Guess who opposed the Slaughter Rule in 2005?

posted at 9:30 am on March 16, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

The year was 2005, and Republicans needed to raise the US debt limit in order to cover the costs of their increased spending.  The GOP used a self-executing rule to protect both Republicans and Democrats in the House from having to take an embarrassing vote to increase the national debt rather than start paying it down and cutting spending.  A lawsuit by a famous political gadfly gave some Democrats an opportunity to make deficit spending a big issue in the upcoming midterms, and guess which Democrats seized that opportunity by writing amicus briefs for the lawsuit?   Mark Tapscott recalls:

But put aside the present for the moment and step into my time machine. Dial the date selector back to 2005 when the Republican majority in Congress approved a national debt limit increase using a self-executing rule similar to the Slaughter Solution.

Guess who went to federal court to challenge the constitutionality of the move? The Ralph Nader-backed Public Citizen legal activists. Here’s the argument they made:

“Article I of the United States Constitution requires that before proposed legislation may “become[] a Law,” U.S. CONST. art. I, § 7, cl. 2, “(1) a bill containing its exact text [must be] approved by a majority of the Members of the House of Representatives; (2) the Senate [must] approve[] precisely the same text; and (3) that text [must be] signed into law by the President,” Clinton v. City of New York, 524 U.S. 417, 448, 118 S.Ct. 2091, 141 L.Ed.2d 393 (1998).

“Public Citizen, a not-for-profit consumer advocacy organization, filed suit in District Court claiming that the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, Pub.L. No. 109-171, 120 Stat. 4 (2006) (“DRA” or “Act”), is invalid because the bill that was presented to the President did not first pass both chambers of Congress in the exact same form. In particular, Public Citizen contends that the statute’s enactment did not comport with the bicameral passage requirement of Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution, because the version of the legislation that was presented to the House contained a clerk’s error with respect to one term, so the House and Senate voted on slightly different versions of the bill and the President signed the version passed by the Senate.

“Public Citizen asserts that it is irrelevant that the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate both signed a version of the proposed legislation identical to the version signed by the President. Nor does it matter, Public Citizen argues, that the congressional leaders’ signatures attest that indistinguishable legislative text passed both houses.” (Emphasis added)

And now for the kicker, guess who joined Public Citizen in that suit with amicus briefs:

  • Nancy Pelosi
  • Henry Waxman
  • Louise Slaughter

If the Pelosi/Slaughter/Waxman argument against using a self-executing rule against a debt limit increase measure sounds familiar, it should because it’s the same argument now being used by Republicans to oppose the Slaughter Solution for moving Obamacare through the House.

Debt limit increases are not exactly the stuff of revolutionary change.  Both parties have demanded and received authorization for the hikes.  The ObamaCare bill, on the other hand, imposes individual mandates on every resident in the nation to buy insurance, the first such mandate ever imposed.  Surely this would create standing for every single citizen to file this kind of lawsuit … right?

Well, maybe, but in Public Citizen v US District Court for DC, the appellate court for DC didn’t bother with the argument for Nader’s standing because it could rule straight away on the merits of their claim against the self-executing rule.  And conservatives won’t like that precedent:

The District Court held that Public Citizen’s bicameralism claim is foreclosed by the Supreme Court’s decision in Marshall Field & Co. v. Clark, 143 U.S. 649 (1892). See Public Citizen v. Clerk, U.S. Dist. Ct. for D.C., 451 F. Supp. 2d 109 (D.D.C. 2006). In that case, the Court held that the judiciary must treat the attestations of “the two houses, through their presiding officers” as “conclusive evidence that [a bill] was passed by Congress.” Marshall Field, 143 U.S. 672-73. Under Marshall Field, a bill signed by the leaders of the House and Senate – an attested “enrolled bill” – establishes that Congress passed the text included therein “according to the forms of the Constitution,” and it “should be deemed complete and unimpeachable.” Id. at 672-73. Recognizing that Marshall Field’s “enrolled bill rule” prohibited it from questioning the congressional pedigree of the bill signed by the Speaker and President pro tempore, the District Court dismissed Public Citizen’s complaint and denied its motion for summary judgment. Public Citizen, 451 F. Supp. 2d 109. …

We agree with the District Court that the enrolled bill rule of Marshall Field controls the disposition of this case. We therefore affirm the judgment of the District Court. We find it unnecessary to determine whether Public Citizen has standing to bring suit, because we conclude that the Marshall Field rule of dismissal “represents the sort of ‘threshold question’ [that] . . . may be resolved before addressing jurisdiction.” Tenet v.Doe, 544 U.S. 1, 6 n.4 (2005).

In other words, the signatures of the Speaker of the House and President Pro Tempore of the Senate are considered authoritative on the question of process.  The court refused to interfere on a political question in 1892 and has maintained that precedent since.  Unless this Supreme Court intends on overturning Marshall Field — an action that would create a constitutional crisis — Pelosi’s signature will be considered “unimpeachable,” at least in terms of process.  The courts will undoubtedly have more to say on the constitutionality of the actual law, but probably not on the Slaughter Rule.

Update: I credited David Freddoso with this piece, but it was written by another other good friend of mine at the Washington Examiner, Mark Tapscott.  I’ve corrected the citation above.

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Comment pages: 1 2

OT: Ed quoted in NYT!
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/arts/television/16cspan.xml
(via Drudge)

KS Rex on March 16, 2010 at 9:31 AM

The year was 2005, and Republicans needed to raise the US debt limit in order to cover the costs of their increased spending.

……

And here is why the country is finished.

Oh but this time they’ve “learned” their lesson!

/

artist on March 16, 2010 at 9:32 AM

The court refused to interfere on a political question in 1892 and has maintained that precedent since.

IIRC, the court also hadn’t issued a significant gun rights ruling for 70 years until Heller.

We’ve also never dealt with self-executing rules for unconstitutional mandates.

amerpundit on March 16, 2010 at 9:35 AM

What?!? Nancy Pelosi using a double standard? I’m shocked..just shocked…

rollthedice on March 16, 2010 at 9:35 AM

Ed…did you not see this? Jon Stuart hits the nail on the head on this one. Congress is like the WWF.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-15-2010/crumbums—fatcats

They have to keep changing positions otherwise people get bored with them.

milwife88 on March 16, 2010 at 9:35 AM

The Slaughter House starts up tomorrow…

Enoxo on March 16, 2010 at 9:36 AM

Does the Slaughter Solution have anything to do with dentures?

d1carter on March 16, 2010 at 9:38 AM

These people do not care if this vote is constitution or not .They will do anything and i do mean anything to pass Obama care .The only way they can be stopped is for the American to stop them anyway we can.The constitution is very clear on what we can do to remove this threat.Some of you will call this crazy talk.To you i say get a copy of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and read them.The instruction are very clear.

thmcbb on March 16, 2010 at 9:41 AM

Just so sick of this …

Every time the Democrats “cross the line” of legislative sanity it appears they have, as cover, some precidence that was set by the GOP in the past. I hate to use Wright’s words here – but the GOP chickens are “coming home to roost”.

Reconciliation? Yeah it was done by the GOP.

Self Execution? Yeah it was done by the GOP.

TARP … the instrument of Obama’s socialization of America? Yeah – brought to you on a silver platter by the Bush administration and John McCain.

I’ll tell you what – we may not need a third party – but we damn sure need a NEW GOP party because the old really sucked – and it’s still biting us in the butt.

HondaV65 on March 16, 2010 at 9:42 AM

And now for the kicker, guess who joined Public Citizen in that suit with amicus briefs:

•Nancy Pelosi
•Henry Waxman
•Louise Slaughter

Well,Nancy is re-inventing herself!!

canopfor on March 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM

This is not competent legislation anymore!

This is an illegal operation that is now bordering on being a criminal act!

In any other aspect of society, the police would be called in by this time and arrests would be made!

pilamaye on March 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM

“Merely” raising the debt ceiling arguably does not create a specific harm to any one person, so standing is an issue in Public Citizen. The Senate bill may be viewed as harming (through increased taxes) on some, so the S.Ct. might be more willing to take on such a case.

As well, there is enough news reporting on the Slaughter rule here that maybe the courts would feel more comfortable asking whether or not Art. I, sec. 7, cl. 2 was followed.

rbj on March 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM

For a group of people who saw Bush as Satan himself, they sure are using him as an example of how to govern lately.

They’re following in his footsteps even tho he was EEVVVIILLL.
The republicans started it!!
Bush did it!!

This country is run by a bunch of 10 year olds.

B Man on March 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM

It is a good thing politicians are conscious of their past actions and strive for consistency.

WashJeff on March 16, 2010 at 9:47 AM

Ed:

In other words, the signatures of the Speaker of the House and President Pro Tempore of the Senate are considered authoritative on the question of process.

President Pro Tempore, just for the record, is Byrd.

hit and run on March 16, 2010 at 9:48 AM

But there is another issue. All bills dealing with revenue must begin in the House. This health control bill began in the Senate.

Article 1 Section 7
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;
but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

ROCnPhilly on March 16, 2010 at 9:48 AM

That same court ruled a number of times that the 2A references some illusory collective right instead of guaranteeing an individual the right to own a gun. I wouldn’t hang much on the Constitutional chops of the DC Appeals court.

JohnTant on March 16, 2010 at 9:49 AM

We find it unnecessary to determine whether Public Citizen has standing to bring suit, because we conclude that the Marshall Field rule of dismissal “represents the sort of ‘threshold question’ [that] . . . may be resolved before addressing jurisdiction.” Tenet v.Doe, 544 U.S. 1, 6 n.4 (2005).

How interesting it is how standing wasn’t even needed to be given consideration in order to rule on this Cnstitutional issue (and to rule incorrectly, at that), but for the Constitutional eligibility of a dual citizen for President and the clear meaning of ‘natural born citizen’, standing is everything, even though voters were actually presented with ineligible people on the state ballots …

Our judiciary is a total joke – even aside from the court’s idiocy that the houses of Congress can totally ignore the Constitution, so long as they agree among themselves, which has to be one of the most insane rulings ever.

This nation is toast.

neurosculptor on March 16, 2010 at 9:50 AM

The year was 2005, and Republicans needed to raise the US debt limit in order to cover the costs of their increased spending.

……

And here is why the country is finished.

Oh but this time they’ve “learned” their lesson!

/

artist on March 16, 2010 at 9:32 AM

…and they say Glenn Beck is crazy when he says that both parties are the same.

thomasaur on March 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM

That’s Nancy Pelosi?

My God, she looks like Sean Penn in drag.

warbaby on March 16, 2010 at 9:52 AM

Now we know where Slaughter got the idea and why they think it will work. The fact that Pelosi and Slaughter were on the opposing side in 2005 does not prove hypocrisy on their part. It shows they have learned from experience. They think, and they are probably right, that the court will not see any difference between a typo in 1892 and a deliberate attempt to circumvent the Constitution today.

I hope they’re wrong, but they probably aren’t.

Jaynie59 on March 16, 2010 at 9:53 AM

This is indeed disturbing.

Bishop on March 16, 2010 at 9:55 AM

At which point does this stop being legislating and start becoming dictating? Seriously?

Red Cloud on March 16, 2010 at 9:55 AM

Ok, so why all the theatre? We’re ruled by the triumvirate of Obama, Reid and Pelosi. It only takes their signatures to pass a law! How’d he get that nickname “No Drama Obama”?
We be scrooood! Cap’n Trade is next, then amnesty, NPR takes over the entire broadcast spectrum…

cartooner on March 16, 2010 at 9:57 AM

Let me get this straight… If Nazi Pelosi signs a document stating that the House passed a bill, and Joe Biden signs it stating that the Senate passed the same bill, and Barack Obama signs it, it’s a law, even if no one else in the House or Senate actually voted in favor of it?

The Monster on March 16, 2010 at 9:58 AM

Funny, I thought the President was adamant that we had to have “an up or down vote” on health care reform.

\\sarc

Awilson on March 16, 2010 at 9:58 AM

At which point does this stop being legislating and start becoming dictating? Seriously?

Red Cloud on March 16, 2010 at 9:55 AM

Any day now.

artist on March 16, 2010 at 9:59 AM

Bad precedents are overturned all the time and should be. Just because a precedent is set, doesn’t mean that it is a good precedent or correct. Marshall Field is bad precedent just as ‘separation of church & state’ and Roe v. Wade.

Sporty1946 on March 16, 2010 at 10:00 AM

We are so screwed…

OmahaConservative on March 16, 2010 at 10:01 AM

But there is another issue. All bills dealing with revenue must begin in the House. This health control bill began in the Senate.

Article 1 Section 7
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;
but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

ROCnPhilly on March 16, 2010 at 9:48 AM

There you go again, quoting that Old Charter of Negative Liberties. /s

Electrongod on March 16, 2010 at 10:01 AM

Ok, that’s it. If they do this by the ‘slaughter rule’, and the courts don’t/won’t overturn it’s patently unconstitutionality because of precedent or whatever, we have no choice.

The Constitution will apparently (if not already) be a dead letter, and we’re being ruled not by representatives, but by fiat.

The founders have already provided guidance for what needs be done at that point.

Midas on March 16, 2010 at 10:01 AM

…and they say Glenn Beck is crazy when he says that both parties are the same.

thomasaur on March 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM

Beck is partially correct – RINOs are the same as Dems. That is why we have to get rid of them!

Sporty1946 on March 16, 2010 at 10:02 AM

All it would take is a few people standing up to the likes of her and obama,calling them on their hypocrisy and they would back off,tucking their tails.We the people, can see it as plain as day.

ohiobabe on March 16, 2010 at 10:02 AM

I’m in favor of the Sporker Solution.

LibTired on March 16, 2010 at 10:03 AM

Let me get this straight… If Nazi Pelosi signs a document stating that the House passed a bill, and Joe Biden signs it stating that the Senate passed the same bill, and Barack Obama signs it, it’s a law, even if no one else in the House or Senate actually voted in favor of it?

The Monster on March 16, 2010 at 9:58 AM

So the three of them can create taxation, without votes from our representation?

Midas on March 16, 2010 at 10:04 AM

All it would take is a few people standing up to the likes of her and obama,calling them on their hypocrisy and they would back off,tucking their tails.We the people, can see it as plain as day.

ohiobabe on March 16, 2010 at 10:02 AM

Considering thousands do so every day, I suppose you’re slightly mistaken.

Midas on March 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM

The lawlessness of our so called leaders is front and center. How will we react?

chemman on March 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM

Not the same thing Ed. The bill had passed with votes from both houses and the Slaughter rule at this point added an amendment to the already passed bill raise the debt ceiling.

Not ACCEPT THE WHOLE BILL AS VOTED ON.

Skywise on March 16, 2010 at 10:06 AM

Speaking of Triumvirates, who will cross the Rubicon on our behalf?

14th Legion, where are you when we need you?

Bishop on March 16, 2010 at 10:06 AM

These people do not care if this vote is constitution or not .They will do anything and i do mean anything to pass Obama care .The only way they can be stopped is for the American to stop them anyway we can.The constitution is very clear on what we can do to remove this threat.Some of you will call this crazy talk.To you i say get a copy of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and read them.The instruction are very clear.

thmcbb on March 16, 2010 at 9:41 AM

I don’t even like to think about this. But on the other hand, if we let them get away running roughshod over the Constitution, do any of us think it will get better in the future? Did King George suddenly become sanctimonious? Or did he turn up the heat?

Lessons from History 101.

I don’t think America has the guts for it. I think they know that and that is why they will keep pushing forward. They know they have dug deeply enough now that they must go forward. They know their day of reckoning is coming and so they must pull out all the stops now or never.

PrincipledPilgrim on March 16, 2010 at 10:06 AM

The Republicans sowed this field with their own contempt for financial common sense. Both parties have known for years that these entitlement programs were ticking time bombs. But Conservatives, too, could not bring themselves to sacrifice their cushy positions by forcing the issue of containing these country killing behemoths; they knew voters who had come to love the Big Three would remove them. Democrats, who won’t admit that their enervating social programs have destroyed the American spirit and the American economy have doubled down; Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid will now become ObamaCurityCareCaid. Along the way, they have felt entitled to looting the federal treasury by using HUD, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, FHA and a host of other known lesser agencies as their personal piggy banks. It’s sick and perverse and yet we will sit idly by and watch them turn the entire country into an inner city.

mr1216 on March 16, 2010 at 10:07 AM

At which point does this stop being legislating and start becoming dictating? Seriously?

Red Cloud on March 16, 2010 at 9:55 AM

I’m with you.

PrincipledPilgrim on March 16, 2010 at 10:08 AM

Lawlessness is right.
I expect that Obamacare will be law by next week and then I expect that by November we will have a similar 3000 page bill nullifying all popular elections.
Just wait, these people think that they are the supreme power and nothing is going to stop them.

ORconservative on March 16, 2010 at 10:08 AM

Lawlessness is right.
I expect that Obamacare will be law by next week and then I expect that by November we will have a similar 3000 page bill nullifying all popular elections.
Just wait, these people think that they are the supreme power and nothing is going to stop them.

ORconservative on March 16, 2010 at 10:08 AM

Or will rig the machines to count GOP votes for themselves and vice versa.

PrincipledPilgrim on March 16, 2010 at 10:10 AM

This country is run by a bunch of 10 year olds.

B Man on March 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM

Being a bit harsh, don’t you think? On 10-year-olds, that is.

Bruce in NH on March 16, 2010 at 10:10 AM

Beck is partially correct – RINOs are the same as Dems. That is why we have to get rid of them!

Sporty1946 on March 16, 2010 at 10:02 AM

RINOs are in control of the party at this point.

thomasaur on March 16, 2010 at 10:11 AM

In this case, SCOTUS might revisit the “or even fraud” portion of, “Better, far better, that a provision should occasionally find its way into the statute through mistake, or even fraud,….”

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:15 AM

Update: I credited David Freddoso with this piece, but it was written by another other good friend of mine at the Washington Examiner, Mark Tapscott. I’ve corrected the citation above.

That’s not a citation, it’s an attribution.

Trent1289 on March 16, 2010 at 10:15 AM

In other words, the signatures of the Speaker of the House and President Pro Tempore of the Senate are considered authoritative on the question of process. The court refused to interfere on a political question in 1892 and has maintained that precedent since. Unless this Supreme Court intends on overturning Marshall Field — an action that would create a constitutional crisis — Pelosi’s signature will be considered “unimpeachable,” at least in terms of process. The courts will undoubtedly have more to say on the constitutionality of the actual law, but probably not on the Slaughter Rule.

I’m glad to know that bills don’t have to get voted on anymore. Why doesn’t Pelosi just sign the bill without a vote at all? That shoulds like what Marshall has done. No need to record the Yeas and Nays in the Congressional Journal as required by the the Constitution?

uknowmorethanme on March 16, 2010 at 10:16 AM

But there is another issue. All bills dealing with revenue must begin in the House. This health control bill began in the Senate.

Article 1 Section 7
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

ROCnPhilly on March 16, 2010 at 9:48 AM

The Senate thought of that when they hijacked a House bill for this purpose.

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:17 AM

“because the version of the legislation that was presented to the House contained a clerk’s error with respect to one term, so the House and Senate voted on slightly different versions of the bill”

Oh I see, what they are doing today can be seen in the same light as a clerk’s error in 2005.

Electrongod on March 16, 2010 at 10:18 AM

Democrats are hypocritical scum.

drjohn on March 16, 2010 at 10:18 AM

Let me get this straight… If Nazi Pelosi signs a document stating that the House passed a bill, and Joe Biden signs it stating that the Senate passed the same bill, and Barack Obama signs it, it’s a law, even if no one else in the House or Senate actually voted in favor of it?

The Monster on March 16, 2010 at 9:58 AM

I was wondering the same thing. That can’t be right.

gwelf on March 16, 2010 at 10:19 AM

Andy McCarthy expands on the idea that the Dems’ reliance on the debt ceiling precedent is one of “Slaughtering the Constitution.” He explains how and why it won’t fly as a legislative device.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzFjYTQxODU3MGUyZDUyNjY2N2U2NmVmMWExYTU4NjE=

onlineanalyst on March 16, 2010 at 10:21 AM

I can’t wait for Rush…He makes the complex understandable :)

ohiobabe on March 16, 2010 at 10:22 AM

Let me get this straight… If Nazi Pelosi signs a document stating that the House passed a bill, and Joe Biden signs it stating that the Senate passed the same bill, and Barack Obama signs it, it’s a law, even if no one else in the House or Senate actually voted in favor of it?

The Monster on March 16, 2010 at 9:58 AM

Under the precedent of Marshall Field, you got it.

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:23 AM

Considering thousands do so every day, I suppose you’re slightly mistaken.

Midas on March 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM
//
No,I don’t think so.We the people of course can see it,I mean the other knotheads in congress or the msm.

ohiobabe on March 16, 2010 at 10:24 AM

Unless this Supreme Court intends on overturning Marshall Field — an action that would create a constitutional crisis — Pelosi’s signature will be considered “unimpeachable,” at least in terms of process.

So as I read the finding of the Court in Marshall, SCOTUS does not look inside the legislative branch for conformance to the Constitution, only at what comes out.

In a sense, at the present time Pelosi and Biden can write anything law they want, attest to it, and without any vote at all, present it to the President for signature. And SCOTUS, through Marshall, says that’s OK with them. As long as the two-person law does not violate the Constitution, what recourse do the people have other than waiting for the next election?

Good God. The loophole of loopholes.

BobMbx on March 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

These people do not care if this vote is constitution or not. They will do anything and i do mean anything to pass Obama care .
thmcbb on March 16, 2010 at 9:41 AM

And, as we know, the taxing begins at once. They’ll take in large amounts of taxes during the period that the States, organizations, and individuals file suit in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will overturn their legislation, and they’ll keep the tax money.
This is why this legislation has to be stopped completely.
It’s nothing but a license to steal.

Cybergeezer on March 16, 2010 at 10:27 AM

Under the precedent of Marshall Field, you got it.

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:23 AM

There’s got to be something missing from the equation. Maybe something we don’t know about the Marshall Field case? From what I’ve read here we don’t actually need any votes in either chamber of Congress – we just need 2 people to say it passed and it’s ‘passed’ procedurally. This simply cannot be. Isn’t there a constitutional demand that bills pass with a certain majority in both chambers and that both bills that are passed be the same bill? There are lots of layers of internal Senate and House rules that they can constitutionally change but isn’t the core constitutional requirement that the bill pass with a majority of votes from both houses?

gwelf on March 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Just so sick of this …

Every time the Democrats “cross the line” of legislative sanity it appears they have, as cover, some precidence that was set by the GOP in the past. I hate to use Wright’s words here – but the GOP chickens are “coming home to roost”.

HondaV65 on March 16, 2010 at 9:42 AM

I thought the same. This past action by the GOP gives weight to the Dems argument to go ahead and use it.

“The GOP did it! Why can’t we?”

It is sickening.

shick on March 16, 2010 at 10:31 AM

To be fair, not all of the 2010 Pelosi were even around in 2005.

highhopes on March 16, 2010 at 10:31 AM

It looks to me, that if they DO sign any legislation that affirms that there was a bill in Congress, and there really wasn’t, that this would amount to an impeachable offense.
If it were that easy to do, without recourse, it would have been done already.

Cybergeezer on March 16, 2010 at 10:32 AM

Good God. The loophole of loopholes.

BobMbx on March 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

Yeah – if this is indeed true then we are truly and royally screwed.

There might be some House and Senate rules about when the leader of the chamber can deem a bill ‘passed’? So it’s not simply a matter of them putting ink to paper?

gwelf on March 16, 2010 at 10:32 AM

There’s got to be something missing from the equation. Maybe something we don’t know about the Marshall Field case? From what I’ve read here we don’t actually need any votes in either chamber of Congress – we just need 2 people to say it passed and it’s ‘passed’ procedurally. This simply cannot be. Isn’t there a constitutional demand that bills pass with a certain majority in both chambers and that both bills that are passed be the same bill? There are lots of layers of internal Senate and House rules that they can constitutionally change but isn’t the core constitutional requirement that the bill pass with a majority of votes from both houses?

gwelf on March 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM

I wish there was, but the “or even fraud” cite I included above came from Marshall Field via Public Citizen. Back in 1792, SCOTUS deemed it preferable to have fraudulently-enacted legislation be the law of the land than declare said fraud unconstitutional.

Our only hope is that SCOTUS takes a different look at fraud.

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM

Every time the Democrats “cross the line” of legislative sanity it appears they have, as cover, some precidence that was set by the GOP in the past. I hate to use Wright’s words here – but the GOP chickens are “coming home to roost”.

HondaV65 on March 16, 2010 at 9:42 AM

I disagree because when the GOP did it in the past, they used the “The Dems did it first” ploy. Little of all this legislative sausgage making is all that new, just more public with the advent of better reporting.

highhopes on March 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM

Nope, no 14th Legion coming to the rescue.

However, the 1st Unorganized Militia of the Union might be what you would want… or perhaps the 1st Self-Organized Militia of the Union might be more appropriate. Self-directed, too, come to think of it…

Don’t need no damn Caesar, either.

ajacksonian on March 16, 2010 at 10:35 AM

Good God. The loophole of loopholes.

BobMbx on March 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

History has shown that the proper cleansing for this madness comes from the barrel of a gun. Just sayin’

Electrongod on March 16, 2010 at 10:38 AM

Why doesn’t Pelosi just sign the bill without a vote at all?
uknowmorethanme on March 16, 2010 at 10:16 AM

Why even bother with getting it signed by the President? Keep in mind, the Dem mantra is that by 2012 we will all be gushing about how good a deal it was for the government to take over 1/6th of the economy, stifle free market initiatives for health insurance, and establish an entire new bureaucracy….. just remember you will be thankful when the Dems have courage and vote for this bill.

highhopes on March 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

At a New York Times blog, look at the responses to a Slaughter Rule story.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/passing-legislation-without-voting-on-it/

Everyone sees this as underhanded.

jazzmo on March 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

I’ve said it a number of times and I’ll say it again…

Democrats don’t realize the kind of fire they are playing with here. If they think the tea party movement is bad, wait until rank-and-file Americans start believing that their votes count for nothing.

JohnTant on March 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

Our only hope is that SCOTUS takes a different look at fraud.

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM

The SCOTUS process would be so slow that it will already be enacted by the time it is ever even deemed unconstitutional. Pelosi and her band of criminals know that but they simply don’t care about such concepts as democracy when they are this close to “kicking in the door” to full bore socialism.

highhopes on March 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM

Well I think anyone who has not drank the Kool Aid knows the Slaughter Rule is bad news. But I agree that it was bad news also when the Reps tried it.

First of all the Reps should not have been voting to increase the debt limit. Crap like that is what gave us “The most Ethical Congrss Evah!” LOL. Secondly, congress needs to be voting on actual bills never “deeming” on them to have passed.

jeffn21 on March 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM

Everyone sees this as underhanded.

jazzmo on March 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

But not everybody sees it as wrong. Too many on the left see this as a clever way of enacting something that is unpopular but necessary for the progress of their socialist agenda.

highhopes on March 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM

Matthew Ch 24 V 27: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleaness.
Matthew Ch 24 V 33: Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

mountainmanbob on March 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM

SCOTUS deemed it preferable to have fraudulently-enacted legislation be the law of the land than declare said fraud unconstitutional.

Our only hope is that SCOTUS takes a different look at fraud.

steveegg on March 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM

I for one would not hold out hope that SCOTUS would overrule the legislative branch in this case. It is my opinion that SCOTUS has historically looked at the voters as the fourth branch of government and leaves it up to the voters to undo these major shifts.

WashJeff on March 16, 2010 at 10:48 AM

If they manage to push this through using self-execution, GOP House candidates should push the idea that ALL House Dems voted for this monster. Tar them all!

Ward Cleaver on March 16, 2010 at 10:52 AM

Andy McCarthy has a good response:

At the Examiner, Mark Tapscott points out that when the Republican-controlled Congress used a “self-executing” rule very similar to the “Slaughter rule” to raise the debt ceiling in 2005, Rep. Louise Slaughter — along with Rep. Nancy Pelosi and Rep. Henry Waxman — went to court to try to reverse it, arguing that it was a blatant violation of the Constitution’s procedure for passing legislation (art. I, sec. 7).

The bad news for present purposes is that they lost the case. The D.C. Circuit in Public Citizen v. U.S. District Court upheld the procedure. Upheld in this case does not mean endorsed. The Court did not say the self-executing rule was constitutional. It said it could not reach the question due to the standards of deference that apply between departments of government: If the presiding officers of both houses of Congress attest that their respective chambers have passed a piece of legislation, the Court is required to accept those representations as conclusive.

That doesn’t mean it is proper for government officials to execute a procedure that violates the Constitution, nor does it mean that a presiding officer should attest something that is not true. It does, however, suggest that it may be an uphill battle to get a court to declare the process null and void.

Mark is correct to point out that raising the debt ceiling is (regrettably) a routine, uncontroversial practice. Byron made a similar point yesterday in running down the handful of times the “self-executing” procedure has been followed. The key here is that in each instance, at issue was something that was non-controversial or almost ministerial — not, as with heathcare, an unpopular, bitterly opposed, ragingly controversial socialization of the private economy.

I think Democrats are mistaking a customary short-cut for a substantive precedent.

Let me make a comparison from trial procedure that I believe underscores this point. Like legislation, trial is an expensive, burdensome process governed by constitutional mandates and exacting rules of procedure. If everything were followed to the letter in each case with each witness, trials would take forever. This would waste everyone’s time because, ordinarily, not everything in a case is in dispute.

To use a common example, let’s say I’m accused of selling heroin and my defense is that I wasn’t there — it’s a case of mistaken identity. Now, to prove the case against me, one of several elements the government is required to establish beyond a reasonable doubt is that the substance sold was heroin. The Sixth Amendment guarantees me the right to force the government to bring its witnesses into court, make them testify, and allow my lawyer the opportunity to cross-examine them. I can make the prosecution summon the agent who seized the package from the buyer; the agent who lodged it as evidence and can say that the package now in the courtroom is the same one seized; and the chemist who conducted various tests on the substance inside the package and can show that he is competent to render an expert opinion that the substance is heroin of a given weight and purity.

But wait a minute. My defense is not that the package wasn’t heroin. My defense is that I didn’t sell it. It makes no difference to my case that the package actually contained heroin. It could be the biggest, purist heroin package of all time — I’m not disputing that; I’m saying I wasn’t there.

So even though I have a right to require the government to bring all those witnesses into court and make them testify, I elect not to. The process is called “stipulation.” I agree with the prosecutor that the jury can simply be read a statement that both sides of the case agree that if X witnesses were called, they would testify that the package in the courtroom is the package seized by the agent, and that a competent chemist tested it and found it to be heroin. Instead of hours of testimony, these matters are proved in about 60 seconds. Then we can get on to the real crux of the case: the witnesses who claim that they saw me sell the package to the customer from whom it was seized. With those witnesses, you bet I am going to demand that the government produce them, make them testify under oath, and allow my lawyer to grill them about the lighting conditions, whether they were high on drugs that day, whether they’ve cut a deal and are lying about me to save their own hides, etc.

To analogize, here is what I think the Democrats are doing: They are saying that because I once stipulated, on an uncontroversial issue, and allowed the streamlined proof of a proposition that was of little or no importance to me, I have forever waived my Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights to due process of law and confrontation. They are saying that because I stipulated that the drugs were drugs, I must also stipulate that I was the guy who sold them — that I have forfeited my right to make them come in, testify, and convince the jury that they are telling the truth, as the Constitution requires. In essence, they are saying a trial is no longer a trial with all the attendant guarantees.

No judge would abide such a system. It would turn justice into a kangaroo court. More importantly, the public would no longer regard the judicial system as legitimate. It’s outcomes would no longer be worthy of our acceptance and respect. We would no longer follow its rulings and dictates.

This is what is happening to the legislative process. Sure, we don’t make lawmakers dot every “i” and cross every “t” every time. But that doesn’t mean we’ve abandoned the right to make them play it by the book when it comes to a controversial matter. When there’s a real dispute, they have to pass the bill the regular, constitutionally mandated way: Both houses on the exact same text, with every legislator accountable for his vote.

If, instead, the legislative process becomes a farce that departs from the constitutional procedures we are entitled to enforce, then it no longer represents the consent of the governed. It is the first American principle that government derives its just powers only from the consent of the governed, and when it takes on a form that becomes destructive of the fundamental rights of the governed, it is no longer legitimate.

JohnTant on March 16, 2010 at 10:53 AM

Okay so who exactly will be left with healthcare when the Country is bankrupt? In this day and age they can`t even collect simple data for the census, without going over budget before they collect the data. Imagine Gov run insurance forms. Staff infections would become systemic and deadly, before you ever get approved. If this is so urgent why is it that no one gets coverage for four years?

LSUMama on March 16, 2010 at 10:54 AM

This is like the Civil War in reverse.

Cybergeezer on March 16, 2010 at 10:57 AM

Does pelosi EVAH look the same in any of her photos. I swear there’s an army of clones of her and something went… wrong… which each clone.

Yakko77 on March 16, 2010 at 11:02 AM

Time for a million man march on DC…with guns.

FireFly on March 16, 2010 at 11:05 AM

Fun. I guess that’s game over, if the House bill passes, and I find it hard to believe that they would put it up for vote when they didn’t have the votes.

The funny thing is, by deeming the Senate bill to have passed wit the House Reconciliation vote, I don’t see how they couldn’t just send the Senate bill to be signed, without having to go through the brawl in the Senate, the the Representatives will just have to suck it up and smile.

Voyager on March 16, 2010 at 11:05 AM

HondaV65 on March 16, 2010 at 9:42 AM

BINGO! Think the “O.J. Simpson did it” would be a good murder defense?

Wade on March 16, 2010 at 11:07 AM

Former 10th Circuit judge says the Slaughter Rule is unconstitutional:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704416904575121532877077328.html

Basically it’s what I said before: The House and Senate are constitutionally required to pass the exact same bill before it becomes law:

To become law—hence eligible for amendment via reconciliation—the Senate health-care bill must actually be signed into law. The Constitution speaks directly to how that is done. According to Article I, Section 7, in order for a “Bill” to “become a Law,” it “shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate” and be “presented to the President of the United States” for signature or veto. Unless a bill actually has “passed” both Houses, it cannot be presented to the president and cannot become a law.

Does Marshall mean that the courts will just ignore unconstitutional legislative shenanigans?

gwelf on March 16, 2010 at 11:11 AM

We should start calling it “Slaughter House Rule” you’re goin down in the history books Louise, faster than Massa on a staffer in a…..ah well you’re going down.

Dr Evil on March 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

“Slaughter House Rules” = “Cider House Rules”

Dr Evil on March 16, 2010 at 11:22 AM

Does Marshall mean that the courts will just ignore unconstitutional legislative shenanigans?

gwelf on March 16, 2010 at 11:11 AM

As Marshall is written, yes. Hopefully, we’re all just being punk’ed by Jokin’ Joe Biden.

I can’t seem to find an answer as to what recourse the people have when the legislative branch violates a Constitutional requirement in the process of creating a bill, not on the content of a bill.

Marshall seems to say the Congress is free to do whatever they want, including creating a trifecta of lawmakers; Speaker of the House, President of the Senate, and the President of the United States.

I don’t think SCOTUS has any jurisdiction over process in the legislative branch, nor am I able to find an entity who would have standing to bring a case against them.

BobMbx on March 16, 2010 at 11:36 AM

If Marshall is as bad as it sounds, the only thing stopping a massive lurch to the left is any fear Pelosi and Reid have of being replaced by their chamber’s Dem caucus…containment never looked so bad!

johnny alpha on March 16, 2010 at 11:37 AM

If Marshall is as bad as it sounds, the only thing stopping a massive lurch to the left is any fear Pelosi and Reid have of being replaced by their chamber’s Dem caucus…containment never looked so bad!

johnny alpha on March 16, 2010 at 11:37 AM

Well, there’s always the Free Mason’s, Bilderberger’s, Council on Foreign Relations, Knights Templar and the CIA, all who have a vested interest in the status quo of the world. My guess is having the US become the richest socialist state (but only for a few months) is not on any of the above organizations’ agenda.

Can you say “plane crash”?

BobMbx on March 16, 2010 at 11:42 AM

Pelosi was against it before she was for it. Or she was for it before she was against it. Or something.

UltimateBob on March 16, 2010 at 11:45 AM

Can anyone tell me if we’re permitted to pop HTML tables into comments? I have a call list of 40 Democrats to target. Phone numbers, districts, etc.

Western_Civ on March 16, 2010 at 11:45 AM

A constitutional Crisis…. Great … pass the popcorn….

Hope there’s blood involved

roflmao

donabernathy on March 16, 2010 at 11:57 AM

Raising the debt limit, is a budgetary issue. Shoving down health care that a majority of Americans don’t want, is another. Especially the mandates. It’s still unconstitutional, any way you slice it.

capejasmine on March 16, 2010 at 12:12 PM

this article just proves that both the Ds and the Rs circumvent the constitution when it suits their purposes; we the people are screwed

Willie on March 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM

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