Provocation isn’t the highest form of free speech
posted at 4:30 pm on May 16, 2010 by J.E. Dyer
It isn’t even necessarily the most extreme. Extreme, like provocative, is in the eye of the beholder. But one thing the video of the attack on Lars Vilks in Sweden makes clear is that being shocking and offensive isn’t something one’s fellow men will line up to defend with their lives and sacred honor.
There’s no question the Vilks film being aired in the video clip is provocative. I have no trouble seeing why Muslims would find it offensive. Of course they shouldn’t get away with shutting down the film by turning into a pack of baying hyenas. But neither should we be surprised that this particular manifestation of free speech got no vigorous defense from the crowd.
As Allahpundit points out, most of the crowd is excruciatingly passive as the Muslims keep the Donnybrook expanding by the minute. It actually comes off like something from a Monty Python short to me: if you focus on the obviously Swedish Swedes in the front row during the whole event, their disengagement becomes downright hilarious.
But why would we expect anything different? For a long time now – at least three to four decades – the Western-modernist justification for free speech has been that we aren’t supposed to care about anything so much that we want to shut down either opposition, disrespect, or subversion. We aren’t supposed to have any absolutes that motivate us to effective defense at the point of confrontation.
When confrontation does erupt, it’s very often over subversive or provocative expression: images or words juxtaposed deliberately to shock or incite. The thing about this form of expression is that people instinctively know there is nothing noble about it. It isn’t intended to improve, instruct, ennoble, or empower. It doesn’t make the heart or mind feel clean, positive, compassionate, generous, or hopeful. Humans aren’t wired to be courageous and self-sacrificing in defending their right to be either its authors or its witnesses. Our most likely responses are uncomfortable laughter, cynicism, and a sense of mental unsavoriness. If the American Revolution had been about the right to depict George III as a pederast surrounded by his catamites – well, it couldn’t have been, is the point. No one would have fought for that.
Provocative speech gets, rather, a free ride on the forms of expression it is worth fighting for. The freedom to not believe in Mohammed as God’s prophet is at the top of that list. That freedom covers everyone on earth – Christians, Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Confucianists, Baha’is, animists – who does not accept the dictates of Islam. The freedom to not have another’s conception of God forced on us – to not be forced to do obeisance or pay a penalty – is a freedom worth fighting for. So is the freedom, in the realms of philosophy and science, to differ with tradition, majority views, and “consensus.” The freedom of women to participate fully in public life, on a footing of equality as human beings, is worth fighting for. The freedom of people of different races and religious and ethnic backgrounds to do the same is worth fighting for.
I don’t know what the Swedes attending the Vilks presentation would have been willing to fight back over, but it doesn’t surprise me that no one cared to make a provocative video juxtaposing Mohammed with gay images his casus belli. We need to have this very clear in our Western minds as our troubled world lurches forward. The right to offend others is something that gets a pass because of the good that comes from the better, higher, more important right to make our own philosophical decisions. The right to be deliberately offensive is a parasite, not a first principle.
Defending freedom of speech and thought is more likely to occur if Muslims challenge what really matters to us. I’m as concerned as others that it might not occur even then, but I don’t view the Vilks video as a true test of Western mettle. There have been truer tests in recent years, as when French politicians take care to obtain permission before entering majority Muslim areas of large cities, and the British parliament and courts knuckle under to de facto shari’a rule in parts of England herself. Canada’s law(s) against anyone ever having to be offended by anything said by anyone – presumably excluding white males of European descent, who can be offended at will – are certainly an example of a failed test, if the fact that Mark Steyn’s comments on Islamism have run afoul of them is anything to go by.
So there is certainly reason to be concerned. But the fact that people sat passively while howling Muslims shut down a showing of the Vilks video isn’t an indictment of the West’s moral courage. Provocative videos with subversive sexual overtones – expressions that some people know will offend and incite others – are not the definition of what is “Western.” They are merely what we tolerate, as the detritus – and yes, I mean the detritus; there is nothing high or noble about lampooning someone else’s religion – of the worthwhile, worth-defending attributes that do define us.
Cross-posted at The Optimistic Conservative.
This post was promoted from GreenRoom to HotAir.com.
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Cowardice isn’t the lowest form of life.
profitsbeard on May 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
10,000 Swedes ran through the weeds,
chased by one Norwegian.
katy the mean old lady on May 16, 2010 at 4:37 PM
But you do have trouble seeing that Muslims have a religious obligation to kill those that offend Islam.
Stop seeing this debate in terms of personal offense to one’s religion. It has nothing to do with Muslims personal problems with Islam being offended. Islam demands that Muslims kill those that offend Islam. It’s nothing personal.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 4:40 PM
That is a text book red herring which pretty much renders the whole preachy speech null and void. In fact, it should get some kind of Grand Prize in that category.
Compounding Red Herring as they are not keeping their poor little “hurt feelings” at all under control, not here and not in what happened soon afterward, and not in what has happened all over the place, is happening all over the place, and will continue to happen all over the place.
The people sitting passively get a Good Solid B Plus as do you!
Voltaire weeps. Mankind weeps. Womankind weeps even more.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 4:42 PM
It’s not about their “hurt feelings.” It’s about their religious obligation to kill those that offend Islam. “Feelings” have nothing to do with it.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 4:46 PM
There was a reason, of course, why I put “hurt feelings” in quotes.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 4:50 PM
You’ve got to be kidding me…am I understanding the point of this post correctly? The reasons that the Swedes remained passive was because the film itself was not worth defending as free speech?
Seriously…did I read this wrong?
WaltzingMtilda on May 16, 2010 at 4:51 PM
What were such good Muslims doing attending a show they knew would offend the prophet? It appears to me that they were looking for a reason to throw off restraint.
chemman on May 16, 2010 at 4:53 PM
I think, perhaps, the most important issue here is the author’s blatant use of the Red Herring.
Red Herring: Something designed to divert attention away from the main issue.
The name of this fallacy comes from the sport of fox hunting in which a dried, smoked herring, which is red in color, is dragged across the trail of the fox to throw the hounds off the scent. Thus, a “red herring” argument is one which distracts the audience from the issue in question through the introduction of some irrelevancy. This frequently occurs during debates when there is an at least implicit topic, yet it is easy to lose track of it. By extension, it applies to any argument in which the premisses are logically irrelevant to the conclusion.
This fallacy is often known by the Latin name “ignoratio elenchi”, or “ignorance of refutation”.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 4:55 PM
Good Article. AP didnt get the message because of the picture posted for this article.
PrezHussein on May 16, 2010 at 4:55 PM
I agree with J.E. Dyer…..
In Western culture we let the Christian faith get pissed on and no one is supposed to blink eye. Guess what? Other people in other countries actually care about their faith. Muslims care about our faith. Just because Western culture lies down and takes the abuse, doesn’t mean people of other faiths should automatically roll over and shut up.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 4:56 PM
I believe you read it right.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 4:56 PM
All warfare is based on deception. Hey, what’s that behind you?
- Sun Tzu’s Nephew
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 4:58 PM
So you believe that Christians should throw off self-control anytime their faith is insulted?
chemman on May 16, 2010 at 4:59 PM
I, too, have no idea what Dyer’s point is.
Yitzchokm on May 16, 2010 at 5:01 PM
While I don’t condone violence and assault….I wouldn’t mind if Christians showed more righteous anger when our faith being spit on.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Excellent.
Note to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, whomever: Anytime someone insults your religion, just go ahead and assault them, threaten their lives, and kill them. Since they’re being provocative and all.
Also for people who find their political beliefs as their religion, just go ahead and assault those who insult you. Even if you’re a Nazi or a communist or a KKK member or a Hamas member or whatever.
This post is idiotic and childish.
mjk on May 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM
They may have thought they were going to a barmitzfa. They were no doubt going there to pay there respects. One can easily see how a confusion like that could happen. It was just all a big unfortunate and innocent misunderstanding. Nothing to see.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 5:03 PM
That’s not what J.E. Dyer was saying at all. Re-read it please.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 5:04 PM
There is nothing high or noble about it. There is very much high and noble about a society that allows it without violence.
Or did I miss the mass beatings over Piss Christ, or the mass riots over showing The Thorn Birds during Holy Week? Or the burning down of Paramount studios for the past 30 years of movies mocking and denegrating the Catholic Church? (you could substitute nearly any studio for Paramount)
The nobility lies in protecting free speech even if you disagree wholeheartedly and are disgusted by it. Defending free speech is easy if you approve of the message.
And who stands by and lets a man get pummelled by a crowd no matter what he plays on a film projector?
DrAllecon on May 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM
Muslims will always look for offense to feed off of. Whether it is “valid” or not is not the point. They seek out any and every excuse to present violent possibilities for anything/anyone critical of their supremacist doctrine and their indefensible social norms.
This piece deserves one of those courageous restraint medals. We are at war, the god d*mnest war that has ever been. I’ll listen to Sun Tzu for advice on what to do with a “sensitive” enemy, pull his tail at every opportunity and make him do something stupid.
BL@KBIRD on May 16, 2010 at 5:08 PM
Muslims attended this to take the opportunity to fulfill their religious obligations.
They are not throwing off “self-control” or “restraint”; it is their religious obligation to kill those that offend Islam. Lack of “self-control” has nothing to do with it.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 5:08 PM
No there is nothing noble about spitting on other people’s faiths just to be “provocative.”
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 5:08 PM
Christianity does not demand that Christians kill those that insult Christianity. “Righteous anger” is not what is at issue here. It looks like Muslims are angry, but it is not the anger of “personal offense” that they are expressing. It is their religious obligation.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 5:11 PM
That’s exactly what I said. But there is something noble about letting people be complete a-holes without kicking the snot out of them.
There would have been plenty of nobility in utilizing free speech right back and saying, “Hey, that video is total crap, and you sir are an a-hole, but I’m not going to kill you over it because you have the right to be a total a-hole.”
Or should we start regularly sending death threats to Bill Mahr?
DrAllecon on May 16, 2010 at 5:11 PM
Allah hates you this I know
For the Koran tells me so
Infidels Christians and Jews we humble with aplomb
They are weak but we are strong
Yes Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you!
The Koran tells me so.
Allah hates you, you will submit
Bend your knees or we will again you hit
Say the salat, make the Swede bow his head
Eat falafel, go to bed
Yes, Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you! Yes, Allah hates you!
The Koran tells me so.
محمد اغتصاب الفتيات الصغيرات. وكان والده بقرة. كانت والدته خنزير. أحمدي نجاد الماعز الاغتصاب
Aleph on May 16, 2010 at 5:11 PM
Viciously kicking the butts off of violent hate-filled murderous foreign thugs is always the highest form of free speech.
If the idiot poster had bothered to watch the entire video, a young blond Swedish girl stood up in the front and said that this was a matter of free speech,and ‘Can’t you understand?” but the violent male mob of Muslims started immediarely running towards her, threatening her and the police had to surround that young girl and protect her.
TexasJew on May 16, 2010 at 5:13 PM
Liberals show great passion for free speech when it agrees with them, but disagree and they respond with name-calling like spoiled brats. Check the One when there is ANY sign of disagreement with his obvious lies. His body language changes immediately like a conditioned response to attack. Very unnerving for so much power to be in the hands of someone so shallow.
volsense on May 16, 2010 at 5:14 PM
We AoSHQ morons always wonder just where does HA find so many stupid commenters.
Is there an audition?
TexasJew on May 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM
Islam isn’t a “faith”, it is a vile and dangerous to humanity abomination. That is what it is. There is no logical sense in shutting the eyes of your mind and pretending otherwise.
As I said upstream this article is a Red Herring anyway. Don’t be misdirected so easily.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 5:16 PM
I’m a Christian….I know Christianity doesn’t demand to kill those who insult Jesus. Also, they looked pretty angry to me. It seems to me they take their religion personally. It was an offense to their religion and to them personally.
Just a side thought:
If someone said a racist remark and he got beat up….no one would surprised right?
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 5:18 PM
To mjk -
Y’know those “COEXIST” bumper stickers? Like this? (http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagelarge/Coexist-Bumper-Sticker-(7167).jpg)
Here’s the thing – to actually COEXIST means either the offended group eats the s**t sandwich (1) or the offended group can overreact with violence and protests until the general public stop trying to feed them s**t sandwiches. Clearly the Islamists have chosen the second path.
The problem with the second path is where it leads – to two distinct sub-cultures sharing a locale but with different goals must inevitably end in conflict.
Mew
(1) Christians have been eating s**t for a while now – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ was 1987.. and was only new in the publicity it received – mostly because it was gov’t funded
acat on May 16, 2010 at 5:18 PM
In addition to being a Red Herring this “article” basically attacks and blames the victims. It has pretty much got it all, I suppose. Good Solid B Plus.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 5:23 PM
Neat.
Inanemergencydial on May 16, 2010 at 5:23 PM
Let me say this, and I don’r care about being popular, whatever. The first thing you got to do is to study and to understand who you’re up against. And you must realize that this is not a religion you are fighting against, you are fighting against a theo-political belief system and construct. You’re fighting something that’s been doing this thing since 622 AD, the 7th century,1388 years.
You want to dig up Charles Martel and ask him why he was fighting the Muslim army at the Battle of Tours in 732? You want to ask the Venetian fleet at La Ponto, why they were fighting a Muslim fleet in 1571? You want to ask the Germanic and Austrian knights why they were fighting at the Gate of Vienna in 1683? You want to ask people what happened at Constantinople and why today it’s called Istanbul because they lost that fight in 1453?
You need to get into the Koran, you need to understand their precepts, you need to read the Sura, you need to read the hadiths, and then you can really understand that it’s not a perversion, they are doing exactly what this book says. I want to close by saying this, and I think that we’ve said this all through this morning so far.
Until you get principled leadership in the United States of America that is willing to say that, we will continue to chase our tail, because we will never clearly define who this enemy is, and define, their goals and objectives, which is on any jihadists website, and then come up with the right and proper goals and objectives, to not only secure our republic, but to secure Western civilization.
- Colonel Allen West
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 5:25 PM
I HATE RED TELEPHONES!
Anyone who draws, makes, buys or displays a red telephone, I will kill.
Part One is tolerable silliness.
Part Two needs to be expunged from Civilization.
Criticizing homicidal extremism is the highest form of free speech.
Everything else hinges on this instinct for exposing mortal threats.
You prod the dangerously unstable in order to re-balance them into an asylum.
Or dirt nap, if they kill.
profitsbeard on May 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM
The real question is have the Supreme Courts rulings on fighting words been too liberal. If someone made a gay porn film about your favorite ancestor and displayed it in public what should a conservative court rule.
PrezHussein on May 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM
Yes, it looks like anger. Running a plane into a building looks like anger, too. You would have to be very “angry” to do such a thing, right? But I assure you, running a plane into a building is not an act of anger; it is an act of religious conviction.
You’re right, making a racist remark and getting beat up for it would be an example of personal anger turing into violence. But, you’re still missing the point as this is something else entirely.
It is the religious obligation of Muslims to kill those that offend Islam. It is part of their faith.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM
Red herrings for all?
Inanemergencydial on May 16, 2010 at 5:31 PM
lol
I am glad you post here! VinyFox is really good, too.
Bizarro No. 1 on May 16, 2010 at 5:34 PM
Um, yeah. The Muslims in the Lars Vilks video didn’t fly planes to any building.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 5:35 PM
“The Battle of Tours followed 23 years of Umayyad conquests in Europe which had begun with the invasion of the Visigothic Christian Kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula in 711. These were followed by military expeditions into the Frankish territories of Gaul, former provinces of the Roman Empire. Umayyad military campaigns had reached northward into Aquitaine and Burgundy, including a major engagement at Bordeaux and a raid on Autun. Charles Martel’s victory is widely believed to have stopped the northward advance of Umayyad forces from the Iberian peninsula, and to have preserved Christianity in Europe during a period when Muslim rule was overrunning the remains of the old Roman and Persian Empires.
A Muslim France? Historically, it nearly happened. But as a result of Martel’s fierce opposition, which ended Muslim advances.
Many historians believe that a failure by Martel at Tours could have been a disaster, destroying what would become Western civilization after the Renaissance. Certainly all historians agree that no power would have remained in Europe able to halt Islamic expansion had the Franks failed.”
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 5:36 PM
Ernesto?
BL@KBIRD on May 16, 2010 at 5:40 PM
Look, I know this is difficult for you to understand. You are doing your best to “put yourself in the shoes” of Muslims who are “offended” by pictures of Mohammed. (Any drawing of Mohammed is punishable by death, even a “flattering” one, but I digress.)
Let me help you understand: If there was an extremely offensive video about Jesus, you would be offended, yes? Maybe you would even “feel” angry. Perhaps you would even shout at the film maker. But Jesus has specifically told you to not be violent towards such offensiveness. He has asked you to forgive. Perhaps His words would help calm you down and help you realize that you should not be violent against those who “know not what they do.”
Islam, on the other hand, specifically demands that you kill that filmmaker. Muslims that are not killing cartoonists and filmmakers of work offensive to Islam are missing out on a one way ticket to heaven.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 5:46 PM
The most pathetic thing about your comments and those of the other ‘observers’ of the film is this.
The spectators “The Swedes” were all older people, While the hostile apes were all younger.
Further why is there the silly asinine idea that anyone should get in a fight to show a movie?
When was the last time, Oh Brave One, that you got in a fight with a mob for Anything?
It is so hard to stay loyal to the Right when cowards such as your self and allahpundit deliberately try to tell us what we are seeing.
We need an all out assault on Islam and theocracy period. As long as there are vested interests in mollifying unelected Holy Men to declare what is right and wrong we will suffer this nonsense.
Observation on May 16, 2010 at 5:48 PM
13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!”
17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 5:51 PM
I’ve read this article 4 times and I’m still confused.
I agree with you. Provocative speech will always have a lower percentage of people willing to vigorously defend it. It’s a fact of life that people will be less likely to vigorously defend speech that either makes them uncomfortable were it speech that they view as overtly obnoxious and confrontational.
Maybe I’m nitpicking, but the syntax of the sentence is completely messed up. I’m guessing the point of the sentence was to say there are other free speech issues that are more important than the defense of provocative speech.
Actually, the right to be deliberately offensive is much more important than you give it credit. The defense of provocative speech is essentially the outermost barricade protecting freedom of speech. Essentially, it keeps a safe distance between most speech and the edge of legal protection. If provocative speech is no longer sheltered under protection by law, that distance is decreased. Thus, less provocative speech becomes the barricade. This could start a dangerous cycle.
So, again, what’s the point? Should provocative speech no longer be defended anymore?
nomorespin on May 16, 2010 at 5:52 PM
Would you have wanted to be that young girl who just asked “Can’t you understand?” (about free speech) had the police not been there? We will never know what the muslim gang would have done to her but we can be pretty sure they were not rushing her to shake her hand and pat her on the back. I think it likely that they would have beaten her to death if they could have gotten away with it.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 5:53 PM
I completely disagree. Any legitimate speech under assault must be protected if we care at all about free speech. And right now, one of the best ways to protect it is to exercise it and show our solidarity against their barbarism. That’s what Lars was doing, and it is honorable even if it might offend some people.
Esthier on May 16, 2010 at 5:56 PM
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
nomorespin on May 16, 2010 at 5:57 PM
Nothing will change until the west grasps that Muslims themselves only respect strength and despise weakness. Of course that goes against our Christian upbringing and that’s why we continue to think that we can win hearts and minds among Muslims with compassion.
The opposite is the case. Their hearts and minds are with the victorious – that’s what Allah tells them. Their ethics in terms of which they order their hearts and minds – are nothing like what westerners, raised in the Christian faith, understand by the term “hearts and minds”.
Islam does not teach the same sort of compassion for the other that virtually every other religion including today’s “secular humanism” teaches. Muslims murder and torture each other without compunction and their own ummah, “brotherhood” has no condemnation to offer. That’s because they don’t value INDIVIDUAL human life the way we Christian westerners do. It’s not a concept in Islam – which means it’s not a concept in Muslims “hearts and minds”. Their hearts and minds instead understand what Allah teaches them in the Koran – namely, the Collective Will to Power.
When will our leaders understand this? And moreover understand that it is necessary in the end to be “cruel to be kind”, to treat Muslims in the way they themselves understand moral principles? Which ultimately means that they must be beaten back and vanquished and humiliated by a greater strength?
That is clearly what they understand. Every move to win their hearts and minds that strengthens them, merely emboldens them to advance their own peculiar ethics of the world, which couldn’t give a damn about “hearts and minds”, as we understand the term. They will accept the shehada from anyone they can swindle and connive to recite it while at the same time are willing to kill anyone who leaves Islam. Whatever it takes to build the army of Islamic soldiers is what their ethics is about.
But how is it being kind to people to pander to their immaturity and self-deception and base impulses towards power?
Certainly no mature human being would suggest that one should pander to the primitive intellectual, emotional and moral sensibilities of a two-year old? A 2-year old understands the will to power through aggression only. But by the same token a 2-year old also thoroughly understands limitations that he simply has no power to transgress. That’s ultimately what a 2-year old understands.
And that’s basically what we’re dealing with here – 2-year olds – from an intellectual perspective, from a moral perspective, and mostly from a behavioral perspective -except it happens to be 2 year olds armed with weapons they could never have invented for themselves, being 2-year olds, but the fact is that now they’ve got their hands on them!
There is no way of avoiding the reality that the adults in this world are going to have to act like adults and step up and slap – in a big big way – Muslims who have made of their own societies the equivalent of “Lord of the Flies” and who now threaten to overrun every more advanced society with their mayhem.
“It’s cruel to be kind” is going to have to be the anthem of the future relations between the West and Islam. We’re going to have to come to terms with that fact. Either that – or it’s simply going to be cruel for all of us, with no kindness in sight, and possibly no one left to come and rescue us off an Island from hell that in our passivity and cowardice we allowed to be taken over by moral and intellectual pygmies.
Luka on May 16, 2010 at 5:58 PM
I’m curious what J.E. has to say about this. What did Mr. Horowitz say that was offensive? I mean, its okay for muzzies to act like a rabid congress of baboons when they are offended, if I am reading this correctly.
Could it be, that their religion is inherently violent, and teaches them to offer the 3 choices? Nah, that would be silly.
Blarg the Destroyer on May 16, 2010 at 5:59 PM
Another forum I frequent has a certain admin, among whose heuristics for what sort of stuff to moderate is the following: the more (potentially) offensive a joke is, the funnier it had better be. Stuff that the admin doesn’t think passes this test gets deleted from the forum; by analogy, in the public sphere, it’s the stuff that we don’t stand up for (although still allowing it to exist, as we ignore it or argue against it or whatever).
One can extend this to other speech by replacing “funny” with “perceptive” or “insightful”, so as to include stuff like criticism of Islam (which is, to me, what the Motoon cause is really all about – this is a religion that, when left unchecked, leads to women being denied the right to go to school and feel sunlight on their bodies, among other things). That’s why, on May 20, I’m going to draw Mohammed as part of an incredibly witty (I hope) caricature of Islamicizationism, not just as some kind of animal or in some gratuitously obscene milieu.
ClassicalMusicNerd on May 16, 2010 at 6:03 PM
FIFY.
Being “strong” in the face of Islam will make no difference to Islam. (Unless you are talking about getting rid of Islam through some kind of unrealistic mass deportation scheme).
Muslims are still commanded by Islam to kill those that offend Islam.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:04 PM
I read the first paragraph and decided you’re a tool.
terryannonline agrees with this post; I think that tells us something.
This post is unworthy of this site. This site that has defended the cartoonists, this site that has balls enough to post the cartoon images… this is out of step with the rest of Hot Air.
When’s the rebuttal coming? Are we in for another tit-for-tat Green Room war?
-Aslan’s Girl
Aslans Girl on May 16, 2010 at 6:05 PM
All I can imagine, to complete the picture, is a table in front of them, onto which they peacefully lay their heads, to be knifed off.
Schadenfreude on May 16, 2010 at 6:07 PM
And who the Hell said “provocation” [i]is[/i] the “highest form of free speech”, anyway? Strawman much? Disgusting.
-Aslan’s Girl
Aslans Girl on May 16, 2010 at 6:08 PM
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 4:56 PM
This, and your following comments…as usual, you are nice, but naive.
Freedom of speech, and the sacrifice to maintain them, mean so much more than “being nice to each other”.
Schadenfreude on May 16, 2010 at 6:12 PM
Quick google search:
Maybe it was Thomas Jefferson!
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:12 PM
Excellent!
Schadenfreude on May 16, 2010 at 6:12 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how people who call themselves “Christians” equivocate regarding Islam.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:19 PM
As someone who has lived in a Muslim country (Malaysia), I found this post to be clueless about Islam and its inherent radical nature.
There is no such thing as a “peaceful” devout Muslim or a devout Muslim that understands democracy and freedom.
This lecture was no more “provocative” against religion than anything any Christian or Jew has to put up with everyday in the media. Yet, according to this post, we are supposed to believe this caused the violent reaction by Muslims and somehow they are innocent and the cartoonist is guilty.
I guess J.E. Dyer also thinks that American culture was “provocative” and that is why the “innocent” 9/11 terrorists reacted violently. Maybe if our country adopts sharia law and stops defending Israel, then we won’t be “provocative” to Muslims anymore. After all, according to his logic, anything “provocative” is not the “highest form” of freedom, and we should go ahead and adopt an Islamic form of government already.
Gabe on May 16, 2010 at 6:21 PM
Disagree. Telling the truth about Islam, even if done in an “offensive” way, is instructional and empowering. It’s noble, too, and it improves society if the truth gets out. I’ll add courageous to the list.
-Aslan’s Girl
Aslans Girl on May 16, 2010 at 6:22 PM
Sounds like one big cop-out J.E.
Feed that gator because I didn’t want the rancid meat anyway.
RobCon on May 16, 2010 at 6:25 PM
It’s probable that a huge number of ignorant Muslims have no idea what is expected of them in Islam. Getting the truth out could be really, really bad. Millions will finally realize their true religious obligation kill us.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:28 PM
Aww, you’re just jealous. ; )
WaltzingMtilda on May 16, 2010 at 6:28 PM
“First they came for the really bad taste and gross
schlock films..”
After the punk jihad destroys half of Picasso’s stuff will it be cool then to raise an objection?
RobCon on May 16, 2010 at 6:28 PM
JE, I think I disagree.
I didn’t see a scene in which people were simply choosing not to rise and defend a bit of dreck masquerading as film.
I saw a scene in which people sat idly by and watched the reaction to it – including violence – and did nothing.
They *did* choose to sit there and help watch their own rights of freedom of expression die.
The *did* choose to sit there and watch an early episode in a movement to subjugate *them* from a loss of religious and other freedoms go uncommented and do nothing.
It went well beyond simply not defending the film, sorry.
Midas on May 16, 2010 at 6:34 PM
Celebrate – it makes really good ones, like you, stand out.
Schadenfreude on May 16, 2010 at 6:35 PM
Why is it that I someone could be offended by the film Machette yet somehow they don’t run amuck like a rabid pitbull and if they did the media and state would deride, denounce and detain them and rightly so. Why are the rules different for different groups if we are all equal?
RobCon on May 16, 2010 at 6:35 PM
As a Christian I know how it feels to my faith spit on. I am in no way saying that guy was in any way right to assault the filmmaker. However, I don’t think they are required to just sit there and not say a thing.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 6:36 PM
Not say a thing…like “pig” and “c*nt”?
WaltzingMtilda on May 16, 2010 at 6:38 PM
Amen.
Swedes are weak. The Norwegian vikings plundered the British Isles, discovered Iceland, Greenland & North America, settled in Normandy and then took over England a few generations later.
The Swedish vikings did….very little.
Norwegian on May 16, 2010 at 6:39 PM
My issue has nothing to do with freedom of speech. I believe the filmmaker should have been allowed to shown the film. My issue is that it (the film) was purposely offensive and people should be allowed to get angry (not violent) about offensive material like that.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 6:41 PM
Free speech is free speech, whatever the speech may be. Provocative speech is still speech. This is silly.
Who gets to decide what is provocative? The Muslims got away with this action with no negative consequences save a couple of eyes full of pepper spray. The next time they will be offended over something less.
If someone were to blaspheme Christ in front of me I may not like it, but I don’t get to beat the hell out of the offender without suffering legal consequences, and rightly so.
Either you believe in free speech or you don’t.
hillbillyjim on May 16, 2010 at 6:41 PM
On the contrary, they are required to kill those that offend Islam.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:41 PM
Yes, they acted angrily. That’s my point!
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 6:42 PM
100% WRONG.
If those had been Christians protesting, the Swedes would have been up in their face defending freedom of speech, they would not have passively sat by. The difference is that they would know that the Christians were not going to get violent. The Swedes sat by quietly and let the thugs run the show because they valued their own skin more than they valued their liberty.
And that, in a nutshell, is what they’re going to choose for their country over the next 30 years.
PackerBronco on May 16, 2010 at 6:43 PM
Has someone argued that Muslims should not “be allowed to get angry (not violent)?”
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:44 PM
Wonder how he feels about building a mosque at Ground Zero. Is that as deliberately provocative as a stick drawing?
RobCon on May 16, 2010 at 6:45 PM
Are we talking about the same incident? Vilks was physically attacked. That is called violence.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:49 PM
And like the author of the blog post I’ve said that wrong. However, that still doesn’t make the offensive material right. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 6:50 PM
J.E. DYER your defense of the mock offense by these purposefully rowdy muslims is insane. These muslims attended this conference looking for a fight. If the West keeps ceding ground to Radical Muslim immigrants who don’t assimilate at all, then that’s the end of their civilization. Why does the Atheism promoting Swedish Government constantly screw with and censor Christians or Christian material? Yet let Islam go untouched? This is assinine, This is political cowardice and political correctness run amok!
Humphrey007 on May 16, 2010 at 6:52 PM
Submission.
hillbillyjim on May 16, 2010 at 6:54 PM
You are literally equating speech with violence. Let me try to make this clear for you, it may not be “right” (in your opinion) to say certain things, but it is, nonetheless a right. However, not only is it not right to meet speech with violence, but it is also not a right.
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 6:55 PM
And the filmmaker didn’t go looking for fight? Geez, I bet he was just a naive, innocent filmmaker that had no idea that making a film juxtaposing Muhammad and gay images would be offensive.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 6:56 PM
You are talking about legal rights. There rights outside the law. I’m not talking about morally right. It is not morally right to spit on someone’s faith.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 6:58 PM
Mohammad’s followers, stay away from me
Mohammad’s followers, let me be
Don’t come bringing explosives through my airplane door
I don’t want to see your evil faces no more
I got more productive things to do
Than spend my blood and treasure trying to civilize you
Now Muslims, stay away
Muslims, listen what I say
Mohammad’s followers, get away from me
Mohammad’s followers, let me be
Don’t come migrating through my county’s open door
I don’t want to see your Burkas and Mosques and Korans no more
If Mohammad’s words for you can hypnotize
Then go gouge out your own eyes
Now Muslims, stay away
Muslims, listen what I say
Mohammad’s followers, I said get away
Mohammad’s followers, listen what I say
Don’t knock those speaking the truth to the floor
I don’t want to see your evil faces no more
I don’t need your conquest dreams
I don’t need your shariah schemes
If Mohammad’s words for you can hypnotize
Then go gouge out your own eyes
Now Muslims, get away
Muslims, listen what I say
Muslims, stay away from me
Muslims, let me be
I gotta go
I gotta getta away
Think I gotta go
Trying to civilize you would just be going way astray
I’m gonna leave you Islamic world
I’m gonna leave you Islamic world
Bye bye, bye bye
Bye bye, bye bye
Mohammad’s followers
You’re no good for me
I’m never going to civilize you
Looking at you right in the eye
Tell you what I’m gonna do
Just stay in your own Hell holes
Just stay in your own Hell holes
You know you really should go
You really should leave Muslims
Back to your own Hell holes you should go
If we have to come back it won’t be with a band
It will be with the Strategic Air Command
Yeah!
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 6:59 PM
Terryann, yes this was deliberately provocative and meant to cause offense. I don’t understand the point of repeating this reality over and over again.
nomorespin on May 16, 2010 at 7:02 PM
So? You think that Christians should run amok every time an anti-Christian film is shown?
The man is courageous for shining a bright light the degree to which Islam is incongruous with Western civilization.
hillbillyjim on May 16, 2010 at 7:03 PM
Would you spit in a toilet? A toilet deserves more respect than Islam. Toilets after all support health. Islam supports oppression and cruelty and, yes, evil.
MB4 on May 16, 2010 at 7:03 PM
Was the filmmaker violent? Did he attack physically attack anyone?
Look, saying something offensive to any other religious group can be met with derision and potentially anger. But it is required for Muslims to react to such offense with violence. It is required by their faith.
You really don’t understand the difference?
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 7:04 PM
The film maker did not take his film and show it at the local mosque. The question is, was any taxpayer money paid to the film maker to make his film.
MeatHeadinCA on May 16, 2010 at 7:05 PM
Why does it matter if the video was morally right or not? To me, it makes no difference.
nomorespin on May 16, 2010 at 7:05 PM
It is not morally right for Michael Moore to produce his claptrap either, but that doesn’t justify a violent response. Free speech means you can say things that are just wrong, offensive, reprehensible, or even purposefully hateful (unless you are in Canada, of course.)
hillbillyjim on May 16, 2010 at 7:08 PM
Wow. Please, let us know, what are the other “morals” in this newfangled system you just made up?
July 10 on May 16, 2010 at 7:11 PM
Ugh. How many times do I have to say this: I never said the violence was justified.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 7:12 PM
As conservatives shouldn’t we recognize there are other issues outside law and taxpayer money. I am not talking about law or taxpayer money…..I find it morally wrong to spit on other’s beliefs.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 7:15 PM
Well as a Christian….I get many of moral beliefs from my faith in Jesus.
terryannonline on May 16, 2010 at 7:16 PM
As American Conservatives, we should be conserving/defending Constitutional ideals. Freedom of speech included. What is not defensible is taxpayer funded subsidies to offensive “expression.” That’s why as conservatives, we should worry most about the law and taxpayer money.
MeatHeadinCA on May 16, 2010 at 7:22 PM
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