Four year old met his mother’s miscarried child in Heaven

posted at 8:45 am on November 19, 2010 by The Right Scoop

Well he’s 7 years old now and it took a couple of years for his parents to really understand what happened, but when Colton Burpo was four years he was having surgery in the hospital for a burst appendix. While he was in surgery he apparently had some sort of out of body experience and could see what his parents were doing. He witnessed that his dad was praying and his mom on her cellphone. Both parents say they have no clue how he knew that, but that it’s absolutely true. And the story just gets more interesting from there.

Apparently during the same surgery Colton went to Heaven where he recounts how he met his grandfather who he had never known, who he later recognized in photos. The interesting thing is that he didn’t recognize photos of his grandfather as an old man with glasses, which is how everyone knew him, but rather as a young man. Colton’s father literally had go find a photo of ‘Pop’ as a young man before Colton was able to recognize him. Now that’s pretty wild.

But I must say what really surprised me was that Colton’s father recounts how Colton, still 4 years old, told his mother “you had a baby die in your tummy didn’t you”, which completely shocked them both because they had never told him about their miscarriage. They asked him how he knew and he said that he met his sister in Heaven and she told him what happened.

Dude.

Now while I know this story is quite uncommon, I must say that I have no reason to disbelieve what they are saying, and in fact it seems to corroborate what I already believe to be true as a Christian. I’m sure there are some of you who will be naysayers, but to me this is pretty amazing and rather difficult to simply reject out of hand. Watch the interview below to hear more about this story:

Cross Posted at www.therightscoop.com

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Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:15 PM

It’s okay Dave. We’ve all been hurt badly at one time or another in our lives. I just decided it was easier to live in God’s love and be healed, than it was to carry that pain around with me like Jacob Marley’s chains.
God loves you and offers you the same peace.
When you are ready, God will be there for you.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:18 PM

Maybe one day you’ll understand how arrogant you are.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:15 PM

It is obvious to anyone who has studied psych 101 that you suffer from projection. Your heart is in a dark place, you must let the light in and the darkness out.

tessa on November 19, 2010 at 2:19 PM

It’s okay Dave. We’ve all been hurt badly at one time or another in our lives. I just decided it was easier to live in God’s love and be healed, than it was to carry that pain around with me like Jacob Marley’s chains.
God loves you and offers you the same peace.
When you are ready, God will be there for you.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:18 PM
—-
And you wonder why Christians are disliked.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM

People dislike those whom they fear, or those whom they don’t trust.
You are neither feared nor mistrusted.
You have my prayers and God’s blessings.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:22 PM

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 1:54 PM

Kids are really, really good at eavesdropping. I don’t think the parents necessarily brought it up intentionally with him around (although that’s a possibility), but it seems reasonable that they’ve talked about all sorts of life issues over the course of a few years without necessarily remembering having the specific conversation. Or they just fed him some clues without realizing what they were doing. The emotional trauma of a miscarriage would give them a powerful incentive to turn what might have initially just been a strange remark from a sedated 4-year old into something bigger.

It’s sad, in a way, because they’re obviously grieving (everyone is at some point). It feels a little morbid to pick apart their grief like this, but if the story is going to be treated like news, it should be subject to some baseline scrutiny. It’s too plausible that the kid overheard some things and is just trying to make his parents feel better not to bring it up.

Miracles? No, the Bible is full of them. If anything, modern times have created more skeptics than we had in the past.

I may have misunderstood your point in other posts. I’m saying that the fact that the modern idea of a miracle is so different from the biblical standard, and in a way that reflects the change in cultural environment, is sufficient grounds for skepticism. So, no wonder there are more skeptics.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 2:24 PM

If the answer to the question “why did that priest rape that child?” is God has a plan for that child that we cannot understand, then that God is a horrible horrible entity.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 1:38 PM

How does that make him horrible exactly? He is the creator. Sure he sets things in motion for his own glory.

Christians are being tortured around the globe for their faith. Their persecutors have told them that the torture will stop if they renounce their god. They refuse and in turn give glory to the great I am.

There is no problem of evil for the christian. God has ordained men to do evil. Man will be held accountable for his evil. It’s not a logical or moral problem. You just dont like it.

Doug Wilson sums it up nicely, “The Atheist says ‘There is no God, and I hate him.’”

But the problem of evil is a real problem for the atheist. How can he complain about any injustice if there is no God? Injustice is in the eye of the beholder. Injustice is really just a consequence of atoms bouncing around. People are just evolved bags of meat. No different from another smaller evolved bag of meat.

I turn the tables on you and ask you to explain why a priest raping a child is a no-no from your humanist worldview. You can’t. They are contradictory.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 2:25 PM

People dislike those whom they fear, or those whom they don’t trust.
You are neither feared nor mistrusted.
You have my prayers and God’s blessings.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:22 PM
——–
If I were religious I would pray for an end to the suffering of anybody who has to interact with you ever.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM

How does that make him horrible exactly?

If you were talking about a person instead of god, the answer would be obvious. Nobody would seriously argue that a person who devised the world the way god has is righteous. That’s why these arguments always have so much equivocation about the inscrutability of god’s plan.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM

How does that make him horrible exactly? He is the creator. Sure he sets things in motion for his own glory.

Christians are being tortured around the globe for their faith. Their persecutors have told them that the torture will stop if they renounce their god. They refuse and in turn give glory to the great I am.

There is no problem of evil for the christian. God has ordained men to do evil. Man will be held accountable for his evil. It’s not a logical or moral problem. You just dont like it.

Doug Wilson sums it up nicely, “The Atheist says ‘There is no God, and I hate him.’”

But the problem of evil is a real problem for the atheist. How can he complain about any injustice if there is no God? Injustice is in the eye of the beholder. Injustice is really just a consequence of atoms bouncing around. People are just evolved bags of meat. No different from another smaller evolved bag of meat.

I turn the tables on you and ask you to explain why a priest raping a child is a no-no from your humanist worldview. You can’t. They are contradictory.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 2:25 PM
——
You would claim morals come from the Bible.
I know morals are innate to our species, on a bell curve.

You have no explanation for societies that evolved rules and regs without the help from one of your clowns in a robe.

Maybe one day you’ll wake up. But probably not. Who cares.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM

God bless you Dave.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:36 PM

Religions tell children they might go to hell and that they MUST believe, while science tells children they CAME from the stars and presents reasoning they CAN believe

As Bishop Lancelot Andrews once said, “The nearer the church, the further from god.” Maybe you need to run. Away from the mosque, away from the church, away from the priests and the imams, away from the books to have ANY chance of FINDING god. Squeeze a fraction of the galaxy into your understanding of life, and THEN you’ll have a better understanding of what you’re looking for when looking for god.

Faith robs us of truth. The grounds for recommending belief are that it is true. You make a fundamental mistake if you fail to accept it. We can’t claim truth without justification, and we can’t claim justification unless our evidence rules out the alternatives. If we can’t judge between alternatives, then it doesn’t make any sense to insist that one of them is true and the others are mistaken. Faith is justification-less belief so faith precludes any claims to truth.

Reason is the set of cognitive capacities that make it possible for us to seek out evidence, sift through it, and draw conclusions. Our reasoning capacities are the only tools we have for separating reality from fantasy, fact from fiction, justified belief from nonsense. Once we abandon reason and evidence, there are no principled, coherent, non-prejudicial grounds on which to prefer one god over another. How many supernatural hypotheses are out there for your consideration? How many gods vying for your faith? Is the only game in town from the church you grew up in?

On what basis will you decide to opt for one and not the others?

If it’s ok to abandon reason and just believe without justification, then why not Baal, Acchupta, Ryangombe, Pu’gu, Pen Annwen, Orcus, Orunmila, Nintinugga, Ningirama, Montu, Mahamanasika, Kamrusepa, or Hatdastsisi?

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 2:44 PM

Religion is the outcome of unresolved contradictions in the material world.

If you make the assumption that religion is man-made, then very few things are mysterious to you.

If you make the assumption that religion is man-made, then you would know why… It would be obvious to you why there are so many religions.

When you make the assumption that it is man-made, you will understand why it is that religion has been such a disappointment to our species…

Despite innumerable revivals, missionaries traveling here, there, and yon… The same problems remain with us as a species… Assume that ALL of them were discredited at the same time, all of our problems and questions would be exactly what they are right now:

How do we live with one another?
Where indeed do our morals and ethics come from?
What are our duties to one another?
How shall we build the “just” city?

All these questions would remain exactly the same… Emancipate yourselves from the shackles of a celestial dictator, foisted on you by other men, and you will have taken the first REAL step towards being free.

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 2:45 PM

Knowing how easily children imagine things or are easily impressionable, I shall remain the constant skeptic. But there always is that TINY possibility out there.

V-rod on November 19, 2010 at 2:48 PM

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 2:45 PM
—–
uh oh – watch out – that Roy Rogers as*hole is going to pray for you

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:48 PM

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 2:44 PM

There is only One true God. Like Dave, God believes in you too, even when you don’t believe in Him.
It’s okay. God will always be there for you.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:50 PM

uh oh – watch out – that Roy Rogers as*hole is going to pray for you

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:48 PM

I’m not worried if he was to pray for me. I now know prayer to be an ineffectual process that does more for the person praying than the person receiving it.

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 2:52 PM

There is only One true God. Like Dave, God believes in you too, even when you don’t believe in Him.
It’s okay. God will always be there for you.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:50 PM

Which god will be there for me Roy? Yahweh? Allah? Wotan? Zeus?

Besides that, I never said I couldn’t conceptualize a god but IF there is one I’m sure he isn’t a caring one else why do we see so much suffering in the world?

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 2:54 PM

I am happy that this child experienced heaven. I wish more stories like this were posted.
We all know about the evil in the world.
Good needs an equal chance.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 2:56 PM

As to a drone-like experience? I don’t know. That’s not how it’s depicted. My understanding is that Eden was Heaven on Earth. They could commune directly with God the way only those without sin can. But it seems they couldn’t appreciate that without first learning what sin is, just as some can’t appreciate having a roof over their heads until they’ve experienced living without one.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 2:05 PM

There isn’t much detail in the description of Eden, but apparently it was insufficiently engaging that Eve risked it all for the fruit of a particular tree.

God created Eve with hunger and desire and then created a tree with a fruit that was “pleasing to the eye”. If, before the fall, man didn’t know death then God could have created Eve without hunger. But He didn’t. He created both hunger and a nearby tree with some delicious fruit.

dedalus on November 19, 2010 at 2:58 PM

Kids are really, really good at eavesdropping.

I realize this, but so do parents, far more than I do. That’s why they usually wait until the little ones are asleep before talking about things like that.

Like I’ve said, I’m not ruling out the possibility that he heard. I just disagree with your comment that 7-year-olds have likely heard about their mothers miscarriages. Because this one claims he met his sister, it’s far more likely that he in particular did, but if he did, I wouldn’t consider him typical by any means.

Also, rereading the post, he said this as 4-year-old. It’s significantly less likely that most 4-year-olds have that kind of knowledge. Even explaining that a baby was in his mother’s tummy is a bit of a stretch for many kids that age.

Again, not saying he didn’t hear it.

The emotional trauma of a miscarriage would give them a powerful incentive to turn what might have initially just been a strange remark from a sedated 4-year old into something bigger.

Probably. It is a little creepy.

but if the story is going to be treated like news

Is it really being treated like news? It’s not going to change anyone’s mind. There are perfectly logical explanations for this kid’s story. If it’s news, it’s on par with random lights in cities that freak people out. It won’t change anyone’s mind.

I may have misunderstood your point in other posts. I’m saying that the fact that the modern idea of a miracle is so different from the biblical standard, and in a way that reflects the change in cultural environment, is sufficient grounds for skepticism. So, no wonder there are more skeptics.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 2:24 PM

Sure, but just because there are more skeptics doesn’t mean there are less miracles. As I said earlier, just because we can explain how something happened, doesn’t prove that God wasn’t involved. Jesus specifically told his people that they’d be able to do what he did and more. It’s entirely possible that his point wasn’t that he’d give his people superpowers but that they’d understand later what he already understood about the world and would then be able to do things that only appear to defy explanation.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 2:58 PM

This thread has convinced me to start worshipping Cthulhu.

PRAY TO BE EATEN FIRST!

The Lone Platypus on November 19, 2010 at 3:00 PM

- The universe is wonderful and complex
- Nothing wonderful and complex can come from nothing
- So, obviously God created it

So where did God come from?

- God always was, the ultimate cause without cause, magnificent and wonderful beyond all

…ok, that was helpful…

The God Hypothesis is the ultimate in circular reasoning

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:00 PM

Gee I thought I was on Hot Air. Some of these comments feel like the D.U. or HuffPo.

Atheists and Christians will never agree on anything when it comes to discussions about religion and faith.

Respect each individual’s right to believe what they want. Being deliberately provocative (ridiculing people who believe in fairy tales) or antagonistic (constantly offering prayers to someone who has made it abundantly clear that they find them insulting) – does neither side any good.

Believe the kid or don’t. No one’s mind will be changed in this kind of discourse.

Wow.

KrisinNE on November 19, 2010 at 3:06 PM

There isn’t much detail in the description of Eden, but apparently it was insufficiently engaging that Eve risked it all for the fruit of a particular tree.

That’s assuming she truly believed she was risking something. She did try to hide after all and lied to God initially.

Like I said earlier, we don’t know how long they were there. After hundreds of years it’s understandable that one’s perception on the matter could change.

God created Eve with hunger and desire and then created a tree with a fruit that was “pleasing to the eye”. If, before the fall, man didn’t know death then God could have created Eve without hunger. But He didn’t. He created both hunger and a nearby tree with some delicious fruit.

dedalus on November 19, 2010 at 2:58 PM

It wasn’t the only tree with fruit, and there’s plenty pleasing about a delicious meal. I’m not sure why you think a perfect god would have created human beings without the capacity to enjoy one.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:07 PM

KrisinNE on November 19, 2010 at 3:06 PM

Choice and free will is how we decide to live our lives.
You can either live your life in light or in darkness. Carrying pain and anger inside is never healthy.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:09 PM

You would claim morals come from the Bible.
I know morals are innate to our species, on a bell curve.

You know they are innate to our species, on a bell curve? What makes one contradictory morale better than another? Who are you to complain about being eaten by cannibals? You are nobody but an evolved bag of meat. I repeat, explain how your perspective can consistently say that a priest raping a child is bad.

You have no explanation for societies that evolved rules and regs without the help from one of your clowns in a robe.

I guess that’s easy for you to think since I didn’t give you an explanation. Dave:1, Strawman:0.

The explanation is biblical and reasonable.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. – (Romans 1:19 ESV)
God in his grace allows man not to be completely evil all of the time. That’s why unbelieving man is in someway moral.

Maybe one day you’ll wake up. But probably not. Who cares.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM

How childish. I could say the same. “I know you are but what am I?”

The truth is that you’re more than just asleep. You are spiritually dead. And you have no ability to come out of your grave. He must call you out of the grave. Then you will respond.

When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” (John 11:43-44 ESV)

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:11 PM

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:00 PM

I think most people have an easier time imaging that God created himself than imaging the universe somehow created itself. Obviously at the start of it all there was nothing and then something.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:12 PM

It wasn’t the only tree with fruit, and there’s plenty pleasing about a delicious meal. I’m not sure why you think a perfect god would have created human beings without the capacity to enjoy one.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:07 PM

If Eve hadn’t bitten the apple, would we have had Burger King?

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Interesting how faith and science both agree on what “was” the moment before God said, “Let there be light.”

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Who cares.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 2:30 PM

This sums up the consistent atheist position. But then again you complain about child rape. Why do you care?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:16 PM

Obviously at the start of it all there was nothing and then something.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:12 PM

The current explanation for the origin of the universe, as I understand it, is that there was something and then something else. Exploring back to the big bang, things admittedly get a little spooky, though.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM

If Eve hadn’t bitten the apple, would we have had Burger King?

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Doubtful. Many theologians theorize that all animals were vegetarians in Eden. So maybe dedalus is correct, and Eden was a total bore. It technically was the first draft though.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM

Carrying pain and anger inside is never healthy.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:09 PM

WHY do Christians think all atheists are hate filled, angry people? I’m not, and I’m sure many many others aren’t but I’m sure some of them are as well.

You take the tone of our pointing out the issues with Christianity and other religions and conflate that to mean we’re angry and filled with pain… That’s NOT the case.

We’re surely bothered by your and other peoples inability to see the delusion you are in but damn! We’re not unhappy people, we just prefer to show YOU the light!

While it’s a nifty little rhetorical trick to say we’re living our lives in the darkness, and a bit poetic, it’s the furthest thing from the truth.

If anyone is living their lives in darkness, it’s the religious person. Your vision of god is WAY too narrow and constrained.

Go look up Baruch Spinoza’s god and get back to me. If I had a god I believed in, it would be one like his and Einsteins.

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 3:21 PM

I think most people have an easier time imaging that God created himself than imaging the universe somehow created itself. Obviously at the start of it all there was nothing and then something.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:12 PM

Why would that be any easier?

I can see how it could serve as a thin buffer against strangeness, but the strangeness is still there.

And it just gets weirder when the strangeness is supposed to have motives and a plan.

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:22 PM

The current explanation for the origin of the universe, as I understand it, is that there was something and then something else. Exploring back to the big bang, things admittedly get a little spooky, though.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:20 PM

That’s obviously what I’m referencing. I realize the Big Bang wasn’t a bang of nothing colliding into nothing, but eventually, in any theory on the start of it all, you inevitably get to a point where there’s nothing.

It could just be that we’re not thinking of it the right way and simply can’t comprehend what there was before.

There’s a T-shirt that says “Magic is just the stuff science hasn’t made boring yet.” Unless (or maybe until?) we figure it out, it’ll seem spooky at the very least even if it’s fairly mundane.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:24 PM

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 3:21 PM

There is only One God, and you aren’t the first person who had to journey a while before you find Him.
It’s all good.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:24 PM

It wasn’t the only tree with fruit, and there’s plenty pleasing about a delicious meal. I’m not sure why you think a perfect god would have created human beings without the capacity to enjoy one.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:07 PM

Why embed something that will lead to the downfall of your creation in a delicious food source? If it had to be in a tree, then maybe somewhere as unappetizing as the bark? Tempting for termites but not for humans.

Yes, it’s metaphorical but God had the ability to make the source of sin far less desirable. Within the parameters of the story, the fall wasn’t an accident or even very difficult to predict.

dedalus on November 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” ~ Matthew 11:28-30

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM

Go look up Baruch Spinoza’s god and get back to me. If I had a god I believed in, it would be one like his and Einsteins.

SauerKraut537 on November 19, 2010 at 3:21 PM

He’s on my to read list.

Interesting. My pastor just mentioned Spinoza and Einstein on his blog.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:30 PM

It’s all good.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:24 PM

It’s not all good. God isn’t who we make him to be. He is who he is.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM

God has a plan for everybody.

No one said it would be easy.

It may be difficult, and it may be painful, but it’s all made good through God’s love.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:35 PM

That’s obviously what I’m referencing. I realize the Big Bang wasn’t a bang of nothing colliding into nothing, but eventually, in any theory on the start of it all, you inevitably get to a point where there’s nothing.

That’s where I disagree. I don’t see any rationale for assuming that non-existence should be favored over existence. Is there any philosophical principle that demands one beginning, rather than a series of beginnings?

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:36 PM

I can see how it could serve as a thin buffer against strangeness, but the strangeness is still there.

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:22 PM

That’s why. I’m not saying it’s easy, just easier. It’s very hard regardless.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:37 PM

It may be difficult, and it may be painful, but it’s all made good through God’s love.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:35 PM

Your ignoring the fact that God is also just, hates evil, terrifying and vengeful.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:41 PM

Why embed something that will lead to the downfall of your creation

I don’t accept your premise that it did. As I said earlier, the angels had no such temptations but fell anyway. With them, we have the variable of the tree removed entirely and still have the same result.

Yes, it’s metaphorical but God had the ability to make the source of sin far less desirable. Within the parameters of the story, the fall wasn’t an accident or even very difficult to predict.

dedalus on November 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM

That’s the thing though. Sin is far less desirable, but that doesn’t mean we always see it that way. Far more often than not, we see it as the beautiful apple in a wasteland. That’s the completion of the metaphor.

We’ve turned Satan into a beast in our depictions of him, but in the Bible, he’s actually the most beautiful creature, second to none among angels. If it’s a metaphor, that’s it’s point, that sin is seemingly desirable from an outside perspective. It’s only once you’ve actually participated in sin that you can understand what it actually is.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM

God has a plan for everybody.

No one said it would be easy.

It may be difficult, and it may be painful, but it’s all made good through God’s love.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:35 PM
——–
If it were true that there is a plan for everybody, that would make this existence the most horrible thing imaginable.
Some people get to be raped
Some get to be murdered
Some get to burn alive in plane crashes
Some get to have cancer
Some get to come hear and listen to an arrogant jacka** like you make outrageous claims of knowing what God’s intentions are.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM

That’s where I disagree. I don’t see any rationale for assuming that non-existence should be favored over existence. Is there any philosophical principle that demands one beginning, rather than a series of beginnings?

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:36 PM

Even a series of beginnings has a beginning of the beginnings.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:44 PM

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:41 PM

As you said, God is who He is. “I am who I am” ~ Exodus 3:13-15

Jesus showed us God’s love and mercy. I walk in the shadow of the Lord and I am at peace.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:45 PM

Even a series of beginnings has a beginning of the beginnings.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:44 PM

There’s no reason it has to. If time without end is possible, time without beginning is just as reasonable.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:51 PM

“Who knows truly? Who here will declare whence it arose, whence this creation? The devas are subsequent to the creation of this. Who, then, knows whence it has come into being?

Whence this creation has come into being; whether it was made or not; he in the highest heaven is its surveyor.

Surely he knows

or perhaps he knows not.”

Says scripture

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:51 PM

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM

Thank you Dave.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:52 PM

If it were true that there is a plan for everybody, that would make this existence the most horrible thing imaginable.
Some people get to be raped
Some get to be murdered
Some get to burn alive in plane crashes
Some get to have cancer
Some get to come hear and listen to an arrogant jacka** like you make outrageous claims of knowing what God’s intentions are.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM

Why do you care bag of meat?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:53 PM

“To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” ~ Acts 26:17-19

As God is, so God loves.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:54 PM

There’s no reason it has to. If time without end is possible, time without beginning is just as reasonable.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:51 PM

I thought time without end was a Christian concept. What’s the scientific basis for it?

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 4:02 PM

Why do you care bag of meat?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:53 PM
—–
That you’re such a pathetic simpleton that you cannot derive joy from the awesomeness of everything around you without needing to assign the responsibility for its existence to some magical cruel overlord is not my problem. Keep wasting your Sundays.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 4:03 PM

Thank you Dave.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 3:52 PM

Why do you care bag of meat?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:53 PM

That’s the best you can do?

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:06 PM

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 3:51 PM

At least that’s accurate.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 4:07 PM

That you’re such a pathetic simpleton that you cannot derive joy from the awesomeness of everything around you without needing to assign the responsibility for its existence to some magical cruel overlord is not my problem. Keep wasting your Sundays.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 4:03 PM

Translation: I can’t answer your question but I’ll insult you instead. It makes me feel better.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:08 PM

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:06 PM

I am not the one being tested.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 4:09 PM

Why do you care bag of meat?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 3:53 PM

That’s the best you can do?

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:06 PM

Your response has no substance. I posed a question to Dave and he can’t respond. Can you answer the question?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:10 PM

Translation: I can’t answer your question but I’ll insult you instead. It makes me feel better.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:08 PM
——
Complete randomness and natural selection led to me being able to sit here in my parliamentary office and call you a sad gasbag. BUT WAIT HOW COME MONKEYS AREN’T EVOLVING BEFORE OUR EYES HOW COME HOW COME

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 4:12 PM

Complete randomness and natural selection led to me being able to sit here in my parliamentary office and call you a sad gasbag.

I’m the gasbag? You’re the one that spouts sillyness and won’t answer a complex question.

BUT WAIT HOW COME MONKEYS AREN’T EVOLVING BEFORE OUR EYES HOW COME HOW COME

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 4:12 PM

Dave:2, Strawman: 0

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:16 PM

Your response has no substance. I posed a question to Dave and he can’t respond. Can you answer the question?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:10 PM

Of course, though I may need some clarification. Do you mean the question ‘Why do you care bag of meat?’, or another?

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:17 PM

Your response has no substance. I posed a question to Dave and he can’t respond. Can you answer the question?

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:10 PM

The problem is that your question doesn’t either. We’re not bags of meat, and it doesn’t take theology to prove that, nor does it take theology to prove that people don’t like being eaten and therefore tend to frown on those who would try that. The Golden Rule is very accessible.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 4:18 PM

Of course, though I may need some clarification. Do you mean the question ‘Why do you care bag of meat?’, or another?

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:17 PM

Perhaps you didn’t see my comment above in context.

I posted:

But the problem of evil is a real problem for the atheist. How can he complain about any injustice if there is no God? Injustice is in the eye of the beholder. Injustice is really just a consequence of atoms bouncing around. People are just evolved bags of meat. No different from another smaller evolved bag of meat.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:21 PM

That you’re such a pathetic simpleton that you cannot derive joy from the awesomeness of everything around you without needing to assign the responsibility for its existence to some magical cruel overlord is not my problem. Keep wasting your Sundays.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 4:03 PM

Right, because you’re so joyful, Dave. The joy just radiates out of you.

Grace_is_sufficient on November 19, 2010 at 4:21 PM

Complete randomness and natural selection led to me being able to sit here in my parliamentary office and call you a sad gasbag.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 4:12 PM

Deputy to the undersecretary of Conservation, Nunavut, is not as impressive as you might think.

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:22 PM

Perhaps you didn’t see my comment above in context.

I posted:

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:21 PM

Indeed, I missed that. Thank you.

It seems your frame of reference resides in the realm of fantasy or the supernatural. I select a frame of reference based on human cultural norms, which are at least observable.

Either or both may be arbitrary.

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:27 PM

The problem is that your question doesn’t either. We’re not bags of meat, and it doesn’t take theology to prove that,

Out of context it might not. But with the context of this post with my previous comment it does.

I was only saying that from Dave’s viewpoint he’s only an evolved bag of meat and contradictory evolved morals have no substantive meaning and therefore cannot be weighed against one another.

nor does it take theology to prove that people don’t like being eaten and therefore tend to frown on those who would try that. The Golden Rule is very accessible.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 4:18 PM

I wasn’t trying to prove with theology that people don’t like to be eaten. I’m saying that a person (evolved bag of meat) has no right to complain against the ethics of the cannibal.

I like chatting with you Esther. It has been awhile.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:27 PM

Proof of the it ain’t our place to question why God killed 200 people but spared 5 bullsh*t. Thank you.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 1:35 PM

I’m sorry. I could have SWORN you said there was an airplane crash. I just assumed IT killed all of those people. You really think GOD killed them?

If the answer to the question “why did that priest rape that child?” is God has a plan for that child that we cannot understand, then that God is a horrible horrible entity.

Dave Rywall on November 19, 2010 at 1:38 PM

Like the other example, it’s one thing for a person to commit evil against another; it’s quite another for God to commit evil. God permits us to sin — free will and all that. That sin hurts other people. Natural occurrences, accidents, these things also hurt people. For the most part, even the most ardent believer would acknowledges that God permits these bad things to happen. He doesn’t cause them; he doesn’t stop them. That’s the nature of free will and a fallen world. SOMETIMES, I believe — for reasons I don’t necessarily understand, and based upon criteria to which I am not privy — God chooses to intervene. In your airplane example, God didn’t KILL 200; he saved 5. Maybe you think he should have saved all 205; but you’re not God. When you create a universe, you can make those decisions.

A final word, and I have to work, so you’ll have the last word on me. I don’t know you, and I have no supernatural gift of reading minds. And I don’t agree with Roy Rogers about much — including his WAY of saying what I’m about to say. But you very much SEEM to have a great deal of bitterness against Christians. You owe me no explanations; but it would be a shame if you missed out on a perfect God because of His flawed servants (lest there be any uncertainty: yes, that definitely includes me).

RegularJoe on November 19, 2010 at 4:30 PM

I believe the kid.

Once I sat next to a 7 year old boy on a flight from Auckland, NZ to LA. He had terminal cancer and was part of a group of kids going to Disneyland from the Make a Wish Foundation in NZ. At the time my mother had cancer and she later died so I soon was conversing with the boy about his condition. He had been told he was going to die in about 6 months but he was remarkably calm and upbeat about this prospect and I asked him why he was so happy. He said “Because I will see Jesus again”. As a Christian that sent a bolt of spiritual interest through my whole body. I asked if he could tell me about the first time he met Him and the boy proceeded to tell me about how Jesus came to see him one night when he was very sick and frightened. He told him not to worry and that the pain and sickness would be temporary and that soon he would come home to live back with God again. The boy was very matter of fact as if it happened every day of the week. He was very clear and simple and unhesitating with his comments. I asked him what Jesus was like and the boy looked at me straight in the eyes and said “He was glowing white and he made me feel very very happy and I felt really warm inside when he spoke to me”. Then he paused and said “soon I will be able to see Him again and that makes me happy”. When he said that to me I felt a huge wave of love and spiritual power and warmth as a witness of the Spirit that he was telling the truth. Tears came down my cheeks as the impact of what happened hit me. I told him he was a very lucky young man. He smiled and carried on playing with his video game and we never spoke about it again as he reverted to being a normal 7 year old boy.

About a year later my mother succumbed to the cancer. We had many spiritual experiences with her that taught me that when death approaches, the veil between this life and the next gets thin. My sister and brother-in-law lived in her home until she died. They used a baby monitor to listen in case of extra distress at night. In the 3 weeks up to her death my mother’s ability to speak coherently deteriorated due to the doses of morphine to kill the pain. Each night she would spent about 30 mins having conversations of sorts but we could never make out what she was saying. My sister felt impressed to ask her if she had been visited by people from the other side and she nodded her head vigorously and tried to say yes. We then got out old family albums and would show her photos and she would shake her head until we showed her the picture of a deceased ancestor and then she would nod. All told over the 3 weeks before she passed she indicated that she had been visited by 20 of her deceased relatives. My mother was a devout believer and was a diligent family history researcher.

fejj on November 19, 2010 at 4:31 PM

Don’t lose the message this wonderful story brings. This child was given a gift to share with the rest of us. It is a time to feel good, not a time to feel anger and pain. How thankful must his parents be for the life of their son?

When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” ~ Luke 5:20

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 4:32 PM

I thought time without end was a Christian concept. What’s the scientific basis for it?

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 4:02 PM

I don’t think it’s true that eternity is a Christian concept. It’s a pretty common idea across many, for lack of a better phrase, epistemological traditions.

I was thinking about it, and I have to be more precise about what I mean by time before guessing what the scientific basis is. This might take a minute, I hope you’re bored. I’m just talking about a simple ordering of events. Like a transmission of SOS that has always been transmitting and always will — time is just observing the difference between “S” and “O.”

It’s a little different than the scientific definition of time, which includes an entropic component. Basically, time goes one way in our universe because systems act to maximize entropy. Like an egg breaking on the floor. It’s never going to spontaneously reassemble itself because that would mean entropy — crudely speaking, disorder — would be spontaneously decreasing and time would be running backwards. Time without end is possible because entropy can always increase.

The other side to that is that the big bang had to happen because there has to be a singularity — the “egg” — for entropy, and time itself, to start somewhere. So here’s the spooky part: what does it mean for time itself to start?

I don’t have the vocabulary to even contemplate what that means. I consider it kind of like an eternity, because the singularity must have existed in a state of timelessness. Or, it could be that there’s another universe that led up to the big bang where the rule was that entropy always decreases (which is fun to consider if you’re a gigantic physics geek). So the big bang is really just the “O” in an infinite regression of SOS.

Getting to something resembling a point, once we start considering what it means for time to exist, I think there are more or less exotic possibilities than looking at the universe like a book that has a first page and a last page.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 4:32 PM

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 4:09 PM

You’ve done a wonderful job of living out Luke 6:28 here, Roy. And it’s been an inspiration to me. God bless you.

Grace_is_sufficient on November 19, 2010 at 4:43 PM

Indeed, I missed that. Thank you.

It seems your frame of reference resides in the realm of fantasy or the supernatural. I select a frame of reference based on human cultural norms, which are at least observable.

Either or both may be arbitrary.

DarkCurrent on November 19, 2010 at 4:27 PM

I appreciate you attempting to answer the question. Spiritual reality doesn’t change because one of us selects it or not. As this story seems to have some weight. I would argue that the spiritual realm is observable even while we are in this world. It is visible in changed lives that could not have been otherwise without regeneration from the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate your frankness and civility.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:45 PM

Grace_is_sufficient on November 19, 2010 at 4:43 PM

For the blessings I have received from the Lord, it seems woefully inadequate.

God loves those who believe in Him. God forgives those who forgive others. “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” God answers ALL prayers, “Yes”, “No”, or “Not yet”.

God has given me this gift of life. I want God to know how thankful I am.

Roy Rogers on November 19, 2010 at 4:56 PM

Is there any philosophical principle that demands one beginning, rather than a series of beginnings?

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 3:36 PM

Are there endings? If so, then is it logical that there are beginnings? Otherwise, wouldn’t there be constant motion with no force to cause stopping or starting?

txmomof6 on November 19, 2010 at 5:04 PM

Are there endings?

I don’t believe so, if an ending is an eventual state where nothing exists or happens.

If so, then is it logical that there are beginnings?

One cannot be deduced from the other by formal logic, so I would say no.

Otherwise, wouldn’t there be constant motion with no force to cause stopping or starting?

txmomof6 on November 19, 2010 at 5:04 PM

That sounds very much like the universe we inhabit. I mean, nothing ever truly just stops. Even the supposedly empty places in space are frothing with atomic gunk.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 5:18 PM

It’s the knowledge that comes through experience, not knowledge in the abstract. To say it was forbidden is to say that you’d forbid your daughter to learn first hand what it’s like to be brutally raped. Obviously she can try it, but that doesn’t mean it’s what’s best. There are some things we’re better off knowing.

As to a drone-like experience? I don’t know. That’s not how it’s depicted. My understanding is that Eden was Heaven on Earth. They could commune directly with God the way only those without sin can. But it seems they couldn’t appreciate that without first learning what sin is, just as some can’t appreciate having a roof over their heads until they’ve experienced living without one.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 2:05 PM

Very well put.

tigerlily on November 19, 2010 at 5:26 PM

We’ve turned Satan into a beast in our depictions of him, but in the Bible, he’s actually the most beautiful creature, second to none among angels. If it’s a metaphor, that’s it’s point, that sin is seemingly desirable from an outside perspective. It’s only once you’ve actually participated in sin that you can understand what it actually is.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM

I would only slightly clarify:

In Scripture, before Lucifer (which means angel of light) fell from the Heavens, he was indeed one of the most beautiful and intelligent of the entire angelic host.

Since his fall, he has been known as satan, (meaning the adversary) whose knowingly irrevocable and eternal decision to separate himself from his Creator has resulted in the irrevocable corruption of his beauty; a beauty corrupted in equal measure to it’s orginal magnificence.

His ablities and intellect remain but are also corrupted, now exercised only for keeping souls from their Creator; getting them to oppose God; attempting to direct them to their eternal destruction and loss; his powers directed only in the perversion of the good.

Of course, as St. Pio said, satan is like a vicious dog on a leash. No matter how he foams, snaps and snarls, if you don’t go near him he can’t hurt you. In other words, satan’s powers are limited by our free will. He can’t control anyone who won’t allow him.

And it’s true about the disguise that satan dresses sin up in. Like a venus fly trap, it looks so good until you reap the consequences by landing in it.

tigerlily on November 19, 2010 at 6:05 PM

This would mean that every aborted/miscarried child is waiting up in heaven as well. I have always believed this myself from other stories like this that many people tell.

Mojave Mark on November 19, 2010 at 7:20 PM

This is an interesting story.

Unlike the comments here.

For several months I’ve been disappointed in the people that run this site – now I’ve pretty much had it with most of the commenters as well.

Hot Air is a sad hollow place these days.

What a waste.

Dorvillian on November 19, 2010 at 7:50 PM

“Heliotropium”

Get it and read it. Learn to live with hope.

Thank you very much for posting this story, Scoop.

karl9000 on November 19, 2010 at 8:14 PM

Blake on November 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM

I think it’s better than all the gay posts we have to put up with.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on November 19, 2010 at 11:18 PM

Next on Hot Air, alien abductions!

Potfry on November 20, 2010 at 12:59 AM

Even a series of beginnings has a beginning of the beginnings.

Esthier on November 19, 2010 at 3:44 PM

Unless it’s a loop.

Tzetzes on November 20, 2010 at 2:03 AM

Read Dr. Michael Newton’s Life between Lives series of books. Then this kind of phenomenom makes perfect sense…

Dandapani on November 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM

I’m sure everyone’s gone now, but I bookmarked this…

I wasn’t trying to prove with theology that people don’t like to be eaten. I’m saying that a person (evolved bag of meat) has no right to complain against the ethics of the cannibal.

I think I see what you’re saying, but my concept of ethics is that they are ingrained for a reason.

I like chatting with you Esther. It has been awhile.

shick on November 19, 2010 at 4:27 PM

Thanks, me too. I’ve been coming here less lately, but there are still a lot of great people here.

Esthier on November 22, 2010 at 5:39 PM

The other side to that is that the big bang had to happen because there has to be a singularity — the “egg” — for entropy, and time itself, to start somewhere. So here’s the spooky part: what does it mean for time itself to start?

Precisely. It’s understood that once broken, it’s theoretically possible for the smallest of its pieces to continue breaking apart for eternity, but it’s not understood what put entropy into motion. If it just always was… that’s just a hard concept to understand, with or without a Creator.

Getting to something resembling a point, once we start considering what it means for time to exist, I think there are more or less exotic possibilities than looking at the universe like a book that has a first page and a last page.

RightOFLeft on November 19, 2010 at 4:32 PM

I’m fairly confident that’s the least likely explanation, no matter which faction is closest to the truth, but it is still the easiest to contemplate. Maybe while living in time, we will always be unable to understand the concept of being outside of it.

Esthier on November 22, 2010 at 5:43 PM

Since his fall, he has been known as satan, (meaning the adversary) whose knowingly irrevocable and eternal decision to separate himself from his Creator has resulted in the irrevocable corruption of his beauty; a beauty corrupted in equal measure to it’s orginal magnificence.

His ablities and intellect remain but are also corrupted, now exercised only for keeping souls from their Creator; getting them to oppose God; attempting to direct them to their eternal destruction and loss; his powers directed only in the perversion of the good.

I haven’t found this anywhere in the Bible, so I think our disagreement here is one based on our different denominations. We agree that Lucifer was described as the most beautiful angel, but I’ve read nothing that would indicate he ceased being so after The Fall. Furthermore, some theologians would argue that The Fall is more of an ongoing process than Genesis would lead anyone to believe.

This is kinda wasted if no one else saved this page, but the theory takes the story directly from Revelation, which reads like a comic book version of the entire Bible, and the “dragon” falling after Christ, not before. It’s an interesting take on Satan and the final battle.

Of course, as St. Pio said, satan is like a vicious dog on a leash. No matter how he foams, snaps and snarls, if you don’t go near him he can’t hurt you. In other words, satan’s powers are limited by our free will. He can’t control anyone who won’t allow him.

And it’s true about the disguise that satan dresses sin up in. Like a venus fly trap, it looks so good until you reap the consequences by landing in it.

tigerlily on November 19, 2010 at 6:05 PM

Agreed on this point, which is really the main one.

Esthier on November 22, 2010 at 5:48 PM

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