Precarious Albion
posted at 5:00 pm on November 13, 2010 by J.E. Dyer
Americans have seen the reports of British students violently protesting the hike in college tuition planned by London’s governing coalition. Fewer may have seen the report of a protest by Muslims against the national moment of silence observed on Armistice – or, in Britain, Remembrance – Day, 11 November.
According to the UK Daily Mail, the protesters burned a model of a red poppy – the symbol of remembrance for World War I – and chanted “British soldiers burn in hell!” Says the Mail: “They held banners which read ‘Islam will dominate’ and ‘Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell’.” The Muslim protest was countered by an English Defence League protest, with London police keeping the two groups separated.
Britain today still has a productive demographic that sees value in things like restoring fiscal responsibility to government, commemorating Britain’s national identity and history, and maintaining public order. But that demographic is increasingly under siege.
Among Europe’s members of the G-8, Britain is also increasingly isolated in the rush of the others – Germany, France, Italy – to secure agreements with Russia. The Cameron government is seeking to improve Britain’s long-frosty relations with Russia. But there’s a sense of restricted latitude in this move: a lurking idea that Britain might be late to the table, and might need Russia’s goodwill more than vice versa. Indeed, before the October visit of Foreign Secretary William Hague to Moscow, his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, averred that Moscow expected Britain to “make the first move” to improve relations.
Britain is by no means out of options. But she’s just about out of margin. One reason for that, of course, is the all-but-explicit repudiation by Barack Obama of the “special relationship” between the US and UK. Britain is no longer a true global empire or the sheriff of the seas, but she’s still an island kingdom a few short miles across the Channel from Europe. To maintain political independence, she must either cultivate her own power or obtain the backing of a country that does. The close connection with America has been Britain’s high card for the last half century.
But there was a Britain before there was a global America. The pivot toward Russia represents the reemergence of an older pattern: one in which Britain used continental alliances to maintain a regional balance of power. Britain and France have tempered their courting of Russia with a new bilateral defense pact between the two of them, concluded last week. As NATO dismantles its raison d’etre, the old fault lines of alliance and wagon tracks of diplomacy reappear. The factors in why France and Britain made this agreement, but Germany is not part of it, are the same ones that obtained before there was a NATO or a global America: some alliance is necessary, but a tripartite pact with Germany would alarm Russia too much.
Germany, naturally, prefers to retain a privileged central position anyway; for Berlin, the right note was struck with Angela Merkel’s participation in October’s three-way talks with Nicolas Sarkozy and Dmitry Medvedev. But Germany is deeply embedded in Russia’s oil and natural gas empire too. The Germans have their own growing ties to Russia.
The British soul may be much like ours, but British geography is a stern taskmaster. As NATO and the special relationship fade, her leaders have tough choices to make. Even in an earlier era of technology, Britain could never stand alone. She required alliances and strategies; like a ship of state moored to Europe, she needed a network of bumpers and a way of keeping a steady strain on the lines to prevent collision or being cut adrift. Now her post-World War II holiday from that history is coming to an end.
As it does, Britain finds herself not so much bolstered by a stiff upper lip as mired in a protruding lower one. Only Britain can determine whether she will sink into that mire and become something else: a fractious and stupid society, paranoid, entitled, and immobilized. It doesn’t have to happen; I’m pulling for the stiff upper lip to reclaim its territory.
If it does happen, Americans are in for times far more “interesting” than any we’ve had. We’ve never lived in a world in which there was not an anchor of preferential goodwill towards us in Western Europe. Throughout most of our history, that anchor has been Britain. If that anchor is weighed, we will find out just how small, today, the Atlantic Ocean really is.
J.E. Dyer blogs at The Green Room, Commentary’s “contentions” and as The Optimistic Conservative. She writes a weekly column for Patheos.
This post was promoted from GreenRoom to HotAir.com.
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Hey Mo!…I’ll take your hell over your heaven.
Limerick on November 13, 2010 at 5:09 PM
According to the UK Daily Mail, the protesters burned a model of a red poppy – the symbol of remembrance for World War I – and chanted “British soldiers burn in hell!” Says the Mail: “They held banners which read ‘Islam will dominate’ and ‘Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell’.”
===============================
I see Westboro Baptist Church has set up shop
in England!(sarc).
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 5:18 PM
J.E., your prose is always deliciously felicitous.
Seth Halpern on November 13, 2010 at 5:19 PM
I have been trying to figure out what Obama meant when he claimed that the US has had an undeserved position in the world for the last 100 years.
Freddy on November 13, 2010 at 5:24 PM
The Brit boys need to do something about the IslamoNazis.
Jaibones on November 13, 2010 at 5:26 PM
Pamela Geller (Atlas Shrugs) has been all over this:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/11/muslim-protesters-create-havoc-british-soldiers-burn-in-hell-blood-libel-and-burnings.html
guitarguy on November 13, 2010 at 5:30 PM
If it does happen, Americans are in for times far more “interesting” than any we’ve had. We’ve never lived in a world in which there was not an anchor of preferential goodwill towards us in Western Europe.
==========================================
Meanwhile……through Superior Smart Power,Obama is on a
roll…
…and declares war on Germany!!
——————————–
The US thinks it knows who is to blame for its struggling economy: Germany and other countries with a trade surplus. Washington wants to see new rules that would punish such imbalances, but Germany says it shouldn’t be blamed for having more competitive companies than the US.
■In desperation over the grim economic situation, the administration of US President Barack Obama is embarking on a diplomatic offensive intended to pillory countries with chronic trade surpluses. This puts China, Japan and Germany in the line of fire.
A Distorted Global Economy
US to Bully Germany on Trade Surplus at the G-20
11/09/2010
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,727970,00.html
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Sadly, that died in 1945. All political activity since then has been directed towards ensuring that there will be no resurrection.
OldEnglish on November 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Yeah, I’m thinking that the UK is beyond hope.
Too late.
ddrintn on November 13, 2010 at 5:40 PM
It seems like one of Britain’s, and Western Europe in general, biggest problems was relying on the U.S to do most of the heavy lifting for the last sixty odd years while they got drunk on pie in the sky matters. They played around with social engineering, Marxism, rampant entitlements and unsustainable immigration, and now that the U.S has foolishly followed them in these ways, they find themselves without a Superpower daddy to pay their bar tab so to speak.
Grayson on November 13, 2010 at 5:41 PM
The Brit boys need to do something about the IslamoNazis.
Jaibones on November 13, 2010 at 5:26 PM
Jaibones:U-Betcha,and I’m pround to hear this from my
Conservative Prime Minister Steven Harper on
Israel!
=================
Saturday, 13 November 2010
Video: Canadian PM: I Will Defend Israel ‘whatever the cost’
http://www.theospark.net/2010/11/video-canadian-pm-i-will-defend-israel.html
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 5:44 PM
O/T
=====
This is a hoot!
The QE2 is not a boat
Quantitative Easing Explained
http://www.washingtonreb.com/2010/11/13/the-qe2-is-not-a-boat/
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 5:57 PM
Hi, canopfor. Try to ensure that Harper stays around for awhile, we badly need some leadership in the West.
OldEnglish on November 13, 2010 at 5:58 PM
I’m guessing the BBC did not cover these offensive anti-British “protests” at all. The West-hating left wingers may not want to openly ally themselves with the Islamic scum but they generally approve of their message. They’re happy to assist them by not reporting inflammatory stories and aggressively promoting stories that pander to and aid their cause.
Django on November 13, 2010 at 5:58 PM
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 5:44 PM
=================================
Hi, canopfor. Try to ensure that Harper stays around for awhile, we badly need some leadership in the West.
OldEnglish on November 13, 2010 at 5:58 PM
OldEnglish:So true,I knew Harper was pro-Israel,but he said
it very plainly,unlike Obama who sides with Gaza!
:)
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 6:01 PM
Why no posts on google’s disabling of gatewaypundit, one night after it gave play to Glenn Beck’s expose of George Soros’ nazi collaboration past? For shame google and for those blogs who aren’t standing up for gatewaypundit.
eaglewingz08 on November 13, 2010 at 6:09 PM
Is there anything this jerk in the white house has done that supports our allies? He is the biggest looser, the worst president in the history of the United States.
Bambi on November 13, 2010 at 6:18 PM
I really don’t think Britain will be spared major social unrest. Groups like the English Defense League and the BNP are gaining strength every day and the British govt has no capability to stop the coming war between what they call “Asians” (Pakistanis and other Muslims) and the natural born British nationalists. I expect to see major riots and many killed because of them. The British government, however, only has itself to blame. Its utterly failed program to force multiculturalism on Britain is at fault.
Warner Todd Huston on November 13, 2010 at 6:24 PM
Apparently, it has just been moved to the Right Network, and has a few transitioning problems.
OldEnglish on November 13, 2010 at 6:25 PM
Baroness Thatcher would disagree.
I lived in the UK during the Faulklands War. There was a lot of testosterone flowing in those old veins then (36 years after 1945).
itsnotaboutme on November 13, 2010 at 6:34 PM
The Balkanization of Western Europe is not new.
Dr Evil on November 13, 2010 at 6:34 PM
…Whether that can be rekindled is another story.
*sigh*
itsnotaboutme on November 13, 2010 at 6:34 PM
This helps clarify how damaging Obama has been to international relations. Not that liberals care.
scotash on November 13, 2010 at 6:37 PM
The Falklands war encouraged a display of bravado in most people because it was far away, and involved foreigners. (Most people didn’t even know where the Falklands were – and didn’t care).
Baroness Thatcher was the exception, as far as leaders go, and was hated by the majority of the “workers”.
My comment on the death of England really referred to the attitude of the vast majority of the common people. They saw a chance to institute Socialism, and they ran with it.
OldEnglish on November 13, 2010 at 6:46 PM
I thought this was absolutely shocking and I’m surprised it didn’t generate much in the way of outrage:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
Oh well, la-di-da. Just another day in self-loathing, anti-white, anti-Western liberalville. Anything but protect and advocate for native Britons. They’re just icky white people who should be destroyed. Bring in the non-Western foreigners – by the millions.
Django on November 13, 2010 at 6:55 PM
My wife is a brit, having spent much time there in a way it is like here. If you go to NYC or LA one would say the USA is lost, but go to the heartland and you will know differently. It is the same there, their core is in their heartland as well.
Teleycoman on November 13, 2010 at 7:35 PM
I’m pretty sure QE2 is a boat… it is called: Titanic.
Love that Bernanke re-arranging the deck chairs!
I’m heading for a life boat…
ajacksonian on November 13, 2010 at 8:06 PM
Germany has hedged their bets on their oil and gas deal with Russia by fielding a product-improved version of the Leopard II MBT, and making sure their nearest neighbor to the East, Poland, have as many as they want. After Russia’s “initiative” in Georgia,the use of military force by Putin, Medvedev, & Co. LLC cannot be ruled out.
I’m not saying that Russia is dusting off old tactical simulations regarding the Fulda Gap, but you never know.
clear ether
eon
eon on November 13, 2010 at 8:53 PM
Oh well, as you can see from the number of comments, no-one gives a rat’s arse. Expect a defense of the West to be mounted from continental Europe rather than Britain. Oh, and to those Anglophiles who are always going on about how much they love the British: I always reply “Why? They don’t love you. Most of them are yobs, too, a far cry from the English gentleman of your imagination”. Stammering silence ensues.
Fortunata on November 13, 2010 at 9:02 PM
British students, along with a very large segment of the British population have been allowed to draw at the well of UK socialism for decades…and Margaret Thatcher was quite correct…”The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
But, hard choices come with hard remedies and Britain will survive this recent attempt to rein in the spending. So will we…and sooner is better than later. Brace yourselves…the cuts are coming…and the trough is going to get a bit more empty for those who’ve become accustomed to the free sustenance.
But, as to the Moslem protests over Remembrance Day. In a word — disgusting.
The overall problem with Moslems living in Western societies is incrementalism. In small increments, they seek to amend laws, and bit by bit, introduce sharia into the customs and mores of Western societies. It is happening here, as well.
CAIR is filing suit to prevent TSA from doing security checks on Moslem women…they may check the head and neck, but no other place on the body. To do so would be a violation of sharia and would be offensive to Moslems.
We are on the precipice of full-blown stupidity, and our own destruction. How soon will we as a Nation give in to even more Moslem demands, and put an end to basic freedoms and practices they find “offensive?”
If Roman Catholics were to demand the same consideration, the press and all the usual vocal suspects would be howling from the rooftops about how Catholics want to make America a religious, specifically a Roman Catholic, society.
But Moslems? Why do they get a pass?
Why are Christians singled out at every turn and Moslems get to skate?
Unless and until the so-called moderate Moslems in America and across the world stand up on their own two feet and loudly denounce Moslem fundamentalism and extremist Moslem jihad, they are part and parcel to the overall problem. We have a president who remains an apologist for Islam, and is using his bully pulpit not to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and our overall well-being, but is working assiduously to allow incrementalism from the Moslem community to forever change America, and the rest of the world. He cannot even define jihad to a group of Indian students…sheeesh. Some bully pulpit.
Some try to introduce sharia with bombs and guns, and the occasional SUV driven into crowds of students in the middle of a campus, or a few airplanes on a clear September morning, and the others, well, thus far, they’ve been damned silent on the subject…thus are fully culpable in the overall crimes committed by those who, according to our President, “pervert” Islam. When most are doing something, hard to call it a perversion.
Seems the perversion is not just on the part of the fundamentalists. Such is becoming more and more apparent among a growing number of non-Moslem Americans.
So what if Moslem cab drivers demand foot washing facilities at an airport or demand that space be set aside so they can have a mosque at an airport…no big deal, right? Or demand the Koran be taught in our schools.
Imagine Catholics or Jews demanding the same.
Let this sort of thing pass without comment, and we, too, are culpable.
I have Moslem friends, I have spent a considerable time in the Middle East and in Moslem South Asia, and I am still convinced that we, as a Nation, are so afraid of “offending” Moslems so much so that we will allow them to change our way of life, change our laws, change our Constitution, change our legal system, until such a time as all are perfectly compatible with sharia…and at such a time the rest of us will find ourselves without a voice, without freedoms we take for granted, and find ourselves second-class citizens in our own Nation.
We certainly are not getting any support from our President…and the elites, and the Left in general.
Do these people realize what their lives would be like, will be like, should Moslem-inspired changes, sharia, come into full blossom in America?
Best we wake up…and soon.
Equality under the law…that is all I demand.
Equality under the law…and it swings both ways.
Otherwise….well, some folks refuse to melt and blend in in our once-great American melting pot.
And the Islamatization of America is not a far-off dream any more for those who wish to live under sharia.
Plenty of places for them to live…and all reflect the cesspool that stagnates under sharia…and none of them are within civilized, law-abiding, Western nations. Simply put…if you move to a new neighborhood, or a new country, best to conform to the local laws and customs instead of demanding that the rest change to your liking.
Time to pull in the welcome mat for those who refuse to become part of America instead of trying to make America part of their world.
(I apologize in advance for the rant…but this sort of garbage just plain hits a hot button for me.)
coldwarrior on November 13, 2010 at 9:12 PM
Why no posts on google’s disabling of gatewaypundit, one night after it gave play to Glenn Beck’s expose of George Soros’ nazi collaboration past? For shame google and for those blogs who aren’t standing up for gatewaypundit.
eaglewingz08 on November 13, 2010 at 6:09 PM
eaglewingz08:I don’t know if this has been in the works for
sometime,or in response to herr google!
======================================================
GATEWAY PUNDIT MAKES MOVE TO RIGHT NETWORK
Posted by Jim Hoft on Sunday, November 14, 2010, 12:37 AM
Today I moved Gateway Pundit over to Right Network from the First Things website. Right Network is a community which seeks “to entertain, engage, and enlighten Americans who are looking for content that reflects and reinforces their perspective and worldview.”
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/
canopfor on November 13, 2010 at 9:13 PM
Horrid, ugly. Like those mexican nasties in our Southwest. Poor England.
Soon, we in the US will have to choke down the same from ugly Muslims. Brace yourselves, folks. God save America!
disa on November 13, 2010 at 9:53 PM
I understand the sentiment toward Britain – but really, they are too far gone. It does us no good to “chum up” to a disintegrating power.
We need to look at other directions. We need to improve relations with the Chinese and the Russians. If Russia wants to “own” Europe then – let them. Better the Russian than the Mohammedans – because that’s who’s going to inherit Europe otherwise.
China – likewise – needs to be given breathing room.
The world has to be led by LEADERS and STRONG NATIONS. Europe has neither. Britain has neither. Neither Britain nor Europe has a vision or any clue of a path to the future – but Russia and China DO.
We can forge a new world dominance with Russia and China – or …
We can go the way of Europe.
But whatever transpires – OUR days as the lone world policeman are OVER. This was a role forced upon us after World War II – it made logical sense for a time – but it no longer does. It’s now time to get off this merry-go-round, work with the REAL LEADING NATIONS on this planet and share power – and fix our broken selves.
HondaV65 on November 13, 2010 at 10:02 PM
No but ITV News (the second biggest channel after the BBC) did a piece on it.
This is just snobbery. If you go back to 1910 or 1890 the majority of Englishmen would not have been members of the gentry. Some young men are uncouth yobs, many are not. The tendency to write off anyone who is a little bit rough or unrefined as scum is the worst kind of class prejudice.
aengus on November 13, 2010 at 10:04 PM
True. But I’m talking about real experience, based on conversations with fellow Brits, of all classes, at home and abroad. They have a very high opinion of themselves (smug, I call it) based on very little, or , at best, a reality 50 years gone.
Fortunata on November 13, 2010 at 10:13 PM
Fine. Just allow only the head and neck to board the plane.
Yoop on November 13, 2010 at 10:23 PM
Sin of pride. It’s not pretty, but there’s a lot of it going around.
aengus on November 13, 2010 at 10:23 PM
Of course the Muslims protested Remembrance Day, they fought with the Nazi against the British forces. If those protesting students, if that’s who they really are, stayed awake in class long enough they might learn a little of their history.
Kissmygrits on November 14, 2010 at 8:55 AM
“Never be separated from the Americans.” WC
Too bad we did not reciprocate.
faol on November 14, 2010 at 9:58 AM
Of course the Muslims protested Remembrance Day, they fought with the Nazi against the British forces.
–Now hold on. Not all (or even most) British Muslims “protested” Remembrance Day or Remembrance Sunday. Following the march past at the Bristol city centre cenotaph one of the keynote prayer leaders was an imam. The second was a rabbi, the third an Anglican minister. And wonder of wonders they all paid tribute to the right side.
While it is true that National Socialism and Japanese “pan-Asian cooperation” appealed to some circles in the Balkans, the Middle East and elsewhere, more Muslim soldiers served alongside Allied forces than against (note the number of Muslim troops among Free French forces and British Indian divisions).
Just my two pence.
Grunchy Cranola on November 14, 2010 at 12:17 PM
It’s unlikely that any of the protesters fought alongside the Nazis. Very few of the resident population of Great Britain did.
audiculous on November 14, 2010 at 1:14 PM
Mein Kampf is a best seller in Bangladesh, Pakistan, in Egypt, among the Palestinians, and in Turkey.
“It makes up a big part of our success, especially among the 18 to 25 crowd,” said Mahmud Abdallah of the Syrian-Egyptian Dar al-Kitab al-Arabi publishing house.
“The Führer Cult: Germans Cringe at Hitler’s Popularity in Pakistan,” by Hasnain Kazim in Spiegel, March 17, 2010.
sharrukin on November 14, 2010 at 3:18 PM
Mein Kampf is a best seller in Bangladesh, Pakistan, in Egypt, among the Palestinians, and in Turkey.
–That in and of itself is not what is disconcerting. It is an influential document of great (infamous) historical significance – and, oddly enough, a fairly dull read. It is also a best-seller in India, and is available in almost any community library in the United States. I’d be surprised if most Israeli universities didn’t have multiple copies translated into Hebrew.
What is disconcerting is that in at least three of two of those countries – Egypt and Palestine – government and/or the powers-that-be restrict publications which would refute so much of Mein Kampf’s sophistry, bigotry and facile reasoning.
Grunchy Cranola on November 14, 2010 at 3:53 PM
Well, let’s be honest. We all know how Muslims feel towards Jews so its somewhat foolish to think that popular interest in those nations is in any way related to the academic interest it might find in the west.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is also given credence by many of those nations. A mini-series was aired in both Egypt and Syria based on the Protocols and it is part of the school curriculum in Saudi Arabia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
The exception to this is the Middle East, where a large number of Arab and Muslim regimes and leaders have endorsed them as authentic, including endorsements of The Protocols from Presidents Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat of Egypt, one of the President Arifs of Iraq, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, and Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi of Libya. The 1988 charter of Hamas, a Palestinian Islamist group, states that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion embodies the plan of the Zionists.[68] Recent endorsements in the 21st century have been made by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Ekrima Sa’id Sabri, and the education ministry of Saudi Arabia.
sharrukin on November 14, 2010 at 4:07 PM
sharrukin
What relavamce does the reading list of Bengalis , Pakistanis, or Egyptians have in this case? What does reading books prove as to whether the British fools protesting Remembrance Day would be the same people who fought with the Germans in WWII?
audiculous on November 14, 2010 at 4:12 PM
That is where the Muslims community originates from and they certainly didn’t learn that burning poppies was appropriate behavior from the native British did they?
Those who have contempt for the men who fought Adolf Hitler and who come from a community that despises Jews might just be fine with old Adolf. There is nothing in their behavior that would suggest otherwise.
sharrukin on November 14, 2010 at 4:25 PM
sharrukin,
The Muslim community didn’t “originate” in Pakistan and Bangalidesh, during WWII those folks stood with the Empire,and being anti-Semitic is NOT the same as being pro-Nazi. Both Poland and the USSR opposed the Nazis and the populations of those countries contained populations equally or more anti-Semitic than were the populations that you cite.
audiculous on November 14, 2010 at 4:51 PM
We all know how Muslims feel towards Jews…
–Some, yes. But there are a lot of Muslims who could care less about Jews, Judaism, and/or Israel generally, and others who find anti-Semitic obsessions tedious. People sometimes lose sight of that.
… so its somewhat foolish to think that popular interest in those nations is in any way related to the academic interest it might find in the west.
–Maybe. I think we can agree that “best-seller” listss in several of the countries cited earlier are greatly affected by state censorship or, on the other hand, subsidy. In which case popular literary curiosities may be severely curtailed by party or royal diktat.
If the fascination with Mein Kampf is simply a byproduct of Muslim bigotry towards Jews – and that is probably a contributing factor to readership in the Arab world, amongst other places – what explains the apparent interest of millions of Hindus in the book? Or are you suggesting that most/all of the people buying copies in India are Muslim too? I can’t help thinking there is more to it than that.
That is where the Muslims community originates from and they certainly didn’t learn that burning poppies was appropriate behavior from the native British did they?
–Can’t really say one way or the other. It’s not particularly imaginitive, is it? But then you can’t find the next Oswald Mosley just anywhere, least of all in Finsbury for Christ’s sake.
From what’s available about this Hyde Park Hoopla, these fetching lads are native enough – born and bred here. They seem to have embraced the very English tradition of rioting every now and again over one damn fool thing or another (like a football match, or 30-odd clowns burning poppies, or student loans).
PS thanks for ignoring a couple of typos in my last post!
Grunchy Cranola on November 14, 2010 at 6:43 PM
Well the same point can be made about Hitler’s Germany. Not all Germans cared about the Jews, but that doesn’t really change the group dynamic.
I imagine a great number of them are, but Hindu Nationalists who have cast the hairy eyeball at Christians and Muslims and have carried out a few massacres as well may have some warm feelings for Hitler.
Cute, but Mosley wasn’t exactly loved in his own country now was he? Hitler was loved in Germany and now in many places throughout the mideast.
Wearing jeans or speaking the native language does not make you a native. I can put on traditional Muslim garb and learn impeccable Arabic, but that doesn’t mean I am not a member of the west and its traditions. My children can be born and bred there but they too will learn their concepts of right and wrong from me and my community unless I am alone in that place.
I hate Nazi’s of all sorts, but there is a special place in Hell for spelling Nazi’s.
sharrukin on November 14, 2010 at 7:01 PM
Wearing jeans or speaking the native language does not make you a native. I can put on traditional Muslim garb and learn impeccable Arabic, but that doesn’t mean I am not a member of the west and its traditions.
So if your grandparents came from Minsk, you’re not a real American?
audiculous on November 14, 2010 at 7:10 PM
At first I thought that was Grunchy Cranola responding, and wondered why he had suddenly become an idiot.
Then I saw it was you.
sharrukin on November 14, 2010 at 7:19 PM
sharrukin
How many letters in the name did it take before you caught on?
audiculous on November 14, 2010 at 7:35 PM
But that doesn’t really affect the shallowness of the reasoning in your statement.
It pretty much is a reflection of a failure to internalize or espouse “Western traditions” that you have offered up.
audiculous on November 14, 2010 at 7:39 PM
Well the same point can be made about Hitler’s Germany. Not all Germans cared about the Jews, but that doesn’t really change the group dynamic.
–The “group dynamic” here, be it just British Muslims or Muslims generally, is rather more diffuse than a comparatively homogeneous German nation suffering under the auspices of the National Socialists. Your ‘average’ British Muslim of Albanian, Indian or Nigerian extraction does not reserve the vitriol towards Israel that your common-garden Gazan, through his own choosing or on pain of punishment by others, does.
Hindu Nationalists who have cast the hairy eyeball at Christians and Muslims and have carried out a few massacres as well may have some warm feelings for Hitler.
–Undoubtedly. As well among the Hindus are the genuinely curious who wonder what all the fuss is about with this particular text; anti-colonialists who hold anything that hassled the British in high esteem until then find out how shoddy the finished product is; those who want to understand the strange confluence of several pseudo-subcontinental cultural artifacts within the National Socialist movement (the swastika, the Aryans, etc.); and, perhaps most bizarrely, commerce students taking the book as an example of how one guy could make the ‘big time.’
Cute, but Mosley wasn’t exactly loved in his own country now was he?
–He was slightly less reviled than Anjem Choudary, which is saying something.
Wearing jeans or speaking the native language does not make you a native.
–Many British Muslims have a great deal of trouble with both, and yet they are happy citizens who think of themselves as British and have no desire to change that.
Grunchy Cranola on November 14, 2010 at 8:44 PM