically reshaping the military won’t have a significant negative effect. You certainly aren’t making the argument for how reshaping our military in such a fashion would improve its efficiency. As I mentioned above, why not neon fatigues while we are at it?

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 10:25 PM

Funny, the one military that never allowed gays was the best of them all. That being us, of course.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:23 PM

Come on, we need a couple hundred more PFC Manning’s then we do tens of thousands of battle hardened veterans.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 10:27 PM

Rather then far fetched, I suspect your scenario will play out within a few years of DADT’s repeal.

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 10:21 PM

Yeah, isn’t it weird how the further we get from things like the Bible, morality, our basic freedoms that the weaker and sicker this nation becomes? In the last 30-50 years we have seen the greatest wins by the liberal/atheistic/PC crowd while at the same time we’ve seen an increase in things like divorces, poverty, suicide, disease, terrorist attacks, national debt, etc.

We laugh and mock morality honor and yet are appalled and surprised by our corruption and decline. See, Democrats are what they are, but the RINO’s make me especially nauseous. They want the perks of a moral society (better economy, low taxes, less crime, etc) but without the morality.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:32 PM

They want the perks of a moral society (better economy, low taxes, less crime, etc) but without the morality.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:32 PM

Well said.

kingsjester on December 15, 2010 at 10:34 PM

Yeah, because we all know how great France’s and Germany and all these other nation’s armies are.
Funny, the one military that never allowed gays was the best of them all. That being us, of course.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:23 PM

Actually, we’ve been allowing gays since 1993. More to the point, we’ll have the most powerful military regardless of whether we repeal DADT. I’m not going to argue that repeal will make things better, just that it doesn’t make things worse.

Look at both lists. We’ve been the world’s only superpower since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, so it’s a little disingenuous to have a laugh at what a bunch of 90-pound weaklings our allies in the democratic world are. And the armies of luminaries like Cuba, Iran, and North Korea don’t compare any more favorably, anyway.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:34 PM

Good night all. I am done with this conversation for now.
I’ve had a long work day today and I am just over this for now. Wish I could stick around but I have bills to pay.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:35 PM

I read in an earlier post that you’re retiring, hawkdriver. Congrats, and much envy. I have just under 2 years left.

Isn’t it nice that gay soldiers will get to talk about their sex lives in public now? What a nice, big fat F*CK OFF to our combat troops.

CantCureStupid on December 15, 2010 at 10:35 PM

I’m not going to argue that repeal will make things better, just that it doesn’t make things worse.

I mean readiness. Obviously it’s always better to do the right thing.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:36 PM

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:32 PM

+∞

The inverse relationship between self-restraint and slavery is not lost on this one.

Inanemergencydial on December 15, 2010 at 10:37 PM

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:32 PM

I read all of your and 18-1 posts on this thread. Well reasoned and polite debate. Sorry the repeal proponents are not “as” polite. You’re right about this all.

I was amazed though that Zekecorian on a thread earlier today did admit that he thought David Epstein boinking his daughter was wrong and a perverse sexual act. They must have their limits. Those limits will not be preventing bisexual or trangender from riding their coat tails though in this repeal of DADT.

hawkdriver on December 15, 2010 at 10:37 PM

And what wars have gay friendly countries won, primarily on their own, since removing any restrictions?

What wars have they lost? And how about the countries on the other side of the ledger? Even knowing that, it doesn’t answer the question of whether allowing gays to serve openly has specifically affected the readiness of any country’s military in those wars. Do you have any idea how many factors contribute to the outcome of a war? You’re not asking the right questions.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:43 PM

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:34 PM

My last comment, for me, it’s not the gays of themselves. I personally don’t care whether someone is gay or not. I honestly do not care, in a personal sense (in a moral sense I do) but personally, I do not care if you are gay or not. I believe in freedom. You want to be gay, go for it. Whatever. But as for the military, it is about all the PC crap that will have to enforce this. They will not just allow gays to openly serve, they are going to require sensitivity trainings, new policies on punishments, and of course, forcing straights to shower and bunk with homosexuals. That just is not right any more than forcing women to shower with men.
So, it’s not about just allowing gays to serve, it’s all the PC garbage that is going to accompany this crap. Homosexuals will be the new victim class. Christians and conservatives in the military will now be the trouble makers and the ones to watch.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:43 PM

I go to MEPS on Friday. I weep knowing that I maybe showering with a guy who gets off watching me.

I also weep knowing that we are normalizing the most abnormal of behavior.

Rationally and Theologically nothing good can come from putting gays in the military.

Tim Burton on December 15, 2010 at 10:44 PM

Australia (since 1992)
Israel (since 1993)
Russia (since 2003)
United Kingdom (since 2000)
And don’t forget Poland.
RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 9:29 PM

A list of countries these people call on for help when the $hit hits the fan:

United States of America.

BigWyo on December 15, 2010 at 10:44 PM

hawkdriver on December 15, 2010 at 10:37 PM

Thank you Hawk. If you’re in town again we’ll have to go to Starbucks. I’m working like 6 days a week now though. But if you swing though, give me a call.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:45 PM

A list of countries these people call on for help when the $hit hits the fan:

United States of America.

BigWyo on December 15, 2010 at 10:44 PM

In fairness, we’ve called on a few of those countries ourselves. I think it’s pretty disrespectful to strut around the graves of some of our allies in Afghanistan and Iraq.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:53 PM

Maybe we should give them pink uniforms while we’re at it. That’ll REALLY scare our enemies.

Seriously, this promises to be just a huge distraction/headache for our military… something they DON’T need right now.

ErinF on December 15, 2010 at 10:55 PM

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:45 PM

JT you got it. I’ll be up when my NETT here is done. I’ll be off for about a month before I go to Ft. Campbell. In the mean time, you let me know when “My Dearest Sarah” is in print. I’ll buy two right off of the bat.

hawkdriver on December 15, 2010 at 10:57 PM

What wars have they lost?
RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 10:43 PM

So the answer to the question of what wars have these gay friendly militaries won, as we both know, is none.

So again to the point, why do you want to change so much from the American model to the Dutch model?

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 11:07 PM

They want the perks of a moral society (better economy, low taxes, less crime, etc) but without the morality.

JellyToast on December 15, 2010 at 10:32 PM

You should be writing speeches. :)

18-1 on December 15, 2010 at 11:09 PM

So the answer to the question of what wars have these gay friendly militaries won, as we both know, is none.

No, I don’t know that. I didn’t just look up all the wars that like 20 countries have been in since the early ’90s or so. My point remains, you’re too analytically incompetent to maintain a rational discussion, so go away.

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 11:21 PM

@hawkdriver hiya hey quick question on Oct 13 you said you had 50 days left but your still serving? did you re-enlist?
Here is the link to your question earlier

@jellytoast describe a moral society please

Zekecorlain on December 15, 2010 at 11:30 PM

RightOFLeft on December 15, 2010 at 11:21 PM

Will you – in the certain event that at least 5%, perhaps closer to 20%, of current service members resigning or not reenlisting, as well as a serious drop in new enlistments – support a new draft?

Rebar on December 15, 2010 at 11:32 PM

@rebar as I have said before saying that something will happen without proof is not really the same as it actually happening. since all evidence points to the contrary do you have any rational basis for your beliefs?

Zekecorlain on December 15, 2010 at 11:35 PM

Someone has a crush on Hawkdriver.

Inanemergencydial on December 15, 2010 at 11:39 PM

@Inanemergencydial he’s way older than my normal type plus he’s married and straight so no, not really but I do like him as a commentator

Zekecorlain on December 15, 2010 at 11:41 PM

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