Pence blasts Slaughter Rule on House floor
posted at 3:55 pm on March 16, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) lashed out at Democrats attempting to bypass a floor vote on the government takeover of one-sixth of the nation’s economy. Pence scoffs at the notion that ObamaCare won’t be a government takeover of health care, pointing out that a federal mandate for every American to purchase health insurance as a matter of law is a fundamental imposition of Washington on the personal choices of Americans. He then accuses its supporters of violating their oaths to support and defend the Constitution in their effort to bypass a floor vote, especially on such a momentous piece of legislation:
“The Democrat health care bill that’s being brought through the Congress this week is nothing more than a government takeover of health care, and the American people know it. I know the administration doesn’t like us to use that phrase, but come on. When you mandate that every American purchase health insurance whether they want it or need it or not, you mandate that every business provide it, you create a massive government-run bureaucracy exchange that mandates what’s in insurance plans, you wrap that all in about $1 trillion worth of spending, that’s a government takeover of health care.
“But what’s really remarkable about this whole business is that not only the American people rejected this plan but Democrats are so desperate to pass it that they’re willing to trample on the traditional rules of the House and Senate and even trample on the Constitution of the United States to get it done.
“The Constitution provides that a bill becomes a law if it’s passed the House of Representatives and the Senate. Democrats actually don’t have the votes to pass the Senate bill, so they’ve decided they’re going to try and pass the bill without a vote.
“Well that would be news to the Founders of this country, and a betrayal of the commitment of every Member of this Congress to the American people. I urge the Speaker, if you have the votes for the Senate bill, bring it to the floor. If you don’t, let’s scrap the bill and start over for the American people.”
It’s hard to see how the Democrats win with this approach. First, they may not have enough votes to pass the reconciliation sidebar bill that would “deem” the Senate bill to have been passed. The CBO report on reconciliation could come back negative, or the amount of vote-buying inserted by Nancy Pelosi could create another Cornhusker Kickback backlash. Beyond that, though, the process looks sleazy and will contribute to the sense that Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Obama are pulling illegal or at least unethical stunts to keep opponents from stopping the bill. Americans want to see more transparency in government, not less, and using parliamentary chicanery to hide from a floor vote on the Democrats’ biggest domestic agenda item hardly qualifies as transparency.
Yesterday, Constitutional scholar and former 10th Circuit judge (and former shortlister for a Supreme Court nomination) Michael McConnell wrote about the legality of the Slaughter rule:
It may be clever, but it is not constitutional. To become law—hence eligible for amendment via reconciliation—the Senate health-care bill must actually be signed into law. The Constitution speaks directly to how that is done. According to Article I, Section 7, in order for a “Bill” to “become a Law,” it “shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate” and be “presented to the President of the United States” for signature or veto. Unless a bill actually has “passed” both Houses, it cannot be presented to the president and cannot become a law.
To be sure, each House of Congress has power to “determine the Rules of its Proceedings.” Each house can thus determine how much debate to permit, whether to allow amendments from the floor, and even to require supermajority votes for some types of proceeding. But House and Senate rules cannot dispense with the bare-bones requirements of the Constitution. Under Article I, Section 7, passage of one bill cannot be deemed to be enactment of another.
The Slaughter solution attempts to allow the House to pass the Senate bill, plus a bill amending it, with a single vote. The senators would then vote only on the amendatory bill. But this means that no single bill will have passed both houses in the same form. As the Supreme Court wrote in Clinton v. City of New York (1998), a bill containing the “exact text” must be approved by one house; the other house must approve “precisely the same text.”
These constitutional rules set forth in Article I are not mere exercises in formalism. They ensure the democratic accountability of our representatives. Under Section 7, no bill can become law unless it is put up for public vote by both houses of Congress, and under Section 5 “the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question . . . shall be entered on the Journal.” These requirements enable the people to evaluate whether their representatives are promoting their interests and the public good. Democratic leaders have not announced whether they will pursue the Slaughter solution. But the very purpose of it is to enable members of the House to vote for something without appearing to do so. The Constitution was drafted to prevent that.
That takes us back to the issue in Public Citizen v US and the Marshall Field ruling. Commenters on the earlier post noted that the issue in the Public Citizen case involved whether the bill that was passed was actually the same in both chambers in Congress, but the ruling itself and the Marshall Field ruling were more expansive than the parameters of the immediate arguments, as the appeals court explained (emphases mine):
The District Court held that Public Citizen’s bicameralism claim is foreclosed by the Supreme Court’s decision in Marshall Field & Co. v. Clark, 143 U.S. 649 (1892). See Public Citizen v. Clerk, U.S. Dist. Ct. for D.C., 451 F. Supp. 2d 109 (D.D.C. 2006). In that case, the Court held that the judiciary must treat the attestations of “the two houses, through their presiding officers” as “conclusive evidence that [a bill] was passed by Congress.” Marshall Field, 143 U.S. 672-73. Under Marshall Field, a bill signed by the leaders of the House and Senate – an attested “enrolled bill” – establishes that Congress passed the text included therein “according to the forms of the Constitution,” and it “should be deemed complete and unimpeachable.” Id. at 672-73. Recognizing that Marshall Field’s “enrolled bill rule” prohibited it from questioning the congressional pedigree of the bill signed by the Speaker and President pro tempore, the District Court dismissed Public Citizen’s complaint and denied its motion for summary judgment. Public Citizen, 451 F. Supp. 2d 109.
That doesn’t necessarily make McConnell wrong on the Slaughter Rule’s constitutionality; I agree with him that it violates Article I, Section 7. However, the courts have consistently ruled that they’re not going to intervene in these cases. Don’t expect them to do so with ObamaCare. If it’s going to be defeated or repealed on that basis, then the defeat has to come politically, not judicially.
Andy McCarthy disagrees, however:
To analogize, here is what I think the Democrats are doing: They are saying that because I once stipulated, on an uncontroversial issue, and allowed the streamlined proof of a proposition that was of little or no importance to me, I have forever waved my Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights to due process of law and confrontation. They are saying that because I stipulated that the drugs were drugs, I must also stipulate that I was the guy who sold them — that I have forfeited my right to make them come in, testify, and convince the jury that they are telling the truth, as the Constitution requires. In essence, they are saying a trial is no longer a trial with all the attendant guarantees.
No judge would abide such a system. It would turn justice into a kangaroo court. More importantly, the public would no longer regard the judicial system as legitimate. It’s outcomes would no longer be worthy of our acceptance and respect. We would no longer follow its rulings and dictates.
This is what is happening to the legislative process. Sure, we don’t make lawmakers dot every “i” and cross every “t” every time. But that doesn’t mean we’ve abandoned the right to make them play it by the book when it comes to a controversial matter. When there’s a real dispute, they have to pass the bill the regular, constitutionally mandated way: Both houses on the exact same text, with every legislator accountable for his vote.
If, instead,the legislative process becomes a farce that departs from the constitutional procedures we are entitled to enforce, then it no longer represents the consent of the governed. It is the first American principle that government derives its just powers only from the consent of the governed, and when it takes on a form that becomes destructive of the fundamental rights of the governed, it is no longer legitimate.
Again, I don’t disagree with Andy, but the court’s precedent shows that they have explicitly declined to rule on process legitimacy in Congress. Could this court overturn that precedent? They certainly could, but with such a strong, clear, and recent precedent, it seems like a rather desperate hope.









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What do the people do when the folks who were elected to represent the people refuse to represent the people???
Are people suppose to lay down and take it???
Its damn time for the checks & balances to work or else something must give.
bluegrass on March 16, 2010 at 4:01 PM
It is clearly an unconstitutional rule no matter who uses it. It should be abolished.
andy85719 on March 16, 2010 at 4:02 PM
Go ahead, Nancy. Try it.
Just remember Yamamoto’s lament:
turfmann on March 16, 2010 at 4:03 PM
absolutely, they are bordering on treason by using this fake move because the constitution gets in the way.
rob verdi on March 16, 2010 at 4:03 PM
I apologize to all the people of this country that sacrificed for the Constitution, Freedom and Due Process…
PatriotRider on March 16, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Who is Pence? Because I like him!
Cookies Mom on March 16, 2010 at 4:04 PM
The precedent is only at the Appeals level. The Supreme Court could strike down the bill. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did, given the animosity Obama has shown toward the court.
andy85719 on March 16, 2010 at 4:05 PM
Representative from Indiana.
darwin on March 16, 2010 at 4:05 PM
If Congress passes it this way, can’t we just deem it to be illegal and unconstitutional and not abide by it?
myrenovations on March 16, 2010 at 4:05 PM
[Comment deleted, commenter warned -- Ed]
johng on March 16, 2010 at 4:08 PM
Raising the debt ceiling to accomidate spending that was already authorized by both House and Senate– for the purposes of giving unanimous consent, I assume– is very different from using the Slaughter Rule to pass a bill that they lack the votes for.
There may technically be a precedent, but it’s not equivalent.
RachDubya on March 16, 2010 at 4:08 PM
The concept of DEEM and PASS is antithetical to the Constitution. It not only violates the Constitution, but it is un-Constitution. It borders on dictatorial.
andy85719 on March 16, 2010 at 4:08 PM
The last time we saw such “legislative contortions”, “political illusions”, and “constitutional twists” was back during the mid 1800′s …
Right before the nation split.
HondaV65 on March 16, 2010 at 4:09 PM
Curse you tab button for hitting submit instead of preview.
Stupid typos.
RachDubya on March 16, 2010 at 4:09 PM
What is this, CNN? Quit using lefty catchphrases, Ed.
fiatboomer on March 16, 2010 at 4:10 PM
You this lack of representation reminds me of another time there was a lack of representation…old King George took the brunt of that one.
Cookies Mom on March 16, 2010 at 4:11 PM
Dems Still Don’t Have the CBO Score They Want
By Philip Klein on 3.16.10 @ 4:01PM
As Democrats have delayed releasing their final health care reconciliation bill, they’ve consistently tried to create the impression that they’re essentially finished, but are merely waiting on the Congressional Budget Office. For instance, House whip Jim Clyburn told Fox earlier that, “We are still waiting on the CBO, the Congressional Budget Office, to give us its final number on what this thing will cost.” Yet the delay in releasing the bill and CBO score (which was initially supposed to come out as early as last week) has suggested something else – that early estimates from the CBO were bad, and they’re making changes to get the score that they want.
It now appears that this is precisely the case. A story from Congressional Quarterly reports:
House Democratic leaders are still struggling to produce a final health care overhaul bill at an acceptable official cost estimate, but Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer said Tuesday they continue to plan a final vote this week. House leaders were to huddle late Tuesday afternoon, following a noon session of the full Democratic Caucus. There were reports they are having trouble drafting a bill that meets their budgetary targets….
Rank-and-file Democrats did not talk about the details, but said that the CBO scores had come up short. “They were less than expected” in terms of deficit reduction, said Rep. Gene Green, D-Texas, who plans to vote for the bill.
There are several things that Democrats are up against when it comes to the CBO score. The most important is that, based on reconciliation instructions, the “fix” bill must be shown to reduce the deficit by at least $1 billion. The challenge is, that’s after assuming that the Senate bill is law. In other words, the reconciliation bill can’t claim any of the deficit reduction from the Senate bill, but rather it must reduce the deficit relative to the Senate bill. Yet the changes that are being talked about will cost a lot of money. This includes eliminating the “Cornhusker kickback” and offering enhanced Medicaid subsidies to all states, increasing subsidies for the purchase of insurance, eliminating the so-called “donut hole” on Medicare prescription drug benefits, and whatever else they put in the bill. At the same time, delaying until 2018 the enactment of the “Cadillac tax” would be scored as a reduction in revenue, and thus add further to the deficit. They’d have to make up the gap through tax increases as well as try to siphon “savings” away from the student loan bill. (More on that here.) But evidently it seems like they’re running into trouble on this front.
Another issue to keep in mind is President Obama’s pledge that the health care bill would cost “around $900 billion” The changes he’s proposed to the Senate bill would bring the total cost of health care legislation to $950 billion, according to the White House. Every dollar exceeding that will make it easier for Republicans to argue he broke his pledge, and at some threshold even the media will have to call him out on it. That isn’t a fight that Democrats are going to want to get into.
Also, Democrats need a CBO score that’s positive enough to help give Blue Dogs who claim to be fiscal conservatives an excuse to vote for the bill.
So this is why it’s Tuesday afternoon and we still haven’t seen a final bill or CBO score. They won’t release a bill as final if the score isn’t to their liking. Democrats could still keep making changes and coming up with new gimmicks to get the estimate that they want, but they do not have forever. If they want to pass a bill by Saturday night and post it online 72 hours in advance, then the latest we they could put things off would be until tomorrow.
http://spectator.org/blog/2010/03/16/dems-still-dont-have-the-cbo-s
andy85719 on March 16, 2010 at 4:12 PM
No.
strictnein on March 16, 2010 at 4:12 PM
I deem that this will be my approach.
paragon27x on March 16, 2010 at 4:14 PM
I do not understand how they can be acting so unethically, and unconstitutionally and still think that this law will become a law that will be adhered to.
This is nuts.
ORconservative on March 16, 2010 at 4:14 PM
Go Pence!
rbj on March 16, 2010 at 4:14 PM
I’m amazed, on every level, that this Congress and ‘president’ are this totally hell-bent on pushing this through. Never in my 51 years have I ever seen this kind of thing. Never in all my studies of American history have I read of this.
Worse, are those like the liberals who troll here in favor of this.
This matter isn’t what the country needs. It’s what the Dems want. And that’s all the Left sees and hears. It’s the perpetual whine of the Affirmative Action crowd, and AA isn’t always a matter of racial preference. It’s always ‘gimme, gimme, gimme’.
How about you libs give ME: Gimme my liberty. Gimme my free choice. Gimme my hard-earned money that you steal in taxes to give to others.
How about you libs try those kinds of ‘gimmme’?
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:14 PM
Obama, Pelosi and Reid are the proverbial frogs in the water that’s gradually increasing to boiling temperature. They’re too stupid to know what’s going on around them. I’m looking forward to November when many of those corrupt criminals are thrown out of Congress.
orlandocajun on March 16, 2010 at 4:15 PM
Not that it will do any good, but this is the text I sent to Webb and Warner in Virginia. Fortunately, I am in Cantor’s district so at least I know someone is hearing me…
Dear Senator,
Your silence over the backroom deals and the political maneuvers like the House “deeming” the Senate healthcare bill voted FOR is deafening. I cannot believe my representative in Washington DC is standing by allowing some of the dirtiest politics I have seen in my lifetime. The trust this Democratically led Congress is striping away from the American people will be difficult to restore, if that is even possible at this point.
For the sake of our country, please stand up in front of a camera somewhere, or on the Senate floor and speak for who you represent. I believe Virginia has made it clear we do not want this particular bill.
truetexan on March 16, 2010 at 4:15 PM
The new meme is…
I need to see the language first
There is no stinkin’ bill!
singlemalt_18 on March 16, 2010 at 4:15 PM
Ok then…
Its clear that Congress will attempt to use a CLEARLY Unconsitutional means to pass this legislation, but the Courts will not intervene.
When they do this, they will be violating their oath to Protect and Defend the Constitution.
IF they abrogate that oath, under the Right to Petition for Redress, and the ideal that the Government ONLY governs with the Consent of the People…
Treason Trials? Recalls for abrogation of their Oath?
It Appears there is no NON Federal check on abuses of Power…
Romeo13 on March 16, 2010 at 4:16 PM
(bluegrass)you ask what are the people to do.The answer my friend lies in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution .These 2 master pieces of knowledge are quiet clear on what we can and should do.You sound like a person that like me is concerned and scared to death about the future of our country .So let us stand together fight and return this country to it,s Constitutional principles.
thmcbb on March 16, 2010 at 4:16 PM
House Committee on Rules
H-312 The Capitol
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-9091
Call them and demand transparency. These people are out of their minds. This is like some sort of a legislative coup. What is going on!!!!!!!!
bloggless on March 16, 2010 at 4:17 PM
Right you are.
I was reading about the 1850′s the other day. What we are seeing today is exactly what happened during the slavery issues back then.
Electrongod on March 16, 2010 at 4:18 PM
Never really have.
upinak on March 16, 2010 at 4:18 PM
The courts cannot act until presented a case.
If this mess goes through, I hope the courts are flooded on every level with suits against it.
This might pass, but the People still have another option.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:19 PM
Since I am afraid of the ban hammer, I will not mention what I will do in defense of Our Constitution. Justice will be brought to bare on those who commit treason.
I might also mention, that once the government has lost the consent of the people and slid into tyranny, all methods of replacing said government become legitimate.
Semper Fi, Do or Die. Grrrrrrrr…….
donkichi on March 16, 2010 at 4:19 PM
If they deem bill to be passed, even though they never voted on it, then the American people should rise up and deem that the 2008 is null an void and kick that idiot out of the WH and everyone of his comrades!
ConservativePartyNow on March 16, 2010 at 4:19 PM
I’m wondering how many of these communist progressives laughed, giggled, rolled their eyes, did the blah blah blah sign with their hands, or flat out ignored Pence, when he talked of the unconstitutionality of this.
capejasmine on March 16, 2010 at 4:20 PM
call Mike Pence and thank him!
202-225-3021
bloggless on March 16, 2010 at 4:20 PM
Don’t go there, don’t even joke about it.
obladioblada on March 16, 2010 at 4:21 PM
This is a coup if this happens. The dems are desperate and know their time is running out. Because they’ve been so stubborn, they know there is nothing they can do for redemption, therefore, they have to pull out all the stops and give it all they’ve got. It is the one last dying gasp of air. They are gambling on the American people not doing anything about it. And you know what? I am thinking that is a pretty good gamble on their part. It is one thing to holler at a townhall or hold a sign in front of the capital, but when it comes to sustained personal sacrifice, the American people are lacking.
We ask if the GOP has a backbone. I ask does this country? Afterall, our representatives are a reflection of us. If this passes in this manner, it will be the true test of who we really are as Americans. All talk? Or doers? I don’t mean violent civil disobedience. I mean doing what is lawful but necessary to resist tyranny. Whether that be refusing to purchase healthcare at the risk of going to prison? Or sacrificing personal comfort to pull your children out of these awful schools and starve that beast? We must be willing to tackle it from all sides within our legal means even if it means a disruption to our comfort.
I think we may be ready to see the stuff Americans are made of…
PrincipledPilgrim on March 16, 2010 at 4:22 PM
I’m going with a coup…because that’s what I think this is. Nancy herself said, they would make even more changes, once they pass this bill. Now…that coming from Nancy….the changes can’t be good.
capejasmine on March 16, 2010 at 4:22 PM
The Tree of Liberty needs to be watered soon…she is dying….
johng on March 16, 2010 at 4:23 PM
This whole process reminds me of the Seinfeld episode “The Millennium”
George Costanza Wants to get fired from the Yankees and so he tries to do it in the most out outrageous way possible – things like dragging the National League trophy around in circles behind his car while yelling out the car window on a bullhorn.
He wanted to go out in a final outrageous act of incompetence.
It would seem like the Dems want to do the same – go out in one Glorious and Unconstitutional act of incompetence.
They don’t just want to takeover 18 % of the economy, but they want to do it in the most legislatively ugly way possible.
Chip on March 16, 2010 at 4:24 PM
My impression is that most Americans out there are either choosing to remain ignorant of this whole thing, just naturally are ignorant of anything political or don’t think it’s a big deal.
Sure, when pressed in a polling question it comes out that a majority think it stinks, but most around me will talk about anything besides Obama, this health care scam, spending, etc.
Dr. ZhivBlago on March 16, 2010 at 4:25 PM
Mike Pence/Lashing Out ’12.
portlandon on March 16, 2010 at 4:27 PM
On some level, I share your disillusion. But I would caution, as a matter of discussion, to never sell us short.
Hitler and Hirohito thought we would roll over and play dead; they thought we would remain isolationist and quiet like mice.
We’re not mice and never have been. I don’t believe we ever will be. When all legal options are run out, the world had better watch out. I believe in the adage “Beware the wrath of a patient man.”
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:27 PM
Chip on March 16, 2010 at 4:28 PM
Demon pass.
disa on March 16, 2010 at 4:28 PM
Or will they do what they did with the House bill…. cause a big stir, but then slide in the Hyde language at the end to get the votes?
PrincipledPilgrim on March 16, 2010 at 4:28 PM
Good idea, those who are admirable deserve the same level of praise as those who are despicable deserve our scorn.
fourdeucer on March 16, 2010 at 4:30 PM
Doesn’t matter what they do. The courts remain an option beyond Congressional control. The genius of the Founders.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:30 PM
Uh, just when did the Supreme Court stop a power grab by the Federal Government?
Even the latest Washington 2nd Amendment case did NOT affect the States (yet).
Looking at the Precedents, which is all the Courts today seem to care about… they have “cover” to allow the House to do what it wants.
Romeo13 on March 16, 2010 at 4:30 PM
And therin lies the rub, and the essence of all that is wrong with America now that a) we should even have to make a statement like the forefathers did and b)that in a country goverened by the constitution where freedom is to be absolute, that we should fear public castigation for defense of that document and the country it represents when tyranny is brewing is shameful.
johng on March 16, 2010 at 4:31 PM
I’m in. I had planned to go to DC today to join the rally- with my 4 kids in tow, but my entire family came down with the flu. I did email my reps up there though. I am ready to see what Americans are made of!
truetexan on March 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
He then accuses its supporters of violating their oaths to support and defend the Constitution in their effort to bypass a floor vote, especially on such a momentous piece of legislation
Mike Pence is utterly right on this subject. This is an ANTI Constitutional move and a clear violation of each and every swinging richards oath.
Contact.
ted c on March 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Beat me to it, but I might add treason might be a bit of a high bar…but violation of the oath of office??? Not so much. Ditto for the Chief Executdope. I do believe this is an impeachable offense.
Chewy the Lab on March 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
LOL…. just watched Patton again last night…
“America loves a winner….”
Romeo13 on March 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
This shall not pass–this is ANTI CONSTITUTIONAL…it ain’t unconstitutional, its ANTICONSTITUTIONAL
ted c on March 16, 2010 at 4:33 PM
Agreed, but we can’t predict the Courts any better than can the Dems.
McCain/Feingold was knocked down; Congressional limits on the First Amendment were killed by that same Court and, most notably, on the basis of the Amendment.
Hope is not lost!
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:34 PM
Oh, yes! And Americans are winners! First time, last time–every time!
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:35 PM
Well,as the Obama Titanic sinks,
the Liberal band plays on!!
canopfor on March 16, 2010 at 4:35 PM
Just spoke with Bryan @ Mr. Pences office and thanked him.
fourdeucer on March 16, 2010 at 4:35 PM
And their tune is Imagine by Lennon–the liberal anthem.
I hate that F-ing song…
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:37 PM
Actualy, kind of interesting that the only part of McCain Feingold which was struck down had to do with Corporations… ie those who fill the coffers of both partys…
Limits on you, and me, and the whole stupid non effective Elections Board are still in place…
Romeo13 on March 16, 2010 at 4:37 PM
Thanks..I followed your lead and also spoke with Brian and asked him to thank Mr. Pence.
johng on March 16, 2010 at 4:38 PM
Ed, it seems to me that it is apples and oranges. There is a big difference between a self executing rule on a budget issue or something like that and a piece of legislation that effects every single individual. If they were the same thing, the Democrats would not be turning themselves into pretzels trying to devise a rule to fit this situation.
Terrye on March 16, 2010 at 4:38 PM
I often wonder that with the incremental way that the radical national socialist left has foisted statism on us, that we have become anesthetized to it’s effects and that our forefathers probably have blown a gasket Long before this point.
Chip on March 16, 2010 at 4:43 PM
The Dems will continue to hammer away at this with unconstitutional tactics until they pass the damn thing. Seems pretty clear where this all ends. Everybody better start stocking up on food and ammunition. If this passes we’ve entered clear and undeniable tyranny. And as our Founding Fathers came to learn, only guns end a tyrant’s reign.
chicagojedi on March 16, 2010 at 4:45 PM
I guess they want us to trust them like when they asked us to trust them with repaying the Social Security Trust Fund they stole from us and now that its time to repay, we are broke. out
Check is in the mail. out
I won’t – - – in your mouth you Obama lovers……..swallow and drink your kool-aid
bluegrass on March 16, 2010 at 4:46 PM
But corporations were the original point of McC/F. With that part struck down, the law has lost almost all its teeth. It’s now like a rattlesnake without its fangs.
If the guts hadn’t been torn out, Obow wouldn’t have insulted the Court during the SOTU. The rest is just a matter of nitpicking details, realistically.
In any matter, really, the Court is a wild card the Dems can’t count on. There are truly liberals out there who believe in the Constitution much as you and me. Sure, they may like a looser interpretation, loving those penumbras and all, but there are liberals who don’t want restrictions like what this Health Control mess is all about. Some of those such liberals sit on the Bench.
Reid, Pelosi, and Obow are not the end-all and be-all, no matter what they think of themselves. We have the most incredible and excellent government system ever devised by Man.
Not perfect, to be sure. But the American Experiment is a beauty to behold, one worth keeping. I truly believe We the People can keep it.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:46 PM
God bless him! Just sent him an email to thank him for his words! Plain speaking and it’s the truth!
JellyToast on March 16, 2010 at 4:48 PM
But corporations were the original point of McCain/Feingold. With that part struck down, the law has lost almost all its teeth. It’s now like a rattlesnake without its fangs.
If the guts hadn’t been torn out, Obow wouldn’t have insulted the Court during the SOTU. The rest is just a matter of nitpicking details, realistically.
In any matter, really, the Court is a wild card the Dems can’t count on. There are truly liberals out there who believe in the Constitution much as you and me. Sure, they may like a looser interpretation, loving those penumbras and all, but there are liberals who don’t want restrictions like what this Health Control mess is all about. Some of those such liberals sit on the Bench.
Reid, Pelosi, and Obow are not the end-all and be-all, no matter what they think of themselves. We have the most incredible and excellent government system ever devised by Man.
Not perfect, to be sure. But the American Experiment is a beauty to behold, one worth keeping. I truly believe We the People can keep it.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:48 PM
So has any senior Congressional Republican publicly stated that he/she will challenge this in court? We should make it very clear to the Dems what the consequences of this unconstitutional action will be.
Old Fritz on March 16, 2010 at 4:49 PM
Sorry for the double post.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:49 PM
I think it should be sent to the Supremes for a ruling. I see that there is argument and precedent both ways… but the manner in which this is passes is not it’s only constitutional problem. The mandate to purchase a product under penalty of law is also an issue.
This bill limits our rights forever. Surely the court would at least look at such a travesty being passed by slight of hand!
We can all look forward to an undignified death in dirty government run hospitals.
The staff will no longer be the best and brightest… they will have gone where free enterprise will still reward their brilliance.
The future staff of hospitals will be like our educational system has become… those who cannot do, teach. Our deaths will be attended by incompetents.
I’m lucky. My genes and lifestyle(even before modern medicine my ancestors regularly lived into their 90s) tell me I’ll be okay. Hopefully, I’ll get to die at home.
But so many won’t.
petunia on March 16, 2010 at 4:50 PM
Where is Abe Lincoln when we need him.
Wade on March 16, 2010 at 4:52 PM
I don’t disagree.
It’s been pretty dry around these parts for some time now. And I believe that a wise man once said something to the effect of, A good rebellion is necessary every couple hundred years…..we are pushing our time frame.
PappaMac on March 16, 2010 at 4:56 PM
Doesn’t look like there is a Federal Check on it either. What is our recourse. I’m thinking it will get really ugly.
chemman on March 16, 2010 at 4:56 PM
WE still have the courts, on multiple levels. We can tie this mess up on every last jot and tittle, every word and paragraph.
Long as the matter is held in court, it can’t be enacted. No law can be applied if it’s before the courts.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 4:59 PM
There is no Social Security Trust Fund. The SCOTUS ruled in the early 60′s that Congress could spend the money how they saw fit and had no obligation to make any payments. Congress just lacks the b*lls to tell the people that they have been raped and have no recourse to do something about it.
chemman on March 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Point taken but I am not hopeful given the conservative nature of the high court and its reliance upon prior rulings that we will win. If we do I will be relieved.
chemman on March 16, 2010 at 5:05 PM
The legal argument is not persuasive to me. There will be a vote with nays and yeas on the rule. The rule incorporates the unaltered Senate Bill. Thus, there will be a vote on the Senate Bill. Voting for the rule is a vote for the unaltered Senate Bill. This is what needs to be trumpeted. The House Dems are trying to avoid a controversial vote on the Senate bill without their changes. But that is exactly what they are doing. People must be made aware that a vote on the rule is a vote on the unaltered Senate Bill. After the Senate Bill is deemed passed, it will be passed. Then when reconciliation flounders, the unaltered Senate Bill can become law with the stroke of Obama’s pen.
tommylotto on March 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM
I’m a major cynic, too. But I rather have faith. It’s the evidence of things hoped for, the substance of things not seen.
Better that than despair, plus that we can speak to friends and family to change their minds if they presently favor this mess. If each of us can change two minds out of a hundred, and there are a thousand of us trying that, we changed 2000 MORE to the truth of this impending disaster. Now were up to a count of 3000.
Not too shabby, I like to think.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 5:10 PM
And the court petitions are written just as fast, if they’re not written already.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 5:11 PM
I have to disagree with you in this case. Many court decisions are made for expedience. It is very possible that the courts refuse to decide on process legitimacy in cases that are not of significant note simply to avoid having every minor action of Congress litigated. The previous decisions were made more in interest of avoiding a handle by which unscrupulous lawyers can litigate every law that passes every legislature by questioning minor technical points of process.
If the resulting legislation is of such significance that it fundamentally alters the economic structure of the nation it is hard to ignore. Such legislation demands at least the appearance of legitimate process in order for our system of government to retain its own legitimacy in the eyes of the governed. The courts would not have any trouble recognizing that cases such as this are the very reason that they exist. The most fundamental of all functions of the Supreme Court is to ensure that our government retains its legitimacy by following the rules.
Hawthorne on March 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM
Men… women… brothers and sisters… husbands and wives…
gave their lives defending the flag the constitution this country…. There now sits before the house of representatives a bill that has passed the senate….. either vote up or down on that bill or send it to conference… the process every 5th grader knows from civics class… to do otherwise is to disrespect those lives that made the ultimate sacrifice. Americans are hearing the silence of the weak minded Democrats that are ignoring their oath of office.. where’s the outrage?
donabernathy on March 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM
Maybe so, but, Ed.
What’s the outcome/consequences of Obama knowingly signing into law a Bill that does not meet the Constitutional requirement of passage that he swore to uphold?
What’s his obligation to the American People, from whom he is granted the authority to govern, when Pelosi hands him a Bill that has not met that Constitutional requirement?
These sound like impeachable offenses to me.
Texas Gal on March 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM
we are not the same people we were in 1941… Try living here in L A and see all these illegal immigrants and their enablers block streets and sidewalks demanding rights in this country! Every day at 3 I can look out my office window and see just across town the school LAUSD built at a cost of 350 million which is attended by about 5 thousand Latino kids… They are low income… I’m paying for this… It might be tolerable if I thought that the end result is they graduate and become productive members of society but we have almost 13 percent unemployment now before Obamacare passes and I wonder ” what are we going to do with all these kids who probably aren’t going to be able to get a good full time job?” I see a lot of anger, violence and chaos in L A’s future… My husband and I are preparing to leave in about 10 years… We do not plan to retire here in CA at all
CCRWM on March 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM
No, the vote will be on the ALTERED Senate Bill… ie with changes to it.
Now, how this works with reconciliation is a whole other matter, because the House and Senate will NOT have voted on the same Bill…
So, the question becomes, what bill gets signed into law? The one the House passed? (Senate bill with changes) or the Senate Bill?
Romeo13 on March 16, 2010 at 5:20 PM
We have always seen that anger and violence in the future, like many in Gold Rush towns saw from 1840 to 1900. We have always been like that.
True, many aren’t like our parents who were born before the Depression and fought WWII. But we are their children. We learned, no matter what else, of them and their lives.
No, we’re not the same people as in 1941, but we have the same spirit. Sure, we can quibble about how much that’s diluted. But it’s not absent. I present, for point of evidence and encouragement, the TEA Party.
We ain’t done yet!
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 5:23 PM
Then why bother with representatives? Harry and Nancy could just sign any bill and say it passes this muster – regardless of what the rest of Congress says.
SouthernRoots on March 16, 2010 at 5:23 PM
That was before Barry tried to make friends with the SCOTUS at the state of the union. Perfect opportunity for payback.
Daveyardbird on March 16, 2010 at 5:29 PM
Liam… I appreciate your optimism…
CCRWM on March 16, 2010 at 5:34 PM
Thanks! Tho, I confess, it’s not easy.
But without faith, all is truly lost. And I hate to lose.
Liam on March 16, 2010 at 5:46 PM
If
is not actualy true via Article I, Section 7, then charge the presiding officers with perjury, and when that gets proved, work things out backwards. No?
AnotherOpinion on March 16, 2010 at 6:11 PM
Isn’t the bolded part the more relevant issue? The bill has to be passed according to Constitutional muster.
onlineanalyst on March 16, 2010 at 6:22 PM
What will ObaMao’s next act be? To pack the Supreme Court so that this legislation and any others “deemed” by the oligarchs is acceptable?
onlineanalyst on March 16, 2010 at 6:24 PM
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