Find a better way to argue about income taxes, please

posted at 5:13 pm on April 11, 2010 by CK MacLeod

I hate the following argument, and I tend to think that conservatives are fools to make too much of it. Mark Steyn:

And yet for an increasing number of Americans, tax season is like baseball season: It’s a spectator sport. According to the Tax Policy Center, for the year 2009, 47 percent of U.S. households will pay no federal income tax. Obviously, many of them pay other kinds of taxes — state tax, property tax, cigarette tax. But at a time of massive increases in federal spending, half the country is effectively making no contribution to it, whether it’s national defense or vital stimulus funding to pump monkeys in North Carolina full of cocaine (true, seriously, but don’t ask me why). Half a decade back, it was just under 40 percent who paid no federal income tax; now it’s just under 50 percent.

Such observations recently led Doctor Zero to attempt a thought experiment about excluding “net tax-consumers” from the voting franchise. See, according to the Doctor and Mr. Steyn, or at least the line of thinking with which they’re publicly experimenting, everyone who isn’t (currently) paying any federal income tax is virtually a free rider, a mere spectator, and is no longer adequately invested in public affairs to be consulted – or, worse, is merely in the game to steal more and more from authentically productive citizens.

Tho if you really want to set my blood a-boilin’, and want to risk turning many a potential Tea Partier back into a Democrat, and want to conjure the image of conservatives as confoundingly out of touch, just try abbreviating the above argument – as I’ve heard assorted pundits, politicos, and sinecured think tankers do – to “soon a majority of Americans won’t be paying any taxes.” Even quickly amending that to “no federal taxes” or “no federal income taxes” will at best lower the ol’ blood temperature to “rapid” rather than “boiling off.”

On the face of it, on the level of the real world shorthand takeaway, the argument seems to put conservatives on the side of higher taxes for some number between 0 to 100% of the poorer half of the population, and according to some species of a “fairness” justification. You guys sure that’s where we want to be? At the same time, it ignores some of the primary causes of this creeping re-structuring of the income tax revenue base – e.g., an aging population, increasingly also an under- and unemployed population.

Most significantly to the average irresponsible free riding spectator and thief undeserving of the vote, the argument rather completely ignores, or flagrantly minimizes, all of the taxes and fees that lower income people pay, usually under an extremely regressive structure. Just so everyone’s clear on exactly what that means: the poorer you are, the more they hurt, to the point of hurting a lot.

I’m not just talking about the taxes and fees that Steyn concedes before he gets to his “but” sentence. In a time when the federal government has routinely raided entitlement revenue to fund ongoing expenditures, to the point of defunding the programs, how are Social Security and Medicare taxes anything other than a flat income tax (double-sized for the self-employed) that’s reverse means-tested – since, by virtue of the cut-off (ca. $100k these days), high income people don’t pay into the program at anywhere near the same overall rate that lower income people do?  (Atención! – AP -  maybe this can help explain those “mystifying” survey results.)

Here’s my thought hypothesis: The Dems opened themselves to means-testing when arguing for the Obama tax rebate, suggesting it would help people burdened by those FICA taxes. Oopsie! Only conservatives were supposed to be evil enough to question the premises of our sacrosanct “equal” “social insurance” contributions. How about dropping the whole insurance charade – it’s always been one – eliminating the cut-off, means-testing both contributions and benefits (including taxes on the latter), putting in a realistic retirement age and cost-of-living-adjustment, then getting back to me when you’ve calculated the impacts of various rates on unfunded obligations? (I’m really curious about this one – but I still have to do my own $&*^@! taxes.)

Now back on the rest of our mere spectator’s burden:  Residents of relatively high tax states will typically be paying a second, completely regressive tax in the form of sales taxes, usually pushing 10%, biting every day, sometimes several times a day. Most will pay a third set of usually highly regressive fees for government services on the municipal level and higher – often through utility fees that include within them additional charges from that federal government that we’re supposedly uninvolved with. And relatively low income people are of course the ones hardest hit by gasoline taxes, which will typically include both a federal and a state component. We poor people have also been paying ever higher, noticeably higher rates for everything from college tuition, to smokes, to postage – fed + state + local, directly and indirectly, you think we have the time to sort out which goes to which goes to which?  We can hardly stand even to look!

I’m also aware that, one way or another, even before the possible imposition of a new national sales tax (VAT) – for which Mr. Steyn and Doctor Zero seem to be providing a moral argument, regardless of whatever they believe about a VAT on its own terms – all levels of government and indeed the economy are interwoven, via unfunded mandates and regulatory burdens, and increasingly by the massive overhang of federal debt.

I’m guessing that people like me will be paying disproportionately for it all, for that last one especially – possibly through inflation/monetization, possibly by some other means.

Partly as a result of ’08-’09 fiscal crisis, my main business (collectibles sales over the internet) was devastated for a few months: A chart of my turnover would look a lot like the stock market, and the loss of business will be reflected in a lower income tax “contribution” than in prior years. Though I haven’t yet tallied up the results – I may not finish doing my $&*^@! tax return until around 4:50 PM PST, April 15, 2010 – I already know that that I’m feeling pretty darn overtaxed already, even before I calculate whatever small portion of my total tax burden is called “federal income taxes” by people like Mr. Steyn, whose argument (regardless of what Mr. Steyn himself thinks about the big picture) seems to say that I need to send even more money that I don’t have to the government, so that I can feel more invested in what it does.

Trust me, I feel quite adequately “invested” in government policy. I’ve got plenty of skin in the game. Shed more every day. Don’t have much extra skin left at all, matter of fact. Whatever conservatives have in mind with this argument, I cannot see why they think it will get them somewhere to seem to be whining for still more flesh.

cross-posted at Zombie Contentions

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Wrong again, I must be tired. s/b to the lack of education

Americannodash on April 12, 2010 at 2:38 AM

Tell me about it. I pay $4,000 a year.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:35 AM

I’ll take $4000 a year of prop tax instead of my Los Angeles BS of almost $6000! All on a house that’s lost $250,000 in equity in 4 years.

leftnomore on April 12, 2010 at 2:38 AM

I hate the fact that our country passed a Constitutional Amendment banning the Poll Tax.
Tim Burton on April 12, 2010 at 2:20 AM

The Poll Tax in England was nothing like the one here. Any attempt to punish the lower income segment of this population will backfire. The result will be catastrophe for conservatives.

Exclusion from federal income tax started at the low end of the scale. Among slight probabilities, continuing upward until the last high earner is excluded is more likely.

Feedie on April 12, 2010 at 2:39 AM

I’ll take $4000 a year of prop tax instead of my Los Angeles BS of almost $6000! All on a house that’s lost $250,000 in equity in 4 years.

leftnomore on April 12, 2010 at 2:38 AM

Will the last one to leave Los Angeles please turn off the lights.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:49 AM

Until it was shot down (for the time being), there was a scheme called Fix-5 in Northern California to loot property owners to pay for the expansion of I-5. It never ends.

Feedie on April 12, 2010 at 2:57 AM

It’s a very tempting argument that comes from intractable problems — our permanent ruling class and the ignorant and corrupt electorate. The voters aren’t all to blame, though; the two parties are successful at rigging the system for incumbents and insiders.

Feedie on April 12, 2010 at 2:06 AM

This is the heart of it. Legislators buy votes by promising the moon to people who never expect to pay for it – whether it be the poor or the current generation. Their terms are finite – except for Byrd – so their is no incentive for legislators to take the long view other than a sense of responsibility. And that appears to be a very rare commodity.

Everyone has known for years that Social Security was going to go bust because the “trust fund” had for generations been used as an insider slush fund. Nothing was done to correct the problem because no one was hurting yet. Leave it for the next guy.

Limiting the franchise to taxpayers is an idea intended to solve the systemic problem of crippling deficits brought about by giveaway boondoggles that make the right folks happy and get Q. Byrum Congressman re-elected, but which have destroyed the economy. A more mature and reponsible electorate would help.

I think that there are better ideas, if we could agree to demand them in the streets, in congressional offices, and in the ballot box. We need to pass a constitutional amendment forbidding any deficit spending, period. That would stop the bleeding and give us time to debate the changes that must be made to end the era of smash-and-grab politics and restore responsible government.

A balanced budget amendment right now just might save the country. Amendments start at the state level. Write your state legislators and tell them to get on it if you want it to happen.

Venusian Visitor on April 12, 2010 at 3:03 AM

Trust me, I feel quite adequately “invested” in government policy. I’ve got plenty of skin in the game. Shed more every day. Don’t have much extra skin left at all, matter of fact. Whatever conservatives have in mind with this argument, I cannot see why they think it will get them somewhere to seem to be whining for still more flesh.

Oh, and you think Steyn is whining?
What would you call this?

We poor people have also been paying ever higher, noticeably higher rates for everything from college tuition, to smokes, to postage – fed + state + local, directly and indirectly, you think we have the time to sort out which goes to which goes to which? We can hardly stand even to look!

Cry me a river, CK. And while you’re at it, figure out where you’re going with an argument before you start writing.

CarolynM on April 12, 2010 at 5:56 AM

Will the last one to leave Los Angeles please turn off the lights.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:49 AM

Translate that into Spanish or they wont understand you…

doriangrey on April 12, 2010 at 7:06 AM

If you think your property taxes are bad anywhere, just imagine this. My brother pays 15k/year on a 850k home in NJ, I pay a rediculous amount that I won\’t even put here. All of that money goes to the Abbott districts, not even spent in my community. It\’s gross – and if I could sell my home I would and move to PA…..Anyone interested in a fine country home, in NJ? Not only that, but you would be neighbors with one of New Jersey\’s most esteemed residents – Robert \’The Torch\’ Torricelli!

Fishy.Gov on April 12, 2010 at 7:26 AM

Look for everything to be called, “fees,” which is simply a way to lie about raising taxes.

And the application across the board will hurt middle-class people more than anyone.

AnninCA on April 12, 2010 at 7:38 AM

CarolynM on April 12, 2010 at 5:56

AM

Excellent. If I have to chose between CK and Mark Steyn on economics…well, Steyn wins hands down every time.

ladyingray on April 12, 2010 at 7:42 AM

OK, Steyn and Doc are right.

Nobody should be paying nothing in taxes who enjoys the full franchise.

Children, felons, and mental incompetents are exempt.

Ragspierre on April 12, 2010 at 8:07 AM

@CK MacLeod,

See, according to the Doctor and Mr. Steyn, or at least the line of thinking (…)

Translation:

They never said what I attribute to them, but this is about a larger truth.

Desperate for attention, much?

Niko on April 12, 2010 at 8:29 AM

“tax. A forced burden, charge, exaction, imposition or contribution assessed in accordance with some reasonable rule of apportionment by authority of a sovereign state upon the persons or property within its jurisdiction to provide for public revenue for the support of the government, the administration of the law, or the payment of public expenses. 51 AmJ1st Tax § 3.” Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1255.
“Racket. The organized use of threats, coercion, intimidation, and violence to compel the payment for actual or alleged services of arbitrary or excessive charges under the guise of membership dues, protection fees, royalties, or service rates. United States v McGlone (DC Pa) 19 F Supp 285, 286.” Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1051.
“Chattel slavery. A civil relationship in which one person, group or government has absolute power over the life, property, and liberty of another.”
This is an accurate description, from the definitions above, of how men and women pretending to be “government” operate. I like the second one because it’s actually the definition of “racketeer.” Men and women pretending to be “government” only have to do one thing different (here’s the “radical” “extremist” part): provide their services on a voluntary basis like everybody else. The government hoax is that “government,” a racket, is legitimate and necessary. That’s absurd. Maybe if you believe a service should be provided at the barrel of a gun then yes, you’d think “government” is legitimate and necessary.
The government hoax is exposed with nothing more than no service or product should to be provided at the barrel of a gun. If the service men and women doing business as a pretended “state” is so valuable, then people will voluntarily accept and pay for it.
It’s because governments are gangs of killers, thieves and liars. There is no such thing as a legitimate government, so nothing they do is legitimate regardless of the endless red herrings statists (republicans and democrats) throw up.

Governments are men and women providing services on a compulsory basis; pay or get shot or as I like to say COMPLY OR DIE. To be legitimate they would have to drop their guns and provide their services on a voluntary basis. However, the moment they do so, they cease to be a government.
That is quite the conundrum.

Either you believe all human interaction should be voluntary (the true meaning of freedom, do what you want without causing loss, injury or harm to some other individual) or you do not. Those who do not believe human interaction should be voluntary are, medically speaking, anti-social, not un-social, but anti-social as in “sociopath” and “psychopath”. All human interaction should be voluntary.
So the question of the day is;
Should a product or service be provided at the barrel of a gun?

Statism and it’s supporting theology are not here to promote freedom or protect “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”; it is mind control to divert our attention away from the actions of anti-social individuals who are so desperate to “protect” us they are willing to kill us and steal our property.
From the beginning, our government was designed to protect and maintain individual rights. Why is our government always first in line to take those rights away at a moments notice?
Some will attack this post and say, “What’s the alternative?!” That’s easy:
Anything done under the guise of consent can be done by consent.

0321_GUY on April 12, 2010 at 8:38 AM

Tho if you really want to set my blood a-boilin’, and want to risk turning many a potential Tea Partier back into a Democrat, and want to conjure the image of conservatives as confoundingly out of touch, just try abbreviating the above argument – as I’ve heard assorted pundits, politicos, and sinecured think tankers do – to “soon a majority of Americans won’t be paying any taxes.” Even quickly amending that to “no federal taxes” or “no federal income taxes” will at best lower the ol’ blood temperature to “rapid” rather than “boiling off.”

Be careful, folks, CK might have a stroke and vote Democrat! This does rather explain CK’s obsession with progressivism, though.

Disturb the Universe on April 12, 2010 at 8:38 AM

Gotta go with Steyn over CK on this one.

This stuff about Soc Sec payroll taxes is a red herring.

In the first place, you can’t think of the effects of Soc Sec only on the tax side. You have to look at the whole picture (taxes and benefits) to get a picture of distributional effects. The benefit formula is progressive, and the lowest-income people are net gainers from the transaction, the highest-income poeple net losers.

Politicians play a game with Soc Sec taxes — when they talk about Soc Sec solvency, the “Trust Fund,” and the benefits everyone is entitled to, expenditures are justified on the basis of past payroll tax contributions. But at the same time they talk about the payoll tax as a burden to be relieved. It can’t be both — either it establishes an entitlement to a benefit, or it doesn’t. But you can’t talk about the payroll tax as a “burden” unless you’re willing to cut the benefits associated with it every time we take actions to “relieve” the payroll tax burden.

CK’s argument also neglects the fact that since Soc Sec started racking up big surpluses, politicians have fallen all over themselves to provide “relief” from the payroll tax through refundable income tax credits, such as the EITC, the Making Work Pay tax credit, etc. On the low-income end, we’ve basically refunded a lot of those taxes (and then some) for the lowest-income people, even though for Trust Fund accounting purposes we’ve pretended that money was all collected.

CK may be right on the politics, but Steyn is right on the substance. The current payroll tax structure redistributes heavily towards the low-income end, both in terms of the benefits it funds as well as the refundable tax credits it inspires.

Chuckles3 on April 12, 2010 at 8:43 AM

So my son moves to New Hampshire where there is no income tax and ends up paying triple his old property tax. Now the poor and the retired suffer disproportionately – I can’t afford to retire there. You can call it grass, a lawn or an carbon dioxide synthesizer, but it’s still greem stuff that grows.

Taxes are inevitable. Wait until the bill for Obamanation comes due.

Don L on April 12, 2010 at 8:44 AM

echosyst on April 11, 2010 at 7:36 PM

I agree; Since Hot Air was sold, too many articles have been published for their “comment factor”.

Cybergeezer on April 12, 2010 at 8:57 AM

This is a ridiculous premise CK. Conservatives who make the point that “soon a majority of Americans won’t be paying any taxes” are not advocating “higher taxes for some number between 0 to 100% of the poorer half of the population, and according to some species of a “fairness” justification.”

It’s not about “fairness” or anything related to it, and I don’t see conservatives making that argument. It’s about the notion that once we have a majority of people who vote paying no federal income taxes, the minority of voters who do pay become sheep among wolves. When it is the productive minority being forced by the power of government to support the unproductive majority, the unproductive majority will continue to vote for Socialist politicians who will perpetuate and worsen this dynamic until prosperity is crushed and nothing good about America remains.

You have bitten deeply into the class-warfare apple, and accepted the premise on your enemy’s terms, and you find yourself arguing against their false premises and shameful demagoguery.

IronDioPriest on April 12, 2010 at 9:05 AM

I don’t think anyone should be exempt from paying but I think everyone should pay the same exact per centage. The only true fair tax is 6% on whatevery you make, whoever you are. Paper boy? 6%. Warren Buffet? 6%. No deductions, no exceptions, no delays. Make money this week? Pay 6%. What about the stock market? Pay on the take out. Stocks go up and down but it is on the cash out that you have the end value.
Then, if the “poor” want to raise taxes, it costs them the same as the rich. Will there be people who don’t pay? Sure. Will there be liars and theives? Absolutely. But there are those people now. Just look at the head of the IRS. We still didn’t get his check on a blantant lie. But most people are going to pay into the system because it is right. And then we get our cut of all illegal activity too.
But this only works if it is the ONLY tax. Then the 50 states can collect the money and give the Federal Government its 3% and keep the rest. No more having 50 guys licking their chops over piles of cash and new ways of spending it.
People need to be invested in their government. MR. CK Macleod, if we get the weepy bleeding hearts out of meddling in our finances and our lives and our paychecks and make it completely fair, if we pay for want we must have, like sewers and water treatment, and courts, and education, then the people can choose to help others voluntarily. Government is a flimsy raft at best and NOT an umbrella. It should be restricted down to the fewest logs. And yes, it should be responsible for making a level field for workers but all laws should be equal and blind for all people. Equal and blind. Laws and taxes. Period.

Ohio Granny on April 12, 2010 at 9:09 AM

CK: This just gave me a headache and made no sense unless your purpose was to whine about being poor or something. “Everyone” should have to pay something into the system. That said the system is broke.

How about we abolish the federal tax system, and have the states collect all taxes. Then all states would be required to get together and determine what the federal govt. gets. The fed would then have their budget, period, with no way to increase it unless the states approve it. If the people want more from the govt. than let them ask their “local” politician who would than have to devise their own program or get consent from the other states to provide additional funding for the Fed..

Lets have just a retail sales tax, so everyone who buys something pays, until we can fix the illegal problem anyway. The tax for any one state would be based on what they needed to collect to pay the Fed and to pay for State programs. If you don’t like what your state charges as a tax rate you have 49 other choices. Capitalism at its finest.

And I’m not saying there wouldn’t be any social programs for people in need, just trying to address the tax issue. Crap, I think I just fixed it!!

New Patriot on April 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM

I live in NJ and I pay 14,000 per year in property taxes. And I’m hardly alone, and I’m certainly paying less than many others. 14k per year. Ugh.

Dash on April 12, 2010 at 9:39 AM

Bubba Redneck on April 12, 2010 at 1:16 AM

So property owners are the only one that pay property taxes? So when a landlord determines rent for a certain piece of property, property taxes are never included in that number. If we’re going to throw this argument around, lets at least be honest. Saying only property owners should vote is just stupid.

jack herman on April 12, 2010 at 9:41 AM

Back when I was a Democrat, I had a conversation with an economics professor who believed that taxing the unemployed would improve the economy and someway make a better world. To say the least, the conversation had nothing to do with why I became a Republican.

thuja on April 12, 2010 at 10:02 AM

how are Social Security and Medicare taxes anything other than a flat income tax (double-sized for the self-employed) that’s reverse means-tested – since, by virtue of the cut-off (ca. $100k these days),

this is an incorrect statement – everyone pays the same rate of social security the only difference is that self employed sees both sides of the equation – your employer matches your contribution to social security.

RonK on April 12, 2010 at 10:03 AM

I live in NJ and I pay 14,000 per year in property taxes. And I’m hardly alone, and I’m certainly paying less than many others. 14k per year. Ugh.

Dash on April 12, 2010 at 9:39 AM

Ouch! Come on down to Texas- people complain all the time (and rightly so) about our property taxes but I pay well under half of what you do. And no state income tax.

cibolo on April 12, 2010 at 10:16 AM

jack herman on April 12, 2010 at 9:41 AM

I happen to own rental property in California. I understand your point but your premise is NOT TRUE in EVERY case. 1. There are large sections of the state run by very Leftist City Councils. These City Councils have instituted Rent Control and you are not allowed to raise rent. 2. On top of Property Taxes they force mandates and regulations using the Disabilities Act to force property owners to install ramps, elevators, and/or even widen doorways. All at the Property Owners expense without ability to recoup the costs and done on behalf of renters. 3. Eviction laws in this state favor the renter who can end up in their apartment for 6 months or more rent-free gaming the system. Not ALL renters are covering the cost of property taxes paid by the owners.

Sultry Beauty on April 12, 2010 at 10:16 AM

I don’t think anyone should be exempt from paying but I think everyone should pay the same exact per centage. The only true fair tax is 6% on whatevery you make, whoever you are. Paper boy? 6%. Warren Buffet? 6%. No deductions, no exceptions, no delays. Make money this week? Pay 6%. What about the stock market? Pay on the take out. Stocks go up and down but it is on the cash out that you have the end value.

Should those taxes be compulsory or voluntary? If they are compulsory i.e. comply or die (comply or go to jail, comply or we will take all of your stuff), then we are back in the statist bucket just like the rest of the progressive statist out there who want to tax everything living or dead.

Again, here is the definition of tax;

tax. A forced burden, charge, exaction, imposition or contribution assessed in accordance with some reasonable rule of apportionment by authority of a sovereign state upon the persons or property within its jurisdiction to provide for public revenue for the support of the government, the administration of the law, or the payment of public expenses. 51 AmJ1st Tax § 3.” Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1255.

Anything forced on you is the definition of tyranny, or a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force.

Anything forced on you is positively opposite of liberty.

0321_GUY on April 12, 2010 at 10:21 AM

Instead of railing about two columnists’ thought exercise in trying to find a solution to a taxing problem and a populace that is frankly tired of shouldering a lot of the burden, why don’t you offer a better solution?

It’s a complex issue, to be sure…but this kind of column does what exactly to fix it?

Fail.

search4truth on April 12, 2010 at 10:23 AM

Interesting how this thread gets promoted yet again simply because a majority of commenters complain about the arguments premise then go off on a tangent complaining about their high taxes.

Why does the Right feel the need to argue whether something looks lemon or gold? It’s still just yellow when you come down to it. The bottom line that ALL Conservatives can agree: we pay to much in taxes at every level already and it needs to be reversed. Obviously this thread proves that we need not fear saying that, even to the poor who feel they pay even more than their rich brethren!

Sultry Beauty on April 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM

The underlying question is, should taxes be compulsory or voluntary?

It is that simple.

Any argument that supports compulsory thought is siding with the man with the gun who may someday use it on you or your children.

0321_GUY on April 12, 2010 at 10:51 AM

The underlying question is, should taxes be compulsory or voluntary?

0321_GUY on April 12, 2010 at 10:51 AM

They are the price of civilization.

Now if you want to debate WHAT taxes, or HOW MUCH, there’s plenty of wiggle room.

Dark-Star on April 12, 2010 at 11:10 AM

I’ve long proposed a system of taxation that follows these perimeters:

1. Any tax that is designed to, or has the effect of, furthering some social design (redistribution, sin tax, etc.) is unconstitutional. The sole VALID purpose of taxation in a free society is revenue generation.

2. The tax should be avoidable. Not easily avoided, but where people are adamantly opposed to the acts of the federal government, they should be able to express it via their taxes. This does not mean refusing to pay the tax should be easy or painless. A consumption-based tax on new products would facilitate this.

3. Every citizen should be subject to the same taxation. Nobody can make a case that some should pay for their governance while others do not.

Ragspierre on April 12, 2010 at 11:16 AM

Ouch! Come on down to Texas- people complain all the time (and rightly so) about our property taxes but I pay well under half of what you do. And no state income tax.

cibolo on April 12, 2010 at 10:16 AM

I may just do that. We’re going in May to visit my brother at the Air Force base in San Antonio. Will be my first time there, looking forward to it. 14k! Oh the humanity, not like i’m rich or anything either. And it goes to subsidize half the state! *passes out*

Dash on April 12, 2010 at 11:33 AM

I kind of thought that Dr.Zero’s thought experiment came to the conclusion that denying people their vote based on paying taxes was NOT the proper thing to do.

I gathered that from his closing paragraph: (emphasis mine)

Representation without taxation is not our fatal problem. People from every income group should accept the responsibility to vote wisely, and insist on absolute fidelity to the Constitution – that mighty covenant between free men and the lawful republic they defied the guns of empire to raise. Our legislators and President are meant to be the guardians of our freedom, not the engineers of our lives… or merchants who trade entitlements for power. The thick web of puppet strings which spread from our titanic State reach deep into the 53% who still pay taxes. Ignorance and ideology led us to this moment, not just the selfish votes of our permanent dependency class. The government needs to shrink, not the electorate.

I know his columns are long, but they’re really worth reading all the way to the end, CK.

And for a guy who’s just paid in the high 5 figures for income taxes this year, I’m a little frustrated at the tax system we’ve got, and how there are people unlike you and Jeff (who do pay taxes and are conservative) who are simply suckling at the government’s (ie MY) teat. Leave my teats alone!

I don’t want to deny anyone their vote, but what IS a good way to argue about taxes? The gov. spends too much? That’s a good argument…do you expect that to change anytime soon? Even if the R’s win in Nov., I just expect too much spending in different areas and on different programs than when the D’s are in control.

Other than arguing (incorrectly) that Dr.Zero suggests denying people who don’t pay taxes a vote, what is YOUR suggestion to keep people who don’t pay taxes to continue to vote for people who will raise other people’s taxes to give to programs that benefit THEM?

DrAllecon on April 12, 2010 at 11:52 AM

If you want a laugh at the expense of Pelosi, Reid, Waxman, and Frank, check this out.

dnlchisholm on April 12, 2010 at 11:56 AM


They are the price of civilization.

So the price of civilization should be provided by the barrel of a gun?

0321_GUY on April 12, 2010 at 11:58 AM

Wow CK, talk about missing the point. Dr. Zero and Steyn were NOT talking about the same thing. Steyn was talking about how reducing the number of payors and making the non-payors dependent on the government was buying votes and putting more of the burden on the productive segments of society. You do Steyn a disservice and make yourself look foolish.

gitarfan on April 12, 2010 at 12:05 PM

I really like the consumption tax idea. Getting rid of income and payroll taxes altogether and taxing people at the retail level.The Fair Tax

Queen0fCups on April 12, 2010 at 12:23 PM

CK may be right on the politics, but Steyn is right on the substance. The current payroll tax structure redistributes heavily towards the low-income end, both in terms of the benefits it funds as well as the refundable tax credits it inspires.

Chuckles3 on April 12, 2010 at 8:43 AM

CK is also wrong on the politics. The system promoted by Democrats and tacitly accepted by many Republicans is a system designed to pit rich against poor, with a “screw the rich” rhetoric. Democrats like it because they can pretend to take the side of the poor and say, those nasty Republicans just want to cut taxes for the rich.

What CK is afraid of is that Republicans will take the other side and say “screw the poor”. He interprets the tea parties as a revolt against the poor, which is exactly how the Democrats want them interpreted, but that’s not the point. The tea parties are led by the middle class who recognize that taxes and spending should not be engineered for the re-election of incumbents, but for solvency and growth. Making sure that everybody feels the pain of spending, or the profit of growth, is part of a call for transparency. Only with that transparency is real reform possible.

joe_doufu on April 12, 2010 at 12:52 PM

Well, CK…

…your point is valid if we didn’t have a welfare state. It is the associated spending that forces the argument to be framed in this fashion and it is important to illustrate the tactics that worshippers of State power use to divide us.

That being said, I think you have an important side note that may be lost on those that think that lower income earners are not heavily burdened with taxation; they are.

I think what gets lost in this argument is that it is not a war between the haves and have nots. The regime of thought that is pervading Washington is the belief that the middle class needs to be controlled and engineered.

The trick to this is to make enough of them (the middle class) believe that the high income earners are not paying their fair share.

The arguments that Steyn and Zero make are a sharply pointed retort.

Saltysam on April 12, 2010 at 12:56 PM

I must have missed the part where Davy Crockett advocated, seriously or “unseriously, explicitly or implicitly, that low income people should have, or “maybe” should have, no vote, or less votes than others with a lot more money.

MB4 on April 11, 2010 at 9:15 PM

He didn’t. But what he did advocate was a restriction (which he felt was part and parcel of the Constitution) on the legislature voting largess or charity to the People, for such charity or largess involves nothing more than the theft of taxes paid by the working person to be distributed to others at the whim of the legislature. Out of such acts come all manner of corruption, as the largess becomes the means of purchasing votes.

unclesmrgol on April 12, 2010 at 1:48 PM

Twenty-sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

First Animal Farm Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who pay less income tax than whomever pays the most income tax, to vote shall be denied or abridged by the United States and by the States on account of monetary contribution.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 1:58 PM

Twenty-sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution (Animal Farm Updated).

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age, but it may be and should be and will be if they don’t pay as much taxes as Barack Hussein Obama, because although all animals are created equal, some are created more equal than others.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM

If some people had their way, if Mother Theresa were still alive, and had become an American citizen, she would not been seen as worthy enough to vote.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:11 PM

How much income taxes did Abraham Lincoln pay before he could vote?

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:12 PM

The Road to Hell is paved with “good” intentions.

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:14 PM

Ugh I hesitate to read what vitriol might have showed up in this thread bcs the Dr Zero thread on this was insane.

This notion that your payment of income taxes put you into some kind of holy martyr bracket on the voting scene is crazy.
So is income tax the only revenue the federal govt collects for itself & it’s many programs?
Of course not.
I may get out of paying income taxes bcs we use the legal tax code laws to get out of it, but it does not mean I don’t pay taxes.
And even if I didn’t own property, I would still be paying taxes.
Everyone who buys:
gasoline or any type of fuel
buys any produced good
buys certain services (i.e. telephone service)
gets SS & Medicaid/care taken out of their checks
IS PAYING TAXES.
Unless you are an individual who operates out of a complete black market system, has no SS # & works under the table as well, you always have skin in the game.
When I pay gas tax, I expect that $$ to be spent wisely to repair the roads I drive over in my state, as well as nationally.
I don’t want that $$ to be wasted at all.
When I pay a telephone tax, I don’t want that $$ to be wasted, either.
And people on welfare pay taxes, they are just receiving the tax $$ of others on the side.
It’s ALL taxes.
All these user fees & crap along with excise taxes etc are ALL taxes.
FICA is not the sole abriter of whether an individual is actually paying their fair share of taxes & it’s nothing but a class-warfare ploy to state it as such.
We ALL have skin in the game.
I care how my paltry $100 in taxes is spent just as much as the other guy who has $10,000 in taxes.
Proportionally, a lot of times my $$ is = in proportional amount to the ‘rich’ guy’s tax amounts.
Conservative CANNOT go down this road of ‘the rich’ pay more & so therefore should have a larger say.
The rich are paying more, but the poor are often paying more in other ways.
And if we taught more economics in schools & people were forced to consider that taxes are more than just FICA, they would get more angry about them.
I was taling to my HS students about this & I illustrated it by talking about the Tax Freedom day & we discussed all the taxes that are levied upon people.
They were outraged that gasoline was taxed so much.
They were outraged that VAT taxes were in existence for certain things.
If you explian the nuances of all of this to people, they will catch on.
But to divide the public based on who pays FICA & who does not is a RED HERRING & must not be explored.
It will do nothing but help destroy us.

Badger40 on April 12, 2010 at 2:21 PM

So the price of civilization should be provided by the barrel of a gun?

0321_GUY on April 12, 2010 at 11:58 AM

Yeah, pretty much. See: every war ever.

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 12, 2010 at 2:22 PM

Is it conceivable that a system might be fundamentally flawed that allows 47% of the citizens who pay no federal tax to continually elect politicians who vote to impose higher taxes on the remaining 53% so that the 47% might receive more benefits doled out from that same system? Isn’t that the question or am I totally missing the point here?

sdd on April 12, 2010 at 2:24 PM

How much income taxes did Abraham Lincoln pay before he could vote?

Ignorance.

Showing.

Ragspierre on April 12, 2010 at 2:30 PM

The Road to Hell is paved with “good” COLLECTIVIST intentions.

Ragspierre on April 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM

Sultry Beauty on April 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM

Absolutely correct. And the rollback on taxes needs to start at the most local level possible. Which is why it is incumbent upon every property tax payer to reject as many school bond issues and Mill Levy Overrides as possible, for example. Education will never fully address its own issues unless the money flow is cut off, or at least halted.

BradSchwartze on April 12, 2010 at 2:36 PM

Since Hot Air was sold, too many articles have been published for their “comment factor”.

Cybergeezer on April 12, 2010 at 8:57 AM

You are SPOT ON.
It is getting annoying.
So much so that I may not visit as much.
In fact, I’ve already cut down my visitation to HA bcs they’ve been posting emotionally charged crap over logical crap.
Honestly, I wonder if it’s a liberal conspiracy or something!

Badger40 on April 12, 2010 at 2:37 PM

Is it conceivable that a system might be fundamentally flawed that allows 47% of the citizens who pay no federal tax to continually elect politicians who vote to impose higher taxes on the remaining 53% so that the 47% might receive more benefits doled out from that same system? Isn’t that the question or am I totally missing the point here?

sdd on April 12, 2010 at 2:24 PM

Points are points, but any advocating a “solution” to a problem should ask themselves, does the end justify the means?

This is nothing less than the totalitarian philosophy that the end justifies the means. If ever there was a philosophy of government totally at war with that of the Founding Fathers, it is this one.
- Barry Goldwater

MB4 on April 12, 2010 at 2:55 PM

4 pages of negative comments = ratings jackpot = just the signal AllahPundit needs to do this more often?

How about we abolish the federal tax system, and have the states collect all taxes. Then all states would be required to get together and determine what the federal govt. gets. The fed would then have their budget, period, with no way to increase it unless the states approve it. If the people want more from the govt. than let them ask their “local” politician who would than have to devise their own program or get consent from the other states to provide additional funding for the Fed..

New Patriot on April 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM

You know, there’s a Doctor Zero article in there somewhere about how perverted the incentives became between the Federal government and the States, because all the tax money goes to Washington first before it gets returned.

That lets Washington demand all kinds of compliance from the states that it never was authorized to demand, by withholding the states’ (ahem) own money under the guise of “federal funds”. Federal my ath! In a sense, how *dare* they?

And nothing will change as long as the Federal government collects 35%, and the state government collects 6%. Just imagine things if the picture were reversed, with the states collecting 35% and the Federal gov’t collecting 6%. With the bludgeon of “federal money” removed from the equation, you might begin to see different states actually competing again, and the promise of 50 competing systems more fully realized again.

(I’m avoiding some things here, such as how entitlements would be treated…)

And for a guy who’s just paid in the high 5 figures for income taxes this year, I’m a little frustrated at the tax system we’ve got, and how there are people unlike you and Jeff (who do pay taxes and are conservative) who are simply suckling at the government’s (ie MY) teat. Hey! Moocher! Leave my teats alone! All in all it’s just a-…

DrAllecon on April 12, 2010 at 11:52 AM

There, FIFY :)

RD on April 12, 2010 at 3:08 PM

3. Every citizen should be subject to the same taxation. Nobody can make a case that some should pay for their governance while others do not.

I haven’t seen anyone try, either…

But, as applied, our income tax system is naked redistribution.

Constitutional governance would cost a fraction of our current expenditures.

Ragspierre on April 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM

There, FIFY :)

RD on April 12, 2010 at 3:08 PM

Good catch, lol.

DrAllecon on April 12, 2010 at 3:14 PM

A balanced budget amendment right now just might save the country. Amendments start at the state level. Write your state legislators and tell them to get on it if you want it to happen.

Venusian Visitor on April 12, 2010 at 3:03 AM

A ‘Balanced Budget Amendment’ WON’T WORK!!

This is because Liberals view the demand for a ‘Balanced Budget’ as a demand for new taxes…which will merely enable more spending!

Make sure that there is an effective restraint on spending before demanding a “balanced budget”!! Otherwise, you’ll fall prey to the Liberals’ perversion-of-balance trick!!!

landlines on April 12, 2010 at 3:37 PM

And nothing will change as long as the Federal government collects 35%, and the state government collects 6%. Just imagine things if the picture were reversed, with the states collecting 35% and the Federal gov’t collecting 6%. With the bludgeon of “federal money” removed from the equation, you might begin to see different states actually competing again, and the promise of 50 competing systems more fully realized again.

RD on April 12, 2010 at 3:08 PM

The American left loves to tout nations like Sweden as an example of how things like socialized medicine can work, but they forget that in that nation FEDERAL income taxes are smaller proportionately than cantonal income taxes.

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 12, 2010 at 3:42 PM

A ‘Balanced Budget Amendment’ WON’T WORK!!

But it will, as you also note.

It has to be tied to a maximum fraction of GDP, except in a time of war.

All that is doable.

Ragspierre on April 12, 2010 at 3:54 PM

I don’t know about excluding non-payers from voting. But how about excluding anybody who receives their primary income from state and/or federal governments? You’d have to amend the Constitution, obviously, and you’d lose the military vote. But think of all the other reality-detached, pork-gobbling “me” votes that’d be neutralized. (And yes, I realize it’s no more realistic than my notion of amending the Constitution to raise the voting age to 30…)

Blacklake on April 12, 2010 at 4:52 PM

OH NO YOU DIDN’T JUST PUT UP A PICTURE OF STEYN WITH THE WORD FAIL UNDERNEATH!!!!

THAT’S IT MAC, LET’S TAKE THIS OUTSIDE!!

stefanite on April 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM

JK about the take it outside stuff…

Mark Steyn still rules though.

stefanite on April 12, 2010 at 4:59 PM

Hmmmm. I’m going to have the be one of the meanies, but the argument doesn’t hold any weight with me. I think you are right when you say that expressing it in such terms is political suicide, but I think at some point people have to wake up to the truth. So political suicide or not, the substance of the issue, is the truth of the issue.

Full Disclosure:
I’m one of those people who work, have taxes taken out, file and then hope for a refund based on deductions. Sometimes I luck out, sometimes I break even, and rarely do I owe.

As far as regressive taxes go, if you mean sales tax, property tax, sin taxes, fees, etc then it does not matter if you are rich or poor- everyone pays those taxes. You can hardly call that regressive if everyone has to pay them. Many of these taxes are based on consumption. The more I consume the more I pay. I have no animosity towards CK, but this isn’t the first time I heard this argument. I’m really getting sick and tired of using the emotionalism of everyday taxes, everyone pays as method of guilt tripping people who have a disposable income. No I don’t feel bad that “poor” people have to pay a sales tax, especially since I have to pay the same tax. And more importantly, I take issue with what this country perceives as “poor” and “poverty”.

Our standard of poverty is based on what it takes to meet your bare necessities- food, shelter, warmth, transportation etc. Yet, I’ve personally known many “poor” people (poor enough to qualify for social welfare programs, in addition to generous deductions from the Federal and State governments) who have cellphones, more TVs than I do, a car, cable, gaming systems, etc. I’m sorry, but at that point I become an angry conservative who is pissed that I have to support these a$$holes and their gadgets, when I can’t even buy them. I think we need to distinguish between those who are legitimately poor and people who are just getting over. Most can agree that as a society, our moral obligation is to take care of those who can not fend for themselves or who are temporarily down on their luck. I have no problem sending my tax money to them. But to the person who has spent their life collecting food stamps, but also has an PS3– screw you. I just have a hard time believing that there are that many legitimately poor people in the US. I do think there are a lot of broke people in the US, just not poor.**

Also, most of those everyday taxes go to support state and local governments, not the federal government. Yet, if someone made too little to have any federal liabilities, somehow instead of paying $0 in taxes, they get a refund from the Feds from hundreds to thousands. How does that work out? At least in my case, my tax liability may be $2500 and my refund $1200, but I still payed $1300 in taxes, part of which was sent to support someone who paid nothing. They are literally being paid to do NOTHING!!! It would be quite different if government used that money to do something constructive and of benefit for the whole. But how does it benefit me to have my money sent to someone who paid nothing? And if you are not the recipient, how does it benefit you? Short answer: It doesn’t.

As for SS and medicare payroll taxes: that was nothing but giant pyramid scheme from the jump. We all know that. And, “theoretically”, it’s supposed to have an equalizing effect for the very poor when they leave the workforce. However, just because the government took that money and sucked it down the drain, is no reason to punish more people with higher taxes. And it shouldn’t give people like Obama and the Dems an excuse to demonize the rich because they aren’t paying “their fair share”. Which, according to the stats, is BS.

Mr. Steyn, whose argument (regardless of what Mr. Steyn himself thinks about the big picture) seems to say that I need to send even more money that I don’t have to the government, so that I can feel more invested in what it does.

I don’t think that was the crux of his argument. The argument is that you can not sustain a government of this size (and growing) for much longer with 10% of the population paying 73% of the federal income tax. It does not work. It’s not done to demonize people who do not pay, but to highlight a sobering reality– WE ARE BROKE, and the Federal government is too large. We can’t keep asking rich people to foot the bill to: pay for the roads, military, education, medical treatment for the poor and old, subsidies for the poor/old and disabled, etc. And then on top of that, they also have to pay to send working person X a couple thousand in a refund, in addition to help working person X buy health insurance. And if Cap ‘N Trade goes through, they are likely to help working person X buy new appliances. At a certain point, those rich people will find all sorts of ways to hide their money and, at the worst, move their money out of the US.

**Also when you consider how poverty is defined, one could make the case that poverty in America (in comparison to others in the world) is virtually non-existent. And, do you realize how badly I want a PS3? Yes, I have PS3 envy.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/fisheronpoverty.html

xax on April 12, 2010 at 5:08 PM

I think we need to distinguish between those who are legitimately poor and people who are just getting over.

xax on April 12, 2010 at 5:08 PM

That’s the problem with Government charity. Charity needs to be subjective for the very reason you listed, but government cannot be subjective. It’s the flaw in the system, and why it must always create abuse and resentment.

DFCtomm on April 12, 2010 at 6:00 PM

Bubba Redneck on April 12, 2010 at 1:16 AM

So property owners are the only one that pay property taxes? So when a landlord determines rent for a certain piece of property, property taxes are never included in that number. If we’re going to throw this argument around, lets at least be honest. Saying only property owners should vote is just stupid.

jack herman on April 12, 2010 at 9:41 AM

Tenants can choose not to rent or not to rent from a particular landlord without punishment. Try not paying property taxes and see where that gets you.

Who does not rent for a profit?

Bubba Redneck on April 12, 2010 at 6:20 PM

If you work, you need to pay SOMETHING. The Fair Tax is the best system I have seen.

BierManVA on April 12, 2010 at 7:01 PM

The American Dream is Dead
I always thought the American dream was to own a home. But with property taxes forever increasing one ends up paying a “mortgage” forever.

People in states like california who paid for decades property taxes, supposedly for education, have had to sell because their property increased in value and never mind their children have long ago grown and moved away.

I would happily consider an education mortgage that would end one day, but the bottom line is that we should be able to one day own our homes/property without continued education taxes since we don’t forever owe to educate our/other children.

Doesn’t it make sense that there is some limit to what we owe the community for owning a home? We pay yearly for HOA, and perhaps it makes sense to pay for some service like roads, but the school district taxes amount to nothing less than a forever rent for our own homes as Mark Steyn notes.

topspin67 on April 12, 2010 at 10:50 PM

CK you wrote a story like a little girl whining about conservatives complaining about the 1/2 population not paying any income taxes. That means 1/2 the population is on welfare or sitting on their dead asses receiving some kind of benefit. Alright McLoud mouth, if everyone pays federal income tax, they then have a stake in lowering the stupid thing. If you’re concerned about paying too much taxes, then your a good man. Most other people who pay no income tax don’t give a damn about lowering it. I think your a libertarian nobody or whatever the hell you call yourself trying to pick an argument with Mark Steyn lol. Doctor Zero and his columns will be picked up for discussion off this blog. Yours will not.

Humphrey007 on April 13, 2010 at 4:37 PM

If you work, you need to pay SOMETHING. The Fair Tax is the best system I have seen.

BierManVA on April 12, 2010 at 7:01 PM

You want to know if someone’s tax proposal is fair? Just ask him. If he says it’s fair, you know you’re dealing with a crook.
- “Groucho”

MB4 on April 13, 2010 at 10:28 PM

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