Arizona House passes “Birther” bill
posted at 7:35 pm on April 21, 2010 by Allahpundit
Lay aside the legal issues, of which there are many, that this raises vis-a-vis whether states can set their own standards for enforcing federal constitutional requirements. There’s another question that’s much more basic. Namely, what would this possibly accomplish?
B. The national political party committee for a candidate for president for a party that is entitled to continued representation on the ballot shall provide to the secretary of state written notice of that political party’s nomination of its candidates for president and vice‑president. Within ten days after submittal of the names of the candidates, the national political party committee shall submit an affidavit of the presidential candidate in which the presidential candidate states the candidate’s citizenship and age and shall append to the affidavit documents that prove that the candidate is a natural born citizen, prove the candidate’s age and prove that the candidate meets the residency requirements for President of the United States as prescribed in article II, section 1, Constitution of the United States.
C. The secretary of state shall review the affidavit and other documents submitted by the national political party committee and, if the secretary of state has reasonable cause to believe that the candidate does not meet the citizenship, age and residency requirements prescribed by law, the secretary of state shall not place that candidate’s name on the ballot.
If you’re going to push a law as contentious as a Birther bill, knowing full well the type of beating you’ll take for it in the media, wouldn’t you want to at least make sure it achieves what you want it to achieve? Dave Weigel’s right: If this law passes and somehow holds up, The One will comply with it by providing the same Certification of Live Birth he produced two years ago. There’s no demand here for anything more specific than that — no request for an “original birth certificate” or attending obstetrician’s affidavit, etc., just “documents” that prove to a “reasonable” degree that the candidate was born in the good ol’ U.S. of A. And since the COLB is an official state document endorsed by Hawaii, there’s no reason why it wouldn’t meet a reasonableness test. Which makes me think this bill is even more purely political than it seems, designed to pander to Arizona Birthers while slyly doing nothing to advance the ball on their behalf.
But there’s an even more basic question. Let’s say the statute did demand “original” documents and that, for argument’s sake, the only thing in Hawaii’s files is an affidavit signed by Obama’s now-dead mother attesting that she gave birth to him at home. (Hawaii’s director of health has said publicly that she’s personally seen The One’s “original vital records.”) Why wouldn’t that be proof enough for Arizona if it’s proof enough for Hawaii? It’s a sworn statement and you can’t cross-examine the person who gave it, so barring any conflicting evidence, you’d have no reason to doubt that it’s true. Is Arizona going to kick a sitting president off the ballot because his mother gave birth to him at home, on American soil, with only family in attendance as witnesses? The only hope Birtherism has, apart from the emergence of bombshell evidence that eliminates the possibility of a Hawaiian birth, is that there are no vital records whatsoever in Hawaii’s files and that the entire department of health is engaged in some sort of grand conspiracy. Which, I’m sure, some people will eventually believe.
What I will say in the Birthers’ semi-defense is that I think there are actually two camps inside the movement. One is the group that simply wants Obama out of office as soon as possible and has latched onto this thin, exceedingly lame reed as a way of making it happen. The other is a group that’s grown curious about the fact that … no official enforcement mechanism for the Constitution’s natural-born requirement seems to exist, even though it’s a baseline requisite for the presidency. To them, it’s not an Obama issue so much as a “shouldn’t someone somewhere be authorized to check this sort of thing?” thing. In which case, there’s an easy way to depoliticize this while creating a legislative fix: Simply have Congress pass enforcement guidelines and provide that they don’t take effect until 2016. That way The One is exempt and this problem doesn’t recur in the future. Easy peasy.









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Hey,
I got an email from a pen pal in Puerto Rico; they changed the birth certificate form for the third time! I usually don’t reply to emails that are the “forward to your friends” type, but this caught my attention and I emailed back if this was a hoax or not.
He wrote no, this is a real deal…now if I need a new copy of my BC, he sent me the form to request it via .pdf. So guess what…now I have UP TO THREE different birth certificates:
1-THE ORIGINAL LONG before the hospital caught fire and everything burned has every detail, time of birth, dr., etc;
2-The current one that I have (no dr., no birth time, shorter and brown);
3-And now if I need any stupid thing to be processed in Puerto Rico, I have to request two forms of the NEW one (!!!), one for me and one for my son.
For any federal/local process to be followed trough, I need a birth certificate. For whatever reason, this is common ppwk over there. Obama has to produce anything and everything that the Federal law requires for him to be POTUS. That is asked for all of us. I dread the nuke thing, and the troops. It’s a heavy responsibility, almost a burden.
IF I am asked for college transcripts for continued education, federal job, etc., I see no reason why in the world that has to be classified info. After all, how many attorneys and Harvard (fancy college) people have diplomas and certificates plastered all over their offices? Even for renewed training, certification and licensing?
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 6:38 PM
Because a lady born the very next day has the LONG FORM. Google it.
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 6:43 PM
If you’re not racist and it’s no big deal anyway, then don’t worry about being mistaken for one.
Incidentally, I was not mistaken about you. I know whom you are.
The Race Card on April 22, 2010 at 6:53 PM
That is indeed the ONLY reason someone would bring it up.
Decider on April 22, 2010 at 7:11 PM
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but you haven’t answered my question. I asked for a simple link to a statutory definition or a SCOTUS ruling that defined “natural born citizen”.
Instead, you link a blog that asserts he wasn’t born in the US at all. Kim Wong Ark IS the most recent definition of birthright citizenship, and it is relevant to Obama’s situation, as BOTH (instead of just one) of his parents weren’t citizens, but since he was born in SFO, he was.
Listen, I don’t really like the guy either, but I can’t find any definite reason to find him ineligible for the office.
JeffWeimer on April 22, 2010 at 7:15 PM
I very much doubt it. But if I do what i’m thinking about doing, you will certainly know who I am.
I am thinking about posting on the web both of my birth certificates. My only concern is that they will be used against me somehow.
DiogenesLamp on April 22, 2010 at 7:22 PM
I gave you a link to Mario Apuzzo, the attorney currently litigating Obama’s qualifications in court.
The Wong Kim Ark case has nothing to do with “Natural Born Citizen” as meant regarding Qualifications for President.
There IS no Supreme court decision on this issue. (yet.) There IS, however, a statute by the US congress written in 1791 defining it. Is that good enough?
Apart from that, here is a more precise link to what “Natural Born Citizen” means regarding the qualifications for President.
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/04/founder-and-historian-david-ramsay.html
DiogenesLamp on April 22, 2010 at 7:28 PM
Lourdes showed upon us the light, with the post above.
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 7:28 PM
The main reason I want Zero to have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else is that we certainly wouldn’t want Zero to end up with a sense of entitlement.
viking01 on April 22, 2010 at 7:29 PM
The icky part of this; was this paid with campaign money, or from his “stash”?
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 7:40 PM
If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
MB4 on April 22, 2010 at 7:47 PM
Why is Obama’s ethnic lineage even relevant? If anything, I suspect he gained votes overall because he was African American.
The problem with Obama is not his race, but his radicalness. I think it’s entirely possible that some of that radical nature derives from not really seeing himself as just another American, but being more aware of his foreign background.
Regardless, Obama had a father from Kenya, who was a British subject, and spent part of his formative years in Indonesia. You don’t have to presume racism to understand why his not being a natural born citizen seems more plausible than any other president we’ve ever had. In fact, it seems dishonest, or at least deliberately obtuse, to claim that it must be attributed to racism.
As for people clamoring to amend the Constitution, there have always been people who wanted to do away with that requirement. Until they do, it’s still in there. Some people got carried away in their enthusiasm for Arnold. But unless you can show that those same people are now advocating against Obama, you can’t claim hypocrisy.
As for me, I thought at the time that Arnold showed promise, but I thought the chatter about changing the Constitution just to let him run for president was a lame idea. Arnold’s promise is long gone.
tom on April 22, 2010 at 7:55 PM
First, make a list of other former presidents with Kenyan fathers who spent the early parts of their life in foreign countries.
You will of course have to exclude any who became citizens at the same time the U.S. became a nation, since they’re covered under a different clause of the Constitution.
Now you have your point of comparison. Now you can start showing how much worse treatment Obama is getting than they are.
Until then, you have no point to make, and can be presumed stooopid and ignored.
tom on April 22, 2010 at 8:05 PM
You mentioned the 1791 law, where is it? If that is so, then we don’t need a SCOTUS ruling. Your link doesn’t talk about it, only about what a delegate (and another person named Emer de Vattel) thought – an appeal to authority, yet that authority doesn’t quite rise to the level of statute. We have to be precise here, and their thoughts would be instrumental in the construction of law, yet that law wasn’t built.
Quote from your link (emphasis mine):
Now, from all that, the slaughterhouse cases would tend to support your assertion – as Obama was born of one parent not under the jurisdiction of the US. But the subsequent finding, Elk v Wilkins, removed that distinction – and all subsequent cases reinforced elk, including Wong Kim Ark, which still is the most current case law on citizenship, at least according to your reference.
JeffWeimer on April 22, 2010 at 8:15 PM
hey Jeff…This might be an interesting read…
jerrytbg on April 22, 2010 at 8:28 PM
Dude, all of that still amounts to no more than an appeal to authority, not law. Common law and Natural Law may inform decisions and the creation of statutory law, but until it’s enshrined in actual law – part of the US code, it has no force. Appealing to the Law of Nations puts those laws over those of the US, and affects a specific US constitutional requirement. An international treaty isn’t law in the individual nations who enter into it unless they enact supporting or parallel legislation. I have yet to see the Us legislation that enacts “natural born citizen”.
JeffWeimer on April 22, 2010 at 8:58 PM
Waaiiittt a sec! I am listening to said debate and Obama said that Bush WANTED TO DRILL IN ALASKA????
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 9:15 PM
Would you agree that the US Constitution was written with the common man in mind?
I do, as do many others…simple and unambiguous in its construction …
Having said that, it’s my contention the Founders considered the phrase, Natural Born, common knowledge…
jerrytbg on April 22, 2010 at 9:42 PM
Yes, but it still has to be statutorily defined. Clarified in law. Or clarified by a court, as the Constitution IS our fount of law. “Natural Born Citizen” hasn’t been clarified to what Vattel thinks, yet (despite the many citations). The closest is commonly known as “citizen by birth”, which is currently considered interchangeable with “natural born”, and Wong Kim Ark is the latest word on that.
JeffWeimer on April 22, 2010 at 10:01 PM
Dude, Isaaic Newton was a brilliant Mathematician and Scientist. He developed all sorts of brilliant theories about the nature of force, gravity and motion.
The problem was he was wrong. Einstein was the first to realize that Isaaic Newton wasn’t describing everything accurately. Einsteins equations on relativity were developed from first principles.
The analogy, if you get it, is that while whatever the last pronouncement “Ex Cathedra” from the Supreme Court, unless you can demonstrate a derivation from first principles, is meaningless.
Your argument is “The Supreme court says it, I believe it, that settles it. ” (Fallacy of appeal to Authority)
It is my misfortune (or fortune) to be no respecter of persons, and I will not blindly accept something because a bunch of robes says so. (This is how Galileo must have felt about the Catholic Church.) Given how many mistakes they’ve made over the years, it is axiomatic that they are fallible. Apart from that, what one court gives us, another may very well take away.
No, you need to make your argument from first principles, not a misapplied interpretation of a case significantly different then the topic in question.
DiogenesLamp on April 22, 2010 at 10:13 PM
Yes, because they are THE authority in absence of statutory authority, according to the Constitution – the embodiment of first principles. Until they fix what you think is broken, we can only go on what they have determined.
Of course, you can (and have, by your very references) appeal to the authority of persons who have no constitutional authority whatsoever. Just because you think it, doesn’t make it so. By the constitution, what SCOTUS decides in absence of statute, is so.
JeffWeimer on April 22, 2010 at 10:35 PM
I am as confused as you are…two different hospitals, now a house? This is weird,to say the least. I know way back then “parteras” or women who had the expertise to deliver babies at home were somewhat common (if it was safe). I forgot about that. That home birth thing’s coming back.
Some chicks like family gatherings around that stuff. Heck no! Old wives remedies have been passed on to me from that generation to ease my last kid’s issues. That stuff works.
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 10:48 PM
NO REPLY FROM EARLIER POST? WHY?
ProudPalinFan on April 22, 2010 at 10:49 PM
I am doing no such thing. I am demonstrating to you the meaning of the phrase we are discussing by demonstrating its meaning from contemporary documents.
The fact that they might be the AUTHORITY does not make them correct. My argument (on this subtopic) consists of this point.
The Wong Kim Ark ruling does not apply because it does not decide the question of “Natural Born Citizen” per the meaning written in the constitution.
The Wong Kim Ark ruling is derived from the 14th amendment, and the 14th amendment’s establishment of the requirements for a person to be a “Citizen” which is not the same thing as a “Natural Born Citizen”.(which has a specific and different meaning.)
For this reason, *I* and others are trying to demonstrate the specific and different meaning by demonstrating the origin and manner in which the phrase was used via contemporaneous documents.
Until we establish the accurate MEANING of the phrase, No court ruling can be applied. The contemporary references are the only means possible of establishing this.
DiogenesLamp on April 23, 2010 at 12:06 AM
Please put yer thinking hat on. To put me in the same sentence with DR is a sign of illogic.
Schadenfreude on April 23, 2010 at 12:20 AM
earlier I cited 4 cases that specifically cited definitions for “natural born”(two before and two after the 14th took effect). The cases were not decisions regarding that clause, but used it to justify other findings. The Kim and Ark cases are about the qualifications to be a citizen, but the Ark case does attempt to equate both terms. The mere existence of different terms in the constitution proves the court erred in Law in this case. I find it funny that many progressives take comfort in stare decisis once they finally get a decision they like, but studiously ignore it when that decision reverses previous court rulings.
Fighton03 on April 23, 2010 at 12:50 AM
How would the Arizona law, had it been in effect for the last election, have stopped Obama from being President?
It would have stopped the birther controversy and given Obama a legitimacy he decided to forego, for some reason
A long form is no big deal. It is basically the longest version of the legal document. If Arizona had that law before, Obama would have had to put up, or shut up
I say it is a great law, a great step in the right direction towards restrablishing trust in the office of the Presidency –
which Obama himself decided to weaken, not by accident, but on purpose
entagor on April 23, 2010 at 2:05 AM
It sounds like you’re talking to the Leader about his behavior towards the Hulk.
Bizarro No. 1 on April 23, 2010 at 3:19 AM
That’s what I fully meant to say.
Bizarro No. 1 on April 23, 2010 at 3:24 AM
AZ is the smartest state in the land. They are using the stop provided in the constitution. Good for them. It is funny to watch people obsessed with the birth certificate, and to watch the media follow right along. The president’s birth in the United States in no way answers the eligibility question. Which is the only question to be on the table. Now if we can get people to understand that the Islamitization of the United states has begun, we might be on the right track.
shar61 on April 23, 2010 at 7:18 AM
A state cannot keep an individual off the ballot just because they want to. A state may refuse to run a candidate that may be in violation of the constitution. I would hope other states would follow suit.
shar61 on April 23, 2010 at 7:23 AM
I don’t know who this is to but I think it’s funny coming from someone with the screen name “Race Card”.
New Patriot on April 23, 2010 at 10:53 AM
The irony, that no one has mentioned, is that it is against federal law to inquire about a person’s heritage, age, racial background, etc…yet in the constitution it is mandatory for heritage, age…
Obama has shown his BC, it’s a done deal…move on, he is burying himself with his horrible leadership and decisions.
Concentrate on how poorly he is doing, and worry about how many angels are on the head of a pin later.
right2bright on April 23, 2010 at 10:59 AM
And Bush paid millions to keep his records secret, his personal records in the White House.
That’s what you do to stop the incessant “discovery process”.
He showed what was required by law…meanwhile he is destroying the country and Birthers are a distraction, they are fodder to keep from the real problems.
right2bright on April 23, 2010 at 11:03 AM
Thank you for your concern, but had people taken the “Birther” issue seriously (especially John McCain, who had the ability to force the issue.) we would not now be having to worry about how poorly he is doing.
DiogenesLamp on April 23, 2010 at 11:09 AM
It is up to the states’ electoral officials to determine who is qualified to be on the ballots for state and federal elections in each state. Prior to this pResident, I, like probably most citizens, thought that any candidate had to basically satisfy the requirements of an I9, like every employee in the U.S. must do. Color me shocked and surprised to find out noone was checking at all. Maybe Zero’s got a real BC somewhere and maybe he doesn’t. Anyone who doesn’t find it suspicious that he utterly refuses to produce anything significant about his past, including a real BC, is probably credulous enough to believe almost anything. I find that quite sad for them and for this nation. All this law does is demand that officials do the job they’re supposed to have been doing all along.
Ay Uaxe on April 23, 2010 at 2:39 PM
Yes, most people are only born in one place. But then again, most people only have one social security number (at most) too.
VekTor on April 23, 2010 at 5:20 PM
The Huffpo has an article whose (misguided) title is:
Arizona Birther Bill Is Unconstitutional, Legal Scholars Say
Dated: 04-15-2011
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/arizona-birthers-bill-is-unconstitutional_n_849871.html
——————————————————————————————————-
However …. (sorry “Legal Scholars”) …
From Wikipedia:
(Peace_and_Freedom_Party)
The PFP’s first national convention to nominate candidates for President and Vice President was held in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 17-August 18, 1968. Eldridge Cleaver was nominated for President over Richard C. “Dick” Gregory by a margin of 161.5 to 54. Cleaver, a convicted felon and Black Panther spokesman, was technically not eligible to run since he was only 34 years old at the time. Due to the needs of the state parties to collect signatures, the party fielded several different vice presidential nominees, including Chicago activist Peggy Terry, activist Rodolfo “Corky” Gonzales, radical economist Doug Dowd, and Judith Mage, who had been nominated at the national convention. Cleaver personally preferred Yippie leader Jerry Rubin. Gregory formed a competing Freedom and Peace party and ran separately. Two states (California and Utah) refused to list Cleaver on the ballot, although each state listed the Presidential Electors and candidates for Vice President (Terry in California and Gonzales in Utah).
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_and_Freedom_Party.
Conclusion:
States DO HAVE THE RIGHT AND POWER TO REMOVE OR DENY PLACEMENT ON BALLOTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE STATES.
It’s interesting to see how all of Obama’s minions are scattering and fluttering around like chickens with their heads cut off, worried about the effect of Arizona’s law. Why? Is it that Obama really doesn’t have a long-form birth
certificate? I guess not. Because why else would Obama’s followers even worry? Obama has a birth certificate. Right? Or, NOT.
If Obama does not qualify by refusing to send his long-form birth certificate to Arizona, then what does that say to the American public about who he really is, or isn’t? There are at least 13 states also considering a law in their states similar to Arizona’s law (that is supportive and upholds the Constitution of the United States); perhaps there will be at least 7 or more passed. Obama perhaps thinks he can do without those states; and with what people will think is the reason he does not send in his birth certificate.
AdrianS on April 16, 2011 at 7:48 AM
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