Quotes of the day
posted at 10:40 pm on May 6, 2010 by Allahpundit
“Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
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Well, I need to be getting off of here in a minute, and Sauer, thanks for the kind comments above.
I guess what I’m trying to say, in just a few words, is this:
Christianity IS different. And I believe it to be true. And this appears to be the big sticking point you are saying….. “how coincidental you are born into this; how do you KNOW”; etc.
So let me just ask you/leave you with this:
If there is a God (which you seem to believe), then unless he never intervened ever, God would have told some human he is God. And that human would likely worship God, aka practice some form of RELIGION, and considering we know a lot about all religions, ancient and modern (though I’d assume it would still be around, otherwise God’s plan for the religion didnt work). But since we can list the religions, there’s only so many possibilties.
With me?
So what I’m saying is, if there is a God, don’t you think that God would be a God of neverending forgiveness for any kind of screwup, a God of 2nd/3rd/500th chances, a God that is egalitarian that cares nothing about class or race or mental acumen or physical specimen? Don’t you think that a God trying to save humanity would make it possible for ALL humanity to be saved?
what i mean is, every other religion out there breaks this law. Judaism limits it to a chosen people. hindus have their ‘untouchables’ castes. there’s not really a god in buddhism, and i suppose those with mental handicaps can’t reach enlightenment, how fair is that? muslims force their faith on you, and emphasize their worldly success as proof of god’s love, AND there are unforgiveable sins in islam.
logically, if there is a God, why on earth would he say “ah only born-Jews can be saved” or “only born-Brahmins are possibly going to heaven”? If there is a God that is saving humanity, why WOULDNT God make room for the possibility of ANYONE being saved, with chance after chance after chance.
Hence….. Christianity is the only one that fits the bill.
Thanks for the great debates and goodnight/goodmorning!
battleoflepanto1571 on May 7, 2010 at 5:51 AM
I don’t know about you, but from where I’m sitting, America hasn’t had a good day since NObama, the president who will do anything and go anywhere to avoid going to church on Sunday, took office.
Coincidence?
Jenfidel on May 7, 2010 at 6:00 AM
battleoflepanto1571 on May 7, 2010 at 5:51 AM
You need Occam’s Razor battleofleplanto1571… Occams razor tells us that when seeking an answer to a question, and you have multiple possible answers, often the correct answer is the simplest one…
If all you say is true and god is indeed omnipotent and omniscient, etc… Surely he knows how fallible we all are, and loves us all the same, but WHY have to go through all the rigamarole of sacrificing himself on a cross to get his point across to us? Why be so out of this world and unknowable? Why allow us to quibble over all these religions we practice to this day? Why not just make himself known to us all so that we can clear this up once and for all and stop with the fighting, etc…
You have important questions? Keep the answers as simple as possible.
It’s a virus meme that was foisted on us in the infancy of our species when we didn’t know any better. The lame answers of the apologists inadequately answer these questions to me. They lack depth and should be gonged off the stage for the lackluster explanations that they are.
It’s a mega belief… It’s like a multi headed hydra monster whereby even if you knock out only a FEW of the arguments for a god/religion, there are always other pillars of thought that bring you right back in.
It’s like a game of whack a mole. You beat down the arguments one by one but as one gets knocked down, the others pop back up.
SauerKraut537 on May 7, 2010 at 6:03 AM
I don’t know about you, but from where I’m sitting, America hasn’t had a good day since NObama, the president who will do anything and go anywhere to avoid going to church on Sunday, took office.
Coincidence?
Jenfidel on May 7, 2010 at 6:00 AM
This country started going down way before he stepped into office but he’s surely speeding up the process considerably. But his lack of faith ISN’T the reason we’re in the state we’re in. His dumb ideas are though, and don’t forget… We have Bush to thank for getting the ball rolling.
SauerKraut537 on May 7, 2010 at 6:05 AM
Absolutely right.
Ah, yes. The already/not yet conundrum. :)
Bee on May 7, 2010 at 6:05 AM
No. Obama (one of yours, btw) is a horribly inept executive who inherited a mess from a slightly less inept executive (also one of yours, btw).
RightOFLeft on May 7, 2010 at 6:15 AM
Thanks!
So, essentially, you dispute the concept of natural law? And, no, I’m not a fan of any theorist in particular. I just enjoy the discussion and think Christians are actually better served understanding our philosophical underpinnings than otherwise. Call it a labor of love. ;)
Well said.
Bee on May 7, 2010 at 6:33 AM
Obama isn’t “one of ours” in any sense of the word.
And President Bush wasn’t inept–anything but!
I miss him so much!
You’re not very right of the Left, are you?
Jenfidel on May 7, 2010 at 6:49 AM
Yes, it’s a hallmark of Civilization which is why we talk about the 10 Commandments, as well as the Code of Hammarabi.
Jenfidel on May 7, 2010 at 6:50 AM
I think western culture is rooted in certain aspects of the Christian religion. However, our constitution has always stood for religious freedom.
BTW, the Treaty of Tripoli was broken in 1801 by the Prasha of Tripoli. And then came the Marines. From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli…..
Terrye on May 7, 2010 at 6:53 AM
Actually, this has been debated by greater theologians than us, but it’s perfectly possible that Adam’s original sin and “the Fall (of Man)” weren’t ordained by God and that it was absolutely Man’s free choice (to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life) that brought about Sin.
Jenfidel on May 7, 2010 at 6:54 AM
Of course we’re a Christian nation, and I would be leery of anyone who says otherwise.
I think Allahpundit needs to watch Glenn Beck for some education.
disa on May 7, 2010 at 7:22 AM
Maybe they read that document about as carefully before signing it as our leaders did the Obamacare bill.
jackmac on May 7, 2010 at 7:31 AM
I do realize that. :) I know it’s difficult to square God’s ultimate goodness, his omniscience, foreknowledge and predestination with the Fall, but, to deny that He also ordained that evil/sin would exist is denying His ultimate sovereignty and control over the events within His own creation. I much prefer a religious truth I struggle with emotionally than a manipulation of His character to accommodate my discomfort.
Bee on May 7, 2010 at 7:32 AM
So how does a non-Christian have any place in your Christian nation?
beatcanvas on May 7, 2010 at 7:39 AM
So how does a non-Christian have any place in your Christian nation?
beatcanvas on May 7, 2010 at 7:40 AM
*braces self*
Beck espouses some of the murkiest “theology” out there. He’s better served talking politics and leaving his his emotional “Come to Jesus” diatribes out of it. Then again, I normally just turn it down until he’s finished.
Bee on May 7, 2010 at 7:40 AM
Internet atheists are so silly
aikidoka on May 7, 2010 at 7:46 AM
Why the angst, AP? Come into the light. We have cookies too.
Fletch54 on May 7, 2010 at 7:48 AM
I missed this earlier. Thank you!
*It’s Diane, btw. ;)
Bee on May 7, 2010 at 7:52 AM
Judging from what I’e seen of AP’s knowledge of Christian theology and defense of the faith I would think he already did get his religious education from Glenn Beck ;)
aikidoka on May 7, 2010 at 7:55 AM
Good news: atheists, muslims, etc. have more rights and freedoms in Christian nations than Christians have in atheist or muslim nations.
Johnny 100 Pesos on May 7, 2010 at 8:03 AM
Her explanation of what she meant was fine. I have no problem with it.
AnninCA on May 7, 2010 at 8:07 AM
Or, Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc enjoy more freedom in a nation where there is freedom of religion than in other nations.
P.S. Britain was a Christian nation that Christians fled because they didn’t have the freedom they needed.
beatcanvas on May 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM
On the contrary…it is, in part, the basis for our form of government…Locke was very influential…
What I’m not buying is, maybe, your disregard of the religious influence.
Do I have that correct?
jerrytbg on May 7, 2010 at 8:29 AM
We are a predominately Christian nation founded by predominately Christian founders.
jimmy2shoes on May 7, 2010 at 8:35 AM
Translation: “The federal govt is not an instrument of the Church, and we would never attack anyone because they were a different religion.”
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature,” -John Adams, Works, Vol. X, pp. 45-46, to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.
just because the govt is neutral on matters of religion doesn’t mean that this isn’t a Christian country.
If, unlike AP, you are a fair and open-minded person not blinded by hateful atheism, there’s more here citing original sources.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 8:56 AM
Benjamin Franklin at the Congressional Congress, 1787
kingsjester on May 7, 2010 at 8:56 AM
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” -Congress of the United States of America.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 8:58 AM
“The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.” -George Washington’s letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 343.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:00 AM
“Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” -Article III of the Northwest Ordinance (An Ordinance for the Government of the Territory of the United States, North-West of the River Ohio), enacted under the Articles of Confederation July 13th, 1787, and re-enacted under the Constitution on August 7, 1789.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:01 AM
“Laus Deo,” Latin for “Praise God.” -Inscribed on the eastern face of the apex of the Washington Monument in Washington, D.C., so placed as to be the first thing illuminated at sunrise in our nation’s capitol.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:01 AM
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” -John Jay, First Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and co-author of the Federalist Papers, letter to Jedidiah Morse, 28 Feb 1797.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:02 AM
“The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” -Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence (Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM
John Adams had it right.
“This government is founded for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.”
In other words, our Constitution recognizes substantial personal liberty based on a belief that natural rights of man are given to us by God, and can only be sustained if people first govern themselves according to God’s moral and religious code. People left to their own devices cannot govern themselves or one another. Those who abandon God and his laws will soon begin demanding that men impose more and more rules on each other to govern their naturally selfish and destructive behavior and limit their freedom. Eventually such people begin actively driving out God in order to replace his laws with their own “better” laws, which always produce a society that is less free and less moral. And there will always be large and bitter divisions amng the people as to what constitutes appropriate regulation of society when we refuse to recognize God’s laws as supreme.
You don’t have to be a philosopher genius to see that is exactly what has happened in Europe and is happening now in the U.S. Our Constitution is useless if Americans do not govern themslves according to God’s laws. The end result will be tyranny and slavery.
rockmom on May 7, 2010 at 9:07 AM
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens,” –George Washington (Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)
Patriot comes from pater, father. The father of our country says AP is not a patriot.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:10 AM
Now … don’t you go quoting one of the Founding Fathers (one of the major ones) when Allah has found this perfectly good pirate treaty to disprove him!
HondaV65 on May 7, 2010 at 9:27 AM
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/religious-depictions.htm
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 9:45 AM
They say it’s true. What’s yer point?
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 9:54 AM
More evidence that we are a Christian nation.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 9:58 AM
Oh, I see you posted the same thing. I missed it. Consider my post further confirmation of your post.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 10:03 AM
And other “Major Founder” Jefferson was decidedly ambivilant about religion.
Anyways, I am not saying that we should be a nation of Atheists. I dont think Allah is either.
But to say that the founders, as a group, decided that we were a nation where the government would implicitly endorse Christianity is also incorrect.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 10:07 AM
Any one that thinks we are not a Christian nation, and that the founders, including Jefferson, would not endorse Christianity, should watch the entire series from below. It provides compelling arguments to the contrary.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Anastasis300#p/u/64/3VT40nDrFHA
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 10:15 AM
Hmmmm.
@ SauerKraut537
It has nothing to do with piety you imbecilic twit.
The fact is that the Judeo-Christian ethics and underlying principles are by demonstration a successful combination for civilization. Look at the most powerful and wealthy nations on Earth and you’ll see that they are by and large Christian. Look at countries that are improving their economies and you’ll see that they are rapidly increasing their quotient of Christian converts.
Look at the pestholes of the world and they are either utterly secular, Socialist or believers in Islam.
Fact is that Capitalism + Christianity = success.
memomachine on May 7, 2010 at 10:25 AM
“America is no longer a Christian nation,” -Obooba.
So he believes that it once was, the only argument is about whether it still is. Actually, he apparently doesn’t think there’s any argument.
“America is one of the largest Muslim nations in the world,” -Obooba.
So, the manchild is not against America being religious, only Christian.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 10:32 AM
~~~
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.” -Thomas Jefferson (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)
“I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.” -Thomas Jefferson (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state and on a general plan.” -The Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C.
“Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.” -The Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 10:34 AM
Does Allah never tire of these atheist threads?
I’m reminded of Pat Buchanan saying that homosexuality used to be the “love that dare not speak its name” and now it’s the “love that won’t shut up.” Same with Allah and his atheist crap.
In so doing Allah is alienating the loyal conservative and drawing the always offended libtard to this site. Yeah, I know there are people who say they are conservative and atheists but they are deluded in their conservatisim.
Haunches on May 7, 2010 at 10:44 AM
Oh, BTW Jefferson was one of many founding fathers and the least successful monetarily. I’m sick of him being quoted ad infinitum. There’s always one problem child in every bunch. He was given the job of writing the declaration because of his residency not because he was the end all and be all of enlightenment philosophy.
Haunches on May 7, 2010 at 10:47 AM
Really? Then care to explain Christian countries in Africa that are economic hell-holes.
Capitalism + Western Rationalism = Success. Rome was far more successful than we were and they were Pagan until Constantine.
Holger on May 7, 2010 at 10:47 AM
I have no problem with Palin acknowledging our Christian roots or anyone else doing so, either. She included the most important aspect of our country in her discussion, which is that people are free to worship (or not) in our country. The reality is that she’s quite right. Our foundation is based upon a lot of commonsense found in religions, but I personally think those principles are found in every major religion. Christianity isn’t terribly unique in that sense.
What does bother me about atheists is that espouse the idea that they should live in a country where the idea of prayer or spiritual references should be scrubbed.
Why? I never get people who demand that others live according to THEIR comfort level, and that includes the anti-abortion crowd. I say, “Fine, don’t get one, for heaven’s sakes.”
Fine, don’t pray.
I personally think nutcases have taken over way too much of the media discussions. It’s worn-out shock-jock journalism that’s as much to blame as anything.
And until someone figures that out and starts offering sensibility, people are going to continue to quit buying papers, turn off the national news outlets and probably even avoid on-line news.
AnninCA on May 7, 2010 at 10:48 AM
Thank you for those quotes! Nothing pisses me off more than this liberal myth that Jefferson was not a Christian and/or was ambivalent about religion. It’s right there in his own freaking memorial!!
rockmom on May 7, 2010 at 10:48 AM
OK, you essentially just proved my point. I respect Jesus as a philosopher too, it does not mean I think he is the Messiah, and I dont think that Jefferson really thought that either.
Thanks for the support though.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 10:50 AM
If this were Mythbusters, I’d say the Jefferson non-religious meme would get a “Busted.”
Kudos for your efforts.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 10:51 AM
Deism was just sort of big back then.
Anyone read Hamilton’s biography?
Fascinating discussion was in that book about the tension on this subject from the very get-go.
Even then, some loathed the Christian proseletyzers. That was also an issue leading to the Civil War. The biography of Lincoln was excellent, too, in discussing his struggle with it.
And it remains a discussion today.
AnninCA on May 7, 2010 at 10:52 AM
Where does it say that he was a Christian? Admiring Jesus does not make you a Christian. Do you think that someone who was a Christian would cut all the miracles out of the Bible. Seriously.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 10:52 AM
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=22345
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 10:55 AM
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
And hopefully this will bring some clarity to your quotes about Jesus:
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 10:59 AM
Like…
That’s pretty darned silly. We are going the same direction Rome went in its decline. Rome, the imperialist despotic polytheistic slave state, is the embodiment of western rationalism? That’s pretty darned silly.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:00 AM
Jefferson was not the only founding father! Why do you atheists persist in acting like he is?
Haunches on May 7, 2010 at 11:00 AM
“Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion,” -The Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:02 AM
That would refer to English common law. It says nothing about the United States.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:04 AM
Neither was Adams, or Franklin or Rush. I think it most indicative that even though there was VAST majority of the founders who were actively practicing Christians, not ONCE is Jesus or Christianity mentioned in our governing documents.
Why, because they, to varying degrees were enlightenement men. They believed in the ability of Man to govern himself, worship himself and make his own decisions without the government exercising coercion over his spiritual life (as in England).
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:05 AM
There are many people who consider themselves Christians who are ignorant of the faith, perhaps even you. No one’s saying Jefferson was a theologian.
What is undeniable is that he endorsed Christianity publicly but was skeptical of it privately. An honest observation would be, therefore, that he had not the courage of his convictions enough to defend them in the public square.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:07 AM
Jefferson wasn’t the only Founding Father, but he did contribute greatly to our true foundation, which is to separate state and church.
Now, to me? A day of prayer, for example, is not a religious endorsement.
However, I do cherish the fact that we don’t call ourselves a “Christian” nation. I don’t mind the truth that our principles are rooted in that religious background, but that’s not the same as a theocracy.
And I do NOT care to see Christian right back into politics as they once were. They are divisive.
AnninCA on May 7, 2010 at 11:07 AM
This is one discussion that shouldn’t be taken out of context.
Palin was commenting on the Day of Prayer controversy.
AnninCA on May 7, 2010 at 11:09 AM
Well even if I bought that load of crap (which I dont) since the English common law is absolutely the basis for American common law with almost no substantial changes, particularly in Jefferson era, I think that that would be irrelevant. Furthermore, the parts of the British Common Law are still used as part of the American Common law. British cases are still cited in decisions nearly every day.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:09 AM
From the US Constitution:
Now I know you are going to argue that “Lord” doesn’t refer ,to Jesus, but you would be incorrect.
http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos/21.25/
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:12 AM
I have yet to see a quote where Jefferson endorsed the theological aspects of Christianity. Those quotes were no more public or private than yours. And the ones I provided are far stronger in their condemnation of theological Christianity than yours are in support of it.
You dont really have to try as hard as you seem to be to rationalize the two sets of quotes. It is clear that Jefferson respected the philosophy of Jesus and his teaching about our relationships with each other. But it is also clear that he did not think that the divinity of Jesus or his miracles were pertinent. In fact, it would seem that he thought everyone got too hung up on the divinity and missed the entire point.
In any case, yes he could have been a Christian, in the same sense that someone is Lockean or Socratian.
As for me, I am Jewish.
Th
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:15 AM
“Year of Our Lord”?
Constantly invoking Jesus would be like fish constantly talking about water. There was no confusion or controversy in their minds that required them constantly to affirm that to them, religion = Christianity.
What “common law” is referred to in the 7th Amendment?
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:16 AM
You alluded to it with the England reference, but I think the answer to this “why” question is far more practical.
They didn’t mention Christianity, because they did not want to require someone to espouse faith in order to serve patriotically in a country which was (and is) predominantly Christianity, and because if you mention religion explicitly you will soon find yourself determining which branch to officially endorse.
Not a Roman Catholic, Puritan, Baptist, Jewish etc. state- but a state founded by profoundly religious thinkers, by and large.
cs89 on May 7, 2010 at 11:18 AM
Well golly gee, I never knew that that is that “AD” stood for.
Looks like that means we are a Christian nation! Debate settled!
Or it was the traditional way to indicate the date in official and formal documentation.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:18 AM
Oops, sorry about leaving bold on.
cs89 on May 7, 2010 at 11:18 AM
Yes, for those following Christianity. Apparently you didn’t read the link, which explains it.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:20 AM
At the time of the drafting, it would mostly be referring to English Common Law. Since there was no American Common Law of any substance.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:21 AM
You atheists have your champ in the white house. How is that working out for everyone?
Inanemergencydial on May 7, 2010 at 11:21 AM
Previously mentioned above.
Give it a watch, at least the first 20 segments, then get back to me. For those who refuse to seek learing, ignornace is no excuse.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:23 AM
Obviously “learning.”
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:25 AM
I read the link, it does not change my statement, we were an English speaking people just separated from a European nation. The accepted manner in which to denote the date on official contracts and other government documents was the date followed by in the year of our lord …. It is still that way or “old style” official documents, such as on my degrees or even my high school diploma.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:25 AM
Rome wasn’t a model though they were a step up from other civilizations at the time. But neither is America with its history. And we are falling the same way as Rome (and we started with a completely different culture and Religion).
But Rome was very very successful. They went from a small city on the Italian peninsula to controlling the then known world. More than mere control of that land, they turned it into what it is today. Without Rome, none of us would exist and Christ would probably have been a heretical figure instead of the founder of a religion considering the corruption of Society allowed Christianity to spread and the Power of Roman Imperial Authority was later harnessed to further spread the faith.
We have made all the mistakes of Rome.
Holger on May 7, 2010 at 11:26 AM
I was wondering when some prole would whip this one out.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:27 AM
Wonder no more, willfully blind man.
Inanemergencydial on May 7, 2010 at 11:28 AM
At any rate, the other quotes from Rush, Washington, Jay etc demonstrate that the Founders were Christians. Some may have been more accurately creedal than others, but the milieau, the matrix that produced them, was Christianity.
By the way, some of my best friends are Jews…
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:30 AM
Of course, you didn’t mention the part referenced in the link for the date designation used in non-Christian countries. Nice try, though.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:31 AM
Now you Christian Nation types are really stretching it there. The Christian Calender was the only calender in use by Western Civilization, there was no other.
As for the Lord part. Meh, proves nothing other than the faith of the Thinkers, not their intent.
Point out to me in the US Constitution or the Declaration of Independence that says (the wording does not matter) that the United States was founded as a Kingdom of God for the express purpose of being God’s Instrument. It does not exist, and the Founding Father’s would laugh at anyone who claimed this. It seems Christians today have devolved from the lofty standards of our Forefathers into mere Tribalists.
Holger on May 7, 2010 at 11:33 AM
Well, off to a new thread. I’ve given Allah enough hit count for one of his athiest threads, and to continue to agrue the point with those that have been given evidence and refuse to see the preponderance of evidence to support the US as being founded as a Christian nation, is useless. Akzed, keep up the good fight. My prayers for your success are with you.
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:35 AM
Check it out.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:36 AM
Anyone who could emit such doublethink is not a worthy opponent… sorry to have engaged you… I didn’t mean to embarrass you, or allow you to embarrass yourself. Please accept my apology.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:38 AM
That is pretty much what I said earlier, but they were also enlightenment men, most did not think that anything good resulted from “excessive entaglement” which is the standard we use today in interpreting the establishment clause.
Isnt that what they all say ;)
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:39 AM
mwdiver on May 7, 2010 at 11:35 AM
Godspeed.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:39 AM
“They?!”
You people…
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 11:40 AM
Ok, now spend a while discussing “the free exercise thereof” clause. All you liberal atheists like to forget that one.
Haunches on May 7, 2010 at 11:43 AM
There is alot of stretching going on in that Brief. But if he believes that to be true, it is fine. But the Common Law comes from cases and rulings. Whether there was an application of a statute that came about because of the 10 Commandments or some other Jewish Law, I am not sure how that actually translates into Christianity being part of the common law.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:44 AM
I love how you guys always try to frame this as a Christians against Atheists debate. I guess it makes you feel better without any pesky moral ambiguities.
Squid Shark on May 7, 2010 at 11:45 AM
Allah’s assertions are refuted here.
I love how atheist pick the (appearant) exception to always overthrow the rule…Jefferson and the founding fathers have dozens mor qoutes supproting their belief in diety than the quotes the atheists alway through out…but that sometimes takes intellectual honesty and some personal research!
RedLizard64 on May 7, 2010 at 11:47 AM
It is indeed a Christian nation. All of the Atheists will be rounded up into camps as soon as the Methodist Martyrs Brigades finish with their potluck preparations.
WOE unto the oppressed Atheist minority, I say! You will recant your blasphemy or FACE THE TERROR OF A STRONGLY WORDED LETTER! Yes, I said it! And it will have WORDS for you! Worse yet, YOU MIGHT BE INVITED TO A CHURCH!!!
BWAHAHA! Your time is at its end, oh Godless ones!
TheUnrepentantGeek on May 7, 2010 at 11:54 AM
LOL! Good one! Moral vs Amoral. I get it, atheists don’t have “morals” but Christians should be constrained by theirs in arguing that they have morals and atheists don’t! Gotcha! Hahahahahah.
Haunches on May 7, 2010 at 12:00 PM
You think it Doublethink to point out that Year of Our Lord means nothing less than the Faith of the Framers and not their Intent? You really are disingenuous.
And note, there was no other way of Dating years. Western Civilization long ago put Christ’s alleged year of birth as year 0. So them using a calender in use for nearly two millennium must suddenly equal them Establishing a Christian Nation, am I right?
And nice of you to not even mention the rest of the post that points out if the Claims of Christians concerning the Preeminent importance Christianity held in regards to the Founding of this Nation, certainly Christ, His Crucifixion or Resurrection would be mentioned somewhere (maybe it is in invisible ink) somewhere in the two preeminent documents they ratified.
It really is Genius what you did. You pointed out something, claiming it Doublethink, and used that claim to discount the rest of my post which showed how truly problematic the Position of Christian Nation types is.
Holger on May 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM
Moreover. Year of Our Lord is the Translation of Anno Domini, which is found in modern Western Dating as A.D.
So them using the proper Translation of a system of Dating equals Original Intent!
Wow.
Holger on May 7, 2010 at 12:11 PM
Didn’t say they were founding a Christian nation. It was already a Christian nation. The Founders were not separating from Christ, but Britain.
Akzed on May 7, 2010 at 12:28 PM
The founders were more concerned about not getting into the catholic/protestant/sectarian mess. They kept it general for that reason not because they were liberal atheists.
Haunches on May 7, 2010 at 12:45 PM
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