Uh oh: Biden might have power to kill GOP’s tactics against reconciliation
posted at 5:27 pm on March 1, 2010 by Allahpundit
It’s a testament to how arcane a procedure reconciliation is that we haven’t heard this before. Remember, if Obama and Reid go nuclear in the Senate, that’s not the end of the story: The GOP can still try to block the progress of the bill, either by challenging the individual provisions on parliamentary grounds — in theory, only parts that are related to the budget can be passed via reconciliation — or by proposing an endless numbers of amendments to stop the process in its tracks. Keith Hennessey wrote about the latter strategy this morning:
Senate floor debate on a reconciliation bill is limited to 20 hours. There is no limit on amendments that can be offered. This means that, after two full days of debate and amendments, twenty hours will have expired. Any amendments which are queued up (or are then offered) are then voted on, in sequence, with no debate (in theory)…
A well-disciplined Senate majority party can defeat every amendment with a simple majority by simply voting to table (kill) each amendment. This has a slightly different procedural and political feel than defeating the amendment but the same practical effect. Still, the minority can often use the vote-a-rama to force members of the majority party to take politically tough votes. I would expect vulnerable Senate Democrats to be looking to vote with Republicans on some of these votes to avoid political risks for their campaign. This should not be too big of a challenge for Leader Reid, since he needs to hold only 50 of 59 for each tabling vote. He can allow vulnerable individual Democrats to take a walk on particularly difficult amendments.
The novel twist this time would be the possibility of a Senate Republican filibuster by amendment during the vote-a-rama. Even a single Republican could, in theory, offer an infinite sequence of amendments to each word of the bill, never allowing Leader Reid to get to final passage.
The burning question: Is there some way Reid can shut them down? According to Norman Ornstein of AEI, yes. They could … ask Joe Biden to do it:
“The vice president can rule that amendments are dilatory,” Norm Ornstein, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and one of the foremost experts on congressional process, told the Huffington Post. “That they are not serious attempts to amend the bill but are designed without substance to obstruct. He can rule them out of order and he can do that on bloc.”
“There are time limits,” Ornstein added. “It is not that they can keep doing it over and over again.”
As Ornstein added, there are potential downsides to the vice president wielding any of these two institutional powers. For starters, it further politicizes a process that is already being criticized as overly political. Moreover, it could spur serious discussion of whether the Obama administration is engaged in an institutional power grab and/or upheaval of Congress.
The veep presides over the Senate so the veep has the final say; even the Senate parliamentarian, the de facto authority on whether any given provision of the bill qualifies as “budgetary” or not, merely advises Biden on his final ruling. If they’re willing to game the process and abuse reconciliation to pass the bill, why wouldn’t Slow Joe be willing to overrule the parliamentarian and let them pass whichever provisions they want? It’s a microcosm of the entire ObamaCare process thus far: The public’s already disgusted with the substance and procedure of what’s going on, so why shouldn’t the Dems let them feel a tiny bit more disgusted in order en route to getting this thing passed? It’s kamikaze time, remember?
Also via HuffPo, here’s 90 seconds of former parliamentarian Robert Dove assuring MSNBC this morning that, yes indeed, Biden is the ultimate referee here. What could go wrong?
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Interesting. It appears that Palin was quite right when she pointed out the power in the Senate that the VP has. *hehe
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 5:30 PM
go for it at their peril, by the way you lost me at effective majority leader.
rob verdi on March 1, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Indeed. Vindication?
conservative pilgrim on March 1, 2010 at 5:31 PM
I hope Biden does his job and shuts down the debate. Let’s just see how well that flies in November. Then next January, if the GOP wins a majority in both houses, we’ll see about dismantling this behemoth before it can get started.
Tennman on March 1, 2010 at 5:32 PM
Biden’s been run over by so many buses, what’s wrong with him taking one for the team. All this does is take the bright light off the roaches that wrote this disaster.
Rovin on March 1, 2010 at 5:32 PM
“This deal is getting worse by the minute”
Republicans better make good notes during all of this, so that they can use the same tactics to undo all this crap in 2013.
Iblis on March 1, 2010 at 5:33 PM
So we’re good, then, right?
Bruno Strozek on March 1, 2010 at 5:34 PM
In the end Dems want to keep their jobs. Many will not fall on the sword for Obama .
CWforFreedom on March 1, 2010 at 5:34 PM
All a great mind game. But that discussion is about the Senate. But if you look at the lay of the land, this whole effort will live or die on the House floor. If Dear Speaker lacks the votes, its all toast.
Dr. Dog on March 1, 2010 at 5:34 PM
“If you want the debate to continue, stand up Chuck.”
RBMN on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
Oh, maybe 1 lone blogger will mention it.
Come on. We know she’s not going to be given credit.
BTW, Perry, whom she pushed……doing well in Texas. McCain looks today like he might pull his bid out of the fire.
:)
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
HuffPo? Sounds as if the SCOTUS may come into play? Then what?
d1carter on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
what makes you think they have 50 in the Senate?
rob verdi on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
It wasn’t clear to me whether Biden has to actually preside over the 20 hours of debate.
Seriously, that’s asking a lot of him, especially for a guy who “doesn’t really have to do anything.” It would descend into theatre.
DaydreamBeliever on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
Then he can also use his other VP responsibility and go to the Democratic party’s funeral.
chunderroad on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
That’s alright, let him do it . . . the Republicans just must be certain that Obama and his enabling congress have sole ownership of this bucket of rancid worms.
rplat on March 1, 2010 at 5:37 PM
But I thought that VPs didn’t really do anything? I could’ve sworn I remember FDR talking about this on TV after the stock market crashed…
Joe Caps on March 1, 2010 at 5:37 PM
The only thing Biden should do is worry about his J.O.B.(s).
upinak on March 1, 2010 at 5:38 PM
by the way, say Biden overrules an amendment, what is to stop resubmission of the same amendment with different wording, does he have the power to prevent submission of further amendments? If not doesn’t this simply add another layer of theater.
rob verdi on March 1, 2010 at 5:38 PM
I’m not sure Biden is smart enough to do this. I mean we are talking about Joe biden here.
tommer74 on March 1, 2010 at 5:38 PM
Joe Biden make a decisions? He can’t even decide which tie to wear. We’ve gone from Darth Cheney to Jar-Jar Biden.
kingsjester on March 1, 2010 at 5:38 PM
I can’t think of better person to screw this up than Joe Biden. GO JOE GO!
Dire Straits on March 1, 2010 at 5:39 PM
Biden couldn’t come up with this on his own. Too bad this was outed…
ladyingray on March 1, 2010 at 5:40 PM
Isn’t Biden the 58th vote in the Senate?
daesleeper on March 1, 2010 at 5:40 PM
Isn’t the discussion of Biden pulling the plug on the GOP’s tactic against reconciliation a moot point? The GOP surprised many with their stand at the HC summit, but will they do everything possible to prevent the passage of this bill? I hope so, but think they will back down.
conservative pilgrim on March 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM
What could go wrong?
Lily on March 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM
It would suck if Joe had to actually work. He claimed having nothing to do was the best part of the job.
Sleep easy America. Sheriff Joe has it under control.
Sugar Land on March 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM
To borrow from Kingjester, so Jar Jar Biden gets to shut down the bar in Star Wars.
TXUS on March 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM
The Unitar(d)y Executive
hit and run on March 1, 2010 at 5:42 PM
I keep remembering that for reconciliation to take place, the House has to pass the existing Senate bill. But at that point, Teh Won can sign it into law, and reconciliation becomes irrelevant.
What could go right? Not much, I’m thinking.
NeighborhoodCatLady on March 1, 2010 at 5:42 PM
Our luck he got thoroughly vetted.
the_nile on March 1, 2010 at 5:43 PM
And these are 2 things that the Democrats only give lip service to caring about…we’re totally screwed.
gwelf on March 1, 2010 at 5:43 PM
If there were any way for the GOP to honestly introduce a decent, real, HCR plan, now would be it.
I know it’s not possible.
I think the GOP keeps having to send the message that they DO hear the needs, the real problems people are having.
This is not the time for some hard-ass message about how, “You screwed up and lost your job because you’re dumb, so if you’re family suffers, too bad” kind of conservative message.
That’s a bit hard for some conservatives to “get.”
This “indiviualism” message is about as popular as a mandate to purchase insurance.
If you doubt that?
Win the battle.
And then watch yourselves lose that battle quickly.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 5:43 PM
But she’s STOOOOOOOOOOOOpid!!!
deidre on March 1, 2010 at 5:44 PM
Not that easy… the Repubs would need a SUPER Majority in the Senate (to get cloture)… and enough votes in the House to over ride Obama’s inevitable Veto.
If this is voted in, no way its gone until after the next PRESIDENTIAL election… at the earliest.
Romeo13 on March 1, 2010 at 5:44 PM
Thank goodness we dodged that Palin bullet, huh?
Remember how that pathetic moron Matt Damon fretted over Palin as VP? Goes to show you how myopic and foolish the Hollywood left* is.
*They are a number of things, but I prefer to keep my comments free of excessive invective and expletives.
Richard Romano on March 1, 2010 at 5:44 PM
2700 pages and counting and Biden would have to rule on amendments by the thousands that could be attached to the words like THE if the GOP wanted to.
rob verdi on March 1, 2010 at 5:44 PM
Shut. The Government. Down. These people no longer have the consent of the governed and these histrionics prove it.
Skywise on March 1, 2010 at 5:45 PM
This is assuming, of course, that all Democrats are on board (they’re not), and that many others won’t get cold feet after the Nov. elections (they will).
Richard Romano on March 1, 2010 at 5:46 PM
This all assumes that Pelosi has 216 in the House. Funny thing is, I don’t think she has 216 for PlaceboCare version 4.0. After all, she barely got to 218 for 2.0, and things have changed since then.
steveegg on March 1, 2010 at 5:47 PM
Yep; They’ll get into every wallet through our colon.
Cybergeezer on March 1, 2010 at 5:47 PM
And counter strike with a fair/flat tax to wipe out the IRS and pave our way to prosperity. Hey, if they can shove this down our throats, who’s to say our side can’t do the same..right back at you libs…right back at ya
javamartini on March 1, 2010 at 5:47 PM
No no no no no
There are 58 states, that means we have 116 senators. A simple majority would require 58 + Biden so he would be the 59th vote.
It’s not rocket surgery, geez…
Joe Caps on March 1, 2010 at 5:48 PM
What a tool.
Aviator on March 1, 2010 at 5:50 PM
I can imagine Joe could screw this up.
Elizabetty on March 1, 2010 at 5:50 PM
Oh great. Epic facepalm.
What’s the definition of “moderation” as in “moderation in drinking”.
rbj on March 1, 2010 at 5:50 PM
If the GOP were the ones trying to do this for something related to national security, the NYT and HuffPo would be in absolute hysterics right now.
WisCon on March 1, 2010 at 5:50 PM
*bangs head repeatedly against wall*
Ingenue on March 1, 2010 at 5:50 PM
They can still shut down the senate, right? Right?
promachus on March 1, 2010 at 5:51 PM
That needs to be posted on whitehouse.gov.
Cybergeezer on March 1, 2010 at 5:51 PM
Palin Says Vice President “In Charge Of” Senate
October 22, 2008 7:51 AM
From another website, Think Progress:
Who’s the dummy now?
Enoxo on March 1, 2010 at 5:51 PM
IT’S DEMOCRAT JIHAD!
Cybergeezer on March 1, 2010 at 5:52 PM
In the end Dems want to keep their jobs. Many will not fall on the sword for Obama .
CWforFreedom on March 1, 2010 at 5:34 PM
//
I use to think that but anymore I think there are enough that have been brainwashed by this man and his agenda that they will follow over the cliff.I hope I’m wrong though.
ohiobabe on March 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM
My question to you is, so? What follows after this?
Richard Romano on March 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM
Is Biden really up to the task of keeping up with all these machinations? He may end up doing more damage than good for the democrats.
fourdeucer on March 1, 2010 at 5:54 PM
Hey, you know if the Democrats destroy the Senate it’s makes their Venezuela utopia much easier to install. Of course there is still the issue of what to do about the people’s guns.
tarpon on March 1, 2010 at 5:54 PM
Here’s the problem with general snark remarks.
Am I a tool for Palin, whom I’ve pointed out was right about the role of the VP in the debate that the press jeered her about?
Or am I a tool for Obama, whom I’ve pointed out COULD be setting up his own Dem Congress to take the heat, while he rides in like the hero with a real plan? (highly unlikely, from what I’ve seen)
Or am I tool because I see the need for HCR. I hope you mean this one.
I absolutely believe in the need for change.
I absolutely don’t care who agrees or disagrees with me on this one.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 5:55 PM
Exactly. She was precient.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 5:55 PM
Upcoming headline:
Joe Biden mistakenly votes with Republicans and kills Obamacare bill.
The Veep shrugged and smiled and said:
“Stand up, God love ya!”
profitsbeard on March 1, 2010 at 5:56 PM
Speaking of legislation; When did the Democrats declare their “fatwa” against the American People?
Cybergeezer on March 1, 2010 at 5:57 PM
Biden is so much of a non-threat here, it’s not even funny!
Besides, he’s the one who said the great thing about being the VPOTUS is that you have virtually nothing to do.
So just let him keep doing what he is doing here!
Namely nothing!
pilamaye on March 1, 2010 at 5:58 PM
they somehow think that if they ram it down BEFORE the Easter recess we will somehow be less pixxed at them when they come home for Easter..botoxed still leading the blind
what they mean is if the Critters are exposed to THEIR CONSTITUENTS before the vote they will be stopped…
that is their pocket Ace, they keep the Critters wrapped in Pelosi approved cotton wool up there on the Hill and tell them, ignore those polls, look at these! ignore those calls, look at these ‘anecdotes’ !
so Biden will be the final vote needed to overule the ‘majority’ will of the American people?
well, another reason to be grateful Hillary didnt get VEEP
November cannot come soon enough
ginaswo on March 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM
And,so,the madness continues,at Liberal Light Speed!!
canopfor on March 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM
You are a tool on so many levels. I tried to respond to you once, I was exhausted from chasing the goal posts you kept moving.
Aviator on March 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM
Not if we take it in incremental pieces. There are ways to dismantle without overturning an entire Act with a capital A. If you legislate something that destroys a lynchpin, it only takes a simple majority.
Granted, you still need a supermajority to override a veto. But if Obama’s popularity continues to slide, and if the Blue Dogs keep their seats by the smallest margins, a supermajority in fact is possible.
Tennman on March 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM
We could be looking at a serious constitutional crisis here. If they try this, it will be a metaphorical running gunfight till midterms.
a capella on March 1, 2010 at 6:00 PM
“As Ornstein added, there are potential downsides to the vice president wielding any of these two institutional powers. For starters, it further politicizes a process that is already being criticized as overly political. Moreover, it could spur serious discussion of whether the Obama administration is engaged in an institutional power grab and/or upheaval of Congress.”
If the Dhim’s are bold enough to bring this to the “nuclear option”, does anyone honestly beleive they’re to timid to weather the additional politicization of Biden interposing in this manner?
I mean really, if they are in for a penny, they are in for a pound. The Dhim’s are all-in with this hand and will pass it by whatever means necessary, country be damned.
Archimedes on March 1, 2010 at 6:02 PM
Funding can be denied on crucial parts.
a capella on March 1, 2010 at 6:02 PM
We shouldn’t be too surprised it’s come to this. Our local lefty trolls as well as Democrats at the recent ObamaCare debate with the GOP all regularly liken healthcare to a fundamental right, that we don’t have it a crime akin to Segregation etc. This is their mind set: the fact we don’t have universal healthcare is an egregious crime against humanity – and they’re going to do what it takes to do the ‘right’ thing – democracy be damned. After all who wouldn’t cut a few corners to save humanity?
Our only hope is that Pelosi/Obama/Reid are incompetent and/or unsuccessful at convincing enough Democrats that it’s worth dying on this hill (or that they’ve already died on this hill).
gwelf on March 1, 2010 at 6:03 PM
There you go. Great thinking!
Tennman on March 1, 2010 at 6:04 PM
How come we never heard/read this before? It’s kind of a big deal.
toliver on March 1, 2010 at 6:08 PM
Heh.
ladyingray on March 1, 2010 at 6:08 PM
Blame it on the plugs!
Rovin on March 1, 2010 at 6:09 PM
You read the news last friday that Eric Holder and Obama want the Assault Weapons Ban reinstated, right?
AW1 Tim on March 1, 2010 at 6:09 PM
I think the
articulated something we need to seriously address. If the house passes the senate version and the “won” signs it then it becomes law. My guess, at that point, is that Harry Reid tells Nancy and the house to stuff it and the repubs and America is just totally screwed.
chemman on March 1, 2010 at 6:10 PM
Yes, and I remember Tingle Leg Chrissy having a cow over her suggestion of same.
aquaviva on March 1, 2010 at 6:11 PM
Provide your support for your statement. When did any conservative in Congress say this?
ladyingray on March 1, 2010 at 6:11 PM
I think Sarah has amazing instincts, politically.
She somehow saw this coming.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 6:11 PM
Greasy under Bidens oicture….Hilarious!
Dritanian on March 1, 2010 at 6:12 PM
They go the full nuclear route and they’ll pay heavily for years to come. And the next 3 years NOTHING will get done in the Senate.
GarandFan on March 1, 2010 at 6:12 PM
Whatever that means.
But that’s OK by me.
I guess your last post was a bit of self-indulgence, then.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 6:13 PM
Seriously, that’s asking a lot of him, especially for a guy who “doesn’t really have to do anything.” It would descend into theatre.
DaydreamBeliever on March 1, 2010 at 5:35 PM
Probably just sit there and pick his nose all day, if he skips lunch, well you figure it out.
heshtesh on March 1, 2010 at 6:13 PM
Do they really think we will just turn in or register our semi-automatics turned assault weapons at their passage of a bill. I for one won’t.
chemman on March 1, 2010 at 6:13 PM
I have a hard time believing that enough Dems will change their “no” to a “yes”, particularly if Biden shuts down the GOP.
Of course, they may be that stupid…
ladyingray on March 1, 2010 at 6:14 PM
Nobody. I do see it from conservatives on blogs. That’s all I meant.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 6:14 PM
Don’t you think it’s best for Republicans to strategize as if the Democrats did have 50 votes?
Edouard on March 1, 2010 at 6:14 PM
Dismantling this thing while Obama is still in office would require a veto-proof majority. That’s not going to happen in this year’s elections. Once it’s done, it’s done until at least 2013 when (hopefully) a new president takes office.
cirrus on March 1, 2010 at 6:15 PM
I have long expressed the opinion that Obama will do something so outside of constitutional government that people will not know what to do about it.
Using the power of his government office, Obama seized General Motors, stripping share holders and bond holders of their value, and awarding title to the company to his party loyalists in the United Auto Workers.
Without opposition, Obama has no reason to not take another step, another bite of the apple. He could easily invent some rational to justify an extreme position and there would be no one in the country who could stop him politically.
If you cling to the belief that it can not happen in the United States you are delusional. All it takes is someone with enough audacity to make the attempt.
How many army battalions are commanded by the Supreme Court?
Who will enforce a Supreme Court decision when those who should enforce it are under the command of the Supreme Leader?
Skandia Recluse on March 1, 2010 at 6:15 PM
This is my second request for proof of your statement. Please provide link,s proof, support that any conservative in Congress has said this.
ladyingray on March 1, 2010 at 6:17 PM
Oh, crow is good with gravy, eh?
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 6:18 PM
I thought you said you lived in S. Calif. That statement makes it appear you have spent too much time in San Fran or the northern enviros. of Calif. where you breathed in to much second hand THC.
chemman on March 1, 2010 at 6:18 PM
Links to the conservative blogs, please.
ladyingray on March 1, 2010 at 6:18 PM
The GOP message should be – “We believe government should get out of peoples way in solving their own problems and the free markets ability to make products (e.g., healthcare, energy etc) more widely available for a lower price.”
It’s not the governments job to provide cradle to grave assurances of anything except those things contained in the Bill of Rights. Period.
gwelf on March 1, 2010 at 6:19 PM
Said the thread whore. Answer ladyingray. The fact you don’t respond just illustrates why it is not worth the effort to actually respond to your drivel.
Aviator on March 1, 2010 at 6:21 PM
Just remember all of this reconciliation discussion is moot if the House doesn’t pass the Senate bill.
Kill it in the House.
Stephen Macklin on March 1, 2010 at 6:21 PM
I have great faith in our military to do the right thing. They do not swear loyalty to any president or person. They swear an oath to the Constitution, and from the grumblings already present throughout the ranks, it is clear that Obama could not count on them to obey an illegal order.
AW1 Tim on March 1, 2010 at 6:22 PM
Of course, in the short term, ripping out all of the funding for it can be done with a simple majority in EITHER the house or the senate! Newt shutting down the Federal government comes to mind quite quickly!
Meantime, I still think all the Republicans need to do is to setup an ammendment that changes the entire 600,000+ page tax code and make em read it all! One ammendment, and 2+ years to read it! Joe cannot stop a debate that has not started!
Freddy on March 1, 2010 at 6:23 PM
Your post seems to put you in the position of arguing that the GOP needs to propose their own version of how to socialize America and ‘take care of people’. Is this what you really think? If so I think you have somehow completely misread the majority mood in this country.
gwelf on March 1, 2010 at 6:23 PM
This is why in the original constitution the VP was the runner up in the presidential election, as another check on executive power.
Daveyardbird on March 1, 2010 at 6:23 PM
Oh, come on people. I’m not going to repost nasty messages from far-right people.
That is the reputation, however.
And you really do need to stop denying that. The reputation of the far-right is that they are rigid about helping anyone out. It’s a kind of contemporary dog-eat-dog environment taken to the max, quoting Reagan all the way.
Look at the thread about Wi-Fi!
I listen more to moderate GOP. They do understand that healthcare is a HUGE issue, not only on individual families but also on the global competitiveness.
My personal opinion is simple. The GOP doesn’t go far enough to address the problems.
The DEM plan goes too far and does too little.
I’d really personally like to see a real compromise, with the best of both.
AnninCA on March 1, 2010 at 6:24 PM
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