Ding Dong, Dong-Feng!
posted at 3:00 pm on August 8, 2010 by J.E. Dyer
Allahpundit laid down the gauntlet with this question on China’s new anti-carrier weapon, the Dong Feng-21D ballistic missile:
Exit question for military (preferably naval) readers: Big trouble here or overblown?
Answer from this naval reader: both. Perhaps “overblown” isn’t the right expression, so much as “blown by rogue winds and widely misunderstood.” Allow me to explain.
The DF-21D isn’t a weapon we have no defenses against. In fact, the US Navy’s Standard Missile (anti-air missile) program and ballistic missile defense (BMD) upgrade to the Aegis tracking and guidance system are the right defenses to deal with it.
Much is frequently made of how fast the DF-21D would be approaching its target in the terminal phase, but the gee-whiz aspect of that is overblown: it’s a ballistic missile. Of course it comes down really fast at the end. That’s what they do. The US has been working on ballistic missile defenses, afloat and ashore, for nearly 30 years now; the speed at which they plummet toward the earth is not a surprise.
We have also proven our ability to intercept ballistic missiles coming down at high speeds from extra-atmospheric apogees – although here our success has been slow, and proven mainly in controlled test conditions. Almost all of the just-above-50% success rate has been achieved in the last decade (looking only at the last decade’s testing, the success rate is more like 80%).
That said, a ballistic missile coming down at a carrier is a different and faster-moving problem than an anti-ship cruise missile coming at a carrier. Most of the cruise missiles out there (which fly like airplanes) are subsonic, and therefore relatively easy to shoot down. The supersonic Russian-designed SS-N-22 Sunburn (or MKB Raduga) missile is an exception, and China does have that missile, as a weapon system on Sovremenny-class destroyers purchased from Russia. (I note that cruise missiles aren’t the best weapon to use against a carrier anyway; they’ll be more likely to be used against escort ships and merchants.)
But the geometry of the ballistic missile problem is in a class of its own. That’s what makes the DF-21D a potential game-changer: the fact that the geometry of the problem, and the defensive tactics it would require, impose significant operational constraints.
Let me open that discussion with the observation that the fundamental significance of any of this will depend heavily on how effective the DF-21D’s terminal guidance is. Unless China wants to just lob warheads out there to plop harmlessly in the ocean, the DF-21D will have to have a form or forms of effective terminal guidance. Ships are moving targets, and for a ballistic missile, close will mean no cigar. The DF-21D will reportedly have multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRVs), unquestionably complicating the defensive picture, but the likelihood of any individual hit will be extremely low without hard-to-evade guidance. There’s a good discussion on that here; the hardest guidance to evade is infrared (IR) homing, followed by radar homing.
Supposing China can make the DF-21D home on targets to a level 50% as good as “perfect,” and supposing our own missile defenses function better with each passing year, we have a difficult but bounded problem. And the big problem is not that we can’t defend our carriers at all, it’s that defending them would levy so many constraints on our operations. In effect, the DF-21D is a harassment weapon, and a darn good one, if it works as it’s intended to.
Our carriers don’t carry ballistic missile defenses, for starters. The Aegis ships – cruisers and destroyers – would have to defend them. To some extent we already operate that way; a carrier is virtually never without an Aegis escort when it’s deployed forward. But one is generally deemed enough; against enemy attack aircraft or cruise missiles, the carrier’s own defenses are effective and will catch close-in threats that slip through the Aegis net. The carrier can defend itself from air threats with its fighter aircraft and short-range anti-air missiles – but these aren’t defenses against ballistic missiles.
If China can launch a barrage of MIRVed DF-21Ds, she can bog us down defending the carrier – or simply push us further offshore. But the further offshore we have to operate, the more vulnerable our carriers’ aircraft are when they are approaching targets on land. It’s not just the distance over which China has a shot at them, it’s that plus the fact that they will have to refuel in-air to get to the target and then back to “Mom” (the carrier).
The threat of a DF-21D barrage would also be a fouling agent for carrier flight operations. The most vulnerable time of all is when aircraft are being recovered at the end of a mission cycle. The Chinese know that. Naturally, they will time DF-21D salvos to coincide with recovery ops. When you’re trying to bring down 16 or 20 jet aircraft safely, you can’t keep changing course and speed and turning your electronics on and off. The carrier has to be a safe recovery platform for her aircraft, otherwise there’s no point – and that’s the highest-payoff vulnerability for an enemy to go after.
If the DF-21D is mainly a nuisance, these issues can be addressed in the medium term with tactics, while we look for longer-term fixes in technology. But the DF-21D will be only one of the disruptions a naval force faces. It’s probably not going to be a very effective way to literally “kill” a carrier for some years to come. A submarine nailing the carrier at the keel is a much better bet: take out propulsion, you take out the whole weapon system. Without propulsion, the carrier can’t make the 35 knots of wind over the deck that it needs to recover aircraft. And China has lots of submarines.
It’s the combination of weapons China can increasingly bring to bear that the US Navy is worried about. If we’ve got one big, honking set of tactical constraints imposed by the Chinese submarine threat, another posed by the Chinese attack aircraft threat, and another posed by supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, adding the DF-21D as a flight-ops harassment problem makes it that much harder for our forces to keep their heads above water: to use our weapons to actually attack the enemy, rather than just to defend ourselves.
(And yes, George and Meredith Friedman, authors of The Future of War, called this prospect for our carriers “senility,” and predicted it in theory, if not because of the particular threat posed by the DF-21D, back in the mid-1990s.)
This post was promoted from GreenRoom to HotAir.com.
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http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/china/articles/20100808.aspx
lorien1973 on August 8, 2010 at 3:07 PM
But, above all else, the US needs a leader as Commander in Chief.
JellyToast on August 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM
There is a counter to everything. A good tomahawk strike can neutralize any shore battery. The change is mainly aimed at shallower waters.
This missile isnt a threat to the US navy many miles away. This missiles purpose is to cut off Taiwan from the US. Its the political implications that are vital.
But will aid it would be easy for China to sell this to anti American forces. Iran with this missile can do what it did during the Iran/Iraq war. Threaten ships in the Persian Gulf.
William Amos on August 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM
hmmm…….does one think the “dong” has correlation in name to Bill Clinton? Maybe its virtually named after him?
I wonder if the dong has any of the Loral missle tech that the Clintons gave ChiComs for campaign money some 15 yrs ago……
sbark on August 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM
This is a depressing problem to deal with when we have a military hating pansy as commander in chief and a Congress that has spent trillions of dollars on wasted nonsense, thus putting the defense budget in peril in the future. Sigh.
karenhasfreedom on August 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM
ummmmm can you say “black-ops” to deal with the threat before it becomes reality…..just a thought
marktarheel on August 8, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Just hyped enough to give Obama an excuse to scrap all of our carriers, associated task forces, and fighter wings! He’s already scrapped the Marines amphibious forces for the same reason.
Dread Pirate Roberts VI on August 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM
Seeing as they more than likely use stolen US classified technology, it’s probably pretty damn good. Oppressive nations aren’t known for their innovation and invention.
darwin on August 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM
do we really have to worry about this if, according to Castro, we’re heading for nuclear holocaust anyway/?
kelley in virginia on August 8, 2010 at 3:13 PM
Excellent analysis.
I will put out one caveat. It is a ballistic missile. Ballistic Missile defense is a hot button issue.
However, the DF-21 is a missile designed to defeat conventional military targets, not destroy entire nations. So, would it violate the ABM to build weapons to defeat this threat? But building missiles and systems to defeat the DF-21 could and would allow us to build weapons and systems to defeat nuclear tipped ICBMs…
More and more I am coming to the conclusion that Ballistic Missile Defense is necessarily going to happen. It cannot be stopped.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 3:14 PM
Since it’s ballistic, the Chinese have a bigger problem. We simply launch retalitory strikes at it’s origination.
darwin on August 8, 2010 at 3:16 PM
Democrats will stop it.
darwin on August 8, 2010 at 3:21 PM
I would take a B-grade offense over an A-grade defense any day. Even a a C-grade offense, in great enough numbers, can defeat an A-grade defense.
Tav on August 8, 2010 at 3:22 PM
Never underestimate the ability of the ‘smart’ guy to be undone by a bunch of farmers and blacksmiths.
Limerick on August 8, 2010 at 3:22 PM
The first thing to go in a war situation is communications. It is incredibly unlikely to hit anything moving without communications.
So how likely is it that the Chinese strike first against the US? And even if they did, how likely is it that they hit ONE carrier before communications are gone? Unless this is going to become a spaced based weapon, most of the trip for it will be in a very visable launch.
If one takes the position that the Chinese control commuications, then they would not need a weapon like this. Seems like there are several unconsidered detals in this entire premise.
Freddy on August 8, 2010 at 3:22 PM
Ship board lasers can do the job … of course we don’t have any ship board lasers.
darwin on August 8, 2010 at 3:23 PM
It has a range of over a 1,000 miles.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 3:24 PM
Time to surrender! The concept of victory is awful..
signed, the lightworker…
rightwingyahooo on August 8, 2010 at 3:25 PM
It’s a clear threat, obviously, and yes, I’d wager a game changer.
Time to get real with China.
rightwingyahooo on August 8, 2010 at 3:26 PM
if the Chinese were successful with this then they could conquer us and install a Puppet Government in the White House…oh wait
Justrand on August 8, 2010 at 3:26 PM
Terminal Guidance is only part of the equation. If its guidance package is good enough then it can hit a carrier. But Terminal Guidance is useless if you kill the weapon 50 miles from impact.
If it does not have the ability to evade anti-missile defenses, its threat to Battle Groups is nil.
I doubt it will work. RoK, Japan and Australia are getting or already have Aegis. Taiwan would have it if not for our Chinese overlords.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 3:28 PM
This land based missile is a game changer. It is an area denial weapon we now have less chance of safety conducting near shore operations or into the littoral zone (<300miles) in /around china/taiwan. Moreover, if sold to folks like Iran who can use it within the Gulf, it really affects the game there because the distances from shore are much/much shorter and the reactions from the carriers/protective envelope have to be johnny on the spot. Any conflicts would have to include early in-shore bombing/anti missile tactics against these launchers to allow us freedom of movement to conduct near shore operations.
ted c on August 8, 2010 at 3:29 PM
No, because that would be raaacist!!!!!!
Conservative Gunman on August 8, 2010 at 3:29 PM
If we can juststay the course and win in Afghanistan all this will surly go away. Chinese Ding-dongs and Iranian A-bombs too.
Tav on August 8, 2010 at 3:30 PM
It has a range of over a 1,000 miles.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 3:24 PM
in Iranian hands it’d deny us access to the Persian Gulf for carrier operations. At least it’d increase the risk significantly.
ted c on August 8, 2010 at 3:30 PM
See the old TV show the Outer Limits “Hundred Days of the Dragon”.
Tav on August 8, 2010 at 3:32 PM
DF-21 will have a minimum range, probably a couple of hundred miles. If you are within that range, it is useless.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 3:32 PM
If we can prove that it was, can Clinton be charged with treason?
listens2glenn on August 8, 2010 at 3:33 PM
It complicates things and the possibility of the loss of a carrier, even if remote, will effect political decisions on the part of American politicians.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 3:34 PM
That would put the battle group within range of the far more numerous short ranged missiles.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 3:35 PM
I wish we had a few of these parked in the space over China, might change the equation a bit…
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-06/rods-god
Kinetic energy!
redshirt on August 8, 2010 at 3:36 PM
I find it to be highly unlikely Obowma would authorize a black op against his Chinese idols. We do need to get serious with China, but as long as we keep spending trillions on worthless bureaucracies, failed companies, and the libtards little social pet projects, as well as slashing military budgets, we don’t stand much of a chance of being taken seriously.
SG1_Conservative on August 8, 2010 at 3:36 PM
hmm. that’s good to know. getting within that range is key. I have faith that our navy will work to deny the use of this missile. It’s one thing to have a missile. It’s another thing to defend the launchers.
ted c on August 8, 2010 at 3:37 PM
Once again this threat is based around aircraft carriers being the US’ main threat, which isn’t correct. This was the linchpin of Soviet, and apparently now Chinese tactics. Even though, over the last decades, the United States has shown again and again that rumbling, stumbling, and bumbling head long carrier first is not our strategy. The United States relies far more on submarines for sea control, and deterrence.
Aircraft carriers would only be used once the US is reasonably certain of their safety. Our strategy is to gain control of the sea lanes and littoral areas first. Aircraft carriers are now used in the same sense that battleships were used during WW II, to project power in support of amphibious, and close in-shore conflicts. Submarines, and other combatants would, and will always be the first on the scene in a conflict.
A lot of the haram scarem also fails to take into account that no one can launch a missile without the US detecting it. Reading the current hand wringing and foot tapping about the DF-21D is borderline humorous. A layered defense is built into all of our operations; satellites, ship and air based missile defenses (keep in mind that the US developed air launched ABM capabilities over two decades ago), and submerged assets. The SM2 is not the be-all end-all, but rather one part of a layered defense.
Our tactics are also developed and implemented based on the adversary. If the adversary has no defense against an aircraft carrier than they will launch the opening salvo, there was no real threat posed by Afghanistan or Iraq. During the short conflict against Iran their only threat was a relatively incompetent submarine force which was sunk at the pier with the opening attacks.
I will acknowledge that President Obama is doing his best to end our military lead in defense.
Rode Werk on August 8, 2010 at 3:37 PM
All of this is a joke.
Any naval exchange between the US and China in off Taiwan would be a blood bath with China probably winning.
Any carriers would be sunk or damaged to the point of uselessness.
The number of weapons China could bring to bare would overwhelm defense.
While in Shanghai I sat in on a Chinese 3-D simulation of an attack on a US carrier battle group….the Chinese are getting their ducks in a row for Taiwan to reunite peacefully or by force.
It will happen eventually.
rickyricardo on August 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM
It depends on what its minimum range is. If it is as I expect to be around 200 or so kilometers then there is this sweet spot where a lot of those short-ranged anti-ship missiles do not have the range.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Very first reply crucifies this nonsense like it deserves.
And a shaming for the ‘naval reader’ who paid ~1000 words in lip service to this fraud.
rayra on August 8, 2010 at 3:44 PM
An interesting upshot is that it now becomes impassible to wage conventional warfare without ballistic missile defense.
Another interesting aspect of this is, the Dong-Feng is based of of a submarine launch-able missile, isn’t it? Potentially this thing can be converted to ship launched, giving them a much greater range of launching sites.
Next, according to Wikipedia, the program is using several satellites. It may be sat-guided, which means we can kill it with A-Sat weapons, and we have already proven that SM-3 can be used in the anti-satellite role.
Finally, how do we tell the difference between one of these and a nuke launch? As I recall, that is what sunk Conventional Trident, and it would seem to me that the most likely usage scenario for one of these would be to knock out the American carrier in the region as the start of an invasion of Taiwan, so we wouldn’t necessarily know in advance what was going on when we saw it launch.
This could get real fun, real fast, in that horribly not fun sort of way.
Voyager on August 8, 2010 at 3:45 PM
The M-9 has a range of 350+ miles and they have around 300.
The M-11 has a range of 175+ miles and they have 500-600 of those.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 3:48 PM
Dude, ixnay on the acts-fay! Disinformation doesn’t work if you CORRECT it!!!
Merovign on August 8, 2010 at 3:49 PM
No, silo or mobile land launcher. It is not a SLBM. Though its only a hop, a skip and a jump to go from this to a sub launched anti-ship ballistic missile.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 3:49 PM
We are wrong in assuming that we can continue to maintain any degree of overmatch against the Chinese in regards to naval capability when our current navy is being cut, downsized, genderized, and relatively unchallenged. Anti-ship capability is a real threat to be taken really seriously—whether it be a ballistic missile with MERV capability or a single warhead vs single ship launched in a cloud to overwhelm defenses. The chinese—both economically and militarily–are marching steadily and purposefully toward a true blue water naval capability and this defensive capability is proof positive that they are expanding their arsenal to deny sea lanes to US naval capabilities.
ted c on August 8, 2010 at 3:50 PM
I was referring to their anti-ship cruise missiles such as the C-803.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 3:52 PM
I fail to see why there is such alarm about this particular weapon. It takes a certain amount of choreography for a missile to strike a carrier. Modern US carriers are not easy to spot amongst a fleet despite what people might think. I know for a fact that the radar signature of the George Washington is not at all in proportion to its size at all and I am sure that when they are in full combat mode there are IR and other detection suppression measures we have yet to know about which would make a precise attack more difficult. The Soviets had similar if not stronger capabilities with the panoply of weapons they had at the end of the Cold War (ultra long range AEW killer missiles, carrier killing subs and surface assets). For a US Carrier to operate effectively in the areas sensitive to China they would be vulnerable to a range of weapons besides the missile everyone is so vexed about.
I would think that the sinking of a carrier would open up a whole world of pain in retaliation. Also, the US has other assets which are just as lethal to an amphibious assault without risking such vital surface assets.
It is important to watch what is going on in China but I think the fear over this weapon is overblown. For now China is more important as a creditor and trading partner rather than an adversary. For now, the recent ballet involving bordering nations seeking to offset China’s looming influence is more interesting to watch.
lexhamfox on August 8, 2010 at 3:55 PM
Never underestimate the shock and epiphany production of high tech war materials.
Speakup on August 8, 2010 at 4:00 PM
Excellent post.
Sorry to nitpick, but it’s bear not bare.
It would be bloody, but you’re presumption of a US defeat is idiotic. First see Road Werk’s post above. The carrier is not the lynchpin of our success. Carriers are needed for sure, but our aircraft, subs, and missile systems have come a long way since WWII. Plus the numbers you speak of will be mostly Cold War era Soviet merchandise. China is a threat to be sure, but their victory is far from a forgone conclusion.
SG1_Conservative on August 8, 2010 at 4:03 PM
Yes but the ‘potential’ for being a devastating weapon therefore its the demise of US navy projection everywhere – other examples would be Obamas ‘potential’ for healing the world – hence the Nobel Peace Prize
TheVer on August 8, 2010 at 4:06 PM
The reactions to this new missile have been overblown. Mr. Dyer has a good perspective on it all. We’ve been in naval arms races before. Most recently with the USSR only twenty years ago. Apparently we have many Nervous Nellies who don’t know their history. America still rules the waves, we will come up with even more effective counter weapons, Pax Americana is still in place and the morons in the WH will be replaced before the ChiComs can defeat us. Besides, the chumps own our debt. We can tell ‘em to back off or we won’t pay up.
JimP on August 8, 2010 at 4:10 PM
My apologies.
Rode Werk on August 8, 2010 at 4:12 PM
As an old sailor who spent one cruise on “Yankee Station,” off North Vietnam, on the USS Enterprise, I can say that if China or any potential enemy fired at a carrier, they could be opening a huge can of wup-ass. As you said, it is not just a carrier. It is a “carrier battle group.” Some of the battle group is above water. Some of it is hidden below water, carrying lots and lots of hell on earth. If China fired at a carrier, it would be WWIII.
Star20 on August 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM
The Russians thought so in 1904 before their fleet was sunk in the Yellow Sea by the Japanese.
I suspect Admiral Kimmel thought the same thing on Dec 6th, 1941.
The British certainly did before the Prince of Wales and the Repulse sailed from Singapore.
Maybe the nervous nellies know their history better than you do?
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM
Their Submarine force is mostly conventional subs. A lot of them are Romeos which were first built by the Soviets in the 1950s.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 4:27 PM
Did they also show you the 3-D simulation of an Ohio class boomer launching a couple of hundred nuclear warheads at China immediately afterward from somewhere around the coast of Australia?
I didn’t think so.
trigon on August 8, 2010 at 4:30 PM
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM
LOL. Oh please. Give me a break. You just proved my point about NOT knowing history. Our armed forces have responded with adequate weapons in the recent past and there is no reason to assume they will not do the same again. Please note sharrukin that I did not say we can happily sleep because we will rule the waves forever while standing pat. You are hitting the PANIC button. “Oooooh! The ChiComs have a threatening weapon. Eeeeek! It’s over! We’er DOOMED!!” Take a blue pill, dude, and call me in ten years.
JimP on August 8, 2010 at 4:30 PM
Thank God for our subs
http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/usnukes.html#sea
Just imagine a sub with 24 ICBMs that each have 8 100 kiloton nukes.
esnap on August 8, 2010 at 4:35 PM
If your point is that nothing can possibly threaten American dominance then it is wrong. If your point is that the navy will attempt to counter the Chinese weapon systems, then it is a rather obvious one.
The historical example I gave, and there are more, would suggest a certain amount of caution and respect for potential adversaries is always a good idea. The arrogance you display has led to disasters in the past and I have no wish to see them repeated.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM
The corruption in China is equally if not more destructive to innovation and invention. From the article lorien1973 posted,
Yakko77 on August 8, 2010 at 4:39 PM
SSBN’s.
BallisticBob on August 8, 2010 at 4:40 PM
Four of the 18 ballistic-missile subs no longer carry nuclear-tipped Trident missiles. Instead, they hold up to 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles each, capable of hitting anything within 1,000 miles with non-nuclear warheads.
BallisticBob on August 8, 2010 at 4:45 PM
Okay. Here is the deal.
The Battle of Tsushima. The Russians sailed their Baltic Fleet 18,000 nautical miles and faced a Japanese Navy roughly 3 times their size, in Japan’s Backyard.
Pearl Harbor. The Japanese used a revolutionary weapon (a lot of them to be precise) on ships that were obsolete and at anchor. The Japanese disinformation campaign to enable the attack was so well done intelligence guys thought the carriers were still docked in Kure.
Singapore. The Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk by aircraft. They had no air cover and only 4 Destroyers as escort.
The DF-21 is not a new revolutionary weapon. It is simply the melding of the Ballistic Missile and the Anti-Ship Missile, both of which were first used in the 2nd World War. A truly revolutionary weapon would be Project Thor or Rods from the Gods, or a space based warship that had the capability to pull off radical maneuvers in orbit.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 4:49 PM
It’s one worry among a few.
The real problem is that in a world of oceans, we have only 290 warships left. 174 (61%) are underway today. 36 subs (65%) are underway today. We have few reserves, and our ship building program has major issues. See CDR Salamander’s blog for details.
FWIW, after crossing the Atlantic 7 times (10 days per crossing), crossing the Pacific seemed to take forever (20 days). It’s a very big ocean to cover, even with an entire carrier battle group.
The US relies on powerful allies, has increased forces in the Pacific (esp Guam) and practices sea control, a lot. It’s not just our SSNs, we have a few SSGNs, and the JMDF has highly capable subs. South Korea’s and Singapore’s maritime forces are also relatively strong. The US has been preparing for this for over a decade. I had two earlier posts (in the Green Room) that address this directly, with references.
NaCly dog on August 8, 2010 at 5:00 PM
Good point. Also, I believe that we have some TLAM (N)s still available, if needed.
The Stupid Shall be Punished, the finest submarine blog out there IMHO, had a recent thread on how two of those SSGN’s surfaced in the Indian Ocean and Western Pacific on the same day. Now you see them, soon you won’t.
NaCly dog on August 8, 2010 at 5:05 PM
This “wonder” weapon has to be launched…we track those launches and retaliate precisely…any attack is always weighed against the odds and effectiveness of a counter attack.
I am safe to say, the counter attack would be precise, quick, and effective.
When you strike the first blow, you better be sure it does the job it is intended…I am not sure they have the capability to do such.
I figure if we can survive the “mother of all wars”, a few missiles won’t deter us.
right2bright on August 8, 2010 at 5:05 PM
Thank you once again, Mr. Dyer, for pointing out that a little information is just that. Insufficient for judgment. Visit HA often.
Caststeel on August 8, 2010 at 5:11 PM
I seem to remember the same kind of media fear and hysteria drummed up over the Russian T-72 and T-80 tanks. Also the Silkworm missiles deployed to the Gulf of Hormus. We all know how well the former performed in Gulf War I and II.
As a rule the US doesn’t send an Aircraft Carrier (Missile Magnet) anywhere without an appropriate screening force of frigates, tin cans, oilers, replenishment ships and submarines keeping the Big Stick company.
Just sayin’.
Jack.
Jack Deth on August 8, 2010 at 5:14 PM
Numbers to crunch.
US Seventh Fleet has two Ticonderoga class Cruisers each can carry 122 RIM-156 SM-2ER Block IV (this can be used against Ballistic missiles in terminal phase). A grand total of 244 missiles.
USSEVFLT also has 7 Arleigh Burke destroyers which usually carry 96 RIM-66 SM-2s which are shorter ranged. They might be able to be re-equipped with SM-2ERs. That would give Seventh Fleet a total of 916 missiles capable of dealing with DF-21D.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 5:17 PM
What year?
Oldnuke on August 8, 2010 at 5:25 PM
It has been that way since forever. There was fear about the Mig-25. Remember Sputnik? I seem to recall the invention of the Anti-Tank Guided Missile and Nervous Nellies screaming that we would loose the next war because all of our tanks would get blown apart.
I am sure if we go back far enough we’d see Greek Nervous Nellies screaming about the imminent destruction of Greek Cities at the hands of The Immortals.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 5:27 PM
A Second Opinion that agrees with the first.
It adds the information that this bird has yet to launch!
WTF. I gave up boogy men longer ago than most of you at HA.
Caststeel on August 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM
I remember both of them very well. I was about 12 when Sputnik was launched. Our entire country was outraged. The negative response that our government got because they had actually allowed the commies to beat us into orbit was an almost palpable force. A lot of people credit Kennedy with our setting foot on the moon in 1969. I credit Khrushchev and Sputnik. Kennedy just defined the mission the momentum and desire was already there and he just rode the wave.
Oldnuke on August 8, 2010 at 5:38 PM
Not saying we should surrender tomorrow at 9 am. Just saying, they intend to try us, seriously so, and we had better watch it.
Up until recently, a conflict with the Chinese would have been laughably one-sided. No longer laughably, and maybe not so one sided any more.
Just sayin…
rightwingyahooo on August 8, 2010 at 5:41 PM
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM
Again LOL. If you were not in full panic mode, you would not have read arrogance into my statements. You cite the Battle of Tsushima Strait, Pearl Harbor and the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse as a reaction to me pointing out that we are not defeated as yet and the Nervous Nellies like you should calm down and recall history wherein we have developed counter weapons to threats for over half a century. That’s panic mode, buddy. Please note sharrukin the naval disasters you cite are 68 to 105 years old. Much has changed in our military preparedness since Pearl Harbor, my friend. Do you recall anything about the Cold War at all? Why haven’t you noticed the changes the last 3/4 of a century?
Then when caught being a Nelly you accuse me of being arrogant. Even after my second comment wherein I said, “Our armed forces have responded with adequate weapons in the recent past and there is no reason to assume they will not do the same again.” To say in response, “… a certain amount of caution and respect for potential adversaries is always a good idea” to me shows a determination to misread/misinterpret what I wrote, or that you have lost control of your bladder over the reports of the Dong Feng 21D and are attacking me because you are in a panic and can’t attack the ChiComs. This phenominon is called displacement. Now, take TWO blue pills and call me in ten years.
JimP on August 8, 2010 at 5:57 PM
I think you need to grow up and understand that LOL isn’t an actual response in anything other than your PS3 playland.
There have been no large scale military conflicts since world war two, and almost no naval conflicts at all, so what naval disasters in what wars were you expecting to see?
When missiles have been used in the minor conflicts they have been far more effective than expected.
In 1967 a SS-N-2 Styx sank the Eilat.
In 1971 the Khaibar, Muhaviz, Shahjahan, Dacca, and the Venus Challenger were sunk by Styx missiles.
In 1982 HMS Glamorgan, HMS Sheffield, and the Atlantic Conveyor were taken out by Exocets. The Argentinians had only a handful of missiles.
In 1987 the Stark was also taken out by an Exocet.
In 2006 a Saar 5, the Hanit was hit by a C-802 off Lebanon.
But, hey don’t worry. Throw in some LOL’s and maybe an !!!1!!!!111!!!!, and if its really bothers you, perhaps some ‘Hey Duuudes’.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM
LOL, one more time (indicating that I am laughing at your comments while I type my responses). You know darn well that I am not saying don’t worry. How many times do I have to go over it for you? Obviously many many times. If you re-read my comments while not in panic mode it is clear I am neither arrogant, complacent or saying don’t worry. Now, you are projecting as well as displacing. Which is further indication that you are in panic mode.
Nice job ignoring what I have actually been saying that any calm, rational person would understand. But hey, don’t let that get in the way of your total meltdown, dude. Have at it. I am getting a tremendous kick out of seeing you get all wee-weed up by misreading my comments and your ridiculous reponses. I can hardly wait for your next comment.
JimP on August 8, 2010 at 6:36 PM
Don’t forget to thank Clinton for selling the Chinese the necessary technology to get here during his term!!!
melachiro on August 8, 2010 at 6:38 PM
This article presumes that we’ll continue working on missile defense.
Our Democrats have a serious ingenuity block in their brains. Many lack faith that missile defense will work at all. (As opposed to their faith in man made global warming 50 years from now that will assuredly melt the earth) Many believe it’s better to remain defenseless against incoming missiles.
Case in point: Obama just cancelled work on a mirved (multiple kill vehicles) version of an interceptor missile, saying it was unproven.
He also cancelled the airborne laser, designed for hitting missiles at the time when they are slowest, at the boost phase. (This weapon has been tested successfully)
This type of Democrat obstruction has been a problem ever since missile defense was envisioned, and I don’t see it going away unless they all are voted out of office.
scotash on August 8, 2010 at 6:46 PM
We stepped out of the ABM treaty during W’s watch, as our ABM tech started being ready for prime time.
Good move.
Who is John Galt on August 8, 2010 at 6:50 PM
Obama has probably already signed an treaty with our Chinese Landlord, in exchange for trillions of dollars in loans at exorbitant interest, not to build an anti-missle defense.
But look on the bright side. Why would the Chinese destroy a carrier they already own. (No more than they’d destroy a president they already own.)
MaiDee on August 8, 2010 at 6:58 PM
Oldnuke on August 8, 2010 at 5:25 PM,
I was on “The Big E” in ’67 & ’68, in the OE division, before spending time with the Mekong Delta Mobile Riverine Force. I still have great affection for The Big E and my time spent on her. Ahhh, Subic Bay, Olongapo, Hong Kong, Pearl, Manila. It makes me kind of misty…..
Star20 on August 8, 2010 at 6:59 PM
Just for the sake of conversation, this IS the same China that makes all that defective, poison coated crap that we buy, right?
Star20 on August 8, 2010 at 7:01 PM
A well written analysis — followed by a number of ignorant comments. Yes: Submarines plus ballistic missiles plus supersonic anti-ship missiles, deployed effectively, can halt a carrier task force. Deployed effectively, it could halt the US ability to respond to a full on invasion of Taiwan. Or halt the ability of the US to respond to an invasion of S. Korea by N. Korea. For a while.
However, that also means a full scale shooting war. Actual war. Not harassment, not “incidents”, not “accidents”. It means actual United States versus China WAR.
Having the capability does not mean it will be deployed. We have the capability to turn the nation of Iran into radioactive glass. Doesn’t mean we are going to do it. And just because China may develop the capability to halt our carrier ops within a battle theater “for a while” — doesn’t mean they will do so.
Sometimes is advantageous for a country to be able to send a message: “We could have but we didn’t.”
SunSword on August 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM
I hope they still have room for all those when they are refitted for coed deployment.
pannw on August 8, 2010 at 7:24 PM
Nice of you to chime in, professor. Listen up the rest of you hicks, more intelligent comments next time.
Bishop on August 8, 2010 at 7:24 PM
This is just Idiotic.
First, China’s military strength is entirely overblown by the western world. India is China’s main rival, along with russia in the east, and they are not wholly afraid of china.
China might have a very large standing army, but the fact of the matter is that their weapons are built with slave labor. They are, at best, unreliable, at worst a liability.
Where overwhelming numbers wont work, china has no foot to stand on. They do not have the natural resources to conduct large scale, drawn out military operations. In comparison, our war games, while having a high price dollar are still cheaper than china’s, who’s limited resources means they burn through more of them faster than we do.
China is the quintessential “Paper Tiger”. They have nasty claws, but no body to back it up. Given the chance, and we should have did this during the Korean war, we could break china’s back, and segment the country into about 5 major providences all working against one another.
China has a loud bark and a nasty bite for sure, but it’s hardly anything to worry about.
Taiwan will remain free as long as Taiwan wants to remain free.
Oust the liberals in America, get our economic engine back on track, get rid of free trade and institute Fair Trade, and china will go back down to a third world dictatorship within 5 years.
China’s main weakness is it’s lack of resources, we should do everything in our power to make sure it stays’ that way.
And the Nuclear Option should never be off the table. Our missiles, and our missile defense system is better than what is stated out loud and major military powers know it.
MadDogF on August 8, 2010 at 7:34 PM
Who’s holding “the Football”?
ChiComs are NOT afraid.
Who is John Galt on August 8, 2010 at 7:37 PM
I’m sure they’re working on it. We had it, but PC didn’t allow us to deploy it.
At least as far as we know…
Who is John Galt on August 8, 2010 at 7:41 PM
I was on the DLG(N)25 in 67 and 68. We ran a lot of plane guard and SAR for you in 67. In 68 we were in the yards for refueling and refit. We were back over in 69, but Enterprise missed that one because of the fire. We were the ones who could keep up with you.
Oldnuke on August 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM
Read Matthew Bracken’s third book (the Blue one).
Who is John Galt on August 8, 2010 at 7:48 PM
None of those ships were part of a task force with modern weaponry and sensors. It is one thing to sink a WWII destroyer (the INS Eliat) or a ship with its defenses turned off (USS Stark and INS Hanit) or didn’t have much in the way of modern defenses (HMS Sheffeld) it is quiet another to sink a Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier protected by 50+ warplanes, several Aegis equipped Destroyers and Cruisers, anti-submarine frigates, a nuclear attack sub or two and several other assets.
Yes, this anti-ship missile is a threat. But it is not a war-winner. It is not a super weapon that has no defenses built to counter it. It is merely the merger of two weapons, a ballistic missile and the anti-ship missile both of which have been around since World War II. We already have defenses in the pipe-line or in fleet service that are more than capable of defeating this threat.
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 7:52 PM
The United States is not going to get into a nuclear exchange with China unless they use nuclear weapons first. They have ICBM’s capable of reaching the US and SSBN’s.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 7:54 PM
I agree. There are no super weapons. The problem I have is the all too confident reliance on defenses that have historically performed rather poorly. The British defenses were thought to be adequate against what the Argentinians had, which wasn’t much, and they did not perform well.
The Patriot for example did not perform even close to as well as they had hoped. They learned from that and improved it, but the point remains that theoretical capabilities are always downgraded during wartime. We hope the weapons will perform as advertised but they rarely do. Some exceed expectations as well, but we won’t know which is which until the test comes in combat.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 8:03 PM
Not sure what your point is about the SSBNs. If you don’t know where it is you can’t target it even if you have weapons capable of hitting it.
Oldnuke on August 8, 2010 at 8:06 PM
ummmmm can you say “black-ops” to deal with the threat before it becomes reality…..just a thought
marktarheel on August 8, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Can you say any launch of a DF-21D will be seen as a launch of an ICBM and will be retaliated in kind with our Trident II D5 Missile’s on our “boomers”?
Oh lookie here, I wonder if this was a message?
DSchoen on August 8, 2010 at 8:08 PM
Opps
Oh lookie here, I wonder if this was a message?
US NAVY fire 4 Trident II D5 Missiles
Lockheed Martin-Built Trident II D5 Missile Achieves New Record of 134 Successful Test Flights In A Row
SUNNYVALE, Calif., June 22nd, 2010 — The U.S. Navy conducted successful test flights June 8 and 9 of four Trident II D5 Fleet Ballistic Missiles (FBMs) built by Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT). The Navy launched the unarmed missiles from the submerged submarine USS Maryland (SSBN 738) in the Atlantic Ocean.
This test marked the 131st, 132nd, 133rd and 134th consecutive successful test flights of the Trident II D5 missile since 1989 – continuing a more than 20-year record of reliability that is unmatched by any other large ballistic missile or space launch vehicle.
DSchoen on August 8, 2010 at 8:09 PM
China has SSBN’s and can use them in response to an American nuclear strike.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 8:11 PM
Holger on August 8, 2010 at 7:52 PM
An excellent review of events more recent than Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Tsushima Strait. I wonder why you are the first to post this when we have a naval warfare expert posting comments that never pointed out these facts?
JimP on August 8, 2010 at 8:18 PM
Ok, I understand now. It looked like you were saying that the Chinese had weapons that could reach our boomers.
Oldnuke on August 8, 2010 at 8:20 PM
No chance. Their ASW capability isn’t even close to good enough.
sharrukin on August 8, 2010 at 8:23 PM
The Chinese are Communists.
Communists are good at two things.
Copying and lying.
Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be concerned, though.
TimBuk3 on August 8, 2010 at 8:26 PM
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