Federal judge rules National Day of Prayer unconstitutional

posted at 4:52 pm on April 15, 2010 by Allahpundit

Who wants to join me in a traditional Hot Air atheist high five for this important victory over a proclamation no one pays much attention to anyway?

Low five? Anyone?

Judge Crabb, an appointee of former President Jimmy Carter, wrote in her decision that ‘”some forms of ‘ceremonial deism,’ such as legislative prayer, do not violate the establishment clause.” But she said the National Day of Prayer goes too far.

“It goes beyond mere acknowledgment of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context,” she said. “In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience.”…

The suit was originally filed against then-President George W. Bush and members of his administration, but President Obama is now listed as the defendant because the president enforces the statute in question by issuing a proclamation each year declaring National Day of Prayer.

You’ll find the court’s opinion here. As with most judicial opinions these days, it’s at least three times longer than it needs to be, but I’ll snip the conclusion:

I understand that many may disagree with that conclusion and some may even view it as a criticism of prayer or those who pray. That is unfortunate. A determination that the government may not endorse a religious message is not a determination that the message itself is harmful, unimportant or undeserving of dissemination. Rather, it is part of the effort to “carry out the Founders’ plan of preserving religious liberty to the fullest extent possible in a pluralistic society.” McCreary County, 545 U.S. at 882 (O’Connor, J., concurring). The same law that prohibits the government from declaring a National Day of Prayer also prohibits it from declaring a National Day of Blasphemy.

It is important to clarify what this decision does not prohibit. Of course, “[n]o law prevents a [citizen] who is so inclined from praying” at any time. Wallace, 472 U.S. at 83-84 (O’Connor, J., concurring in the judgment). And religious groups remain free to “organize a privately sponsored [prayer event] if they desire the company of likeminded” citizens. Lee, 505 U.S. at 629 (Souter, J., concurring). The President too remains free to discuss his own views on prayer. Van Orden, 545 U.S. at 723 (Stevens, J., dissenting). The only issue decided in this case is that the federal government may not endorse prayer in a statute as it has in § 119.

I assume this year’s NDOP, scheduled for May 6, will proceed as scheduled since this case is bound to be on appeal at the time. If the appeal fails, they’ll re-write the statute so that in lieu of a national prayer day we’ll have a national “prayer is great” day or something where it’s slightly more ambiguous whether people are being nudged to participate. Incidentally, there was an idiotic rumor circulating this morning, seemingly out of the blue, that The One had already canceled the NPOD. (It’s not true, of course. Last year he eschewed any White House service, but the proclamation remains intact.) I’m used to dumb Obama rumors by now, but this one was especially dumb for the same reason that that rumor that he’d banned fishing or whatever was especially dumb — even if you thought he was secretly itching to do it, it’d be the purest political insanity to actually follow through. Not in a million years would he pick that fight since he’d lose much, much more by doing it than he’d gain. As for his decision to cancel the WH service, I think we know the score on that point and that’s all I’m going to say about it. Wink.

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I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (June 25, 1819)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM

While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice. He was no disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. He did not believe in his divinity and was not a member of his Church.
“He was at first a writing Infidel of the school of Paine and Volney, and afterwards a talking Infidel of the school of Parker and Channing….
“If the Churches had grown cold, if the Christians had taken a stand aloof, that instant the Union would have perished.” Mr. Lincoln regulated his religious manifestations accordingly. He declared frequently that he would do anything to save the Union, and among the many things he did was the partial concealment of his individual religious opinions. Is this a blot upon his fame? Or shall we all agree that it was a conscientious and patriotic sacrifice?
- The New York World (about 1875), quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 138-39)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:22 PM

I don’t see what that proves regarding Lincoln. Being anti-clerical is hardly being “anti-Jesus”. And the fact that it’s second-hand by someone who obviously has an agenda also makes it a little suspect.

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:27 PM

And?

It’s no question that Jefferson thought the priesthood strangled freedoms of people – it’s not like he did have precedent to cite! Of course, to say that he hate religion and eschewed it’s virtues would be to ignore his own daughters’ upbringing (in France particularly).

I like Jefferson, he was both a great thinker and writer, but also kept his ownership of his own mind close to his chest – so much so that people today can argue and spin him in whatever way they desire. He covered so much canvas with honest intellectual thought that he gives ammo to everyone. A bold man.

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:31 PM

National Day of Blasphemy

Why can\’t the government declare this? If the majority wants it, why not? I\’d like to see which elected officials support that one ;)Another case of the minority (atheists) winning over the majority. I\’m confident that the founding fathers did not imagine we would turn out this way.

kerrhome on April 15, 2010 at 5:31 PM

Jefferson, perhaps the single greatest influence for religious freedom, based on his legislation in Virginia, himself called for a day of fast in Virginia.

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:17 PM

Ah, but he was just foreshadowing Michelle Obama’s war on obesity./

Gotta run out – I’ll respond to MB4 later.

Buy Danish on April 15, 2010 at 5:31 PM

So now we’ll call it “National Crabb Day”.

multiuseless on April 15, 2010 at 5:31 PM

I bet you she would find “National Gaia Day” completely legal.

amerpundit on April 15, 2010 at 5:29 PM

already have one, Earth Day is its name.

There is a war of the gods on display, with all the varios pagan gods allied in Tyranical fashion against the Triune God.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:32 PM

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:32 PM

Ah, but he was just foreshadowing Michelle Obama’s war on obesity./

Buy Danish on April 15, 2010 at 5:31 PM

Ha! I can’t top this, so I yield the floor to you:)

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:32 PM

While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice. He was no disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. He did not believe in his divinity and was not a member of his Church.
“He was at first a writing Infidel of the school of Paine and Volney, and afterwards a talking Infidel of the school of Parker and Channing….
“If the Churches had grown cold, if the Christians had taken a stand aloof, that instant the Union would have perished.” Mr. Lincoln regulated his religious manifestations accordingly. He declared frequently that he would do anything to save the Union, and among the many things he did was the partial concealment of his individual religious opinions. Is this a blot upon his fame? Or shall we all agree that it was a conscientious and patriotic sacrifice?
- The New York World (about 1875), quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 138-39)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:22 PM
I don’t see what that proves regarding Lincoln. Being anti-clerical is hardly being “anti-Jesus”. And the fact that it’s second-hand by someone who obviously has an agenda also makes it a little suspect.

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM

And to think that the Gospels are maligned by secularists for that very reason… ;)

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:32 PM

Of course, “[n]o law prevents a [citizen] who is so inclined from praying” at any time. Wallace, 472 U.S. at 83-84 (O’Connor, J., concurring in the judgment). And religious groups remain free to “organize a privately sponsored [prayer event] if they desire the company of likeminded” citizens.

Wow, that was big of her. What are you all complaining about?

Judge Crabb, an appointee of former President Jimmy Carter

All you need to know.

peski on April 15, 2010 at 5:32 PM

A determination that the government may not endorse a religious message is not a determination that the message itself is harmful, unimportant or undeserving of dissemination. Rather, it is part of the effort to “carry out the Founders’ plan of preserving religious liberty to the fullest extent possible in a pluralistic society.

What an absolutely hilrious quote! To argue that it was the “Founder’s plan” to prohibit government from endorsing a “religious message” is laughable when what those “founders” actually wrote was:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; . . . “

Anyone see the problem with ruling that having the “PRESIDENT” issue a “PROCLAMATION” declaring a national “DAY” of prayer is somehow equivalent to CONGRESS making a LAW to ESTABLISH a RELIGION??

Hmm, nothing in that Constitution about Presidents making declarations, no mention of “religious messages”, nothing in there about . . . etc. etc. etc. etc.

Not to mention the hilarity of trying to claim such a ruling would comport with the founder’s intent!!

LOLOLOL!!111elventy11

Sheesh – judges are almost as bad an congress people!

Fatal on April 15, 2010 at 5:33 PM

No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:33 PM

Someday we may be reading posts from PaulPundit, the puny regard the devil has for his advocates is no match for Gods advocates. Father Corapi comes to mind.

fourdeucer on April 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights.
- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM

No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:33 PM

If only politicians today could make such intellegent statements.

Scrappy on April 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are also unconstitutional, since they’re named after old gods, right? I’m still undecided on Sunday and Monday.

January, March, and June are also unconstitutional. I don’t remember the sources of the names for February, April, and May, but they probably are as well. Heck, Roman emperors were worshipped as gods, weren’t they? That makes July and August unconstitutional.

malclave on April 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM

carbon_footprint on April 15, 2010 at 5:24 PM

Oh, we’re talking about different lgf moments, then. The Killgore HotAir incident is well known.

Christien on April 15, 2010 at 5:36 PM

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM

Lincoln liked Macbeth and he liked the book of Job. He identified with both I think :)

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:36 PM

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (June 25, 1819)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM

Doesn’t make you a non-believer.

I’ve long ago foregone any “religious” trappings and most of my friends (active going baptists, evangelicals, etc) think I’ve gone agnostic and my non-religious friends think I’m more with them than the “religious nuts” my friends are. My spirituality, my relationship with God is personal to me and no one else. I’m sure if I died you could easily find people on both sides of the spectrum to prove I was an atheist or a devoutly religious man. I’d argue that gives me a true, intellectual, walk with God that I’m not suprised our previous leaders took.

The fact of the matter is these men invoked the name of God, in public, as part of office, as part of their official duties… and now this woman takes that right away from us because she knows better than the guy who actually wrote the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

Skywise on April 15, 2010 at 5:39 PM

I don’t see what that proves regarding Lincoln. Being anti-clerical is hardly being “anti-Jesus”. And the fact that it’s second-hand by someone who obviously has an agenda also makes it a little suspect.

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM

You missed something.

“While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice. He was no disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. He did not believe in his divinity and was not a member of his Church.”

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:40 PM

District Judge Barbara B. Crabb finds for the plaintiffs, the Freedom from Religion Foundation, against the defendant, President Barack Hussein Obama, and declares the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional.

God help us (and I mean that literally), you can’t make this stuff up.

Tres Angelas on April 15, 2010 at 5:40 PM

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=98

Franklin’s Appeal for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:40 PM

No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779)

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:33 PM

Until today.

Skywise on April 15, 2010 at 5:41 PM

Rights of the minority trampling the rights of the majority. AWESOME!!!!

That’s your new freedom, people. Thanks, fiddytooers!

Red Cloud on April 15, 2010 at 5:41 PM

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:22 PM

Hmm.

Why should there not be a patient confidence in the ultimate justice of the people? Is there any better or equal hope in the world? In our present differences, is either party without faith of being in the right? If the Almighty Ruler of Nations, with His eternal truth and justice, be on your side of the North, or on yours of the South, that truth and that justice will surely prevail by the judgment of this great tribunal of the American people.

Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope–fervently do we pray–that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether”

With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan–to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.

we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

unclesmrgol on April 15, 2010 at 5:41 PM

Not in a million years would he pick that fight since he’d lose much, much more by doing it than he’d gain.

Healthcare? Bueller?

single stack on April 15, 2010 at 5:42 PM

National Day of Prayer….unconstitutional

Meatless Mondays…. ??????

macncheez on April 15, 2010 at 5:43 PM

You missed something.

“While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice. He was no disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. He did not believe in his divinity and was not a member of his Church.”

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:40 PM

Do we have that in Lincoln’s own words? Otherwise I don’t know what there is to miss.

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:44 PM

You missed something.

“While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice. He was no disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. He did not believe in his divinity and was not a member of his Church.”

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:40 PM

That’s what Steiner says… show me that from Lincoln’s own diaries or letters. Steiner has them… no?

Here’s something from Lincoln’s own words:

One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the Southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union, even by war; while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope—fervently do we pray—that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether”

Skywise on April 15, 2010 at 5:44 PM

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:22 PM

Not religious, my foot.

The Almighty has His own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

Lincoln’s second inaugural address.

And here’s an even better quote from his first:

My countrymen, one and all, think calmly and well, upon this whole subject. Nothing valuable can be lost by taking time. If there be an object to hurry any of you, in hot haste, to a step which you would never take deliberately, that object will be frustrated by taking time; but no good object can be frustrated by it. Such of you as are now dissatisfied, still have the old Constitution unimpaired, and, on the sensitive point, the laws of your own framing under it; while the new administration will have no immediate power, if it would, to change either. If it were admitted that you who are dissatisfied, hold the right side in the dispute, there still is no single good reason for precipitate action. Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him, who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty.

Tell me a million times that Lincoln was no Christian and I’ll tell you a million and one that I don’t buy it.

Ryan Anthony on April 15, 2010 at 5:44 PM

As long as Obama is president, every day is National Day of Prayer.

Christien on April 15, 2010 at 5:45 PM

This just seems really pointless. What if we made it, National Think Positive Thoughts or Pray Day?

Esthier on April 15, 2010 at 5:45 PM

You’re a real f-n jackass Allah …
Congrats, Im now taking HotAir off my reading list….
Doogiesd on April 15, 2010 at 5:25 PM

Lol you’re real easy

blatantblue on April 15, 2010 at 5:45 PM

MB4, both sides can pick Jefferson quotes to bolster arguments.

A clear understanding of his stance needs to look at his context (established churches in many countries, and in some US states. CT springs to mind).

cs89 on April 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM

The Founders are “Unconstitutional”

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=3847

Proclamation – Thanksgiving Day – 1777
Saturday, November 1, 1777

Forasmuch as it is the indispensable duty of all men to adore the superintending providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with gratitude their obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther blessings as they stand in need of; and it having pleased him in his abundant mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable bounties of his common providence, but also smile upon us in the prosecution of a just and necessary war, for the defense and establishment of our unalienable rights and liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a measure to prosper the means used for the support of our troops and to crown our arms with most signal success:

It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart Thursday, the 18th day of December next, for solemn thanksgiving and praise; that with one heart and one voice the good people may express the grateful feelings of their hearts, and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor; and that together with their sincere acknowledgments and offerings, they may join the penitent confession of their manifold sins, whereby they had forfeited every favor, and their humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance; that it may please him graciously to afford his blessings on the governments of these states respectively, and prosper the public council of the whole; to inspire our commanders both by land and sea, and all under them, with that wisdom and fortitude which may render them fit instruments, under the providence of Almighty God, to secure for these United States the greatest of all blessings, independence and peace; that it may please him to prosper the trade and manufactures of the people and the labor of the husbandman, that our land may yield its increase; to take schools and seminaries of education, so necessary for cultivating the principles of true liberty, virtue and piety, under his nurturing hand, and to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

And it is further recommended, that servile labor, and such recreation as, though at other times innocent, may be unbecoming the purpose of this appointment, be omitted on so solemn an occasion.

Thanksgiving, a Holiday established to worship the Trinitarian God of the Bible in Calvinistic Fashion.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are also unconstitutional, since they’re named after old gods, right? I’m still undecided on Sunday and Monday.

January, March, and June are also unconstitutional. I don’t remember the sources of the names for February, April, and May, but they probably are as well. Heck, Roman emperors were worshipped as gods, weren’t they? That makes July and August unconstitutional.

malclave on April 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM

And since they were all named by our Congr- -oh, right… nevermind.

Heresy of Cain on April 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM

Anyone who applauds this ruling officially forfeits the ability to complain about anything the Obama administration does that is unconstitutional – including stripping the Second Amendment and Obamacare.

The Constitution, and the actions of the Founding Fathers, is clear: religion expressed by public officials and in public is not a violation of the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits the establishment of an official religion or government infringement on the rights of people and churches to worship freely.

That freedom does not come with conditions or contingencies. Celebrate this all you want, but when your rights are taken away, don’t come crying to us.

Moreover, the total lack of recognition and appreciation for the historical fact religion played a very significant role in the found and formation of this nation – and all of western civilization – is astounding.

englishqueen01 on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

And since they were all named by our Congr- -oh, right… nevermind.

Heresy of Cain on April 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM

Doesn’t matter who named them. The government should not be allowed to use them in any official or semi-official matters.

malclave on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

Tell me a million times that Lincoln was no Christian and I’ll tell you a million and one that I don’t buy it.

Ryan Anthony on April 15, 2010 at 5:44 PM

In order to believe that Abraham Lincoln was a Christian, one must close the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force, extreme force.

One could make a much better argument that Barack Hussein Obama is a Christian, much better, maybe be not a very godd one, but a much better one.

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

Our federal government really ought to leave prayer alone as a corporate enterprise. Silence is preferable to a practice began with deceitful intent and carried out with all the sincerity of a used car salesman.

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 15, 2010 at 5:50 PM

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=3584

Proclamation – Thanksgiving Day – 1789

Proclamation – Thanksgiving Day – 1789

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me “to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine.

G. Washington.

Look at that, George Washington immediately tearing up the Constitution given Atheist/Tyrant logic

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:51 PM

Earthquakes all over the World, Volcanoes erupting, Fireballs in the sky over the MidWest, Obama abandoning Israel,……
“Okay, send down some Locusts. Do you think they will ever figure it out?”-GOD

Glad I’m not the only one to notice…If Damascus gets waxed or a Russian/Arab attack on Israel gets wiped out, I’m grabbing my ramen and ammo and heading for the hills…

Battlecruiser-operational on April 15, 2010 at 5:51 PM

Bad reasoning/argument judge!

A national day of “blasphemy” would be just fine with me. I don’t mind uttering blasphemy in regards to Allah, Aphrodite, Shiva, Buddah, etc. Just like our media and entertainment networks utter Blasphemy against God on pretty much an every day basis.

::shrugs::

Fatal on April 15, 2010 at 5:52 PM

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 5:14 PM

In making up my mind as to what Mr. Lincoln really believed, I do not take into consideration the evidence of unnamed persons or the contents of anonymous letters; I take the testimony of those who knew and loved him, of those to whom he opened his heart and to whom he spoke in the freedom of perfect confidence.”
- Colonel Robert Green Ingersoll, “The Religious Belief of Abraham Lincoln,” (May 28, 1896)

….
MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:22 PM

Col Ingersoll was the famous atheist known for giving speeches in support of atheism, pulling out a stopwatch, and daring God to kill him in the next 60 seconds. When God declined to perform on demand, he would then tout this as proof that there was no God.

IOW, he was a kook.

But I’m sure we should listen to his opinion of what Abraham Lincoln really believed.

tom on April 15, 2010 at 5:52 PM

Thanksgiving, a Holiday established to worship the Trinitarian God of the Bible in Calvinistic Fashion massacre and subjugation of indigenous peoples.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM

FIFY!

…

PS. *fine*

/sarc

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 15, 2010 at 5:52 PM

In order to believe that Abraham Lincoln was a Christian, one must close the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force, extreme force.

One could make a much better argument that Barack Hussein Obama is a Christian, much better, maybe be not a very godd one, but a much better one.

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

So Lincoln disavowed everything he thought made this country strong and resolute and then said the opposite of how he felt in all his major speeches?

Yeah… sounds like Obama…

Skywise on April 15, 2010 at 5:53 PM

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=4082

Abraham Lincolns Thanksgiving Proclomation

President Abraham Lincoln’s Proclamation of Thanksgiving

Issued, October 3, 1863

The year that is drawing towards its close has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God.

In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to invite and provoke the aggressions of foreign States, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict; while that theater has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union.

The needful diversions of wealth and strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defense have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship. The axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battlefield; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

No human counsel hath devised, nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.

It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people; I do, therefore, invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer to our beneficent Father, who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that, while offering up the ascriptions justly due to him that, for such singular deliverances and blessings; they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes, to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility, and union.

In testimony whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the city of Washington this third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the independence of the United States the eighty-eighth.

Abraham Lincoln.

That athiest Lincoln, celebrating as President the Triune God of the Bible.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:54 PM

But I’m sure we should listen to his opinion of what Abraham Lincoln really believed.

tom on April 15, 2010 at 5:52 PM

Precisely.

We have Lincoln’s public writings, his private writings, everyone a person needs to get a sense of the man. It would be unfair to his memory to let his legacy be re-written by an man with an agenda to use him for his own purposes.

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

everyone should be everything. Sorry

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

I] appoint . . . a day of public Thanksgiving to Almighty God . . . to [ask] Him that He would . . . pour out His Holy Spirit on all ministers of the Gospel; that He would . . . spread the light of Christian knowledge through the remotest corners of the earth; . . . and that He would establish these United States upon the basis of religion and virtue.

25 GOVERNOR THOMAS JEFFERSON, 1779

Thomas Jefferson, Theo-crat Gov. of Virginia

jp on April 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

everyone should be everything. Sorry

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

Buddhist! ;)

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

Doesn’t matter who named them. The government should not be allowed to use them in any official or semi-official matters.

malclave on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

Because? Saying the use of an established language (and this is to say nothing of the whole “shall make now law part) is necessarily respecting a religion isn’t so much a leap in logic as it is a transcontinental flight.

Now, that isn’t to say there aren’t good points to be made on this subject – I think the Christmas holiday one was damn fine, actually – but this… this isn’t it, IMO.

Heresy of Cain on April 15, 2010 at 5:58 PM

TheUnrepentantGeek – that made me laugh out loud. Nice.

Spirit of 1776 on April 15, 2010 at 5:59 PM

Oh, we’re talking about different lgf moments, then. The Killgore HotAir incident is well known.

Christien on April 15, 2010 at 5:36 PM

Thanks for the link! That must have been during my absence from here. I usually take off a few months during the summer.

carbon_footprint on April 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM

Oh, and for MB4 and to provide Context for Lincoln’s Thanksgiving Day Proclomations, here’s a quote for you:

When I left Springfield [Illinois, to assume the Presidency], I asked the people to pray for me. I was not a Christian. When I buried my son, the severest trial of my life, I was not a Christian. But when I went to Gettysburg and saw the graves of thousands of our soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ.

- Lincoln

22. Abraham Lincoln, The Lincoln Memorial: Album-Immortelles. Osborn H. Oldroyd, editor (New York: G.W. Carleton & Co, 1882) p. 366, Reply to an Illinois Clergyman.

More goodies here:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=17984#FN22

jp on April 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM

If we rename it the National Day of Namaz
will this judge still find it uncontitutional ?

macncheez on April 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM

Why is God We Trust permissible on the national currency?

rickyricardo on April 15, 2010 at 6:03 PM

Because? Saying the use of an established language (and this is to say nothing of the whole “shall make now law part) is necessarily respecting a religion isn’t so much a leap in logic as it is a transcontinental flight.

Because by using those terms, Congress is de facto supporting religion. Every time they schedule something on a Friday, they’re shoving the goddess Frigga in my face. Presidential inaugurations in January? Obviously a thinly-disguised, government mandated worship of Janus, Roman god of doors.

Likewise, there are a lot of place names that are unconstitutional. Every time I get something from the County of Los Angeles, the government is forcing me to acknowledge angels.

by the way, I hope everyone recognizes this as the hyperbole it’s meant to be

malclave on April 15, 2010 at 6:04 PM

Why is God We Trust permissible on the national currency?

rickyricardo on April 15, 2010 at 6:03 PM

Because they haven’t quite gotten the font right yet for the new motto of “In Obama We Hope… Spare Some Change?”

malclave on April 15, 2010 at 6:06 PM

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=3727

The “Architect of the Constitution” – James Madison Proclamation – Humiliation and Prayer – 1812

Whereas the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses, have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the People of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of pubic Humiliation, and Prayer; and whereas such a recommendation will enable the several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which he has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign power to involve these United States;

I do therefore recommend the third Thursday in August next, as a convenient day to be set apart for the devout purposes of rendering to the Sovereign of the Universe and the Benefactor of mankind, the public homage due to his holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasures; of seeking His merciful forgiveness, His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and especially of offering fervent supplications, that in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American People under his peculiar care and protection; that he would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require others to do to them; and finally, that , turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of Peace.

Given at Washington the 9th day of July, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twelve.

James Madison.

By the President.

James Monroe,

Secretary of State

Atheist/Leftist/Secularist do not have a leg to stand on.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 6:08 PM

When I left Springfield [Illinois, to assume the Presidency], I asked the people to pray for me. I was not a Christian. When I buried my son, the severest trial of my life, I was not a Christian. But when I went to Gettysburg and saw the graves of thousands of our soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ.

– Lincoln

22. Abraham Lincoln, The Lincoln Memorial: Album-Immortelles. Osborn H. Oldroyd, editor (New York: G.W. Carleton & Co, 1882) p. 366, Reply to an Illinois Clergyman.

More goodies here:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=17984#FN22

jp on April 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM

Beautiful quote.
Great link.
Thank you.
Remember that President Lincoln was killed on this very day in history in 1865!
_——
This ruling is a travesty and I fully expect it to be appealed and overturned by SCOTUS.

Jenfidel on April 15, 2010 at 6:12 PM

What? This is a bit of a stretch of the meaning of “establishment” even for me. I do not think that this prayer day was specific to any religion. Almost all religions have a part where believers pray to one or more gods.

What harm is done when someone prays? I think that the plaintiff in this case does not have standing. Ring a bell? No one so far has had “standing” to challenge BHO’s eligibility to be POTUS. but they have standing to challenge a religious observance? Give me a damn break.

Pelayo on April 15, 2010 at 6:14 PM

Is it the “National Day of Southern Baptists” or the “National Day of Catholicism”? NO.

Therefore, it does not establish a religion, per the Constitution, and does not violate it. All religions pray and I’ve even hear atheists slip and use the term pray “I’m praying for rain.”

This judge is a liberal idiot. What freaking harm is there in a national day to do what 90% of Americans recognize as harmless . . .

PastorJon on April 15, 2010 at 6:14 PM

they don’t have a leg to stand on as far as facts go, when all the Founders, and see above with Madison widely considered the Architect of the Constitution, were yearly doing “National Proclomations of Prayer and Humility”, and in explicitly Christian terms at that.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM

The government hates competition so it’s only fitting that this news comes out on National Day of $ubmission.

JimRich on April 15, 2010 at 6:18 PM

The judge just wanted to clear up the calender for the “All Hail Obowma Day”…

Seven Percent Solution on April 15, 2010 at 6:19 PM

What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree.
– Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Mary Todd Lincoln in William Herndon’s Religion of Lincoln

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
– Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis

Mr. Lincoln had no hope, and no faith, in the usual acceptation of those words.”
– Mary Todd Lincoln, to Colonel Ward H Lamon, in his Life of Abraham Lincoln

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:20 PM

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:20 PM

see above Lincoln quote and more at Wall builders.

He was a Christian, converted to a true one while in office.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 6:21 PM

I work for Kentucky State Government. i work on several projects that are 100% funded by Federal grant money. I pray daily to do the right thing for the people of Kentucky…WHILE ON THE CLOCK! **GASP**

Sorry…ain’t no Federal Judge in the country gonna take my Jesus out of my workplace.

every day is the National Day of Prayer.

Pilgrim on April 15, 2010 at 6:21 PM

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

I always respect what you say. Can you explain why you take the words of another over Lincoln’s own writings as evidence of his true beliefs?

csdeven on April 15, 2010 at 6:22 PM

Excuse me for being a little bit dipped in humor here. But what I fail to understand is:

Why do people who claim to not believe in God, devote so much time, energy, and effort into arguing against something they swear isn’t there.

I can’t figure that one out.

Hal on April 15, 2010 at 6:24 PM

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:20 PM
see above Lincoln quote and more at Wall builders.

He was a Christian, converted to a true one while in office.

jp on April 15, 2010 at 6:21 PM
My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.
– Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J S Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln’s death

He must have been converted right before his death then

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:25 PM

I’m guessing the National Day of Prayer will be replaced with the…..National Day of Hope.

Obama did make Sept 11 a “Volunteer” day instead of a Memorial Day.

portlandon on April 15, 2010 at 6:26 PM

– Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J S Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln’s death

He must have been converted right before his death then

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:25 PM

Objection. Hearsay.

Sustained.

portlandon on April 15, 2010 at 6:27 PM

Sorry AP,no high fives from this atheist.I see absolutely no problem with a National Day of Prayer.
The judge was dead wrong in her opinion that it”serves no secular function”.Prayer does indeed serve the function of giving believers time to contemplate on their feelings and therefore can prevent them from engaging in unhealthy and/or harmful activities.The real effect(if not the purpose) of prayer is much the same as the calming effect of meditation.Since there is no particular Religion involved,it does not conflict with seperation of church and state.One can pray to whatever god one believes in,and nobody is saying that a person has to pray at all,if he is not a believer.

DDT on April 15, 2010 at 6:28 PM

I’m sure everyone here would be in favor of “National Renounce Your Deity Day”

Scrappy on April 15, 2010 at 6:28 PM

It won’t be long now folks!

Inanemergencydial on April 15, 2010 at 6:29 PM

Another idiot Dem judge. No surprise. Their religion of secular humanism lets them think that they have the wisdom of a god and are better than the rest of us, including the Founding Fathers. That’s also proven by their belief in a “living constitution.” They make me puke.

mydh12 on April 15, 2010 at 6:31 PM

Mr. Lincoln had no hope, and no faith, in the usual acceptation of those words.”
– Mary Todd Lincoln, to Colonel Ward H Lamon, in his Life of Abraham Lincoln

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:20 PM

At its best, this is pure revisionism; at its worst, it is a blatantly misleading characterization of Lincoln’s faith.

Lincoln argued, from an inherently biblical point of view, that slavery is immoral.

Richard Romano on April 15, 2010 at 6:31 PM

So we can have all these other “days” honoring the Earth, athletes, celebrities, small towns, wildlife, etc and we can’t have a Prayer Day? Atheists aren’t required to participate just like I can leave all my lights on, throw my recyclables in the trash, and take long showers on Earth Day.

LtBarnwell02 on April 15, 2010 at 6:33 PM

I am sure ObaMao will be kneeling and facing Mecca when he prays on the National Day of Prayer.

Sporty1946 on April 15, 2010 at 6:34 PM

Another idiot Dem judge. No surprise. Their religion of secular humanism lets them think that they have the wisdom of a god and are better than the rest of us, including the Founding Fathers. That’s also proven by their belief in a “living constitution.” They make me puke.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I’m amazed (and appalled) that anyone who calls him/herself a conservative would high five when another’s rights are stripped. I thought that was something the left did…

englishqueen01 on April 15, 2010 at 6:36 PM

Anyone see the problem with ruling that having the “PRESIDENT” issue a “PROCLAMATION” declaring a national “DAY” of prayer is somehow equivalent to CONGRESS making a LAW to ESTABLISH a RELIGION??
Fatal on April 15, 2010 at 5:33 PM

Don’t you know that “congress” is a synonym for school board, president, county courthouse, or anything else those fair-minded atheists says it means?

Akzed on April 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM

It won’t be long now folks!
Inanemergencydial on April 15, 2010 at 6:29 PM

Until what?

Akzed on April 15, 2010 at 6:45 PM

As for his decision to cancel the WH service, I think we know the score on that point and that’s all I’m going to say about it. Wink.

You know, I feel bad for you, AP. All the politicians in your camp are liberal a-holes.

Emily M. on April 15, 2010 at 6:46 PM

Squid- gotta love precedent. yes sometimes it is insane. idiot.

CWforFreedom on April 15, 2010 at 6:49 PM

At its best, this is pure revisionism; at its worst, it is a blatantly misleading characterization of Lincoln’s faith.

Lincoln argued, from an inherently biblical point of view, that slavery is immoral.

Richard Romano on April 15, 2010 at 6:31 PM

He also argued that blacks are not the equal of whites.
He was a big supporter of the black codes in Illinois so I guess your point is that he would say anything to get a vote.

historian on April 15, 2010 at 6:49 PM

I think this just shows who the bitter clingers are…you atheists are the biggest downers on the planet…

StevefromMKE on April 15, 2010 at 6:53 PM

Funny how the courts can strike down cases of federal over-reach on something as inconsequential as naming a day, but find nothing wrong with Congress determining how and when you can express your opinion on a candidate for office, telling banks which executives to fire or how much to pay them, or forcing citizens to buy insurance they don’t want.

Socratease on April 15, 2010 at 6:56 PM

What do the personal beliefs of Abraham Lincoln have to do with the Constitutionality (or lack thereof) of the National Day of Prayer?

aengus on April 15, 2010 at 6:57 PM

Allah: You still have time to come to your senses. I’ll pray for you.

New Patriot on April 15, 2010 at 6:58 PM

As long as Obama is president, every day is National Day of Prayer.

Christien on April 15, 2010 at 5:45 PM

I love this!
Yes and Amen!

Jenfidel on April 15, 2010 at 7:07 PM

Judges place their hand on a bible when they are sworn in to uphold the constitution. Does that mean anything to this judge or president for that matter. Is it all for show? To make Americans believe they are honest, they mean it.

It think that oath has an unwritten five second rule.

meMC on April 15, 2010 at 7:09 PM

Judges place their hand on a bible when they are sworn in to uphold the constitution. Does that mean anything to this judge or president for that matter. Is it all for show? To make Americans believe they are honest, they mean it.

It think that oath has an unwritten five second rule.

meMC on April 15, 2010 at 7:09 PM

So now only christians can be judges?

Scrappy on April 15, 2010 at 7:12 PM

One more comment for me on this thread while it is still legal, God Bless You All

historian on April 15, 2010 at 7:20 PM

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:35 PM

Jefferson attended Christian church services in the Capitol building as both Vice President and President. No, he was not a Christian in the sense that he believed in Christ’s divinity, but he was not antipathetic to public religion. And, of course, Jefferson was not the only Founding Father–Patrick Henry, Benjamin Rush, John Jay, Roger Sherman, Jedediah Morse, and a couple hundred others–they count, too, and they had distinct ideas about America as a Christian nation.

DrMagnolias on April 15, 2010 at 7:21 PM

In order to believe that Abraham Lincoln was a Christian, one must close the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force, extreme force.

One could make a much better argument that Barack Hussein Obama is a Christian, much better, maybe be not a very godd one, but a much better one.

MB4 on April 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

Lincoln’s like Shakespeare. Given the lack of direct statements of specific belief or non-belief, people project their own belief or unbelief on them. Shakespeare’s been called an atheist, an agnostic, a high-church Anglican and a Catholic.

ddrintn on April 15, 2010 at 7:23 PM

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