Breyer: Madison wrote 2nd Amendment to appease the states

posted at 10:12 am on December 13, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

It’s not just the Constitution that is a “living document,” as Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer proved yesterday when discussing the Second Amendment.  Breyer argued that James Madison only included the right to bear arms reluctantly, and only because the states wouldn’t sign the Constitution for fear of creating an overmighty central government.  That’s why he voted against the majority in the Heller decision that overturned the federal handgun ban in Washington DC:

Appearing on “Fox News Sunday,” Breyer said history stands with the dissenters in the court’s decision to overturn a Washington, D.C., handgun ban in the 2008 case “D.C. v. Heller.”

Breyer wrote the dissent and was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. He said historians would side with him in the case because they have concluded that Founding Father James Madison was more worried that the Constitution may not be ratified than he was about granting individuals the right to bear arms.

Madison “was worried about opponents who would think Congress would call up state militias and nationalize them. ‘That can’t happen,’ said Madison,” said Breyer, adding that historians characterize Madison’s priority as, “I’ve got to get this document ratified.”

Therefore, Madison included the Second Amendment to appease the states, Breyer said.

“If you’re interested in history, and in this one history was important, then I think you do have to pay attention to the story,” Breyer said. “If that was his motive historically, the dissenters were right. And I think more of the historians were with us.”

That’s a mighty big if, and it depends on ignoring the entire context of colonial life.  The founders didn’t envision government on any level being able to utterly secure public safety, not even in the cities.  Families needed guns for self-defense, and not just on the frontier from animals and hostile Native Americans and French and Spanish explorers, either.  Then, as now, if families waited for the local constabulary to protect them from thieves and marauders, they’d find themselves either dead or homeless in short order.

Madison also considered the right to bear arms an important check on federal power, too, and didn’t reluctantly come to that position to appease the states into signing the Constitution.  All Breyer needed to do to discover this was actually read Madison on the subject in Federalist 46, where Madison makes clear the role of states and men at arms in keeping the central government from overwhelming their sovereignty, emphases mine:

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.

The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people.

On summing up the considerations stated in this and the last paper, they seem to amount to the most convincing evidence, that the powers proposed to be lodged in the federal government are as little formidable to those reserved to the individual States, as they are indispensably necessary to accomplish the purposes of the Union; and that all those alarms which have been sounded, of a meditated and consequential annihilation of the State governments, must, on the most favorable interpretation, be ascribed to the chimerical fears of the authors of them.

That doesn’t sound at all like a man who had to reluctantly guarantee that Americans would have those arms at hand in the extremity of need.  Indeed, Madison makes his case poetically clear that the individual liberties the Constitution guaranteed against federal incursion were in fact guaranteed by the Second Amendment.  Breyer’s argument is fanciful at best, and self-serving to an inordinate degree.

Update: The American Pundit adds an important argument — so what?

But there’s another point here: Who cares what Madison’s intent was? Who cares why the Second Amendment was added? Who cares what the motivation for its inclusion was? It’s there.

Is Breyer now saying that judges, including the Supreme Court, can ignore rights specifically guaranteed in the Constitution based upon the motivation for their inclusion? That judges can decide explicit rights don’t exist because they weren’t included in good faith? Wow.

To say that’s a dangerous precedent is probably the biggest understatement on this blog. That would mean a judge could decide you no longer have the right to free speech or freedom of the press because, hey, those rights were only included to appease one group needed for ratification.

There is a difference between treating a constitution of any form as a philosophical statement and as a legal document.  The former is open for interpretation, while the latter should be used textually in order to make compliance and enforcement plain.  We have always considered the Constitution to be the foundational legal document of the United States, and that’s how the court should use it as well.  The Second Amendment, and everything else that’s in the Constitution, should be assumed to mean what it says, and if Congress and the states find that problematic, then they can amend it through the processes the Constitution prescribes for that purpose.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 3 4 5 6 7 8

That’s a pretty serious charge.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:19 PM

I think what Jen means is that a Mormon is not a Christian (in her definition), therefore a Mormon claiming to be a Christian is a liar (by her definition).

I could be wrong, but I’m sure she’ll clarify, so no harm in speculating.

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 1:24 PM

The smartest person I know never even went to college.

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 1:20 PM

I wouldn’t doubt it.
And haven’t I stressed how much I learned since university and graduate school and how much anyone can?
It was merely a quick reply to a troll.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:28 PM

He’s lying about being a Christian…and it goes downhill from there.
And should I buy a year’s worth of food from foodinsurance.com because the economy’s going to completely collapse immenently, as Glenn says?

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:16 PM

Bigot. Your Morman hate is beginning to become tedious. BTW, you don’t get to decide who’s a Christian and who’s not. I think Beck is all schtick, but whether he’s a Christian or not is between Glenn and his god. Good Lord you’re an arrogant ass.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 1:28 PM

That’s a pretty serious charge.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:19 PM

Not really.
Research it.
Mormons don’t believe in Christ the way Christians believe in Christ.
Or God.
Or really anything else.
They’ve constructed their own belief system on the mere names of the Christian and Jewish faiths.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:30 PM

What Justice Breyer conveniently omits from this nonsense is that James Madison did not think the Bill of Rights was necessary because no one would ever be stupid enough to think that government had any authority beyond that specified in the Constitution and people didn’t need a Constitutional amendment to guarantee them a right everyone knew they had.

Stephen L. Hall on December 13, 2010 at 1:31 PM

I think what Jen means is that a Mormon is not a Christian (in her definition), therefore a Mormon claiming to be a Christian is a liar (by her definition).

I could be wrong, but I’m sure she’ll clarify, so no harm in speculating.

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 1:24 PM

I’m sure that is what she means, but she’s claiming that he’s lying about it, which implies that he’s being intentionally deceitful. If that’s not what she means, she should clarify and has every opportunity to do so.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:31 PM

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:30 PM

What does any of that have to do with Beck being intentionally deceitful?

And why did you listen to him for five years if you despise him?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:33 PM

Bigot. Your Morman hate is beginning to become tedious.

Your non-logic has already become tedious, you blithering idiot. You’re making Jenfidel look like Albert Einstein at this point.

Good Lord you’re I’m a arrogant dumbass.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 1:28 PM

Fixed.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:34 PM

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:34 PM

Not your best stuff champ. C’mon, you can do better than that.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 1:37 PM

she’s claiming that he’s lying about it, which implies that he’s being intentionally deceitful.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:31 PM

Indeed.
In fact, all Mormons perpetrate this deceit to those outside of the LDS church.

And why did you listen to him for five years if you despise him?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:33 PM

Until I did some extensive research recently, I didn’t realize what his agenda really was.
And I thought he was funny and he had the right views about some things.
Now, if I can stand it, I’ll listen to him because I think he’s dangerous and because what he does and says is most often laid at the feet of “Republicans, “conservatives”, “the Tea Party,” etc.
He’s definitely a demagogue with many followers.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM

Not your best stuff champ. C’mon, you can do better than that.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 1:37 PM

You don’t need a .50 rifle to take down a squirrel.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM

Breyer argued that James Madison only included the right to bear arms reluctantly, and only because the states wouldn’t sign the Constitution for fear of creating an overmighty central government.

So James Madison is supreme and if he didn’t like it, it shouldn’t stand even thought it’s written into law?

Breyer is an example of everthing wrong in the judicial system.

RJL on December 13, 2010 at 1:42 PM

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM

So your evidence for your charge is that he’s Mormon and they all intentionally practice deceit about that stuff?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:43 PM

It may be time for a Constitutional Convention. People like Justice Breyer are just scary. Ironically, not only is he serious, but there are others willing to circumvent the Constitution and go along with him. I’ll be both of Obama’s appointee’s are right there with him on this. Let’s pray none of the conservative justices gets sick before the election.

bflat879 on December 13, 2010 at 1:43 PM

You don’t need a .50 rifle to take down a squirrel.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM

Redneck rabid gun-nut.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 1:44 PM

You don’t need a .50 rifle to take down a squirrel.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM

Oh snap! Do you write your own stuff sport?

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:33 PM

Google “Mormon White Horse Prophecy” and the “Mormon Oath of Vengeance” then find the 2008 conversation Beck had with Sen. Orrin Hatch (also Mormon) on the radio in which they both use these code words: “…the Constitution is hanging by a thread…”

I’m no big fan of the Washington Post’s Dana Milbank, but he’s written a whole chapter in his latest book about Beck concerning this very subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM

This penumbra of the framer’s intent Bravo Sierra is how we got stupid rulings like Roe v. Wade What of “shall not be infringed” do guys (and gals) like Breyer not understand? to quote someone who’s name escapes me, “I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy”

Mini-14 on December 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM

So your evidence for your charge is that he’s Mormon and they all intentionally practice deceit about that stuff?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:43 PM

I’ve heard similarly accurate accusations about Islam.

Is it really so surprising that a cult started by a polygamous scammer attracts screwballs and liars?

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:46 PM

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM

Are you a Christian Jenfidel?

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 1:47 PM

I’m no big fan of the Washington Post’s Dana Milbank, but he’s written a whole chapter in his latest book about Beck concerning this very subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM

So you don’t normally trust him, but concerning Beck, because Beck is a Mormon, you do?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:47 PM

I’ve heard similarly accurate accusations about Islam.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:46 PM

Not from me.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:49 PM

Not from me.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 1:49 PM

No indeed.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:52 PM

in which they both use these code words: “…the Constitution is hanging by a thread…”

Yeah. Because only Mormons say such things.

I’m no big fan of the Washington Post’s Dana Milbank, but he’s written a whole chapter in his latest book about Beck concerning this very subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM

Brilliant source, babe. Who’s next? E.J. Dionne? Richard Cohen?

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 1:56 PM

The Second Amendment IS absolute

Sorry, I completely disagree: none of our rights are absolute. We’ve created limits on the exercise of all of them.

You’re welcome as well.

SteveMG on December 13, 2010 at 1:57 PM

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 1:56 PM

Mormons are EEEEEE-vil, didn’t you know that?

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:06 PM

Yeah. Because only Mormons say such things.

This particular wording is code to them. They know what it means.
Look up “Mormon White Horse Prophecy.”
It goes back to the sect’s foundings and Joseph Smith.

Brilliant source, babe. Who’s next? E.J. Dionne? Richard Cohen?

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 1:56 PM

I didn’t put it as a “source,” merely a resource.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:12 PM

Mormons are EEEEEE-vil, didn’t you know that?

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:06 PM

In actual fact, they are.
They believe that God was/is a man and that they and all men can become gods and that salvation is by works.
But laugh it off if you want to or are you Mormon, too?

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

Assuming Breyer’s (concocted and pretextual) view to be perfectly accurate, I don’t see what significance it would have. If I could scientifically prove that all the founding fathers only supported the 4th Amendment because they wanted to hide the fact that they were drinking too much whisky, would that mean that whisky should be illegal, or that the 4th Amendment should only apply to alcoholic beverages? Seriously, who cares what thoughts they had in their minds at the time?

The fact is that the 2d Amendment is in the Constitution– and it doesn’t grant us a right to have arms, it secures our pre-existing right to bear arms. There is a difference. The founding fathers certainly understood that– I wonder why Breyer doesn’t.

morganfrost on December 13, 2010 at 2:20 PM

In actual fact, they are.
They believe that God was/is a man and that they and all men can become gods and that salvation is by works.
But laugh it off if you want to or are you Mormon, too?

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

The vast majority of Mormans with whom I’m acquainted are generous, warm folks who would give you the shirt off your back if asked (or not). Very, very far from “evil”. Your ilk is way closer to “evil” than any Morman I know. To what Christian sect do you belong hypocrite?

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:21 PM

I didn’t put it as a “source,” merely a resource.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:12 PM

*facepalm*

In actual fact, they are.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

You’ve said I was, too.

*doublefacepalm*

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 2:23 PM

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:21 PM

You started off accusing me of being stupid, but yet you can’t spell a 2 syllable, common name like “Mormon” correctly.
Hmmm.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:27 PM

In actual fact, they are.
They believe that God was/is a man and that they and all men can become gods and that salvation is by works.
But laugh it off if you want to or are you Mormon, too?

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

In Buddhism we believe all creatures can eventually be enlightened and become buddhas.

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 2:30 PM

The Second Amendment IS absolute

Sorry, I completely disagree: none of our rights are absolute. We’ve created limits on the exercise of all of them.

You’re welcome as well.

SteveMG on December 13, 2010 at 1:57 PM

I, myself, could quote many examples of where all our rights have had limits placed upon them. Some limits are legitimate, some are not, but it can be shown where the legitimate limits are allowed. No such limits are allowed upon the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I’ve shown where and how the Second Amendment is absolute. You haven’t shown where the Second Amendment can be limited. You made the calim, therefore I’d like to see your proof.

Woody

woodcdi on December 13, 2010 at 2:31 PM

The vast majority of Mormans with whom I’m acquainted are generous, warm folks who would give you the shirt off your back if asked (or not). Very, very far from “evil”.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:21 PM

This is my experience as well.

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 2:32 PM

In Buddhism we believe…

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Uh oh. You’re eeevil, too.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 2:33 PM

You started off accusing me of being stupid, but yet you can’t spell a 2 syllable, common name like “Mormon” correctly.
Hmmm.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:27 PM

Typo dipshit. Mormon. Mormon. Mormon.

Again, I ask: to what Christian sect do you belong?

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:34 PM

2nd protects us from federal disarmament, the 14th extends that protection to the state. The immunities and protection clause is also part of the constitution.

Prior to the 14th I also believe the states had the ability to regulate firearm possession.

jhffmn on December 13, 2010 at 2:37 PM

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

No, I’m not Mormon, and I know what they believe. They aren’t evil people, any more than an athiest is an evil person. You constantly paint with too broad a brush and continually reveal your bigotries.

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:39 PM

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:21 PM
DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 2:32 PM

The Mormons I know have some of the best family values I’ve seen in anyone. And I’ve never felt pressured by them to visit their church. When I tell them I have a church that I am happy with, we have a pleasant conversation and then they’re off. They are always respectful and pleasant.

Not like some of those other people that come knocking on the door…

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:42 PM

It is truly scary that sanctimonious snobs who think nothing of re-writing history per their agenda are even on the Federal bench at all, much less the Supreme Court! In the Heller decision Justice Scalia brilliantly destroys Breyer’s anti-gun dissenting argument in a legally and historically airtight majority opinion. Only an arrogant ideologue like Breyer would stick to his guns (no pun intended) after being dismantled like that. These leftists have no honor, no shame, and no moral integrity.

infidel4life on December 13, 2010 at 2:46 PM

blink on December 13, 2010 at 2:46 PM

I believe he was addressing her personality, then inquired about her religion. Different categories of “ilk”.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 2:47 PM

Sorry, that was Stevens’ dissenting argument, joined by Breyer and others.

infidel4life on December 13, 2010 at 2:49 PM

Did I miss the comment in which Jenfidel claimed that Mormons are evil? I thought she merely claimed that they weren’t real Christians.

blink on December 13, 2010 at 2:48 PM

Mormons are EEEEEE-vil, didn’t you know that?

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:06 PM

In actual fact, they are.
They believe that God was/is a man and that they and all men can become gods and that salvation is by works.
But laugh it off if you want to or are you Mormon, too?

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 2:50 PM

I believe he was addressing her personality, then inquired about her religion. Different categories of “ilk”.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 2:47 PM

Exactly.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:53 PM

In Buddhism we believe…

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Uh oh. You’re eeevil, too.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 2:33 PM

I go outside to rake a couple of leaves come back, and everyone is taking my name in Vain ;)

You don’t need a .50 rifle to take down a squirrel.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 1:41 PM

Redneck rabid gun-nut.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Heh

Dr Evil on December 13, 2010 at 2:53 PM

You constantly paint with too broad a brush and continually reveal your bigotries.

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:39 PM

Look up “Mormon White Horse Prophecy.”
I tend to look with “bigotry” on those who want to take over my country “when the Constitution is hanging by a thread” and will then set up a Mormon theocracy (with perhaps Mitt Romney as both the President of the country and the church at the same time) that is run on the principles of Communism.
You really should do some research before you make up your mind so quickly about a subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:59 PM

Breyer is a jackass!

MCGIRV on December 13, 2010 at 3:00 PM

To what Christian sect do you belong hypocrite?

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:21 PM

well well if itsn’t the holier-than-thou hypocrite calling others names again.

still bowing down at the altar of your racist god darwin?

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:01 PM

ook up “Mormon White Horse Prophecy.”
I tend to look with “bigotry” on those who want to take over my country “when the Constitution is hanging by a thread” and will then set up a Mormon theocracy (with perhaps Mitt Romney as both the President of the country and the church at the same time) that is run on the principles of Communism.
You really should do some research before you make up your mind so quickly about a subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:59 PM

Cue Twilight Zone music somebody.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:03 PM

Typo dipshit. Mormon. Mormon. Mormon.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 2:34 PM

oh wow how Christ-like of you…I can see how you can be the first to throw rocks….

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:03 PM

well well if itsn’t the holier-than-thou hypocrite calling others names again.

still bowing down at the altar of your racist god darwin?

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:01 PM

No, but I’m still praying for your tortured soul r4l.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:04 PM

Redneck rabid gun-nut.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Just speaking your ‘language’.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:05 PM

No, but I’m still praying for your tortured soul r4l.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:04 PM

again, what dark and bloodthirsty god do you pray to

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:05 PM

dakine, right4life, I think you should both be praying for each other…and seeking out a competent psychiatrist.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:06 PM

Did I miss the comment in which Jenfidel claimed that Mormons are evil? I thought she merely claimed that they weren’t real Christians.

blink on December 13, 2010 at 2:48 PM

Open your eyes, blinky!

Mormons are EEEEEE-vil, didn’t you know that?

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:06 PM

In actual fact, they are.
Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:16 PM

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:06 PM

dakine, right4life, I think you should both be praying for each other…and seeking out a competent psychiatrist.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:06 PM

I don’t want him to pray for me…I’m afraid it might involve some sort of child sacrifice….

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:07 PM

Cue Twilight Zone music somebody.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:03 PM

I could say the exact same thing about the right-wingers running about screaming “the Islamists are coming! the Islamists are coming!”

This actually has some truth to it because the Mormons are already here, not in some far-off desert.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:08 PM

I could say the exact same thing about the right-wingers running about screaming “the Islamists are coming! the Islamists are coming!”

if you haven’t noticed they are…and they have been since about 600 AD…..ever hear of the battle of tours? the gates of vienna?

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:09 PM

You constantly paint with too broad a brush and continually reveal your bigotries.

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 2:39 PM

I tend to look with “bigotry” on those who want to take over my country “when the Constitution is hanging by a thread” and will then set up a Mormon theocracy (with perhaps Mitt Romney as both the President of the country and the church at the same time) that is run on the principles of Communism.
You really should do some research before you make up your mind so quickly about a subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:59 PM

You are a bigot to more than Mormons.

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:09 PM

I don’t want him to pray for me…I’m afraid it might involve some sort of child sacrifice….

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:07 PM

I haven’t heard such insane babblings since some KKK wannabe was trying to convince me that Jews are vampires.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:10 PM

In Buddhism we believe all creatures can eventually be enlightened and become buddhas.

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 2:30 PM

In Christianity, we’re taught something similar, that we can all be children of God and that through God, we can do all that Jesus did and far more.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:11 PM

gain, what dark and bloodthirsty god do you pray to

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:05 PM

Holy shite, the amazing irony in this statement.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:12 PM

You really should do some research before you make up your mind so quickly about a subject.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 2:59 PM

Okay, I read your stupid information. Why would you be afraid of a Mormon “prophecy” if you think their beliefs are wrong?

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:12 PM

I think what Jen means is that a Mormon is not a Christian (in her definition), therefore a Mormon claiming to be a Christian is a liar (by her definition).

I could be wrong, but I’m sure she’ll clarify, so no harm in speculating.

DarkCurrent on December 13, 2010 at 1:24 PM

I didn’t read this thread. Saw your comment at the top of the comments tab.
I believe you are correct.
That would make sense regarding her past responses to me saying I am a Christian.
Since I consider myself LDS, she seems to consider me some sort of Christian heretic AKA non-Christian.
I’ve gotten this response from people before.
I know what I am & what I believe & it is btw God & I.
Religious nut-bag trolls here on HA have no bearing on what I consider myself.
And I certainly have no right to judge whether someone is ‘Christian’ or not.
None of us have the right to judge the faithful religious content of a person’s being.
These kinds of people make me sick.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

So Breyer supports a ouija board interpretation of the Constitution. What’s next? The seance is now in session?

chickasaw42 on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

In Christianity, we’re taught something similar, that we can all be children of God and that through God, we can do all that Jesus did and far more.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:11 PM

Pretty sure that r4l, Jenfidel and the rest of their ilk don’t think this way.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Breyer is a jackass!

MCGIRV on December 13, 2010 at 3:00 PM

I agree but i don’t believe that’s the Legal Description GRIN.

He is legalous incompetentous.

Dr Evil on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

well well if itsn’t the holier-than-thou hypocrite calling others names again.

right4life on December 13, 2010 at 3:01 PM

Seriously, right. You don’t have a platform to rail on him for this.

I could say the exact same thing about the right-wingers running about screaming “the Islamists are coming! the Islamists are coming!”

This actually has some truth to it because the Mormons are already here, not in some far-off desert.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:08 PM

Except no one’s claiming Mormons want to kill us. Which isn’t to say either generalization is appropriate when used so broadly.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:15 PM

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

There’s been an update since that one. She also considers you evil and intentionally deceptive.

Pretty sure that r4l, Jenfidel and the rest of their ilk don’t think this way.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

I honestly don’t know how they think.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:16 PM

These kinds of people make me sick.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Exactly. Jenfidel represents the worst kind of “Christian”.

dakine on December 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM

Madison was in favor of seizing private property for commercial development too. Betcha didn’t know that, either!

/Breyer

NoLeftTurn on December 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM

Except no one’s claiming Mormons want to kill us. Which isn’t to say either generalization is appropriate when used so broadly.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:15 PM

Very true.

Dark-Star on December 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM

None of us have the right to judge the faithful religious content of a person’s being.
These kinds of people make me sick.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Agreed.

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:20 PM

None of us have the right to judge the faithful religious content of a person’s being.
These kinds of people make me sick.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Yep.

MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 3:23 PM

He doesn’t have a Mormon agenda.

Jenfidel on December 13, 2010 at 1:17 PM

Ahhh. There it is.

certification does not indicate intelligence.
MadisonConservative on December 13, 2010 at 12:59 PM

Perhaps we are certified in religious bigotry.

I personally only have a measley BS in geology & 2ndary Science Education.
My suptd. at the school has a Masters in Ed. And he is an extremely stupid man.
My hydrogeology professor couldn’t find his a$$ in the dark with both hands.
All he knew was hydrogeology.
I have students in HS who are smarted than many with PhDs.
My husband has nothing but a HS diploma & a 2 week vet training course & he is smarter than most everyone here on HA.
How many have the mechanical smarts to build a tractor from scratch? My husband’s father could do that & he only finished up to the 8th grade.
Degrees & academic learning mean NOTHING in the end.
Anyone can get a degree.
Not everyone is able to use it effectively.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:23 PM

My husband has nothing but a HS diploma & a 2 week vet training course & he is smarter than most everyone here on HA.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:23 PM

How dare you!/

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:32 PM

She also considers you evil and intentionally deceptive.
Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:16 PM

Yeah. I’ve heard that before from her.

Now since I’m a convert to the LDS faith, I may be missing the call to setting up the Mormon theocracy of America.
To be honest, I don’t remember anything in church anyone ever said over the many states & wards I’ve been to that asks us to overthrow the current govt & set up theocracies.
Could someone please direct me to where it says that in the Book of Mormon or Pearl of Great Price?
I surely missed it.
I guess some believe Mitt Romney is here to do that?
Oh that’s rich! LOL!
And Jenfidel, I respect your right to have your own opinion, even if it is vile & bigoted, like many trolls on here spew.
I have said my opinion on islam.
Of course, I have met muslims before & do not tell them what I am thinking of their religion.
I personally find it rude, unless they ask me, of course.
‘Course they have taquiyya. And that is what they are told to do with infidels-lie to them.
I assure you that Mormons do not practice any religiou form of taquiyya.
But evidently you think so.
Whatever.
You are in my prayers.
Ooops.
Can I do that if I’m not a Christian?
Damn-these rules are so hard to keep straight!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:32 PM

How dare you!/

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:32 PM

LOL!
IMHO He is also hotter than anyone here on HA.
My FB lady-friends can attest to that!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:33 PM

LOL!
IMHO He is also hotter than anyone here on HA.
My FB lady-friends can attest to that!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:33 PM

It’s beautiful that you appreciate who you’re spending your life with so much.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:37 PM

My FB lady-friends can attest to that!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:33 PM

Check your FB messages!

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:38 PM

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:37 PM

Thank you.
My husband is my best friend. I adore him.
He’s also my biggest pain in the rear, as I am to him.
10 yrs & counting.
I wish all this kind of happiness.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:39 PM

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:38 PM

Hee hee! When i get home & am done feeding cows I will.
One of my kids saw a comment Meaty McButcher left on a photo a while back of my hubby there.
She was freaking out at 1st bcs she thought it was a guy! LOL!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:41 PM

She was freaking out at 1st bcs she thought it was a guy! LOL!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:41 PM

Heh!

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:43 PM

Check your FB messages!

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:38 PM

You’re FB friends? Should I know this? I’m pretty much just a smart phone FB user these days, so sorry for being so absent, but it doesn’t handle messages well.

Thank you.
My husband is my best friend. I adore him.
He’s also my biggest pain in the rear, as I am to him.
10 yrs & counting.
I wish all this kind of happiness.

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:39 PM

That’s perfect. Biggest pain and biggest supporter. :)

I have a similar dynamic in my marriage. We pretty much argued our way into falling in love with each other. I don’t recommend it, but it worked for us.

10 years really is something special. Congrats.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:45 PM

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:45 PM

Check your message for today! :D

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:48 PM

He is also hotter than anyone here on HA.
My FB lady-friends can attest to that!

Badger40 on December 13, 2010 at 3:33 PM

Almost true from what I’ve heard!

AsianGirlInTights on December 13, 2010 at 3:52 PM

I think Breyer is a liar. I find it inconceivable that anyone thought about banning guns at that time. It’s possible he didn’t want the right codified, but I’d love to see the proof.

Secondly, the first gun control law wasn’t written in Great Britain until 1903, which would indicate to me, at least, that it wasn’t on the top of anyones list in 1783.

bflat879 on December 13, 2010 at 3:52 PM

Check your message for today! :D

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:48 PM

Will do. Probably a little later tonight, but I’ll make it a point to do that.

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:53 PM

Almost true from what I’ve heard!

AsianGirlInTights on December 13, 2010 at 3:52 PM

You have someone to nominate?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:55 PM

You have someone to nominate?

Esthier on December 13, 2010 at 3:55 PM

Just spewed Diet Coke on my laptop!

ladyingray on December 13, 2010 at 3:57 PM

So, basically, what Breyer believes the founders were thinking is more important than what they actually codified.

Vashta.Nerada on December 13, 2010 at 10:39 AM

And, note especially, Breyer’s cool assumption that he *knows* what Madison was “thinking”: a SC justice who reads minds, even of the deceased who long ago lost theirs.

Lourdes on December 13, 2010 at 3:58 PM

Comment pages: 1 3 4 5 6 7 8