Did Congress really vote to repeal DADT?
posted at 1:36 pm on May 28, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
With Congress basking in the media afterglow of its vote last night on Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, Rob Neppell asks an inconvenient question about what exactly passed. Did this bill actually repeal DADT? Did it even repeal it if the Pentagon approves an end to the policy? A look at the legislative language makes it appear more that Congress simply punted the question back to the White House:
H.AMDT.672 (A019)
Amends: H.R.5136
Sponsor: Rep Murphy, Patrick J. [PA-8] (offered 5/27/2010)AMENDMENT PURPOSE:
An amendment numbered 79 printed in House Report 111-498 to repeal Dont Ask Dont Tell only after: (1) receipt of the recommendations of the Pentagon’s Comprehensive Review Working Group on how to implement a repeal of DADT (due December 1, 2010) and (2) a certification by the Secretary of Defense, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and President that repeal is first, consistent with military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion & recruiting, and second, that the DoD has prepared the necessary policies and regulations to implement its repeal. It would also include a 60 day period after certification before the repeal took effect.——————————————————–
79. AN AMENDMENT TO BE OFFERED BY REPRESENTATIVE MURPHY, PATRICK OF PENNSYLVANIA OR HIS DESIGNEE, DEBATABLE FOR 10 MINUTES
At the end of subtitle D of title V, add the following new section:
SEC. 5XX. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE POLICY CONCERNING HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE ARMED FORCES.
(a) Comprehensive Review on the Implementation of a Repeal of 10 U.S.C. 654-
(1) IN GENERAL- On March 2, 2010, the Secretary of Defense issued a memorandum directing the Comprehensive Review on the Implementation of a Repeal of 10 U.S.C. 654 (section 654 of title 10, United States Code).
(2) OBJECTIVES AND SCOPE OF REVIEW- The Terms of Reference accompanying the Secretary’s memorandum established the following objectives and scope of the ordered review:
(A) Determine any impacts to military readiness, military effectiveness and unit cohesion, recruiting/retention, and family readiness that may result from repeal of the law and recommend any actions that should be taken in light of such impacts.
(B) Determine leadership, guidance, and training on standards of conduct and new policies.
(C) Determine appropriate changes to existing policies and regulations, including but not limited to issues regarding personnel management, leadership and training, facilities, investigations, and benefits.
(D) Recommend appropriate changes (if any) to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
(E) Monitor and evaluate existing legislative proposals to repeal 10 U.S.C. 654 and proposals that may be introduced in the Congress during the period of the review.
(F) Assure appropriate ways to monitor the workforce climate and military effectiveness that support successful follow-through on implementation.
(G) Evaluate the issues raised in ongoing litigation involving 10 U.S.C. 654.
(b) Effective Date- The amendments made by subsection (f) shall take effect 60 days after the date on which the last of the following occurs:
(1) The Secretary of Defense has received the report required by the memorandum of the Secretary referred to in subsection (a).
(2) The President transmits to the congressional defense committees a written certification, signed by the President, the Secretary of Defense, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, stating each of the following:
(A) That the President, the Secretary of Defense, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have considered the recommendations contained in the report and the report’s proposed plan of action.
(B) That the Department of Defense has prepared the necessary policies and regulations to exercise the discretion provided by the amendments made by subsection (f).
(C) That the implementation of necessary policies and regulations pursuant to the discretion provided by the amendments made by subsection (f) is consistent with the standards of military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention of the Armed Forces.
(c) No Immediate Effect on Current Policy- Section 654 of title 10, United States Code, shall remain in effect until such time that all of the requirements and certifications required by subsection (b) are met. If these requirements and certifications are not met, section 654 of title 10, United States Code, shall remain in effect.
(d) Benefits- Nothing in this section, or the amendments made by this section, shall be construed to require the furnishing of benefits in violation of section 7 of title 1, United States Code (relating to the definitions of `marriage’ and `spouse’ and referred to as the `Defense of Marriage Act’).
(e) No Private Cause of Action- Nothing in this section, or the amendments made by this section, shall be construed to create a private cause of action.
(f) Treatment of 1993 Policy-
(1) TITLE 10- Upon the effective date established by subsection (b), chapter 37 of title 10, United States Code, is amended–
(A) by striking section 654; and
(B) in the table of sections at the beginning of such chapter, by striking the item relating to section 654.
(2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Upon the effective date established by subsection (b), section 571 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1994 (10 U.S.C. 654 note) is amended by striking subsections (b), (c), and (d).
If that’s not a complete punt, it’s at least a drop-kick back to the White House. This bill doesn’t take effect at all unless the President certifies in writing that he wants the change to occur and that the military has prepared for it to occur. Barack Obama had dodged the question of DADT for the most part, offering public support but claiming that he wanted Congress to act instead of ordering the change himself. Now Congress has handed the issue back to Obama — or possibly even another President farther down the line — by forcing him to pull the trigger instead of Congress.
Some might wonder whether Congress had much choice. Of course they did; they could have waited for the Pentagon to publish its study in December and review it themselves at that point. Instead of including all of the folderol seen in Section 5xx (a) (2), at that point Congress could have then taken the action themselves by passing a law that executed subsection (f) immediately, or at some fixed date, without presidential action as a prerequisite. Obama would still have to have signed the bill to make it law, but he wouldn’t have had to provide Congress with a separate written request.
I support an end to DADT, but this really isn’t quite it, and Congress certainly knows it. They’re going to make Obama end it and take the heat.









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The Democrats give a whole new meaning to “Brothers in Arms“.
Dire Straits on May 28, 2010 at 1:40 PM
More like a brand new meaning to Political Aristocrats.
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 1:43 PM
As well he should; it’s his baby. As to the end effect, speaking as an NCO, … meh.
Doorgunner on May 28, 2010 at 1:44 PM
As somebody in the thread last night pointed out.
DADT as imposed by Clinton has been repealed. We’re now back to whatever rules were in place in 1992.
Skywise on May 28, 2010 at 1:46 PM
Good point. Captain Ed is correct.. they punted.
Dire Straits on May 28, 2010 at 1:47 PM
I’m still not a fan of repealing DADT. That being said, this seems to indicate that only the President can force an end to DADT prior to the Pentagon signing off on it. So the question is: What will the President do if the Pentagon says that it’s either unwise or unfeasible to repeal DADT at this time?
The sad part of modern political doublespeak is that, even with the bill passed by Congress sitting right in front of our face, we’re still not entirely certain what its outcome will be.
Sgt Steve on May 28, 2010 at 1:48 PM
Given that the President, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have all come out in support of the repeal, I doubt there will be anything in the December report that will change their mind.
Hopefullly, the DoD will use this time to craft new policies and regulations so the repeal will not become a complete goat rope.
BohicaTwentyTwo on May 28, 2010 at 1:49 PM
Hahaha…the topic put a “gay military dating” site up in the adspace in my session.
S. Weasel on May 28, 2010 at 1:51 PM
So the love affair between Dems in Congress, and Obama is over as well?
I also wanted to add….don’t Muslims frown on homesexuality? Even to the point of death? This might explain some of Obama’s apprehension on acting on anything remotely pertaining to homosexuals.
capejasmine on May 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM
Ed, have you and AP ever stated why you’re both for repeal of DADT?
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 2:02 PM
Status quo until ALL of the lengthy list of requirements are complied with. In other words, never gonna happen. They did not just kick the can down the road, they shot it into high earth orbit.
Johnnyreb on May 28, 2010 at 2:03 PM
Heres the scoop on the White House Protest that
denied Journalist right to cover it!!
==============================================
This Is My Mission
Following his stint in jail for chaining himself to the White House gates, Lt. Dan Choi speaks about civil disobedience, gay rights, and how the Army made him a better activist
=================================
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/21/this-is-my-mission.html
canopfor on May 28, 2010 at 2:07 PM
Technically true if DADT had actually been repealed, it hasn’t.
This ‘warning’ is being passed on to service members.
But you’re right, unless any legislation specifically states it, policy will revert to pre-DADT rules. After reading the above, it’s hard to think they’d be stupid enough to let that pass. The above legislation is the first I’ve read dealing with addressing the current applicable US Code section and dealing with amending the UCMJ.
catmman on May 28, 2010 at 2:08 PM
But then, you’ll not have to share a shower, a toilet without a stall wall, or bunks with open, aggressive young homosexuals, will you? Have you ever served? Have you ever seen the gay lifestyle up close and ugly?
quikstrike98 on May 28, 2010 at 2:09 PM
Because it will provide years of fodder for bloggers, tracking the problems it’ll cause for the military?
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 2:09 PM
So, if I understand correctly, they passed gas? Nothing of value?
CynicalOptimist on May 28, 2010 at 2:10 PM
The one thing that will not be repealed is Article 125 (sodomy) of the US military Code of Justice. This applies to heterosexuals and homosexuals. Court martial records of the past showed leniency for heterosexuals, but not homosexuals. I can just envision what happens when a homosexual puts on a hit on a heterosexual.
Big Nicholas on May 28, 2010 at 2:11 PM
Why Ed? Why do we have to force lifestyle acceptance on other people? Keep your private life, private.
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2010 at 2:11 PM
I’m sorry, but I just can’t read about this DADT crap without always thinking of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Dfs7jqFI
Fuzzlenutter on May 28, 2010 at 2:12 PM
Hey Ed. Like I said last night, anyone who is for repealing DADT should be required to eat, sleep. work and spend any precious free time with a gay dude by your side. That includes in your bedroom and shower. Every Single Day. Then get back to to us.
Guardian on May 28, 2010 at 2:15 PM
Was it really that bad, Guardian? Yikes.
crr6 on May 28, 2010 at 2:17 PM
I am constantly amazed at how people have no problem dictating to our country’s heroes how they should live, work and sleep with gay dudes 24/7 but would recoil in horror if they actually had to do it themselves.
Guardian on May 28, 2010 at 2:19 PM
I am unclear what we are talking about with this repeal:
Exactly how do you openly display your gayness in a shower with another guy?
faraway on May 28, 2010 at 2:22 PM
Well, except for the gays, who think it’s just grand…
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 2:23 PM
It’s amazing how many bloggers who have never been in the military (never had to live in open-bay barracks, use open shower facilities, take a dump in toilets with no privacy, etc.) are more than happy to force those that do live in those conditions to have to endure openly gay people leering at them.
rmgraha on May 28, 2010 at 2:23 PM
Why am I envisioning one of those bugs from the Orkin commercials?
“So…ummm… are we… dipping… skinny?”
Skywise on May 28, 2010 at 2:25 PM
Not for me. I’m old school. I’ve was out long before this DADT crap came along. But I know the military. They don’t give a crap about PC B.S. They have a loooong history of dealing with problems like this in their own way.
Guardian on May 28, 2010 at 2:25 PM
Has anyone studied the impact on recruitment?
faraway on May 28, 2010 at 2:26 PM
You’re confused. People in the military already to “live, work and sleep” with gay dudes. They’re just secret gay dudes. Isn’t that even more horrifying to a moron like you?
crr6 on May 28, 2010 at 2:27 PM
I dread the re-education/acceptance classes that would accompany this.
We already spend countless hours in harangs having to do with sexual harrassment grievance proceudures, drugs, alcohol, motorcycle safety, cultural acceptance, eating right, exercising more and more topics than I care to list.
It’s a social engineering dream – forcing the unwashed masses into re-education camps.
All I ask is that the cake cutting to commemorate gay appreciation month be optional.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 2:29 PM
crr6 on May 28, 2010 at 2:27 PM
Perhaps, but right now I don’t have to hear about it.
How about, don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t want to hear a damn thing about you, your sex life, your hopes and dreams, or anything else.
Here’s a vote for the non-Oprahization of the military.
Just go to work and STFU. I like that policy.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 2:31 PM
Please no-one answer this question!
I really don’t want to know.
My imagination has already grossed me out!
I used to go to the local gay disco back in the day…
I’d always go to the bathroom before I went because the “Women’s” bathroom was reputed to be even more scary than the “Men’s.”
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 2:32 PM
Again, someone that doesn’t know what they’re talking about is willing to dictate lifestyle requirements on the military. In the past, and under DADT, gays had to at least act normal (and yes, I’m using that word intentionally). Once they are allowed to ‘come out of the closet,’ and be actively gay, there is going to be a backlash from the non-gay troops. Exactly what that will be remains to be seen, but it won’t be good for the military or the United States.
rmgraha on May 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM
Not in the least. I have no problem with Gays serving in the military. As long as they KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES. DADT is the exact opposite. It is all about being OPENLY queer. If I don’t know the naked dude in the shower next me is gay..no problem. Ask me to join the military now knowing full well I would be required to live intimately with open homosexuality? Forget it. I would not join under those circumstances. I guarantee no good will come from this.
Guardian on May 28, 2010 at 2:34 PM
Could you explain why? Could you also come out and tell us what other items on the gay agenda you support and are willing to advocate for? Just curious.
JellyToast on May 28, 2010 at 2:35 PM
Guardian on May 28, 2010 at 2:15 PM
Not just a gay dude, but a flaming gay whose tries to flirt or whistle at you every time you drop the soap.
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2010 at 2:36 PM
Can’t stand it, can ya?
JetBoy on May 28, 2010 at 2:37 PM
rmgraha on May 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM
Its normal to be attracted to the opposite sex…so by your logic we should remove all boundaries around the sexes…so no girl and boy bathrooms…everyone showers together, poops together…sleeps together…and gets dress together. And if the men whistle at the ladies, or worst…they need to just accept the normal behavior and deal with it.
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2010 at 2:41 PM
Ed,
I don’t see where this is stated at all. All it says is:
Where does it say that Obama has to certify that he wants it? He just needs to certify that he’s considered the report (and that the DoD has prepared for it, and that it’s consistent with military standards, etc.).
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 2:42 PM
Ed and AP aren’t blogging from the same basement are they?
faraway on May 28, 2010 at 2:43 PM
Let’s just say that I’m hard pressed to understand how 2 such seemingly intelligent men can be so stupid.
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 2:44 PM
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2010 at 2:41 PM
The military is part of the federal government.
What will happen, what does happen is that straight white dudes will be disciplined, while minorities, females and gays will pull the victim card and get absolved from their errors.
Happens now and it will only get worse with this.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 2:45 PM
I’m so tired of non-military telling the military what is best for them. By HotAir.
BKeyser on May 28, 2010 at 2:45 PM
Simple. It’s not their burden to bear.
Guardian on May 28, 2010 at 2:46 PM
If DADT is repealed, what replaces it? Does the UCMJ revert to the days when homosexual behavior results in dishonorable discharge?
Everyone goes around talking about repeal but what replaces DADT?
Skandia Recluse on May 28, 2010 at 2:46 PM
Dude, we all know you are gay, we know where you stand, whilst making that stand please dont make enemies that you dont have to make. You know full well that many (probably most) of us oppose homosexuality purely on religious grounds.
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 2:47 PM
Long time no see…Hi!
DG, I only responded to Jenfidel’s comment as such because recently she’s said some pretty disgraceful things my way. That’s all.
Don’t forget…I’m religious too.
JetBoy on May 28, 2010 at 2:52 PM
Out: DADT
In: Snorkeling
faraway on May 28, 2010 at 2:54 PM
Are you really saying it’s only about keeping private issues private, and isn’t specific to being grossed out by homosexuality? Would you be okay with the military kicking out anyone who revealed their sexual orientation either way? So if you mention your wife, girlfriend, someone you think is attractive, or anything like that, you’re out of the military. Is that what you’re saying? If not, then why is it okay for a man to mention his wife, but if a woman mentions her partner then she’s kicked out?
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 2:57 PM
I don’t recall being uncivil to you.
As to you being religious, frankly, I think you’re a hypocrite.
You’re a Catholic who (secretly to the Church) practices homosexuality, which is a sin.
Unless you confess your sin and stop committing it, you’re still in a state of sin.
Them’s the facts.
I’m sure you’re working to repeal DADT in the Catholic Church, too.
The biggest problem with this repeal of DADT is that the only people who want it “have skin in the game:” their own.
Only the Gaystapo wants to change a military policy that’s been in place and served our country well since George Washington led the Continental Army
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:00 PM
Homosexuality is unnatural, deviant and perverse.
End of story.
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Good to see you as well, yes I remember your Catholic beliefs, and as you are well aware have come to respect your views and opinions, which is why I ask you to be careful and thoughtful of what comments you make.
You and Jenfidel apparently have issues, but remember Jenfidel isnt the only one who will read your comments and those others may not know as much about you as some of us old timers here.
It would be easy for those who do not know you through your posting to misunderstand your position on this issue. You could easily alienate people who you have no intention to alienate.
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 3:02 PM
Yeah, like, it would be nice to know how you were thinking this would be implemented. Just wondering. Like, do you really think this would just come down to repealing DADT and nothing more would happen? I mean, you know, the devil is in the details. As it always is. We all know that. Like, passing health care reform, or passing a jobs bill. Just coming out and saying you support clean air legislation or you like clean water. Just saying you support repealing DADT doesn’t actually clarify what exactly you do support.
1 Do you support sensitivity trainings?
2 Do you support soldiers openly saying they disagree with the homosexual lifestyle? If not, do you think such soldiers should be punished in some way?
3 Do you support a straight soldier’s right to not be forced to sleep with a gay soldier? Shower with a gay soldier?
4 Would you support the right of a gay soldier to sponsor a gay event on base? Have a gay march similar to all the other gay events around the country(nudity and public sex)?
5 Do you think an officer should be allowed to attend an event by an organization or church that does not support the gay lifestyle?
See, these are important questions. And there are plenty more than this, what about other minorities? Transgenders? Do they have a place in the military? Cross dressers? Do you support their rights too? Why or why not?
This is not about just repealing something called DADT, it is about implementing a whole host of new policies, laws and punishments to enforce this repeal, and to change this institution into something it never has been.
All so that a few gay people can “feel good” about themselves!
JellyToast on May 28, 2010 at 3:02 PM
So were the people who crucified Jesus.
JellyToast on May 28, 2010 at 3:03 PM
I’m for the repeal. If gay people want to volunteer to possibly sacrifice themselves for their country then they should be allowed to do so openly. All this fear mongering about the way gays will act with the restriction lifted is ignorant.
I’m a christian that thinks homosexuality is a sin but anyone who serves in our military deserves our respect.
Benaiah on May 28, 2010 at 3:04 PM
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 2:57 PM
I’m saying the purpose of the military is not to bring your cute little private life to work and to share. It’s not to talk about all of the wonderful little differences we have and how quirky little unique you is living the life.
So yes, how about we all just STFU about our private lives and go to work.
Then we can get rid of all of these stupid classes, the labeling, the classifications and the favoritism and just get the job done.
The military pretty much eliminated fun years ago on the altar of political correctness (someone’s feeling might get hurt) so yes, let’s go whole hog and just say that any talk that isn’t directly related to work at work will be cause for discipline.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 3:07 PM
Actually, that was the point I was making. If you see homosexuality as a sin, and as something that should not be tolerated by the government, then it makes sense to oppose gays in the military. I was responding to someone who made it seem like it wasn’t specifically about an aversion to homosexuality, just that private matters should be kept private in the military.
As for what you’re saying, I understand that’s your position, but it’s not the end of the story for many (most?) people, including those in the military who are in charge of policy. First, many people don’t think it’s sin or wrong or immoral. Second, many of those who do still don’t think it should mean endorsing policies like not allowing gays (open or not) in the military. So it’s not as simple as you say for many people.
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 3:09 PM
Amazing what happens when a costituency holds back on political contributions. So congress goes through a charade of “passing” a bill.
Obama backed down on its shabby treatment of Israel, but now Bibi is is his bff. Political money drying up is probably what’s at the bottom of this one too.
Corky Boyd on May 28, 2010 at 3:09 PM
“…and enjoying mortal sin.”
So… doublethink.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:09 PM
Just to be clear, by discipline do you mean being kicked out? And should the discipline be different for those who mention their heterosexual spouse than for those who mention their homosexual partner?
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Yes, they do which is why I don’t want our soldiers dishonored by being forced to serve with deviants (although I’m willing to bet that only a handful of homosexuals will sign up to join the “new, openly gay” military if DADT really is repealed).
This is just a backdoor to homosexual “marriage” and forcing this unnatural, perverse deathstyle on the rest of us in civilian life.
I am sick to death of these people!
I didn’t use to be a “h8ter” and was pretty “live and let live” about homosexuals but the more they push their agend–the F-agenda–on us, the more I despise them.
I’m about ready to explode about the many and various ways the Lefties are trying to destroy my country and this is just one of them!
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:12 PM
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Yeah, everybody just STFU and get to work.
Women and minorities already get a free pass on discipline, get promotion quotas and slither out of deployments and duty. Anyone who has served will say that, if they’re honest.
If we’re going to have yet another privileged victim class in homosexuals, it would help to actually get some work done at some point instead of being involved in perpetual excuse making and “sharing”, so how about everyone just focus on work in the little time we have together that’s not taken up by sensitivity classes, shall we?
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 3:17 PM
Yes, it is as simple as they say.
George Washington had men who committed sodomy executed.
Not only is homosexuality “sin, wrong and immoral,” it’s also unnatural, perverse and indecent even if you’re not religious.
I have yet to hear a single voice from the Gaystapo tell us what exactly is to be gained by the rest of the country by allowing open homosexuals to serve in the military.
Why should we change it?
What’s our “open gay” prize?
And the vast majority of our soldiers, when asked about it, say–almost to a man–that they do NOT want it.
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:17 PM
Amen brother. This is not about being fair. Whether you support gay rights just doesn’t matter. The only reason to repeal it is it will make the military better if it doesn’t (and I don’t think it will) then there is no reason to repeal it.
This is like the 100,000 program in the 70′s where 100,000 people who could not normally qualify for the military were allowed to join. It was a disaster.
Let me be clear; the U.S. military is NOT a social laboratory. It exists to kill people and break things, not to try social programs.
E9RET on May 28, 2010 at 3:17 PM
Jetboy’s relationship with god is between him and god, you dont have the right or authority to make judgments regarding that relationship. I suggest that if you believe in Jesus Christ yourself that you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as the scripture command and allow Jetboy to do the same.
Christianity left the dark ages of the Spanish Inquisition long behind it, if people like Jetboy are to be saved it will be exactly the same way you or I will be saved, our sins are no less egregious to god than his are.
Homosexuality is a sin, nothing more and nothing less, we are all sinners, though your sins may not be homosexuality they are equally deserving of eternal damnation don’t you ever forget that. With what measure you judge so shall you be judged, words do have meaning you know.
Nobody was ever saved by being hated to salvation.
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 3:18 PM
That level of argumentation shows a total disregard for the military, not to mention logic.
Rules like DADT are meant to serve the mission of the armed forces. Changing the rules to allow sodomists to serve openly is meant to serve sodomists. It is not meant to enhance mission capability.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:18 PM
rmgraha on May 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM
But would you be ok with no gender boundaries? To respect to gender, you will shower in an open shower, you will go the bathroom in an open bathroom, and sleep next to …?
And if someone is whistling in your general direction…you have to just accept it…you can’t complain, you can’t retaliate, you just have to “man up” and take it. You are creating a protected class, and you are infringing the rights and freedom of others who don’t want to deal with sexual tension as they are just trying to survive in the fox hole, or on the submarine.
Don’t ask don’t tell means that we respect boundaries, especially in regards to your sex life preference. Keep your private life private.
Conservative Voice on May 28, 2010 at 3:21 PM
I suspect that even a number of gays would be put out by it.
Count to 10 on May 28, 2010 at 3:22 PM
As soon as he interjects his religion into a conversation where one side is advocating that sex perversion be approved by the military, society, or his fellow bloggers, then it is no longer a private matter but one we are free to comment on.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:24 PM
It exists first to present a credible threat to kill people and break things, but actually doing it is a close second.
Count to 10 on May 28, 2010 at 3:24 PM
Why does it “serve sodomists” to allow them to talk about their partner any more than it “serves heterosexuals” to allow them to talk about their spouse? It’s just about not having rules that treat homosexuals differently by kicking them out if someone finds out who they’re attracted to.
I was only asking these questions to clarify that NoDonkey was really concerned about the private/public information issue, or whether it had to do with treating gay members differently. He said it’s the former. I’m fine with a policy like what he suggests, where no one can talk about anything that would indicate their sexual orientation either way. I don’t really see much of a point, and I think it’s impractical, but if the military thinks it’s important, then I don’t mind. Or a policy that just punishes talking openly about your sex life would make sense. But that’s different than kicking out a class of people just because you found out something about their private life.
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM
No, actually you are not, not unless you think you are Jesus Christ himself, barring you actually being Jesus Christ Jetboy’s relationship with God is off limits.
His views on DADT are perfectly legitimate things to question but there is no excuse for throwing around the kind of hatred that Jenfidel and others are throwing around.
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 3:32 PM
I am saved by faith through Grace in Jesus Christ.
JetBoy has openly bragged on this forum about being both practicing homosexual and going to Mass.
I’m a Protestant, but I do know that a “good” Catholic should not commit a mortal sin, confess it and then go back to sinning.
At least not if they’re following Christ’s and the Pope’s teachings.
He attacked me for my views and tried to use religion as his shield.
While I know that judging is wrong, I do know that if he’s telling the truth about what he does, he’s still in a state of sin.
That’s not a judgment, but an observation.
Otherwise, you’re right about God’s Saving Grace but you’re a little harsh about the way you say it works for us all.
Never forget: hate the sin, love the sinner.
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:34 PM
Thank you and bless you, Akzed, for saying it better than I did! :-)
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:35 PM
He brought it up for a reason – he thinks it helps his argument somehow.
Of course, it just makes him look more ridiculous.
And you stubbornly insisting that I shouldn’t comment on what he says is also ridiculous.
The Bible lays down certain rules for human behavior. When someone claiming to be a follower of the Author of that book flagrantly violates those rules, and argues for the right to do so, it’s called in the Old Testament “sinning with a high hand.”
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:39 PM
Not by works as well? That does explain a lot…
Are you aware of what constitutes a mortal sin? And as for Christ’s teachings, please point out what Jesus said about homosexuality…where He condemns any gay person…
JetBoy on May 28, 2010 at 3:39 PM
You have a nice smile!
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:40 PM
btw I “interject religion” when I’m accused or being inferred as being non-religious, or anti-Christian. I know you’d love for me to fit into your little stereotype of gays as Christian-haters, sorry to disappoint ya.
JetBoy on May 28, 2010 at 3:40 PM
Civilians are all hung up on the ethics of equality, but those who have served or are close to those in the Armed Forces tend to focus a little more on the logistics.
There’s a reason that military isn’t unionized but police and firefighters are– the military has different needs and thus has different requirements of those who serve.
You don’t have to disagree with homosexuality to oppose an end to DADT. You just have to understand that barracks are not like frat houses, and that people can’t just freely express themselves and expect it to go over well.
RachDubya on May 28, 2010 at 3:42 PM
He never condemned beastiality either genius.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:42 PM
I’m not sure what it means to say that it’s perverse and indecent (I’ll leave aside the involved argument about unnatural) even if you’re not religious. Is there even an objective standard of “decency”? Most nonreligious people I know don’t find homosexuality indecent or gross. And even if most people do find it gross, I’m not sure why that means it’s grounds for not being allowed to serve in the military.
I think you could say a lot of the same things about people who have a foot fetish or a weirder fetish. A lot of people find that unnatural, perverse, gross, indecent. But who cares? Should we kick a person out of the military because someone finds out that he likes being whipped by his wife?
You haven’t even heard people say what is to be gained from allowing homosexuals to serve openly? Really? When the gay translators were discharged, you didn’t hear people say that kicking out skilled, valuable desk workers was detrimental?
And aside from that, many people find it wrong for the government to discriminate based on something like this. It barely benefits the rest of the country at all on a practical level to allow a particular minority to serve (if they make up a small fraction of the force), but most people agree that it’s wrong to discriminate on that basis.
Is that true? Can you point me to a source that shows this? What do you make of the top-level military officers who endorse it?
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 3:43 PM
1 Cor 6:9-10:
Inanemergencydial on May 28, 2010 at 3:44 PM
tneloms on May 28, 2010 at 3:30 PM
I’m just tired of the whole diversity sensitivity hoop jumping.
The American people spend trillions to keep our military running and we in the military spend a good part of our time, complying with a bunch of idiotic social engineering nonsense, going to stupid re-education classes and we have separate standards according to whether Private Parts is a member of a priviledged victim class or whether Private Parts is a member of the evil white male class.
Why can’t we just meet the professional standards for the job that everyone has to meet and then get the job done? No excuses, whining, pulling the victim card, “celebrating” every ethnicity and sexual preference from here to Timbuktu or wasting time on Oprah like encounter sessions?
Why is that too much to ask? Why?
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 3:45 PM
Funny how I’m being condemned by some…in the name of Christianity…in direct violation of biblical teaching.
“Judge not…”
JetBoy on May 28, 2010 at 3:46 PM
crr6 on May 28, 2010 at 3:47 PM
Sometime the truth is harsh, it’s that way because it is true. When Jesus Christ called the religious leaders of his day “a brood of vipers” and asked them “who had warned them to flee the wrath to come” that was pretty harsh too.
There is however a world of difference between being harsh in your statements and being hateful and vicious. Like all of us, Jetboy has issues to work out, he has his own salvation to work out with fear and trembling, what we do not need to do is pile mountains of hate on him while he is trying to do that.
We can discuss DADT without throwing hate around bludgeoning those who do not agree with us attempting to beat them into submission as if somehow their sexual orientation demoted them to sub-human status.
We dont have to approve their sexual orientation or their position on DADT, but we cannot dehumanize them and expect to have any legitimacy or creditability in this debate.
doriangrey on May 28, 2010 at 3:48 PM
I find this incredible, but I think the firing of those 4 gay translators is the incident that kicked off this whole DADT sh*tstorm.
A handful of gay guys at desk jobs–that’s it.
Surely there are other soldiers without unnatural desires who can translate Arabic without us wrecking the rest of our armed forces!
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:48 PM
You can’t quote me alleging that. I will quote the Lord for you: “he who hates me loves death.” How does one hate God? Willfull persistent disobedience, despite his protestations to the contrary.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:52 PM
“Judge righteous judgement.”
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:53 PM
That they would rather get promoted then being forced to retire?
If you believe any officer is going to get promoted by not advocating the repeal of DADT, you are seriously delusional.
Nobody gives a damn about whether you’re a war fighter these days, it’s all politics.
McArthur and Patton wouldn’t have made 1st Lieutenant in this wussified environment.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 3:53 PM
The SA (Brownshirt) was a homosexual fraternity.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 3:55 PM
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:48 PM
But they were the source of dozens of hysterical Andrew Sullivan missives, they must have been vitally important.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 3:57 PM
News bulletin: You are not Jesus, especially with a screen name like “doriangrey.”
I was frank with JB, but I was not hateful and vicious.
You viciously attacked me, though, for being a “bad” Christian in a forum where Christianity is under constant attack–good work.
I did not pile “mountains of hate on him.”
Has anyone ever told you you’re a drama queen?
What is most troubling about JB is that because he’s admitted to being both a Catholic who attends Mass and a practicing homosexual at the same time, this indicates that he’s knowingly and willfully committing a sin.
This is much worse than someone who is completely ignorant of God’s laws.
I never dehumanized him.
Get over your self-righteousness, bud.
Jenfidel on May 28, 2010 at 3:58 PM
Gary Coleman died.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 4:00 PM
Gary Coleman died.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 4:00 PM
I loved him in those Burger King ads, cute kid.
NoDonkey on May 28, 2010 at 4:03 PM
In: Felching.
Look it up.
quikstrike98 on May 28, 2010 at 4:03 PM
I for one would love to see more of this from those who throw out scripture in regards to this:
Leviticus 19:18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Matthew 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 19:19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Matthew 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
JetBoy on May 28, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Here’s a new piece of scripture for you:
“Don’t make me walk into the head at 0330 to take a leak and have to be witness to two men f***ing each other up against a urinal.”
quikstrike98 on May 28, 2010 at 4:09 PM
2 Tim 3:16-17 “16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Lev 18:22-23 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Lev 20:13 “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”
1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals”
1 Tim 1:9-10 “realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers”
Rom 1:26-27 “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
Inanemergencydial on May 28, 2010 at 4:12 PM
You’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Lev. 18:22-24, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Romans 1:22, 24, 26, 27, Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves… For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Akzed on May 28, 2010 at 4:13 PM
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