Obama AZ border claims false, say three … Democrats?

posted at 6:55 pm on July 5, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

When Barack Obama insisted last week that the southern border was more secure than at any time over the past 20 years, no one was surprised to hear Republicans scoffing at the claim.  However, they’re not the only people calling Obama’s claim false.  Three Arizona Democrats in Congress blasted Obama this weekend, worried that voters in their districts might hold them accountable for Obama’s posturing:

Anticipating a furor of voter criticism over the July Fourth recess, Democratic lawmakers from the border region shot back at the White House last week, challenging the president’s speech on immigration in which he said that the southern border is secure.

Arizona Democratic Reps. Ann Kirkpatrick, Harry Mitchell and Gabrielle Giffords joined a growing Republican chorus in denouncing President Barack Obama for not pushing for more specific action in his Thursday speech on the nation’s immigration and border security issues.

Obama said that the U.S.-Mexico border is more secure today than at any time in the past 20 years. But the three Arizona Democrats disagreed.

“The crisis on America’s borders won’t be addressed with words,” said Giffords. “I was disappointed to hear the president give short shrift to border security concerns by saying that our nation’s southern border is more secure today than at any time in the past 20 years.

“That is not a sign of progress, it is a statement on the poor job we have done in securing the border for the past two decades.”

Why have these Democrats broken ranks?  It’s not difficult to figure out their motivations.  Giffords represents a district that is narrowly Republican, according to the Cook Report (R+4).  She took office after the 2006 Democratic landslide in a district that went for Republicans in each of the past three presidential elections.  Giffords won’t have a chance in a border district if she lined up with Obama.

Giffords’ district is actually the most competitive of the three.  Mitchell has a bigger problem, with a district R+5 that also voted for Bush twice and McCain once in presidential elections.  Mitchell beat J. D. Hayworth in this suburban Phoenix district.  Kirkpatrick’s district is R+6 and has been represented by a Democrat for a total of eight years over the 62 years it has been in existence.  Rick Renzi’s troubled exit from Congress allowed her to win here in 2008, but she’s not going to escape scrutiny this time around.

Still, the defection of these Democrats seriously undermines Obama’s position on border security, as well as his attempt to redirect attention from it by attacking Arizona.  The three Democrats in the best position to corroborate his claims have instead refuted them and agreed with Republicans that the federal government is failing to do its job.  Unfortunately for these three Democrats, as essential as it is for them to distance themselves from Obama on this point before the midterms, it won’t do much good for them with the voters in their districts.  If the federal government is failing them, these districts will almost certainly end their experiments with Democratic representation in the House, regardless of which bandwagon the Democrats belatedly join.

Blowback

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Mr. Obvious strikes again but this time unbelievably with 3 Democrats in tow.

CWforFreedom on July 5, 2010 at 6:59 PM

What do the polls show on their re-election chances? I hope they get beat. I am sure they probably voted for the stimulus, obamacare, etc etc. They should be beat with those kinds of numbers in their district.

karenhasfreedom on July 5, 2010 at 7:01 PM

*Calling Capt. Kickass, Calling Capt. Kickass… renegade donkeys would like to talk to you about someone in need of kicking…*

ajacksonian on July 5, 2010 at 7:05 PM

What do the polls show on their re-election chances? I hope they get beat. I am sure they probably voted for the stimulus, obamacare, etc etc. They should be beat with those kinds of numbers in their district.

karenhasfreedom on July 5, 2010 at 7:01 PM

It’s a good question, but generally speaking the national pollsters don’t to Congressional races unless there is unusual news value in the race. The campaigns will start polling after the primaries, and in AZ that’s a ways off still.

Ed Morrissey on July 5, 2010 at 7:05 PM

Perhaps the 3 dems can wangle maximum border security out of Obama/Pelosi/Reid before the November elections, in return for their support on Cap & Trade etc. That’s the only thing that could save their seats. Wait. On second thought, throw the idiots out along with most of the dems. But the republicrats better stay awake and responsive to the voters THIS time, or we’ll throw their A$$es out too.

Woodman1954 on July 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM

Warm up the A-Bus.

txag92 on July 5, 2010 at 7:09 PM

What do the polls show on their re-election chances? I hope they get beat. I am sure they probably voted for the stimulus, obamacare, etc etc. They should be beat with those kinds of numbers in their district.

karenhasfreedom on July 5, 2010 at 7:01 PM

..Exactly…there is no such thing as a “blue dog democrat”…they have been voting with the Obama/Pelosi
agenda so their butts need to meet pavement.

Baxter Greene on July 5, 2010 at 7:09 PM

Hey it’s obvious, dead men walking …

tarpon on July 5, 2010 at 7:09 PM

Never have I seen a President lie so often as this one. Honestly, this man lies about everything as if the world will not fact check him because it’s him spewing the bull crap. This man is a pathological liar, lacks integrity and human character, and doesn’t seem to be one bit proud to be an American.

Keemo on July 5, 2010 at 7:10 PM

I think Scooter needs to go down there and give a speech. Remind Arizonians how secure they are and that the NG troops will be there only to stop cash and guns from flowing back south across the border.

a capella on July 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM

What did these 3 secure-the-border stalwarts have to say back in 2008 or in early 2009 when the PBHO tide was running high?

Pandering, wind-sock politicians are going to get us all killed if they aren’t ousted one after the other.

Bishop on July 5, 2010 at 7:20 PM

Woodman1954 on July 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM

Cap and Tax is toxic for Kirkpatrick. One of the Major Employers in her district is SRP and their three coal fired electric plants in Joseph City, St Johns and Springerville. She sprinted away from the house vote last year however her support for Porkulus and Obamacare should take care of her reelection hopes. The people are fairly pi**ed up here even though it is an extremely poor county. They’ve realized that hope and change hasn’t produced jobs and fed & state taxes aren’t enough to cushion the free fall. Apache county has run out of money and had to cut benefits to the bone.

chemman on July 5, 2010 at 7:33 PM

Giffords is my Congresswoman. I have been very hard on her in the past with my Tea Party videos like this one that Ed took the screen shot from! Thanx Ed :-)

I met her yesterday at a 4th of July event. We didn’t discuss this issue, but you gotta know that she is toast if she doesn’t criticize the feds. She has finally gotten around to some of the right answers when it comes to the border.

Her biggest problem is going to be her votes FOR Cap & Trade, FOR so-called stimulus, FOR Obamacare. She seems like a very nice person and I wish her no ill will, but I will be very happy when she is no longer representing me in the 8th District of Arizona.

Ordinary1 on July 5, 2010 at 7:38 PM

Ordinary1 on July 5, 2010 at 7:38 PM

Good comments.
(Pssst…BTW, nice website)

itsnotaboutme on July 5, 2010 at 7:50 PM

I believe these 3 Dems voted for ObamaControl & TARP – this should be their demise. All 3 also were against Prop 200 (when it passed overwhelmingly) & sided with McCain & Napolitano who were campainging for a NO vote. So their change of tune (like McCain’s) is only to get re-elected, they will then go back to their amnesty ways!

Kat13 on July 5, 2010 at 7:50 PM

I used to live in Phoenix up by 35th Avenue and Greenway. I love Phoenix and Arizona, but it probably isn’t the same as when I last lived there (1991). It is one of the places I would consider moving back to from the Midwest sometime, Austin is my number 1 choice though because I just love the spirit of Texasns and how gentlemanly the Texan men are in public. Right now, I am back in my snowy Midwest home state due to family obligations. I just turned down a chance to move my corporate HQ to Vermont. YIKES, how do you tell a company you are in negotiations to merge/buy that you could NEVER live in a lib/socialist state, EVER?? hehe. I was able to slide that one by, using my family obligations. Whew!!

When I first moved to AZ, McCain was still in the Houes and I lived in his district in Mesa. I voted for him then and for the Senate. Sigh, who knew he would become the bain or our existence now!!! I once was on a plane across the aisle from him back before he was famous in DC. He was very polite and unassuming. Read a book the whole way and asked for no special favors.

I think if they ever got amnesty through, Arizona will change forever and never be the same.

karenhasfreedom on July 5, 2010 at 7:51 PM

Aren’t you supposed to be on vacation Ed? :-)

Loud Talker

cannonball on July 5, 2010 at 7:54 PM

So damned what? If any of those democrats are re-elected, its because they’ve got idiots for constituents. Rarely with greater clarity can political motives be seen through. It’s all about political power and perks, to them, and if they didn’t turn on their tape recorders of Republicans and Conservatives and repeat after them, they could be looking at their gravy train coming to a halt, in their minds. I say dynamite the tracks and sack the train, anyway.

Virus-X on July 5, 2010 at 7:59 PM

Good comments.
(Pssst…BTW, nice website)

itsnotaboutme on July 5, 2010 at 7:50 PM

Thanx :-)

Ordinary1 on July 5, 2010 at 7:59 PM

~sniff…sniff…sniff~

jerrytbg on July 5, 2010 at 7:59 PM

Wouldn’t it be amusing (nice) if it’s a group of Dems that help get the GOP to finally move right?

MT on July 5, 2010 at 8:03 PM

“Obama said that the U.S.-Mexico border is more secure today than at any time in the past 20 years.”

That is actually true…

… but the parts of the border that we have given over to the invasion of drug and human smugglers from Mexico, enforced by the ZETAs, and warn United States Citizens to stay out of, not so much.

Seven Percent Solution on July 5, 2010 at 8:03 PM

Weary of all the things going/gone wrong in this country and nothing even distantly smacking of definitive being done about them. The Gulf, the southern border, unemployment, the deficit not to mention international problems. In my longish life I can’t recall a time where I felt that the country was so adrift as now. I wonder if that green room blogger who was getting out his security blanket would care to share.(OK, I thought whining would make me feel better, it isn’t)

jeanie on July 5, 2010 at 8:04 PM

What did these 3 secure-the-border stalwarts have to say back in 2008 or in early 2009 when the PBHO tide was running high?

Pandering, wind-sock politicians are going to get us all killed if they aren’t ousted one after the other.

Bishop on July 5, 2010 at 7:20 PM

Exactly. Hopefully that won’t be lost on Arizona voters.

SlaveDog on July 5, 2010 at 8:24 PM

When Barack Obama insisted last week that the southern border was more secure than at any time over the past 20 years, no one was surprised to hear Republicans scoffing at the claim.

He was saying this as gunfire, from Mexico, raked El Paso’s city hall!

Kinda like when Jack Nicholson said: “I want the people to know that they still have two out of three branches of the government working for them, and that ain’t bad.”

DSchoen on July 5, 2010 at 8:25 PM

Don’t forget the zero’s chances of reelection are enhanced with a republican congress to blame for everything that he causes.

Regardless of the flavor of Congress, 2 more years may be enough to destroy the republic. 6 more years would make it a certainty.

notagool on July 5, 2010 at 8:27 PM

Captain Kicka$$ lied ?
Again ???
I’m shocked
shocked I tell ya

macncheez on July 5, 2010 at 8:29 PM

Still, the defection of these Democrats seriously undermines Obama’s position on border security, as well as his attempt to redirect attention from it by attacking Arizona.

maybe these three are thirsty and they’re just angling for a brewski or two?

ted c on July 5, 2010 at 8:29 PM

Have these three Democrats any certain opponents or are there still primaries to be held? It rankles me to read of people like Gabrielle Giffords, who I remember well from ObamaCare, and not to see a name of her opponent who should be supported. Giffords was one of the maybe yes maybe no votes who Pelosi could not afford to be in the “no” column, so she was sacrificed on the altar of the socialist utopia.

Marcus on July 5, 2010 at 8:37 PM

Don’t forget the zero’s chances of reelection are enhanced with a republican congress to blame for everything that he causes.notagool on July 5, 2010 at 8:27 PM

The blame game is not going to work this time around in my opinion. Investigate and expose the truth for the citizens. All the majority of us need is the facts, and we will make the right decision every time. The MSM will be exposed for their huge role, as will every piece of the progressive machinery. No body will be in the mood for the blame game for quite some time. I think the citizens are going to deman answers and then accountability.

Keemo on July 5, 2010 at 8:39 PM

These dems are not following in the ways of Captain Kiss-ass.

Mojave Mark on July 5, 2010 at 8:43 PM

If these three dems voted for Obamacare and the stimulus debt package, it should make a lot of difference how they view the border issue. They will still be dead meat.

docdave on July 5, 2010 at 8:51 PM

PPP, democrat polling firm, notices a drop in support for Obama among Hispanics.

In light of the Arizona immigration law and Obama’s lack of a hard-line response, Hispanic support seems to have waned over the last two months.

Of course, it never crosses their mind that perhaps legal Hispanics AGREE with the Arizona law and are repudiating Obama’s weak response in that vein.

SouthernGent on July 5, 2010 at 8:54 PM

Have these three Democrats any certain opponents or are there still primaries to be held? It rankles me to read of people like Gabrielle Giffords, who I remember well from ObamaCare, and not to see a name of her opponent who should be supported. Giffords was one of the maybe yes maybe no votes who Pelosi could not afford to be in the “no” column, so she was sacrificed on the altar of the socialist utopia.

Marcus on July 5, 2010 at 8:37 PM

There are 4 Republicans running for the right to face Giffords in the General. All 4 are good men and any one of can beat her in November.

Jonathan Paton
Jesse Kelly
Brian Miller
Andy Goss

Ordinary1 on July 5, 2010 at 9:03 PM

Although AZ has not yet held our primaries (early Aug.). It does appear that Mrs Giffords is going to be up against Jesse Kelly in the main event.

She will then be free to move to Houston with her Astronaut husband.

Bye Bye Gabby, don’t let the door hit you!

Old Dog on July 5, 2010 at 9:04 PM

His fail is neverending. PBUH

RedNewEnglander on July 5, 2010 at 9:09 PM

Although AZ has not yet held our primaries (early Aug.). It does appear that Mrs Giffords is going to be up against Jesse Kelly in the main event.

She will then be free to move to Houston with her Astronaut husband.

Bye Bye Gabby, don’t let the door hit you!

Old Dog on July 5, 2010 at 9:04 PM

I agree almost completely. I think Paton has the upper hand, but Kelly is a strong candidate as well. It’s most likely between those two. Either way, bye bye Gabby! I think she will enjoy her life out of the spotlight.

I’ve done videos featuring both:

Jesse Kelly

Jonathan Paton

And another with Andy Goss at the end: Smart Girl Politics – Border Clean-up

Ordinary1 on July 5, 2010 at 9:13 PM

The border has never been more secure.

Jasper61 on July 5, 2010 at 9:48 PM

Bi-partisanship was one of Oblama campaign promises after all, work across the aisles and all that… yet big oops as this agreement was surely not his intention, along with his other flubs that haven’t been either. Don’t you just love the irony sometimes?

wubu on July 5, 2010 at 10:07 PM

What did these 3 secure-the-border stalwarts have to say back in 2008 or in early 2009 when the PBHO tide was running high?

Bishop on July 5, 2010 at 7:20 PM

Don’t know about the others, but Giffords was FOR health care, FOR Cap and Tax, FOR TARP, FOR Stimulus. This “independent” blue dog voted with Pelosi and Ried every single time. Like McCain, now that it’s election time, she’s coming back to AZ, claiming to be independent and conservative, using the border for her bonafides and thinking that those of us in her district are stupid enough to fall for it again. I can’t speak for my fellow voters because I saw through her BS the first and second times she ran, but I’m getting good vibes that her third term will not come to be. There are several good Republicans vieing for the nomination.

Oh, she doesn’t live here any more either. She married and moved to Texas to be with her husband (that’s fine, but she should have declined to run again). As it is, this is just like the old European aristocracy — she lives in Texas, but has a “quaint little legislative district in Arizona that she oversees”.

AZfederalist on July 5, 2010 at 10:10 PM

Obama is a deceiver, a dissembler
His Mom trousers are alight
From what pole or banner
Shall they dangle in the night?

What infernal serpent
Has lent him his forked tongue?
From what pit of foul deceit
Have all his whoppers sprung?

What red devil of mendacity
Grips his sick soul with such tenacity?
Will not one in a nation he so cruelly showers with lies
Put a shoe between his empty eyes?

PercyB on July 5, 2010 at 10:15 PM

Congressman Wilson was correct, the current occupant of public housing on Pennslyvania Ave is a LIAR!

Col.John Wm. Reed on July 5, 2010 at 10:17 PM

Love it when lefties fear reality.

Australia and Britain have gotten the message and are doign something again out of control immigration.

————

OT – Dana Perino doing a great job filling in for Greta.

Schadenfreude on July 5, 2010 at 10:19 PM

I think the Lyin Pinnochio has a plan for the illegals. Once he turns the United States into Cuba the illegals will flock back across the border to the money they’ve sent “home” and build a wall on their side. No Gringos allowed to sneak into Mexico to escape the oppression of the Demrat Chitown machine and redistributive reperations!

Walla no illegal problemo!
s/ I think!

dhunter on July 5, 2010 at 10:43 PM

Question: How do you know when Barack Hussein Obama is lying?

Answer: His lips are moving?

Question: How do you know when Obama is posturing and blowing smoke?

Answer: He holds his nose in the air like he is smelling passed gas, he has a snobbish appearance on his face, he speaks in a stilted, unpleasant, choppy form of pace and phrasing, and he is speaking.

Question: How do you know when Obama is trashing US citizens, fommenting hatred and violent attack against them, and kow towing to leftists, radicals, Islamicists, dictators, and thugs?

Answer: When does he ever NOT do such a thing?

William2006 on July 5, 2010 at 10:52 PM

Of course, it never crosses their mind that perhaps legal Hispanics AGREE with the Arizona law and are repudiating Obama’s weak response in that vein.

SouthernGent on July 5, 2010 at 8:54 PM

I would think that the legal ones would be very worried about any backlash caused by the illegals and their illegal activities. That is why they should stand up and be for secure borders and obeying the law, otherwise they will all, legals and illegals, be seen as people supporting illegal behaviour.

Mirimichi on July 5, 2010 at 10:55 PM

Giffords is not able to run away from him fast enough. She’s been a consistent supporter of the Obama/Pelosi/Reid agenda.

Come October, I’ll be standing on the northeast corner of Valencia and Kolb, Tucson, AZ, with my environmentally friendly commuter bicycle. My sign will extoll,

DUMP
GIFFORDS 2010
OBAMA 2012

She and he are already joined. My fellow AZ 8th constituents will have that reminder on their way home as election day approaches.

exdeadhead on July 5, 2010 at 11:08 PM

These three have got to go. It’s just not acceptable that Arizona currently has a democrat majority of our 8 congressional reps. I can accept Pastor and Grijalva as lost causes, but Giffords, Mitchell, and Kirkpatrick must be replaced.

This foxhole conversion regarding the border isn’t fooling anyone. They are reliable liberal votes for the Pelos/Reid/Obama agenda. They have got to go.

Did I mention, they have got to go?

azkag on July 5, 2010 at 11:34 PM

Do your job and secure our borders!

TN Mom on July 5, 2010 at 11:42 PM

Correction – s/b

Australia and Britain have gotten the message and are doing something again against out of control immigration.

Schadenfreude on July 6, 2010 at 12:12 AM

Giffords is Pelosi’s little puppet. Too little, too late, Gabby.

I live in Bisbee, exdeadhead, but I just may drive on up and join you on that corner. We can take turns going into the Shamrock for refreshments. lol.

Maggie45 on July 6, 2010 at 12:51 AM

I can accept Pastor and Grijalva as lost causes, but Giffords, Mitchell, and Kirkpatrick must be replaced.

azkag on July 5, 2010 at 11:34 PM

I know this is late to the thread, but there is someone running against Grijalva who may have a chance — Ruth McClung. She is young, bright, articulate and conservative. She has been making inroads into this heavily democrat district. Grijalva’s support for the AZ boycott has won her some support that she would not otherwise have received.

Grijalva fights dirty and definitely doesn’t follow the rules (he helped keep one of the perennial Republican contenders on the primary ballot despite the fact it was blatantly clear that said contender did not have the required number of valid signatures on his petitions for office. Grijalva had one of his attorneys make sure the case was well represented and tossed on technicalities.

Check out

AZfederalist on July 6, 2010 at 1:30 AM

Hmm, that should have been: http://www.ruth4az.com

AZfederalist on July 6, 2010 at 1:32 AM

I got to meet Ruth at an Arizona blogger meetup last month, and she is as AZfederalist describes her.

She’s also got at heck of a big task in front of her. To quote Jesse Ventura (back when he was semi-sane), Grijvalva is dug in like an Alabama tick.

ExUrbanKevin on July 6, 2010 at 1:44 AM

For some irony, Hillary Rodham Clinton said :

KRAKOW, Poland — Intolerant governments across the globe are “slowly crushing” activist and advocacy groups that play an essential role in the development of democracy, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Saturday.
She cited a broad range of countries where “the walls are closing in” on civic organizations such as unions, religious groups, rights advocates and other nongovernmental organizations that press for social change and shine a light on governments’ shortcomings.

And for a double dose of irony, President Obama’s office:

[T]he United States is particularly concerned about “the spread of restrictions on civil society, the growing use of law to curb rather than enhance freedom and widespread corruption that is undermining the faith of citizens in their governments.”

J_Crater on July 6, 2010 at 3:43 AM

They’ll change their tune if they’re still in office after the first Tuesday in November.

Dr. ZhivBlago on July 6, 2010 at 4:45 AM

They’ll change their tune if they’re still in office after the first Tuesday in November.

Dr. ZhivBlago on July 6, 2010 at 4:45 AM

along with mccain

cmsinaz on July 6, 2010 at 5:56 AM

I wonder if Barack will realize that he has the Reverse Midas Touch (everything he touches turns to crap) when, after he throws these three under the bus, they experience a sudden surge in the polls?!?!

DuctTapeMyBrain on July 6, 2010 at 7:08 AM

Australia and Britain have gotten the message and are doing something again against out of control immigration.

Schadenfreude on July 6, 2010 at 12:12 AM

Great Britain is a lost cause. Walk around many parts of London and you’d swear you were in Islamabad.

angryed on July 6, 2010 at 7:11 AM

this man lies about everything as if the world will not fact check him because…
Keemo on July 5, 2010 at 7:10 PM

Well, because they don’t…I haven’t seen any MSM refute his claim as the “safest”.
So why wouldn’t he say whatever he feels like saying, he isn’t held to a high standard, or even any standard.
I think people now just roll their eyes at what he says…and the rest, his unshakable 24% will never change, no matter how outlandish his statements.

right2bright on July 6, 2010 at 7:13 AM

Good to see lots of fellow 8th districters here. We’re all fed up with Gabby Giffords. She’s a phony, and has been from the start. She ran as a moderate, but has been a consistent supporter of the Obama/Pelosi big-government agenda, voting yes on TARP, the “stimulus”, Obamacare, etc., despite repeated pleas from her constituents to exercise some fiscal restaint and common sense.

Giffords’ recent pandering on the border security issue is particularly offensive; just last year, she was falsely accusing Tucson tea partiers of being a bunch of racists for wanting immigration laws enforced. Also, as other commenters have pointed out, Giffords doesn’t even live in Tucson anymore (she lives in Houston), so she doesn’t experience first-hand the misery we live with because of the border situation.

I don’t know about the other two AZ Democrats, but Giffords is done.

AZCoyote on July 6, 2010 at 7:25 AM

Looked up their records,all tow the Democrap line.They’re toast.

DDT on July 6, 2010 at 7:36 AM

Oops,I meant toe.But then again,tow isn’t all that inappropriate.

DDT on July 6, 2010 at 7:38 AM

Anyone in a border state dumb enough to vote for a Democrat, any Democrat, deserves what they get.

The rest of us do not.

A Democrat will say anything to get elected. We all know that.

We also know when the chips are down, they will follow their corrupt, incompetent, lunatic national party.

See Stupek, Bart.

NoDonkey on July 6, 2010 at 7:43 AM

Which border is secure? the real one or the new one with the lovely warning signs?

JoeDel on July 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM

Which border is secure? the real one or the new one with the lovely warning signs?

JoeDel on July 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM

Good point…it may be safer because we are keeping Americans away from their land, relinquishing it to the illegals and drug traders…so it may be “safer”.
Hey, if you stay 80 miles away from the border, you won’t have a problem.

right2bright on July 6, 2010 at 9:29 AM

They’re talking out of the other side of their mouths, the moderate side. Hope the voters in AZ wake up if they want to save their state.

Kissmygrits on July 6, 2010 at 10:07 AM

OT – Dana Perino doing a great job filling in for Greta.

It wouldn’t take much for me. I have a hard time taking Greta seriously after hearing she’s a scientologist.

slug on July 6, 2010 at 1:59 PM

As another 8th districter I can agree with what is being said thus far, Gabby is so history, and all four of her potential opponents are not afraid to express their conservativism. She did make some strides back by refusing to agree with our finger-pointer-in-chief. (I’ll be looking for you exdeadhead on Kolb ;o))

scott_lauritzen on July 6, 2010 at 3:40 PM