Conyers: O-Care is constitutional because of the “Good and Welfare Clause”

posted at 7:00 pm on March 23, 2010 by Allahpundit

More fun from CNS News, which has been pressing Democrats on the constitutional question for months and as often as not receiving headache-inducing answers like this. (When asked, Madam Speaker wittily retorted “Are you serious?” and went on her merry way.) There is, of course, no such thing as the Good and Welfare Clause, but if the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee can’t be bothered to read the bills he’s voting for, I guess it’s too much to expect him to read the Constitution too. There is such a thing as the General Welfare Clause in Congress’s power to tax and spend, which I assume is what he’s banking on. Is he right? Orin Kerr, with a heavy heart, says … probably:

In my view, there is a less than 1% chance that courts will invalidate the individual mandate as exceeding Congress’s Article I power. I tend to doubt the issue will get to the Supreme Court: The circuits will be splitless, I expect, and the Supreme Court will decline to hear the case. In the unlikely event a split arises and the Court does take it, I would expect a 9–0 (or possibly 8–1) vote to uphold the individual mandate.

Blogging about such issues tends to bring out some unhappy responses, so let me be clear about a few things: (a) I don’t like the individual mandate, (b) if I were a legislator, I wouldn’t have voted for it, (c) I don’t like modern commerce clause doctrine, (d) if I were magically made a Supreme Court Justice in the mid 20th century, I wouldn’t have supported the expansion of the commerce clause so that it covers, well, pretty much everything, (e) I agree that the individual mandate exceeds an originalist understanding of the Commerce Clause, and (f) I agree that legislators and the public are free to interpret the Constitution differently than the courts and to vote against (or ask their legislator to vote against) the legislation on that basis.

He’s totally right that if the Supremes follow their insanely expansive precedents about the Commerce Clause, O-Care should be fine. Even so, I’m skeptical that it’ll be as easy as he thinks. Part of the reason is political — as the legal realists cynically said, “the law is what the judge had for breakfast,” and five conservative justices will find a mandate hard to digest — but part of it is legal too. After the Raich decision, this is their last chance to draw any sort of line in the sand on the Commerce Clause. If Congress can direct you to buy certain goods and services, its economic reach via the CC will be so enormous as to all but swallow the concept of enumerated powers. Law prof Richard Esenberg:

The commerce power has certainly become capacious. Even lawyers whose last exposure to Constitutional Law was in law school are vaguely familiar with the ways in which the commerce power had been used to reach activity bearing, at best, a weak family resemblance to the transaction of business across state lines. Most recently, in Gonzales v. Raich, the Court held that Congress can prohibit persons from growing and consuming marijuana at home because of its posited impact on interstate traffic in weed.

Still, the individual mandate may be different. Professor Barnett writes that “[w]hile Congress has used its taxing power to fund Social Security and Medicare, never before has it used its commerce power to mandate that an individual person engage in an economic transaction with a private company.” It’s one thing to be subject to regulation because you are providing for yourself what you would otherwise buy in an interstate market. It’s quite another thing to argue that, because your refusal to consume a product may affect interstate commerce (if the young and healthy do not insure, the old and sick will have to pay more), you can be made to buy it…

It will be tragic [if the Court upholds O-Care] because the notion of a Congress limited by the scope of its enumerated powers will have finally suffered the coup de grace. The Bill of Rights (once famously – and now ironically – thought to be unnecessary given the structural limits on the power of the national government) will become the only limitation on the power of Congress. If Congress can require you to buy health insurance because of the ways in which your uncovered existence effects interstate commerce or because it can tax you in an effort to force you to do anything old thing it wants you to, it is hard to see what – save some other constitutional restriction – it cannot require you to do – or prohibit you from doing.

Quite so, and the stakes won’t be lost on Roberts and company. That’s not to say we’ll win — if I had to bet, I’d guess that Kennedy will cave to the left — but my hunch is that we’re looking at a 5-4 decision. What could go wrong?

Blowback

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canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:29 PM

They can have my rice when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. Or something like that. ;-}

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:33 PM

jdawg: For some inexplicable reason I can see that!!!!

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM

What about the current bill, er, law that BO signed? Of course, anything could be deemed a “health risk”, but I’m wondering about actual language.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:31 PM

Your guess is as good as mine. That’s what REALLY irks me about this whole deal-we don’t even know what the eff is in it!

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM

This entire country and it’s socialist government is freaking insane. “Idiocracy” is upon us and we cannot escape it.

rplat on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM

I’d rather go to jail.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:31 PM

I stated this on a parenting forum yesterday – that I’d rather go to jail than pay a fine or buy mandated health insurance, as I believe this to be blatantly unconstitutional. I was told that my children need to be taken away, as obviously I’m incompetant, unloving, and abusive – because I am against this abomination, and would refuse mandatory insurance.

I don’t know what to think anymore – I just know I’m angry, and I want to do something about it.

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:36 PM

aero on March 23, 2010 at 7:33 PM

Heard something about that on the radio today. I don’t know. Heck, I’ll take anything that stops this communist coup from happening.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:36 PM

Your guess is as good as mine. That’s what REALLY irks me about this whole deal-we don’t even know what the eff is in it!

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM

Well, it’s been publicly available for months. You have no one to blame but yourself.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590:

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

receiving headache-inducing answers like this. (When asked, Madam Speaker wittily retorted “Are you serious?” and went on her merry way.)

That intolerable excuse for a women has gotten so bad that just the thought of her being outside of a prison cell makes me feel like all my teeth need root canals.

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

I’d rather go to jail.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:31 PM

Are there enough cells to house all of us?

OmahaConservative on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

I don’t know what to think anymore – I just know I’m angry, and I want to do something about it.

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:36 PM

+1000

But I don’t know what to do or how to do it…

cibolo on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

Don’t be depressed. Get angry. Get resolute. This is our country they’re destroying, and our kids futures. We need to get mean – I mean real mad-dog red-faced, ready to kick @$$ and take names mean.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:22 PM

I will if I must, but I really don’t want to: most of my friends are liberals, and already this issue has taken its toll on a few of those friendships. How do you remain friends with someone whose life philosophy is to destroy everything you value? I just hate that we’ve entered into an age when I will feel separated from my countrymen, not alone but never again with the feeling of national love and unity like after 9/11. Two Americas, indeed.

Being angry is exhausting. I’ve felt furious for so long that I don’t even feel like myself any more. I’ll hang tough, though. Thanks for the encouragement.

Animator Girl on March 23, 2010 at 7:38 PM

In my view, there is a less than 1% chance that courts will invalidate the individual mandate as exceeding Congress’s Article I power.

Then what would exceed it? Anything at all?

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:39 PM

A MANDATE on an individual to purchase a product, like health care, does not exist in the constitution as it is a form of slavery. Under no circumstances can ANY congress mandate indentured servitude onto the people.

I suspect that if, or when, this issue reaches the supreme court it will FAIL 9-0!

Yes, even Ginsburgh will not vote for slavery.

Freddy on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

That’s the House version, I don’t think that’s the version that got out of the Senate, or the version that was signed by the Pres.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

If this thing doesn’t get thrown out then all hell will break loose. There was a woman on Rush today that works in the industry and she gave it 3 years tops. She also said that come Jan. ’11 premiums will rise as much as 300% in order to cover all the mandates. Once that happens hello single payer. Then there is not stopping them on anything. You’re too fat no care for you. The food you serve in your restraunt is not healthy here is a menu of items we will allow you to serve. You sell too much junk food in your store you’re going to have to sell only what is on this approved list. It will never end we will lose all our freedoms. With this bill it’s not that we won’t have freedom as we know it, we won’t have freedom at all.

boomer on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

In my view, there is a less than 1% chance that courts will invalidate the individual mandate as exceeding Congress’s Article I power.

And you are whom? And what are your credentials?

rplat on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

That’s the House version, I don’t think that’s the version that got out of the Senate, or the version that was signed by the Pres.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

That’s the bill the President signed.

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:41 PM

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

That’s the House version, I don’t think that’s the version that got out of the Senate, or the version that was signed by the Pres.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

Never mind, just looked at the site, and it says, “signed by BO”

gulp.

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:41 PM

Lake Superior Northern Rice!:)

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:29 PM

Ya’ll growin’ rice up there?

thomasaur on March 23, 2010 at 7:42 PM

I bet there is a cell adjacent to his wife’s where Conyers could relax for a few years…

Idiot, a humpty Dumpty. Alcee Hastings is a venal man, but he was honest about the “rules”.

Harry Schell on March 23, 2010 at 7:42 PM

I might have picked Kennedy to cave to the left before Barry wagged his nicotine-stained finger at the Supremes during the SOTU address. My money says Kennedy and the four conservatives will be only too happy to remind the fake Constitutional law professor who actually wears the black robe — and reads the Constitution.

Rational Thought on March 23, 2010 at 7:42 PM

Animator Girl on March 23, 2010 at 7:38 PM

I understand how you feel. I’ve lost a few good friendships over this too – I mean, someone I dated in high school is an out-and-out Marxist, and while we have a bit in common otherwise, I can’t handle even mundane conversation with him anymore. I don’t understand how so many of my friends, my age, can be this stupid… that just makes me more angry.

The worst part of this is the constant heartburn. I eat antacids like they’re candy.

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:44 PM

And you are whom? And what are your credentials?

rplat on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

Professor Orin Kerr, GW Law, JD from Harvard, clerked for Justice Kennedy. He may know his stuff.

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:44 PM

I’d rather go to jail.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:31 PM

Are there enough cells to house all of us?

OmahaConservative on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

It may be coming to this -

This whole [Emperor Obama/Queen Pelosi] world Is one big prison yard. Some of us are prisoners The rest of us are guards.
- Bob Dylan

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:44 PM

This entire country and it’s socialist government is freaking insane. “Idiocracy” is upon us and we cannot escape it.

rplat on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM

rplat: Speaking of Socialism,this is from the Annula Radio
and Television Correspondence Dinner!!

The joke,why is Tofu better than Centralized
Socialistic Economy!!!!!
==========================================================

Hu Cares
————-

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=20033

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM

Conyers may have meant another document because I think he actually said constafooshunal.

viking01 on March 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM

Well, it’s been publicly available for months. You have no one to blame but yourself.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590:

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

That’s right… it was the unchanged Senate bill, just as GOA said.
CRRAAAAAAAAAPPPPP.

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:46 PM

Amazing how under the interpretation of the left that being born is interstate commerce… and the baby must have health insurance at birth. Born with the card in-hand, no doubt, so as to ensure that their coverage begins properly.

Amazing what these doofus do-gooders get up to when they feel so good spending other people’s money. And to think the Republic lasted all this time without this monstrosity. And just before WWII you had none of this health insurance business to deal with beyond catastrophic care… and yet, somehow, the Republic survived before that, too. Strange how long the Republic survived without SSA, without Medicare/Medicaid, without Obamacare. Why just how did we ever survive without the ever-loving state to tell us how to lead our lives?

ajacksonian on March 23, 2010 at 7:47 PM

Ooops,rplat,it comes in at,about 1:48:)

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:47 PM

The actual wording in the Constitution is:

promote the general Welfare,…”

That’s promote, not “provide”.

“PROMOTE the general Welfare”, as in to encourage, not to give.

The Constitution specifically provides for the common defense. It does not “provide the general Welfare”.

If it’s “provide”, then where’s my free food?

ZenDraken on March 23, 2010 at 7:47 PM

“The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States.”

Read and learn:

http://law.jrank.org/pages/7116/General-Welfare.html

ROCnPhilly on March 23, 2010 at 7:47 PM

Are there enough cells to house all of us?

OmahaConservative on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

Judging from past socialist experiments, most of us will wind up in a muddy ditch with a single bullet through the back of the skull.

Rebar on March 23, 2010 at 7:49 PM

Let’s be clear about what this mandate is. Some of the commenters are apparently confused. They’re not requiring people to buy a low cost catastrophic policy priced on the basis of risk. The army of healthy young people that this will affect will be forced to pay for a full coverage policy priced no differently than one for a sick 50 year old. Hence, the argument that we’re just making sure they’re not freeloading on society in event they have a visit to the emergency room does not apply. The whole purpose of the mandate is to provide the insurance companies with enough money to cover the old people, and people with pre-existing conditions (supposedly).

chris999 on March 23, 2010 at 7:49 PM

viking01 on March 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM

Well, yeah, he was referring to the constafooshun ob da yoonitud steaks. Don’t you know nuttin? ;-}

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:49 PM

That’s right… it was the unchanged Senate bill, just as GOA said.
CRRAAAAAAAAAPPPPP.

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:46 PM

But you didn’t read it and obviously don’t know what’s in it.

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:50 PM

Emperor Obama/Queen Pelosi
King George is dead, long live the new King and Queen

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM

I don’t know what to think anymore – I just know I’m angry, and I want to do something about it.

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:36 PM

I am 100% with you on that.

You’re a good mother. Those people are idiots and don’t know a thing about you or what you and your husband have done for this country.

Maybe being thrown in jail won’t be the best thing for your kids, but if they can force us to buy this, what else can they force on us? What else will they be able to enforce on your children?

Are there enough cells to house all of us?

OmahaConservative on March 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM

Gitmo will be available. I hear they serve nice orange chicken dishes.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM

Lake Superior Northern Rice!:)

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:29 PM
========================================
Ya’ll growin’ rice up there?

thomasaur on March 23, 2010 at 7:42 PM

thomasaur: Thats what my Canadian Beavers like,in their
natural habitat,besides,it attracts the moose,
once their in the patty field,ka-blewy,Moose
burgers!!(i kid):)

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM

Well, at least my state should finally be sending a Republican delegation to Washington as a result of this bill…hopefully.

BISMARCK, N.D. – Gov. John Hoeven today made this statement regarding the passage of the healthcare bill from the U.S. House:

“I’m disappointed in the House’s action today to pass the massive healthcare bill that puts government bureaucracy between you and your doctor. The bill will reduce Medicare by another $500 billion and create huge unfunded mandates for the states. This legislation does little to address the real problems of healthcare, which is affordability and accessibility.

“This is not the kind of reform the citizens of our state or our nation want. We need reform that empowers people to choose their own health insurance and their own healthcare providers, and that means making the kinds of incremental reforms that makes healthcare more affordable and accessible like tort reform, portability of insurance, transparency in providing for medical services, more competition among insurance companies, restricting denial for pre-existing conditions, tax credits and expanded health savings accounts, among others.”

In addition, Governor Hoeven is working with Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem on a possible constitutional challenge to the law based on mandates it requires of both the states and individuals.

FARGO – Rick Berg denounced the healthcare bill passed by Congress last evening with Earl Pomeroy’s support. Pomeroy’s vote helped Nancy Pelosi pass the legislation in the final stages of voting.

Berg, a candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives said, “This bill adds 100,000 new government employees who will tell insurance companies what they can cover, and doctors how they can treat patients.” Berg added, “When it comes to healthcare, we need to be empowering patients, not the government.”

Berg went on to say, “$500 billion in new taxes and $1 Trillion in new government spending is not what our Nation needs when we are facing 10% unemployment and record deficits.”

Berg outlined his opposition to the bill is five key points. The bill includes:

A trillion dollars in new federal government spending.
Raises taxes by over $500 billion dollars.
Establishes a huge new government bureaucracy to oversee healthcare.
Cuts Medicare funding by $500 billion without any reduction of underlying costs.
And includes unfunded Medicaid mandates for already cash strapped states.

True and meaningful reform would not have included backroom, sweetheart deals to garner support, and would not have been done in a single piece of legislation. Most importantly, it would have included:

Lawsuit reform to reduce liability insurance and defensive medical testing.
Interstate compacts to increase competition.
Reduced regulation and mandates.
Fairer prescription drug prices.
Tax credits to help low income families buy insurance.

“This is more government control over the private sector; it’s a job killer at a time when we need job creation,” Berg said.

If they keep this up I might actually start to feel optimistic about the NDGOP.

Cylor on March 23, 2010 at 7:52 PM

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:44 PM

Kennedy voted with the majority in Wyeth v. Levine, which restricted what had been heretofore a broad federal pre-emption doctrine.

Wethal on March 23, 2010 at 7:52 PM

Don’t have any kids while this bill is law, or you’ll be subjected to this part of the bill. My God, this is scary!

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:7:./temp/~c111q02ljY:e698105:

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:53 PM

chris999 on March 23, 2010 at 7:49 PM

Is that clearly written somewhere? That was my belief as well, but I haven’t seen anything that would show exactly what would be required with mandated coverage.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:55 PM

Cylor on March 23, 2010 at 7:52 PM

ND is supposedly conservative. Why were they sending Dorgan and Pomeroy to congress? To get welfare farm subsidies?

chris999 on March 23, 2010 at 7:56 PM

I don’t understand how so many of my friends, my age, can be this stupid… that just makes me more angry.

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:44 PM

So this guy is driving down the Interstate, listening to the radio. A special bulletin comes on: “Attention drivers, exercise extra caution: there’s a madman driving in the wrong direction.” To which the guy says “One madman? They are all driving in the wrong direction!”

factoid on March 23, 2010 at 7:57 PM

The voters of Michigan ought to be thoroughly ashamed of their pathetic choices of those they have elevated to national office: John Dingell, John Conyers, Bart Stupak, Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow. Each one an ignoramus; each one in office far too long!

ya2daup on March 23, 2010 at 7:57 PM

Gitmo will be available. I hear they serve nice orange chicken dishes.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM

I could use a vacation. Might as well be Club Gitmo.

I appreciate your words. That conversation just rubbed me the wrong way, and I’ve been mulling it over ever since. It’s movie time here, so I might not be back – just wanted to say thanks. : )

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:58 PM

But you didn’t read it and obviously don’t know what’s in it.

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 7:50 PM

Wow, are you just trying to be a d!ck or what? I called, faxed, emailed, honked, wrote, face booked, twittered, argued with friends and relatives, donated, did EVERYTHING I could to stop this piece of crap. Sorry if I can’t recite legalese word for word. Perhaps you should enlighten us all with your knowledge since you obviously read it and know exactly what’s in it.

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:58 PM

If we don’t replace these left wing idiots quickly the Constitution will be shredded beyond recognition which I’m sure would be justified under the Good and Welfare Clause.

rplat on March 23, 2010 at 7:58 PM

Don’t have any kids while this bill is law, or you’ll be subjected to this part of the bill. My God, this is scary!

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:53 PM

Look who will be targeted by the government snoops:

(F) Eligible families that have users of tobacco products in the home.

(I) Eligible families who, or that include individuals who, are serving or formerly served in the Armed Forces, including such families that have members of the Armed Forces who have had multiple deployments outside of the United States.

Scary, indeed!

ROCnPhilly on March 23, 2010 at 8:00 PM

I called, faxed, emailed, honked, wrote, face booked, twittered, argued with friends and relatives, donated, did EVERYTHING I could to stop this piece of crap.

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:58 PM

That’s what REALLY irks me about this whole deal-we don’t even know what the eff is in it!

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 PM

You just called, emailed, honked, wrote, facebooked, twittered, argued with friends and relatives, donated, and did everything you could to stop a bill, and you don’t even know what’s in it.

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 8:01 PM

So this guy is driving down the Interstate, listening to the radio. A special bulletin comes on: “Attention drivers, exercise extra caution: there’s a madman driving in the wrong direction.” To which the guy says “One madman? They are all driving in the wrong direction!”

factoid on March 23, 2010 at 7:57 PM

LMAO . . . thanks for the levity, I needed that.

rplat on March 23, 2010 at 8:01 PM

Many have described Islam as more than religion; that it is all encompassing. Ameican government under the rule of Obamaism/Pelosism seems to be a lot like Islam.

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 8:03 PM

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 7:55 PM

Sorry, I don’t have a link at this time. I think the term is called “community rating” where everyone who applies for health insurance is charged nearly the same price, regardless of age, gender,etc. I did read, however, that the younger population would be forced to sign up for this purpose.

chris999 on March 23, 2010 at 8:04 PM

You just called, emailed, honked, wrote, facebooked, twittered, argued with friends and relatives, donated, and did everything you could to stop a bill, and you don’t even know what’s in it.

Proud Rino on March 23, 2010 at 8:01 PM

And neither do you, apparently.

NTWR on March 23, 2010 at 8:06 PM

Rep. Conyers should retire so he can spend more time seeing his wife during “visiting hours”…

Khun Joe on March 23, 2010 at 8:09 PM

viking01 on March 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM

Well, yeah, he was referring to the constafooshun ob da yoonitud steaks. Don’t you know nuttin? ;-}

jdawg on March 23, 2010 at 7:49 PM

More puzzling is he probably meant: Dose Waygu Steaks of Uh-meh-kah suhvd way up deah in da ska on dat deah Scah-foase-wun whah deys peeps down deah Ma’hattun run lahk deys gots dose poh-lees afta ‘um.

viking01 on March 23, 2010 at 8:09 PM

just wanted to say thanks. : )

Anna on March 23, 2010 at 7:58 PM

Anytime. I’m glad you’re on our side. :)

Sorry, I don’t have a link at this time. I think the term is called “community rating” where everyone who applies for health insurance is charged nearly the same price, regardless of age, gender,etc. I did read, however, that the younger population would be forced to sign up for this purpose.

chris999 on March 23, 2010 at 8:04 PM

That makes sense, but was there anything in that, that said specific plans would be necessary?

If you ever do find a link, let me know. I’ll be searching as well.

I was telling my husband that this would happen, but he seemed to believe the government wouldn’t even be able to tell health insurance companies what they can charge, which just doesn’t seem near as unconstitutional to me as forcing people to buy something they don’t want.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 8:10 PM

Emperor Obama/Queen Pelosi
King George is dead, long live the new King and Queen

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM

MB4:)
================================================
I Grow Fatigued With The Proletariat

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=18468

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 8:10 PM

Emperor Obama/Queen Pelosi
King George is dead, long live the new King and Queen

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM

MB4:)
======================

I Grow Fatigued With The Proletariat

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=18468

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 8:11 PM

Crap,Sorry,double post!

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 8:12 PM

If Congress can require you to buy health insurance because of the ways in which your uncovered existence effects interstate commerce or because it can tax you in an effort to force you to do anything old thing it wants you to, it is hard to see what – save some other constitutional restriction – it cannot require you to do – or prohibit you from doing.

Bad news on the doorstep
I couldn’t take one more step
I can’t remember if I cried
When I read about what this congress did decide
But something touched me deep inside
The day the Constitution died

MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 8:13 PM

Ignorance is alive and well in the communist minds of America, isn’t it?

They overstepped their bounds. They took what they should not have taken. If this is upheld in the courts, then this is no longer the United States of America, and the constitution is lost.

Time will tell, but if the court rules to favor this, under constitutional means….then I might as well move elsewhere. If this isn’t the America I knew, and love, I want no part of what’s coming down the pike.

capejasmine on March 23, 2010 at 8:16 PM

A request for any aspiring Presidential candidates who might be reading this:

When a reporter asks you about litmus tests for SCOTUS justices, tell them that your test for them is that they will read the powers of the government in general, and the authority granted by the Commerce Clause specifically, as narrowly as possible, while reading the rights of the people as broadly as possible.

Thank you.

JohnGalt23 on March 23, 2010 at 8:16 PM

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 8:11 PM

Ya know….I don’t see Michelle being ok with this. lol She strikes me as the kind of woman who has to be top broad….and Pelosi is getting all the attention people should be lavishing on her. Cat fight soon? LOL

capejasmine on March 23, 2010 at 8:19 PM

Stupak goes under the bus in record time!

On Health Care Day, Obama Skips Signing Executive Order on Abortion; Stupak, on Defense, Compares Order to Emancipation Proclamation

President Obama signed the Senate health care bill into law Tuesday. He did not sign the executive order on abortion negotiated with Michigan Democratic Congressman Bart Stupak in an 11th-hour arrangement that may well have saved the entire health care reform effort.

A White House official told Fox, Obama will not sign the Executive Order Tuesday and has set no specific date to do so. Stupak predicted Obama would sign the order later this week. The White House said only that Obama would sign the order “soon.”…

INC on March 23, 2010 at 8:19 PM

It may be coming to this -
This whole [Emperor Obama/Queen Pelosi] world Is one big prison yard. Some of us are prisoners The rest of us are guards.
- Bob Dylan
MB4 on March 23, 2010 at 7:44 PM

now now, we all know it came to that a long time ago.

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:21 PM

now now, we all know it came to that a long time ago.

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:21 PM

Does this mean you don’t support the individual mandate?

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 8:23 PM

JohnGalt23 on March 23, 2010 at 8:16 PM

+1

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:24 PM

Cylor on March 23, 2010 at 7:52 PM
ND is supposedly conservative. Why were they sending Dorgan and Pomeroy to congress? To get welfare farm subsidies?

chris999 on March 23, 2010 at 7:56 PM

Yup.
A lot of farmer here I know in SW ND survive by milking the govt subsidy programs.
However, if you’re a crappy farmer, you can only get by with that for so long.
But you really cannot farm anymore without taking subsidies. The govt has manipulated prices in various ways so much so that selling crops is not like selling any other product that is produced.
Cattlemen have resisted govt intrusion, but would like only one thing from the govt: to enforce the Stockyards & Packer Act. But that, too, is a hughe intrusion of govt.
Really, the stupid farmers & ranchers screwed themselves over by selling off the farm/ranch & not taking the critters to the sale barns.
Sale barns foster competition.
But now when we take our calves to the barn every fall, there’s only a handful of buyers, where years ago there were probably hundreds.
And since there is such concentration in the packing industry, they have only to wait until the feeders are desparate enough to take what they’re offering bcs the packers ‘own’ cattle through forward contracts & really don’t have to worry about buying more to slaughter.
I am afraid the ranching indistry is on its way toward subsidies to survive all the govt manipulation.
It’s perverse.

Badger40 on March 23, 2010 at 8:25 PM

Does this mean you don’t support the individual mandate?
Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 8:23 PM

precisely

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:26 PM

BOR is dealing with the constitutional issues with the cute Wiehl and the hot Guilfoyle. They saw SCOTUS will say constitutional.

There has to be some limit on the commerce clause.

BuckeyeSam on March 23, 2010 at 8:26 PM

INC on March 23, 2010 at 8:19 PM

Obama to Stupak: “Of course I’ll respect you in the morning.”

BuckeyeSam on March 23, 2010 at 8:28 PM

And as far as Hoeven goes, I voted for him as gov & will vote for him again, but he teed me off when he accepted the stimulus $$.
For God’s sake ND has a surplus & he should never have accepted it IMHO

Badger40 on March 23, 2010 at 8:30 PM

precisely

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:26 PM

Then I won’t argue with you.

Esthier on March 23, 2010 at 8:30 PM

Badger40 on March 23, 2010 at 8:25 PM

Either way, let Nebraska or Kansas or wherever tax their own citizens to subsidize their economies. If you’re gonna send people to congress that fight for states rights and resist national, centralized schemes, they can’t turn around and siphon national money.

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM

Screw it… if you can’t beat’em, join’em….

In 2013, President Palin and the Republican Congress should ram through a law mandating all citizens purchase a copy of Going Rogue or pay a fine to the IRS equal to 2% of AGI, per year.

BPD on March 23, 2010 at 8:35 PM

Wait till the gay community discover that they can be regulated due to their adverse impact on health care costs.

kurtzz3 on March 23, 2010 at 8:38 PM

they are going to get around it by eliminating the private companies in the intervening 4 years before they go into effect, rendering the suits moot and installing single payer… . .you can almost hear the wheels grinding in their heads

Willie on March 23, 2010 at 8:39 PM

Is there one Dependocrat who is not a complete, drooling, black-hearted buffoon? Any trolling leftards are free to offer a name. Anyone?

Western_Civ on March 23, 2010 at 8:39 PM

Once you start thinking about it, the Soviet Union comes to mind. If the Feds can justify something as onerous as this “healthcare” bill under the General Welfare clause, then they can justify anything.

peski on March 23, 2010 at 7:16 PM

I recently graduated from law school and I’m waiting for the California Bar results.

Its amazing how much liberals little understand the Constitution. They quote the general welfare clause as if it were some magical clause that will justify ANY government program they want.

This is what we get when liberal logic combined with ignorance on the Constitution from our politicians.

Conservative Samizdat on March 23, 2010 at 9:00 PM

Poster boy intellectual giant from the absolutely worthless, corrupt and incompetent Democrat Party.

Sideshow Congress trumpeted by a Carnival Barker president leading around the media dancing bear.

NoDonkey on March 23, 2010 at 9:07 PM

They know nothing but power.

And will learn what the Power of the People means.

This November.

VOTE OUT THE STUPENDOUSLY STUPID S.O.B.’s IN 2010!

profitsbeard on March 23, 2010 at 9:25 PM

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 8:11 PM
========================================
Ya know….I don’t see Michelle being ok with this. lol She strikes me as the kind of woman who has to be top broad….and Pelosi is getting all the attention people should be lavishing on her. Cat fight soon? LOL

capejasmine on March 23, 2010 at 8:19 PM

capejasmine: The Belle of the Ball,*meow-hiss* cat fight
for sure,haha!:)

canopfor on March 23, 2010 at 9:27 PM

The key to this issue in particular, and to the rampant trashing of the constitution in general is article V. Force a constitutional convention, and amend and severely restrict the general welfare clause. Which is why I think the tea party’s main focus should be local sn state governments. take back the states, then force the fed into line. you need 2/3′s of all state legislators to force a convention.

johngalt on March 23, 2010 at 9:37 PM

I eagerly await Professor Troll6′s “cogent” legal analysis of this proposal.

I actually think we stand a better chance of defeating this bill in the courts on the basis that it’s an overreach of the Commerce Clause power, or perhaps even more on point, that it violates privacy and equal protection rights under the 14th Amendment, than we do challenging it on 10th Amendment grounds. However, I am all for attacking from all sides.

NoLeftTurn on March 23, 2010 at 9:51 PM

PappyD61 on March 23, 2010 at 7:09 PM

They’ve been hinting around at confiscating our retirement plans since the day after Dr. Utopia was elected. I’m prepared to take up arms over that one. They will outright steal my money over my dead body. I would sooner convert it all to gold coin and flee the country for good.

NoLeftTurn on March 23, 2010 at 9:53 PM

they can’t turn around and siphon national money.

ernesto on March 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM

I agree.
Dorgan Conrad & Pomeroy come home & talk to us about crap & when you think they are really going to make the right decision, they vote party line. Which is what I’ve always expected they would do & is why I never voted for them.
Hoeven is probably some kind of RINO, but I haven’t figured him out yet.
He was, however, the president of the only state owned bank in the US.

Badger40 on March 23, 2010 at 10:19 PM

When the elderly are left without family or source of income, where do they go? Into a nursing facility, paid for by…. that’s right, the federal government.

Thus, they impose a “cost” on the system, yes? Or, they “could” do so, yes?

So, can’t the federal government require every citizen to buy assisted living and nursing home insurance, as well as health insurance?

How about flood insurance?

Locust insurance?

Tornado insurance?

Because, if you don’t have it and something should happen…

How is it possible for one to become a Supreme Court justice without at least a passing understanding of the Constitution that created the Court? Not to mention some passing respect for the document?

IndieDogg on March 23, 2010 at 10:29 PM

BPD on March 23, 2010 at 8:35 PM

Better yet, everyone has to buy a gun.

boomer on March 23, 2010 at 10:41 PM

I love these posts by AP.

“Let’s point out how hopeless resistance is”.

Throw up a thread that basically says that this socialist take over of America is inevitable and the American citizen has no legal recourse to undo this injustice. Then…..wait with the ban hammer for anyone to remotely suggest that the American citizen do what the founding fathers did when they had had enough of tyranny.

What is your point here AP? What are you trying to accomplish?

Do you just enjoy rubbing our noses in this?

What say you AP?

What would YOU suggest we do now?

Give up? Surrender and accept a socialist America?

You’ve already fired your warning shot to me when I posted lyrics to a song on this blog. I follow the rules of the blog. What rules do you have to follow? Or do you, like congress, make them up as you go along?

I am quite positive that if James Madison and company were able to post on this blog, you would ban them the second they suggested anything other than Kumbaya diplomacy.

So for once, rather than posting the “I’m not so sure” threads, why not share with all of us what YOU would do.

This is a loaded thread. You know damn well where 99% of the regulars here stand. Yet you persist in baiting us.

We all know where Ed stands on issues. You………..not so much.

I would appreciate an answer to this:

Why was the Revolution the right thing to do?

P.S. This is the last AP thread I even bother to read.

Talon on March 23, 2010 at 10:42 PM

johngalt on March 23, 2010 at 9:37 PM

There is a danger in that. They could write in things that neither you nor I want. Oh, wait, they don’t pay attention anyway.

boomer on March 23, 2010 at 10:42 PM

Hybrids – General Welfare
Rooftop Solar Panels – General Welfare
Organic foods – General Welfare
Mandatory Fitness Programs – General Welfare
I could keep going. The Supreme court needs to put a stop to it now, or it never will.

redshirt on March 23, 2010 at 7:08 PM

How about this one?
NO private gun ownership…..gun powder residue can impact your lungs.

VikingGoneWild on March 23, 2010 at 10:45 PM

A MANDATE on an individual to purchase a product, like health care, does not exist in the constitution as it is a form of slavery.
Freddy on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

Slavery might be viewed as a little extreme, but this does fit the definition of Serfdom.

Serfdom is the socio-economic status of unfree peasants under feudalism, and specifically relates to Manorialism.

Serfdom was the enforced labour of serfs on the fields of landowners, in return for protection and the right to work on their leased fields.

Serfdom involved not only work in fields, but also various other activities like forestry, mining, transportation (both land and river-based), and crafts. Manors formed the basic unit of society during this period, and the lord and his serfs were bound legally, economically, and socially.

When the government can order you, backed up with penalties if you don’t, to buy ANY thing, simply because you EXIST! then you no longer have free will.

DSchoen on March 23, 2010 at 11:04 PM

It will never end we will lose all our freedoms. With this bill it’s not that we won’t have freedom as we know it, we won’t have freedom at all.

boomer on March 23, 2010 at 7:40 PM

Reminds me of the ending of “Escape from LA”

PLISSKEN: Got a smoke?

MALLOY: You’re gonna have to learn to respect the law, Snake. The United States is a no-smoking nation. No smoking, no drinking, do drugs, no women unless you’re married, no guns, no foul language. It’s a brand new day
for you, Snake.

Where’s Snake when you need him?

VikingGoneWild on March 23, 2010 at 11:19 PM

Better yet, everyone has to buy a gun.

boomer on March 23, 2010 at 10:41 PM

You could almost say there’s a rational basis for that, contained in the power of Congress to organize, arm, and call up militias.

NoLeftTurn on March 24, 2010 at 12:15 AM

Hey John… hows Monica?

DANEgerus on March 24, 2010 at 12:38 AM

I will if I must, but I really don’t want to: most of my friends are liberals, and already this issue has taken its toll on a few of those friendships. How do you remain friends with someone whose life philosophy is to destroy everything you value? I just hate that we’ve entered into an age when I will feel separated from my countrymen, not alone but never again with the feeling of national love and unity like after 9/11. Two Americas, indeed.

Animator Girl on March 23, 2010 at 7:38 PM

The problem is that the “feeling of national love and unity” following 9/11 that you refer to was always an illusion. The other side was never sincere about it, any more than they are ever sincere about anything else save for their seething hatred for us and everything we believe in.

Friendship — real friendship — implies mutual respect. Not necessarily agreement, but at least a willingness to disagree peaceably, and not to let the disagreement color other aspects of your relationship.

As someone who lost MANY supposed “friendships” to political schism over the past decade, I can tell you with confidence that those people are not really your friends. I know, it sucks. And it can be very lonely. But sooner or later you just get sick and tired of being treated like a pariah every time you stand up for your convictions.

Eventually, I realized I was more lonely with those people than I was without them.

Cylor on March 24, 2010 at 6:19 AM

Has any ruler or government ever acted and NOT claim that they were acting to advance the “general welfare?” Did Mao, or Stalin or Hitler not claim there tyranny was for the “general welfare?”

Our Constitution was designed to limit the power of government. The “General Welfare” clause is not a blank check. It does not confer unlimited power to Congress. And it does not trump the bill of rights, including our right to property!

My own Congressman, David Price, responded to one of my e-mails with the same ignorant reply as Conyers. When our representatives recognize no checks on their power, our experiment in self-rule is dead. We are on the road to hell and it is indeed paved with good intentions to promote the “General Welfare.”

MJBrutus on March 24, 2010 at 6:20 AM

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