Beyond belief: Koran-burning called off — in exchange for moving Ground Zero mosque; Update: No deal? Update: Fred Phelps now planning to burn the Koran instead; Update: We’re not here to barter, says Rauf

posted at 5:32 pm on September 9, 2010 by Allahpundit

This otherwise slow news day sure turned interesting in a hurry, huh?

The pastor planning to burn Qurans on the Sept. 11 anniversary said Thursday that he plans to call off the event if the Muslim group seeking to build a mosque near the World Trade Center site agrees to move the project.

“We would consider that a sign from God,” the Rev. Terry Jones told reporters.

It was unclear whether such a commitment from the Muslim group was forthcoming, though some reports said Jones and the leader of the mosque project had spoken earlier Thursday.

“I have his word that he will move the mosque to a different location,” Jones said.

He says he’s on his way to NYC to meet with “officials” behind Park51. Whether that means Feisal Rauf or the owners of the property is unclear, but just as I’m writing this, news is breaking that Rauf says there’s no deal at all. Maybe there’s a split inside the Park51 leadership? Or is this mega-clusterfark about to go super-mega?

Stand by for updates, needless to say, but two thoughts while we wait. One: How can Rauf sign off on moving the mosque when he said just last night that jihadis would freak out if they did so? Maybe the thinking is that Jones’s concession on burning the Koran is enough to placate them? Two: Is this a fair trade — one First Amendment exercise in exchange for another? The two aren’t perfectly symmetrical, as I explained yesterday.

Update: Here’s Jones claiming that it was the imam, i.e. Rauf, who agreed to move the mosque. But, as noted above, Rauf is reportedly claiming that he made no such deal. Looks like we’re in super-mega territory after all. Click the image to watch.

Update: Turns out Rauf wasn’t the imam he spoke to, it was another imam. What could go wrong?

Jones said Imam Muhammad Musri of the Islamic Society of Central Florida told him that officials would guarantee that the mosque would be moved.

“I asked him three times, and I have witnesses,” Jones said. “If it’s not moved, then I think Islam is a very poor example of religion. I think that would be very pitiful. I do not expect that.”

Update: Now that we’ve officially got a Category 5 super-mega media clusterfark on our hands, Donald Trump wants in on the action: Here’s a story about him offering to buy the Park51 space at 25 percent above cost in order to end this “serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation.” (Remember, the principal owner told the AP yesterday that he didn’t care what happened to the property so long as he made a buck on it.) All we need now for this story to achieve pure PR nirvana is for the “Jersey Shore” cast to somehow get involved.

Update: As quickly as it was offered, Trump’s bid is rejected. The lawyer for Park51’s lawyer calls it “just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight.”

Update: My goodness — it’s the media storm of the century!

Westboro Baptist Church, the small Topeka, Kan., church that pickets funerals of American soldiers to spread its message that God is punishing the country for being tolerant of homosexuals, has vowed to hold a Quran burning if Gainesville’s Dove World Outreach Center calls its off.

“WBC burned the Koran once – and if you sissy brats of Doomed america bully Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center until they change their plans to burn that blasphemous tripe called the Koran, then WBC will burn it (again), to clearly show you some things,” the church announced in a news release this week.

What I think will happen here is that Jones will go to New York, Rauf will agree to meet with him in the interest of “dialogue” and reducing tensions, and the interfaith meeting of the minds will convince Jones not to go ahead with the book-burning. But will there be any sort of concession vis-a-vis the GZM?

Update: Mediaite speculates that this is all a clever ruse concocted by Jones to pressure the Park51 group into moving the mosque, which he’ll then happily take credit for. Just one problem with that theory, though — namely, Imam al-Masri. He appeared with Jones at the presser and claims to have spoken with Rauf’s wife, Daisy Khan, about moving the mosque. Is he in on the ruse too?

Here’s Rauf’s official statement, by the way:

“I am glad that Pastor Jones has decided not to burn any Korans,” Rauf said. “However, I have not spoken with Pastor Jones or Imam Musri. I am surprised by their announcement.”

“We are not going to toy with our religion or any other. Nor are we here to barter. We are here to extend our hand to build peace and harmony,” he said.

Maybe he hasn’t spoken to his wife yet?

Update: As expected, the administration made a personal appeal to Jones to stand down. The lucky cabinet member to whom the phone call was tasked? Bob Gates, who reiterated the point about not endangering the troops. No word on what Jones’s response was.


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Americans clearly cannot be trusted to own the “holy koran”:
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=13129871
http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2010/09/09/news/18local_09-09-10.txt

We should simply make it illegal for infidels to own a koran, because we cannot be trusted with the awesome responsibility of owning one.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 11:05 AM

Well, I do not mean that it is your responsibility. I am merely pointing out the irony in that, despite the responsibility of the people in question, it is a contributing factor. It is difficult to put into words.

In any event, I do not wish to split hairs upon it, so I will simply bow out, as this matter is causing more internal strife than I care to witness. The nation’s divided enough without this being tacked on, and it’s making my head throb something fierce. Too much hot blood, myself included. X_X

_(._.)_ Thank you for your understanding about my reply.

KinleyArdal on September 9, 2010 at 8:36 PM

I think I understand. This is a difficult discussion. And the more insane it gets, the less I’m against this burning. I still think it’s wrong and not at all the right way to go, but it’s a right that should be defended. If anyone tries to take it away, that’s significantly worse.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:09 AM

That’s the hardest part.

Key West Reader on September 9, 2010 at 8:40 PM

Always is.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:15 AM

If you transcribe words from mein koran onto a blank piece of paper, that paper thereby becomes as sacred as the original koran.

Rioting begins at 11.

slickwillie2001 on September 10, 2010 at 11:22 AM

Islam specifically calls for war upon the whole world until everything and everyone is under sharia law. Islam declared war the moment it was made up by the bloodthirsty madman named mohammad.

And yet, not all believe this is true. So maybe instead of fighting Islam in general we should just be fighting these specific portions of it and see victory when Muslims force a change here and decide not to take those portions literally.

If we do that, we’ll only offend those who want to kill us and will be able to use those who view Islam moderately as our allies.

In your opinion, judging from a lot of comments here, this act has indeed shown islam in the proper light – a very poor one.

It’s shown that portion of Islam in its proper light.

You mean, like this?

Rebar on September 9, 2010 at 8:43 PM

If that’s what you want, but you’re certainly not thinking of unintended consequences.

Whereas Religion is defined as an institution dedicated to improving social conscience and promoting individual and societal spiritual growth in a way that is harmless to others not participating in or practicing the same;

Do you realize how liberals view Christianity? We call homosexuality a sin, which to them means we’re not improving social conscience. In fact, we’re harming gays and causing high suicide rates. Same with women who have abortions or those who are promiscuous or who don’t want to get married.

Just in your first paragraph, there’s a way made to silence Christians as well.

Whereas Islam preaches that it and it alone is the true religion and that Islam will dominate the world and supplant all other religions and democratic institutions;

Christianity teaches the same.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There’s a reason many Jews thought Jesus was going to overthrow the Rome. But that’s only if you take the verse literally.

So go for it, try and get Islam banned and see how that works out. See how taking away everyone’s First Amendment right will work.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:25 AM

Every religion believes it is the only true religion. Islam is the only religion that currently acts violently upon that claim.

Monkeytoe on September 10, 2010 at 11:28 AM

If we burned both, would it cause any danger to anyone at all?

Or is that only a danger when it’s Korans being burned?

didymus on September 9, 2010 at 8:46 PM

You know the answer to that, but it’s not relevant to my point. Someone could put a gun to my head and say don’t eat horse poo. Doesn’t make eating horse poo any more attractive.

We’re not living under a theocracy. At best, Muslims offend us and get protected from offense. That’s wrong, but it doesn’t make us under their rule. We still follow our own religions. Still dress however we want and eat whatever we want. And we’re still over in Afghanistan and Iraq kicking their @sses. We are still in charge.

This is them, unleashed. The world can’t handle seeing the US unleashed.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:28 AM

Let’s remember back in 2007.
And remember what muslims did to St Joseph’s tomb.

Muslims are lucky Christians usually turn the other cheek.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:32 AM

Every religion believes it is the only true religion. Islam is the only religion that currently acts violently upon that claim.

Monkeytoe on September 10, 2010 at 11:28 AM

Muslims are the only ones, and yes, that’s true now. It wasn’t always true. I’m not saying this for moral equivalency but just because I don’t believe Islam must always be like this. Christianity had the Inquisition. That was established just over 600 years ago and was only disbanded less than 300 years ago.

Christianity has a 600 year head start on Islam. Maybe we’re seeing the peak of its monstrosity. Maybe this is a turning point.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:33 AM

Muslims are lucky Christians usually turn the other cheek.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:32 AM

And they are also lucky that the Jews are as judicious as they are.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:34 AM

Maybe we’re seeing the peak of its monstrosity. Maybe this is a turning point.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:33 AM

LOL! That is truly funny!
Give ’em another 1000 yrs & maybe by that time enough of them will have converted to a true religion of peace that we won’t have to worry about this carnage anymore.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:36 AM

But that’s only if you take the verse literally.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:25 AM

I know it’s ridiculous to try & ban islam bcs you can’t. Just like you can’t ban Wicca or satanism.
And I’ve never met a muslim I didn’t like, but then again, think about taquiyya & abrogation for a minute & you’ll understand then where all the ‘moderate’ muslims come from.
They don’t exist.
They’ve always got their fists clenched behind their back, fingers crossed, so to speak, when they deal with infidels.
And I know there are muslims who don’t truly understand what is written in the Koran etc & they may foolishly believe in the nice parts of it, & gloss over the bad parts.
Abrogation, baby.
Abrogation.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM

“Taking the koran literally” is a core belief of islam. Good luck ever changing that.

If you look at the evolution of islam over only the last thirty years, it is in the wrong direction. Look at pictures and descriptions of life in the sixties and seventies in muslim countries like Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, etc, etc. In ALL cases they have become much more radical. I don’t see that trend reversing.

Hoping for some kind of reformation or moderation in popular islam is foolish.

slickwillie2001 on September 10, 2010 at 11:46 AM

LOL! That is truly funny!
Give ‘em another 1000 yrs & maybe by that time enough of them will have converted to a true religion of peace that we won’t have to worry about this carnage anymore.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:36 AM

People could have said the same of Christianity when it was 1400 years old.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:51 AM

In response to Gen David Petraeus’ denunciation of Florida pastor Terry Jones’ right to engage in a symbolic protest of the 9/11 attacks by burning copies of the Quran this Sept. 11, President Obama said: “Let me be clear: As a citizen, and as president, I believe that members of the Dove World Outreach Center have the same right to freedom of speech and religion as anyone else in this country.”

Gov. Charlie Crist of Florida lauded Obama’s remarks, saying America is “a place where you’re supposed to be able to practice your religion without the government telling you you can’t.”

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg called Obama’s words a “clarion defense of the freedom of religion” — and also claimed that he had recently run into a filthy jihadist who actually supported the Quran-burning!

Keith Olbermann read the poem “First they came …” on air in defense of the Quran-burners, nearly bringing himself to tears at his own profundity.

No wait, my mistake. This is what liberals said about the ground zero mosque only five minutes ago when they were posing as First Amendment absolutists. Suddenly, they’ve developed amnesia when it comes to the free-speech right to burn a Quran.

J_Crater on September 10, 2010 at 11:52 AM

And I know there are muslims who don’t truly understand what is written in the Koran etc & they may foolishly believe in the nice parts of it, & gloss over the bad parts.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM

And? Does it matter? Spirituality and God exist with or without man, but religions are creations of man and as such can be changed by man for good or evil.

Obviously this can’t happen unless the peaceful Muslims take a hard look inward at their own book, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:58 AM

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:25 AM

All I can say, is you are awesomely ignorant of even the most basic tenets of islamic ideology.

Start here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html

The more you learn about islam, the more you will realize it’s not a religion – it’s a dark ages proto-fascist ideology made up by one of history’s greatest criminals to justify his insanity.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 12:15 PM

All I can say, is you are awesomely ignorant of even the most basic tenets of islamic ideology.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 12:15 PM

And all I can say is that you are awesomely ignorant of what makes this country great, and I hope you fail in destroying it.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 12:20 PM

Not that we need to throw any more fuel onto the already raging interno, but here’s a video of an Orthodox Church in Kosovo being ransacked and then burned.

Just another demonstration of those peaceful/tolerant muslims.

I think what Muslims don’t know, but need to taught is that America is NOT Europe.

Did some research on the Gadsden Flag last night and found this:

I observed on one of the drums belonging to the marines now raising, there was painted a Rattle-Snake, with this modest motto under it, ‘Don’t tread on me.’ As I know it is the custom to have some device on the arms of every country, I supposed this may have been intended for the arms of America.”

This anonymous writer, having “nothing to do with public affairs” and “in order to divert an idle hour,” speculated on why a snake might be chosen as a symbol for America.

First, it occurred to him that “the Rattle-Snake is found in no other quarter of the world besides America.”

The rattlesnake also has sharp eyes, and “may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance.” Furthermore,

“She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage. … she never wounds ’till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her.”

Finally,

“I confess I was wholly at a loss what to make of the rattles, ’till I went back and counted them and found them just thirteen, exactly the number of the Colonies united in America; and I recollected too that this was the only part of the Snake which increased in numbers. …

“‘Tis curious and amazing to observe how distinct and independent of each other the rattles of this animal are, and yet how firmly they are united together, so as never to be separated but by breaking them to pieces. One of those rattles singly, is incapable of producing sound, but the ringing of thirteen together, is sufficient to alarm the boldest man living.”

Benjamin Franklin, portrait by David Martin, 1767. White House Historical Association.

Many scholars now agree that this “American Guesser” was Benjamin Franklin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWCF6JFYzuo

SoldiersMom on September 10, 2010 at 12:22 PM

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 11:58 AM

I pray for my enemies, but seriously, do you really feel safe when you’ve got muslims all around you who are allowed, by the tenets of their own religion, to lie & make false contracts with you, as an unbeliever?
I may love my neighbor, but in the end, it’s us versus them.
Bcs that’s how they look at it eventually.
And you can dredge up the Inquisition & the Crusades all you want, but it does not change the words in the Koran.
Go read it yourself.
Spirituality is a feeling that man kind has in him.
God according to some may or may not exist.
I could give a rip about the differences in this religion or that, or what they may have done 1000 yrs ago if they’re not doing it anymore now.
There are things that some religions do I can’t abide by.
Islam is not just a religion. It encompasses politics, too.
And it is violently intolerant of all other religions on this planet.
They want to kill you & I. Their book is telling them to do it.
The ‘peaceful’ parts are cancelled out by abrogation.
Do you not understand any of this?
They want to destroy us all.
Esthier-it is IMHO that you are really naive, ignorant (either willfully or truly just obtuse about it) or just plain careless in your attitude about islam.
Bcs of other countries trading weapons with them (yes including us) muslims have gained access to technology they would never have developed for themselves.
They are now using it to kill us.
And you can hide in the sand & think bcs you live in this great & free country that it won’t be a problem for you, but what about those people who lost a loved one on 9/11 due to these savages?
Not all muslims are like that true.
But they are complicit in this savagery in the millions across this planet.
And religion or not, these mosques & front groups need to be brutually purged whne found they have the slightest ties to places like Iran etc.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 12:32 PM

And all I can say is that you are awesomely ignorant of what makes this country great, and I hope you fail in destroying it.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 12:20 PM

I’m destroying America, by banning an ideology that has as it’s express goal – the destruction of America?

I’ll leave you with a quote:

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM

woops:

[a] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.

-Thomas Jefferson

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 12:34 PM

There’s some stuff in the New Testament that seems sorta violent to me:

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

” 49 I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism* to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father* against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:49-53

Jimbo3 on September 10, 2010 at 12:52 PM

I pray for my enemies, but seriously, do you really feel safe when you’ve got muslims all around you who are allowed, by the tenets of their own religion, to lie & make false contracts with you, as an unbeliever?

I don’t make contracts on someone’s word alone. Do you? I don’t care if someone is lying. When they sign on the dotted line, I can take them to court over it, with three times the cost as damages.

I may love my neighbor, but in the end, it’s us versus them.
Bcs that’s how they look at it eventually.

Not all of them. So for those who don’t look at it that way, you’re the one starting something when nothing was there.

And you can dredge up the Inquisition & the Crusades all you want, but it does not change the words in the Koran.
Go read it yourself.

I have. I know it’s easy to pretend everyone else is ignorant of Islam, but it’s just not true.

But that was also my point with the Inquisition, which was a bit more powerful than some @ssholes in a cave. They used what most of us consider innocuous words in the Bible and still made them dangerous.

So the actual words don’t matter. It’s our interpretations that make the difference.

God according to some may or may not exist.

God exists regardless of the person you ask. We didn’t create him. He created us. Some refuse to acknowledge that, but it doesn’t make them right.

They want to destroy us all.

Not all of them. Not all of them. That’s really my point in a nutshell. Not all of them want to do these things, as you already admitted earlier. Why do you want to ignore those people? What’s so worthless about them?

Esthier-it is IMHO that you are really naive, ignorant (either willfully or truly just obtuse about it) or just plain careless in your attitude about islam.

I realize this, but I don’t find your comments any more enlightened. You contradict yourself. You accept that we can’t ban Islam and that not all Muslims are bad. In fact, you say you’ve never met a bad one.

How then can you argue that we need to take on all of them? What’s to be gained in that?

I’m not talking about ignoring the murderers. I’m not even talking about ignoring their supporters. I’m just talking about not ignoring the ones you even admit you’ve liked. And since you admit that Islam can’t be banned, then you’re not actually proposing anything different from me.

And you can hide in the sand & think bcs you live in this great & free country that it won’t be a problem for you, but what about those people who lost a loved one on 9/11 due to these savages?

Never said that. Not even once. I know what happened, which is why I think it’s disgusting that someone would use tomorrow as a political stunt.

I’m not afraid of the terrorists, but I’m not ignoring their either. They need to be put down like animals.

Just them though. Not all Muslims.

Not all muslims are like that true.
But they are complicit in this savagery in the millions across this planet.

No more than Christians were during the Inquisition. Some tried to stop it, as some try to stop the bloodshed now. Forget those people if you want, but if you admit that we can’t ban Islam, you’re also admitting that we have to learn to live with them.

Hard to do if you see all Muslims as your enemies.

And religion or not, these mosques & front groups need to be brutually purged whne found they have the slightest ties to places like Iran etc.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 12:32 PM

I have never disagreed with this. Never.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 12:59 PM

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 12:34 PM

Considering that your proposal would see the removal of freedom from American citizens, Jefferson would certainly not agree with you.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:08 PM

Jimbo3 on September 10, 2010 at 12:52 PM

Those are technically the same as the four Gospels tell the same story just from different perspectives. That said, if taken literally, that verse is violence and could be used by someone to justify violence.

If taken literally.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:10 PM

Considering that your proposal would see the removal of freedom from American citizens, Jefferson would certainly not agree with you.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:08 PM

If Jefferson saw the progress of creeping sharia law, 9/11, and the islamic violence since – he’d be with on board with banning islam with a constitutional amendment.

The freedom to oppress is not a freedom granted to American citizens, and islam is oppression no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:14 PM

If Jefferson saw the progress of creeping sharia law, 9/11, and the islamic violence since – he’d be with on board with banning islam with a constitutional amendment.

The freedom to oppress is not a freedom granted to American citizens, and islam is oppression no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:14 PM

You really need to do alot more research before I’ll listen to you. You do understand, don’t you, that many Moslem countries have secular laws, not Sharia laws and that, even in many countries with Sharia laws, it’s generally not taken to the extremes you think.

Jimbo3 on September 10, 2010 at 1:20 PM

If Jefferson saw the progress of creeping sharia law, 9/11, and the islamic violence since – he’d be with on board with banning islam with a constitutional amendment.

Yes, your amendment that would also see Christianity and most religions banned. Good luck with that. Jefferson would not have given that the time of day.

The freedom to oppress is not a freedom granted to American citizens, and islam is oppression no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:14 PM

People are allowed to oppress themselves. Making it illegal to practice your faith within the confines of the law is blatantly unconstitutional and the very antithesis of the ideals that are the basis for this country’s founding.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 12:59 PM

I admire your resolve (to not sound like a racist, etc..), but I agree with Badger. If muslims were digging a hole in the ground to put you in it and stone you, not ONE muslim would intercede on your behalf. Simply, because you are NOT one of them. As sad as they may feel for your plight, they will not lift a finger against a fellow muslim to help YOU. That, my friend is what we are fighting. They don’t stand up for their own selves (in their own countries where stoning and hanging is routine), do you really think they care about you?

Califemme on September 10, 2010 at 1:26 PM

Yes, your amendment that would also see Christianity and most religions banned. Good luck with that. Jefferson would not have given that the time of day.

What nonsense, that American elected representatives of a overwhelmingly Christian nation would somehow ban Christianity, or any other peaceful religion, during a constitutional convention, is too dumb for words.

People are allowed to oppress themselves. Making it illegal to practice your faith within the confines of the law is blatantly unconstitutional and the very antithesis of the ideals that are the basis for this country’s founding.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM

The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If your so-called “faith” calls for overturning the Constitution itself to be replaced with fascist sharia law where slavery is allowed, women are treated as chattel property, girls as young as nine years old can be raped, and infidels subjected to second-citizen status – it is no longer a faith, it is a hostile political ideology and should be treated as such.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:31 PM

Califemme on September 10, 2010 at 1:26 PM

Muslims do try and stand up for each other when something like that occurs. That’s why we know about these stonings in the first place. And some have been prevented due to public pressure.

That said, my refusal to see all Muslims as the enemy has nothing to do with what they think of me. My refusal to outlaw Islam in America has nothing to do with its followers think of me.

I don’t care that people look at me and think I’m not a racist. The ones who would think that already do. I don’t support the mosque, and I do support both wars and everything we can do to stop terrorists.

Believe it or not, I think America’s ideals are worth preserving. That’s all that’s guiding me here.

I care that women are stoned in Islam, because it hurts me as a free person to see what those women have to go through. I’m only 28. I’ve never felt like a second class citizen as a woman. The fight was won by others before me and required nothing from me. I’ve been given much and generally when someone is given much, much is expected. I’d rather women in this country like me, used their freedom to help those who cannot help themselves. When women are stoned in Muslim countries, Muslims aren’t the only ones turning a blind eye.

All of us here at fortunate. Surely there’s something we could do.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:37 PM

What nonsense, that American elected representatives of a overwhelmingly Christian nation would somehow ban Christianity, or any other peaceful religion, during a constitutional convention, is too dumb for words.

Sure, so long as we’re in the majority this is true, but you have no assurances that it will stay that way. In fact, the biggest scare for Christians in the gay marriage debate is how it will be used to silence us.

Where do you stand on that one? Think the fears are unjustified?

The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Certainly, so let’s not restrict our own freedoms. That is suicidal. It requires way too much faith in the government.

If your so-called “faith” calls for overturning the Constitution itself to be replaced with fascist sharia law where slavery is allowed, women are treated as chattel property, girls as young as nine years old can be raped, and infidels subjected to second-citizen status – it is no longer a faith, it is a hostile political ideology and should be treated as such.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:31 PM

We don’t punish people for thoughts but rather for their actions. Isn’t this why most people here are against Hate Crimes? Or do you support them?

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Sure, so long as we’re in the majority this is true, but you have no assurances that it will stay that way.

If America became a muslem majority country, they would impose sharia on it without hesitation.

Certainly, so let’s not restrict our own freedoms. That is suicidal. It requires way too much faith in the government.

One of the few legitimate powers of the government is to protect the Constitution – banning islam, an ideology specifically calling for sharia law to replace the Constitution – would be a guarantee of freedom, not a restriction.

Isn’t this why most people here are against Hate Crimes? Or do you support them?

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Islam is a hate crime.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:55 PM

Esthier- I’ve never met a bad muslim bcs they always act really nice to your face.
Let me put this more succinctly as I have on other threads about islam.
islam is not a religion: it’s really a political ideology.
So if you are in America & you follow the Koran, you are a subversive, an enemy.
And taking an oath when becoming a US citizen means nothing if you are an active ‘relgious’ muslim.
It is really the only ‘religion’ as far as I know that is bent on destroying all others so viciously & unapologetically.
The muslims that are here running the mosques etc are telling us they want to overthrow our govt.
Communists preached the same thing & they should have been hunted down as enemies & deported or arrested as treasonous elements.
islam followers are guilty of treason in this country bcs their ideology commands them to overthrow the govt & establish their own.
I didn’t say I didn’t want it banned, but I know there are too many delicate people out there who keep thinking this is a religion.
It stopped being a religion when it commanded total obedience to the politics thing.
Esthier-I really enjoy your ideas sometimes. But I think you are wrong on this one & we are just going to continue to disagree.
islam should be defined in this country as a political establishment that we are at war with.
Period.
So no banning muslims, but banning their mosques bcs they are praying & working dilligently for the destruction of our representative Republic to replace it with Sharia.
That right there is grounds enough for banning them as an organization.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 2:00 PM

If America became a muslem majority country, they would impose sharia on it without hesitation.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:55 PM

Well no see Rebar, that may be technically possible in Holland or France or something. I really don’t know what their constitutions say about majorities trumping minorities’ rights.
But our Const. does not allow that.
Of course, they would impose it by overthrowing our govt & scrapping the Const. for the Koran.
The Koran is their Const. The want to replace our with theirs.
And it looks like they’re doing it in Europe so far.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 2:03 PM

it is no longer a faith, it is a hostile political ideology and should be treated as such.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:31 PM

It never has been just a ‘faith’.
It is nothing but a hostile political ideology like you described.
But magically if you ‘pray’ to something & invoke your spirituality somehow, you’re given a freedom pass to actively subvert the govt of the country you are trying to overthrow.
Let me repeat folks: islam wants to OVERTHROW western-style governments.
Everywhere they flee to, like Californians for instance, they leave the oppression bcs they hate it, but they end up establishing their own oasis of the oppression they just fled.
So the ‘moderate’ & innocent muslims that flee to freedom are not really moderate or innocent at all if they subsribe to the same set of rules that the terrorists subscribe to.
It is no difference than if you were a combatant in another country during a war or a spy there.
The spy is still responsible for death & destruction, but it is indirect.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 2:10 PM

If America became a muslem majority country, they would impose sharia on it without hesitation.

I think Badger40 said it well enough that I don’t need to add anything except that say that’s why our 1st Amendment is so important and shouldn’t be messed with. Outlawing Islam would open the door for outlawing other religions.

One of the few legitimate powers of the government is to protect the Constitution – banning islam, an ideology specifically calling for sharia law to replace the Constitution – would be a guarantee of freedom, not a restriction.

You have no faith in America if you think merely calling for Sharia is enough to destroy our Constitution. People call for things all the time that we don’t like and that go counter to our freedoms. It’s not illegal. The KKK can parade as much as they want and call for segregation or whatever, as much as they want. That’s not breaking the law, and it’s not harming our freedoms.

Islam is a hate crime.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 1:55 PM

So you support Hate Crime laws then?

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 2:43 PM

As stated long ago by Benjamin Franklin:

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. … I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

Here’s where I see this pertaining to Muslims:

I am for doing good to the poor muslims, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor muslims, is not making them easy in poverty Sharia, but leading or driving them out of it. … I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions leniencies were made for the poor muslims, the less more they provided expected for themselves Islam, and of course became poorer more militant. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer free and integrated.

I hope Ben wouldn’t mind my edit.

Califemme on September 10, 2010 at 2:47 PM

Esthier- I’ve never met a bad muslim bcs they always act really nice to your face.

Then maybe you should spend a little more time with the ones you’ve met to learn which are putting on a show and which are sincere.

And no, they certainly don’t always act nice to your face. That’s the point of this discussion. If they always acted nice, we wouldn’t have a problem.

islam is not a religion: it’s really a political ideology.

To many that’s true but not to all.

So if you are in America & you follow the Koran, you are a subversive, an enemy.

Depends on how you interpret it. Obviously plenty are able to interpret it without believing there is a call for violence. This is established fact which you keep wanting to ignore because to you, those people aren’t really following the Koran.

Regardless of what you think, they believe they are. There’s no good served in yelling at them that they aren’t. And there’s no harm in letting them follow the Koran the way they believe it should be followed. In fact, people like that who follow the Koran like that are benefits to society.

The muslims that are here running the mosques etc are telling us they want to overthrow our govt.
Communists preached the same thing & they should have been hunted down as enemies & deported or arrested as treasonous elements.

Sure, the specific Communists who were supporting the overthrow of the government should have been arrested or deported or whatever. But those who simply believe in Communism, should they have been arrested/deported etc.? Should thought be criminalized?

islam followers are guilty of treason in this country bcs their ideology commands them to overthrow the govt & establish their own.

You say that but many disagree. So why keep telling them that in order to be good Muslims they need to destroy America? That’s what the terrorists do.

I didn’t say I didn’t want it banned, but I know there are too many delicate people out there who keep thinking this is a religion.

Fine, you said it won’t be or something. So you do want it banned? You do wish we would ban it as some sort of ban on wrong thoughts?

Esthier-I really enjoy your ideas sometimes. But I think you are wrong on this one & we are just going to continue to disagree.

I can’t remember disagreeing with you before either, but I really don’t understand this debate. I’m not asking for anyone to go easy on the Muslims who want to kill us. I’m not asking for an end to Gitmo or for the mosque to stay where it is or even for the government to say that we can’t burn Korans.

I’m for freedom. That’s my argument here. That we should all be free to believe as we wish. I don’t agree with war on all Muslims. The fact that I think it’s morally wrong is actually secondary to my belief that it’s harmful to the country.

For years people here and others on the Right have been saying that we’re not against Muslims even if we have problems with aspects of Islam. People have been saying, “if only all the moderates would speak up, if only they’d change,” and now people are telling me that the moderates don’t count, because they’re really just heretics who don’t matter and that really all real Muslims are our enemies, that this is a holy war. And that freedom of religion only matters when we’re talking about Christianity, which is safe because we’re a Christian nation of course.

I’ve never hated Muslims and never will. They are not my enemies, though I take those who call themselves thus at their word.

If that means we have to agree to disagree, so be it, but I just do not understand this. I took everyone here at their word that they didn’t have a problem with Muslims. I’ve defended opposition to the mosque on such grounds.

Maybe I was wrong, at least on some here. I don’t take delight in that.

So no banning muslims, but banning their mosques bcs they are praying & working dilligently for the destruction of our representative Republic to replace it with Sharia.
That right there is grounds enough for banning them as an organization.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 2:00 PM

That’s enough for banning those Muslims who would do that and those mosques which support that. It’s baseless to be used against all Muslims.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 3:04 PM

I hope Ben wouldn’t mind my edit.

Califemme on September 10, 2010 at 2:47 PM

I don’t think he would mind it. But the spirit of that quote is that he isn’t against the poor. The spirit of your rewrite is that you aren’t against Muslims.

That’s fine with me.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 3:06 PM

I’ve got a plan to build a synagogue in Mecca….

…and it turns out that I have just as much financial and political support for my project as Rauf does for his plan!!!

landlines on September 10, 2010 at 3:09 PM

That’s enough for banning those Muslims who would do that and those mosques which support that. It’s baseless to be used against all Muslims.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 3:04 PM

Uhm.. that’s what I said. Get rid of muslims who attend mosques, which preach at overthrowing our govt.
And they all do-don’t kid yourself.
Communists who organize into a collective party with a manifesto based on getting rid of the Const & implementing another form of govt should be deported/arreseted etc.
Esthier-there’s no need to quibble over this bcs you think that islam can be interpreted differently for those ‘moderate’ muslims & I maintain it cannot without totally turning it into something else, like Christianity or Judaism.
I am sorry, but based upon abrogation & taquiyya alone, I can NEVER trust any practicing muslim.
End of story for me.
Bcs they all want their brand of sharia in the end.
So that ‘nice’ muslim neighbor is someone I have no reason to have anything to do with more than waving hi across the street (though I actually have no neighbors out here),
I also do not hang around with other groups of people who do not share my core morals.
Call be prejudice or bigoted if you want, but I’ve no reason to associate myself with people of other faiths whose faiths I deem destructive.
So while I’m not going to go & burn a koran, I’m not going to rise up & stop someone who would.
It has nothing to do with the color of their skin, or their ethnic background.
We’re talking about ideals here.
It’s for the same reason I don’t associate with people who think abortion is not murder.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 4:25 PM

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 2:43 PM

I’m sure your “tolerance” gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

But there is concrete evidence as to where that tolerance leads.

Looking at Europe, 10-15 years ago folks were saying the same exact things about not discriminating against “moderate” muslems and all that nonsense. Today, large swaths of Europe are de-facto mini islamic republics where police do not enter, that are ruled by imams according to sharia law. Any hint of resistance to islamic sensibilities are met with arrest, anything that might rile up the “youths” is suppressed. As native Europeans dwindle in numbers and muslem populations explode, in another 10-15 years entire nations: Italy, Spain, France, England, will become official islamic republics under sharia law, any Europeans left will either have to flee or submit.

That is the logical conclusion of your so-called “tolerance” – a society ruled by sharia law. We don’t even need to go as far as Europe to see the effects of creeping sharia:
Christian arrested in Dearborn
Pastor arrested in Kansas

and to bring this thread full circle, Pastor Jones being intimidated by the federal government for exercising free speech.

There is a saying in the Talmud:

Those who are kind to the cruel, in the end will be cruel to the kind

You can be kind to the muslems, but that will lead inevitably to sharia law and cruelty to the very same people who advocated for sharia, along with everyone else – including muslems trapped in this evil death cult.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 4:28 PM

And they all do-don’t kid yourself.

I’d rather have proof than your assumption.

Communists who organize into a collective party with a manifesto based on getting rid of the Const & implementing another form of govt should be deported/arreseted etc.

Yes, the qualifier is necessary with Communism and it’s necessary with Muslims. We don’t outlaw beliefs.

End of story for me.

I see that. All Muslims to you are suspect. So, in effect, if you’re nice to them to their faces, you’re pretending as well.

Call be prejudice or bigoted if you want, but I’ve no reason to associate myself with people of other faiths whose faiths I deem destructive.

I’m not calling you anything. But as a Christian, I do feel that I am called to “be all things to all people” as Paul put it, in order to reach them all. I feel I am commanded to associate with everyone who will listen.

What you do is between you and God.

So while I’m not going to go & burn a koran, I’m not going to rise up & stop someone who would.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 4:25 PM

Neither am I, and I don’t want the government at all involved in this.

But my opinion is that it shouldn’t happen, and I don’t mind saying that here.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 5:31 PM

I’m sure your “tolerance” gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

No, that’s the cape cods. There’s no better way to enjoy cranberry juice.

I’ve said already that I’m already considered a racist. If I were doing this for some PC cred, then I’d also be supporting the mosque and opposing Gitmo. Don’t you think?

Or do I have some secret plan in that, whereby I anger both sides of the debate and that somehow gives me the warm fuzzy? Nah, that’s still the cape cods.

Looking at Europe

We’re not Europe. There’s a reason we got our independence, and it’s not because we say “I’m waiting in line” instead of saying, “I’m waiting in the queue.”

You betray your lack of faith in this great country by even making the comparison. It’s truly abhorrent that you’d do so just to make a point about Islam.

Today, large swaths of Europe are de-facto mini islamic republics where police do not enter, that are ruled by imams according to sharia law.

And we have laws to prevent that. Novel concept, I know.

and to bring this thread full circle, Pastor Jones being intimidated by the federal government for exercising free speech.

Which I’m against. The man has a Constitutional right to burn the Koran, so long as you don’t try to take it away, that is.

See, I’m in favor of keeping our freedoms. You’re the one trying to take them away.

Those who are kind to the cruel, in the end will be cruel to the kind

Not all Muslims are cruel. I can be cruel to the cruel ones and kind to the kind ones. It’s a little more complicated than chewing gum and walking but not by that much. With practice, it gets a little easier.

You can be kind to the muslems, but that will lead inevitably to sharia law and cruelty to the very same people who advocated for sharia, along with everyone else – including muslems trapped in this evil death cult.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 4:28 PM

No, so long as we preserve our freedoms, we prevent this. If we follow your path and decide that the majority should decide what is and what isn’t allowed, then yes, Sharia will be a reality.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 5:39 PM

I see that. All Muslims to you are suspect. So, in effect, if you’re nice to them to their faces, you’re pretending as well.

Call be prejudice or bigoted if you want, but I’ve no reason to associate myself with people of other faiths whose faiths I deem destructive.
I’m not calling you anything. But as a Christian, I do feel that I am called to “be all things to all people” as Paul put it, in order to reach them all. I feel I am commanded to associate with everyone who will listen.

What you do is between you and God.

So while I’m not going to go & burn a koran, I’m not going to rise up & stop someone who would.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 4:25 PM
Neither am I, and I don’t want the government at all involved in this.

But my opinion is that it shouldn’t happen, and I don’t mind saying that here.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 5:31 PM

LOL! I’m nice to people I really hate Esthier. It’s called common courtesy. I can have conversations with my enemies.
I have no proble in helping people find the right path for themselves by being available for fellowship.
But ‘m not interested in immersing myself in the multicultural relationships that undermine my own morality.
If you surround yourself with evil, that is what you may soon become.
I do want the govt involved in prohibiting facist organizations from taking over our country through subverting our rule of law.
And if that is a religion that is doing it, then I guess we need get rid of them if we would like to preserve our way of life as a free Republic.
And no-sorry. I don’t trust anyone who states the koran is the rule of law that they live by.
And yes. I am pretending that I can stand them when they talk about it to my face.
It is only when I get fed up with them & want them out of my face that I will tell a person their beliefs are evil.
Why do that when it won’t change anything in that person?
So I can be ‘friendly’ with a muslim in the same way I can be ‘friendly’ with some of the posters here at HA.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 5:40 PM

And Esthier- no one has the ‘freedom’ in this country to actively support the overthrow of this Const. govt.
We have a right and duty to protect ourselves from those threats.
islam is not really a religion as I have said before.
it is nothing but a cruel political ideology bent on world domination through force & death.
Hitler was nice to Eva Braun & little Aryan kids. It didn’t make him any less evil.
The bombers of 9/11 were probably nice to their neighbors, too.
Sorry.
I will always be suspect of a group of people who worship the cult of death.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 5:44 PM

You betray your lack of faith in this great country by even making the comparison. It’s truly abhorrent that you’d do so just to make a point about Islam.

We treat the muslems the same way as the Europeans, a special minority that we need to tiptoe on eggshells and appease, it is “anti-American” to expect the same result?

And we have laws to prevent that. Novel concept, I know.

They had laws too, didn’t save the Europeans, won’t save us.

Not all Muslims are cruel.

Islam is cruel, anyone who subscribes to that ideology is adhering to evil, regardless of their actions. Plenty of Nazis weren’t cruel, Nazism still needed to be defeated, same with Japanese emperor-worship. Not all muslems in Europe are cruel, doesn’t change the fact that they are taking over and imposing sharia law. However many muslems not adhering to the commands of islam doesn’t change the fact that islam does indeed command, and enough follow to place Western civilization in existential danger.

No, so long as we preserve our freedoms, we prevent this. If we follow your path and decide that the majority should decide what is and what isn’t allowed, then yes, Sharia will be a reality.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 5:39 PM

Nonsense, we eliminated Nazism without losing our freedoms, same with emperor-worship. Islam simply is incompatible with Western democratic society, in fact it’s incompatible with any civilized society – everywhere islam is in contact with another, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jews, Sikhs – muslems are murdering them.

Islam 1400 years ago was recognized then as a particularly brutal and backward creed, and it’s the same death-cult today as it was over a millenium ago. It has no place in the modern world, and if it is victorious, the world will be plunged into a dark ages that we might never emerge from.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. Giving muslems the freedom to take away our freedom is, simply, insanity. They have been at war with us for 1400 years, they are winning, we cannot infect our society with the cancer of islam to prove how much “better” we are, because they will rewrite the history books so we never existed at all.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 6:19 PM

LOL! I’m nice to people I really hate Esthier. It’s called common courtesy. I can have conversations with my enemies.

I don’t see any value in hate either, but I was just going off of what you were talking about earlier in regards to Muslims who are nice to you.

And I don’t see anything served by being polite on the surface. I’d much rather someone be more honest with me. If there’s something suspect about me, just say it. Don’t pretend we’re cool when you’re secretly wondering when I’ll do something horrible. That’s why I keep my political opinions to myself in the “real” world. I know how they’re viewed and don’t need the pretense.

But ‘m not interested in immersing myself in the multicultural relationships that undermine my own morality.

We weren’t talking about you becoming a Muslim or going to a mosque.

I do want the govt involved in prohibiting facist organizations from taking over our country through subverting our rule of law.

Sure, if they can prove it. If not, I want them to stay the hell away.

And if that is a religion that is doing it, then I guess we need get rid of them if we would like to preserve our way of life as a free Republic.

I disagree that we can preserve our free Republic by banning a religion.

And no-sorry. I don’t trust anyone who states the koran is the rule of law that they live by.

You keep adding qualifiers. We’re not talking about those people.

Why do that when it won’t change anything in that person?

Yeah, calling someone evil usually won’t make them listen to you. That’s hardly surprising. Somehow Paul was able to make it work without resorting to that, even if it meant he was stoned (not by Muslims) and left for dead twice.

So I can be ‘friendly’ with a muslim in the same way I can be ‘friendly’ with some of the posters here at HA.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 5:40 PM

By that I suppose you mean the trolls?

And Esthier- no one has the ‘freedom’ in this country to actively support the overthrow of this Const. govt.

You and I agree on this. We disagree on whether or not all Muslims want this. That’s really the only thing we disagree on, the broad brush painting of all Muslims.

Conservative generally pride themselves on their reluctance to engage in identity politics and instead talk about the individual. That’s completely lost here, and I don’t see why.

islam is not really a religion as I have said before.

And without acknowledging that your point is correct, I’ve replied that it doesn’t matter, because even those who support Communism need protection from the 1st so long as they are not actively plotting harm.

You then assert that all Muslims are doing this but never bother to prove it. There is nothing enlightened about making such a blanket statement.

Hitler was nice to Eva Braun & little Aryan kids. It didn’t make him any less evil.
The bombers of 9/11 were probably nice to their neighbors, too.

You and I agree that murdering people means more than simple pleasantries. We disagree on broad brushes. That’s it.

I will always be suspect of a group of people who worship the cult of death.

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 5:44 PM

As will I. I will, however, get to know someone on a basic level before making that determination about him or her.

I do the same with people here. I expect you do the same, otherwise you would have stopped talking to me hours ago.

I’m reminded of Lot. Abraham asked God to spare the city. He begged God, “what if I can find 60 righteous men” and so on until he was down to just one, Lot. Obviously those cities were wicked, and none but Lot were righteous (and righteous in this context even meant offering your virgin daughters to a mob intent on rape), but Abraham felt it worthwhile to try, to try and find the good, even if it didn’t exist.

I see nothing Christian about not even trying. Paul, as Saul, used to stone Christians. He was a horrible and ungodly man. But he was saved, and many of us have him to thank for our faiths and for doing so much to make Christianity available to Gentiles.

Paul reached so many by becoming all things to all people. We have him to thank for cutting through the prejudices of those who came before us to present a real message of hope and restoration. None of us deserve it. But we could try and repay it by doing more than making ourselves available but by actually going out there and doing the same, embracing them as God’s creation.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 6:25 PM

We treat the muslems the same way as the Europeans, a special minority that we need to tiptoe on eggshells and appease, it is “anti-American” to expect the same result?

I didn’t call you anti-American. A Christian who is afraid that God will not save him isn’t anti-Christian.

And no, we don’t treat them the same way. We do go too far for our own morals, but we’re not Europe.

They had laws too, didn’t save the Europeans, won’t save us.

They don’t have the same laws we do. All we have to do is keep ours, and this will never happen. So far, we haven’t broken our own laws to help Muslims, especially not as a policy.

Islam is cruel, anyone who subscribes to that ideology is adhering to evil, regardless of their actions. Plenty of Nazis weren’t cruel, Nazism still needed to be defeated, same with Japanese emperor-worship. Not all muslems in Europe are cruel, doesn’t change the fact that they are taking over and imposing sharia law. However many muslems not adhering to the commands of islam doesn’t change the fact that islam does indeed command, and enough follow to place Western civilization in existential danger.

We’ve been over this. If you’re into collective guilt, then we’ll do nothing but repeat ourselves over and over again and never really gain anything from this.

I like listening to those who agree with me, but only when there’s something to be gained from it.

Nonsense, we eliminated Nazism without losing our freedoms, same with emperor-worship.

Nazism wasn’t widespread and was directly related to a government. That said, we haven’t eliminated it. There are Nazis still around today. It’s not illegal. Not illegal to read Mein Kampf and say it’s your ideology either.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. Giving muslems the freedom to take away our freedom is, simply, insanity. They have been at war with us for 1400 years, they are winning, we cannot infect our society with the cancer of islam to prove how much “better” we are, because they will rewrite the history books so we never existed at all.

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 6:19 PM

They actually haven’t been at war with us this entire time. That’s a fallacy. But people keep bringing up this 1400 years number as though it proves something.

When Christianity was 1400 years old, it was slaughtering people through the Inquisition, and it was far more powerful than Islam.

Had people then said what you’re saying now, America would be a vastly different place.

My only point is this, to both of you. I don’t judge someone based on religion or nationality or things he or she cannot control (I’m not including religion in that, though some do only take up their parents’ religion) and see no value in doing so. Individuals matter, not collectives. I thought that’s one of the reasons we fought the Soviets.

Esthier on September 10, 2010 at 6:34 PM

Rebar on September 10, 2010 at 11:05 AM

Awesome. Like the way you think :)

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on September 10, 2010 at 6:43 PM

Badger40 on September 10, 2010 at 11:40 AM

Yes, you can though. Shintoism (at least the militarist part) was banned in Japan after WWII. And if we stop looking at Islam as a “religion” (since we all know it’s not), it could no longer hide behind any protection.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on September 10, 2010 at 6:46 PM

_Crater on September 10, 2010 at 11:52 AM

Yep. One of the many things we have Pastor Jones to thank: exposing the MSM one more time as the hypocrites they are. But this time, the hypocrisy is only minutes old. It’s great to see them do a 180 on something that is still in the public’s mind.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on September 10, 2010 at 6:51 PM

For all those wanting to burn their very own copy of the Q’uran… IT’S FREE!

Califemme on September 10, 2010 at 6:59 PM

For all those wanting to burn their very own copy of the Q’uran… IT’S FREE!

Califemme on September 10, 2010 at 6:59 PM

Is the paper soft and absorbent?

slickwillie2001 on September 10, 2010 at 7:36 PM

holy crap I lost 30 IQ points reading two of Esthier’s responses to people…WTF is wrong with this person? Is that a AnninCA sock?

Inanemergencydial on September 10, 2010 at 11:00 PM

Lets not forget what the Muslims did to America on Sept. 11,2001 and not concern ourselves whether or not this Pastor burns or not burns the Quran. Remember on that fateful day all the innocent people that the Muslims burned to death. And now, not being satified for those murders,they want to build a trophy Mosque to celebrate those murders. Thank God that George W. Bush was President and Rudy was the Mayor of New York. This President would have probably bowed down to the Muslims and no telling what Bloomberg would have done. He and Obama have endorsed the building of the Mosque. Check out http://www.atlasshrugs.com- there is a Power Point presentation of that fateful day. It will bring tears to your eyes.

flintstone on September 10, 2010 at 11:31 PM

Now, Now children stop quibbling and Rev (please remove the collar). Terry Jones go stand in that corner.

Imam Rauf we want you to tell U.S. the real reason you need to place your Mosque at that particular place (you know in Monopoly that Boardwalk and Park Place are prized locations for real estate). But, in the real world the location is too close to the location of the World Trade Centers that your sect has claimed gleefully for taking out, and you wonder what all of the fuss is about. If you want to build a trophy room in Mecca and place your trophy there.

Thank you.

MSGTAS on September 11, 2010 at 10:44 AM

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