Student suspended for bringing rosary beads to school

posted at 5:30 pm on May 23, 2010 by Cassy Fiano

A devout Catholic teenager was suspended for the crime of bringing his rosary beads to school. The school claimed it could be showing gang affiliation or endangering “the safety, health, morals or welfare of himself or others”.

The ACLU, shockingly, is seemingly silent on this.

The parents of a high school student from Rockland County are demanding answers after their ninth grader was suspended for wearing rosary beads to school.

He was suspended even though the school doesn’t even have a policy banning them. So did the principal go too far? Jason Laguna is a former altar boy and proud Catholic. He got his rosary beads as a gift, thinks they look cool and sometimes wears them under his shirt at school. But last Friday, right before dismissal, he pulled them out on his way out. He was given a one-day suspension from Fieldstone Secondary School. His mother calls the punishment extreme, considering the 14-year-old is a member of student government and, according to his last report card, “is a pleasure to have in class.” Laguna says she was told the school has an unwritten policy regarding beads because they could be used to show gang affiliation. The principal claims it was insubordination, saying Laguna’s actions, “endangered the safety, health, morals or welfare of himself or others.” Jason was supposed to stay home Friday, but late Thursday the district superintendent put that on hold pending further investigation. It may not be divine intervention, but his mother has contacted the American Civil Liberties Union as she continues to fight the suspension.

Yeah, this kid belongs to a gang all right. It’s called “the Catholic Church”, and those thugs are dangerous. They’ll shank you if you don’t watch your back!

In all seriousness, how could rosary beads, of all things, endanger the morals of others? The health and safety part will obviously get the typical school administration double-speak about how they could offend some poor non-Christian and cause violence (just like wearing the American flag on Cinco de Mayo!). But morals?! I really want to know where they got that one from. One would think that being a devout Catholic, and showing it by wearing rosary beads, would speak well to this boy’s morals. But not at this high school!

Also curious: how is a student supposed to follow an “unwritten” rule? It sounds to me like the typical religious discrimination found in schools today against Christianity, and the school just made up an excuse to stop this boy from expressing his faith. Amazing and ironic, isn’t it, that a student would be persecuted for his religion in a country founded by people seeking to escape religious persecution and discrimination.

I did some searching to see if the ACLU has taken up the case, but didn’t find anything. I don’t expect them to; after all, they don’t look out for the civil liberties of Christians.

Cross-posted from Cassy’s blog. Stop by for more original commentary, or follow her on Twitter!

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Comment pages: 1 2

I wear it as a protection.

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM

Those are circular objects made of plastic or glass strung on cheap string. Tell me what intrinsic power they have?

I wanted to believe that catholics used them as a memory device, not as some superstitious trinket like a talisman or dreamcatcher. Please tell me I’m wrong.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 9:22 PM

To call it merely a memory device IMHO is quite toyish. The Holy Rosary represents all the mysteries that the Blessed Virgin Mary suffered and glorified throughout the life of Jesus Christ. It is an instrument of prayer, the most powerful instrument against The Evil One when recited loudly or in total meditation. Some people pray just one mystery every day, some pray the 15 (or 20, if we count JP2′s Luminous Mysteries).

To accomplish this task any little thing or bigger will get in your way, in order for your prayers to not be completed. I like to go to sleep with any of mine that are blessed. I don’t have nightmares or weird dreams. I do feel The Holy Rosary protects me at night from evil spirits or entities that may wish me harm. I won’t go into details.

I feel safe also when I reach for it and grab the crucifix when I need that extra comfort and reassurance. No priest has ever looked down on me for wearing it, to the contrary it identifies me immediately as a Catholic while I meet them, “Greetings, Father!”, or “Bless me, Father!”

I know what you mean when we speak about instruments of protection. I know that path very well. That’s why I won’t elaborate on it.

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 10:02 PM

lexhamfox on May 23, 2010 at 9:21 PM

Let me see if I find a picture of my late JP2 while on retreat on vacation. I dunno if he was wearing it (he had casual clothes).

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 10:08 PM

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 10:02 PM

My sponsor gave me a rosary-but in RCIA we were told that they aren’t to be worn.
I do wear a St. Edith Stein medal.
Maybe the Rosary protocol differs from archdiocese to archdiocese.
As far as praying with my Rosary-I’m still learning.

annoyinglittletwerp on May 23, 2010 at 10:11 PM

QUESTION from Mark Westmoreland April 1, 2001 Good Day Bro. Ignatius:

I have read on the web site that Mr. John Miskel stated that it was an acepted pratice to wear the Rosary around the neck when not praying it. Can you help me find any church documents to support this? I have been Catholic for less that a year. I am a 38 year old male and for some reason I feel compelled to wear my Rosary but I have had other Catholics tell me it was wrong to wear it like a necklace and that I could only wear it on my belt like a priest might do. Can you help me please?

Thank you

Mark

——————————————————————————–

ANSWER by John-Paul Ignatius, OLSM on April 23, 2001 Dear Mr. Westmoreland:

It is correct. A person may wear a Rosary around one’s neck if they wish to, but there is no documents from the Church to say one way or another.

The Rosary is NOT regulated by the Church. It is a personal devotion and as such the Church make no rules about it other than the rules concerning blessed objects.

Since the Rosary is not regulated and is a personal devotion one can say the Rosary any way they want to, wear it around their neck, or whatever, as long as proper respect is due to a blessed object (most people have their Rosaries blessed).

It is perfectly fine to wear it around your neck. There is nothing disrespectful about it. We wear medals and postage-stamp scapulars around our neck all the time. The people telling you it is wrong are being scrupulous, though I am sure well meaning. Bro. Ignatius

http://www.therosaryproject.com/Wearable_Rosaries_C60.cfm

ambuldog on May 23, 2010 at 10:17 PM

I’m sure I’ve seen photos of monks and nuns with a rosary hanging from their waist. Maybe the admonition is just to not wear it as if it’s jewelry. If it’s made of simple wooden beads and string, as some are, it’s not going to make anybody think of jewelry.

RBMN on May 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM

http://tomsdomain.com/rosary/

Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.

I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.

The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.

It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.

Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.

I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.

The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.

You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.

All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

All who recite the rosary are my son, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.

Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.
===========================================================

St. John Vianney, patron of priests, was seldom seen without a rosary in his hand.

“The rosary is the scourge of the devil” — Pope Adrian VI

“The rosary is a treasure of graces” — Pope Paul V

Padra Pio the stigmatic priest said: “The Rosary is the weapon”
============================================================
Simple discussion as to if it’s appropriate to wear it:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=996

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 10:27 PM

Those are circular objects made of plastic or glass strung on cheap string. Tell me what intrinsic power they have?

I wanted to believe that catholics used them as a memory device, not as some superstitious trinket like a talisman or dreamcatcher. Please tell me I’m wrong.

They are based in Scripture; all the prayers and reflections which are meditated upon while praying the Rosary are found in the Bible. The Rosary prayer can be said with or without the Rosary beads, they are a symbol of the prayer and a way to help count the Hail Marys and the Mysteries.

But it is more than a “memory devise”; they – like all prayer – have the intrinsic value of bringing us closer to the mystery of Christ and the deepening of faith. That they are also blessed means they are more than mere trinkets.

englishqueen01 on May 23, 2010 at 10:45 PM

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 10:02 PM

To call it merely a memory device IMHO is quite toyish.

Odd word choice. I don’t gravitate toward jewelry when seeking protection.

The Holy Rosary represents all the mysteries that the Blessed Virgin Mary suffered and glorified throughout the life of Jesus Christ.

Irrelevant. Jesus Christ represents his own sufferings quite adequately. Again with the mystical, anti-biblical superstition…

It is an instrument of prayer, the most powerful instrument against The Evil One when recited loudly or in total meditation.

There are no secret chants, no esoteric knowledge necessary to pray to the Father. There is but one mediator, Christ. His sacrifice is enough. Or do you need plastic beads to guard you from suffering which even God promises in this world?

Some people pray just one mystery every day, some pray the 15 (or 20, if we count JP2’s Luminous Mysteries).

Mumbo. Jumbo.

To accomplish this task any little thing or bigger will get in your way, in order for your prayers to not be completed. I like to go to sleep with any of mine that are blessed. I don’t have nightmares or weird dreams. I do feel The Holy Rosary protects me at night from evil spirits or entities that may wish me harm. I won’t go into details.

Native Americans call those dream catchers.

I feel safe also when I reach for it and grab the crucifix when I need that extra comfort and reassurance.

That’s an object. God forbid if you lose it.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 10:47 PM

They are based in Scripture; all the prayers and reflections which are meditated upon while praying the Rosary are found in the Bible. The Rosary prayer can be said with or without the Rosary beads, they are a symbol of the prayer and a way to help count the Hail Marys and the Mysteries.
englishqueen01 on May 23, 2010 at 10:45 PM

That’s not in my bible. You follow a different creed.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 10:48 PM

I never thought to wear mine. I keep mine in my pocket. It’s been blessed so I carry it as a sacramental. It certainly is a source of comfort and strength for me.

It’s sad that some gangs are apparently trying to co-opt the Rosary as some kind of symbol. It’s even more sad that at least one school administration seems happy to help them do it.

JohnTant on May 23, 2010 at 11:01 PM

ProudPalinFan on May 23, 2010 at 10:27 PM

As a non-catholic, what you seem to be quoting there is that “the rosary” is a powerful thing.

“the rosary” is *not* the string of beads with a cross on it, correct? Isn’t “the rosary” what you are saying/praying?

Some of the other comments however seem to place too much of a talisman/supernatural value on an object rather than focusing on the prayer, on God, on Christ… ?

As a Christian, that spooks me a bit – I’m wholly uncomfortable with something that suggests holy power is somehow in an object.

Midas on May 23, 2010 at 11:02 PM

That’s not in my bible. You follow a different creed.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Yeah, “hail mary’s” and “JP2′s Luminous Mysteries” aren’t in my Bible either.

I know I’m a ‘solo scriptura’ guy, but the extra stuff that’s come along and been added in the last couple thousand years makes me nervous. Seems like Revelations said something about not trusting folks who came along after that point saying they had new stuff to add to the Bible.

Midas on May 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM

Those are circular spherical objects made of plastic…
Bee on May 23, 2010 at 9:22 PM

Sorry. Geometry FAIL. I couldn’t leave it.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 11:06 PM

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 10:48 PM

We get it- you don’t like Catholicism.
Don’t bash.
btw-Now that the Parish choir season has ended for the summer I’ll be singing with my former denomination-the Nazarenes- until the fall.
They’re VERY protestant and VERY conservative yet when I brought my Rosary into the sanctuary on the National Day of Prayer they were fine with it.
They know that when it all comes down to the nuts and bolts-conservative Catholics and conservative Protestants pray to the same Savior.

annoyinglittletwerp on May 23, 2010 at 11:08 PM

.
.
“the rosary” is *not* the string of beads with a cross on it, correct? Isn’t “the rosary” what you are saying/praying?

I’m wholly uncomfortable with something that suggests holy power is somehow in an object.

Midas on May 23
.
.

Well put.

The physical rosary is something to keep the hands busy while praying the cycle, which is ‘the Rosary.’ This traces to Catholic recognition of the existence in a human being of different layers / depths of contemplation, as well as the importance of your ‘outside’ matching your ‘inside.’ In other words, the presence of physical symbols encourages commitment on multiple levels of consciousness, including the shallower levels that are easily distracted.

Joe.
.

wkgdyw on May 23, 2010 at 11:44 PM

That’s not in my bible. You follow a different creed.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Yeah, “hail mary’s” and “JP2’s Luminous Mysteries” aren’t in my Bible either.

Midas on May 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM

Is you Bible missing the Book of Luke?

The first three stanzas of the “Hail Mary” come from Luke 1:28. From Confraternity of Christian Doctrine Text, dated 1953. It reads: And when the angel had come to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women.”

Tommy_G on May 23, 2010 at 11:59 PM

wkgdyw on May 23, 2010 at 11:44 PM

Thank you. As an Anglican, I discovered that using beads helps me to concentrate as I pray. Somehow it helps me to remember what I need to pray for too.

sloopy on May 24, 2010 at 12:05 AM

You follow a different creed.

Bee on May 23, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Huh. I looked in a Catholic missalette not too long ago; same Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds that everyone else uses. You use something else?

sloopy on May 24, 2010 at 12:10 AM

Yeah, “hail mary’s” and “JP2’s Luminous Mysteries” aren’t in my Bible either.

I know I’m a ’solo scriptura’ guy, but the extra stuff that’s come along and been added in the last couple thousand years makes me nervous. Seems like Revelations said something about not trusting folks who came along after that point saying they had new stuff to add to the Bible.

Midas on May 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM

If the Hail Mary is not not your Bible then either you have a severely abridged Bible or you don’t read it very closely. The Hail Mary comes quite obviously from St. Gabriel’s salutation to Mary at the Annunciation and St. Elizabeth’s acclamation at the Visitation. And I assure you
the Luminous Mysteries:
1.) The Baptism of Jesus
2.) Jesus’s Self Manifestation at Cana
3.) The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
4.) The Transfiguration
5.) The Institution of the Holy Eucharist

are all found quite easily in the Gospels. I invite anyone to honestly try and pray the holy rosary each day for one month. You will either abandon the rosary or abandon your sin. The two cannot exist together. For those of you who are honestly interested in learning about the rosary, then I highly recommend the very little and easy book “The Secret of the Rosary” by St. Louis De Montfort. It’s an amazing book.

Goldenavatar on May 24, 2010 at 12:17 AM

The first three stanzas of the “Hail Mary” come from Luke 1:28. From Confraternity of Christian Doctrine Text, dated 1953. It reads: And when the angel had come to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women.”

Tommy_G on May 23, 2010 at 11:59 PM

Cool. And after the first three stanzas? I’m not accusing, I’m asking – your comment leads one to believe that after the first three stanzas, the “Hail Mary” is perhaps not from the book of Luke?

And why do you feel the need to reference a 1953 tome to quote something that’s ostensibly (at least in part) from Luke?

And when I say these things are not in my Bible, I should of course be more clear; I’m perhaps missing the instruction to ‘worship’ Mary (again, am confused by the focus on Mary at all – to the extent that it seems to distract from focus upon God and Christ – when you say ‘the rosary’, is the ‘hail mary’ portion first, before you get around to ‘the mysteries’? If so, why?).

And yes, while my Bible does not have mention of “JP2′s Luminous Mysteries” (thank you for itemizing them), those events are certainly in my Bible. Do those events have more significant meaning by associating JP2 or his writings/pronouncements to them?

Again, it’s the 1953 writings, the JP2 references, etc – it seems to me that one need only perhaps point to Luke or other biblical references as sufficient sources?

Midas on May 24, 2010 at 12:31 AM

Midas on May 24, 2010 at 12:31 AM

I’ll try to get these in the order asked. 1953 reference is not from a tome. It’s the version of the Bible, it came from. i.e it’s worded a little differently in the King James Version.

Mary is not worshiped, she is venerated (honored), they are not the same thing.

Tommy_G on May 24, 2010 at 12:41 AM

Dedalus, you are very ill-informed about the early Church so read what the early Christian writers had to say before you call Roman Catholics the AntiChrist… and there were two Popes, one for the Eastern Orthodox Church and one for the Western Church established in Rome…

from an ardent Roman Catholic

chai on May 23, 2010 at 9:24 PM

You mistake my point. I was referring to the historical views of Catholicism by early American Puritans like Increase Mather.

dedalus on May 24, 2010 at 2:43 AM

I’m wholly uncomfortable with something that suggests holy power is somehow in an object.

Midas on May 23

You expressed this more graciously than I. :) Thank you.

The physical rosary is something to keep the hands busy while praying the cycle, which is ‘the Rosary.’ This traces to Catholic recognition of the existence in a human being of different layers / depths of contemplation

wkgdyw on May 23, 2010 at 11:44 PM

I appreciate this. This is what I had read and Catholic friends had explained prior. I, too, get profoundly uncomfortable hearing about inanimate objects having intrinsic powers.

sloopy on May 24, 2010 at 12:10 AM

Literalist! :) Try system of belief.

Clearly, I’m not Catholic. I fully understand that Catholics have additional sources of revelation, namely sacred tradition and ecclesiastical interpretation. I do not.

We get it- you don’t like Catholicism.
Don’t bash.

They know that when it all comes down to the nuts and bolts-conservative Catholics and conservative Protestants pray to the same Savior.

annoyinglittletwerp on May 23, 2010 at 11:08 PM

Not bashing and I apologize if my quick responses indicated that. (Other things were going on around here requiring my attention and I wanted to get that comment out.) I have no problem with Catholics praying/believing/doing what they want. I have a definite problem with Catholic claims of authority (or prescriptive interpretation of scripture)over all Christendom when it is expressly distinct from Reformed protestant doctrine (any careful study will illuminate this). I stepped in when someone indicated some supernatural power resided in the actual beads to protect and it digressed from there.

Luke 1:28.

Tommy_G on May 23, 2010 at 11:59 PM

Quite a bit of extrapolation from one small verse, in my humble protestant opinion. :) I defer to:

Midas on May 24, 2010 at 12:31 AM

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 3:59 AM

Remember this story the next time someone cries crocodile tears about the plight of poor schoolteachers and the lack of funding.

leereyno on May 24, 2010 at 4:31 AM

Can’t have Rosary Bead. Nope. Not allowed. Absolutely Forbidden.

But if the kid would have had a Koran, well, that’s different……..

olesparkie on May 24, 2010 at 7:53 AM

Anti-
Christian
Litigation
Unit

ZK on May 24, 2010 at 7:56 AM

It sounds to me like the typical religious discrimination found in schools today against Christianity, and the school just made up an excuse to stop this boy from expressing his faith.

Please go substitute teach in a predominately hispanic high school and you will see that it is used as a gang marker. Just like the blue or red bandanas aren’t being worn out the back pocket to help with a runny nose.

snoopicus on May 24, 2010 at 8:55 AM

And when I say these things are not in my Bible, I should of course be more clear; I’m perhaps missing the instruction to ‘worship’ Mary (again, am confused by the focus on Mary at all – to the extent that it seems to distract from focus upon God and Christ – when you say ‘the rosary’, is the ‘hail mary’ portion first, before you get around to ‘the mysteries’? If so, why?).

Midas on May 24, 2010 at 12:31 AM

Midas, the point of the Hail Mary is to ask Mary to pray on your behalf, not to “worship” Mary directly. At the end of the Rosary there is another prayer (the Hail Holy Queen) that asks this again and more explicitly.

As for the sequence, you start with the Creed. You recite the Hail Mary ten times as you meditate upon each of the five mysteries for that day…one set of ten for each mystery.

JohnTant on May 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM

Please go substitute teach in a predominately hispanic high school and you will see that it is used as a gang marker. Just like the blue or red bandanas aren’t being worn out the back pocket to help with a runny nose.

snoopicus on May 24, 2010 at 8:55 AM

Yeah, those evil Catholic gangs are everywhere. You have to be careful of those thugs with Rosaries around their necks, they might stop you and say “God bless you”

oh, the horror.

exsanguine on May 24, 2010 at 9:07 AM

One more thing:

Praying the rosary is not a “technique” like transcendental meditation or whatever. It’s an act. Like every other human act, this act changes you.

So the question is, is the act part of the saving action of God? Does it make you more perfect, or less perfect?

I think I’ll side with the saints over the TV evangelists on this one: It’s part of God’s saving action, and it thereby perfects you.

jeff_from_mpls on May 24, 2010 at 9:07 AM

Yeah, those evil Catholic gangs are everywhere. You have to be careful of those thugs with Rosaries around their necks, they might stop you and say “God bless you”

oh, the horror.

exsanguine on May 24, 2010 at 9:07 AM

Actually, I see a pattern here. The lowest of vermin can adopt a Catholic practice, deface it and soil it, then point the finger with glee at how awful the Church is.

If you think it over, you’ll see that technique is at the root of the pederast-priest scandal.

jeff_from_mpls on May 24, 2010 at 9:11 AM

Mary isn’t worshipped, she is adored as the mother of God. The “Hail Mary” portion of the prayer is found in scripture, so if you reject that you also reject scripture. The second part of the Hail Mary is a prayer for prayer, a request that Mary, who as the mother of Jesus is in heaven, can pray to her son for his mediation. The prayers of the rosary are merely aids in the meditation of the mysteries of Jesus’ life. Saying the rosary is an exercise in the contemplative prayer of Jesus.

Haunches on May 24, 2010 at 9:12 AM

I find the hostility to Mary quite interesting. If one does indeed worship Christ, why constantly denigrate His mother. Do you not believe Christ is human?

Haunches on May 24, 2010 at 9:17 AM

the rule of thumb for wearing the rosary is you can wear it if you pray it.

lobosan5 on May 24, 2010 at 10:28 AM

I find the hostility to Mary quite interesting. If one does indeed worship Christ, why constantly denigrate His mother.
Haunches on May 24, 2010 at 9:17 AM

Hyperbole, much? No one is either hostile nor denigrating her. We simply renounce any suggestion that she can intercede for us as a mere human. Christ is the sole mediator between us and the Father. We have no other barrier between us and the throne of grace and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we cannot. Any belief otherwise, to the protestant, is tantamount to idolatry/blasphemy.

We are free to hold this belief and defend it as you are yours. Rome, despite its claims, does not preside over the church universal, according to protestant doctrine. Were you not aware that we believed this? I’m surprised by your…surprise. :)

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 10:41 AM

If one doesn’t think Mary can pray on one’s behalf then I don’t see how one can believe in the communion of saints.

JohnTant on May 24, 2010 at 11:08 AM

As I recall, he was technically in violation of a policy regarding the wearing of colored beads to school, as they’re apparently used by some to signify gang affiliation. And, strangely, his rosary beads appear to be of a lavender/purple color from the glimpses I saw of them on Fox last week. I’m sure they in fact had nothing to do with gang membership, but it’s a bit of a stretch to claim the issue came about because they were rosary beads. It came about because they were colored, no matter what their purpose. A mess, to be sure, and a good lesson in unintended consequences, but not necessarily the secularist conspiracy some might prefer.

Incidentally, it’s been a long while since I attended Catholic church, but aren’t rosary beads traditionally black anyway?

Blacklake on May 24, 2010 at 11:38 AM

Mary is not a “barrier”. If we appreciate scripture then we see what she tells us in Luke 1:

46 And Mary said: My soul does magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he has regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

See http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk001.htm

As a practical matter, any faithful Catholic knows that he can and should have a deeply personal relationship with Christ. Honoring His mother does not detract from this, it adds to it. One of Christ’s final admonitions to us was “Woman, behold your son… Son, behold your mother”. We understand that he was not just speaking to John but to all of us, and to Mary, about the special relationship established by God between His mother and all of us. To think that this is somehow a barrier to our love of God and His Son is misguided.

PeteT1 on May 24, 2010 at 11:41 AM

If one doesn’t think Mary can pray on one’s behalf then I don’t see how one can believe in the communion of saints.

JohnTant on May 24, 2010 at 11:08 AM

Where in 1 Cor. 12 (where the doctrine of communion of “saints” originates) does Paul talk about the dead interceding for the living or Mary herself working on behalf of the living?

Appealing to the dead for help reminds me of jr. high lock-in seances. *shudders*

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 11:52 AM

Hmmmm.

@ Bee

I find it vastly amusing when some people argue scripture with those that are clearly more versed in it.

But please, do continue digging that hole.

memomachine on May 24, 2010 at 12:00 PM

memomachine on May 24, 2010 at 12:00 PM

I find your hole-analogy vastly amusing. Do you have a specific criticism or is this a case of authoritarian arrogance? I’ve merely been stating the opposing protestant interpretation of scripture. Is this not allowed?

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 12:31 PM

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 12:31 PM

The Catholics didn’t come here attacking Protestantism, you came here slamming their practices and then you said you’re not bashing. When someone called you on your precise wording you called them a literalist. You claimed they extrapolate a lot from Luke (which you appear not to be familiar with) and when they told you that one part is asking for intercession you said that mere humans can’t intercede for anyone. I’ve been a protestant many, many years and have never heard that humans can’t intercede (PRAY) for each other. But I guess you’re the pope of the dictionary here.

I don’t know what particular brand of protestant you are but I hope it’s not contagious.

Eren on May 24, 2010 at 12:57 PM

The Catholics didn’t come here attacking Protestantism, you came here slamming their practices and then you said you’re not bashing. When someone called you on your precise wording you called them a literalist. You claimed they extrapolate a lot from Luke (which you appear not to be familiar with) and when they told you that one part is asking for intercession you said that mere humans can’t intercede for anyone. I’ve been a protestant many, many years and have never heard that humans can’t intercede (PRAY) for each other. But I guess you’re the pope of the dictionary here.

I don’t know what particular brand of protestant you are but I hope it’s not contagious.

Eren on May 24, 2010 at 12:57 PM

Read my comments. I began talking about this possibly being a case of discrimination but that the wearing of rosary beads has been linked to gangs, as have plenty of other commenters here. When one person referenced wearing them as a source of protection, I took issue. It devolved from there.

I never, ever said we (THE LIVING) couldn’t intercede for other LIVING saints. I take issue 1. with the referring of only particular individuals as saints due to works alone. We are all saints who are in Christ. 2. Appealing to the DEAD (most specifically Mary) to intercede for other believers.

As a fellow protestant, it’s curious to me that you would take issue with these basic distinction between the two doctrinal positions. Furthermore, this was a conversation on a public message board. If you took this as an attack, I don’t know how to help you.

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 1:11 PM

never, ever said we (THE LIVING) couldn’t intercede for other LIVING saints

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 1:11 PM

Clarification: Intercede in prayer for other living individuals. Apologies.

Bee on May 24, 2010 at 1:14 PM

never, ever said we (THE LIVING) couldn’t intercede for other LIVING saints.

You never said that at all. What you said was

We simply renounce any suggestion that she can intercede for us as a mere human.

But at any rate, Jesus said that whoever believed in Him would never die. Maybe you have some special interpretation for that. You do seem to think your interpretations are infallible.

Shay on May 24, 2010 at 2:01 PM

Hyperbole, much? No one is either hostile nor denigrating her. We simply renounce any suggestion that she can intercede for us as a mere human. Christ is the sole mediator between us and the Father. We have no other barrier between us and the throne of grace and the Holy

Spirit intercedes for us when we cannot. Any belief otherwise, to the protestant, is tantamount to idolatry/blasphemy.

We are free to hold this belief and defend it as you are yours. Rome, despite its claims, does not preside over the church universal, according to protestant doctrine. Were you not aware that we believed this? I’m surprised by your…surprise. :)

I’m quite aware of what you believe as I was raised a protestant and left it when it became to liberal and wishy-washy for me. I was in a panic to get out when pro-abortion, gay marriage, and gay ordination became the sudden rage.

It seems only logical to me that Mary is in heaven and can hear our prayers through the intercession of her son. She is no longer a “mere human” but a human in heaven. In fact, I believe that mere humans can intercede through prayer.

Appealing to the dead for help reminds me of jr. high lock-in seances. *shudders*

And yet you insist you aren’t bashing Mary? You think that Mary, the mother of God, is wandering around as a lost soul looking for a Ouiji board? Thankfully, my Catholic Jesus is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent and wouldn’t leave his mother to the realm of zombies and ghosts. In fact, because he is all love and all good and is one with the father, he holds his mother in a special place because of her utter obedience to the Holy Spirit. I doubt he looks kindly on those who diminish her.

Haunches on May 24, 2010 at 2:40 PM

You continue to choose your words poorly, Bee. I didn’t ask you for help, why would I ask the help of someone who confuses anti-Catholic bigotry with Christianity? No thank you.

Eren on May 24, 2010 at 4:21 PM

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