Do a couple of blog posts prove politics is “broken”?

posted at 10:36 am on August 14, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

My friend Matt Lewis writes a condemning column today about John Hawkins on the right and Matt Yglesias on the left to argue that politics is indeed broken, and that two pieces written by them prove it.  In the process, Matt makes the same error of which he accuses John, at least, which is to ignore context and scope, both in his criticism of John’s project and in his application of John and Matt as poster boys of all American politics.

Let’s start with Matt’s take on John’s column, which listed the 25 worst Americans of all time:

On the conservative side, RightWingNews’ John Hawkins asked several conservative bloggers to help compile a list of ‘The 25 Worst Figures in American History.’

Here’s the kicker: While conservative bloggers ranked liberal presidents Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, and Franklin Roosevelt at the top of the list of the ‘worst figures in American history’ list (and numerous other liberals made the list), they failed to include some really bad people — like serial killers. …

Certainly, one could make the case that political leaders — because of their reach and immense importance — actually have much greater impact over our society as a whole than any serial killer ever could (though I would argue the Manson murders actually had a major impact on American culture, and essentially ended the “60s”).

But this, of course, is sophistry. Hawkins’ list was not titled “the worst political leaders,” but rather “the worst figures” in American history, and thus, the results seem to betray what we already know to be true: Too many political bloggers view their political opponents as being worse than serial killers.

Just for disclosure’s sake, John usually invites me to participate in his polls, but I’m usually too busy to put much time into them (sorry, John).  This time, I passed for a couple of other reasons.  First, I had already done this exercise five years ago at Captain’s Quarters, about which more in a moment.  The problem with just listing people and then counting numbers is that context gets lost.  That’s Matt’s legitimate complaint here, and also Jim Geraghty’s:

“No Charles Manson? Come on. You’re really telling me Al Sharpton and Michael Moore outrank somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, who ate people? Race-baiting and rabble-rousing outrank cannibalism?”

But when a political blogger surveys for a list of the 25 worst Americans from political bloggers, isn’t politics the implied context?  When John sent out the query, that’s certainly how I understood it.  Otherwise, such a list would quickly become a descending-order body count for American serial killers, and would be entirely useless and inane.  At the same time, I figured that without a clear explanation, the list would be misinterpreted, as I worried five years ago when I wrote my post.  That’s why I was careful to frame the list with my understanding of the context:

For my consideration, I decided that the status of American had to be part of their “crimes”. In other words, simply picking someone like Ted Bundy or Charles Manson would be too easy. Their evil, though real and in most cases worse than what you’ll read on this list, doesn’t have to do with their innate American heritage. I went looking for the people who sinned against America itself, or the ideal of America. Otherwise, we’d just be looking at body counts.

If anything, my criticism of John’s list would be that it included too many recent figures, which shows a different kind of contextual failing.  That’s a problem with blogging that Matt and Jim miss in their response; it’s too immediate in most cases for long-term perspective.  When a 49-year-old President comes in second all time in worst figures in American history after only eighteen months as President, it shows a remarkable lack of perspective, and ignores at least the potential for redemption.

Next, Matt goes after a really stunning and foolish statement from Yglesias:

But while conservatives were busy ranking liberal politicians as worse than Jeffrey Dahmer, one liberal blogger was busy arguing that the ends justify the means. Responding to conservative blogger Mark Hemingway, liberal blogger Matthew Yglesias fired off the following Tweet:

“Fighting dishonesty with dishonesty is sometimes the right thing for advocates to do, yes.”

When conservative Josh Trevino pressed the point, Yglesias responded, asking: “Do you really think deception is immoral in all circumstances?” (The Daily Caller has more on the Yglesias story.)

There’s not much one can do to defend that.  Deception in almost every conceivable context is not only immoral, but damaging to one’s credibility.  I’ve certainly been wrong before — I don’t know anyone who hasn’t been.  I’m not always the most gracious person when confronted on errors, but I’m not an ogre about it, either.  What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

In Yglesias’ defense, at least somewhat, it’s pretty easy to be glib and speculative on Twitter, something Octavia Nasr and others discovered a bit too late.  Yglesias is relatively young, which means he has plenty of time to redeem himself from essentially torpedoing his own credibility.

But let’s make it clear that Yglesias’ problems are entirely his own, and John’s his own as well, to the extent the two of them have issues.  Matt Lewis’ criticisms are well founded until he concludes with this:

I know and like both Yglesias and Hawkins (and many of the folks who helped Hawkins select members of the list), and let me stress this is not about them. While it would be wrong to assume these two incidents represent the whole of the political blogosphere, my educated guess is that they do not represent a minority viewpoint, either.

So what’s the sad lesson learned from the convergence of these two blog stories?

In general, too many partisans (or ideologues may be a more accurate term) view their political opponents as actually being more dangerous than serial killers. And thus, in order to beat the bad guys (who, after all, are worse than Manson), they believe lying is justified …

That’s one hell of a jump from Yglesias’ tweet and John’s list of 25 baddies of American history.  Yglesias and Hawkins represent themselves, not anyone else.  When other people lie and smear, well, call them out on it, but painting two bloggers as representative of American politics is somewhat akin to painting Michael Vick as emblematic of American pet ownership.  Matt makes the same error that John did in compiling his list, which is to ignore context.  In fact, he makes another in assigning to John Hawkins the belief that Yglesias tweeted without any evidence that John actually does believe in deception as means to an end.  That’s very unfair, and very unlike Matt, who’s usually a lot more thoughtful than this.

The “sad lesson” that should be derived from this is to pay attention to context — and to resist the urge to paint big-picture, sweeping generalizations from two data points.

Update: John Hawkins has agreed to let me publish his survey e-mail in its entirety in order to allow people to see the context in which bloggers responded:

Hello

Right Wing News is going to be running a poll called, “Right-Of-Center Bloggers Select The 20 Worst Figures In American History” on Friday of this week.

What I’m hoping you will do is email me back an unranked list of 1-20 of the worst figures in American history. The figures in question can be living or dead and keep in mind, you don’t have to send me 20 of them. If you can only come up with a few, that’s fine.

A few other details

* Once again, what I need for this one is an unranked list of 1-20 of the worst figures in American history.
* The response deadline for this one is 7 PM EST on Thursday.
* The results of this blogger only poll will go live on Friday.
* If you’d like to be removed from this list, just let me know and it will be done immediately.

All the best

John Hawkins

http://www.rightwingnews.com
http://www.linkiest.com
http://www.viralfootage.com
http://www.selfhelpquotes.net
http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins

Update II: Be sure to read Rick Moran’s criticism as well.

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If they want killers they need people whose murders had impact beyond the crime. For example, John Wilkes Booth, James Earl Ray, or Lee Harvey Oswald.

rob verdi on August 14, 2010 at 10:40 AM

Barney Franks better be on that list.

Inanemergencydial on August 14, 2010 at 10:40 AM

I read about Yglesias this morning, he was actual being honest about the left. Think about the president and the Democrats willful pushing fake CBO scores to claim Obamacare reduced the deficit. all of this cheered on by “objective” media like the Times. Yglesias mistake was merely to admit the obvious.

rob verdi on August 14, 2010 at 10:45 AM

ED, I’m sorry, but the lesson I took away from this is that both of the Matts are either A) not very bright, B) have trouble with context C) are lazy, D) inherently dishonest, or E) all of the above. At the very least, this has dissuaded me from reading them and taking either seriously.

HadithHarry on August 14, 2010 at 10:49 AM

In general, too many partisans (or ideologues may be a more accurate term) view their political opponents as actually being more dangerous than serial killers. And thus, in order to beat the bad guys (who, after all, are worse than Manson), they believe lying is justified …

Let’s forget the fact that moonbats would rate Sarah Palin as being worse than Charlie Manson.

This is just projection. The masters of demonization shedding crocodile tears. Yawn.

ddrintn on August 14, 2010 at 10:49 AM

^ To be clear, Matt Lewis there is spot on.

ddrintn on August 14, 2010 at 10:50 AM

Off the top of my head here is the worst 8 (in order)
1. Bennedict Arnold
2. John Wilkes Booth
3. James Earl Ray
4. Arron Burr
5. Joe Nye
6. Major Chivington(Red Creek Massacre)
7. Roger Taney
8. Joe Kennedy Senior

rob verdi on August 14, 2010 at 10:50 AM

But when a political blogger surveys for a list of the 25 worst Americans from political bloggers, isn’t politics the implied context?

Ding, ding, ding.

Next topic.

CWforFreedom on August 14, 2010 at 10:51 AM

When a 49-year-old President comes in second all time in worst figures in American history after only eighteen months as President, it shows a remarkable lack of perspective

Who, besides maybe Jimmuh, has done more damage to the USA? OK, maybe I’m an ignoramus. But I don’t know of anyone.

itsnotaboutme on August 14, 2010 at 10:52 AM

Scope…that’s is what is at the root of any such listing.

Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer ate people, and Charles Manson tried to set the world afire with spectacular murders…

But, when you look at the vast numbers of people negatively affected, then, yes, a Jimmy Carter outweighs a Jeffrey Dahmer, and a race-baiting Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton or Louis Farrakhan outweighs a Charles Manson…and a Keith Olbermann outweighs a few others who actually committed heinous crimes not because he is a heinous criminal, but because of the raw hatred he fosters under the guise of journalism and commentary. Being able to capture a pulpit and draw hundreds of thousands or millions to foresake basic decency and promote lies distortions and hatred is a pretty big thing…and America was not founded on those sort of principles, and our communities do not flourish when such are the norm.

Strapping ones grandchildren and great grandchildren with trillions in debt, a lowered lifestyle, lowered expectations of personal success and near total dependence on government for decades and decades to come…that’s something that will get you rated as one of the 25 worst Americans of all time. Might have to raise the number on the list once we go through the current Congress and Administration on that note alone.

Yes, the guy who cuts up young kids and eats them is pretty bad, disgusting, and of the worst behaviour, but, not to be trite, how many were directly affected by such gross crimes?

Scope.

coldwarrior on August 14, 2010 at 10:53 AM

The “sad lesson” that should be derived from this is to pay attention to context — and to resist the urge to paint big-picture, sweeping generalizations from two data points

Ed, interesting post and analysis. The lesson isn’t sad, nor does the lesson fully encompass the issue you discuss. That issue is the tactic to expand an argument (make a sweeping generalization) from a specific datum. That could be from counting opinions, or making some list of 25 baddies–is that from the “results” of this poll or list–that the sweeping generalization is made regarding an opponent and some attribute (worse than a serial killer) is assigned to someone. It’s hyperbolic and very weak thinking and it illuminates the wretched level of discourse and failure of reasoned and logical thought and debate amongst many both inside and outside of politics. Except you of course, Ed.

ted c on August 14, 2010 at 10:54 AM

“When a 49-year-old President comes in second all time in worst figures in American history after only eighteen months as President, it shows a remarkable lack of perspective, and ignores at least the potential for redemption.” Morrissey

How many Presidents exactly have there been who have attempted to thwart hundreds of years of history and jam their own radical agenda down America’s throats?

Let’s give him 6 more years and then decide, right Ed? After all, he could have a “redemption” and come down foursquare in favor of the the values, principles and policies that have guided this country for centuries. All he would have to do is repudiate every single principle he espouses, every acquaintance in his life history, every speech he has ever made, and his 18 month long apology tour.

Let’s not be too quick to judge.

Jeez

notagool on August 14, 2010 at 10:55 AM

Well done, Ed. John’s survey was clearly an “off the top of your head quickie” one, and in a political context. Circumstances and context matter, but the entire media today seems to ignore or push it to the side in favor of pandering. (NYT, Newsweek come to mind) John should have known better though.

MT on August 14, 2010 at 10:55 AM

HadithHarry,
I generally agree and reading that list only confirms a lack of perspective. For example, I can understand the animus towards LBJ, but it would be a mistake to ignore his accomplishments in getting the voting and civil rights acts passed. Additionally FDR was incredibly flawed, but he was certainly better then Woodrow Wilson who managed to increase segregation and government intervention in the economy as well as let his vainglorious attitude poison relations with our allies at Versailles and republicans at home.

rob verdi on August 14, 2010 at 10:57 AM

Worst murderer?
Andrew Kehoe.
As I wrote in my blog in 2007:

I’m baffled. I’ve been a news junkie with an interest in history for most of my adult life, and I was born in Michigan. How is it that I never heard of the worst school violence ever in the US until a few days ago? Bath, Michigan; May 18, 1927. Most of the 45 killed and 58 injured were young children. Maybe…no, it couldn’t be! But, maybe if the Butcher of Bath had used a gun instead of dynamite to visit his evil upon that school, the incident might be common knowledge today.

itsnotaboutme on August 14, 2010 at 10:57 AM

I’m surprised Margaret Sanger hasn’t been mentioned yet.

JohnGalt23 on August 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM

Many of us are way too prissy about political discourse today, which is actually quite mild compared to political discourse in the past. Opinion writers during, for example, Mark Twain’s era were often downright nasty, even in regards to relatively minor issues. The real proof that politics is broken is that people such as Harry Reid can make racist comments and then lie about those comments with impunity.

Bill Ramey on August 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM

That’s a problem with blogging that Matt and Jim miss in their response; it’s too immediate in most cases for long-term perspective. When a 49-year-old President comes in second all time in worst figures in American history after only eighteen months as President, it shows a remarkable lack of perspective, and ignores at least the potential for redemption.

Ed, while you are right in your analytical and sober perspective on this point–you have to understand that Jim is using his gut level instinct in processing his response to this one. Read Malcom Gladwell’s “Blink” and you’ll understand how some people do use their gut instinct to arrive at conclusions that would otherwise take too long to gain full perspective on. You wouldn’t sit on the couch and rationalize that a guy bursting through your front door is merely there for a cup of sugar, your gut would tell you that he’s there to harm you and do it quickly. If you evaluate the speed by which Obama is moving to “fundamentally transform” our nation (speed of legislation, now, “crisis”, “talk is over”, and so on, you’d see that he is coming through the door looking to cause harm while many of us try to reason through that he’s just another politician. Both a good knowledge of history, and a gut instinct is telling Jim and Matt that Mr. Obama is a guy coming through the door, like no other president has before….and I agree with their assertions…my 2cent.

ted c on August 14, 2010 at 11:01 AM

The death of politics, and maybe our culture, is the result of emotional incompetence and narcissism. Rhetoric has trampled intellectual discourse, and logic has been suffocated by metaphorical self aggrandizing. Our very language has become bastardized.

Civility is rooted in honesty and humility, and the height of intellegence is understanding how little one knows. From there, self reliant individuals can form a political ideaolgy and process capable and worthy of, the common good of the people.

singlemalt_18 on August 14, 2010 at 11:02 AM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

I gotta disagree with you on that. The Left’s entire agenda is based on lies. They lie about everything.

Everything from gay “rights” to the education system and so on. I could sit here for hours and go on and on about how the left uses lies to steer their agenda.

Guardian on August 14, 2010 at 11:02 AM

I’m surprised Margaret Sanger hasn’t been mentioned yet.

JohnGalt23 on August 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM

Excellent point. George Tiller also.

itsnotaboutme on August 14, 2010 at 11:03 AM

careful folks, I think AP’s date got hit with a ball last night…/

ted c on August 14, 2010 at 11:05 AM

testing

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 11:06 AM

I’m sorry, who is Matt Lewis?

A political blog is its own context. This isn’t advanced college-level learning here. Plus, if you’re going to choose a surrogate for conservative political opinion, shouldn’t you choose someone more representative. Nothing against John, but he’s a bit more hard core than Hot Air, Powerline or InstaGlenn.

Immolate on August 14, 2010 at 11:07 AM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

Are we strictly talking pundits here? I think we could point to any number of threads where the current administration has deliberately disseminated incorrect information. I realize I am biased but I think there is plenty of deception going on.

Cindy Munford on August 14, 2010 at 11:11 AM

coldwarrior on August 14, 2010 at 10:53 AM

Well said. My thoughts exactly

chemman on August 14, 2010 at 11:12 AM

What makes you think the ’60′s have ended. The thoughts and values are still alive and living in the WH and State Dept. We are infected with those who lived those days and those who read the books written by them. Manson and his ilk are as terrible in their thoughts and actions and we will see a return to that scene when pot is made legal. It is a gate way drug to worse devices.

Meanwhile, the sane will keep on keeping on. Gotta go chop more firewood. Unless there’s a bailout coming for that too.

Kissmygrits on August 14, 2010 at 11:16 AM

“No Charles Manson? Come on. You’re really telling me Al Sharpton and Michael Moore outrank somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, who ate people? Race-baiting and rabble-rousing outrank cannibalism?”

Now that’s funny. Good article to explain how that could happen.

scalleywag on August 14, 2010 at 11:24 AM

Allahpundit: I won.

Immolate on August 14, 2010 at 11:24 AM

I participated in the RWN poll. Clearly it was a mix of historical and political figures. One can argue that the damage being done by the anti-American progressives is far worse than that of a Jeffrey Dahmer, or a Ted Bundy, or a Gary Lee Ridgway.

My list had Margaret Sanger on it, for her support of the Nazi theory of the master race, eugenics and for being a pure racist. My list also had John Wilkes Booth on it for forever altering the course of post-Civil War America. My list had Barack Hussein Obama on it for forever changing America according to his radical Marxist vision.

My list also had James Buchanan, the worst President in U.S. history until you get to Jimmy Carter and the Community Organizer in Chief, who just yesterday urinated on the graves of 3,000 Americans killed by the Religion of Piece (of Arm, of Leg, of Torso). How much worse can you get than that?

pdigaudio on August 14, 2010 at 11:29 AM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

At the risk of sounding cynical, having spent far too much time around politicians, I have found most of them consider lies and deceit to be essential tools.

novaculus on August 14, 2010 at 11:31 AM

The death of politics, and maybe our culture, is the result of emotional incompetence and narcissism. Rhetoric has trampled intellectual discourse, and logic has been suffocated by metaphorical self aggrandizing. Our very language has become bastardized.

Civility is rooted in honesty and humility, and the height of intellegence is understanding how little one knows. From there, self reliant individuals can form a political ideaolgy and process capable and worthy of, the common good of the people.

singlemalt_18 on August 14, 2010 at 11:02 AM

Those are good points, but I think the root of the problem is that to the Left in particular, politics is everything. It’s their religion, and anything in the service of that religion is permissible.

ddrintn on August 14, 2010 at 11:36 AM

The only thing that makes lists like that interesting is that different groups of people come up with different names. Ask them a month from now, and the list will be a little different. If everybody always came up with the same names, there’d be no point in even doing it.

RBMN on August 14, 2010 at 11:38 AM

If a news organization asked fashion editors to rank the top 25 Fashion Don’ts, I wouldn’t expect to see the guy who streaked a ball game.

If there were a list of the top 25 worst actors, I woudn’t expect movie reviewers to include Cousin Edna’s elementary school performance as Pilgrim #3.

What in the &%$# is wrong with people.

Laura in Maryland on August 14, 2010 at 11:38 AM

Do a couple of blog posts prove politics is “broken”?

Unless I’m misunderstanding something here (I do occasionally), all those two blogs prove is “the more things change, the more they stay the same”.

Claiming politics is broken is totally subjective,
in the eye of the beholder”, and such.

listens2glenn on August 14, 2010 at 11:38 AM

The “sad lesson” that should be derived from this is to pay attention to context — and to resist the urge to paint big-picture, sweeping generalizations from two data points.

I agree completely. Progressives suck.

BKeyser on August 14, 2010 at 11:45 AM

“Deception in almost every conceivable context is not only immoral…”

False.

Deception is morally alright or even commendable in a lot of very real contexts, e.g.,

1) When a home intruder inquires as the location of valuable goods or a loved one,

2) In many police and national security interrogations, deception on the part of the interrogator can prompt probative answers,

3) When a government agent unjustly, and in a manner contrary to the rule of law, wants to seize property (e.g. seize guns during an “emergency”)

4) When a loved one, on his/her death bed, asks if you’re unfaithful (and you were.) Want the lat moment of your spouse’s life to be filled with pain?

Talk amongst yourselves; there’s other examples in which deception is a good thing.

BCrago66 on August 14, 2010 at 11:47 AM

I would think that Traitors to the USA would be somewhere on this list?.

hawkman on August 14, 2010 at 11:48 AM

Ed obviously didn’t pay attention. Right at the start of the post on rightwingnews he mentions serial killers.

Narutoboy on August 14, 2010 at 11:55 AM

Didn’t Cesar say the same thing when Brutus stabbed him?

“Et tu Brutus? Is not politics forever broken by the heartless thurst of thy knife?”

Rod on August 14, 2010 at 11:56 AM

I’ve always thought it acceptable to lie to a criminal who, say, wants to know where one’s loved ones are hidden.

Kant said that it’s always immoral to lie, no matter what. Never could agree with Kant on that.

Of course, it may be difficult to lie effectively to a smart criminal. In True Romance, Dennis Hopper (cop) is trapped and asked by Christopher Walken (mobster) where the cop’s son has gone with the mobster’s cocaine, and the cop both avoids lying and avoids further interrogation, by showing gutsiness and insulting mobster into shooting him dead.

ForNow on August 14, 2010 at 11:57 AM

ForNow on August 14, 2010 at 11:57 AM

That is one of my all time favorite scenes. Hardcore insulting at its best!

Gang-of-One on August 14, 2010 at 12:04 PM

Narutoboy on August 14, 2010 at 11:55 AM

Hey, where have you been?

Cindy Munford on August 14, 2010 at 12:05 PM

Yglesias is relatively young, which means he has plenty of time to redeem himself from essentially torpedoing his own credibility.

Sorry, but no, he doesn’t have plenty of time. He’s BSed his way to the front of the pundrity line decades before he’s earned it, and we will hold his feet to the fire just as strongly as we would Frank Rich.

Yglesias’s comment ought to earn him a shunning for a good two or three years while he does some serious soul-searching. And since it won’t, it will be a very long time until I believe anything he says that makes the left look good or the right look bad.

The Lone Platypus on August 14, 2010 at 12:05 PM

“No Charles Manson? Come on. You’re really telling me Al Sharpton and Michael Moore outrank somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, who ate people? Race-baiting and rabble-rousing outrank cannibalism?”

What’s a few lives compared to the destruction of an entire nation? Think of how many people have lost their lives because of liberal policies. Think of how many have committed suicide or had their livelihoods turned upside down by the Left.

All of the serial killers in American history put together don’t hold a candle to the destruction wrought by Obama and the left.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:07 PM

Allahpundit: I won.

Immolate on August 14, 2010 at 11:24 AM

That’s a good one. Unusual behavior for Mr. AP.

Gang-of-One on August 14, 2010 at 12:11 PM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

Huh? I think about 400 or so Journolisters rendered this statement rather silly. The journolist was bald-faced proof that the left side of journalism actively engages in deceit and lies to achieve their ends.

Fishoutofwater on August 14, 2010 at 12:13 PM

I would think that Traitors to the USA would be somewhere on this list?.

hawkman on August 14, 2010 at 11:48 AM

Right, and most of the traitors in our history were working for allies of America’s left, like the U.S.S.R..

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:13 PM

See, if I had of been reading the RWN piece, I automatically would have listed political figures. It’s a political blog. If the piece had of been on some entertainment blog, I might have listed crappy movie stars. Context matters to me. Plus, who is Matt Lewis to be busting anyone’s chops? I tried to read his blog on and off for yrs, and he is soooo inconsistent in his writing/views.

di butler on August 14, 2010 at 12:13 PM

Ed obviously didn’t pay attention. Right at the start of the post on rightwingnews he mentions serial killers.

Narutoboy on August 14, 2010 at 11:55 AM

Don’t you mean inbred white southerners?

/

Didn’t miss ya and forgot all about your POS arse.

CWforFreedom on August 14, 2010 at 12:14 PM

I’m not sure what’s supposed to be wrong with thinking that bad government people are worse than serial killers. It is a defensible opinion. Government is clearly a lot more dangerous than an individual serial killer.

Kohath on August 14, 2010 at 12:14 PM

I’m not sure what’s supposed to be wrong with thinking that bad government people are worse than serial killers. It is a defensible opinion. Government is clearly a lot more dangerous than an individual serial killer.

Kohath on August 14, 2010 at 12:14 PM

And what’s worse is that often times in the past hundred years they’re one and the same. You’ve got Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc, all of which were allies of American progressives and all of which killed millions apiece.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:20 PM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

Umm, last I checked alot of Dems loved Al Franken and he’s basically made a career out of deception. (You know telling us stuff like Clinton stopped Bojinka when in reality it got stopped because the terrorists accidently set fire to their apartment. Do I need to go on?)

Dave_d on August 14, 2010 at 12:20 PM

The point is a valid one, that of viewing one’s political opponents through such a myopic lens that it tends to apparently skew perspective is not really a good thing. Leaving it wide open, as Hawkins did, one might expect to see the likes of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, or Alger Hiss, or Benedict Arnold, or Carrie Nations on such a list, for the damage they did to this nation through their actions. Focusing on deranged criminals whose acts were actually somewhat limited in a larger scope misses the point as well.

While Ed has connected this to Yglesias’ latest profoundly dumb pronouncement, and then making som soothing and encouraging sounds so as not to offend the young lad, based upon Yglesias’ track record, the only thing I can think of to say about it is that if Matthew Yglesias is ever forced to find employment more in line with his demonstrated skill set, that is one 7-11 that I’ll be avoiding no matter how badly I’m craving a Big Bite hot dog.

Wind Rider on August 14, 2010 at 12:22 PM

Wasn’t Yglesias on Journolist? If so, his take on deception is understandable.

As far as we know Adolf Hitler didn’t actually kill anyone in World War Two and many Gestapo executioners most certainly did. That doesn’t take Adolf out of the running for one of the worst Germans!

sharrukin on August 14, 2010 at 12:23 PM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

Do you seriously believe that? While you might not deliberately deceive, don’t try to excuse the liberals (or for that matter, some, albeit far fewer, on the right) for deception. There is a cacophony of liberal memes being spread by the MSM, liberal blogs, and Media Elites. When you excuse the reality staring you in the face, what is your intent? Are you trying to establish some sort of enlightened credibility with the left?

How do you justify? Have you spoken to any liberals and progressives? Almost to each individual they will say the same unsubstantiated memes, and flat out lie. I am not just talking about media mouths, go into a college class room or dorm. Do you believe Sarah Palin actually faked pregnancy to hide a illegitimate birth? Do you believe the Tea Party is full of racists? Does the military intentionally kill unarmed civilians? Do you know how many on the left will repeat those lies without a shred of guilt?

Rode Werk on August 14, 2010 at 12:26 PM

Politics is broken when people can get away without paying any taxes, and yet expect services funded by those that do pay taxes. Legalized vote buying. That’s what broke politics clear back in 1913.

gryphon202 on August 14, 2010 at 12:26 PM

Off the top of my head here is the worst 8 (in order)
1. Bennedict Arnold
2. John Wilkes Booth
3. James Earl Ray
4. Arron Burr
5. Joe Nye
6. Major Chivington(Red Creek Massacre)
7. Roger Taney
8. Joe Kennedy Senior

rob verdi on August 14, 2010 at 10:50 AM

wilson
teddy roosevelt
FDR
Carter
Obama
Bloomberg
manson
Murdoff
Bernard Ebbers
Paulson
Bernanke

unseen on August 14, 2010 at 12:31 PM

Almost to each individual they will say the same unsubstantiated memes, and flat out lie.[...]

Rode Werk on August 14, 2010 at 12:26 PM

Their absurdly fictional account of reality amounts is belligerence. It’s offensive. No amount of fact can budge them from their fantasies, they refuse to listen. America’s differences are irreconcilable. No amount of discourse, even reality based, (which is impossible with the Left), can convince the Left to Abandon Marx or the Right to abandon the Constitution, and the two are entirely incompatible.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM

The lefts fiction is not only frustrating, it’s downright dangerous! It’s collective insanity!

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:40 PM

This is just retarded.

Why is everyone so concerned with ranking things? 25 worst figures? Poppycock.

The fact that anyone even brings up serial killers makes the exercise infantile.

And, the entire couching of the survey – “worst” implies a value judgment. Can we stop with the judging of people’s motives? All that serves is to satiate our own quest for moral superiority.

I believe we need to reestablish respect for political opponents. (Impossible? I think not.)

Barack Obama isn’t trying to destroy the country. It sure does look like it, which makes granting him respect difficult. But, how about it? He’s trying to do the right thing – he’s just really, really, really, extraordinarily bad at it.

Pablo Snooze on August 14, 2010 at 12:48 PM

I’m surprised Margaret Sanger hasn’t been mentioned yet.

JohnGalt23 on August 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM

Excellent point. George Tiller also.

itsnotaboutme on August 14, 2010 at 11:03 AM

But, whereas Sanger’s philosophy and beliefs led an entire movement, it’s not clear that Tiller’s is somehow causing a chain reaction of people going out to kill abortionists.

Manson, perhaps (because he ended the 60′s???). What about Jim Jones? He actually had a following and perhaps even influenced other American cults…

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 12:49 PM

Their absurdly fictional account of reality amounts is belligerence.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM

That is excusing intentional deception. To actually believe those falsehoods you would have to be delusional at best. You cannot be intentionally stupid, therefore they know they are lying, they don’t care as long as they believe it will further their goals.

Rode Werk on August 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM

“Collective insanity” seems like a good name for it, but does it already have one? When an entire group of people have such hatred that they create a fantasy and then embrace it as reality—basing their actions and future plans on it—collective insanity has happened before and it resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM

Rode Werk on August 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM

I think you’re right, it’s intentional. At least in the beginning, but it tends to take on a life of it’s own and snowball.

…And the snowball is the dangerous part.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:57 PM

Lists like that are meant to provoke discussion and often to piss people off as a means to do so. Lewis misses the point and over generalizes as well. Of course, he got us talking about it, didn’t he?

SurferDoc on August 14, 2010 at 12:59 PM

I know that he’s repented, but perhaps the old Jim Bakker, too… or at least what he used to represent.

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:01 PM

Matt Lewis:

What number am I thinking of?

WRONG!

You stupid wingnuts never heard of the number 42?

JACKASSES!

Matt, why don’t you just ask, “as far as serial killers go, which are, like, the really bad ones“?

I think you’d get virtually 100% accuracy.

jeff_from_mpls on August 14, 2010 at 1:06 PM

When a 49-year-old President comes in second all time in worst figures in American history after only eighteen months as President, it shows a remarkable lack of perspective, and ignores at least the potential for redemption.

True enough, Ed. He should be first.

The Mega Independent on August 14, 2010 at 1:07 PM

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:01 PM

Get over to the PPP Palin dope smoking post..AnninCA is going over the edge..:)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM

“Collective insanity” seems like a good name for it, but does it already have one?

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM

Insanity would imply innocence, behavior they can’t control. Insidiousness is not innocent. I doubt they believe their own lies, but they believe in their goal. Religion would be more appropriate.

Rode Werk on August 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM

Get over to the PPP Palin dope smoking post..AnninCA is going over the edge..:)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM

Coming …

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:13 PM

The problem with just listing people and then counting numbers is that context gets lost

You said it right

There is no context besides citizenship, and ‘worst’ or ‘best’ require context

Tells you a lot more about the participants. Useful to observe how they jump to conclusions about the assignment

entagor on August 14, 2010 at 1:17 PM

What I don’t do is deliberately deceive and lie in order to achieve an end, and I don’t think most people on either side of the political divide engage in or condone that kind of activity, either.

I would disagree with you sir. The extreme liberal left of this country do that over and over and over. It’s pretty much the norm for them.

ButterflyDragon on August 14, 2010 at 1:19 PM

I believe we need to reestablish respect for political opponents. (Impossible? I think not.)

Barack Obama isn’t trying to destroy the country. It sure does look like it, which makes granting him respect difficult. But, how about it? He’s trying to do the right thing – he’s just really, really, really, extraordinarily bad at it.

Pablo Snooze on August 14, 2010 at 12:48 PM

We have gone down this road before. Many times. The left really is what we think they are. In fact, they usually turn out to be worse than what we suspected.

The ‘Gee, can’t we all get along crowd‘ don’t care however. They want to compromise because that way they get to feel adult and thoughtful regardless of what the truth might be.

We have the historical cooperation in the 1930′s with murderous communist regimes, the adoration of the newest blood soaked killer, and the contacts with foreign government with the intent to destroy the US constitutional government. Bill ayers is not the exception with his links to the Weathermen.

FBI informant Larry Grathwohl testinfied…

“I asked, ‘Well what is going to happen to those people we can’t reeducate, that are diehard capitalists?’ And the reply was that they’d have to be eliminated.”

Grathwohl, who worked as an operative for law enforcement agencies in Cincinnati, said when he pursued the genocide issue further, the Weather Underground members “estimated they would have to eliminate 25 million people in these re-education centers.”

“And when I say ‘eliminate,’ I mean ‘kill,’” he continued. “Twenty-five million people.”

Obama’s political career was launched in Ayers’s home.

sharrukin on August 14, 2010 at 1:23 PM

The Left are not worse than serial killers, they ARE serial killers. Killers of our rights and freedoms!

griv on August 14, 2010 at 1:24 PM

Insanity would imply innocence, behavior they can’t control. Insidiousness is not innocent. I doubt they believe their own lies, but they believe in their goal. Religion would be more appropriate.

Rode Werk on August 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM

I agree that for many it is intentional, so maybe insanity isn’t the best word, but regardless of their original intent they have created a fiction and are basing their actions in the real world upon it. I agree with your point but I think it might still qualify as a form of insanity, especially with the “collective” modifier.

Any single one of them may know they’re lying, but when their lies are constantly reinforced by their collective media I suspect that, while they may still realize deep down that it’s a fantasy, they set that aside and don’t think about it; compartmentalize it to ease their own conscience.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 1:27 PM

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:09 PM

Wow… on fire…

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:29 PM

Deception in almost every conceivable context is not only immoral, but damaging to one’s credibility.

Not if you’re a Leftist Democrat. To them, deception is a way of life, and essential.

And when they intentionally deceive people, they are rewarded by their peers for their deceptive behavior. See “Bill Clinton”, “Al Gore”, “Michael Moore”, and “Dan Rather”.

Del Dolemonte on August 14, 2010 at 1:33 PM

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:29 PM

You are asking for trouble when you start too early in the day drinking wine..:)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:34 PM

How conservatives can still be so naive about the liberal left is beyond me.

The Liberal Left sees no difference between Ring Wing Christian Conservatives and the Jeffrey Dahmer’s of the world. If you asked 10 liberals today who was worse, George W. Bush or Jeffrey Dahmer, I guarantee you that 8 of them would say George W.Bush. The other two don’t know who Dahmer was so would check “don’t know”.

Conservatives, on the other hand, would never include someone like Dahmer (or Manson or Bundy or other murderer) in with political figures because it would never occur to them to. They don’t think like liberals do.

As far as deceiving being ends-justifies-means, most liberals don’t even have to deceive. They really believe the bullsh*t they spew because they believe if they think something is true it is true and is therefore not a lie. What they think is true is in direct opposition to what they think conservatives believe.

Jaynie59 on August 14, 2010 at 1:36 PM

I hate to be the heavy here, but I think most of you are mistaken about who the worst people in our society are. Neither serial killers nor the most notorious lying, thieving, politicians would make the list for me.

For me, the worst people in America are the people that attack and brain-wash our children. The reason is simple, nearly EVERY liberal loon that I know was “messed-up” by an adult when they were a child or young adult. It’s “the gift that keeps on giving”, because once these people are messed-up in the head, the liklihood is that they are going to be responsible for a LIFETIME of damage that they seem to be compelled to inflict upon others.

So, while one could make an argument that George Tiller, and Margaret Sanger SHOULD make the list, I am FAR more concerned about the priest or scout leader than molests children, the Marxist college professor that teaches situation ethics, the big-league ball player or basketball player that uses drugs and treats women like sex objects, and the Hollywood starlet that all of our young girls want to pattern themselves after, the movie producer that litters the theatres with garbage, and most of all, the people that FUND this stuff, like George Soros and Ted Turner. THESE are the worst people in America. Some of them might be living right next door to you.

CyberCipher on August 14, 2010 at 1:38 PM

BCrago66 on August 14, 2010 at 11:47 AM

Brilliant satire!

Del Dolemonte on August 14, 2010 at 1:39 PM

You are asking for trouble when you start too early in the day drinking wine..:)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:34 PM

Heh… she kind of has a point, though.

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Manson is kind of like Jim Jones in that he didn’t personally kill anyone. In that way, they were political figures who caused death and misery through influence, but not nearly in the numbers of much more influential people.

Dahmer ate a few blacks but Sharpton destroyed millions of black souls. Who is worse?

Buddahpundit on August 14, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Heh… she kind of has a point, though.

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Yeah she does have a point.. :)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Yes al sharpton is worse than Charles Manson.

Knuterockne on August 14, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Heh… she kind of has a point, though.

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:40 PM

yes she does.

unseen on August 14, 2010 at 1:47 PM

Yeah she does have a point.. :)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:44 PM

yes she does.

unseen on August 14, 2010 at 1:47 PM

So as not to draw attention from The All Seeing Eye, and to stay on topic with Ed’s interesting post… I’m just going to say that Palin bashers might just make the list for their hyperbolic ways …

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:50 PM

Yeah she does have a point.. :)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Although it is small..IMHO..:)

Dire Straits on August 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM

I’m just going to say that Palin bashers might just make the list for their hyperbolic ways …

MeatHeadinCA on August 14, 2010 at 1:50 PM

I wouldn’t go that far. partisans are not default evil their evil comes when they lie/omit/slant the news to put their candidate in a better light or their anti-candidate in a wrose light.

As a Palin supporter I see she has faults and have no problem with people that state those faults as reasons not to vote for her. My problem with the anti=palin crowd is they fail to hold their candidates to the same standard.

allah bashing Palin for her contributions to candidates from her PAC in the 1st qrt is a great example. she didn’t give that much so allah attacked her and created a theme. When the truth came out that Palin gave more than Mitt’s Pac to candidates in the 1st qrt allah failed to post on it, failed to mention it and allowed his orginal attack to stand.

Ed talks about context and yet he does the same thing in failing to place Palin in the proper context in a lot of his posts. Or he fails to report on some positive Palin news while gleefully blogging about her tabloid events.

Allah and Ed say its for hits but that is the same excuse the MSM uses to justify their slanted coverage. It just doesn’t wash.

unseen on August 14, 2010 at 1:58 PM

CyberCipher on August 14, 2010 at 1:38 PM

Compelling point.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 1:59 PM

coldwarrior on August 14, 2010 at 10:53 AM

That pretty much covers my thoughts about this. The scope of the impact is the thing.

How widely the harm is spread, how long it lasts, and how difficult (if possible) to undo are the criteria I would use were I to attempt such a list.

hillbillyjim on August 14, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Compare the number killed by, say, Jeffrey Dahmer with the number of people who will ultimately die because of Obamacare, or the number who will die because this president is mismanaging our foreign policy. The serial killers go way down on the list.

The only exception is the serial killers who were mass murdering politicians like Mao, Stalin, and Che G.

njcommuter on August 14, 2010 at 2:36 PM

njcommuter on August 14, 2010 at 2:36 PM

Or the number of Americans that die because the ruling class refuses to enforce our immigration laws.

FloatingRock on August 14, 2010 at 2:46 PM

Obama’s just bitterly clinging to religion by endorsing that mosque…..the rest of the islamofascists are bitterly clinging also…to their religion and their suicide vests.

ted c on August 14, 2010 at 2:59 PM

Ed repeatedly emphasizes the important of context. Stop for a moment and consider this:

How much column space do Richard Speck, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacey receive in American History textbooks? Just about zero. They were important as aberations, tragedies in a long, long chain of human sociopaths.

They were not historical figures.

Peri Winkle on August 14, 2010 at 3:04 PM

Update III: ignore Rick Moran. He’s a moron.

moochy on August 14, 2010 at 3:41 PM

Jamie Gorelick. That chick has been involved in every disaster in the last ten years.

carbon_footprint on August 14, 2010 at 3:53 PM

For years, leftists and more recently, the Daily Kooks, have equated anyone who disagreed with their politics to Hitler. We heard it for the 8 years of Bush. When those idiots start doing that, it lets me know that I’m dealing with people who have extremely low IQs and not to waste my time worrying about them.

slug on August 14, 2010 at 3:54 PM

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