For some reason, Lieberman will introduce bill to strip terror-linked Americans of citizenship
posted at 4:56 pm on May 5, 2010 by Allahpundit
What is the point of this?
Lieberman’s office has clarified to me how the law would work: It would empower the State Department to conclude — on its own — that Americans are conspiring with terror groups and should be stripped of their citizenship.
Lieberman’s law would amend an earlier statute that details other things that can cost you citizenship: Serving in the army of a foreign state, pledging allegiance to a foreign state, and so on. In those cases the State Department decides whether your disloyalty merits loss of citizen status. Lieberman’s law would add involvement with a foreign terror organization — as opposed to a foreign state — to this list…
You would still have the right to contest this in court. And if you did, the burden of proof would be on State — not on you — to persuade the court that your involvement with a terror organization is sufficient to justify taking away your citizen status.
The idea, I guess, is to let interrogators question a citizen jihadi without having to Mirandize him first, but how would that work exactly? Does State denaturalize him on a hunch before he’s even arrested, when the cops are still compiling evidence of terror links? Or do they denaturalize him afterwards — in which case, shouldn’t the cops Mirandize him anyway in case State’s denaturalization ruling gets thrown out in court later?
The punchline, per Byron York? If they want to question him without Miranda, there’s already — theoretically — a way to do that.
Administration officials point out that Shahzad is a naturalized American citizen and thus is entitled to the full range of U.S. constitutional rights. That’s not entirely accurate. While being an American citizen means that Shahzad will ultimately be tried in civilian court — the Military Commissions Act applies only to aliens — there is no reason that Shahzad could not be declared an enemy combatant, held indefinitely and questioned at length during that period without Miranda rights. “He couldn’t be prosecuted in military court,” says the aide, “but he could be held for intelligence interrogation purposes.” The aide points out that Yaser Esam Hamdi, who was captured in Afghanistan, was a U.S. citizen, and the Supreme Court ruled that he could be held as an enemy combatant, although he had the right to challenge that designation in court.
That’s purely theoretical on York’s part because The One gave up long ago on the idea of “enemy combatants.” He also gave up, of course, on enhanced interrogation, so the feds aren’t going to be more aggressive with a suspect just because he’s been denaturalized. Which brings me back to the original point: What extra benefit is there from doing this? The only thing I can think of is that it’d make Shahzad eligible for a military tribunal, but why we need to do that when federal court has always been good enough for citizens charged with treason escapes me. (Gadahn is under federal indictment for treason right now, in fact.) Exit question: Overkill?









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Lieberman and McCain on the same side of an issue???? I’m shocked, I tell you! Shocked!
Chewy the Lab on May 5, 2010 at 5:48 PM
Dire Straits, if they are amending the naturalization code, they are in fact limited to law under that code.
SarahW on May 5, 2010 at 5:49 PM
Whoa. Is this the new SarahW blog I heard so much about?
HornetSting on May 5, 2010 at 5:49 PM
Well maybe I don’t understand the term treason, I thought it applied to citizens who wage war on their country and if they are stripped of that citizenship how can they be tried for treason? Would Lieberman like to take the treason charge off the table and possibly have him tried with a lesser crime?
fourdeucer on May 5, 2010 at 5:50 PM
….Lindsey is jealous.
HornetSting on May 5, 2010 at 5:50 PM
I think Andy McCarthy’s post at the corner today should be added to this post.
also Daniel Greenfield for some old school points….
The Constitution and Times Square bomber
jp on May 5, 2010 at 5:50 PM
Only 20 years?
Del Dolemonte on May 5, 2010 at 5:51 PM
Why not address the real problem, which is our paralysis in dealing with known terrorists in our custody. KSM has admitted he helped plan 9/11, and nearly 9 years later he is still drawing air.
Citizen or not, set up a fast track trial system, quick appeals process still conforming with the law, and finally a first class execution.
“Justice should be swift, and certain.”
GnuBreed on May 5, 2010 at 5:51 PM
I think we can agree that the first thing that needs to stop is these 10 year student visas for foreigners needs to STOP! that would be a better law.
Dire Straits on May 5, 2010 at 5:51 PM
The longest journey starts with the first step.
Keep in mind the fact that one does not need US citizenship to construct and detonate a bomb inside the US.
Is this amendment supposed to be some sort of deterrent to terrorists who are still on the fence? No. These are people who seem to enjoy strapping a bomb to their chest; why would a loss of this intangible thing “citizenship” have any effect on them?
Does this amendment increase the safety and security of you and yours by any metric? No. Not one bit. So WTF is it’s purpose? It has no purpose other than giving politicians something to bray about as we close in on November.
BobMbx on May 5, 2010 at 5:52 PM
If naturalized citizens who join the ranks of an army are able to be dealt with by the law, why not jihadi style soldiers?
SarahW on May 5, 2010 at 5:52 PM
It’s not just about avoiding Miranda. This would keep their trials out of the court system. Didn’t we, aren’t we, going through the same thing with KSM–trying to keep him out of the court system? How do you keep someone out of the court system if they are a citizen, as was alluded to above (jukin on May 5, 2010 at 5:34 PM)? What am I missing here–this seems pretty straight forward to me–so probably I’m missing something.
smellthecoffee on May 5, 2010 at 5:52 PM
I agree with Dire Straits: He already violated the terms under which citizenship was granted…therefore, viola! No more citizenship: that oath is, to quote our illustrious Veep: “A big eyfing deal!”
It’s called treason! Why is this difficult to understand?
Chewy the Lab on May 5, 2010 at 5:52 PM
Let’s strip 85% of the H1B visas immediately.
SouthernGent on May 5, 2010 at 5:53 PM
Relax. We can’t even deport twenty to forty illegal aliens without someone peeing themselves….
The ACLU will come to the rescue…
HornetSting on May 5, 2010 at 5:54 PM
I’ll buy that for a dollar.
Give you a buck fifty for 100%.
BobMbx on May 5, 2010 at 5:55 PM
BObmx but there are already several ways codified in law for a naturalized citizen to have his citizenship revoked.
This isn’t much of a leap, really, in terms of law, just an adaptation of current law to reflect reality.
It recognizes that guerilla or terror war against the US is just like joining the army of a country engaged in hostilities with the US.
SarahW on May 5, 2010 at 5:55 PM
SarahW and anyong talking the Citizenship oath point
be sure to read the Sultan Kinesh post on this.
jp on May 5, 2010 at 5:55 PM
EPIC Due Process fail on the part of the Liebs.
Squid Shark on May 5, 2010 at 5:55 PM
My take is Lieberman just wants to update the old law. Current law already allows for forfeiture of citizenship if one joins a foreign army. What’s the difference between, e.g. joining Al Qaeda and Russian air force (or, if you want to pick a country at war with U.S., North Korea)?
Lieberman’s amendment will simply update the law to reflect the realities of asymmetric warfare, where many of our active enemies are not sovereign nations.
BTW, regarding,
that would be overkill—some studies do take 10 years (in fact, undergraduate and graduate study combined in almost any discipline will take about 10 years). The visa becomes invalid if you don’t maintain student status for any semester, anyway.
novakyu on May 5, 2010 at 5:55 PM
If the Jihadi was instead a naturalized Citizen working as a KGB Operative to blow up our cities….would he be treated as a US Citizen? no
jp on May 5, 2010 at 5:56 PM
Oh I forgot to add…I don’t care if they read him his Miranda rights, the Three Little Pigs and War and Peace.
It won’t matter. They have plenty of evidence against him. Also, I’m sure he has been Mirandized already…the coward is still singing like a canary telling everyone how clever and well-connected he is as a member of Club Jihad.
Chewy the Lab on May 5, 2010 at 5:57 PM
BObmx, no it greases the path to revocation of citizenship for persons who use their citizenship to aid warfare against the US.
SarahW on May 5, 2010 at 5:57 PM
Yep, and take us back to the Original Intent(AND ACTIONS) of the Founders themselves.
jp on May 5, 2010 at 5:57 PM
Good Point. But they need to be checked up on to see if they are doing what they are supposed to be. See 9-11 for reference.
Dire Straits on May 5, 2010 at 5:59 PM
Yup, like most Democrats when you scratch him you find a fascist hiding underneath the veneer. :)
Good Solid B-Plus on May 5, 2010 at 6:00 PM
Thanks for that link. There is some food for thought in that article.
GnuBreed on May 5, 2010 at 6:01 PM
I’ll keep an eye on the membership rolls of the various man-caused disaster teams to see if this has any effect.
Its just another feel good rule made by a bunch of dolts who couldn’t find their own arse with a map and GPS. Much like the rule against lighters on planes. No lighters, but matches are okay. WTF?
In football, there is a similar illogical rule: Roughing the kicker. If you run into the kicker, you’ve committed an infraction. The purpose of the rule is for the safety of the kicker as his body position during and after the kick leaves him vulnerable to injury.
But, if you block the kick, the “Roughing the Kicker” penalty no longer applies. Kill the bastard. So, what was the for, again?
Stupidity.
BobMbx on May 5, 2010 at 6:01 PM
I think they should at least refrain from giving citizenship to people who are on the terror watch list. I read a post at Strata-Sphere and there was a quote from a NYT article that said the Feds were watching Shazad back in 2004, years before he became a citizen.
Terrye on May 5, 2010 at 6:02 PM
That was Branded. Chuck Connors starred in both The Rifleman and Branded.
single stack on May 5, 2010 at 6:07 PM
Leeb is just a fool tool of the NWO (New World Order) cabal.
PappyD61 on May 5, 2010 at 6:11 PM
Ever think about the No-Fly list? Just exactly, why is there a list of people who aren’t allowed to fly on airplanes (because they might try to blow them up or something), but they are allowed to take the bus, subway, a cab, or their own damn car anywhere they want to go, and live their lives as they otherwise see fit?
Why don’t we just arrest them all and charge them with the “crime” that put them on the No-Fly list to begin with?
BobMbx on May 5, 2010 at 6:11 PM
how long before the term “terrorist group” is applied to one’s political enemies?
unintended consequences are a bitch. don’t give this tool to the government. it WILL be used against us.
warhorse_03826 on May 5, 2010 at 6:11 PM
Maybe not. This could also apply to Aulaqi, the American-born Yemeni who keeps hanging out with al Quaeda.
But I still don’t see why people like that can’t simply be tried for treason. They get their day in court anyway, so why not get right to the nub of the matter?
RINO in Name Only on May 5, 2010 at 6:17 PM
Yes, this law is a crazy idea and very very unnecessary. I would presume the impetus is because Lieberman disagrees with mirandizing the Fazal? But would such a law even apply to him? After all, he only ATTEMPTED a terroristic act. Sure, you could say he was guilty of treason when he decided to train in Pakistan, but now we get into the realm of intent vs act which is a little too close to thought police for me.
In the end, though, he will cease to be a citizen when he dies in jail or is executed for committing treason in a time of war (if such a thing can be proven).
StubbleSpark on May 5, 2010 at 6:19 PM
This isn’t about prosecuting a Shahzad after a terrorist attack, this is about sending him packing after he comes back from taking a terrorist training course.
pedestrian on May 5, 2010 at 6:34 PM
I don’t think we want to create two classes of citizens, one entitled to more lenient treatment for no other reason than being born here. It’s un-American. Of course, if an individual was already an enemy of the US prior to naturalization, then his citizenship was obtained fraudulently and should be voided. But if he turned against us a long time afterward, then I don’t see why he should be treated differently than a natural born citizen. A traitor is a traitor.
Native-born or not, stripping such people of their citizenship pretty much ensure that they’ll be working against us for the rest of their lives. Where else could they end up in but hostile countries? Either execute them or lock them up for a long, long time.
year_of_the_dingo on May 5, 2010 at 6:40 PM
HAH ! Game over. Krauthammer supports the legislation to strip citizenship. Game, set, match.
Skandia Recluse on May 5, 2010 at 6:44 PM
Uh oh. Charles K. in favor of stripping citizenship?!
Yowza!
DrStock on May 5, 2010 at 6:48 PM
I am beginning to wonder if senility can be transmitted by sexual contact. Maybe McCain and Lieberman have been naughty together. Maybe even a threesome with Rubio.
No, such speculation is unkind and beneath me. Well, actually it’s not beneath me but it is unkind and jumping to conclusions. So let’s just rule that out and presume that McCain sneezed on Lieberman and Rubio and they contracted senility from him that way.
MB4 on May 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM
Before Shahzad set off his fireworks, he did nothing that would have warranted a long, long prison sentence. He should have been deported for simply attending a hostile training camp, which he did after becoming a citizen. What he does over there is likely to be a lot less dangerous than what he is able to accomplish over here.
People get treated according to what they do. Just because there is nowhere to deport someone who was born here doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do what is reasonable and effective for those who are not.
pedestrian on May 5, 2010 at 6:52 PM
Lieberman is showing solidarity with his brother in senility, John McCain.
MB4 on May 5, 2010 at 6:55 PM
That logic is questionable. It’s not like we can do whatever we want to foreigners. America does observe the Vienna convention and other treaties, after all. There are also international customary laws concerning human rights.
year_of_the_dingo on May 5, 2010 at 6:56 PM
Now who does that make me think of?
Oh yes, now I remember! I would say Hussein Obama bowing to the saudi king was a pledge of allegiance and then some.
MB4 on May 5, 2010 at 7:00 PM
Those who would trade liberty and the Bill of Rights for some possibility of some security deserve neither.
- Ben Franklin
MB4 on May 5, 2010 at 7:03 PM
This is nothing less than the totalitarian philosophy that the end justifies the means If ever there was a philosophy of government totally at war with that of the Founding Fathers, it is this one.
- Barry Goldwater
MB4 on May 5, 2010 at 7:07 PM
In Afghanistan the military is even talking about giving accommodations to those who don’t, yes don’t, attack Taliban and some want to deny American citizens as many of their rights as they can. This is like Alice in Wonderland.
MB4 on May 5, 2010 at 7:12 PM
If we deport the guy, the first thing he’ll do probably is run back to the training camp in Peshawar to learn to make better bombs. Then he’ll cross over to Afghanistan and blow up our soldiers. Or he’ll become a propaganda tool for the Taliban for recruiting similarly disgruntled Americans.
year_of_the_dingo on May 5, 2010 at 7:12 PM
great idea; America’s enemies have evolved, they are not confined to borders or countries, do not don a uniform; this fits the new reality
runner on May 5, 2010 at 8:11 PM
This entire argument seems silly. Joining a foreign army is cause to have your citizenship revoked. Terrorist groups are now the equivalent of a foreign army. There are lots of things to gt down on Liebs about. This isn’t one of them.
Buford Gooch on May 5, 2010 at 8:12 PM
The guy should never have been allowed to become a citizen in the first place. We are in a war for our very lives. We don’t need to bend over and allow any and all people from countries that are hotbeds of terrorism to come here, much less become citizens.
He was working for a foreign terror organization (perhaps even at the time he was being sworn), this is in direct violation of the oath of citizenship and he should be revoked. It would be like an American working with the Germans in WWII, he would have been aggressively questioned, tried and executed. That was a better system.
echosyst on May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM
I do not support this proposal. Allowing them to strip you of naturalized citizenship without a formal trial is bad news. I think though that in circumstances such as the current one, that a trial could be prepared and executed in less than 48 hours. He waged war against the United States of America less than two years after attaining his citizenship, it would be hard for him to claim that he had a change of heart in that short time, from loving America to loathing America. Once his citizenship is stripped, they can treat him like any other enemy combatant.
astonerii on May 5, 2010 at 8:28 PM
Actually, I like the idea. Citizenship comes with duties as well as rights, and one of those duties is loyalty. Someone joining a foreign terrorist organization at war with the United States has violated that duty and foresworn his allegiance. Stripping their citizenship only makes official what they’ve already done in their heart. If it’s too troubling to do it to natural-born citizens, it should at least be applied to the naturalized immigrant.
Of course, I don’t think it can be applied to Shahzad, no matter what, because it would be an ex post facto law.
irishspy on May 5, 2010 at 8:33 PM
I don’t think this has as much to do with interrogating someone as it does with deporting undesirables.
I wonder how many of the non-flying Imams would have been given Das Boot under this rule?
leereyno on May 5, 2010 at 9:30 PM
Lieberman has such a history of constructive law writing — NOT!
Caststeel on May 5, 2010 at 9:51 PM
Citizenship in America is precious, and the intentions of those from an Islamic backround who seek it need to be understood.
One who believes in Islam cannot believe in America.
They are mutally exclusive ideological concepts:
-Absolute fealty to a theocratic tyranny vs. belief in the secular Constitution and Bill of Rights.
When a Muslim takes the oath of U.S. citizenship, it is either:
A) a declaration of their apostasy, which is a death sentence for Muslims, or:
B) it is a calculated lie.
Which voids the oath.
Meaning: only Muslims who are apostates to Islam ~in effect non-Muslims, or former-Muslims~ are trustworthy as citizens.
If we were a serious nation, intent on surviving, we would require that anyone seeking U.S. citizenship would have to renounce Islam.
But, thus far, we are not.
Many more of our people will have to die before this fundamental, self-preservational awakening dawns.
profitsbeard on May 5, 2010 at 10:02 PM
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