Quotes of the day
posted at 10:30 pm on September 2, 2010 by Allahpundit
The Grand Design, an extract of which appears in the Times today, sets out to contest Sir Isaac Newton’s belief that the universe must have been designed by God as it could not have been created out of chaos.
“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing,” he writes. “Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.
“It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”
***
Pursuing the prayer thread through the labyrinth of the Web, I eventually found a bizarre “Place Bets” video. This invites potential punters to put money on whether I will repudiate my atheism and embrace religion by a certain date or continue to affirm unbelief and take the hellish consequences. This isn’t, perhaps, as cheap or as nasty as it may sound. One of Christianity’s most cerebral defenders, Blaise Pascal, reduced the essentials to a wager as far back as the 17th century. Put your faith in the almighty, he proposed, and you stand to gain everything. Decline the heavenly offer and you lose everything if the coin falls the other way. (Some philosophers also call this Pascal’s Gambit.)
Ingenious though the full reasoning of his essay may be—he was one of the founders of probability theory—Pascal assumes both a cynical god and an abjectly opportunist human being. Suppose I ditch the principles I have held for a lifetime, in the hope of gaining favor at the last minute? I hope and trust that no serious person would be at all impressed by such a hucksterish choice. Meanwhile, the god who would reward cowardice and dishonesty and punish irreconcilable doubt is among the many gods in which (whom?) I do not believe. I don’t mean to be churlish about any kind intentions, but when September 20 comes, please do not trouble deaf heaven with your bootless cries. Unless, of course, it makes you feel better.
Blowback
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In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Amen.
Dash on September 3, 2010 at 10:42 AM
A good benign God, one who really cared for his puny creations well-being, one should think would create them in such a way that their existence would be as good as possible. Shouldn’t an omnipotent creator God be able to create a mankind with a happy blissful existence even without this unfortunate free will? One seldom misses what one never has known. Or did God Almighty think that the sadistic joy some find in inflicting suffering for others, is more valuable and precious than the misery and pain of their victims?
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 9:42 AM
I was taught that in the beginning, before the world was, Satan’s plan was to force everyone to be good. He thought that would be a great plan, because then everyone could be saved. God, in his wisdom, said, no- people need pain and trials and suffering occasionally to learn and grow and become wise. Everyone knows someone who has had an easy life with no problems, and they are one inch deep. Free will was instituted so that we could learn wisdom. But also being kind, God planned that we would not be left to the inevitable outcomes of sin and death, the consequences would be borne by a Savior, who is Jesus Christ. He paid the price for all our bad choices. So actually, we get the best of both- we get to gain wisdom, but do not have to suffer the eternal consequences of our stupidity while we learn. Being a parent, this makes sense to me. You have to let children make mistakes, or they end up being useless hothouse flowers.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 10:45 AM
Akzed @ 10:31
Get off your high horse.
LOOK WITHIN.
A lot of faithful Christians find truth within, rather than physically stumbling across conversion. Perhaps you have not read the treatise by Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope. But surely you remember Jesus answer regarding the greatest commandment.
Our awareness of our own heart, mind and determination directing our strength all are WITHIN, not external appendages of a person.
You bring up hearts, as if the Old and New Testaments aren’t filled with admonishments to turn your hearts to the Lord. Noah prayed in his heart, as God “repented” of his will to utterly destroy mankind.
Jesus wasn’t the first who spoke of those with hard hearts. But I always appreciated his references encouraging people to use what they have rather than be stuck with mental ears unable to hear, mental eyes unable to see.
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
maverick muse on September 3, 2010 at 11:07 AM
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 10:45 AM
You know that’s Mormonism, Joseph Smith and Mormon temple doctrine, which contrasts in substantive detail with what you’ll actually find within the Bible defined by the “Yahweh-alone” Jews.
maverick muse on September 3, 2010 at 11:20 AM
That’s what Lenin thought of the idiots who put him in power, in spite of not knowing how evil Communism would be.
OldEnglish on September 3, 2010 at 11:21 AM
So “Gravity” is the Atheists’ god????
And where did gravity come from?
landlines on September 3, 2010 at 11:21 AM
See what I mean, folks? Even after being called on his garbage, he still launches right into it…in the very same post.
SauerKraut, no one is going to be “de”converted on this Hot Air thread. It didn’t work the last time you mentioned the “meat suit”, and it’s not going to work now.
Why don’t you spend the weekend with your wife and kids instead of trying to deconvert Hot Air readers? I’ll tell you this: if I thought this life was all I had, you best believe I’d be with my children rather than spouting off an online forum all weekend long, like you did last month.
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM
There has been a resurgence of Paganism, renamed “Environmentalism,” which is exactly like the Mystery Cults that plagued Rome and the Hellenic world.
But it’s not ‘Science’, although it tries to claim that it is. An easy way to recognize a phony scientist is listening for his claim that “concensus” proves truth. If this were so, there would be no America because Columbus would have sailed off the edge of the world.
landlines on September 3, 2010 at 11:35 AM
Now why on earth would Stephen Hawking need God when he has himself?
olesparkie on September 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM
maverick muse on September 3, 2010 at 11:20 AM
Yeah, well, I am a card -carrying temple going member, who lives in Utah, so it’s all good. I think it is good that we have lots of middle ground that we share, like faith that Jesus is Lord, and saved us from sin and death, don’t you?
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 11:41 AM
This is a viewpoint I’ve never understood. Yes, if something bad has happened to you, you may be angry and wish that God had intervened. But look at it from God’s point of view. Why create a race of humanity just to have them sit around on sofas and eat grapes while you send angels to wipe their butts? Bliss without freedom, sounds like about as much fun for God as owning seven billion pet hamsters. Not an attractive prospect. I can’t imagine why anyone would create a race of people unless he was interested in seeing what they could do with this life, for good or ill.
Reminds me of the old joke: A devout believer is shipwrecked on a offshore island without food or fresh water. Some tourists in a motor boat see him, and come offer to take him back to the mainland, but he says “No thanks, God will rescue me.” The tourists tell the Coast Guard, who send a helicopter, but the man tells the pilot “Thanks for coming, but I’m waiting for God to rescue me. He’ll be here soon.” Days later, a friend flies out with a sea plane and finds the man thirsty and starving, and begs him to come back with him, but the believer declines, saying “I have faith, God will deliver me.” The man dies of thirst, and when he gets to heaven he asks God, why didn’t you rescue me from that island? God replies, “I sent you a boat, a helicopter, and an airplane? What more did you want?”
joe_doufu on September 3, 2010 at 11:47 AM
Hmmm, I love Jesus too, and I too am prompted by Him to look within, to check the condition of my heart.
But your comment about “walling off God” smacks to me of universalism. Jesus spoke more of Hell than any other Biblical person. He warned over and over that narrow is the way and many do not find it; that He will spit the lukewarm out of His mouth; that many on that day will say “Lord, Lord” and He will pronounce, “I never knew you.”
We cannot divide on small matters, as Paul warned. But in essentials, Christians must agree with ALL that Jesus said, not just the parts that seems warm, fuzzy and “spiritual”. Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and was quite exclusionary about it. To preach another Jesus is blasphemy, pure and simple.
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 11:48 AM
As a Pagan I can tell you the only currently existing mystery cult is Marxism.
Holger on September 3, 2010 at 11:52 AM
These debates are always interesting to me-but it seems that if Christians of all stripes could come together and focus on Faith, Hope, and Charity, a la Glenn Beck, we could move mountains. Jesus was all about harmony, charity and turning the other cheek. The Samaritans come to mind.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 11:55 AM
My belief is that God will accept you whether or not you believe in him or not.
SC.Charlie on September 3, 2010 at 11:57 AM
I SC Charlie. Since we are naturally intolerant of others, we assume God is.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 12:01 PM
oops I agree, Charlie.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 12:02 PM
Respectfully, Kristamatic, Jesus was NOT all about “harmony”. He talked to the Samaritans, absolutely. He talked to everyone, and hung out with folks the “religious” people spurned. But the heart of His message never changed. The message was and is: believe and be saved, or do not believe and be d@mned.
You believe in Jesus…excellent. The problem most Christians have with Mormonism, as you well know, is that Mormons ADD to Jesus’ message, and make the addition a requirement for “true belief”.
I’m an evangelical Christian and I respect Glenn Beck, his place in our nation’s history, and his mission. I love to hear him talk about God. I’m glad he loves Jesus. I just wish he’d lose the Joseph Smith part, because it’s not true. It’s just not.
Christ alone. That’s all you need.
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 12:07 PM
Grace, I understand you are being true to your principles. I think that is exemplary. But I also think as fallen creatures we like to put God into these easily understandable boxes, when He is inexplicable. I think it is likely that the truth of things will shock us all when it comes down to it, and that if we can come together on the things we hold in common, Christ’s teachings of turning the other cheek, doing good to those who hate you, etc. We are more likely to hear “Well done, good and faithful servant” that if we argue about doctrinal bits.
It’s fun to try to eff the ineffable, but it would be better if we were all more tolerant.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 12:19 PM
Do you have children?
Imagine that a man abducts, assaults and brutally murders your child. The murderer believes as you do: that because he sucks oxygen, he’s acceptable to God and can enter heaven.
So, unrepentent, that man is forever in the company of God in heaven, with you and your little girl–the child he abducted, assaulted, and slaughtered.
Do you like that idea? Do you think that’s fair?
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM
The prodigal son comes to mind. Also, I think God is capable of forgiveness of things we are not capable of. But this is why it not our job to judge others.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 12:24 PM
I just read Christopher Hitchens article in Vainty Fair and remember there was something here where I could say what I wanted.
It does make me feel better to contemplate Hitchens and his state of being. It makes me feel better to pray for him. Here’s why:
When I review the facts, Christopher Hitchens, son of God, is of infinite worth.
The mistakes he has made here in the days of our probation are serious and grave, but they do not end the love of God for him. And the same things his family and friends have loved about him, Our Father is fully aware of, He feels pride in Hitchens accomplishments, and amusement and affection for his quirks.
I pray that he will be comfortable in his last days and if it is God’s will, that he will feel something of his worth to our Father, and gratitude to God for his amazing life.
When he has passed, he will find, not a vengeful God, but a Father Chris already knows well and once wanted to please. I think he will feel ashamed. But I think he will find the judgement fair. And I think he will be grateful that it is God who judges him and not Christians, Muslims, or Jews.
Only God can know his heart, the depth of his understanding, the opportunity he has had for understanding, the weakness that he succeeded in overcoming and the weakness that he did not overcome.
God has known the length of his days from the beginning. Justice will be paid, and as much mercy as is lawful will be given him. Everything will finally be fair.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 12:36 PM
I love Christopher Hitchens…..
mountainaires on September 3, 2010 at 12:42 PM
Krista, you seem like a lovely person who is kind and compassionate. I’m sure I’d love to have coffee with you. :)
But I disagree with some of your comments about tolerance and not judging. To a certain extent, you’re correct. Jesus was always tolerant of individual sinners, but never tolerant of lies, false doctrine, or purposeful deceit. The last was particularly troublesome to Him…so much so that He warned believers of wolves and serpents.
The commandment not to judge is often taken out of context. Of course we are not to take God’s place as ultimate Judge. We cannot know the fate of individuals, nor what plans God has for them. That does not mean we are to accept all doctrine, faith, ideas, and actions as equally moral, valid, or true. To do that, in fact, would lead to a complete breakdown of society, wouldn’t you agree? I mean, if we all said, “Well, Jesus was loving, so we’ll just love and not judge”, then our most hardened criminals would wander the streets freely, allowed to perpetrate more evil on our most vulnerable. Would Jesus agree to that idea?
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM
petunia, I enjoy your posts and agree with almost everything you said. I too pray for C. Hitchens, and sincerely wish him well. He’s a brilliant man.
But I’m amazed how many Christians love God, but don’t seem to fear Him. To approach the throne of Heaven is a fearsome thing. To do so without the covering of Christ’s sacrifice, and with the book “God is Not Great” in hand, is a terrifying prospect. We don’t do our faith, its followers, or its detractors any favors when we pretend that God’s sole purpose is to be our loving Father no matter what we’ve done with our life. Yes, He loves everyone. But He is also Holy and Just, and cannot abide sin. Galatians 6:7 says the Lord will not be mocked. So imagine approaching Him as a man who made a career–and a great deal of money–mocking, scoffing, and ridiculing the Almighty.
That’s why I pray for Hitchens: I know what a fearsome trial he’s about the face, one in which every word he wrote will be read back to him, without Jesus Christ to intervene with a “No problem–this one’s Mine”.
Horrifying and deeply tragic. Christopher Hitchens might well have lost his chance to face a loving Father–he may, in face, be forced to face an righteously angry Judge–one who holds Mr. Hitchens accountable for the thousands and thousands of souls he led astray.
I pray that is not the case. I pray for one of the most astounding conversions in history. While there is life, there is yet hope.
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 1:11 PM
Grace, you’re hilarious- I thought everyone knew Mormons don’t drink coffee? I don’t disagree with most of what you say.I just think what God has in store for man is not a fiery hell. But that is a doctrinal difference we have.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 1:27 PM
Grace, that last post was very well said. I really pity Hitchens. His pride – so well expressed in recent column – will be his eternal downfall.
skydaddy on September 3, 2010 at 1:49 PM
A couple of thoughts. One that is sort of deeply cosmic. Consider a couple of fundamental facts that have been gleaned in the last 50-60 years. If you had asked your chemistry teacher years ago while staring at the very first periodic table you ever saw, “Where did the elements of the periodic table come from?” The chemistry teacher would actually have NOT had a very good answer to that question. They’d say, “Well, we dig them out of the earth”, etc…
That’s not where they come from. It took modern astrophysics to determine the origin of the chemical elements. We’ve observed stars… We know what goes on in their centers… They explode daily… Laying bare their contents to our spectrometers, and what we’ve discovered so far is that the elements of the periodic table, that which we are made of, derived from the actions of stars that have manufactured the elements in their innards. Exploding and scattering their enriched guts across the universe to recollect and add fuel to other clouds of gasses that then form a next generation of stars, populated by planets that form from the detritus of that earlier generation of stars.
When you look at the ingredients of the universe, the number one ingredient is hydrogen, next comes helium, then oxygen, carbon and nitrogen. Those are the top ingredients in the universe, and account for upwards of 90% of the mass of the universe. You’ll likely say, “Oh yeah, that’s kind of cool”. But you’re looking at earth and saying, “Aren’t WE special, god made us and his son Jesus was sacrificed so that we can go to heaven with him?!”
Look, what is our body mainly made up of? Water right? H2O. Hydrogen and Oxygen, “Hmmmmmm, hydrogen and oxygen” If you rank the elements in the human body, with the exception of helium which is chemically inert… Useless to you except to inhale and make funny noises like the Chipmunks do… ;-P You can’t die from helium unless that’s ALL you breath for an extended period of time… So the number one element in the human body is hydrogen. Hey, matches the universe! Number two? Oxygen, matches the universe! Number 3, carbon, matches the universe! Number 4? Nitrogen, matches the universe! The rest of the body? “other”, other elements that fluctuate daily (think taking a dump).
So, we’ve learned in the last 50 years, that of course not only do we exist in this universe. It is the universe ITSELF which exists within us… we are MADE of star stuff. “God” is within us, if you will, because the ultimate ruler over us as people are the laws of the universe that we’ve discerned over the millenia until now. That never changes, and miracles, events which “bend” the laws of nature, aren’t a reality. Jesus didn’t come back to life 3 days after being sacrificed on a cross. Continuing to believe in superstitious gods that were made up in the infancy of our species sociologically…? Not any more for me… It’s just a waste of time to me to continue believing in it.
When I look up at the night sky now, I’m humbled at the immensity of the universe around us. With my new found understanding of things, I don’t feel discouraged at all, or scared, or lonely because I don’t have a celestial daddy looking over me in this brief time of consciousness. I look up at the night sky and feel a sense of oneness with the universe. To me, it’s no longer “it’s there”, and “we’re here”… We are part of it, and that association for me is actually very comforting, enlightening and ennobling. In fact, it’s kind of spiritual to me and if I had to define god, that would be it. Knowing that the stuff I’m made of is part and parcel of the universe. In fact, when you get down to the atomic and sub atomic levels of our “being”, there is almost no difference between us all. If you follow the logic, you SHOULD love your neighbor as yourself… they ARE yourself… Instead, we have these competing interpretations of childish gods who read more like an angry parent than as a god would likely behave. But I look at the sky and feel a sense of belonging in the cosmic sense.
But now think about this. We’re made of the ingredients that are most common in the universe, and we already KNOW that OUR form of life exists (water based life). There MIGHT be other forms of life like silicon based life… Who knows? Our form of life might do fine around yellow dwarf stars… Maybe silicate life would do better around other types of stars, like neutron stars or red giants… But seriously, carbon, while it’s the 4th most abundant element out there, can combine to create more molecules and other compounds than all the other elements COMBINED can! Since WE have evolved on this planet, and are carbon/water based life, it is highly likely that life will develop on OTHER planets as well… So far as we now know, carbon/water based life forms on planets in the “Goldilocks Zone” around yellow dwarf stars. We can identify which stars fit that description and then look for planets that are in that zone, and as technology gets better and better, we’ll dig up evidence that life very likely exists on that planet. Maybe not “intelligent” life yet but it very like will be shown to be true someday. Of course the best way to know it is GOING there but who knows if we’ll ever make it that far right? We still need to overcome the technological barriers of such a long distance and we still have to get past the religious fight we see brewing more and more each day. They’re (muslim terrorists) gonna get a hold of a nuke someday… I can just FEEL it, hate to say it but I feel it coming. The shits really gonna start hitting the fan then. I just hope mankind can make it after that dreadful day.
Look, these gods that we find being worshiped these days… They’re just dumb my friend. It’s as simple as someone, ANYONE, making a claim about something and specially pleading that they’re right about it because they have some imaginary god standing behind them. We primarily ues religion to try to codify good and bad behavior, and religion served it’s purpose as an engine for change in how we humans interact with each other, but it’s high time we grew up and shed these monotheistic gods that do more to divide us, than unite us. In fact, they drive us to kill each other as we see flareups from time to time. Are there OTHER reasons for us to kill each other? Sure, getting rid of theistic gods won’t solve all our problems as a species but shedding the belief in these gods that we follow will do more good than harm.
It’s one less reason to disagree, and once you come to the realization that I now know, you’ll have an ever more respectful outlook on life and other people. It’s why I debate religious people now. Once you free yourself from the shackles of a celestial dictator, like Yahweh or Allah, you will THEN know real freedom. It doesn’t mean you do whatever you want of course. We still work to get along and make sure we don’t infringe on other people’s freedoms, but you will THEN understand true freedom.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 1:50 PM
Well Shy Guy, I can see that was a mistake. You didn’t really need to try to dismiss the veracity of the entire New Testament. I guess I was looking for any blatant mischaracterization of what I wrote. Our Bible discusses the event as happening in the temple. I certainly wasn’t looking for any dispute of that. And I’m worry the question started a thread discussion that seems to have pitted our faiths against each other. We have differences, but I respect my sister faith of Judaism. I support Israel. Again, we are going to have different beliefs from our faiths, but they are forever intertwined in support of each other.
hawkdriver on September 3, 2010 at 2:11 PM
Er, I’m not worry, I’m sorry. Didn’t mean to start a range war here.
hawkdriver on September 3, 2010 at 2:26 PM
Mormons don’t disagree with the fact that Christ is the ONLY way to return back to Heaven. And we would agree with you that his message has never changed.
Christianity as well as Judiasm has always been a dynamic religion due to the role of Prophets as God’s spokesman. God has always revealed his truth through Prophets. (Amos 3:7) God has used prophets in the past, he uses them today and he will use them in the future (see Revelation 11:9; see also Revelation 11:7–8,10).
Prophets are part of God’s message. Its part of Jewish and Christian tradition. Glenn Beck, as a person who believes in Christ, won’t be giving up his reverence for Joseph Smith since Jesus himself revered and respected prophets who came before him and after. He quoted from Prophets.
In fact, Christ himself states that he will send prophets but the people will reject them. (See Matthew 23: 29-31,34 and 37.)
If Christ believed in prophets, quoted them, respected them, mourned the fact that people stoned them to death, states that the He will send them to preach the Gospel and warns people to beware of false prophets, then clearly the idea of having a prophet is very much in line for “Christian” like Glenn Beck to revere Joseph Smith.
Conservative Samizdat on September 3, 2010 at 2:29 PM
HMMMM Seems to me that you need alot of “FAITH” to “BELIEVE” the nonsense of the universe coming into being out of and through nothing. NOTHING AT ALL!! Especially when the odds of that happening are the same as a tornado tearing through a junk yard and forming a perfictly good jet aircraft ready for flight. Sounds absurd doesn’t it?
gboy63 on September 3, 2010 at 2:29 PM
Ayn Rand was a committed atheist too… until she died! If I meet you on the other side, I promise to not say, “I told you so!”
sidemeat on September 3, 2010 at 2:42 PM
Sidemeat, we’re ALL atheists when we’re born… Religion and god worship is a LEARNED trait. Without the generation before you foisting their religion on you, you might come to some kind of concept of god, but at least then you wouldn’t have a bunch of luggage called dogma and ritual.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 2:49 PM
hawkdriver on September 3, 2010 at 2:11 PM
+100 for tolerance.
Conservative Samizdat on September 3, 2010 at 2:29 PM
Well done, sir.
Kristamatic on September 3, 2010 at 3:10 PM
Grace, I wasn’t aware of the very Mormon/Christian discussion here this morning. I wrote because I read the article at Vanity Fair and didn’t read other posters first. So please forgive me that I didn’t disclose that I am a Mormon.
I wanted to be sure you knew that because I know it may bear on how you feel about my post.
I agree somewhat with what you said about the fear of God.
I think another difference between us in doctrine is in how wrathful God is.
For us we are damned not by the wrath of God but by our own choices.
I don’t have anymore time right now. I’m not sure I really said what I wanted but I have an appointment.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Oh man I am so late… but I believe quite the opposite! When we are born we were with God only moments before! But we forget what we once knew.
But we must forget in order to prove that we will do all God wants us to do.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 3:14 PM
What proof do you have that this is the case Petunia? Is there some documentation that this is a REALITY, or are you making this stuff up as you go?
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 3:40 PM
If you believe in an omniscient god you have nothing to worry about since it already knows what you will do so you really have no choice in the matter; such a god makes free will, at best, an illusion. An omniscient god cannot answer prayers since that would often require it to change its mind contradicting its omniscience. It is obvious that omnipotence and omniscience in the same being is an impossibility but the cultists continue brandish these terms with reckless abandon.
Annar on September 3, 2010 at 3:58 PM
Why does God’s knowledge of your future mean that you don’t have free will? God is outside of the universe, and outside of time. He views it in four dimensions, like a film director in the cutting room who can look at the past and future by focusing on different frames. The fact that he can fast-forward and see your future doesn’t mean that he chooses that future for you.
You seem to postulate a deterministic universe in which one can only do what he is mechanically compelled to. Sure, if that were true, than whoever set the first particle in motion would be responsible for everything that occurred in the universe. But God doesn’t have to make that assumption, and neither do we. In fact the the empirically-evident phenomena of consciousness and conscience seem to undermine it.
If we don’t assume determinism, then free will and omniscience are not incompatible. You can make your choices, and God can see them without controlling them.
An omniscient god cannot answer prayers since that would often require it to change its mind contradicting its omniscience. It is obvious that omnipotence and omniscience in the same being is an impossibility but the cultists continue brandish these terms with reckless abandon.
Annar on September 3, 2010 at 3:58 PM
joe_doufu on September 3, 2010 at 4:23 PM
Oops I quoted the last part of your post in my post. My message ends with “… them.”
joe_doufu on September 3, 2010 at 4:24 PM
If “gravity” is your god then worm dirt is your destination.
The Zoo Keeper on September 3, 2010 at 4:31 PM
How do you know that
?
Did you just pull this out of your ass?
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 4:47 PM
This is actually an excellent argument, that I remember puzzling over long ago. Since it has been a long time since I gave it any thought I’m not sure I can give a really top answer, but:
It is not only God we are proving ourselves to but also to ourselves.
Also, it would be unjust if we were rewarded or punished before we actually made any choice of our own will. If God wanted to completely control the outcome he would not let us choose at all. He would simply skip to the reward and punishment part.
But he wants us to grow and expand and understand the consequences of obedience and disobedience. He doesn’t want compelled worship. Only freewill worship. He wants us to choose Him freely because we truly love him.
Every outcome is known to God but depending on which choice we make the outcome will change. But since God does know each option he has a pretty good idea which we will choose, but until we make the choice the complete outcome is unknown especially to us. But all the options are known by God.
But actually that is beside the real point. The real reason for free will is for us to become better people or worse people by the choices we make. Through the process of choices good and bad our souls changed. The more good we choose the more refined our soul becomes.
The opposite is also true and in fact without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we could only become worse than how we came into the world. Because without the Atonement the positive effects of our good choices could never make up for the damage done to our souls by our bad choices.
It has been years really since I gave this any thought so this is not a terribly precise answer… I may get some doctrine wrong that if I was to study up again I might say something more precise.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 4:50 PM
This is Mormon doctrine. And most Christians find it offensive because it undermines their beloved doctrine of the natural evilness of mankind because of the fall of Adam. Which they see as sin and we see as transgression only. And most important for God’s plan of Salvation.
This is a major difference. Mormon’s believe that all people are born good. Although there is a struggle between the spirit which is of God and the body which is of the Earth. But that is part of the point. Learning to control the body.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 5:01 PM
So it’s nothing more that religious dogma huh? It has absolutely no basis in reality Petunia. Just because you and millions of other people BELIEVE it, doesn’t mean that it’s true.
Why do you give faith so much weight in life? why is faith such a good thing? I mean, I could say that I had faith that drinking cyanide was a good thing, but as soon as I drink it I’d likely not last more than a minute or two before I died.
Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved.
Religions are like farts, YOURS is good, but everyone else’s stinks.
Grow up and get over it… There MAY be a god, but he SURELY isn’t any of the ones so far proposed. I don’t know what he’s like, or if he even exists, but when I look at the god of my former religion and all the other ones that have been proposed by other cultures on this planet, all I see are gods that are entirely too provincial and local to the area of the world that they spawned from.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 5:10 PM
Your talking points are old. “Farts”, “meat suit”, “Grow up”.
Bugger off, Kraut. You’re becoming the resident God-hating troll. You don’t have any new material. You’re not even interesting.
Grace_is_sufficient on September 3, 2010 at 6:05 PM
Nuts! I don’t care what Hawking or anyone else says . . . there is plenty of evidence, some direct, some indirect, that there IS a G_d!
Trochilus on September 3, 2010 at 6:09 PM
How would you propose to prove the accuracy of this statement?
Trochilus on September 3, 2010 at 6:24 PM
Saurkraut knows with certainty that there’s no God. But if there were, He would be just as he imagines he outa be: just like Saurkraut if he were God!
Nothing created everything. Therefore, nothing exists and is greater than everything.
Akzed on September 3, 2010 at 6:31 PM
Your reasoning for why Jesus drove the moneychangers from the Temple doesn’t seem to match his words. Your bible studyers claim the moneychangers fulfiled a necessary function in the Temple. But Jesus’ words indicate the opposite: “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.”
In other words, the necessary function might have been a humanly necessary function, but it certainly was not a Godly necessary function.
Note that in the three descriptions of the act, Jesus acts with a level of violence we never see from him elsewhere.
Now, we know Jesus loved the moneychangers, but he drove them out. Hmmm.
unclesmrgol on September 3, 2010 at 6:32 PM
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 5:10 PM
Wow. Your name is certainly a good description;) You are one angry Kraut!
I am sorry your experiences with religion have led to your current state of mind concerning it.
What can one say?
My experience is so very different. And my opinions so different than this. How can I bridge that gap? I don’t even understand it.
You leave open the possibility that there is a God.
I testify that there is a God. And that you are his child. That he knows your name. That he knows your problems and he cares about your problems.
But if God could be proven then there would be no need for faith. There would not even be an idea such as “faith”.
Atheists/ non-believers… seem to like laws like gravity and such… well here is a natural law from Mormon doctrine:
This is why a sincere prayer of faith works for everyone. This is why if you do good you are happy. It is a law of nature.
There are laws governing faith. You can’t find faith by pridefully demanding it … anymore than you can make a space ship fly without knowing and following the laws that govern flight and space ships.
If you are sincere in your search for God. I suggest you open your mind, put aside your past experience and jump in. I don’t want to proselytize but Mormonism is pretty easy to learn about and it is what I know. Try http://www.Mormons.org I think you can read, talk to a missionary on line, or set up an appointment.
Good luck to you. I hope you find peace.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 6:38 PM
First of all, I leave open the possibility that a god exists. My contention is that all the one’s we know about so far aren’t “it”.
To prove it very simply, just read the religious books of all the religions we have and use a little critical thinking and you’ll see the fallacies and inanities of said religions.
I’ll make it easier for you. Why aren’t you a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Jainite, or a believer in the great Juju up the mountain?
What criteria do you use to NOT believe or put faith in these religions (if you’re a Christian)? Christianity is no different than any other religion in that you need FAITH to believe in it. You CHOOSE to believe it because people in your life that are older and wiser than you
a, either told you that it was true because people older and wiser than them told them it was.
or b you’re scared of what comes after and the religion has an answer for that.
All I’ve done, that you haven’t, is use the same criteria that I use to NOT believe in Islam, Jainism, Hinduism, etc. I use the same logic and reasoning that I used to discount the other religions we have on this planet. You’re an atheist when it comes to all of these other religions that are being practiced on this planet. You use the best parts of your religion to compare against the best parts of other religions and RATIONALIZE continued belief in what you and your friends and your family choose to believe in.
And that SETS you against the followers of other religions whether you agree or not.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 6:54 PM
Wrong Akzed… I don’t say for sure that there isn’t one. What I do say with certainty is that if there is a god, and he created everything that we see around us on a daily basis including the universe around our little speck of dust of a planet, he surely wouldn’t create all that space JUST so he could place us on this insignificant speck of dust called Earth.
But you hit the nail on the head in regards to how we come UP with these gods… Man contemplates god, and then attributes man like characteristics to it, and we get Allah for the Muslims, Yahweh for the Jews and Christians, Krishna for the Hindus, Wotan for the Danes and Scandinavian countries, Quetzacotl for the Mayans/Aztecs, etc. ad infinitum back into antiquity…
I’ll say this much about god, if he exists, he surely isn’t any of the ones so far proposed.
Again, they read like an angry parent punishing his children and the enemies of his chosen few.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 7:03 PM
I AM in a search for god, but interestingly enough, Mormonism was my second religion of choice.
I moved to Utah in 1996 to open a restaurant called Souper Salads… Orem Utah to be exact. The very most Mormon part of the world that their is. Trust me, I KNOW your religion. I read the book twice cover to cover. I believed it and it made sense to me (for a while). I studied it with true Mormons and I know how wacky it is. YOU know how wacky it is… If you DON’T know how wacky it is then you haven’t studied it enough.
Get out and learn other religions from other people and study that religion like you do, or did, your own. Learn the similarities between them. See how they all have pretty much the same playbook.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM
Sure sounds like fiction to me. Current string theory models use 11 dimensions so I’d be curious to know which four are harboring the non determinist deity.
Annar on September 3, 2010 at 7:51 PM
Please name me a religion that isn’t wacky. Conversely, life without religion is just as irrational and wacky as religion.
Its just a matter of deciding what kind of wackiness you choose to believe in. ;)
Conservative Samizdat on September 3, 2010 at 8:07 PM
The study was conducted by the late Chaplain Timoner, the only female Jewish Chaplain that I’m aware of. So, she knew her stuff. And between our two faiths, we never gathered that it would be proper for them to be inside the temple. We knew that is what upset Jesus. They should have been outside the temple to conduct their business.
hawkdriver on September 3, 2010 at 8:28 PM
Check that. I read my first sentence again and did say inside the temple. As I worded it, you’re correct Uncles, they would have been necessary, outside the temple.
hawkdriver on September 3, 2010 at 8:31 PM
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM
Oh, you’re a Jack Mormon!
Got it!
Really Right on September 3, 2010 at 8:35 PM
If you really know Mormon Doctrine that should actually make perfect sense to you. Also, if you know Mormon Doctrine then the part about condemning all other religions you just made up. Because that is so opposite of what is true. All truth is considered part of Mormonism, you should know that.
Oh! Them! Well no wonder you are confused. That’s what anti-Mormons do, they make you doubt what you know in your heart is really true. And then pretty soon nothing makes sense and then you give up. I’ve seen it before.
I am so sorry they got a hold of you. It has happened to others. We are still here for you if you need us. And that wacky book? It’s still true, just like you thought in the first place.
I think if you want to be judged fairly you should try being a bit more fair to others. Mormons are not perfect. Not one of us. Not Joseph, not President Monson, not me. But we do love sincerely. And we pick ourselves up and we try again every time we fail.
There is a feeling you are missing in your life right now. You can get it back. So many who have found themselves in your position have come back. Remember how wonderful it felt? It is all still here! Right where you left it.
Those people were wrong. You know that because as soon as they started in on you, your life took a turn for the worst and you lost that peace you once had. That beautiful, wonderful peace, remember? We are still here. You can find it again. Come back.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 8:36 PM
Can’t name any that aren’t wackier than a three dollar bill…
Redacted —–> Conversely, life without religious behavior is just as irrational and wacky as religion.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 8:42 PM
Ok, let me rephrase so as to not offend non-Christian sensibilities: What the moneychangers were doing may have been a required act, but it did not sit well with Jesus.
That fixes things for everyone — Jesus, to non-Christians, remains a human who is interfering with what is required, but, to Christians, Jesus is God saying that what they are doing is not required.
As for being outside the Temple to conduct their business, note that Christians (or, rather, us Catholics) do not sacrifice doves or lambs or oxen, or have a mandatory tax for entering the sacred precincts — obviously our view of these things comes from Jesus’ view. Hence, even a place outside the Temple would have been moot. The transaction of business is not a part of our religion. Of course, as with most faiths, including yours, almsgiving (giving to a people in need as act of worship) is a requirement.
It’s what drives me crazy about Cash for Clunkers — those cars, so much better than what the poor drive — were destroyed to aid the rich. Under a law common to both of our faiths, the gleanings of the field should have been left to the poor — under that same law, those cars should have been given to the poor in replacement of their more-polluting vehicles.
unclesmrgol on September 3, 2010 at 8:44 PM
LOL! You just don’t get it do you?
Nobody nefarious got a hold of me Petunia. You’re just precious you know that? EVERY person in every sect of every religion has it wrong in comparison to YOUR flavor of -insert religions name here-
Grace_is_sufficient (the best internet sniper their is) will likely get on me for repeating a canard I enjoy bandying about but religions really ARE like farts, YOURS is great, but everyone else’s stinks.
Don’t bother praying for me (which I know just SAYING will reap the opposite effect of its intended thrust), I don’t need it.
The point is that we ALL think we know it is and have it, life, figured out. YOU condescend to myself in regards to my atheism, and the adherents of every other religion by saying WE have it wrong so you shouldn’t be surprised when you get it thrown back in your face.
Religion is BUNK I tell you. You don’t NEED it to be good in life and there likely ISN’T a personal god in your life other than your own imagination rationalizing and making OK all the thoughts you come up with.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 9:19 PM
If you wondered if I came back to see what you would say. I did. I care. How do you explain that? That I care about you, when I don’t know you?
Do you believe in the brotherhood of man? I do. I’m glad you think I’m precious! You are funny. A bit mean, but funny.
I won’t bother to share my testimony with you. You’ve heard it before. I am saddened by how deeply you feel.
I won’t convince you and you won’t convince me. That isn’t how the laws that govern these things works is it? You have to find it on your own ultimately.
I’m sure you have very good reasons for your feelings. And I respect your right to your own conscience.
Please know that if you ever do want to come back we are here doing what we do, every Sunday, Monday… you know, everyday really. Just plugging along in our blissful little lives… praying to a God that isn’t really there, getting answers that really aren’t answers… learning things that really aren’t things… filling up our lives with light and truth and happiness and peace… all on a hoax. Funny how things work out so well with all that self-deception going on.
My life is really really good, I only want to share that, I hope you aren’t offended. I apologize if you are.
Good night Brother Kraut. I wish you peace and success in your quest. It is a worthy quest to seek God.
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 9:58 PM
What you fail the realize is that this brotherhood of man is all it is. Religion is the most primitive form of politics that we have. It’s a group of like minded individuals getting together to codify a set of beliefs and ways of life. It’s political in that it seeks new adherents, or new converts, and it seeks to propagate it’s continuance by breeding.
What’s so funny about the Mormon religion is that the BEST and fastest way to do that is to believe in polygamy, MUCH like the Muslims do, and it was precisely the Muslim religion that Joseph Smith took his playbook from. He just AMERICANIZED it by siphoning off willing Christians to make it even MORE palatable to the masses, but polygamy was the best way to go and the Christians of this nation saw that as a threat… Thus we have anti polygamy laws…
You fail to understand how simple it all is really. Just use a bit of critical thinking, MUCH like you do in all other aspects of your life, and apply it to life in general…
The love and comfort you feel ISN’T a god, but your own emotions and physiology associated with it when you do something you love… Hanging out with people of like mind who are kind and generous and benefecant to one another, and seek to foster those feelings in others as well.
Is religion a good thing in many respects? For the points I just brought up yes. It’s good to be with friends who love you, etc… Atheists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, ALL enjoy this same feeling that you do when you’re at church with evreyone…
It’s nothing new, but conflating all that into it being some personal god who cares for you, etc…? Nah, that’s NOT it.
Did a god create everything? Maybe, but don’t live your life around it and certainly don’t abnegate your own self to some religion that was thought up eons ago…
Grow up and take responsibility for your life. A god, if he exists, would look with more favor on somebody who made an honest profession of unbelief, than on someone who acceded to believe in him in the hope of a hand out for living a good life, or from fear of his judgment.
It belittles the good act done if it was only done because you feared retribution in some afterlife…
This life is the only one we have to live, so live it well and CHOOSE to be good in life. The rewards for it outweigh the rewards for a bad one… In the here and now, not in some afterlife.
SauerKraut537 on September 3, 2010 at 10:20 PM
Why would you think you could talk me out of a lifetime of experimenting on the word of God? Do you disrespect my intelligence so much that you can not accept that my experience with faith is different from yours?
You think all religion fits into a stereotype that probably no one really fits into?
I respect your right to disbelieve–to limit your life to the physical world. I don’t understand why that would appeal to you. But I understand that you have different experiences than I have.
How could you even begin to think “a little critical thinking” could begin to compare with pure light and knowledge, pure intelligence, as it pours into my mind and enlarges my understanding? Have you ever felt the Holy Ghost? I guess probably not or you would not say what you say. I walk everyday in the light, I see things very clearly! But I see things as they really are. Not as you pretend they are.
Life is so much more. And you are missing it.
I especially find it offensive that you would think I would love God out of some kind of fear of the afterlife. Nothing could be further from the truth! I talk to God every single day! Why would I fear to meet Him face to face? I love Him and He loves me! He is my Savior and my Friend!
petunia on September 3, 2010 at 11:47 PM
reread what I said, and THINK about it Petunia…
SauerKraut537 on September 4, 2010 at 3:05 AM
Petunia, let it go.
If he’s not interested in our faith, then he’s not interested.
Let him exercise his right to believe what he wants.
Conservative Samizdat on September 4, 2010 at 10:35 AM
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