What Freedom Demands
posted at 10:12 am on March 22, 2010 by Doctor Zero
Tonight, self-appointed wise men in Washington are steamrolling the objections of sixty to seventy percent of the population, and forcing a massive health-care bill down our throats “for our own good.” Presumably the backroom deals, corrupt payoffs, Congressional Budget Office accounting tricks, threats of unconstitutional parliamentary maneuvers, and betrayals of principle are also for our own good. What do you know? Banana republics turn out to be the highest evolution of government – the only form of the State equipped to take proper care of its citizens, by lying to them and trapping them in legislative cages over their howling protests.
Tonight is not the end of the ObamaCare saga, but it does mark the beginning of a slow turn by the American ship of state. It doesn’t have to be a turn to the left. On the contrary, it could be the first overture in a rebirth of our commitment to freedom, and the last gasp of an exhausted statist ideology, long overdue for its disposal in the waste bin of history.
The decision is up to us. Our representatives will fight various legislative battles in the months to come… and then we will speak in November. As the voters of the United States ponder what to say, it would profit us to think long and hard about the freedom Democrats are trying to take from us tonight, and what freedom demands.
Yes, it makes demands. Freedom is not a gift. It is not given to you by the government, in a precise dosage that can be adjusted to match a politician’s diagnosis of what ails the body politic. Your forefathers won an impossible Revolution against an invincible foe to declare the self-evident truth that your rights descend from your Creator. Whether that Creator is a transcendent God, or a random combination of genetic material in the primordial soup, it is a power that existed before the first king assumed his throne, or the first president was elected. Liberty burns in your imagination, flows through your veins, and rings through your words.
This radiant idea has burned through all the bloody clouds of the last three centuries: you are not clay to be sculpted by the will of another. You are not a racially inferior inconvenience, to be marched into a concentration camp. You aren’t a class enemy to be exiled by dictators. You are not a disposable cog in the machinery of collectivist economics, or a mouth to be starved by the failure of collective agriculture. You are an American, and through a dereliction of their duty as elected representatives, the Democrats have forced you to choose whether you will retain the full measure of the honor and dignity your Constitution asserts for you.
If you choose to obey their demands, it will be the last such choice you make. Your opinion was disregarded on this travesty of a health-care bill. It will not be solicited in the future. Fifteen thousand new IRS agents will ensure that you comply with endless future “adjustments” to socialized insurance, until it mutates into socialist medicine, and bankrupts us along with the crushing weight of other unsustainable entitlements. On that dark day, you will be fighting battles, not making choices.
Like your muscles, heart, and lungs, freedom is a part of you, and it makes demands. You cannot exercise freedom in the absence of responsibility. That means you must accept the challenges of a complex, fast-moving world. You must exercise your influence in that world, and money is the medium of exchange that transforms your labor into your will. You have to demand the best return on your investments, and the best quality for your purchases. This requires education, to gather the information necessary for making wise decisions.
We are currently paying the price for decades of turning away from those demands, and trusting government to insure our quality of life. It’s understandable. The free market is huge and powerful, and it does not pause to adore the millions of individuals passing through it… and occasionally stumbling. We feel overwhelmed by the waves of information crashing around us. In the case of an arcane discipline like medicine, we don’t feel as if we understand it well enough to make informed decisions, and our will is expressed through an insurance system that has already been turned into an incomprehensible mess by government regulation. It would be so easy to let righteous politicians with limitless power and money take care of us, tapping into the vast fortunes of the super-rich for the benefit of all, and transforming health care into a “human right” – which means the little people won’t have to think about it any more.
If you are in thrall to this temptation, consider what you are being asked to surrender. Hidden in ObamaCare’s thousands of pages are countless legislative snares, and subsidies designed to convert your freedom into benefits for favored constituencies. The money drained from our economy into this health-care sinkhole will reduce your freedom – even when it’s money from the wallets of other people. That’s because a collapsing free market will eliminate choices and options you currently take for granted. Mandates that wipe out part-time employment will destroy services your family needs. Jobs shipped overseas to avoid crushing penalties are employment opportunities forever denied to you. Higher taxes on corporations slither down to you as elevated prices on goods you may no longer be able to afford.
A swelling government reduces the size of the private sector… the galaxy in which free Americans burn as stars. Common sense tells you that a nation with a gigantic government is less free. What is the proper name for a system in which the State controls everything, and the private sector is completely gone? Why should free men applaud heavy steps taken in that direction? What about the freedom of Bart Stupak’s constituents, who foolishly trusted him to resist the tyranny of forcing pro-life taxpayers to fund abortions? Today they watched Stupak’s honor shrivel into a meaningless piece of paper, offered by a compulsive liar, whose every commitment comes with an expiration date.
The call of freedom requires you to turn away easy solutions offered by corrupt politicians. It’s not a “solution” anyway – just the gateway to another, heavier imposition on your liberty down the line. If its authors believed otherwise, why would they use tricks and lies to chisel out a “deficit-neutral” ten-year forecast from the Congressional Budget Office? A free man dismisses such deception with contempt, and demands to know what happens in Year Eleven. A free woman looks at a “crisis” in a heavily regulated market and commands government to remove itself to undo the damage it has already caused. What is the final form of a State that is rewarded for its failures with more power? We already know that name, don’t we?
Tonight, the Democrat Party declares war on the American middle class. They are gambling on the forced creation of an entitlement we’ll be too exhausted and weary to reject – no matter how poor its quality, corrupt its inception, or unbearable its cost. We do have one last chance to strike this down. There is no reason any Democrat up for re-election in 2010 or 2012 needs to retain their seats. They don’t own those seats, any more than the Kennedys owned Massachussetts. There’s no reason the Democrats need to exist as a viable political party after 2012. Obama can be their last President.
It would be incredible if the American people could bring about such a transformation of their decadent political class, in these coming elections.
Sometimes freedom demands that you do the incredible to preserve it.
Cross-posted at www.doczero.org.
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Dribble slobber? Uh, and let me guess–you’re a bastion of genius, right? I’ll give you a pass since you’re a product of the NYC school system.
RepubChica on March 22, 2010 at 11:37 AM
rockmom on March 22, 2010 at 11:36 AM
—–
Yes – there have only been Democrat administrations throughout your entire life, so yes – the mess you’re in is all their fault.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 11:38 AM
Okay, so let’s make sure we establish this fact for all to see:
YOU DON’T CARE that Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive regimes like the Old soviet union?
Correct?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 11:38 AM
The model works just fine. It is called voting.
Your grand plan was tried once. It failed.
rukiddingme on March 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM
—–
That’s because uknowmorethanme knowsmorethanyou.
Puddleglum on March 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Okay, so let’s make sure we establish this fact for all to see:
YOU DON’T CARE that Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive regimes like the Old soviet union?
Correct?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 11:38 AM
———–
If this were a discussion of that regime, I’d gladly talk about it.
But that’s not the topic, so I don’t give a sh*t about it.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Well the Canadian Prime Minister could die since this could destroy the greatest health care system in the world. You know what I’m talking about Dave – the US Health Care system – where all Canadian political elitists – like your Prime Minister … turn when THEY need first class health care? The kind your socialist system doesn’t provide?
People talk … money walks Dave – and when your Prime Minister came to the US for his health care – he pretty much indicted the Canadian System.
Uhm … remind me when was the last time a US President went to Canada for his health care Dave? Oh! That’s right – NEVER!!
Canada … LOL
HondaV65 on March 22, 2010 at 11:40 AM
That was a provincial premier, not the prime minister, idiot.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 11:41 AM
Remember when doctors used to make house calls, too?
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 11:44 AM
Is anyone going to bother telling Honda she’s a Libertarian?
birddog on March 22, 2010 at 11:45 AM
You’re missing the point. Try to keep up.
robertnyc212 on March 22, 2010 at 11:45 AM
If you’ve never seen the US MIL code of conduct which guides the actions of US service members in case they are captured or imprisoned, there are some behaviors outlined it it that are appropos in this thread, both rhetorically and literally. *some content removed*
U.S. Military Code of Conduct
The Code of Conduct for U.S. Armed Forces was first published by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in Executive Order 10631 in 1955. It was later amended by President Carter in 1977. It outlines the basic responsibilities and obligations of all U.S. service members to the the United States.
I
I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life.
II
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
III
If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available.
IV
If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
V
…
VI
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
ted c on March 22, 2010 at 11:47 AM
Your best yet, Doc. Between this, Paul Ryan’s speech last night, and Greg Mankiw’s blog today, I am convinced that while culturally me and the GOP are at opposite ends of the spectrum, I have to just swallow that pride and hang my hat where it belongs…on the side of the libertarian as opposed to communitarian (to use Mankiw’s language)
ernesto on March 22, 2010 at 11:47 AM
You’re on a roll. I take it this late night vote here in the USA has breathed new meaning into your life. I’m glad. If that’s what it takes to give you a little hop in your step
while you’re out running errands for ‘Mother Dearest’.
RepubChica on March 22, 2010 at 11:48 AM
As Chica says, RobNYC, I think the term you were looking for was ‘drivel’. =)
Scott H on March 22, 2010 at 11:48 AM
Seriously? LOL … shows you how much I know about Canada’s political institutions – or really care about them!
Kind of contrast that with your intense obsession with OUR political institutions and I guess we can conclude that there’s not much in Canada that can keep one interested is there Dave?
But to the major point – you’d certainly conclude that the “Provincial Premier” (by the way – does he wear a crown and stuff?) … you’d certainly agree that he’s a POLITICAL ELITE and that his trip for heart surgery to the US is a pretty damning indictiment of your wonderful system there in Canada – wouldn’t you Dave?
Go ahead Dave … spin me an answer for that one! Tell me about how it actually PROVES the superiority of Canada’s socialized health care!
LOL
HondaV65 on March 22, 2010 at 11:48 AM
Err…I get the point, slick. And I get you more than you get yourself, freedom-hater.
RepubChica on March 22, 2010 at 11:49 AM
Uhm, no, it was slobber, drool, etc. Look it up, geesh.
robertnyc212 on March 22, 2010 at 11:49 AM
Okay, guys–love to play more with the cruddy unemployed miserable losers but have to hit the meeting circuit. C ya later, dopes. Like Arnold says…I’ll be back.
RepubChica on March 22, 2010 at 11:51 AM
First of all, we talking about the subject of Statism, so it is relevant.
Second, Facts are facts, so even though it is relevant to the topic at hand, it wouldn’t matter anyways.
So either you care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive regimes like the Old soviet union or you don’t.
Clearly you don’t, how do you live with yourself with an attitude like that?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 11:52 AM
You sound like George ‘Free-dumb’ Bush. Next you’ll be calling me an evil-doer.
robertnyc212 on March 22, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Please don’t lecture me on voting. From the hills of Virginia to the deserts in Iraq my family and I have more than exercised that right. We marched with Washington and Petraeus, Longstreet and Vandergrift, Pershing and Westmoreland. The Union is beyond preventive care. It is time for surgery.
Limerick on March 22, 2010 at 11:53 AM
The Soviet Union did not fall quietly. There were tanks in the street. Tanks that Yeltsin called on the troops not to fire. Well, we need tanks in our capital?
Dale on March 22, 2010 at 11:54 AM
Excellent piece! We have to get involved, enlighten people who for whatever reason don’t pay much attention to what is happening. Our children need to be informed, our elderly parents, our co-workers, etc etc…Let us get to work now!
MooreMom on March 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM
To hell with that! You’ve just told me I’m a female!! LOL
HondaV65 on March 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM
And for DRywall, who demonstrates he still doesn’t have an f’ing clue…
Hondas are made in… Marysville, OH, U.S.A
dominigan on March 22, 2010 at 11:58 AM
Did you leave out the part about Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee intentionally?
rukiddingme on March 22, 2010 at 12:01 PM
You obviously didn’t read it correctly. The name Longstreet was proudly included.
Limerick on March 22, 2010 at 12:02 PM
My thoughts exactly, Doc. We’re all here, and noone should underestimate how pissed off we are. Noone should underestimate how pissed off _I_ am.
DrRansom on March 22, 2010 at 12:03 PM
I can live with that…
Great post, Doc!
Seven Percent Solution on March 22, 2010 at 12:04 PM
Good to see you again Lim. In fine form, no less.
TexasDan on March 22, 2010 at 12:08 PM
Longer than their counterparts in the UK.
In the name of “fairness”, you’ll make sure that “rich” people in the US with cancer die just as fast as “poor” people do now in the UK.
The Monster on March 22, 2010 at 12:08 PM
Thank you, Texan ;)
Limerick on March 22, 2010 at 12:09 PM
First of all, we talking about the subject of Statism, so it is relevant.
Second, Facts are facts, so even though it is relevant to the topic at hand, it wouldn’t matter anyways.
So either you care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive regimes like the Old soviet union or you don’t.
Clearly you don’t, how do you live with yourself with an attitude like that?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:10 PM
The trolls are en masse. Clearly the good doctor has struck a nerve. Nice job!
redwhiteblue on March 22, 2010 at 12:11 PM
Robnyc is in a good because his tracking device is off and he now has the freedom to molest at will. What a day for our little pedo-progressive.
PimFortuynsGhost on March 22, 2010 at 12:13 PM
First of all, we talking about the subject of Statism, so it is relevant.
Second, Facts are facts, so even though it is relevant to the topic at hand, it wouldn’t matter anyways.
So either you care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive regimes like the Old soviet union or you don’t.
Clearly you don’t, how do you live with yourself with an attitude like that?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 11:52 AM
——
Soviet Union = progressive?
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 12:16 PM
For decades now, we have allowed a system where an ideology is funded and promoted through our electoral system. To even enable a prospective candidate, said candidate must adhere to the “system” by accepting the necessary capital to be competitive. Enter the special interest—lobbyist, unions, etc, all set in stone with their own agenda/ideology. The very definition of a lobbyist is “a person who solicits members of a legislature for the purpose of influencing legislation”.
For every “capital investment” supplied by the “interested party” the candidate finds him/herself consciously obligated, (morally,socially, and sometimes ethically), to show gratitude or appreciation for the “investment”. At this point the fundamental character of the candidate has been altered, no longer preserving any integrity of independent thought or purpose.
What we saw transpire last night was the extreme end of a seriously flawed process, where influence has turned into outright bribery, deceit, and yes, the outside influences of millions of dollars to complete the agenda. (note: the funds used within the existing body of government to achieve the results of this legislation ARE/WAS YOUR TAXPAYER DOLLARS)
Until we—the electorate—change this process, the status quo will remain the same, or in the case of last night, become an abrogation of our constitution and the rights afforded by the document.
Rovin on March 22, 2010 at 12:17 PM
That’s beautiful, Doc. I needed to read this right now, thank you.
Anna on March 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM
Until we—the electorate—change this process, the status quo will remain the same, or in the case of last night, become an abrogation of our constitution and the rights afforded by the document.
Rovin on March 22, 2010 at 12:17 PM
——-
You will not change the process.
Nothing will change.
Next.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 12:21 PM
Okay since we’ve establish that:
As is the: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
Explain the Difference between Socialism and Progressivism?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM
Noted.
You will proudly lose again if you continue with your plans.
As I said before, it was tried once, it failed.
Good luck.
rukiddingme on March 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM
robertnyc212 on March 22, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Why don’t you go somewhere you are actually accepted and desired?
A gay bar in Queens, perhaps?
David2.0 on March 22, 2010 at 12:24 PM
Okay since we’ve establish that:
YOU DON’T CARE that Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive regimes like the Old soviet union.
As is the: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
Explain the Difference between Socialism and Progressivism?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:22 PM
——
Which “hideous, progressive regimes” are you talking about?
As soon as you name them I will respond which ones I believe will have “millions” of deaths.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 12:24 PM
America, note this – the Democrat Party want to destroy our earned middle class, in favor of one that is redistributed, pulled up by our labor’s ‘gifts’, on that is dependent on the modern day plantation that they are.
Rywall, you socialist nihilist, we have something in common now, mediocrity and we are all sheep/gnats/plankton.
Schadenfreude on March 22, 2010 at 12:28 PM
Look up a couple of lines in you own posting.
As is the: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
Explain the Difference between Socialism and Progressivism.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:30 PM
Here is a perfect example of my point At 11:29 AM on the need to make better use of the term Statism. When we use ambiguously defined terms like “progressive” then we get caught in arguments about our use of the terms.
Substitute “statist” for “progressive” and no one can argue semantics with you:
Soviet Union = statist? Of course!
topdog on March 22, 2010 at 12:32 PM
Chip, don’t expect logic from a Utopian idealist. They hate that we deride the term “socialism”. There is no difference btw. socialism and ‘progressivism’. Btw, the stole the term. There is nothing progressive in their aims. Never use the term without single quotes. The liberals are neither progressive, nor liberal, nor free, ever. The terms: liberal, progressive, free, independent should never be sued without single quotes in relation to anything Democrat of today. The few sane Democrats will know better in Nov.
Schadenfreude on March 22, 2010 at 12:34 PM
topdog, you nailed it! Thank you. We must make this part of our mission. The statists are all about propaganda.
Schadenfreude on March 22, 2010 at 12:35 PM
should never be sued = should never bue used :(((
Schadenfreude on March 22, 2010 at 12:37 PM
If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
SoonerMarine on March 22, 2010 at 12:39 PM
You’re absolutely correct, part of my purpose here is to get the Leftists to explain the differences between the two ideologies.
And I’m talking about Present day definitions.
One of the major deceptions on the Left is to always change their labels to escape the mantle of failure form the past.
The statement could be phrased this way:
So either you care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous,
progressiveSTATIST regimes like the Old soviet union or you don’t.Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:40 PM
I just did it……..started my “PROGRESSIVES POLITICAL HEADS MUST ROLL” project.
Contributed for the first time to an Imperfect Conservative to get rid of a Progressive.
McCain……you got my vote (for J.D. Hayworth).
I’m sending a message with my pocketbook.
PappyD61 on March 22, 2010 at 12:43 PM
No problem. I’d rather try and fail then sit and flail.
Limerick on March 22, 2010 at 12:44 PM
Yes, I understand that completely. The Statists adapted that term to imply they are for “Progress” and all that rubbish, just like they like to imply they are for “Liberty” with their use of the term ‘Liberal’.
The Leftist will move-on to another term just a soon as people figure out what ‘Progressive’ really means.
Definitions change over time Progressive means Statist – it’s just another word to disguise who they really are.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:48 PM
Is he in violation of his oath of office?
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
PappyD61 on March 22, 2010 at 12:56 PM
Definitions change over time Progressive means Statist – it’s just another word to disguise who they really are.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:48 PM
They are regressivists, they want a revival of the feudal system with themselves as overlords.
To see a real reductio of what they believe, and have always believed, see the link below:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/fitzhughcan/summary.html
ebrown2 on March 22, 2010 at 12:58 PM
The link below is a beautiful gift to anyone running political ads this fall.
Of course it would be racist to run it but still…
Thank you Al.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7JNbauwGPY
PappyD61 on March 22, 2010 at 1:00 PM
Is he in violation of his oath of office?
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
PappyD61 on March 22, 2010 at 12:56 PM
——-
This is so awesomely stupid. I applaud you.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 1:01 PM
So either you care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive STATIST regimes like the Old soviet union or you don’t.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 12:40 PM
——–
What does the Soviet Union have to do with the topic at hand?
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 1:02 PM
I look forward to the day when Dave Rywall gets to experience Obamacare up close and personal and with no other recourse.
GT on March 22, 2010 at 1:06 PM
Had a chance to intelligently answer my questions yet?
Explain the Difference between Socialism and Progressivism.
And is it that You still don’t care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive or STATIST regimes like the Old soviet union?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 1:06 PM
Limerick, good that you are back. You were missed very much.
Schadenfreude on March 22, 2010 at 1:10 PM
I can hear Allah breaking dishes now.
Limerick on March 22, 2010 at 1:13 PM
You know, it doesn’t really reflect well on yourself if you have to keep asking questions on things I’ve already explained.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 1:14 PM
No. Will “idiot” do?
You’re too stupid to be evil.
Squiggy on March 22, 2010 at 1:23 PM
Chip, you can go about your day now. DR always runs away when the thinking begins. He’s one of the biggest weasels at HA.
Schadenfreude on March 22, 2010 at 1:24 PM
In 2014, under this bill, a person making 400% over the poverty level will receive a government subsidy to buy health insurance.
The “poverty level” is defined by the federal government. The new, “improved” figure is $11,000 a year for an individual and over $22,000 for a family of four. These can be after -tax numbers, so accounting tricks can be performed by a savvy tax filer to reach these levels.
So, with that being said, if a family of four, that is an individual, his spouse and two children makes $88,000, they will receive a subsidy to buy health care insurance.
Beginning, however, next year, this bill will increase the Medicare payroll tax and expand it to dividend, interest and other unearned income for singles earning more than $200,000 and joint filers making more than $250,000 and the Bush tax cuts will be repealed as well so income taxes will also increase for these folks by 4%.
So, consider this: a family of four lives next to a single gal who is a small business owner. The business owner makes $212,000 a year. The family of four makes $87,500.
The gal with the small business has to pay her own payroll taxes on top of her income taxes, while the employer of the family of four pays 1/2 of their payroll tax. But, now, due to this travesty, her new tax increases on her payroll taxes, income taxes and any investment gains will be confiscated and given to the “poor” family next door to help them pay for health insurance.
This is the “human right” that was given yesterday to the “poor” family of four who makes $88,000 a year. So they can keep other luxuries and not have to make any sort of sacrifice to pay for their health insurance while the gal next door has her taxes raised and given over to her neighbor because she committed the sin of being successful and making more than her neighbor.
This is what we became yesterday.
Opposite Day on March 22, 2010 at 1:26 PM
If it makes you feel any better, a sizeable cross section of the GOP has decided that I’m going to hell because I enjoy games with … gasp …. polyhedral dice.
But that whole “I like personal liberty” thing is amazingly unifying.
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 22, 2010 at 1:31 PM
So the Soviet Union wasn’t Marxist? I could be wrong, but I believe they were.
And “American progressives” are too. If you say they’re not Marxists, you’re either a liar or an idiot. Whatever differences there are between them are so small as to be irrelevant. If you go back to the beginning of the “progressive” movement, when Teddy Roosevelt was in power, they even admitted it. They only hushed up about it when the USSR started killing millions of their own (well, some of them got quiet about it, others just kept up the big lie).
And your wonderboy Obama keeps picking avowed Marxists for his “cabinet”. Why might that be?
Squiggy on March 22, 2010 at 1:35 PM
Dont even have to point to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot to portray deaths attributed to Liberalism……
USA Liberals have as much death on their hands as does Stalin & Mao combined….
Add up decades of abortion at 1.8 million dead per year, compounded by what would have been births from those aborted.
Add in the tens of millions deaths attributed to the removal of technology like DDT, with subsequent deaths to malaria etc world wide. Its another hoax as costly as global warming…
add in smaller death tolls to Cafe standards, the smaller cars due to enviro/warmer demands and subsequent higher traffic deaths
add in the compounded deaths to violence that can be directly attributed to the 5 trillion war on poverty, and the ghetto/slums/ fatherles society its created.
sbark on March 22, 2010 at 1:39 PM
Personally I’d like someone to explain the difference between the two ideologies.
I really don’t see any difference between them, and I’m getting fed up up with the Statist “name game” the left is always playing.
Because if we let them get away it, we will never be rid of that hideous ideology, because they will always be able to come up with a new name EVERY time Statism fails under the old name.
It’s like a restaurant that sells salmonella burgers and goes out of business each time they are caught and opens that same restaurant the next week under a new name.
Hey, poison is poison whether you get it from Marx-burgers or Progressive Pattie’s.
Apparently
Isn’t up to the task
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM
LOL!
Yes, I needed to vent some after what’s been happening, it’s either doing this or hacking away at some brush, beating up on trolls is my way of “Going Green” you see.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 1:54 PM
Let’s make this perfectly clear. You and I have no philosophical common ground. You believe it is perfectly acceptable for you and your ilk to receive the benefits of other people’s labor — those benefits ultimately enforceable at the end of the barrel of a gun. I believe that guns should be turned on my neighbor only in very limited circumstances. You believe it is acceptable at every turn in the interest of “fairness” and equality. I am willing to forego government largesse, and risk the consequences of my free choices. Therefore, I do not turn a gun on you in the expectation that you pay for anything that I am capable of providing for myself.
Government is always and everywhere an exercise in coercion. I believe that government should be minimized in its ability to force me to action. You believe it should be maximized wherever possible becasue you know better than your neighbor how to couduct your neighbors’ lives.
Up until this election, freedom was compromised at the margins — albeit in large bites at times. But they were nonetheless small enough margins and incremental enough not to cause undue alarm. We were the proverbial frog in the boiling pot of water not noticing the lethal conditions in which we found ourselves. You are OK with turning the heat of state coercion up to a deadly boiling point. I am not.
You may mock and hold people such as Doc Z and myself in contempt for our love of liberty. That’s OK. We will defend it even for the benefit of those who neither want nor understand it. In our own self interest, we will fight the battle for you. We may even lose the war, and at the end of the day you may be my captor. But at least I will have my honor intact. You will simply be the latest in the long history of mankind of those who wish to oppress others in the name of some flowery, unattainable notion of “leveling the playing field.”
I am almost certain that you are laughing at me as you read this. That’s OK, too. Because for whatever reason, you have consumed the bitter herb of envy and resentment. The source of your laughter comes not from a place of joy, but from a rotten place in the soul that cannot allow his neighbor the satisfaction of accomplishment or the reward of having taken a risk in this life. Yours is the laughter of ridicule that knows deep down the brokenness born of fear, insecurity, and the need for control.
My philosophy has nothing in common with yours — except for the battleground. At least the lines are now clearly drawn. Whether you and yours ultimately win or lose, I pity your wretchedness.
ObjectionSustained on March 22, 2010 at 1:56 PM
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 1:01 PM
Had a chance to intelligently answer my questions yet?
Explain the Difference between Socialism and Progressivism.
And is it that You still don’t care about whether Millions of people have died and will die because of hideous, progressive or STATIST regimes like the Old soviet union?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 1:06 PM
—
You clearly believe that your country now resembles the Soviet Union of old.
That makes you a fu*king moron.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 2:11 PM
Dont even have to point to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot to portray deaths attributed to Liberalism……
USA Liberals have as much death on their hands as does Stalin & Mao combined….
Add up decades of abortion at 1.8 million dead per year, compounded by what would have been births from those aborted.
Add in the tens of millions deaths attributed to the removal of technology like DDT, with subsequent deaths to malaria etc world wide. Its another hoax as costly as global warming…
add in smaller death tolls to Cafe standards, the smaller cars due to enviro/warmer demands and subsequent higher traffic deaths
add in the compounded deaths to violence that can be directly attributed to the 5 trillion war on poverty, and the ghetto/slums/ fatherles society its created.
sbark on March 22, 2010 at 1:39 PM
—–
Okay so let’s go with your figure of 1.8 million abortions per year.
Bush was in power for 8 years so he’s responsible for 14.4 million deaths.
Shall I tally up the rest of the conservative presidents and their abortion death tolls for you?
DDT deaths? From the cessation if its use? You’re a clown.
The rest of your post is even more stupid.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 2:17 PM
It may be of little consolation, but history laughs and mocks much more bitterly at robertnyc212′s arguments. The story of humanity, particularly in the last 100 years, is one of unchecked “value modification” turning into tyranny. The failing of liberal views is one that neglects to understand the failing of humanity, while impossibly believing in the power of government agency to improve it. But that. Will. Never. Happen.
The best it can do is torture humanity through tyranny until there is only surrender of one’s own soul to the State:
somewhatconcerned on March 22, 2010 at 2:23 PM
*Sigh*
I really don’t have to write anything new with you just copy and paste earlier postings.
You Canadians are not merely disinterested observers – aside from that our Healthcare system is a relief valve for your system, consider the fact that we are the bulwark of democracy for the world, what happens if we are weakened so much that some other more malevolent power takes the top spot?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 2:24 PM
“what happens if we are weakened so much that some other more malevolent power takes the top spot?”
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 2:24 PM
——-
You actually believe that this is a possibility? Wow.
Do you sleep with a night light too, little girl?
Maybe you should go rent the Omen trilogy and scare yourself more silly.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 2:27 PM
Do you have any answers besides personal attacks?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 2:28 PM
Classic projection.
robertnyc212 on March 22, 2010 at 2:31 PM
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 2:27 PM
Do you have any answers besides personal attacks?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 2:28 PM
——
You’re just another armchair tea bagger who loves the drama of shrieking MY COUNTRY IS BECOMING LIKE SOVIET RUSSIA
MY FREEDOMS ARE GETTING TAKEN AWAY FROM ME
SOCIALISM IS EVIL AND AMERICA HAS BECOME SOCIALIST
SOMEONE IS TRAMPLING ON THE CONSTITUTION
and many other stupid pants wetting statements that mean nothing.
The sky isn’t falling; The other side won the election and the party in power is enacting the average to poor ideas it ran on during that election. Your side lost, so the average to poor ideas your side had have gone bye bye. You don’t like that. But shucks, little girl, that’s just too bad. Their ideas convinced more people than yours. Run a better campaign next time.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM
Classic non-response. And your sneering response pretty much confirms what I wrote. You lose.
ObjectionSustained on March 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM
Chip,
You’re arguing with someone who will move from point-to-point, adding false points only to feel validated. Like Bush ‘killed’ 14.4 million babies when his hands were tied since 1973 by SCOTUS. Even when there was an an attempt to ban partial-birth abortions, Leftists went ballistic.
You, we–here on this site–have nothing to prove to each other. We’re all of like mind though sometimes we disagree on details. You don’t need to defend your points, since you’re part of the majority here. WE have your back, we think much as you do. You’re safe, and liberals don’t make us anyhow unsafe.
You’ll rarely convert a liberal to anything else than their politics. The only way that can really happen, or so I believe, is when life smacks them in the head and they have to make choices.
As their icon John Lennon once said, “Life is what happens to you while you’re making other plans.”
Regards,
Liam
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM
So the answer is a big resounding NO, right?
How sad for you.
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 2:59 PM
It’s called growing up. It happened to me, because I used to think the same way back in the day. Sort of like that old Churchill quote that says: “Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.”
Sadly, it seems some people never do grow up, as evidenced last night.
somewhatconcerned on March 22, 2010 at 3:00 PM
“Bush ‘killed’ 14.4 million babies when his hands were tied since 1973 by SCOTUS”
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM
——
Great. This means that every president’s hands were tied by that ruling, which means that you cannot blame liberals for all these abortions any more than you can blame conservatives, which means his point was FU*KING STUPID.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Oh, I understand that, what is truly amazing is that he can’t come up with an intelligent answer.
He can’t even manage to come up with good response to my question about the difference between Socialism and Progressivism.
I’m not really attempting to change his opinion on Statism so much as get others to think about these questions.
It’s just that I’m truly amazed that he can’t even come up with any good responses that don’t involve personal attacks – the question is, does he realize how badly that makes his side look?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 3:09 PM
Doc you truely have great insight and know how to write clearly and succinctly… Thank you…oh and you must be getting well known and understood because now you’re getting graced with trolls!
CCRWM on March 22, 2010 at 3:12 PM
the question is, does he realize how badly that makes his side look?
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 3:09 PM
——
People who generalize like this are idiots.
Dave Rywall on March 22, 2010 at 3:12 PM
You’re so angry today. What’s up?
You’re Canadian, which means you don’t really grasp what it is to be a Citizen of the United States. That’s not an assault, but rather a point.
Yes, we CAN blame liberals here in America. I bet you never read the Roe decision, which does truly allow restrictions. And, yes, I read the whole thing. There was a concurrent suit brought with Roe that was thrown out in full.
Yes, we CAN blame American (note that detail) liberals for the numbers. Bush tried to stop one of the ugliest ways of abortion. Obama (NOT your Head of State) voted in favor of letting aborted but still-alive babies (you call them fetuses) die in cans reserved for medical waste.
I didn’t address you by name, yet you came at me. That’s okay. I’m not going to try discussing anything with you after all other times I tried having a discussion. You, as you have so often shown, don’t want one.
And that’s okay.
See things as you will, that’s your right and I’m all for it.
We here, we Americans when you’re not, will see things as we choose. We can’t ‘enlighten’ you to something else, and that’s okay, too.
But, in the end, neither can you ‘enlighten’ us to your way. But, if someone can, you aren’t that person. You come across as having way to much anger and fury, p*ss and vinegar.
You know, Dave, you’d have more credibility were you a Citizen of the United States.
But you’re not.
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 3:15 PM
Generally speaking?
topdog on March 22, 2010 at 3:17 PM
Let them have their day, Patriot. Every dog has his own. And some days are longer than others.
Time is the telling factor, I tend to believe.
Funny, too, DR isn’t an American. He never grew up under our way of life, with our history. He doesn’t have parents who instilled in us the things ours did. He doesn’t have our motivations but, rather his own. He doesn’t grasp that all a person’s motivations stop at his/her neighbor’s front door.
That detail is the telling, final thing.
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM
LOL
Touche!
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM
Dave Rywall:
While I’m all for freedom of political speech the world over, you’re really and truly an outsider. You’re not an American Citizen.
You can’t vote in our elections.
You aren’t counted, and won’t be counted as of this moment, in our upcoming census.
You aren’t represented among the Congress of the United States of America according to our Constitution.
To live here, you need permission. Far as I know, that hasn’t been granted you.
You will need at least five years to be able to have a vote here. You will need to be sworn in as a Citizen, as were my mom’s parents who came here from Italy in 1912.
Post all you like! But, in the end, you can’t influence a single thing in the United States. And, here, on this site, you preach only to your own choir. You aren’t changing a single mind among us.
Yes, today you’re angry like I never before saw in you. Tell me–that insult you made earlier to a certain Latina–who is American as I am–get you in some sort of Dutch with HA administration?
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 3:34 PM
+1
Chip on March 22, 2010 at 3:35 PM
LOL
It’s much the same as telling someone “You’re in denial” and he/she says, “No, I’m not!”
Liam on March 22, 2010 at 3:41 PM
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