Find a better way to argue about income taxes, please
posted at 5:13 pm on April 11, 2010 by CK MacLeod
I hate the following argument, and I tend to think that conservatives are fools to make too much of it. Mark Steyn:
And yet for an increasing number of Americans, tax season is like baseball season: It’s a spectator sport. According to the Tax Policy Center, for the year 2009, 47 percent of U.S. households will pay no federal income tax. Obviously, many of them pay other kinds of taxes — state tax, property tax, cigarette tax. But at a time of massive increases in federal spending, half the country is effectively making no contribution to it, whether it’s national defense or vital stimulus funding to pump monkeys in North Carolina full of cocaine (true, seriously, but don’t ask me why). Half a decade back, it was just under 40 percent who paid no federal income tax; now it’s just under 50 percent.
Such observations recently led Doctor Zero to attempt a thought experiment about excluding “net tax-consumers” from the voting franchise. See, according to the Doctor and Mr. Steyn, or at least the line of thinking with which they’re publicly experimenting, everyone who isn’t (currently) paying any federal income tax is virtually a free rider, a mere spectator, and is no longer adequately invested in public affairs to be consulted – or, worse, is merely in the game to steal more and more from authentically productive citizens.
Tho if you really want to set my blood a-boilin’, and want to risk turning many a potential Tea Partier back into a Democrat, and want to conjure the image of conservatives as confoundingly out of touch, just try abbreviating the above argument – as I’ve heard assorted pundits, politicos, and sinecured think tankers do – to “soon a majority of Americans won’t be paying any taxes.” Even quickly amending that to “no federal taxes” or “no federal income taxes” will at best lower the ol’ blood temperature to “rapid” rather than “boiling off.”
On the face of it, on the level of the real world shorthand takeaway, the argument seems to put conservatives on the side of higher taxes for some number between 0 to 100% of the poorer half of the population, and according to some species of a “fairness” justification. You guys sure that’s where we want to be? At the same time, it ignores some of the primary causes of this creeping re-structuring of the income tax revenue base – e.g., an aging population, increasingly also an under- and unemployed population.
Most significantly to the average irresponsible free riding spectator and thief undeserving of the vote, the argument rather completely ignores, or flagrantly minimizes, all of the taxes and fees that lower income people pay, usually under an extremely regressive structure. Just so everyone’s clear on exactly what that means: the poorer you are, the more they hurt, to the point of hurting a lot.
I’m not just talking about the taxes and fees that Steyn concedes before he gets to his “but” sentence. In a time when the federal government has routinely raided entitlement revenue to fund ongoing expenditures, to the point of defunding the programs, how are Social Security and Medicare taxes anything other than a flat income tax (double-sized for the self-employed) that’s reverse means-tested – since, by virtue of the cut-off (ca. $100k these days), high income people don’t pay into the program at anywhere near the same overall rate that lower income people do? (Atención! – AP - maybe this can help explain those “mystifying” survey results.)
Here’s my thought hypothesis: The Dems opened themselves to means-testing when arguing for the Obama tax rebate, suggesting it would help people burdened by those FICA taxes. Oopsie! Only conservatives were supposed to be evil enough to question the premises of our sacrosanct “equal” “social insurance” contributions. How about dropping the whole insurance charade – it’s always been one – eliminating the cut-off, means-testing both contributions and benefits (including taxes on the latter), putting in a realistic retirement age and cost-of-living-adjustment, then getting back to me when you’ve calculated the impacts of various rates on unfunded obligations? (I’m really curious about this one – but I still have to do my own $&*^@! taxes.)
Now back on the rest of our mere spectator’s burden: Residents of relatively high tax states will typically be paying a second, completely regressive tax in the form of sales taxes, usually pushing 10%, biting every day, sometimes several times a day. Most will pay a third set of usually highly regressive fees for government services on the municipal level and higher – often through utility fees that include within them additional charges from that federal government that we’re supposedly uninvolved with. And relatively low income people are of course the ones hardest hit by gasoline taxes, which will typically include both a federal and a state component. We poor people have also been paying ever higher, noticeably higher rates for everything from college tuition, to smokes, to postage – fed + state + local, directly and indirectly, you think we have the time to sort out which goes to which goes to which? We can hardly stand even to look!
I’m also aware that, one way or another, even before the possible imposition of a new national sales tax (VAT) – for which Mr. Steyn and Doctor Zero seem to be providing a moral argument, regardless of whatever they believe about a VAT on its own terms – all levels of government and indeed the economy are interwoven, via unfunded mandates and regulatory burdens, and increasingly by the massive overhang of federal debt.
I’m guessing that people like me will be paying disproportionately for it all, for that last one especially – possibly through inflation/monetization, possibly by some other means.
Partly as a result of ’08-’09 fiscal crisis, my main business (collectibles sales over the internet) was devastated for a few months: A chart of my turnover would look a lot like the stock market, and the loss of business will be reflected in a lower income tax “contribution” than in prior years. Though I haven’t yet tallied up the results – I may not finish doing my $&*^@! tax return until around 4:50 PM PST, April 15, 2010 – I already know that that I’m feeling pretty darn overtaxed already, even before I calculate whatever small portion of my total tax burden is called “federal income taxes” by people like Mr. Steyn, whose argument (regardless of what Mr. Steyn himself thinks about the big picture) seems to say that I need to send even more money that I don’t have to the government, so that I can feel more invested in what it does.
Trust me, I feel quite adequately “invested” in government policy. I’ve got plenty of skin in the game. Shed more every day. Don’t have much extra skin left at all, matter of fact. Whatever conservatives have in mind with this argument, I cannot see why they think it will get them somewhere to seem to be whining for still more flesh.
cross-posted at Zombie Contentions
This post was promoted from GreenRoom to HotAir.com.
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I’m waiting to see how many rich folks off themselves to save the Estate taxes…
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:02 PM
Bulk of them are Census workers (Part Time).
Dire Straits on April 11, 2010 at 9:02 PM
Why? It grows quite well outside in most of the country, and I doubt you’d be hassled unless you attempted to sell it.
Crawford on April 11, 2010 at 9:03 PM
Tobacco seed is photoblastic. It needs to be sown on the surface of the soil. Tobacco is usually propagated in controlled environments like greenhouse and growth chambers.
I started mine in a growth chamber and transplanted it into my crappy Missouri clay soil and it grew to almost 7 feet.
Inanemergencydial on April 11, 2010 at 9:06 PM
Only property owners should vote…old, old school but that’s my 2-cents.
Dick Turpin on April 11, 2010 at 9:08 PM
Just lookin’ for the elusive tax equity.
0% as a Fed rate at such a low gross income total hardly seems equitable, outside of France.
There is a number out there somewhere.
I hope this helps.
Shivas Irons on April 11, 2010 at 9:11 PM
Texas Nick 77 on April 11, 2010 at 8:42 PM
I think that’s an excellent idea.
BradSchwartze on April 11, 2010 at 9:13 PM
And The Beat Goes On.
The grocery store’s the super mart, uh huh
Little girls still break their hearts, uh huh
And men still keep on marching off to war
Electrically they keep a baseball score
Chorus
Grandmas sit in chairs and reminisce
Boys keep chasing girls to get a kiss
The cars keep going faster all the time
Bums still cry “hey buddy, have you got a dime”
Chorus
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:13 PM
Complete, total disgust!
Bye. I’m sure you don’t want the door to hit me in the ass.
Chewy the Lab on April 11, 2010 at 9:15 PM
I must have missed the part where Davy Crockett advocated, seriously or “unseriously, explicitly or implicitly, that low income people should have, or “maybe” should have, no vote, or less votes than others with a lot more money.
MB4 on April 11, 2010 at 9:15 PM
If Obama’s medical rationing will provide or avoid critical medical care based on the person’s worth to the “greater good of the society ”
whats wrong with
voting rights for only those who contribute to the tax kitty and not the parasites
macncheez on April 11, 2010 at 9:16 PM
Too Late to Apologize.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:17 PM
The right of all animals to vote is equal but the right of some animals to vote is more equal than the right of other animals to vote.
Cheshire Cat on April 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM
If it’s a doggy-door, it’s guaranteed. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM
If you listened to Limbaugh, he had a caller who makes about $50k per year who literally paid in about $850 in payroll taxes, and received a refund of over $2,000.
Yes, sir, there are a buttload of people who *pay no federal income taxes*, and many of them get more back than they had withheld from their checks in the first place.
Midas on April 11, 2010 at 9:20 PM
Are you against legal tax avoidance? You can always refuse to claim spouse and children.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:23 PM
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 8:50 PM
Yes, those very poor people do vote against their own economic interest (HA!) by voting for those sales tax increases, Mill Levy Overrides, and bond issues. I’m just saying that those votes for those increases in state and local taxes should be treated as a contribution to the general welfare just as much as a payment of Federal Income Tax is.
And here’s where CK’s argument falls flat: As long as conservatives control debate on tax issues, conservatives generally will never have to address the issue of poorer folks paying more as a percentage of income in FICA and state/local taxes. Leftists and Progressives can bang on that drum all they want, but they’ll generally be as successful as…oh…Republicans and conservatives claiming that because they have black friends, they do not push positions that can be construed as anti-African American.
BradSchwartze on April 11, 2010 at 9:23 PM
So GOOD to see you posting here. =)
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:25 PM
I thought that was what Steyn was saying but somehow CK comes up with some other analysis. From there it has just “left the rails”.
Dire Straits on April 11, 2010 at 9:25 PM
Many poor people have a sense of pride and, do not want handouts. You just don’t hear them interviewed on the news.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:27 PM
Oh my. This is like talking to a wall. Are you saying that the poor in states with low sales taxes and property taxes are on an equal footing as those in other states? Please. Federal is and will never be the same as a state tax. That you refuse to accept that point means we’re done with our discussion.
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:27 PM
Nice strawman, bub. That’s not the scenario in question, and I suspect you damn well know it. ;)
Midas on April 11, 2010 at 9:28 PM
You must have heard Warren Buffett state that his secretary pays a higher percentage of income in taxes than he does. Straw Man indeed.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:29 PM
A democracy will always degenerate into a parasite vs host dichotomy. As long as there are politicians who crave power, it will always be this way. The safeguard against this has always been that the host will vote with his feet. That can no longer happen as ( none dare speak its name ) global Marxism takes hold.
Buddahpundit on April 11, 2010 at 9:30 PM
BTW–Most poor people don’t even realize how much they pay in state sales taxes. It’s not like you have to fill out a 1040 for it. But they DO understand income taxes. Unless they work for the Obama Administration and then they’ve probably never seen a 1040 form in their life poor OR rich.
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:31 PM
So, you’re suggesting that the 47% that don’t pay federal income taxes are actually *wealthy* people with good tax planners, less active ‘income’ upon which to pay ‘income tax’, etc? Because that’s the only way in which *this* strawman has anything to do with the conversation whatsoever.
Midas on April 11, 2010 at 9:32 PM
Nice post.
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:32 PM
I’m saying that all federal taxes count. Taxes are fungible from whatever source. Are you being obtuse, intentionally?
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:33 PM
There’s a difference between rich and ultra rich.
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:34 PM
Everybody pays too many taxes on everything.
Life is not simply federal income taxes.
This meme is irritatingly simplistic and not a winning argument.
It is the whiny obverse blame-ism of the Dems.
And just as useless.
profitsbeard on April 11, 2010 at 9:36 PM
BTW, Midas, are you alleging that the wealthy do not count? Buffett made clear what, the truly wealthy have known for years. The rich get loopholes, the less rich get the bill. There should be NO difference between earned, and unearned income. Hedge fund managers pay less tax as a percentage of income because, their income is in stock appreciation. Sheltered under capital gains instead of earned income, which it is.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:38 PM
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:27 PM
If I were to ask Jon Coupal of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Assn. if the Federal Tax burden was more onerous than the California state/local tax burden, I’m pretty sure he’d tell me that the Federal tax burden is a little LESS burdensome. Regardless of how “progressive” the Federal Income Tax is.
Again, I’m just saying people of all income levels feel some pain point when it comes to taxation.
BradSchwartze on April 11, 2010 at 9:39 PM
Some work at Goldman Sachs and loot us, others wonder why we are being screwed.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:39 PM
profitsbeard on April 11, 2010 at 9:36 PM
What, you don’t like the idea of having street cred on the tax issue, and thus being able to control debate on it?
BradSchwartze on April 11, 2010 at 9:41 PM
eh…no
Knott Buyinit on April 11, 2010 at 9:41 PM
Sultry Beauty on April 11, 2010 at 9:31 PM
Absolutely true. And, for once, we conservatives should pat ourselves on the back for being able to control tax debate to such a degree that the average poor person understands the 1040 more than they understand getting charged sales tax on their food purchases.
BradSchwartze on April 11, 2010 at 9:43 PM
You, Mr. Macleod, go right ahead and join the Dems. No one would miss you. What a long socialistic, European, modern-world diatribe. Why is it that you guest writers feel like writing 3X longer anything than Ed and AP? You could have said all that in one longer phrase.
See India. 5% only pay taxes. The rest vote for the handouts, every time. It’s the ‘largest’ ‘democracy’ in the world.
The more are on the dole, the more will vote for more dole. If the economy doesn’t improve, it will got to 57% in no time…
What a sad interpretation. We are more doomed than what I thought. Lambs walk to the slaughter. You don’t deserve to live free, not at all.
Schadenfreude on April 11, 2010 at 9:47 PM
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:29 PM
I prefer to watch what Warren Buffet DOES, as opposed to what he says. He would never cut his throat by advocating, even in polite dinner conversation, the notion that Capital Gains should be taxed at the same tiered rate that income from a paycheck is.
BradSchwartze on April 11, 2010 at 9:47 PM
Here in Phoenix, they just raised sales tax on food to 10.5%. Extreme enough, yet?
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:50 PM
There is nothing ‘polite’ about the theft of money from us to, help the rich.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 9:51 PM
Define property? If you own an old rusty motorcycle – that’s property. A laptop computer is “property”.
Now … if you are talking about REAL ESTATE PROPERTY … well then …
Define “owner”?
Is an owner someone who pays a mortgage? Strictly speaking – no he isn’t. The bank actually “owns” the house I live in and also – the house that I rent out to a tenant.
So how many voters would we have if we eliminated all the people who have a mortgage?
Incredibly – we may have people who own businesses who employ 10′s of employees – but still don’t actually “own” their property … who can’t vote.
But the unemployed redneck in the double wide down the block on an acre of land that his daddy “willed” to him … will be able to vote.
Careful what you wish for.
HondaV65 on April 11, 2010 at 9:56 PM
Perhaps a compromise, based on an idea I’ve had rattling around my brain for a while. Everyone gets a minimum of one vote, and additional votes based on federal income tax paid. But the distribution is not directly proportional, but instead powers of 10. $0 income tax paid up to $99, you get one vote. $100 paid, thats 10^2, so you get 2 votes. At $1,000 paid, that’s 10^3, 3 votes. $10,000 gets four, and so on.
Later,
Cicero418 on April 11, 2010 at 10:04 PM
Absolutely correct, sir.
ROCnPhilly on April 11, 2010 at 10:09 PM
The right of all animals to vote is equal but the right of some animals to vote is more equal than the right of some other animals to vote, unless it is much more equal.
Cheshire Cat on April 11, 2010 at 10:15 PM
Nobody will ever steal again, nobody will ever grumble again over his taxes, the quarreling and biting and jealousy which were normal features of life in the days of the old tax system will all but disappear.
Cheshire Cat on April 11, 2010 at 10:21 PM
Somehow it seemed as though the country had grown richer without making the occupants themselves any richer, except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs. But the Horses could still smoke as much as they wanted as long as they paid most of the taxes.
Cheshire Cat on April 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM
To pay income taxes you first need to have an income. And to have an income one generally needs a — job. The Republican’s should start talking about jobs. High paying, private sector jobs. This has been their feet of clay and their indifference toward jobs and the working class is what lost them the elections on 11/7/06 and 11/4/08 – make no mistake. DD
Darvin Dowdy on April 11, 2010 at 10:32 PM
And, so it goes…
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 10:39 PM
ZeroHedge.
But, by all means; let’s argue tax rates.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 10:41 PM
You say that like you’re blaming him for promoting his own post from the Green Room to the front page. Is that how it works around here?
If not, maybe your ire is more appropriately directed at someone else.
RD on April 11, 2010 at 10:44 PM
There is a local talk show host who is convinced that nobody who makes $35k or less pays federal taxes. I told him I had some health problems, so I made only $30k in 2008 & I paid $10k in total taxes, including fed taxes but not including sales tax and fees. He still does not think I paid enough fed income tax, even though I only had about $15k to live on after deducting sales tax and medical bills!
I lost my job in 2009 & made even less than $30k. I just did my taxes & the news is not much better. Thanks for the article, CK, +100%
This is the reason we conservatives are labeled uncompassionate. I joined the Tea Party because I don’t want the wealthy to pay more taxes. Why can’t wealthy conservatives support less taxes for poor conservatives? Leave the class warfare to the libs – they do it sooo well.
HellCat on April 11, 2010 at 10:47 PM
Macleod needs to be bumped off Hot Air.
His kind of ignorance can’t be tolerated on a responsible conservative site.
notagool on April 11, 2010 at 10:47 PM
Steyn never argued that only those who pay federal income tax should be allowed to vote. Why would you place him among those who have?
snaggletoothie on April 11, 2010 at 10:55 PM
Lots of arguments made on both sides here, good points
allmost. One thing I always think of this time of year is this: My total income tax burden for the year (most of it is covered by withholding) is ~$9-10K on a $55-60K paycheck. If I’m paying that much, what the big boys are paying is unimaginable. Even with lots of deductions.bikermailman on April 11, 2010 at 11:12 PM
You kids on the left keep peddling this anecdotal myth, but I would put my anecdotal experience against yours any day. In fact I would fully support a tax payer funded audit of the so-called “poor” in this country, but you know that you guys would never support this.
Just like your homeless myths and environmental myths you don’t really give a fuuck about the truth, you simply want to maintain these hollywood fairy tales to promote your agenda.
ClassicCon on April 11, 2010 at 11:13 PM
ClassicCon on April 11, 2010 at 11:13 PM
Given my job, I see every day the moochers among us. Many get their housing cheap or free. Regular checks from the federal government. Checks from the state and local agencies. Utility assistance. Cheap or free healthcare. So on and on. Yet many drink beer all day, cigarette butts in the yard, cars newer than mine, big screen tvs, 2-7 cell phones in the household, cable, and so forth. And when I come walking up, they want to know where their check is.
bikermailman on April 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM
“Kids on the left” So, your arguing that everyone is a greedy s.o.b. ? I guess that includes you. Take your classicCON and shove it up yours, sideways. I’m poor but, do not want your so-called charity. You probably want some quickie sex too. My agenda is personal responsibility. Yours, obviously is a big F U to everyone not as great as you are.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM
How much does “Turbo Tax Timmy” pay for his housing? How about Nancy Pelosi?
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:23 PM
It’s too bad you have to work a route in a neighborhood that’s full of criminals. Using that logic, since some rich are criminals, they all are. Rich defined as, making more than you. As a mail-delivery person, do you have a defined benefit retirement plan, or a 401k? Do you get retiree healthcare until your eligible for medicare? Your a union worker employed by the government and, you claim moral high-ground?
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:27 PM
More Steyn, less MacLeod, please.
SukieTawdry on April 11, 2010 at 11:27 PM
BTW, those checks being mailed keep you employed. If your so bitter, quit and get a ‘good’ job that allows you to keep your distance from those criminals. QUIT ! I double-dog dare you.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:29 PM
While your at it biker, don’t take any money from us poor when you retire until you hit 67 years old. You should have saved up enough money on your own or, are you into welfare for thee?
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM
Gosh, I don’t want to tax anybody more. I want government to cost less.
The reason I don’t buy into a VAT is that it is the kind of tax over which there is absolutely no popular supervision. Once it gets instituted, it just keeps going up, and constitutes the justification for postponing government’s fiscal reckoning.
Less government. That’s the ticket.
J.E. Dyer on April 11, 2010 at 11:36 PM
But the key phrase you are missing there is federal government policy…
So, don’t talk about federal income taxes when arguing about federal income taxes and the programs they fund… Are you trying to not make sense?
Oh yeah, and stop with this “seems to say” BS. If that isn’t a big red flag indicator of a straw man argument I don’t know what is.
Whomever promoted this drivel is an idiot.
Smiles on April 11, 2010 at 11:44 PM
Everything is being manipulated on Wall Street now. Resistance is futile.
ZeroHedge
LBMA Gold Manipulation Story Hits The Mainstream
Tyler Durden’s picture
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 04/11/2010 20:42 -0700
First, the gold manipulation story that Zero Hedge and select others have been beating a drum over for months, had finally made inroads into the broader public, first via the Huffington Post, and earlier today via the NY Post. It has also gone global thanks to the Melbourne Herald Sun, the largest newspaper in Australia, whose column by John Beveridge “More bull than bullion” is reproduced below, courtesy of the GATA. Most importantly, Zero Hedge will soon disclose some very stirring details on the manipulated gold market courtesy of yet another whistleblower, and add a new twist in the greatest precious meals fraud saga of all time. Stay tuned.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:47 PM
A little “poetic licence” on CK’s part perhaps, as Steyn provided a foundation for coming to that conclusion although he did not actually outright preach it himself. He probably doesn’t believe it, or “most of him” doesn’t anyway, and if he does he is too smart to actually say it.
semloh on April 11, 2010 at 11:49 PM
With fraud taking place on a massive scale, by all means; let’s worry about Federal income taxes. If nothing else, it distracts from the rape going on now.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:49 PM
Wow…someone is filled with hate…
Let’s see…Timmy and Nancy, no clue who pays for their housing.
I don’t recall saying all were criminals.
I get a small pension (~31%) + the gov’t equivalent of the 401K, the TSP. When I retire, I can piggyback on the insurance, at my cost. As for the union thing, if you think I’m a fan of the union, you haven’t read what I’ve repeatedly written here over time.
Oh, and a big chunk of those ‘checks’ come in the form of debit cards these days.
Not sure what money I’d be taking from the poor, before or after 67. Sure not going to be SS, that’s a big black hole that isn’t going to be there for any of us. I’m planning for other means of support. Perhaps you read the story of the grasshopper and the ant? It’s all of us ants who are going to be forced to support the grasshoppers, if you hadn’t noticed.
Put down the haterade, fer cryin’ out loud. I can almost see the spittle flying from your lips from here.
bikermailman on April 11, 2010 at 11:50 PM
To criticize another is to invite comparison. CK criticizing a Mark Steyn piece forces me to compare CK’s analytical skills and prose with Steyn’s.
This doesn’t end well for CK.
pugwriter on April 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM
Starve the beast is the only option for survival. We thought we could grow our way out of our problems. Look at revenues after the Reagan and Bush tax cuts. Went through the roof. The Congresscritters on both sides simply took that higher revenue and spent more and more. Politicians simply cannot be trusted to do the responsible thing if they get more money.
bikermailman on April 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM
Your quite correct, to a point, about my being upset. I’m no income, receive NOTHING from the gov’t as aid and have people extrapolating that all non-income producers are criminals that do not deserve to vote. I currently live off my savings while attending a community college at 49 years old and, dislike being called a leftist.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:55 PM
I’m not going to bash CK overall, even if I disagree with this particular post. Good points are made, and he writes some durned good stuff overall. This might be a surprise to El Jefe above, but I know I have off days. This appears to be an issue close to CK’s heart, and there’s nothing wrong with back and forthing an issue, hashing things out.
bikermailman on April 11, 2010 at 11:55 PM
BTW: I paid almost $2000 in Federal taxes last year with $0, income. At least some middle-class 25 year old gets S-CHIP at my expense.
Jeff2161 on April 11, 2010 at 11:58 PM
Jeff, I appreciate your situation, and apologize if I left the impression that I see all my customers as I described. You are to be applauded for not going on the dole, it has to be tough, you have the attitude that most Americans had for a couple of centuries. Such fortitude will see you through, and you have my wishes that you do so. As for the voting issue, I stayed away from that one. I can see how people are frustrated with current matters, but taking people’s voting rights away just makes me squeamish as he11.
bikermailman on April 11, 2010 at 11:59 PM
You have a good point there, bikermailman. I’ve been pointing out for years that Reagan’s approach was not one of starving the beast, but of increasing the efficiency and yield of the beast’s food source.
It looks like harsh reality may well step in and starve the beast for us. I live near LA, and every day we’re hearing about more public sector layoffs and service cuts, because the place is just running out of money. Tax receipts have plummeted in a way not seen before, and the state is drowning in red ink and has nothing to step in with.
BTW, it doesn’t look to me like there’s a lot of point in engaging Jeff 2161. I’m not even sure what his point is. Geithner did indeed cheat on his taxes, but Mark Steyn’s original point was that people in Geithner’s tax bracket actually owe taxes, whereas people in lower ones either don’t or get welfare checks back with the “earned income credit.” Cheating — breaking the law — is a separate issue. Most people in Geithner’s bracket do pay their taxes.
And, as you point out, still we have an incredible and exponentially expanding federal debt.
J.E. Dyer on April 12, 2010 at 12:05 AM
And Obama has better analytical skills and prose than Palin, at least most of the time when Mr. TelePrompter is plugged in.
KentAllard on April 12, 2010 at 12:07 AM
Sorry, you aren’t paying your fair share if you have $0 federal tax liability. As a tax preparer I know that more than 50% of the wage earners are not paying any federal taxes…..and the way you are arguing that you pay more than enough through the other types of taxes that are levied on all of us and that it takes a bigger bite out of you as a percentage of your gross income….i don’t buy it. In addition to not paying federal income taxes, those wage earners are getting up to > $4000 in EIC…..I would agree with your premise that maybe it would be okay that 50% of the wage earners could get away with paying no federal tax IF Congress took away the EIC…..Congress would be swimming in money. However, I strongly feel that everyone should pay something in federal income tax to incentivize the wage earners to pay more attention to what Congress is spending “their ‘skin’ in the game” on….Why don’t you suggest a tax bracket that starts at 1%? Currrently the lowest tax bracket is 10% and 50% of the wage earners aren’t even paying that much.
rebl on April 12, 2010 at 12:21 AM
Just feeling under siege, I guess. Go in peace, always.
Jeff2161 on April 12, 2010 at 12:35 AM
BTW, it doesn’t look to me like there’s a lot of point in engaging Jeff 2161. I’m not even sure what his point is. Geithner did indeed cheat on his taxes, but Mark Steyn’s original point was that people in Geithner’s tax bracket actually owe taxes, whereas people in lower ones either don’t or get welfare checks back with the “earned income credit.” Cheating — breaking the law — is a separate issue. Most people in Geithner’s bracket do pay their taxes.
And, as you point out, still we have an incredible and exponentially expanding federal debt.
J.E. Dyer on April 12, 2010 at 12:05 AM
Jeff2161 on April 12, 2010 at 12:37 AM
When someone suggests that, I have NO right to vote because my income is too low… It more than bothers me. Income Average over the last 30 years and, I have certainly paid enough already.
Jeff2161 on April 12, 2010 at 12:39 AM
I am one of the producers that has just about all I can stand. The ‘gubmint’ should not be in the charity business. Old folks and indigent folks got along by family or church organizations long before the ‘gubmint’ decided that it wanted a piece of the action, circa 1967. LBJ was probably one of the most corrupt Presidents in history, but people want to remember him as a helper. the only helping he did was for himself and his friends. There were a lot of leftists getting extremely rich off the conflict in SE Asia(Vietnam). LBJ lied to expand the war and then wouldn’t let the generals run the war. He directed everything from the WH. Oh, if you think I really thin that LBJ ranks right after Jimmah, you are correct. LBJ will always be the one that sold out the country for his friends.
belad on April 12, 2010 at 12:55 AM
I almost forgot, I am going to quit producing, so how are they going to collect taxes from me when I quit?
belad on April 12, 2010 at 12:56 AM
Property has always meant real estate, and I totally agree; only citizens who own real estate, and hence are stuck paying property taxes, should have the vote.
Bubba Redneck on April 12, 2010 at 1:16 AM
Again
Why punish people by removing their voting ability for the sins of the federal government?
blatantblue on April 12, 2010 at 1:18 AM
Again
Why should a carpenter, plumber, deli owner, soldier, FBI agent, house painter, fisherman, or teacher get less votes than Michael Moore? Because that’s what you will get when some of the ideas that have been proposed by the commentariat on this website are realized.
blatantblue on April 12, 2010 at 1:19 AM
If the Republican party ever tried some sort of RIDICULOUS plan to eliminate voting for millions of Americans, they would formally condemn the party, as well as the conservative movement to decades of failure and misery.
What’s more important, the country, and fighting for it?
Or your little clever concoctions for voting and elections?
blatantblue on April 12, 2010 at 1:26 AM
The solution — The GOP should double down on the VAT with a proposal that it only takes effect when the 16th amendment is repealed.
Add in some fine print to the VAT make it so there can’t be any special interest exemptions without 2/3 majority and any such exemption must be a single issue, one page bill, without earmarks or other payoff attachments.
drfredc on April 12, 2010 at 1:38 AM
For Steyn and others: The danger of this popular meme is what got Margaret Thatcher tossed out of office. Equalizing the amount of one type of tax at a ruinously high level caused riots in England. The article also points out that Reagan didn’t really reduce the size of government, either — he increased prosperity through economic growth and the beast got fed more.
The psychology of equal taxation will become positive only after rates are slashed to where the poor can afford to pay them. In this climate of recession and over-taxation, any attempt to equalize by making more people pay will backfire on conservatives. Leftists will continue their ruinous spending and conservatives will get the blame.
Feedie on April 12, 2010 at 1:47 AM
I’m curious. What is the “pay nothing in taxes” figure set at? I just saw some kid’s federal tax forms (made under $20K), with no offsets and his tax bill was just under $1K.
Sure it’s only about 5% of gross income, but it’s not nothing.
jack herman on April 12, 2010 at 1:59 AM
Any government that did that would be a government to fight against, and overthrow, not support. It would mean another civil war. A rather short civil war, I would think, as such a government would be taken down rather quickly.
MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:05 AM
CK MacLeod – Tis the season where some become more stressed out than most, unless you’re filling for an extension. You, for all intents and purposes, must be feeling it greatly by the tenor of this essay. I recommend that you finish doing your taxes first so that monkey gets off your back, and then peruse these noted private citizens articles once again. I know your political views are to left of mine a smidge, but you’ll find that the goal of these mentioned articles in your essay is simply for smaller government. That is the crucial point.
Americannodash on April 12, 2010 at 2:05 AM
The VAT is looming nightmare. It’s a hidden tax, even more hidden than federal withholding. A national sales tax is better, but only after income tax is abolished first.
It’s a very tempting argument that comes from intractable problems — our permanent ruling class and the ignorant and corrupt electorate. The voters aren’t all to blame, though; the two parties are successful at rigging the system for incumbents and insiders.
Another variation, mentioned by Ann Coulter, is the female vote. In the aggregate, women have different agendas than men, but any man who promotes ditching it better put on a suit of armor — especially the bottom half.
Feedie on April 12, 2010 at 2:06 AM
How does one ease the across the board tax burden on the citizenry if an entity that has the authority to remove money from the private sector as they deem fit, or appropriated tolerated? How do we discontinue this growth trend if there isn’t a call for a smaller entity during such a time, abrogation? I must also note here that this entity has a proven track record of corruption, waste and abuse of those ever increasing acquisitions, yes? Why must the growth of this entity be arrested, and shown that it’s on a course to incrementaly bring about our economic ruin, or outright collapse of this capitalistic system we always thought would be there? One only has to look to some of the individual states who are presently so deep in the red to a point of insolvency to see our possible national economic future.
Americannodash on April 12, 2010 at 2:10 AM
Property tax ought to be the most hated tax. It forces people to pay rent on what they supposedly own.
Feedie on April 12, 2010 at 2:13 AM
I think John Stuart Mills was a much better political scientist than you. The fact is that we need to keep the free-loaders out of voting. I hate the fact that our country passed a Constitutional Amendment banning the Poll Tax.
Ah, the destruction of private property. One of the planks of the Communist Manifesto.
Tim Burton on April 12, 2010 at 2:20 AM
To take another tact on the matter of percentage wise of those who are, and who are not paying income taxes today versus our past, what has changed? Why is it that the majority of poor remain poor? Even though by this entities ill conceived good intentions of helping the poor they are keeping them poor at the same time? Does the poor really think if they are taken off the tax rolls they’ll become richer? I wouldn’t think that’s the reality. They won’t because the opportunities are reduced coming from the middle and higher income brackets who own a business and have to scale back their enterprises because of higher taxation that has been dictated from this ever growing government entity. We all know what is happening here under the guise of this entities propaganda premise of the so called good intentions of helping them out. They’re just keeping them where they’re at so to speak, and creating more in the process. This entity, whose budget is based, and spent, has no accountable need to meet, or a what is referred to in the private sector as a “bottom line or show a profit.” They now, [the government] are the ones who’re seeing those job opportunities rise while the poor, or not quite below the poverty level remain there. They’re being perpetually deceived, or cajoled to be satisfied unsatisfactorily by means of doled out entitlements from an accommodating entity. This entity, in its ever desire to expand its parameters appears to have an unquenchable thirst in more ways than I care to describe here, does it not? That being said, a certain portion of the benefactors of this entities authoritatively acquired unquenchabilities is supposed to be appeasing the poor, correct? They [the government] have done their mission of helping the poor lift themselves just enough out of living in destitituion where it’s a generational birth right in most cases. How did we allow to happen? I mean we’re at a point where some of the poor have remained complacent to remain content as long as the check arrives every month. Not taking personal responsibility and the consequences of that mindset have become a normal way life for some. The entity doesn’t want that to change now because it’s those humbled masses they get to parade in front of the cameras when there is a need to verify the existence of having a bigger and compassionate government. There doesn’t seem to be enough incentive coming from the government to encourage them to strive for any kind of better lifestyle. At a bare minimum there has to be some sort of tradeoff coming from both the recipients and provider. I don’t anticipate the government to urge their bread and butter existing population to get job training in order to find a job on the horizon anytime soon. That’s mainly because of what kind of crippling taxation being imposed on another section of our population who’ve had to halt their hiring, or reduce their existing workforce. The problem is that some of downtrodden, or the poor will not rise out of poverty through government entitlements, they rise through job creation opportunities made available to them throughout the private sector, e.g., a job or at least a better paying one. Shrinking the private sectors means to grow by ever increasing taxation by this authoritative entity translates into fewer job advantageous circumstances for the casual, underemployed, or the out of work poor. Viscious cycle this is being performed right before our very eyes. What do we do about this crippling venture our government is on other than expressing these views in hopes some of it sinks in? Identify those in power now where they’re wrong in their fiscal ideology, and persuade them to change course. If they cannot abide, or comply with this request, we vote them out of office and get people in there who do understand economic principles.
Americannodash on April 12, 2010 at 2:24 AM
Scaling back our government mandated everythings is a goal we must achieve, with a few exceptions of course. We’ll eventually reduce the tax burdens of those private sector enterprises who are the ones who can make more chances readily available to the poor, not govenment. We’re up against a population with an ingrained perception that must be reversed through education of the masses. Who has that ability? People that you site right here in your essay can CK. The entity must be shown to the disenfranchised poor that they are not a friend to the poor, they have only become their keeper. Under no uncertain terms can this be a denied factual occurrence of their daily lives. A true difference could happen in the long run for all of us in America if the basics of economics is comprehended. If the poor could be made to see, or at least understand, that it is these missed chances to attain a more affluent lifestyle that are currently being diminished everyday, and in everyway by their perceived benevolent keepers in government. Then, and only then could they help themselves by joining us in voting the bums out come November. We must reverse this downward economic spiral, and the only way is to get government out of the nanny state mentality. It is this reversal of leaving more money in the private sector that will incrementally bring back prosperity to all within their respected economical levels is by making the government smaller in the process. It is these cumulative binds of an authoritative government that believes in more intrusion into our lives, through uncompetetive means of intervention, and higher taxation that is a major factor in our current economic woes. If it isn’t abated sooner, rather than later, our outlook as remaining a world power will be grim indeed. Will the ranks of the poor only increase if things don’t change? All one has to do is take note of how our current economic trends have been. Can we as a nation make the lives of those who are poor now, and aren’t happy being so, rise? Not if government stays on its current spending spree. If only the misinformed were made aware of, or perhaps had an epiphany of sorts, that it is those very reduced prospects of the pursuit of happiness that are being taken, or squandered away right now by an ever growing government, that is where the problem rest. Moreover, the very people who are presently saying otherwise in high levels of government are deceiving them constantly casting false aspersions on the very people, and places of private businesses who in reality are where the economic solutions dwell. A bigger government exist not to help create wealth, bigger government merely exists in this scope because of mass information due to the lack education within our citizenry.
Americannodash on April 12, 2010 at 2:33 AM
Tell me about it. I pay $4,000 a year.
MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:35 AM
s/b to the of lack education
Americannodash on April 12, 2010 at 2:36 AM
The issue becomes: what happens when the 53% decide they aren’t going to make it happen anymore? What party is going to shake them down even harder and live to tell about it? The poorer people won’t vote for the party that promises to start to tax them. Guess it’s unstoppable force meets immovable object. Fission results, game over.
It’s the same thing already happening… entitlements won’t get major reform without one party drinking the hemlock. But unless one of them does, the entitlement ends anyway with monumental damages. This was the plan behind Obamacare– it’s planned to destroy the party that votes it out.
leftnomore on April 12, 2010 at 2:36 AM
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