Quotes of the day

posted at 10:45 pm on June 25, 2010 by Allahpundit

The report concludes that fetuses under 24 weeks must be pain-free, because at that age the wiring doesn’t exist to send pain signals from nerves around the body to the cortex, the area of the brain where pain is experienced. At which later point such connections form is unknown, so analgesia should still be considered after 24 weeks, the RCOG says.

When Nebraska legislators debated the state’s new abortion law, it was claimed that fetuses must feel pain because they have the same reflex reactions to pain as children and adults. Templeton dismisses this reasoning. “There are indeed reflex responses, but in our view, because the nerves are not wired up to the cortex, they are reflex actions without experience of pain,” he says.

The report notes that the same reflexes are seen in seriously malformed fetuses that have no brain at all, and therefore can’t possibly experience pain.

***
Nebraska is the only U.S. state so far to ban abortion based on the concept of fetal pain. (Several states, including Minnesota, Oklahoma, and Texas, require doctors to tell patients that fetuses can feel pain after 20 weeks.) However, the very notion of a 20-week threshold is out of step with the U.S. medical consensus, as indicated by a 2005 review by The Journal of the American Medical Association, which found limited evidence “regarding the capacity for fetal pain” and that such pain was “unlikely before the third trimester” (28 weeks).

As NEWSWEEK has noted, Nebraska’s move is significant because it represents a direct challenge to the notion of “fetal viability”—the point at which the fetus is capable of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb. In the well-known 1992 case of Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the Supreme Court described this point, essentially 22 to 24 weeks, as the legitimate trigger where a state could outlaw abortion (with exceptions for the mother’s life or health). The Nebraska law moved the goalposts to earlier in a woman’s pregnancy—and this was a tremendous victory for anti-abortion activists. Little wonder the pro-choice lobby is likely to mount a constitutional challenge.

***
Dr. Steven Zielinski, an internal medicine physician from Oregon, is one of the leading researchers into the concept of fetal pain and published the first reports in the 1980s to validate research show evidence for it.

He has testified before Congress that an unborn child could feel pain at “eight-and-a-half weeks and possibly earlier” and that a baby before birth “under the right circumstances, is capable of crying.”…

Anand said many medical studies conclude that unborn babies are “very likely” to be “extremely sensitive to pain during the gestation of 20 to 30 weeks.”

“This is based on multiple lines of evidence,” Dr. Anand said. “Not just the lack of descending inhibitory fibers, but also the number of receptors in the skin, the level of expression of various chemicals, neurotransmitters, receptors, and things like that.”

Anand explained that later-term abortion procedures, such as a partial-birth abortion “would be likely to cause severe pain.”


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Comment pages: 1 2 3

I miss the good old days..I feel like we should be on code red alert constantly…it’s always something.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 1:56 AM

Obama being President and Beck informing us can do that…

MeatHeadinCA on June 26, 2010 at 2:00 AM

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 1:51 AM

HornetSting: Who was winning,Sodomy or the Stripper pole!!(sarc).

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 1:58 AM

Actually, it turned into another Battle of the Alamo…I think the stripper pole got sodomized, but if you have the words anal, oral sex…things are going to end up dirty.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

Did someone among us just pass out?

PS..I didn’t hear no drums.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

Emily M.: JB3 is off his rocker,your a great asset here,
I gave him my 2 cents as well!!!!:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:00 AM

Yeah, I saw. Thank you.

Emily M. on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

You forget Ernesto.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:02 AM

Canopfor..you are a bad seed!

Look, for the record..I’m pro-life. It seems we are somewhat all on the same team…but, like all good republicans, we can f*ck up a wet dream.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 1:52 AM

HornetSting:I’m against abortion as well,”Sticky Dreams”,
lol!!!:)

Oh,as long as my bad seed,isn’t from Demon
chickens a com’n home to roost,or,*shudder*,

Demon Sheep!!!haha:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:03 AM

You forget Ernesto.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:02 AM

Heh… I don’t think anyone here could.

MeatHeadinCA on June 26, 2010 at 2:03 AM

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM
You forget Ernesto.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:02 AM

You’re going to get me banned. Besides, I covered that…the stripper pole was sodomized.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:04 AM

You’re going to get me banned. Besides, I covered that…the stripper pole was sodomized.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:04 AM

*snort*

Anyway…

MeatHeadinCA on June 26, 2010 at 2:05 AM

Did someone among us just pass out?

PS..I didn’t hear no drums.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

I think the white coats finally arrived…either that or ugly got hungry and is eating corn.
Bleh.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:05 AM

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:05 AM

Or maybe I got him to chill out with puppeh cuteness.

Emily M. on June 26, 2010 at 2:06 AM

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 1:58 AM
======================
Actually, it turned into another Battle of the Alamo…I think the stripper pole got sodomized, but if you have the words anal, oral sex…things are going to end up dirty.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

HornetSting: I see a broadway play,in a Kabucki dance
of the demise of zee stripper pole,by the
Sodomites!hehe:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:06 AM

Did someone among us just pass out?

PS..I didn’t hear no drums.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

Dire Straits: Ya,theres a message,I`ll translate,

BOOM BOOM daBOOM DIDDY BOOM BOOM!!:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:08 AM

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:00 AM
============================
Yeah, I saw. Thank you.

Emily M. on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

Emily M.:At your service,that snuffing out comment was over
the top!!:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:09 AM

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:05 AM
Or maybe I got him to chill out with puppeh cuteness.

Emily M. on June 26, 2010 at 2:06 AM

Like a lullaby…you are a cool breeze, Emily M.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:10 AM

Did someone among us just pass out?

PS..I didn’t hear no drums.

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM

Dire Straits: I heard a rumour, that the individual
in question,accidently fell over board!:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:12 AM

Okay team,I was lurking,back to Ace Combat flying PS2
game,nite everyone!!—————————:)

canopfor on June 26, 2010 at 2:13 AM

OK, I’m gonna go pass out now. Later, guys.

MeatHeadinCA on June 26, 2010 at 2:13 AM

Night, Canopfor.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:14 AM

Okay, night guys. Maybe I’ll head out too and go cuddle with my own puppeh.

Emily M. on June 26, 2010 at 2:15 AM

Good night.

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:15 AM

HornetSting on June 26, 2010 at 2:04 AM

Allah has TOTALLY shut down two threads and there seems to be two main instigators.. Can you guess them??..Have we found a common thread?

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 2:16 AM

Their argument is based on the idea the brain is the central pain region and what delves out said pain. They claim they’ve seen the same reaction in fetus’ without brains, yet they have no explanation. The reaction needs to come from pain or just normal feeling, both which comes from the nerves, it can’t just come because……

Rbastid on June 26, 2010 at 2:49 AM

I truly hope life does begin at birth. I really do.

Because I simply cannot imagine how our whole species is going to feel the day somebody proves that life begins at conception.

If that’s true, we’re all complicit to a mass-murder that makes Stalin and Hitler look like rank amateurs.

I’m not even sure how we’d survive the collective shame.

It is a very, very good thing for the pro-abortion crowd that even in the dark of night, they’re able to never, ever ask themselves the obvious questions.

Professor Blather on June 26, 2010 at 3:06 AM

blatantblue, if it’s any comfort, I still haven’t figured out why Ugly got so mad at what you wrote. My best guess is the phrase about “balancing life against the desire to get the government off our backs,” was the “offensive” part.

There Goes The Neighborhood on June 26, 2010 at 3:10 AM

Hey, I’m sure they drug the old ladies up enough so they don’t feel any pain either.
`
And of course no one feels any pain after they’re dead, right? So it’s just the humane thing to do . . . heck, why don’t we just kill off everybody and eliminate all pain and suffering forever?

Adjoran on June 26, 2010 at 3:44 AM

Who cares!

They can not talk either. They can not play football or eat solid food or, lucky them, be forced to listen to NPR in rush hour traffic with six other folks who are flaming Libtards while Limbaugh is just a few clicks of the dial away.

They, the so-called fetuses, are still children. They are still alive. They are still human and aborting them is still homicide. Legal homicide yes unfortunately, but still homicide.

However, they do possess more active brain cells than 98.54% of Libtards.

Bubba Redneck on June 26, 2010 at 4:25 AM

If you take the word of SCIENCE (a religion of profound faith)……then these are just blobs of tissue floating around in the womb (pain?….pffft).

If you take the Psalm 139 approach you believe that every human being is fearfully and wonderfully made and a potential gift to mankind.

Take your pick……

PappyD61 on June 25, 2010 at 10:50 PM

I woke up to this thread, and I saw your post.

Thank you.

BuckeyeSam on June 26, 2010 at 5:15 AM

Look, it’s simple.

If you’re looking for a Clear Bright Line that is drawn between What Comes Before and What Comes After, there is only one:

Conception.

Before that moment, ten thousand sperm are vying to fertilize the egg. The genetic possibilities (except for male pattern baldness and several other female-carried traits) are endless.

But the microsecond that one single sperm penetrates the ova, it’s Game Over. We have a winner – a complete set of genetic material that determines eye, hair, and skin color, shape of nose, eye, and chin, predisposition to a huge variety of conditions and diseases, and so forth.

The rest is a matter of development, which is almost entirely dependent on environment.

Humanity begins at conception. There is no other scientifically valid point.

skydaddy on June 26, 2010 at 6:01 AM

It is an irrelevant point. Murdering someone in a painless manner doesn’t make it something else -it’s still 100% murder.

Obama and, by proxy, those that support him – call for cold-heartedly starving and dehydrating an already born child if the non-mother intended it to be aborted.

That, in my book, puts all these scientific pieces of justification of evil to shame.

It’s not a political issue, taking a helpless and innocent life is a very grave moral issue. -Can we do such evil and still call ourselves humans – never mind good people?

The answer everyone knows in their heart is -there is no choice!

Don L on June 26, 2010 at 6:04 AM

This is idiotic. A paralyzed man won’t feel pain in his legs, but I’m thinking it’s probably still illegal to stab him in his legs all day.

I’m sure you can do all sorts of things to humans that are terrible without causing them pain…lots of things that cause no physical pain are illegal.

TheBlueSite on June 26, 2010 at 6:04 AM

skydaddy on June 26, 2010 at 6:01 AM

Well said.

TheBigOldDog on June 26, 2010 at 7:09 AM

test

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 7:16 AM

I’m a Christian, but atheists can have a reverence for life as well. Nat Hentoff is a pretty well-known pro-life atheist from the left.

ddrintn on June 25, 2010 at 11:23 PM

Yes; thought this deserved a second look. The arguments against abortion are completely nonreligious, and I’m NOT prolife because I’m a Catholic Christian. I think I’m more actively prolife because I’m a Catholic Christian, because my faith tells me to move to defend helpless human beings. But it doesn’t tell me who those helpless human beings are. Science does.

That said, several well known atheists have become prolife, even activist prolifers, with this scientific knowledge coupled with their (God-given, whether they know it or not) strong sense of justice.

Don’t put down atheists. Many, many of them have a strong sense of morality, justice and respect for truth, and they can be our strong allies in the prolife fight. And actually this sense leads some of them to faith in the end — just former abortion clinic owner Carol Everett, and Bernard Nathanson (former abortionist and co-founder of NARAL who actually converted to Catholicism after a long period of being a prolife atheist).

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 7:17 AM

uh, just *ask* former abortion clinic owner…

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 7:18 AM

Most women who have aborted their children experience bleeding souls. Especially if they go on to raise a family.

The Left capitalizes on this crushing shame. If these women were to face what they did head-on, their grief would consume them. So they cower in quiet, tragic heartbreak. And abortion continues because too few speak out.

First, abortion can be forgiven. Peace is possible.

Second, there is hope. There is comfort in action. If women who are secretly traumatized would rise up and speak, abortion would be made so abhorrent that it would soon become illegal.

I pray this is happening even now. I pray women will find forgiveness and speak their trauma, so that many lives–and souls–will be saved.

Grace_is_sufficient on June 26, 2010 at 7:25 AM

Don’t put down atheists.

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 7:17 AM

Put all the names of pro-lifers on a cork board. Throw a dart. What a the chances your dart will hit the name of an atheist?

CWforFreedom on June 26, 2010 at 7:37 AM

The dream of every anti-choice person is all abortions become completely illegal. I’m sure most of the people posting here would be really happy if that were to happen. With that way of thinking there just aren’t any more pregnant women who can terminate their pregnancies. Ever hear of horseback riding? A quick fall down the stairs? A friend with a hell of an uppercut? A “doctor” in a hotel room with a coat hanger?

Before Roe v. Wade there were an awful lot of abortions. You just didn’t hear about them. How many teenage girls committed suicide in the past over the shame of becoming pregnant? Pregnant by daddy or uncle or brother? Professor Blather just a few posts above states that the pro-abortion(leading language, it’s choice or anti-choice. No one is pro abortion. Well, I’m sure there are some who are, there’s at least one in every crowd)side never asks the obvious questions. That’s an awfully presumptive statement. I think most women that undergo abortion procedures think about all kinds of questions, and it’s not easy for most to come to the conclusions they do.

The reality is that no politician will ever make abortion illegal. They all say they are “pro-life” during an election process, but when has overturning Roe v. Wade(which even being pro-choice myself is against my Libertarian leanings)been a priority of any President since Roe v Wade passed? The answer is none. There never will be. Anything to the contrary is wishful thinking. Not even the Republican Party as a whole will ever support making abortion illegal in spite of all the “sanctity of life” talk that flows freely at election time. There’s a lot of Republican women that aren’t ever going to go for it. The most prominent that comes to mind is Barbara Bush, wife of 41. They silenced her pro-choice stance Pravda style really fast back then. You might be against abortion but the reality is most of the anti-choice people are used for money and political support by people who realize legal abortion isn’t going anywhere….

adamsmith on June 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM

Amillia Taylor was born at the age of 22 weeks and six days, weighing only 10 oz. She is alive today and from the first moment she was born she cried and felt pain.

http://www.jillstanek.com/aborted-alive/worlds-youngest.html

Those who support the butchering of preborn children do not value human life.

Additional information: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/aborted_alive/

sinsing on June 26, 2010 at 8:06 AM

Put all the names of pro-lifers on a cork board. Throw a dart. What a the chances your dart will hit the name of an atheist?

CWforFreedom on June 26, 2010 at 7:37 AM

All due respect, I think perhaps the more pertinent question is, how much bigger could our chances on that corkboard become over the next 10 years of the prolife fight if we believers spent more time talking with atheists, appealing to the scientific facts about the unborn (still horribly, for lack of a better word, undisseminated) instead of writing them off as “amoral” (not true in the majority of cases; they are interested in morality if misguided in many cases) and unconvertable to the prolife cause?

And speaking of conversions, I don’t have the statistics but many, many people have come to faith via the prolife movement first, and NOT the other way around.

Makes me take another look at your corkboard in a Whole. New. Way.

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 8:10 AM

inviolet- i agree but you know the point of my post is very valid.

CWforFreedom on June 26, 2010 at 8:12 AM

legal abortion isn’t going anywhere….

adamsmith on June 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM

People said the same thing about slavery. One day we’ll look back as a nation and ask how we could have allowed such a thing to happen. Abortion will not be legal forever.

And about those pre=Roe v. Wade abortions, there were some thousands of attempts per year pre=Roe (even projecting from the much fewer ED visits after botched attempts). Now there are about 1.5 million per year.

Legality does make a difference, both in practice and in teaching young people what society considers acceptable.

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 8:14 AM

inviolet- i agree but you know the point of my post is very valid.

CWforFreedom on June 26, 2010 at 8:12 AM

You are right that there are extremely few atheists in comparison to believers who are prolife. Let’s strive to make it more, was my point, and I see you agree.

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 8:15 AM

No one is pro abortion. Well, I’m sure there are some who are, there’s at least one in every crowd)side never asks the obvious questions. – adamsmith

You contradicted yourself in your own post-but for the most part you have your talking points down-that and your use of the “anti-choice”.

The reality any restrictions on the disgusting practice of abortion will most likely come from the right. So in general the pro-lifer will vote for those on the right.

CWforFreedom on June 26, 2010 at 8:16 AM

No one is pro abortion.

“Why not? It’s just a removal of tissue from a woman’s body that makes her life much better. People should be pro abortion.”

This very claim, “no one is pro abortion,” gives the game away. Anyone who says it knows quite well that abortion takes an innocent human life and how wrong is, or they’d never say it.

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 8:24 AM

And because usually when I get into these discussions I’ve already posted these links, I’m aware that a lot of times women weren’t fully informed about the nature of the fetus (Planned Parenthood sure isn’t going to tell them), or felt tremendous pressure from people around them to have an abortion even if they didn’t want it, and it was legal so “it must be OK” even if their consciences told them otherwise:

Free, confidential help for you or someone you know who may be suffering after an abortion:

http://www.abortionchangesyou.com


http://www.hopeafterabortion.com

inviolet on June 26, 2010 at 8:29 AM

To be fair, Allahpundit laid out a case yesterday in the Gloria Steinem post that there can be a very persuasive scientific argument that it is murder. Personally, I don’t think the case for pro-life is any stronger based on religious views, per se.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2010 at 11:28 PM

As a Christian I agree. The religious arguments only work on those already religious but then set one up for the rebuttal that one is pushing a relgious edict and therefore it is unconstitutional. I think that error is one reason that some otherwise conservative religious folks are prochoice.

aikidoka on June 26, 2010 at 8:35 AM

adamsmith on June 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM

I’m impressed with your ability to be so blindly partisan and hypocritical so often with your blather.

aikidoka on June 26, 2010 at 8:39 AM

Hey, forget about the severe pain endured by the “fetus”.

We’re supposed to be engaged in a truce on this issue, right Gov. Daniels?

ceruleanblue on June 26, 2010 at 8:42 AM

By that logic, it’s OK to shoot a quadriplegic. He won’t feel pain. The inference is that if the fetus doesn’t feel pain, there is no other consciousness. I don’t think that’s the case.

NoFanofLibs on June 26, 2010 at 8:59 AM

There Goes The Neighborhood on June 26, 2010 at 3:10 AM

Just being honest. If that really sent him off the deep end, then he has a very intense problem in his personal life.

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 9:22 AM

Pain shmain. So if a life form feels no pain then it’s okay to kill? Well I’m so glad that’s been clarified. I’ll buy 4 gallons of tequila at the store today because there are about 4-5 people I’d love to kill.

It’s really simple. Don’t indiscriminately extinguish life. It doesn’t matter if it is a forest of trees being felled to make way for prefabricated houses, sharks for the sole purpose of cutting of their fin for soup, or human fetuses growing right in the body of another human being for the purpose of just not having to deal with this fresh life.

To think that extinguishing a life is okay just because it can’t feel pain is a false premise to begin with.

watson007 on June 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM

A human being in the womb is a human being in the womb, whether it can feel pain is irrelevant. Paraplegics can’t feel pain in certain parts of their body – are Paraplegics NOT human?

The argument of you can kill a child (human being) in the womb because it doesn’t feel pain doesn’t hold up for a variety of reasons.

It comes down to valuing human life in any form.

Dr Evil on June 26, 2010 at 9:31 AM

By that logic, it’s OK to shoot a quadriplegic. He won’t feel pain. The inference is that if the fetus doesn’t feel pain, there is no other consciousness. I don’t think that’s the case.

NoFanofLibs on June 26, 2010 at 8:59 AM

The question in Nebraska is whether fetal pain should become an earlier criteria, superseding viability established in the Casey decision. The quadriplegic would presumably be covered by viability.

The pain question seems more useful than viability because it gets at some definition of human being based on what is inherent rather than a capacity to survive that all infants (and some adults) lack.

dedalus on June 26, 2010 at 9:32 AM

With that way of thinking there just aren’t any more pregnant women who can terminate their pregnancies. Ever hear of horseback riding? A quick fall down the stairs? A friend with a hell of an uppercut? A “doctor” in a hotel room with a coat hanger?

adamsmith on June 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM

And what’s your problem with that, adam? Aren’t you “pro-choice”? Shouldn’t a pregnant woman have the CHOICE to do what she wants with her body? Horseback riding is legal, is it not? Isn’t it legal to fall down the stairs? So what’s wrong with that, in your opinion?

Grace_is_sufficient on June 26, 2010 at 9:35 AM

They can not talk either. They can not play football or eat solid food or, lucky them, be forced to listen to NPR in rush hour traffic with six other folks who are flaming Libtards while Limbaugh is just a few clicks of the dial away.Bubba Redneck on June 26, 2010 at 4:25 AM

Haha. You must be in my husband’s car pool.

If you take the word of SCIENCE (a religion of profound faith)……then these are just blobs of tissue floating around in the womb (pain?….pffft).BuckeyeSam on June 26, 2010 at 5:15 AM

Actually… these people are ignoring science, as well. Science, specificlly genetics, has shown us that the unborn are undeniably, unique, individual human beings from conception.

bitsy on June 26, 2010 at 9:37 AM

Convicted murderers who receive a lethal injection don’t feel pain.

artist on June 26, 2010 at 9:38 AM

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 9:22 AM

Is ugly the commenter who has disabilities? He didn’t say on this thread but it seems like it’s been mentioned before. I think he seriously misunderstood you.

Cindy Munford on June 26, 2010 at 10:13 AM

So does pain now gauge how human we are?

thevastlane on June 25, 2010 at 11:41 PM

Because knowing an unborn child feels pain forces a mother to realize there’s no “it” in baby.

When an abortion happens on the other side of a sheet and the road to an abortion is a sterile one also, its easier to discard a human life, but when the brutal, bloody reality is unavoidable as in making pain awareness part of the debate then conscience becomes a much larger part of pro-choice, for life.

The number of women and girls who know their baby inside them will hurt as a result of being killed who still go forward with an abortion must be very small and those who would certainly fall in the bad choice for a mom category.

We can tell people the truth, we can show them the reality, we can teach morality, we can implore they do the right thing but in the end we can’t control what people do at least until some line is crossed and even then how or what or why do we decide?

There has to be a point beyond which reproductive rights is barbaric murder, how do we decide where that line is and how do we debate an unborn child that will only know a silent dark un-realizing short life of only pain?

The further down the road we go before having the scientific and moral debate the more pain is suffered, the discussion may be difficult but we have to, have it.

Speakup on June 26, 2010 at 10:55 AM

Late to the party but it seems like a lot of the nastiness could have been stopped by just saying to Ugly that you oppose abortion, if indeed that is your position. But there seemed to be a lot of dancing around the issue by the parties involved and the gasoline throwers.

Now, to add my own 2 cents and p*ss irrational people off: A while back this subject came up and I made the entirely factual statement that surgeons did not use anesthesia when performing surgery and other invasive procedures on premature and some full term infants. The prevailing thought was that they did not feel pain and anesthesia was too risky. And while I said I was shocked to learn this and that it made me queasy, the usual suspects who demand 110% compliance with their anti-abortion message jumped all over me — Just like the time I was jumped all over for stating, that no one was going to be charged with a felony assault for knocking some anti-abortion pamphlets out of someone’s hand.

Blake on June 26, 2010 at 12:11 PM

It is dangerous to let humans decide the value of human life. Any decision, however couched in scientific/economic/sociological terms, is bound to be arbitrary and ultimately based on the whims of the decider.
Human life has value or it does not. It matters not what stage it is in. If you are going to remove some morality from the issue, you must remove all morality. You can no more be a little moral than you can be a little pregnant.

Extrafishy on June 26, 2010 at 12:48 PM

What amazes me is the depths, and lengths these pro abortionists will go to, to try not only to convince others this is a moral disgrace, and sin….but to convince themselves as well.

capejasmine on June 26, 2010 at 1:18 PM

So does pain now gauge how human we are?

thevastlane on June 25, 2010 at 11:41 PM

Because knowing an unborn child feels pain forces a mother to realize there’s no “it” in baby…

The further down the road we go before having the scientific and moral debate the more pain is suffered, the discussion may be difficult but we have to, have it.

Speakup on June 26, 2010 at 10:55 AM

.
Thank you for trying to work this through Speakup. I’m not going to try to pick apart your reasoning. I’ll just say I find your argument vulnerable to critique. The expectant mother’s I have know often first experience the life within them and then they begin to worry about their unborn baby’s wellbeing.
.
I expect you may discover upon further reflection that defining the value of human life by when pain is felt is diabolically treacherous. Perhaps without realizing when you cross terrible threshold you will inevitably default to determining the value of human life based upon power relationships and fall into grave evil. Consider pain vs pain whose pain do you chose? An unborn baby’s or its mother’s pain during delivery or the pain and discomfort of a biological father who doesn’t want to be held responsible for the girl he has impregnated or the child she carries. In substance, in the real world, in real life under Wade vs. Rowe the pain and discomfort of those who do not wish to be held responsible for the impregnated girl and her child carries enormous unspoken wait. Notice how many men who engage in extramarital sex get so unreasonably angry even furious with pro-lifers. It is because they’ve got a lot to lose if the life of the baby is protected
.
Entertain this thought experiment Speakup. Ask yourself: if the experience of pain and its avoidance are paramount to determining when human life has paramount value, on what basis would you argue that the Holocaust was wrong if the NAZI’s had taken the “humane” precaution of fully anesthetizing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other “undesirables” and “defectives” before executing them.

Mike OMalley on June 26, 2010 at 2:17 PM

So does pain now gauge how human we are?

thevastlane on June 25, 2010 at 11:41 PM

Because knowing an unborn child feels pain forces a mother to realize there’s no “it” in baby…

The further down the road we go before having the scientific and moral debate the more pain is suffered, the discussion may be difficult but we have to, have it.

Speakup on June 26, 2010 at 10:55 AM

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Thank you for trying to work this through Speakup. I’m not going to try to pick apart your reasoning. I’ll just say I find your argument vulnerable to critique. The expectant mother’s I have know often first experience the life within them and then they begin to worry about their unborn baby’s wellbeing.
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I expect you may discover upon further reflection that defining the value of human life by when pain is felt is diabolically treacherous. Perhaps without realizing when you cross terrible threshold you will inevitably default to determining the value of human life based upon power relationships and fall into grave evil. Consider pain vs pain whose pain do you chose? An unborn baby’s or its mother’s pain during delivery or the pain and discomfort of a biological father who doesn’t want to be held responsible for the girl he has impregnated or the child she carries. In substance, in the real world, in real life under Wade vs. Rowe the pain and discomfort of those who do not wish to be held responsible for the impregnated girl and her child carry enormous unspoken weight. Notice how many men who engage in extramarital sex get so unreasonably angry even furious with pro-lifers. It is because they’ve got a lot to lose if the life of the baby is protected
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Entertain this thought experiment Speakup. Ask yourself: if the experience of pain and its avoidance are paramount to determining when human life has unalienable value, on what basis would you argue that the Holocaust was wrong if the NAZI’s had taken the “humane” precaution of fully anesthetizing Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other “undesirables” and “defectives” before executing them.

Mike OMalley on June 26, 2010 at 2:24 PM

Actually… these people are ignoring science, as well. Science, specificlly genetics, has shown us that the unborn are undeniably, unique, individual human beings from conception.

bitsy on June 26, 2010 at 9:37 AM

AGREED!!!!!!!!

Bubba Redneck on June 26, 2010 at 3:41 PM

So…if I have a higher threshold to pain than you, my life must be worth more than yours?

GGMac on June 26, 2010 at 5:43 PM

Read somewhere today – sea turtles are getting caught in boom-nets used somehow in the burning-off of oil down there in the Gulf, and are being burned alive. Killing them is a crime, so it’s possible BP could have to pay a fine for each killed sea turtle. Protected species, and all that. IIRC the fine is $50,000 for each turtle death.

Human babies? If they’re inconvenient to your life, go right ahead and kill them. No fine – freebies. As often as you like, go ahead and kill them. There’s no limit, such as for buck deer – and you don’t even need a special license such as for killing doe. Human babies? Just have at it – and you’ll even be cheered on by appx half the population of the country.

Trusting you all know what’s sarc and what’s not.

GGMac on June 26, 2010 at 6:00 PM

Hey, so where was the World Cup (US v Ghana) thread?

Jimbo3 on June 26, 2010 at 6:01 PM

Is ugly the commenter who has disabilities? He didn’t say on this thread but it seems like it’s been mentioned before. I think he seriously misunderstood you.

Cindy Munford on June 26, 2010 at 10:13 AM

Yes. And maybe so.

Ugly on June 26, 2010 at 6:01 PM

Test

Dire Straits on June 26, 2010 at 6:45 PM

Ugly on June 26, 2010 at 6:01 PM

Is the misunderstanding resolved?

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 8:27 PM

Is the misunderstanding resolved?

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 8:27 PM

Good question.

Anxiety Disorder & PTSD are just two of my disabilities. Resolution isn’t on the list.

Hey but Good Luck.

Ugly on June 26, 2010 at 8:49 PM

Babies Feel Pain During Abortions
“According to Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist at the University of Toronto, unborn babies between 20 and 30 weeks development may actually feel pain more intensely than adults. He says this is a “uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established; yet the higher-level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop.”

http://www.blogicus.com/archives/babies_feel_pain_during_abortions.php

Irenaeus on June 26, 2010 at 8:55 PM

Sounds like I missed the insomniac cafe last night…

But to the point, who here CARES IF A FETUS CAN FEEL PAIN???

REALLY????

Pardon me, but I think the VERY PREMISE THAT ITS OK TO EXTERMINATE WHOLE GENERATIONS OF YOUR OWN KIND IS BARBARIC AND NOT WHAT “CIVILIZED” SOCIETIES DO.
Mention that “civilized” argument to a Liberal.

They f*cking HAAAAAAAAAATE you for it.

seejanemom on June 26, 2010 at 9:16 PM

adamsmith on June 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM

Your terminology argument is ridiculous.By your definition, if I’m pro school choice but against abortion I’m anti-choice but a person that’s against school choice but for legalized abortion is pro choice.

Unless the only choice that counts as a choice is abortion, this isn’t logically sound.

In most abortion arguments the discussion seems to be between people that are in favor of legalized abortion and people that are opposed to it. If a simplistic label must be applied, it seems more sensible to have pro-legalized abortion and anti-legalized abortion. Of course, in general, the people that are against legalized abortion probably aren’t for illegal abortion either, so, they could simply be anti-abortion.

JadeNYU on June 26, 2010 at 9:21 PM

Ugly on June 26, 2010 at 6:01 PM

I like what you write.

Cindy Munford on June 26, 2010 at 9:25 PM

Ugly

you may have those issues but they don’t excuse last night.

No excuse

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 9:43 PM

No excuse

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 9:43 PM

Not looking for an excuse.

Ugly on June 26, 2010 at 9:55 PM

Not looking for an excuse.

Ugly on June 26, 2010 at 9:55 PM

Then admit your mistake.

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 11:37 PM

By the way

anxiety isn’t a disability.

blatantblue on June 26, 2010 at 11:44 PM

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