Mitch Daniels: We need a “truce” on social issues to concentrate on our fiscal crisis

posted at 6:20 pm on June 10, 2010 by Allahpundit

Alternate headline: “Mitch Daniels’s dark-horse presidential bid dead on arrival.” Here’s what he told the Weekly Standard per the profile Ed flagged yesterday:

Beyond the debt and the deficit, in Daniels’s telling, all other issues fade to comparative insignificance. He’s an agnostic on the science of global warming but says his views don’t matter. “I don’t know if the CO2 zealots are right,” he said. “But I don’t care, because we can’t afford to do what they want to do. Unless you want to go broke, in which case the world isn’t going to be any greener. Poor nations are never green.”

And then, he says, the next president, whoever he is, “would have to call a truce on the so-called social issues. We’re going to just have to agree to get along for a little while,” until the economic issues are resolved. Daniels is pro-life himself, and he gets high marks from conservative religious groups in his state. He serves as an elder at the Tabernacle Presbyterian Church, in inner-city Indianapolis, which he’s attended for 50 years.

John McCormack pressed him to elaborate on what he meant by a “truce” and Daniels couldn’t offer any specifics. (“Everybody just stands down for a little while, while we try to save the republic.”) Enter evangelical leader Tony Perkins to lower the boom:

“Not only is he noncommittal about his role as a pro-life leader, but the governor wouldn’t even agree to a modest step like banning taxpayer-funded promotion of abortion overseas — which [former] President Bush did on his first day in office with 65% of the country’s support. Let’s face it. These aren’t fringe issues that stretch moderate America. They’re mainstream ideals that an overwhelming majority of the nation espouses. I support the governor 100% on the call for fiscal responsibility, but nothing is more fiscally responsible than ending the taxpayer funding of abortion and abortion promotion. More than 70% of our nation agrees that killing innocent unborn children with federal dollars is wrong. Yet stopping government-funded murder isn’t a “genuine national emergency?” We cannot “save the republic,” in Gov. Daniels’ words, by killing the next generation. Regardless of what the establishment believes, fiscal and social conservatism have never been mutually exclusive. Without life, there is no pursuit of happiness. Thank goodness the Founding Fathers were not timid in their leadership; they understood that “truce” was nothing more than surrender.”

Other religious conservatives are piling on too: “Something like this will cost him any consideration from one of the key constituencies of the Republican Party,” says the president of the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute. Ramesh Ponnuru is right that Daniels is kidding himself if he thinks he can avoid these landmines as president — the first Supreme Court vacancy will thrust him right into the middle of it — and it’s amazingly tone-deaf for an aspiring nominee to propose a “truce” on abortion given how many pro-lifers equate it with murder. But even so, I’m sympathetic to his willingness to prioritize America’s entitlements crisis over everything else, even at the expense of alienating a core wing of the GOP. The hard lesson that Republicans seem to have to learn and re-learn is that, thanks to Roe, there’s not much a GOP president and Congress can do legislatively about abortion, in which case why not temporarily de-emphasize it as a political issue if it’ll buy crucial centrist votes needed to redress a fiscal emergency? (In fact, isn’t that an unstated assumption of the tea-party movement? “Yes, foreign policy and social issues are important, but economic stability is now Job One.”) Unless Daniels means that he’s willing to compromise on a pro-choice Supreme Court nominee, which would be pure political suicide, I’m not sure which social issue he’s supposed to be willing to go to the wall for even if it means detonating a potential political compromise with Democrats to reform social security and Medicare. If McConnell and Boehner come to President Daniels and say they’ve got the votes for a balanced-budget amendment but in return the Dems want the Defense of Marriage Amendment repealed, Daniels is supposed to tell them to hit the bricks?

Sounds to me like what he’s really saying is that we should accept the status quo, whatever it may be, on social issues until entitlements are back on the path to solvency. As for abortion, I suspect his way of squaring the circle will be to argue that, in fact, because fiscal solvency is priority one and because we need lots of young workers to support our federal Ponzi schemes, the moral argument for opposing abortion is actually a very sensible economic argument too. Exit question one: Is this guy done for, assuming he ever had a chance to begin with? Exit question two: He’s pretty much a textbook example of the sort of candidate who’d benefit from a California-style free-for-all primary, isn’t he?

Blowback

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How about politicians learn to be more persuasive on this and other issues rather than just bumper sticker their position? Being able to respond to unstated assumptions that being pro-life means we all want to toss women in jail would be a starter. Or pointing out that judges that would tend to overturn Roe v Wade would also vote against Kelo and Roe v Wade going down only puts it back into states hands with some liberalizing even more.

aikidoka on June 10, 2010 at 8:35 PM

It’s nearly always an injustice to the baby. You can make a moral case for aborting a horribly deformed baby who would only live a few painful hours after birth, but most abortions are not for that reason.
Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:26 PM

If the mother’s life is in danger, it’s self defense.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:36 PM

Yes, you are right. And that is why we must do whatever we can to change people’s minds (pace AnninCA, who famously said no mind could ever be changed, a few threads back!) I see the electorate becoming (a) more pro-life and (b) more disgusted with politicians who sway with the wind. Moreover, more and more women who have had abortions and bitterly regretted it are coming forward with their stories. I don’t see the abortion issue as nearly the third rail for a politician that it might have been twenty or even ten years ago.

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:33 PM

We’ve made improvements in the public view of abortion. I agree. And we should individually continue to fight for the rights of unborn children. But Public view of it is STILL third rail. But even that is not the point, here. As I’ve said…we keep putting this issue before National Economics, and we will lose power in both sectors.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:36 PM

On the other hand the Palin deniers (and that’s what they are) try to act like she’s only about social conservatism, and wants to set up a theocracy or some such nonsense.

Oh, you mean that nonsense about praying to get rid of the witches jinx.

The fact is, her record as a REAL fiscal conservative is better, and stronger than anyone in the country.

gary4205 on June 10, 2010 at 8:11 PM

Of course, you mean that real fiscally conservative $3500 Permanent Fund Dividend check financed by the %400 tax increase on the oil industry.

AshleyTKing on June 10, 2010 at 8:38 PM

If the mother’s life is in danger, it’s self defense.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:36 PM

A slightly weaker argument, but a fair one. However, as with the deformed baby scenario, those are only a tiny fraction of all abortions performed.

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:38 PM

For those that are arguing so hard for Pro-Life. Kudos. Your passion is appreciated, truly. We will need you all to continue your fight, along with us, when our country and our Constitution in safe.

Cos right now, I’m fighting for The Constitution, and that will benefit every single citizen, including the unborn.

How’s that for drama? :) (the good kind I hope)

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:41 PM

When exactly did this thread turn into a debate about Sarah Palin??

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:42 PM

“zomg money vs morals”, an argument based on a false dichotomy

I am not choosing ‘money’ over ‘morals’ by supporting a “fix the bank first” position, and neither is Mitch Daniels.

Look, if you’re serious about overturning Roe vs Wade, you need a pro-life conservative in the white house to nominate an originalist justice. Daniels has already stated he is pro life, so what’s it to you if he runs on a “fiscal sanity” platform?? Isn’t that the most effective campaign focus in our political climate?

If he would have the opportunity to nominate a justice, provided we are yet fiscally solvent, isn’t he going to nominate someone who supports your position? Of course he would. If Daniels is in the white house and if a bill comes to his desk about [social issue], won’t he sign it? Of course he would, because he’s already a social conservative.

knob on June 10, 2010 at 8:45 PM

But you describe a world that doesn’t exist. We don’t have to choose between a job and an abortion stance (provided, I assume, we aren’t interviewing at the DNC). I’m prefectly capable of dual priorities, my families welfare, and my disgust at abortion. I just don’t see the analogy between this and with whom I might vote for. I’m not even speaking in the context of Daniels. I’m speaking in the context of the vitriol here aimed at those who feel a moral obligation to oppose abortion. Why is that so hard to understand? Like I said up yonder, I voted for Arnold. I regret that vote. He’s a panderer. He is Governor Shriver.
nico on June 10, 2010 at 8:11 PM

You’re missing the analogy. We may very well have to choose between jobs and abortion. If we nominate Mike Huckabee, for instance, he is perfect on abortion, but he’s terrible on the economy. We would have no new jobs being created. Just like now. He might not even be able to defeat Obama. Someone like Mitch, Palin, Pawlenty or Christie might be able to spur creation of jobs. But if they don’t have the right opinion on social issues then they will get vetoed by the social cons in favor of an idiot like Huckabee.

Therein is the choice.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:45 PM

we keep putting this issue before National Economics, and we will lose power in both sectors.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:36 PM

And if we don’t at least put it on a par with national economics, we will lose everyone who is opposed to abortion on principle.

If a person believes completely and sincerely that abortion is an evil act, that person will never compromise with evil. So if we want or need that person’s support, we either have to find evidence to change that person’s mind, or support his cause in return.

Give me a fiscal conservative who supports returning the issue to the states, and I’ll gladly support that candidate with my money, time, and vote. I’m not a huge fan of Martin Luther for a number of reasons, but as he said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:46 PM

They demand blind perfect obedience.
Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:26 PM
Actually, it’s called sticking to a principle.
Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:27 PM

The Taliban sticks to their principles. I guess they must be OK.

And am I the only one here who actually loves Southern California and actually wants to move TO there?

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:50 PM

Give me a fiscal conservative who supports returning the issue to the states, and I’ll gladly support that candidate with my money, time, and vote. I’m not a huge fan of Martin Luther for a number of reasons, but as he said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:46 PM

On this, Mary, we agree.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:50 PM

If the mother’s life is in danger, it’s self defense.
Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:36 PM
A slightly weaker argument, but a fair one. However, as with the deformed baby scenario, those are only a tiny fraction of all abortions performed.
Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:38 PM

On that, at least, we can agree.

GO LAKERS!!!

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:52 PM

The Taliban sticks to their principles. I guess they must be OK.

Um, no. Not really. And you know it.

And am I the only one here who actually loves Southern California and actually wants to move TO there?

I love CA so much I refuse to leave it, in spite of the fact that it’s becoming a socialist hellhole. C’mon out here — just don’t expect to buy a house! :-)

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:52 PM

And am I the only one here who actually loves Southern California and actually wants to move TO there?

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 8:50 PM

Nice place to visit on vacation. :) God bless ya if you want to live there. And God bless ya even more if you can bring about good change there. :)

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:53 PM

The Taliban sticks to their principles. I guess they must be OK.

Um, no. Not really. And you know it.

Let me add that it does make them harder to fight. They can’t effectively be bribed, for example.

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM

Hey Pro Cynic…

Does your moniker mean you’re a professional Cynic OR do you just really support cynics? :)

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM

Give me a fiscal conservative who supports returning the issue to the states, and I’ll gladly support that candidate with my money, time, and vote. I’m not a huge fan of Martin Luther for a number of reasons, but as he said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”

agreed, but I like Martin Luther :P

knob on June 10, 2010 at 8:56 PM

Hehe…let’s be clear that was Martin Luther and not Martin Luther King. But I bet he’d agree too. :)

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:58 PM

“Mitch Daniels’s dark-horse presidential bid dead on arrival.”

Horsesqueeze.

And not only that, you’d have to be an idiot to get completely cornered on “social issues” at this stage, unless of course you’re as big a liar as any of the last group Democratic presidential candidates. And his position is already clear at any rate.

And I don’t want a Tony Perkins-picked candidate any more than I wanted the media-chosen McLame.

Doorgunner on June 10, 2010 at 8:58 PM

agreed, but I like Martin Luther :P

knob on June 10, 2010 at 8:56 PM

There was a lot to like about the guy, until he became a big anti-Semite in his later years.

He did write some wonderful hymns, though.

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:58 PM

Hehe…let’s be clear that was Martin Luther and not Martin Luther King. But I bet he’d agree too. :)

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:58 PM

Yes, you’re right. To avoid any ambiguity, I meant this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:59 PM

Yes, you’re right. To avoid any ambiguity, I meant this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:59 PM

I was mostly being silly. But if I were honest, I’d admit I had to read your post twice before I realized that there was no KING there.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 9:04 PM

I was mostly being silly. But if I were honest, I’d admit I had to read your post twice before I realized that there was no KING there.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 9:04 PM

Not to worry! :-) Dr. King is definitely the more famous of the two Martin Luthers at this point. When a stretch of (I think it was) Fairfax Ave. in downtown LA was renamed “Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd.”, they could hardly fit it on the street signs. :-)

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM

Mitch Daniels = BUSH RINO

It’s just that simple.

PappyD61 on June 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM

Time for me to sign off and go do meatspace things. ‘Night, all! :-)

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 9:10 PM

Not to worry! :-) Dr. King is definitely the more famous of the two Martin Luthers at this point. When a stretch of (I think it was) Fairfax Ave. in downtown LA was renamed “Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd.”, they could hardly fit it on the street signs. :-)

Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM

I’m pretty sure that there is one of those in EVERY city in the country. What took you all so long. :)

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 9:10 PM

Oh, yeah. “I’m pro-life” is stridency.

ddrintn on June 10, 2010 at 6:48 PM

No, I think things like the Terri Schiavo debacle might be considered “stridency” though.

Firefly_76 on June 10, 2010 at 7:07 PM

Which isn’t an ongoing issue; and Bush was “hated” quite a bit before that.

ddrintn on June 10, 2010 at 9:11 PM

Sorry, but the Conservatives need to choose, winning elections or pandering to fundamentalist Christians.

MJBrutus on June 10, 2010 at 7:53 PM

I assume you also include evangelicals in there. Well, you could try to learn to win without either group…which should be entertaining. In fact, a lot of evangelicals at least crossed over to the Dems in 2008.

ddrintn on June 10, 2010 at 9:16 PM

On the other hand the Palin deniers (and that’s what they are) try to act like she’s only about social conservatism, and wants to set up a theocracy or some such nonsense.

Oh, you mean that nonsense about praying to get rid of the witches jinx.

The fact is, her record as a REAL fiscal conservative is better, and stronger than anyone in the country.

gary4205 on June 10, 2010 at 8:11 PM

Of course, you mean that real fiscally conservative $3500 Permanent Fund Dividend check financed by the %400 tax increase on the oil industry.

AshleyTKing on June 10, 2010 at 8:38 PM

You are so full of crap.

And that wasn’t a “tax increase” on the oil industry you idiot, and you know it.

Thanks to Papa Frank’s “Corrupt Bastard’s Club” and their cozy back room deals with Big Oil, they were all but stealing the crude, from the Alaskan people. Sarah simply re-negotiated the price the state of Alaska would sell their oil to the oil companies, and she did it by FORCE. Good for her.

She’s a leader.

BTW, she told the idiots at the oil companies they’d end up making more profit under her plan, even though Alaska would make more money.

Of course, she was right. And the oil companies had to say so.

Now, go back to you handler and tell them to give you some more talking points.

You get them from Pete Rouse, or directly from Axelrod?

gary4205 on June 10, 2010 at 9:19 PM

Ah, yes, another brilliant individual for whom adjusting a clock is just a little too complicated. The only thing worse than sensible legislation being held up for abortion or gay marriage is sensible legislation held up because Indiana thinks it should have its own time zone.
And you might want to check with Honda and Rolls-Royce about daylight time. They made it clear that if there was no daylight time they would not locate in Indiana.
Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 7:39 PM

Ah, yes another whack job who thinks were all high technology with China because we change clocks when China and Japan DON’T. Of course you’ve forgotten that Honda and Rolls-Royce were already here and already committed to expansions of their facilities.

Skywise on June 10, 2010 at 9:19 PM

One question: when in the course of human events have Leftists ever agreed to or (in case you identify such a phenomenal moment in time) honored a “truce.”

That this guy would say anything so clueless utterly and immediately vaporized him off my political radar.

rrpjr on June 10, 2010 at 9:43 PM

Ah, yes another whack job who thinks were all high technology with China because we change clocks when China and Japan DON’T. Of course you’ve forgotten that Honda and Rolls-Royce were already here and already committed to expansions of their facilities.
Skywise on June 10, 2010 at 9:19 PM

Rolls-Royce was going to leave Indianapolis. They stayed and even added jobs – because of daylight time. Go on. Ask them. They were up front about it.

Actually, Honda did not commit to Greensburg until Daylight Time passed. Read up on it. Without daylight time Honda would likely have gone to Ohio. They have been open about it, too. I suppose Greensburg didn’t really need those jobs, though.

Yes, the lack of daylight time was a major headache for businesses and
contributed in no small part to Indiana’s brain drain and the national perception of the state as being full of idiots. Bringing Eastern Daylight Time to Indiana removed a big cause of that perception and brought us in line with the test of the US.

But you apparently feel it’s more important to be in line with China than the rest of the US. Do you by chance work for the State Department?

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:47 PM

Hey Pro Cynic…
Does your moniker mean you’re a professional Cynic OR do you just really support cynics? :)
tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM

Yes.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:49 PM

I love CA so much I refuse to leave it, in spite of the fact that it’s becoming a socialist hellhole. C’mon out here — just don’t expect to buy a house! :-)
Mary in LA on June 10, 2010 at 8:52 PM

Far bigger problem is finding anybody hiring lawyers.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:52 PM

Yes.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:49 PM

Works for me. Thanks.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 10:13 PM

Someone please show me a major Democratic leader willing to call a truce on social issues and maybe we can talk. People calling for the social conservatives to shut up are playing nicely into the hands of the dems.

neuquenguy on June 10, 2010 at 10:43 PM

It’s the economy, stupid! Mitch Daniels is right. He is NOT saying he’s pro-choice, but if anyone thinks that a GOP candidate is going to become POTUS by talking about anything other than the economy first and foremost, they’re delusional.

Mitch Daniels is pro-life. He said it and I doubt he would change his mind. Seems obvious to me that we have to get the country on solid footing and most importantly, a GOP candidate must get into the WH.

Good grief!!!!!!!!!

Oink on June 10, 2010 at 10:51 PM

Ah, yes another whack job who thinks were all high technology with China because we change clocks when China and Japan DON’T. Of course you’ve forgotten that Honda and Rolls-Royce were already here and already committed to expansions of their facilities.
Skywise on June 10, 2010 at 9:19 PM
Rolls-Royce was going to leave Indianapolis. They stayed and even added jobs – because of daylight time. Go on. Ask them. They were up front about it.

Actually, Honda did not commit to Greensburg until Daylight Time passed. Read up on it. Without daylight time Honda would likely have gone to Ohio. They have been open about it, too. I suppose Greensburg didn’t really need those jobs, though.

Yes, the lack of daylight time was a major headache for businesses and
contributed in no small part to Indiana’s brain drain and the national perception of the state as being full of idiots. Bringing Eastern Daylight Time to Indiana removed a big cause of that perception and brought us in line with the test of the US.

But you apparently feel it’s more important to be in line with China than the rest of the US. Do you by chance work for the State Department?

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:47 PM

Obviously, Pro Cynic, you’re from Indiana too because you seem very knowlegable about Indiana.

Please cite something that definitive that says the the lack of DST was the cause of brain drain in Indiana or that it was even a problem for business owners. And if it was a problem, what WAS the problem?

Really, it wasn’t that difficult. Our clocks didn’t move and we were either on Eastern time or Central time depending on the time of year. It’s not like we were 30 minutes off from the rest of the country!

We live in a global society and I hardly believe that because Indiana was one of the last hold-outs for DST that the world passed us by. I’ve never bought that and I’m not buying it now.

Furthermore, what IS the modern-day reason for DST?

Oink on June 10, 2010 at 10:59 PM

It’s the economy, stupid! Mitch Daniels is right. He is NOT saying he’s pro-choice, but if anyone thinks that a GOP candidate is going to become POTUS by talking about anything other than the economy first and foremost, they’re delusional.

Oink on June 10, 2010 at 10:51 PM

Of course. But any GOP candidate is going to be asked for his/her view on abortion in an interview or debate. The moment they say “I’m pro-life”, then they’re immediately in that “flamingly strident and divisive wingnut socon” category. Of course, they can always answer, “I’m sorry, but we’re in a truce right now on those issues.” Good luck with that.

ddrintn on June 10, 2010 at 11:10 PM

wasn’t he working for Jorge BOOOOSH??? the biggest spender ever until b. Hussein came along??? right….

right4life on June 10, 2010 at 11:28 PM

Rolls-Royce was going to leave Indianapolis. They stayed and even added jobs – because of daylight time. Go on. Ask them. They were up front about it.

Actually, Honda did not commit to Greensburg until Daylight Time passed. Read up on it. Without daylight time Honda would likely have gone to Ohio. They have been open about it, too. I suppose Greensburg didn’t really need those jobs, though.

Yes, the lack of daylight time was a major headache for businesses and
contributed in no small part to Indiana’s brain drain and the national perception of the state as being full of idiots. Bringing Eastern Daylight Time to Indiana removed a big cause of that perception and brought us in line with the test of the US.

But you apparently feel it’s more important to be in line with China than the rest of the US. Do you by chance work for the State Department?

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:47 PM

No Rolls-Royce wasn’t. It had alot more to do with the tax credits they got than anything about Daylight Savings. Go on, ask them.

Honda was already here and also committed because of generous tax credits… no daylight savings. Go one, ask them.

The brain drain had nothing to do with DST and everything to do with the loss of Ma Bell, RCA, Western Electric and many of the specialty auto technology centers (Delco Remy) that went elsewhere and replaced with menial factory jobs (like Rolls-Royce and Honda) No development like that has returned. Now, Mitch Daniels has tried to spur on development with other industrial centers… like… CHINA and JAPAN Who aren’t on DST but somehow the fact that we now change times and they don’t will help make us more technologically advanced?

The only company that was holding off coming here was FedEx who were supposed to relocate their HQ here from Tennessee but didn’t because a> our airport was too tiny and b> DST made everything too confusing. So a buncha investors got together and put up some seed capital while the tax payers footed the rest of the bill to build a new airport and then bankrolled the campaigns of both Democrats and Republicans to push DST through so th investors could reap some serious rewards. And FedEx BALKED.

I was in the meetings.

So what did fiscally conservative Mitch Daniels do to pay off the airport? He raised our taxes.

Skywise on June 10, 2010 at 11:59 PM

How about politicians learn to be more persuasive on this and other issues rather than just bumper sticker their position? Being able to respond to unstated assumptions that being pro-life means we all want to toss women in jail would be a starter. Or pointing out that judges that would tend to overturn Roe v Wade would also vote against Kelo and Roe v Wade going down only puts it back into states hands with some liberalizing even more.

aikidoka on June 10, 2010 at 8:35 PM

Amen to that…we are in dire, desperate need of persuasion and not pandering.

To say nothing of pre-emptive, unilateral disarmament.

Cylor on June 11, 2010 at 12:08 AM

The Republican Party has no claim or ownership over Conservatives or the Conservative Movement. If some people want to run for office without all the Social Conservatives or the Social Issues they can do it without our money, our volunteers, or our votes.

For may of us there is no separating social conservatism and fiscal conservatism. Try to declare a truce is nothing less than surrender.

thmsmgnm on June 11, 2010 at 12:32 AM

That’s a good reason why we need a Huckabee/Daniels ticket.

VFT on June 10, 2010 at 7:55 PM

Not surprised to see Huckster supporters liking Daniels. Neither man should be allowed within a million miles of the GOP nomination.

Mitch Daniels = BUSH RINO

It’s just that simple.

PappyD61 on June 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM

Yep. Didn’t Bush use to call him my “My man Mitch”? Why the hell would we want a Bush clone? Enough already with these Ivy League RINOs.

Norwegian on June 11, 2010 at 12:34 AM

It is even more damaging than that. An awful lot of voters will not vote for a Conservative candidate who puts social issues on the table. We need their votes and there are a lot more of them than those who demand the religiously-correct position.

MJBrutus on June 10, 2010 at 8:08 PM

Then just go ahead and be out with the progress pro-choice policies and don’t couch it behind a “Truce”. I’m sure the voters will flock to that banner and I sure the Republican Party will triumph on that platform.

Show us damn Social Conservatives how little you need us, because more people will support the Party if there is no pesky social issues getting in the way.

DO IT.

thmsmgnm on June 11, 2010 at 12:44 AM

Oooops! Thar he blows!

SilentWatcher on June 11, 2010 at 5:30 AM

I can’t remember the last Republican president who exactly went to war on social issues.

ddrintn on June 10, 2010 at 6:24 PM

Plenty of them used social issues as a “hey! look! over there! homos | pro-aborts (sic) | secular humanists!” while voting to bankrupt the country or throw more regulations into our everyday lives.

friendlygrizzly on June 11, 2010 at 6:51 AM

If it weren’t for social conservatives, Bush wouldn’t have won twice.

McCain would have beaten him in the first primary, and stomped Gore in the General Election. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would have gotten better, with a President who had foreign policy credentials.

He would have left with significant approval ratings. And a Republican would be in the White House right now.

Mister Mets on June 11, 2010 at 7:13 AM

We’re going to just have to agree to get along for a little while,” until the economic issues are resolved.

No quarter… None asked, none given…

Keep standing in the middle of the road, Mitch…

Khun Joe on June 11, 2010 at 8:09 AM

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:17 PM

Here’s what Reagan had to say.

The 10th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade is a good time for us to pause and reflect. Our nationwide policy of abortion-on-demand through all nine months of pregnancy was neither voted for by our people nor enacted by our legislators — not a single state had such unrestricted abortion before the Supreme Court decreed it to be national policy in 1973. But the consequences of this judicial decision are now obvious: since 1973, more than 15 million unborn children have had their lives snuffed out by legalized abortions. That is over ten times the number of Americans lost in all our nation’s wars.

Make no mistake, abortion-on-demand is not a right granted by the Constitution. No serious scholar, including one disposed to agree with the Court’s result, has argued that the framers of the Constitution intended to create such a right. Shortly after the Roe v. Wade decision, Professor John Hart Ely, now Dean of Stanford Law School, wrote that the opinion “is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be.” Nowhere do the plain words of the Constitution even hint at a “right” so sweeping as to permit abortion up to the time the child is ready to be born. Yet that is what the Court ruled.

As an act of “raw judicial power” (to use Justice White’s biting phrase), the decision by the seven-man majority in Roe v. Wade has so far been made to stick. But the Court’s decision has by no means settled the debate. Instead, Roe v. Wade has become a continuing prod to the conscience of the nation.

Abortion concerns not just the unborn child, it concerns every one of us. The English poet, John Donne, wrote: “. . . any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

We cannot diminish the value of one category of human life — the unborn — without diminishing the value of all human life. We saw tragic proof of this truism last year when the Indiana courts allowed the starvation death of “Baby Doe” in Bloomington because the child had Down’s Syndrome.

Many of our fellow citizens grieve over the loss of life that has followed Roe v. Wade. Margaret Heckler, soon after being nominated to head the largest department of our government, Health and Human Services, told an audience that she believed abortion to be the greatest moral crisis facing our country today. And the revered Mother Teresa, who works in the streets of Calcutta ministering to dying people in her world-famous mission of mercy, has said that “the greatest misery of our time is the generalized abortion of children.”

Over the first two years of my Administration I have closely followed and assisted efforts in Congress to reverse the tide of abortion — efforts of Congressmen, Senators and citizens responding to an urgent moral crisis. Regrettably, I have also seen the massive efforts of those who, under the banner of “freedom of choice,” have so far blocked every effort to reverse nationwide abortion-on-demand.

Despite the formidable obstacles before us, we must not lose heart. This is not the first time our country has been divided by a Supreme Court decision that denied the value of certain human lives. The Dred Scott decision of 1857 was not overturned in a day, or a year, or even a decade. At first, only a minority of Americans recognized and deplored the moral crisis brought about by denying the full humanity of our black brothers and sisters; but that minority persisted in their vision and finally prevailed. They did it by appealing to the hearts and minds of their countrymen, to the truth of human dignity under God. From their example, we know that respect for the sacred value of human life is too deeply engrained in the hearts of our people to remain forever suppressed. But the great majority of the American people have not yet made their voices heard, and we cannot expect them to — any more than the public voice arose against slavery — until the issue is clearly framed and presented.

What, then, is the real issue? I have often said that when we talk about abortion, we are talking about two lives — the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child. Why else do we call a pregnant woman a mother? I have also said that anyone who doesn’t feel sure whether we are talking about a second human life should clearly give life the benefit of the doubt. If you don’t know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it. I think this consideration itself should be enough for all of us to insist on protecting the unborn.

The case against abortion does not rest here, however, for medical practice confirms at every step the correctness of these moral sensibilities. Modern medicine treats the unborn child as a patient. Medical pioneers have made great breakthroughs in treating the unborn — for genetic problems, vitamin deficiencies, irregular heart rhythms, and other medical conditions. Who can forget George Will’s moving account of the little boy who underwent brain surgery six times during the nine weeks before he was born? Who is the patient if not that tiny unborn human being who can feel pain when he or she is approached by doctors who come to kill rather than to cure?

The real question today is not when human life begins, but, What is the value of human life? The abortionist who reassembles the arms and legs of a tiny baby to make sure all its parts have been torn from its mother’s body can hardly doubt whether it is a human being. The real question for him and for all of us is whether that tiny human life has a God-given right to be protected by the law — the same right we have.

What more dramatic confirmation could we have of the real issue than the Baby Doe case in Bloomington, Indiana? The death of that tiny infant tore at the hearts of all Americans because the child was undeniably a live human being — one lying helpless before the eyes of the doctors and the eyes of the nation. The real issue for the courts was not whether Baby Doe was a human being. The real issue was whether to protect the life of a human being who had Down’s Syndrome, who would probably be mentally handicapped, but who needed a routine surgical procedure to unblock his esophagus and allow him to eat. A doctor testified to the presiding judge that, even with his physical problem corrected, Baby Doe would have a “non-existent” possibility for “a minimally adequate quality of life” — in other words, that retardation was the equivalent of a crime deserving the death penalty. The judge let Baby Doe starve and die, and the Indiana Supreme Court sanctioned his decision.

Federal law does not allow federally-assisted hospitals to decide that Down’s Syndrome infants are not worth treating, much less to decide to starve them to death. Accordingly, I have directed the Departments of Justice and HHS to apply civil rights regulations to protect handicapped newborns. All hospitals receiving federal funds must post notices which will clearly state that failure to feed handicapped babies is prohibited by federal law. The basic issue is whether to value and protect the lives of the handicapped, whether to recognize the sanctity of human life. This is the same basic issue that underlies the question of abortion.

The 1981 Senate hearings on the beginning of human life brought out the basic issue more clearly than ever before. The many medical and scientific witnesses who testified disagreed on many things, but not on the scientific evidence that the unborn child is alive, is a distinct individual, or is a member of the human species. They did disagree over the value question, whether to give value to a human life at its early and most vulnerable stages of existence.

Regrettably, we live at a time when some persons do not value all human life. They want to pick and choose which individuals have value. Some have said that only those individuals with “consciousness of self” are human beings. One such writer has followed this deadly logic and concluded that “shocking as it may seem, a newly born infant is not a human being.”

A Nobel Prize winning scientist has suggested that if a handicapped child “were not declared fully human until three days after birth, then all parents could be allowed the choice.” In other words, “quality control” to see if newly born human beings are up to snuff.

Obviously, some influential people want to deny that every human life has intrinsic, sacred worth. They insist that a member of the human race must have certain qualities before they accord him or her status as a “human being.”

Events have borne out the editorial in a California medical journal which explained three years before Roe v. Wade that the social acceptance of abortion is a “defiance of the long-held Western ethic of intrinsic and equal value for every human life regardless of its stage, condition, or status.”

Every legislator, every doctor, and every citizen needs to recognize that the real issue is whether to affirm and protect the sanctity of all human life, or to embrace a social ethic where some human lives are valued and others are not. As a nation, we must choose between the sanctity of life ethic and the “quality of life” ethic.

I have no trouble identifying the answer our nation has always given to this basic question, and the answer that I hope and pray it will give in the future. American was founded by men and women who shared a vision of the value of each and every individual. They stated this vision clearly from the very start in the Declaration of Independence, using words that every schoolboy and schoolgirl can recite:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

We fought a terrible war to guarantee that one category of mankind — black people in America — could not be denied the inalienable rights with which their Creator endowed them. The great champion of the sanctity of all human life in that day, Abraham Lincoln, gave us his assessment of the Declaration’s purpose. Speaking of the framers of that noble document, he said
:

This was their majestic interpretation of the economy of the Universe. This was their lofty, and wise, and noble understanding of the justice of the Creator to His creatures. Yes, gentlemen, to all his creatures, to the whole great family of man. In their enlightened belief, nothing stamped with the divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on. . . They grasped not only the whole race of man then living, but they reached forward and seized upon the farthest posterity. They erected a beacon to guide their children and their children’s children, and the countless myriads who should inhabit the earth in other ages.

He warned also of the danger we would face if we closed our eyes to the value of life in any category of human beings:

I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it where will it stop. If one man says it does not mean a Negro, why not another say it does not mean some other man?

When Congressman John A. Bingham of Ohio drafted the Fourteenth Amendment to guarantee the rights of life, liberty, and property to all human beings, he explained that all are “entitled to the protection of American law, because its divine spirit of equality declares that all men are created equal.” He said the right guaranteed by the amendment would therefore apply to “any human being.” Justice William Brennan, writing in another case decided only the year before Roe v. Wade, referred to our society as one that “strongly affirms the sanctity of life.”

Another William Brennan — not the Justice — has reminded us of the terrible consequences that can follow when a nation rejects the sanctity of life ethic:

The cultural environment for a human holocaust is present whenever any society can be misled into defining individuals as less than human and therefore devoid of value and respect.

As a nation today, we have not rejected the sanctity of human life. The American people have not had an opportunity to express their view on the sanctity of human life in the unborn. I am convinced that Americans do not want to play God with the value of human life. It is not for us to decide who is worthy to live and who is not. Even the Supreme Court’s opinion in Roe v. Wade did not explicitly reject the traditional American idea of intrinsic worth and value in all human life; it simply dodged this issue.

The Congress has before it several measures that would enable our people to reaffirm the sanctity of human life, even the smallest and the youngest and the most defenseless. The Human Life Bill expressly recognizes the unborn as human beings and accordingly protects them as persons under our Constitution. This bill, first introduced by Senator Jesse Helms, provided the vehicle for the Senate hearings in 1981 which contributed so much to our understanding of the real issue of abortion.

The Respect Human Life Act, just introduced in the 98th Congress, states in its first section that the policy of the United States is “to protect innocent life, both before and after birth.” This bill, sponsored by Congressman Henry Hyde and Senator Roger Jepsen, prohibits the federal government from performing abortions or assisting those who do so, except to save the life of the mother. It also addresses the pressing issue of infanticide which, as we have seen, flows inevitably from permissive abortion as another step in the denial of the inviolability of innocent human life.

I have endorsed each of these measures, as well as the more difficult route of constitutional amendment, and I will give these initiatives my full support. Each of them, in different ways, attempts to reverse the tragic policy of abortion-on-demand imposed by the Supreme Court ten years ago. Each of them is a decisive way to affirm the sanctity of human life.

We must all educate ourselves to the reality of the horrors taking place. Doctors today know that unborn children can feel a touch within the womb and that they respond to pain. But how many Americans are aware that abortion techniques are allowed today, in all 50 states, that burn the skin of a baby with a salt solution, in an agonizing death that can last for hours?

Another example: two years ago, the Philadelphia Inquirer ran a Sunday special supplement on “The Dreaded Complication.” The “dreaded complication” referred to in the article — the complication feared by doctors who perform abortions — is the survival of the child despite all the painful attacks during the abortion procedure. Some unborn children do survive the late-term abortions the Supreme Court has made legal. Is there any question that these victims of abortion deserve our attention and protection? Is there any question that those who don’t survive were living human beings before they were killed?

Late-term abortions, especially when the baby survives, but is then killed by starvation, neglect, or suffocation, show once again the link between abortion and infanticide. The time to stop both is now. As my Administration acts to stop infanticide, we will be fully aware of the real issue that underlies the death of babies before and soon after birth.

Our society has, fortunately, become sensitive to the rights and special needs of the handicapped, but I am shocked that physical or mental handicaps of newborns are still used to justify their extinction. This Administration has a Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop, who has done perhaps more than any other American for handicapped children, by pioneering surgical techniques to help them, by speaking out on the value of their lives, and by working with them in the context of loving families. You will not find his former patients advocating the so-called “quality-of-life” ethic.

I know that when the true issue of infanticide is placed before the American people, with all the facts openly aired, we will have no trouble deciding that a mentally or physically handicapped baby has the same intrinsic worth and right to life as the rest of us. As the New Jersey Supreme Court said two decades ago, in a decision upholding the sanctity of human life, “a child need not be perfect to have a worthwhile life.”

Whether we are talking about pain suffered by unborn children, or about late-term abortions, or about infanticide, we inevitably focus on the humanity of the unborn child. Each of these issues is a potential rallying point for the sanctity of life ethic. Once we as a nation rally around any one of these issues to affirm the sanctity of life, we will see the importance of affirming this principle across the board.

Malcolm Muggeridge, the English writer, goes right to the heart of the matter: “Either life is always and in all circumstances sacred, or intrinsically of no account; it is inconceivable that it should be in some cases the one, and in some the other.” The sanctity of innocent human life is a principle that Congress should proclaim at every opportunity.

It is possible that the Supreme Court itself may overturn its abortion rulings. We need only recall that in Brown v. Board of Education the court reversed its own earlier “separate-but-equal” decision. I believe if the Supreme Court took another look at Roe v. Wade, and considered the real issue between the sanctity of life ethic and the quality of life ethic, it would change its mind once again.

As we continue to work to overturn Roe v. Wade, we must also continue to lay the groundwork for a society in which abortion is not the accepted answer to unwanted pregnancy. Pro-life people have already taken heroic steps, often at great personal sacrifice, to provide for unwed mothers. I recently spoke about a young pregnant woman named Victoria, who said, “In this society we save whales, we save timber wolves and bald eagles and Coke bottles. Yet, everyone wanted me to throw away my baby.” She has been helped by Save-a-Life, a group in Dallas, which provides a way for unwed mothers to preserve the human life within them when they might otherwise be tempted to resort to abortion. I think also of House of His Creation in Catesville, Pennsylvania, where a loving couple has taken in almost 200 young women in the past ten years. They have seen, as a fact of life, that the girls are not better off having abortions than saving their babies. I am also reminded of the remarkable Rossow family of Ellington, Connecticut, who have opened their hearts and their home to nine handicapped adopted and foster children.

The Adolescent Family Life Program, adopted by Congress at the request of Senator Jeremiah Denton, has opened new opportunities for unwed mothers to give their children life. We should not rest until our entire society echoes the tone of John Powell in the dedication of his book, Abortion: The Silent Holocaust, a dedication to every woman carrying an unwanted child: “Please believe that you are not alone. There are many of us that truly love you, who want to stand at your side, and help in any way we can.” And we can echo the always-practical woman of faith, Mother Teresa, when she says, “If you don’t want the little child, that unborn child, give him to me.” We have so many families in America seeking to adopt children that the slogan “every child a wanted child” is now the emptiest of all reasons to tolerate abortion.

I have often said we need to join in prayer to bring protection to the unborn. Prayer and action are needed to uphold the sanctity of human life. I believe it will not be possible to accomplish our work, the work of saving lives, “without being a soul of prayer.” The famous British Member of Parliament, William Wilberforce, prayed with his small group of influential friends, the “Clapham Sect,” for decades to see an end to slavery in the British empire. Wilberforce led that struggle in Parliament, unflaggingly, because he believed in the sanctity of human life. He saw the fulfillment of his impossible dream when Parliament outlawed slavery just before his death.

Let his faith and perseverance be our guide. We will never recognize the true value of our own lives until we affirm the value in the life of others, a value of which Malcolm Muggeridge says:. . . however low it flickers or fiercely burns, it is still a Divine flame which no man dare presume to put out, be his motives ever so humane and enlightened.”

Abraham Lincoln recognized that we could not survive as a free land when some men could decide that others were not fit to be free and should therefore be slaves. Likewise, we cannot survive as a free nation when some men decide that others are not fit to live and should be abandoned to abortion or infanticide. My Administration is dedicated to the preservation of America as a free land, and there is no cause more important for preserving that freedom than affirming the transcendent right to life of all human beings, the right without which no other rights have any meaning.

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 8:58 AM

KinleyArdal you’re a drama queen. I’ve been reading just since my last comment, and my God you are dramatic and a horrible over generalizer.

If we don’t have a country anymore because of fiscal destruction, there’s no way to fight for the protection of babies.

Don’t be obtuse. Just because I say I’m for prioritizing the fiscal before the social does not mean I’m dark hearted or just making promises I won’t keep. I’m not f’in Whimpy (admittedly not your word) and nor is anyone else here.

You have to have a country in which to fight for your society. Without it, you have no power to stop that which you/I/we abhor.

Once again, I am NOT and I repeat NOT making a judgment call on the guy that made the statement. I don’t know who he is, he’s not in my state and I don’t care who he is. But he has a point. I was stating my opinion on that point. Period. Then you decided to call me disingenuous. You don’t know me from Adam. So don’t try to put words in my mouth.

tickleddragon on June 10, 2010 at 8:17 PM

I did not say that you are disingenuous, but I did say that it would not happen as you said.

Put bluntly, nothing much happened under Reagan, despite the man’s firm commitment to combating abortion. Nothing happened under Bush. We did get the partial-birth abortion ban under Bush 2nd, who is decried as the worst possible alternative to McCain in 2000, or, hell, Gore in 2000.

People with that kind of thinking need to wake up and smell the roses. Do you think four years of McCain would not have led to a Democrat as president? McCain is a train wreck – look no further than AP’s video series on McCain’s “build the damn fence” 180s. McCain did as well as he did in 2008′s election, I think, because enough people were wide awake and screaming about the prospects of an Obama presidency, which, unfortunately, we are now in the midst of. >.>

I’m off topic, so I’ll make this quick – when the nation is once again, wealthy, the populace will quickly forget topics that do not directly affect them. That is human nature – we coined the phrase “out of sight, out of mind” for a reason. Leaving everything else I said aside – which is all perfectly valid, I do tend to be a drama queen where murder is involved (pity that you aren’t) – this alone should be enough to show the futility of this “we’ll get back to abortion after we save the nation!!” tripe.

People didn’t really ‘get’ to it since ’73. You really think that you can co-opt the ‘social cons’ to hang their heads and do what the ‘people of reason’ want, and leave them to hope that they’ll actually come back to the issue later? Ground yourself in reality, the world does not work like that.

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 9:11 AM

Oh, and he didn’t have Sarah Palin in 2000. There’s that, too. :3

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 9:20 AM

KinleyArdal, on June 14, 1967, Ronald Reagan signed the Therapeutic Abortion Act, after six months as California governor. From a total of 518 legal abortions in California in 1967, the number of abortions would soar to an annual average of 100,000 in the remaining years of Reagan’s two terms.

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 10:15 AM

Daniels has very good social-conservative credentials in his personal life. He just doesn’t think it’s government’s job to legislate morality. Is that position really too liberal? I think a lot of voters would agree with him that our job is to work towards a smaller government.

I wish religious leaders would embrace this philosophy more; it would end up giving more power on social issues back to them.

Democrats make these sorts of concessions to political reality all the time; they typically all grin and bear it until AFTER their candidate gets elected.

hawksruleva on June 11, 2010 at 10:24 AM

No opinion on global warming?? Social issue on back burnier when babies are being killed left and right?? Traditional marriage being attacked ?? I had been keeping my eye s on him as maybe a good one for 2012 but not any more-

Bullhead on June 11, 2010 at 10:27 AM

Amen to that…we are in dire, desperate need of persuasion and not pandering.

To say nothing of pre-emptive, unilateral disarmament.

Cylor on June 11, 2010 at 12:08 AM

Read the entire Weekly Standard profile. If nothing else, Mitch is honest with voters, and takes thoughtful positions on issues and then sticks with them.

hawksruleva on June 11, 2010 at 10:27 AM

Mitch Daniels = BUSH RINO

It’s just that simple.

PappyD61 on June 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM

No, it’s not. Are you saying Daniels would increase spending the way Bush did? I don’t think anyone who’s looked at his body of work would come away with that idea.

hawksruleva on June 11, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Not everyone on the right cares about dead babies and other people’s knickers.

Social Conservatives are the reason why, when I was much younger and still in High School, I would have called myself a Liberal.

I’m older now and have learned that despite the ball and chain the social cons represent, conservatism is right and true, while liberalism is evil incarnate.

But that doesn’t mean I have to like the social cons. I really do wish they’d go away.

leereyno on June 11, 2010 at 10:53 AM

No, it’s not. Are you saying Daniels would increase spending the way Bush did? I don’t think anyone who’s looked at his body of work would come away with that idea.

hawksruleva on June 11, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Good points. Daniels would be a strong candidate if a top concern becomes decline of the US as a dominant economic power, and Obama’s inability to control spending.

Most of the social issues should be handled by the states, not the POTUS.

Tony Perkins fundamentally misunderstands history if he thinks the founders didn’t make important compromises in order to get the nation up and running.

dedalus on June 11, 2010 at 11:11 AM

Rolls-Royce was going to leave Indianapolis. They stayed and even added jobs – because of daylight time. Go on. Ask them. They were up front about it.
Actually, Honda did not commit to Greensburg until Daylight Time passed. Read up on it. Without daylight time Honda would likely have gone to Ohio. They have been open about it, too. I suppose Greensburg didn’t really need those jobs, though.
Yes, the lack of daylight time was a major headache for businesses and
contributed in no small part to Indiana’s brain drain and the national perception of the state as being full of idiots. Bringing Eastern Daylight Time to Indiana removed a big cause of that perception and brought us in line with the test of the US.
But you apparently feel it’s more important to be in line with China than the rest of the US. Do you by chance work for the State Department?
Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 9:47 PM
No Rolls-Royce wasn’t. It had alot more to do with the tax credits they got than anything about Daylight Savings. Go on, ask them.
Honda was already here and also committed because of generous tax credits… no daylight savings. Go one, ask them.
The brain drain had nothing to do with DST and everything to do with the loss of Ma Bell, RCA, Western Electric and many of the specialty auto technology centers (Delco Remy) that went elsewhere and replaced with menial factory jobs (like Rolls-Royce and Honda) No development like that has returned. Now, Mitch Daniels has tried to spur on development with other industrial centers… like… CHINA and JAPAN Who aren’t on DST but somehow the fact that we now change times and they don’t will help make us more technologically advanced?
The only company that was holding off coming here was FedEx who were supposed to relocate their HQ here from Tennessee but didn’t because a> our airport was too tiny and b> DST made everything too confusing. So a buncha investors got together and put up some seed capital while the tax payers footed the rest of the bill to build a new airport and then bankrolled the campaigns of both Democrats and Republicans to push DST through so th investors could reap some serious rewards. And FedEx BALKED.
I was in the meetings.
[...]
Skywise on June 10, 2010 at 11:59 PM

Sure you were. Given than you can’t even get the timing of the Honda plant right, I’ll take the word of the IEDC officials and the reporters who questioned them instead.

Lack of DST was a major problem for businesses. They never knew what time we were on. Dealing with businesses in other time zones (like the one I worked for when I lived in San Diego) resulted in at last 4 lost hours each business day. TV schedules were fouled up (for example, Bill O’Reilly would be on a 8 for part of the year and 7 for the other part; and the local stations had to tape delay everything, meaning no live national news for half the year. Major sporting events were thrown off because the major networks time football and basketball games from New York, so there was considerable grumbling in Indy when Pacer playoff games would start at 6 pm or the Colts start at noon; the networks will not adjust their time to Indiana. And many, many young educated people like daylight after work so they can go out – maybe play a round of golf, dinner outside, walking around Mass Ave or Broad Ripple during safer daylight hours. Maybe even get yardwork done during the week to keep weekends free.

And, finally, lack of DST gave the national perception that Indiana was isolated from the rest of the country, which means backwardness. Educated people who bring money and create jobs won’t move here and those already here try to move away to someplace that doesn’t create such inconveniences for no good reason at all.

Pro Cynic on June 11, 2010 at 11:17 AM

KinleyArdal, on June 14, 1967, Ronald Reagan signed the Therapeutic Abortion Act, after six months as California governor. From a total of 518 legal abortions in California in 1967, the number of abortions would soar to an annual average of 100,000 in the remaining years of Reagan’s two terms.

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 10:15 AM

Very good, Jim. Now tell us the rest of the story.

I am a Christian, and so I forgive. Moreover, I think Reagan himself regretted that more than anyone. Now, will you enlighten the rest of the class, or should I do it for you?

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 10:15 AM

The Googler, who more often then not, stops Googling when he finds the answer he is looking for…and if he just went another “google” or two, he would know the truth…or he goes there and ignores the truth.
Keep posting Jimbo, you are F’in brilliant…

Therefore, he decided to do what he could to make the bill less harmful, arguing for the insertion of certain language that eliminated its worst features and allowed for abortion only in rare cases — such as rape or incest, or where pregnancy would gravely impair the physical or mental health of the mother.

Reagan biographer Lou Cannon notes that even the bill’s Democratic sponsor confessed to being surprised that physicians so liberally interpreted the law.

Reagan was shocked at the unintended consequences of his action. Morris said Reagan was left with an “undefinable sense of guilt” after watching abortions skyrocket. Cannon claims this was “the only time as governor or president that Reagan acknowledged a mistake on major legislation.” Clark called the incident “perhaps Reagan’s greatest disappointment in public life.”

For Reagan, one good thing did come out of this disappointment. As Georgetown’s Matt Sitman notes, “It is impossible to understand his later staunchly pro-life positions without grasping the lessons he learned from this early political battle.” Reagan, says Sitman, survived the ordeal with a “profoundly intellectual understanding of the abortion issue…. It was in 1967 that his ideas concerning the beginning of human life were fully formed.” He now had a cogent understanding, politically and morally, of abortion and its implications.

Too bad Jimbo you can’t be totally honest and totally informed…you just know enough to comfort yourself.

right2bright on June 11, 2010 at 12:24 PM

right2bright on June 11, 2010 at 12:24 PM

+1000, good sir.

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 12:38 PM

Not everyone on the right cares about dead babies and other people’s knickers.

Would you care more if you thought of them as dead children? 45,000,000 are missing, and they’ve left a huge, gaping hole in our society. We’re trying to fill it with pets (to have small creatures to love) and illegal aliens (to do entry-level jobs), and neither tactic is working.

But that doesn’t mean I have to like the social cons. I really do wish they’d go away.

leereyno on June 11, 2010 at 10:53 AM

Wish all you like. The abortion issue doesn’t admit of compromise, because the line between life and death is clear and bright. A person is either alive or dead — there is no in-between. An unborn person is alive.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 12:52 PM

A jobless guy who’s wondering how to feed his family is generally not going to give a squat about abortion. Nor should he. He has more important priorities. And so should the GOP.

If we don’t realize that then we don’t deserve to govern.

Pro Cynic on June 10, 2010 at 7:25 PM

Hitler circa 1939: “A jobless guy who’s wondering how to feed his family is generally not going to give a squat about [my death camps]. Nor should he. He has more important priorities.”

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 12:53 PM

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 12:53 PM

Umm, careful there, that’s perilously close to breaking Godwin’s Law!

But it’s true that most people are only preoccupied with their own concerns. If we had been paying attention to what’s been going on in the public schools for the last 30 years or so, for example, the progressives could never have gotten as far as they have.

A person without a job still has a mind and a conscience that can be appealed to. If we have to answer the direct and bald question “What’s in it for me?” before getting someone’s vote, I think the answer is this:

45,000,000 absent children means fewer jobs to go around: Fewer babysitters, day care workers, makers of children’s clothing and toys, teachers, children’s furniture makers, playground equipment manufacturers, pediatric nurses, pediatricians, children’s book publishers, kiddie TV show producers and filmmakers, etc. etc.

45,000,000 absent teenagers means illegal aliens coming in to take the low-wage jobs that teenagers used to do while still living at home, jobs that helped them learn how to do adult work.

45,000,000 absent young adults means fewer people to pay taxes, fewer people to take care of the old folks, fewer people to serve in the armed forces, fewer inventors to think up new ideas.

Liberalizing abortion has done real economic harm to our society at large and to our hypothetical jobless guy, and he doesn’t even know it.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 1:08 PM

I don’t think it’s stretching a point to say that the real estate crash may be related in a small way to Roe v. Wade.

The primary cause was the Clinton administration’s legislation (was it the Community Reinvestment Act? I forget the title) that required lending companies *not* to consider the economic status of borrowers when giving mortgage loans.

Plenty of those loans went to people (some of whom were in the country illegally) holding low-wage jobs whose wages were never meant to support a family on. Those jobs were traditionally done by teenagers and college students.

Another contributing factor: Families with children usually start out in a small house, then trade up to a bigger one as their family grows. This puts small houses on the market for younger families starting out. Fewer families means less turnover in the real estate market; prices of entry-level homes stay high because supply is small, but the younger families who are out there can’t afford them at those prices, so they remain unsold. Nobody benefits.

(Disclaimer: I am not a real-estate expert. I don’t even own a house (can’t afford one).)

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 1:19 PM

Another sorely-needed statement of the obvious…which will likely be ignored and/or rejected by the majority, along with the person who said it. Even though we desperately need to hear such a message.

Accepting the status quo on social issues for a few years, or even a decade or two, is NOT the same thing as accepting it as the new ‘normal’. Because to put it very bluntly, if we can’t get the economy turned around pronto, all other issues will soon become academic.

And joe_doufu makes a very good point – if enough of America is in desperate enough economic straits, the land will be ripe for a ‘superman’ to come save the day. Don’t think for a minute that we’re immune. It came uncomfortable close to happening in the 30′s.

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 1:24 PM

Wish all you like. The abortion issue doesn’t admit of compromise, because the line between life and death is clear and bright. A person is either alive or dead — there is no in-between. An unborn person is alive.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 12:52 PM

The compromise comes in what the government can do to reduce the number of abortions. Right now, the states have the ability to greatly restrict abortion after viability. That’s in the hands of state legislators and governors, not the president.

A president can appoint textualists like Scalia to the court, but even if a future court overturned Roe you’d likely have 50 different state laws with probably none of them restricting abortions from the moment of conception.

dedalus on June 11, 2010 at 1:28 PM

Right now, the states have the ability to greatly restrict abortion after viability. That’s in the hands of state legislators and governors, not the president.

Is that still true since Roe v. Wade? I would think that a person living in a state whose laws are more restrictive would have grounds to bring a federal case. If this is not true, please correct me.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 1:32 PM

Handing the GOP over to the principle-less BIG FED GOV RINOs has worked so well for the country (and the party).

No more RINOS and no more Bushes or Bushies in leadership positions in the Party.

Mitch Daniels = BUSH RINO

It’s just that simple.

PappyD61 on June 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM
Yep. Didn’t Bush use to call him my “My man Mitch”? Why the hell would we want a Bush clone? Enough already with these Ivy League RINOs.

Norwegian on June 11, 2010 at 12:34 AM

PappyD61 on June 11, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Mary, it’s not a bad theory (the link between abortion and the housing crisis). Maybe you should write an article on it and send it to some conservative magazines or newspapers.

As many in this thread have said, hard times are the times when you figure out what you’re made of. If we can’t find our moral core now, we’re never going to “get around to it” when and if we ever get rich and powerful again. It is when you go bankrupt that you realize, hey, being bankrupt isn’t half as bad as being sick, or alone, or dead.

I think that’s why you see so many smiling faces at the tea parties — people are rediscovering that America really does have a moral compass, and that justifies hope.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 1:51 PM

And joe_doufu makes a very good point – if enough of America is in desperate enough economic straits, the land will be ripe for a ’superman’ to come save the day. Don’t think for a minute that we’re immune. It came uncomfortable close to happening in the 30’s.

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 1:24 PM

You misinterpret my point. Daniels is making the same appeal as Hitler’s leftist defenders did: “Hey, he’ll be great for the economy! Nevermind the other stuff…” Its an argument that worked on a degenerate people whose moral compass had been lost. It won’t work on Americans. (Or if it does, we’re screwed period.)

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 1:56 PM

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 1:24 PM

While its true that a President shouldn’t be on the front lines on social issues, he shouldn’t ignore them either. This is the mistake that people make in calling a truce…the left won’t honor the truce, they will continue to push the social norms. The President more than any other person can touch on a topic and it becomes the topic of the day. So while the President should focus on cutting the size of government ( which is the best thing to restore America ) and should concern himself in foreign policy and should concern himself in defending and protecting the constitution, he shouldn’t ignore the social issues.

Here is a winning position…I am admittedly for smaller government, it is out of control…and it will do much to restore America the way the founders intended it. You see you don’t need to say anything about social issues. Then if the topic comes up the simple statement…I am for freedom, live and let live, except if your actions effect someone else’s ability to have life-liberty-and the pursuit of happiness. A woman has a right to choose what she does with her body, the choice was made when she had sex. In the cases where she was forced to have sex, then getting cleaned up soon after is understandable, we aren’t talking about the rare case of rape or incest, rather we are talking about the general case. Abortions have become a convenience choice…but Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is something I take quite seriously, hence I am pro-life, pro-liberty and pro-give-people-a-chance-to-make-it-or-fail.

Conservative Voice on June 11, 2010 at 1:56 PM

Is that still true since Roe v. Wade? I would think that a person living in a state whose laws are more restrictive would have grounds to bring a federal case. If this is not true, please correct me.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 1:32 PM

Roe finds a Constitutional right to privacy for the woman at around 28 weeks. The Casey decision in 1992 moved that protection to around 23 weeks based on a measure of “viability” rather than “trimester”.

After viability, states can put very significant restrictions on abortion access–and some do.

dedalus on June 11, 2010 at 2:00 PM

You see you don’t need to say anything about social issues. Then if the topic comes up the simple statement…

Yeah, but “pro-life” isn’t a badge you wear. It means that you will take actual action to preserve innocent life. And that means taking on Roe vs Wade or working around it with legislation or a Constitutional amendment.

You can’t just say “I’m pro-life” as the two presidents Bush did, without taking action on it. Pro-life Americans are sick and tired of being patronized by fake-pro-life politicians.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:02 PM

Reagan was shocked at the unintended consequences of his action. Morris said Reagan was left with an “undefinable sense of guilt” after watching abortions skyrocket. Cannon claims this was “the only time as governor or president that Reagan acknowledged a mistake on major legislation.” Clark called the incident “perhaps Reagan’s greatest disappointment in public life.”

For Reagan, one good thing did come out of this disappointment. As Georgetown’s Matt Sitman notes, “It is impossible to understand his later staunchly pro-life positions without grasping the lessons he learned from this early political battle.” Reagan, says Sitman, survived the ordeal with a “profoundly intellectual understanding of the abortion issue…. It was in 1967 that his ideas concerning the beginning of human life were fully formed.” He now had a cogent understanding, politically and morally, of abortion and its implications.
Too bad Jimbo you can’t be totally honest and totally informed…you just know enough to comfort yourself.

right2bright on June 11, 2010 at 12:24 PM

–I can. So Reagan had a Romney-like conversion, according to his official biographer?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:08 PM

Yeah, but “pro-life” isn’t a badge you wear. It means that you will take actual action to preserve innocent life. And that means taking on Roe vs Wade or working around it with legislation or a Constitutional amendment.

You can’t just say “I’m pro-life” as the two presidents Bush did, without taking action on it. Pro-life Americans are sick and tired of being patronized by fake-pro-life politicians.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:02 PM

–So I assume you’ll be coming over to my house to kill me and all of the other pro-choicers in the US. Is that the action you’re planning?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:10 PM

–So I assume you’ll be coming over to my house to kill me and all of the other pro-choicers in the US. Is that the action you’re planning?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:10 PM

Well, that worked on the pro-slavery people. Hope it doesn’t come to that again. *shrug*

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:12 PM

person without a job still has a mind and a conscience that can be appealed to. If we have to answer the direct and bald question “What’s in it for me?” before getting someone’s vote, I think the answer is this:

45,000,000 absent children means fewer jobs to go around: Fewer babysitters, day care workers, makers of children’s clothing and toys, teachers, children’s furniture makers, playground equipment manufacturers, pediatric nurses, pediatricians, children’s book publishers, kiddie TV show producers and filmmakers, etc. etc.

45,000,000 absent teenagers means illegal aliens coming in to take the low-wage jobs that teenagers used to do while still living at home, jobs that helped them learn how to do adult work.

45,000,000 absent young adults means fewer people to pay taxes, fewer people to take care of the old folks, fewer people to serve in the armed forces, fewer inventors to think up new ideas.

Liberalizing abortion has done real economic harm to our society at large and to our hypothetical jobless guy, and he doesn’t even know it.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 1:08 PM

–45 million less people also means a whole lot less competition for job for people who are currently out of work. And if you’re moaning about all the people who aren’t here because of abortion, why don’t you go on and moan about the 100s of millions of people who aren’t here because of birth control.

Another contributing factor: Families with children usually start out in a small house, then trade up to a bigger one as their family grows. This puts small houses on the market for younger families starting out. Fewer families means less turnover in the real estate market; prices of entry-level homes stay high because supply is small, but the younger families who are out there can’t afford them at those prices, so they remain unsold. Nobody benefits.

(Disclaimer: I am not a real-estate expert. I don’t even own a house (can’t afford one).)

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 1:19 PM

–The existing stock of entry-level homes was, in general, built a few decades ago when we had more baby boomers buying those houses. To the extent the supply equalled demand twenty years ago, and demand is now less, then you should actually benefit.

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM


So I assume you’ll be coming over to my house to kill me and all of the other pro-choicers in the US. Is that the action you’re planning?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:10 PM
Well, that worked on the pro-slavery people. Hope it doesn’t come to that again. *shrug*

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:12 PM

–Well, it all depends on how far you want to push this. Looks like I’ll need to start buying guns and ammo for self defense, I guess.

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:17 PM

Conservative Voice on June 11, 2010 at 1:56 PM

I disagree with you only in that it is not only the hard-left that is uninterested in a social ‘truce’; just look at the comments on this thread.

And as to Daniel’s electability…

Morally speaking, he is a noble soul. Politically speaking, he’s an idio. Anyone who the extremists on BOTH sides in modern-day America to bury the hatchet is about as electable as Jack the Ripper. But that’s the way it goes.

Although there are some exceptions to the rule. As our financial situation grows more dire by the month, even those with hardcore stances are recognizing that without fiscal solvency one is pretty much helpless to effect any social change. Again, just look on this thread. Hopefully enough of them, left and right, will come to their senses so that America can begin recovery…

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 2:19 PM

I wish he hadn’t called it a “truce”, but more of a “grand bargain for limited government”. Given that a large government in the US is far more likely to be aggressively leftist than so-con, the best so-cons can hope for limited government that doesn’t obstruct their concerns. Getting the Feds out of the abortion business is part of getting them out of all things medical. If you want some level of morals and religious education in school, getting the government out of education management and curriculum creation is the way to do it.

Add to that, the fact that all Americans will benefit from a government that lives with its means and leaves more means in the marketplace will benefit socons as well as everyone else and you have the makings of a “grand bargain”.

foobarista on June 11, 2010 at 2:24 PM

Well, it all depends on how far you want to push this. Looks like I’ll need to start buying guns and ammo for self defense, I guess.

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:17 PM

How far? We’ll push it until we win, of course. Unlike you on the left, conservatives don’t buy into the general belief that civilization is on permanent, irreversible decline into inhumanity and failure. When your side said “slavery is inevitable, it’s always been that way” we dared to dream of a world without slavery. Now you say “abortion is inevitable, it’s the modern way of the world” but we know you’re wrong. The question isn’t “which side will fight harder?” because we already know the answer. The question is just when, and who will lead us.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:27 PM

Jimbo3, if the wingnut brigade gives you any worse than beer talk or Internet Mouth threats, inform your neighbors and make plans for mutual protection. An effective neighborhood watch is a good deterrent for scum of all kinds. An armed one is even better.

Be ready to speak their language (firearms and violence) right back at them – but only in strict self-defense. Our society does not look kindly on armed intruders, but gunfights in the street between civilian groups are hardly welcome in a civilized nation.

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Given that a large government in the US is far more likely to be aggressively leftist than so-con, the best so-cons can hope for limited government that doesn’t obstruct their concerns. Getting the Feds out of the abortion business is part of getting them out of all things medical.

foobarista on June 11, 2010 at 2:24 PM

Unfortunately the Supreme Court decision make abortion-on-demand the permanent law of the land. The “federalist” position of leaving it to the states would be welcomed by the pro-life site, but unfortunately, we need a massive nationwide and federal effort (like a constitutional amendment) in order to restore that “limited government” situation. A president who says “I’m not going to make an effort” is by default endorsing the Supreme Court’s royal decree.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:31 PM

Sure you were. Given than you can’t even get the timing of the Honda plant right, I’ll take the word of the IEDC officials and the reporters who questioned them instead.

Lack of DST was a major problem for businesses. They never knew what time we were on. Dealing with businesses in other time zones (like the one I worked for when I lived in San Diego) resulted in at last 4 lost hours each business day. TV schedules were fouled up (for example, Bill O’Reilly would be on a 8 for part of the year and 7 for the other part; and the local stations had to tape delay everything, meaning no live national news for half the year. Major sporting events were thrown off because the major networks time football and basketball games from New York, so there was considerable grumbling in Indy when Pacer playoff games would start at 6 pm or the Colts start at noon; the networks will not adjust their time to Indiana. And many, many young educated people like daylight after work so they can go out – maybe play a round of golf, dinner outside, walking around Mass Ave or Broad Ripple during safer daylight hours. Maybe even get yardwork done during the week to keep weekends free.

And, finally, lack of DST gave the national perception that Indiana was isolated from the rest of the country, which means backwardness. Educated people who bring money and create jobs won’t move here and those already here try to move away to someplace that doesn’t create such inconveniences for no good reason at all.

Pro Cynic on June 11, 2010 at 11:17 AM

Yup, I was.

First off, Honda was ALREADY HERE. Secondly, do you honestly, really, truly think that Honda said “Oh we won’t build another plant in Indiana until they get on DST because it just screws us up when we have to synchronize our clocks we don’t change in JAPAN.”… oh wait… you do think that. It was the tax credits, plain and simple.

There was NEVER a problem with DST and businesses it was all made up as political propaganda so Mitch Daniels could look oh so super competent. And oh yeah… save energy. Remember? DST was going to save us billions in energy. Notice you haven’t been reiterating that lie.

Many, many young educated people like more sunshine in THE MORNING too. To play an early round of golf or to go jogging in the morning. It’s also safer for children at bus stops.

Again, the only reason DST was passed was because a few fat cat rich guys who wanted to invest in a new airport paid off both Democrats and Republicans and ran a multi-million dollar propaganda kool-aid campaign (that you happily sucked down I see because you’re spewing their same talking points) because they would get kick backs if FedEx moved their HQ here because they had insider info that the ONLY reason FedEx refused was because of DST. So they did, FedEx didn’t and then the fat cats lobbied the Democrats and Republicans to put the airport losses on us tax payers.

This is what Mitch Daniels approved.

Skywise on June 11, 2010 at 2:34 PM

why don’t you social con’s just elect a muslim cleric to deliver fatwas and get really conservative? I hear they are like fiscally conservative too!
Or you could just keep your religion in your pants.

Zekecorlain on June 11, 2010 at 2:46 PM

why don’t you social con’s just elect a muslim cleric to deliver fatwas and get really conservative?

Zekecorlain on June 11, 2010 at 2:46 PM

And see Sarah Palin, Laura Ingraham, Megyn Kelley et al covered up by a burkha? No thanks!

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 3:04 PM

Yeah, but “pro-life” isn’t a badge you wear. It means that you will take actual action to preserve innocent life. And that means taking on Roe vs Wade or working around it with legislation or a Constitutional amendment.

You can’t just say “I’m pro-life” as the two presidents Bush did, without taking action on it. Pro-life Americans are sick and tired of being patronized by fake-pro-life politicians.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:02 PM

–So I assume you’ll be coming over to my house to kill me and all of the other pro-choicers in the US. Is that the action you’re planning?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:10 PM

From this, you extrapolate yet another attempt on your life.

Jim, you’re such a damn coward… have you no shame at all? Do you, as a man, not mind at all crying your eyes out and screaming “they’re gonna come hurt me!!!”

You…. I have no words. Gutless, spineless, terrible coward.

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 3:09 PM

Another attempt on your pathetic* life, I might add.

You barely merit pity, let alone a glance, but I cannot help but be intrigued at the human trainwreck beyond the keyboard.

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 3:10 PM

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 3:09 PM

–So I assume you’ll be coming over to my house to kill me and all of the other pro-choicers in the US. Is that the action you’re planning?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:10 PM

Well, that worked on the pro-slavery people. Hope it doesn’t come to that again. *shrug*

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 2:12 PM

It is from THAT which Jimbo extrapolates a threat on his life, you wind-up dittohead, although wether joe_doufus is stupid/drunk enough to actually try anything is anybody’s guess.

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 3:27 PM

It is from THAT which Jimbo extrapolates a threat on his life, you wind-up dittohead, although wether joe_doufus is stupid/drunk enough to actually try anything is anybody’s guess.

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 3:27 PM

For Dark-Star and the rest of you who went to public school, I was referring to the Civil War and expressing hope that it doesn’t have to repeat itself.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 3:34 PM

It is from THAT which Jimbo extrapolates a threat on his life, you wind-up dittohead, although wether joe_doufus is stupid/drunk enough to actually try anything is anybody’s guess.

Dark-Star on June 11, 2010 at 3:27 PM

And that did indeed come afterwards. From whence was it extrapolated beforehand? That was my question.

I’m not a dittohead either. >.> Thanks, though. Oh, and that’s “whether”.

KinleyArdal on June 11, 2010 at 3:41 PM

For Dark-Star and the rest of you who went to public school, I was referring to the Civil War and expressing hope that it doesn’t have to repeat itself.

joe_doufu on June 11, 2010 at 3:34 PM

Didn’t the big government progressives win that war and the states rights social conservatives lose?

dedalus on June 11, 2010 at 3:45 PM

45 million less people also means a whole lot less competition for job for people who are currently out of work.

That would only be true if we had no illegal aliens here trying to support families on the wages of jobs that were traditionally done by teenagers.

And if you’re moaning about all the people who aren’t here because of abortion, why don’t you go on and moan about the 100s of millions of people who aren’t here because of birth control.

Because it wouldn’t help. There are a lot of ways to keep sperm and egg from coming together, and none of them are morally wrong in the same way as killing a life already started.

–The existing stock of entry-level homes was, in general, built a few decades ago when we had more baby boomers buying those houses. To the extent the supply equalled demand twenty years ago, and demand is now less, then you should actually benefit.

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM

If the market weren’t being completely screwed with, you’d be right. The problem is that people aren’t moving out of those starter homes because they can’t afford to, so no one moves up.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 4:23 PM

why don’t you social con’s just elect a muslim cleric to deliver fatwas and get really conservative? I hear they are like fiscally conservative too!
Or you could just keep your religion in your pants.

Zekecorlain on June 11, 2010 at 2:46 PM

Nothing particularly fiscally conservative or free-market about Islam. The economies of Muslim countries are extremely backward, in fact. You have a few very rich people, a lot of poor people, and not many people in between.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 4:27 PM

–So I assume you’ll be coming over to my house to kill me and all of the other pro-choicers in the US. Is that the action you’re planning?

Jimbo3 on June 11, 2010 at 2:10 PM

In a word, no. The Fourth Commandment is pretty clear: “Thou shalt do no murder.” That applies to both born and unborn persons. The few nutjobs who have killed abortion doctors are just that — nutjobs, motivated by a desperate rage and a notion of vigilante justice. They should be tried for murder and sentenced appropriately.

After seeing all the evidence that unborn babies are persons with rights, why do you still call yourself “pro-choice”? If it’s only out of reflexive disgust at being associated with “those embarrassing wingnuts”, then you haven’t thought your position through.

Mary in LA on June 11, 2010 at 4:33 PM

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