New ObamaCare bill: Are you ready for price controls on insurance premiums? Update: CBO can’t score bill this week

posted at 11:45 am on February 22, 2010 by Allahpundit

Not quite a year after he first started pushing Congress to pass something, The One finally puts his own plan on the table. Here’s the overview, the newsiest bit of which is a new federal Health Insurance Rate Authority to oversee “unreasonable” premium increases. And with that, it’s suddenly clear why there’s no public option in the package: As Tom Maguire notes, if things work out as badly as expected, America will come begging for a public plan soon enough.

The long run effects won’t be helpful for the insurance industry but they will be good for advancing the interests of the Democratic Party. A key Democratic goal of health reform (as was kicked around during the HillaryCare debacle) is to create a new middle-class entitlement. If this plays out like Social Security it will tie the middle class to their benefactors in the Democratic Party, which will forever position itself as the party of more generous benefits paid for by Someone Else.

A price control board can advance that same goal, since the Democrats can position themselves as the champions of lower prices for all. In the not-so-long run insurer won’t be able to make a reasonable profit and will exit the industry, and coverage will be scarce (but cheap!). At that point the collapse of the private market will be offered as further evidence of the desirability of a full government take-over of health care, or at least, the adoption of a stalking-goat “public option”.

They’re going to starve the beast, to borrow a line that’s suddenly back in vogue on the NYT op-ed page, and then replace it. That’s one easy point for the GOP to make at the summit on Thursday; another, anticipated last night by the Times and already in full swing this morning among GOP aides, is that having a price-control mechanism in place even before O-Care’s up and running tells you a lot about what the Dems expect will happen to premiums once this debacle passes. But those are big-picture long-term critiques whereas The One’s thinking short-term, i.e. whom does he need to demagogue to kick up just enough popular support to finally get this thing through Congress and off the table. The boss emeritus saw this coming two weeks ago after the uproar in California over the Anthem rate hikes and now here it is, just in time for the 60-day push. It’d be lovely to think the GOP will challenge him on this come Thursday, but let’s face it: Defending free-market insurance rate-setting while anti-Anthem populist outrage is roiling is a poison pill, particularly given their wariness of carrying the “party of big business” label into November. Expect them to challenge him on cost instead — estimated pricetag: $1 trillion over 10 years — and of course on unintended consequences to Medicare. We are, after all, the party of AARP now.

But maybe I’m worried for nothing. A big part of our new “bipartisan” White House’s strategy going forward is to create high-profile political theater that puts the “party of no” in a position of having to say no, so maybe this is all just a means to that end, with the price-control board to mysteriously drop out before final passage. Same with the emphasis this week on “transparency”: The One put his bill online this morning, he’s having a televised summit later this week, and, why look — he’s even stripped out Ben Nelson’s Cornhusker Kickback to prove what a stalwart opponent he is of backroom deals. Transparency! (The backroom deal with unions to raise the tax threshold on “Cadillac” plans remains intact, natch, albeit extended to everyone now, not just labor.) The perpetual campaign is indeed perpetual, my friends.

Stand by for updates as the punditocracy reacts. Exit question: According to the Times, Obama’s plan doesn’t include the Stupak amendment on abortion. What happens now in the House?

Update: Philip Klein runs the numbers and proclaims it essentially a more expensive version of Reid’s bill. Can’t wait.

To finance the changes, President Obama proposes raising taxes even more than the Senate plan does. Under Obama’s proposal, higher income workers would see their portion of the Medicare payroll tax double, to 2.9 percent. The tax would create a marriage penalty by applying to individuals earning over $200,000 and couples earning over $250,000. When the original version of the Senate health care bill was produced, the Medicare tax on those earning over $200,000 was supposed to be 0.5 percent. In the version that passed in December, the tax had been raised to 0.9 percent. And though it hasn’t even been made law yet, Obama is raising the payroll tax for the third time, to 1.45 percent (that’s on top of the 1.45 percent all workers already pay). This follows the historical pattern of payroll taxes, which have increased 20 times since first introduced in 1935, going from a combined total of 2 percent (including employer/employee contributions) to 12.4 percent today. When adding the new Obama tax, the rate would be almost 14 percent on higher incomes.

Update: Philip Klein updates to say that he’s tweaked his math. Turns out that The One’s actually doing a 2.9 percent capital gains tax on top of the Senate bill’s tax.

Update: Another reason why Thursday’s O-Care summit is useless: The new bill that’s supposed to provide a starting point for negotiations will come without any pricetag attached.

This morning the Obama Administration released a description of its health care proposal, and CBO has already received several requests to provide a cost estimate for that proposal. We had not previously received the proposal, and we have just begun the process of reviewing it—a process that will take some time, given the complexity of the issues involved. Although the proposal reflects many elements that were included in the health care bills passed by the House and the Senate last year, it modifies many of those elements and also includes new ones. Moreover, preparing a cost estimate requires very detailed specifications of numerous provisions, and the materials that were released this morning do not provide sufficient detail on all of the provisions. Therefore, CBO cannot provide a cost estimate for the proposal without additional detail, and, even if such detail were provided, analyzing the proposal would be a time-consuming process that could not be completed this week.

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5

There some who would disagree with that, but I think you are right.
The problem is when you give an inch they take a mile.
It’s exasperating!

Badger40 on February 22, 2010 at 2:31 PM

True.

The starting point is always where we currently stand. When someone makes the statement that government regulation is beneficial it’s almost always from the stand point that MORE is needed from where we are at NOW – which is ludicrous. I can see why people are reflexively against regulation.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 2:35 PM

Inept
Inexperienced
In the hole with the voters

Wished he was in Paaaaaakistan modeling for a new statue.

bluegrass on February 22, 2010 at 2:35 PM

And with that, it’s suddenly clear why there’s no public option in the package: As Tom Maguire notes, if things work out as badly as expected, America will come begging for a public plan soon enough.

This is why on all issues (not just related to health care) I continue to be annoyed at fellow conservatives who are simply cheering at The One’s demise, thinking he’s just some inexperienced moron. HE’S A RADICAL! We even have him on record saying he’d be fining being a one termer (assuming he accomplishes “fundamental transformation” that he promised).

Don’t you people get it yet? If you bring the economy and country to it’s knees, there will be no system left to bring us back up. Most of the country will give up and turn to the government for all services because they’ll have no other option.

I know, it’s hard to accept this… But does the evidence really point in any other direction? Think about it… No one ever thought the stimulus was a good thing. Then why pass it? Why the push for economy destroying cap and trade (which is invented under the guise of fighting something that doesn’t even exist – AGW)? Why the push for health care we know has failed everywhere in the world?

WAKE THE F UP PEOPLE!

RightWinged on February 22, 2010 at 2:37 PM

Where are you finding these polls? The ones I see show a majority of people are happy with their healthcare and don’t want changes, are opposed to any of the Democrat plans (and will be even more when they see that Obama’s calling for even *more* taxes in that regard), etc.

You should looks somewhere other than lefty websites for your polls, perhaps.

Midas on February 22, 2010 at 2:28 PM

Well, of course. The majority of people never use their insurance, other than to get a flu shot or treatment for an allergy attack.

But I think there are plenty of polls that indicate that people are very worried over healthcare. They either are afraid of losing their employer-based insurance due to layoffs or have a relative who has experienced that. Then, there are the horror stories of people who have paid premiums, feeling protected, only to be purged when they actually use the insurance.

I think people want some oversight on this industry, definitely. What we’re frustrated by is that Congress isn’t really delivering a reasonable solution.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

He’s off to class! At the Most Prestigious Law School in the Country.

We’re gonna be sooo sorry when SCOTUS Clerk crr6 comes back to educate us rubes.

Techie on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

And you think that we need to protect the insurance industry like Baby Jesus?

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 1:27 PM

I need some clarification on this. What is it that you think is protecting them? And from whom/what?

anuts on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

Six years, not eight. The problems started when the democrats took Congress.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:26 PM

Shhhh. Don’t confuse the liberal with reality. She’s already on the brink of completely losing lost it.

And it is good.

uknowmorethanme on February 22, 2010 at 2:28 PM

I think that reads better.

Midas on February 22, 2010 at 2:29 PM

My bad. I guess I was hoping for continued meltdown.

uknowmorethanme on February 22, 2010 at 2:39 PM

For every person calling for some form of health care reform, there are at least two people who like the current system as it stands. I fail to see the reasoning for the frantic suicidal charge to fix something that most of the adults in this country do not think is broken. Everything the government touches winds up costing 2-3 times what was first projected. That is a fact and can’t be argued with by anyone on the left or right. If the CBO scores Obama’s plan at $1 trillion over 10 years, it will cost at least $3-4 trillion in reality. And we simply can’t afford that. All of the Dems plans count on a fake savings of anywhere from $500 billion to $1 trillion in savings by eliminating waste and fraud from Medicare and Medicaid. That simply is not going to happen.

Johnnyreb on February 22, 2010 at 2:39 PM

Well, of course. The majority of people never use their insurance, other than to get a flu shot or treatment for an allergy attack.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

How do you keep coming up with this insane stuff all the time? Honestly, a flu short or an allergy attack? Where the heck did those two examples come from? Point to any study that says most people never use their health insurance. If that were true then there would be no “crisis” of health care in the country that Obama is claiming. You are truly a wonder at times.

Johnnyreb on February 22, 2010 at 2:44 PM

For every person calling for some form of health care reform, there are at least two people who like the current system as it stands. I fail to see the reasoning for the frantic suicidal charge to fix something that most of the adults in this country do not think is broken.

Oh, I think people know it’s broken. However, we’re not too willing to take “medicine” that’s worst than the problem.

Most people have an instinct on that one.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:44 PM

How do you keep coming up with this insane stuff all the time? Honestly, a flu short or an allergy attack? Where the heck did those two examples come from? Point to any study that says most people never use their health insurance. If that were true then there would be no “crisis” of health care in the country that Obama is claiming. You are truly a wonder at times.

Johnnyreb on February 22, 2010 at 2:44 PM

It’s sort of commonsense. Most people are healthy.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:45 PM

I think people want some oversight on this industry, definitely. What we’re frustrated by is that Congress isn’t really delivering a reasonable solution.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

Yes, that’s just what we need. More oversight. We could have oversight of insurance companies, then oversight of state insurance commissions who already have oversight over insurance companies then have the federal oversight commission to oversee the state insurance commissions and they all could be watched over by the White House oversight board which would be responsible for creating more regulation to ensure that the oversight of the oversight boards were being done in accordance to other regulations written by other federal agencies.

That’s exactly what we need … more regulation and oversight. That will certainly make insurance cheaper and better. No doubt.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:45 PM

The President’s bill is, of course, sheer madness. So what if they pass this by 51 votes? What then?

Rational Thought on February 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM

I think, and I hope I am correct, that this big event is nothing more than an INFOMERCIAL for the democrats in Congress, i.e. an effort at rat herding as some of the rats are thinking of leaving a sinking ship.

The Anointed One of course hopes this will lead to the national socialist democrat version of liberal fascism. But it is a big risk for the FUBO AO and he may end up with rat feces all over his face. We shall see.

Dhuka on February 22, 2010 at 2:47 PM

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:45 PM

The answer to the age-old Roman question, “Who guards the guards?”

Liam on February 22, 2010 at 2:48 PM

When someone makes the statement that government regulation is beneficial it’s almost always from the stand point that MORE is needed from where we are at NOW – which is ludicrous.

State of the Union response sucked because he said government needs to be in everything that the private sector cannot provide.

PrezHussein on February 22, 2010 at 2:48 PM

The answer to the age-old Roman question, “Who guards the guards?”

Liam on February 22, 2010 at 2:48 PM

Which is why the 1st and 2nd amendments are so important.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 2:52 PM

It’s sort of commonsense. Most people are healthy.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:45 PM

Then the question remains unanswered – if X million people are uninsured, but most are healthy and wouldn’t use the insurance if they had it (as you’ve pointed out in at least two different comments now), why is this a crisis?

I anxiously await your global-warmingesque answer in which any and all anecdotal commentary, whether supportive or contradictory, indicates that there’s a problem.

Midas on February 22, 2010 at 2:52 PM

Lets see…

The Four most regulated industries in the US…

Banks, which needed TARP.

Auto Companies, which needed a Governemnt bailout…

Energy companies, with no energy growth… high prices, and no end of importing energy in sight…

And the Health Insurance industry… which STATES regulate, but is not in “crises” according to the left…

The LEAST regulated Industries?

Computers? going strong…

Internet? still rockin…

TV (cable vs. satelite)? Doing well…

Hmmmm… and the “fix” for the already regulated industries which are failing? More government control…

Seeing a pattern yet?

Romeo13 on February 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM

I demand the government take over Hot Air. The government would make Hot Air better because it’s what the government does … make things better and cheaper … that’s a well known fact.

I think Hot Air needs to be regulated, and we need more oversight because sometimes people make other people look stupid, and they get their feelings hurt. More regulation would fix that. Also, Marxists, progressives, communists, socialists, climate nuts and anarchists are underrepresented at Hot Air. This would be easily fixed by more regulation and oversight.

Oversight Now! Regulation Now!

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM

Seeing a pattern yet?

Romeo13 on February 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM

The logic, the common sense … it hurts! Make it stop!

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:59 PM

Romeo13 on February 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM

We have a thread winner.

In fact, copy and paste that into most other threads from here on out.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 3:03 PM

Freedom is the problem, the government is the solution.

Gobama 2012!

/libtar

cntrlfrk on February 22, 2010 at 3:04 PM

Government oversight and regulation is a never-ending tunnel. There will always be something that isn’t ‘quite right’ somewhere, so it needs to be addressed.

Suppose there are police cameras at every corner to catch speeders, but the program isn’t 100% effective because a growing number of people are stealing license plates. Instant crisis!

The solution: mandate coded GPS transmitters specific to every vehicle sold in the country, specific to the buyer. If someone buys privately, a department can be set up so the old owner and new buyer fill out forms to change over the car’s code to the new owner.

And extreme example, maybe, but my drift is clear. I mean, where does it ever end?

The same with Health Control. There will always be something with the system that needs to be tweaked, usually at an exorbitant cost.

Liam on February 22, 2010 at 3:06 PM

Are you ready for price controls

He’s neither Carter 3 nor GW Bush 3 — he’s Nixon 3! Gotta keep workin’ that execs’ wages bugaboo, though, if he hopes to carry it off.

ya2daup on February 22, 2010 at 3:08 PM

The LA Times had an interesting quote this weekend, about how New York’s insurance rates went up to $9000/yr. after New York legislated a “take all comers” policy. What people would do is not buy insurance at all, wait until a catastrophic illness occurred, and then walk in and buy the policy on the way to the hospital. So all the actuarial work indicated this type of behavior, and the insurance companies raised their rates to compensate.

Indeed, that’s what Anthem/Blue Cross was seeing in their non-group sales across the country, which is why those rates have gone up so much.

unclesmrgol on February 22, 2010 at 3:08 PM

Every industry needs rules and regulations. But you don’t cut off an arm for a broken finger. I’m all for some adjustments to the industry. But it does not take governmental price controls and the taking over of 1/6th of the American Economy. I will oppose to my dying breath the remaking of America into a Decocrat Socialist Country. Obamacare is a major step in that direction.

kingsjester on February 22, 2010 at 2:26 PM

I think we can agree on that. My point was to show why Anthem’s actions have created such outrage and why that outrage is understandable and perhaps even justified.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:08 PM

Also, Marxists, progressives, communists, socialists, climate nuts and anarchists are underrepresented at Hot Air. This would be easily fixed by more regulation and oversight. quotas.
darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM

FIFY.

TeresainFortWorth on February 22, 2010 at 3:08 PM

… it’s what the government does … make things better and cheaper … that’s a well known fact.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM

You left out “shinier”!

ya2daup on February 22, 2010 at 3:10 PM

Good grief, will someone please stand up and state the obvious: We cannot afford this! And what bullshyte convoluted interpretation of the Commerce Clause gives the federal government the right to subvert states and decide what an unreasonable premium increase is?

Please wake me from this nightmare.

NoLeftTurn on February 22, 2010 at 3:10 PM

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

Yours seems to be a standard Democratic talking point (voters are really want health care). Well, it wasn’t high up on the list of issues on election day in 2008, and it hasn’t been since then.

Here’s a link to a roundup of health care polls for the last four months:

Polling Numbers for Health Care Legislation (Obamacare)

Nichevo on February 22, 2010 at 3:11 PM

He’s neither Carter 3 nor GW Bush 3 — he’s Nixon 3! Gotta keep workin’ that execs’ wages bugaboo, though, if he hopes to carry it off.
ya2daup on February 22, 2010 at 3:08 PM

If Barry the Bolshevik keeps on going the way he has, he’s on track to make James Buchanan look good. It’s looking like he’s delving for new lows of incompetence.

Chip on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

If we’d let health care and health insurance develop and grow in a true free market we’d have even cheaper health care because the costs would be directly influenced by the actual consumers. Healthcare would be the same as any other product available on the market.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 2:31 PM

As I explained earlier, health care would not be “the same as any other product available on the market,” simply because it isn’t. Consumers do not create downward pressure on prices like they do in other industries. They create upward pressure, because their first concern is generally not price, but quality of care. That will usually drive up prices. People also will tend to correlate expense of care with quality of care, which drives the prices up higher.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Of course we need a price control mechanism. Otherwise insurance prices will reach the moon. The one I especially like goes by the technical name of “competition.” Try it; I think you’ll like it. It seems to me that all we are asking for is a national market for health-care insurance, just like every other product you’ll find in America. Can’t we try treating health insurance just like tooth-paste? Is that too difficult a concept for Obama to understand?

Fred 2 on February 22, 2010 at 3:18 PM

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

‘The market’ already handles an endless stream of products for which ‘quality’ is significant driver over price. Different companies come up with different products to cater to those for whom quality is more important – and other products to cater to those for whom price is more important.

Amazing. Different people want different things, and the market is an infinitely superior method of making that happen than a top-down one-size-fits-all forced government approach.

Midas on February 22, 2010 at 3:19 PM

Good grief, will someone please stand up and state the obvious: We cannot afford this! And what bullshyte convoluted interpretation of the Commerce Clause gives the federal government the right to subvert states and decide what an unreasonable premium increase is?
Please wake me from this nightmare.
NoLeftTurn on February 22, 2010 at 3:10 PM

That’s one I don’t think people have even scratched the surface on – aside from the Big government nightmare and the shredding of the Constitution.
The country is teetering on bankruptcy with our biggest global competitor and future enemy as our top creditor and the far-left national socialists want to heap even more debt into the mix, are they INSANE?

Chip on February 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM

only really got one word left for this clown….impeachment

unseen on February 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM

You left out “shinier”!

ya2daup on February 22, 2010 at 3:10 PM

I knew I forgot something.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM

are they INSANE?

Chip on February 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM

Insane? No.

Intentionally destroying everything? Yes.

Midas on February 22, 2010 at 3:21 PM

They create upward pressure, because their first concern is generally not price, but quality of care. That will usually drive up prices. People also will tend to correlate expense of care with quality of care, which drives the prices up higher.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Sorry, but that makes no sense. The driving forces in high health care costs are Medicare, Mediaid, illegal immigration and restricting government regulation.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 3:24 PM

This is funny. Last night, for some odd reason, I decided to grab Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell and read it a little before bed. I read about price controls. They do not work.

Try price controls on any product, bread, milk, gas, rent, and there will be a shortage, or it will disappear. Republicans should make a point of explaining this to Obama at the summit.

El_Terrible on February 22, 2010 at 3:24 PM

Wow who would have thought hope and change meant 1918 Russia? So progressive!

Keep voting democrat ignoramuses.

daesleeper on February 22, 2010 at 3:25 PM

As I explained earlier, health care would not be “the same as any other product available on the market,” simply because it isn’t. Consumers do not create downward pressure on prices like they do in other industries. They create upward pressure, because their first concern is generally not price, but quality of care. That will usually drive up prices. People also will tend to correlate expense of care with quality of care, which drives the prices up higher.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

If we had a real free market and consumers were actually paying for care or insurance (which in turn paid for care) then we would see consumers driving prices down. The scenario you’re describing is the result of government regulation and perversion of the free market.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 3:26 PM

As I explained earlier, health care would not be “the same as any other product available on the market,” simply because it isn’t. Consumers do not create downward pressure on prices like they do in other industries. They create upward pressure, because their first concern is generally not price, but quality of care. That will usually drive up prices. People also will tend to correlate expense of care with quality of care, which drives the prices up higher.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

Consumers in this case don’t actually pay for the product – so of course they don’t drive down the cost. This isn’t a free market. If consumers had to actually pay for the product then they would care a great deal about cost and the market would respond.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 3:29 PM

Someone has to pay for all the visits to the ER for things like ear aches and sniffles, and it’s not going to be the people with fake SS #s and fake IDs who get kid-glove treatment at our hospitals. Those people can’t even be hunted down to collect from. They are ghosts, ghosts who drain money from our infrastructure.

NTWR on February 22, 2010 at 2:32 PM

Sounds like the original concept of a Vampire.

Count to 10 on February 22, 2010 at 3:31 PM

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:14 PM

the reason for those anti market forces, however, is Government policy.

We consumers are NOT in charge of our own healthcare insurance. Its either bought by our Employer, run by the State (Medicare, Medicaid), or as in my case with Tricare Prime, economicly forced.

If we cut the TAX structure which connects your employer, to your health insurance… and gave everyone a Tax cut/rebate to buy their own, on an open market… prices would drop.

But with the system as it is, there is no competition, because very few individuals have any choice in what company, or Gov run program, they have.

Romeo13 on February 22, 2010 at 3:32 PM

Yours seems to be a standard Democratic talking point (voters are really want health care.

Nichevo on February 22, 2010 at 3:11 PM

We have healthcare, it’s the insurance that’s screwed up and the fact that noncitizens and nonpayers are putting severe strain on the system. However, the Democrat ‘solution’ has gone from shabby to pathetic to laughable in short order.

Dark-Star on February 22, 2010 at 3:33 PM

pulled off of Kos:
Dan Pfeiffer, on the call, stressed a couple of times that the “American people deserve and up or down vote” on healthcare reform, and said that the White House specifically designed this package to work through reconciliation. While they “hope Republicans will come together” behind their own proposal and make it available before Thursday, it wold seem the White House isn’t holding their breath on that happening

So if this is what the dems want. They have their bill ready to go and they want the repubs to put theirs out before Thurs., what is the point? There IS no point to the summit. Obama is NOT going to change anything but he will try his best to make stupid McConnel look stupid.

Both republican leaders are weak as stale piss. STOP trying to do anything with the democrats and Obama! BE THE PARTY OF NO, OWN IT, WEAR IT PROUD!

NO DO NOT GO!

patriotparty1 on February 22, 2010 at 3:41 PM

We have healthcare, it’s the insurance that’s screwed up and the fact that noncitizens and nonpayers are putting severe strain on the system. However, the Democrat ’solution’ has gone from shabby to pathetic to laughable in short order.
Dark-Star on February 22, 2010 at 3:33 PM

It should be axiomatic that when the government has screwed something up, the answer certainly isn’t more government.


“Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem.” Ronald Reagan

It’s really too bad that this isn’t something that IS laughable or pathetic – because this is something that truly appears to be designed to push us over a cliff.

That ISN’T Laughable.

Chip on February 22, 2010 at 3:43 PM

What people would do is not buy insurance at all, wait until a catastrophic illness occurred, and then walk in and buy the policy on the way to the hospital. So all the actuarial work indicated this type of behavior, and the insurance companies raised their rates to compensate.

If you want to drive the insurance companies out of business, this is a great way to do it.

Mandate TODAY that they take all comers – then be lax on enforcing the requirements for buying the insurance, on individuals.

Why pay $1,000 a month for health insurance when you can buy it when you get sick? Especially when there is no enforcement mechanism?

This passes then every private insurance company will be out of business within one year.

NoDonkey on February 22, 2010 at 3:44 PM

CBO scoring doesn’t matter … Obama has already had the “Come to Chicago” chat with them. They will score favorably… or else.

stenwin77 on February 22, 2010 at 3:45 PM

Let me get this straight, gwelf, darwin, midas:

You actually think that if someone needs, say, radiation therapy, they are going to look to see where they can get it the cheapest and not for the most skilled physician? How about medical tests? You think they’re going to look for the cheapest one? The cheapest nonelective surgery? Maybe have a buy one transfusion, get one free deal?

In other industries, you might be right. But to argue it with health care is really, really a stretch. Generally, people don’t work like that when it comes to their health. They want whatever health issue they have taken care of first, regardless of cost. You can (and do) argue that people wouldn’t think that way if they had to pay the actual costs … but that is precisely why we have health insurance.

Most major procedures cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. People simply can’t afford that. That’s why they have insurance. Plus, do not forget that many major drugs are subject to patents, which means theure is only one supplier who can charge whatever they wish. Asking people to pay for continuing or preventative care is ridiculous as well … because such care often saves money in the long run.

You sound like free market absolutists. But the totally free market is no less a utopia than anything conjured up by Marx. In practice, it doesn’t always work. How do we know? One word: telemarketing. Competition for utilities hasn’t worked out too well, either, or has everyone forgotten Enron. And smoking wouldn’t be banned in so many places now if the market had responded to the 75% of consumers that wanted no smoking in restaurants.

Thius is one instance where a totally free market hasn’t worked, can’t work and won’t work. You can argue that Obama’s plan is wrong and bad for health care in this country, and I’ll agree with you. But going too far in the opposite direction as you suggest would be just as bad.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:46 PM

Update: Another reason why Thursday’s O-Care summit is useless: The new bill that’s supposed to provide a starting point for negotiations will come without any pricetag attached.

Sweet! Isn’t that a perfect out for Repubs.? All they have to say is that they would like to delay the summit until the CBO can score Obama’s plan. That’s perfectly reasonable, and can hardly be blame worthy in the Press (yes I know they’ll try) It will set the agenda back a week, and Obama and the dems will tip their next move. A LOT of pressure will come down on the CBO to “score it correctly”, and the GOP can point to that as Obama trying to fudge the numbers. We have a window, let’s take it!

Weight of Glory on February 22, 2010 at 3:47 PM

The Republicans should NOT be the Party of No.

They should proudly be the party of: “NOT JUST NO, BUT HELL NO”..regarding this crap-sandwich called healthcare reform.

stenwin77 on February 22, 2010 at 3:48 PM

Moreover, preparing a cost estimate requires very detailed specifications of numerous provisions, and the materials that were released this morning do not provide sufficient detail on all of the provisions. Therefore, CBO cannot provide a cost estimate for the proposal without additional detail, and, even if such detail were provided, analyzing the proposal would be a time-consuming process that could not be completed this week.

It’s a vapor bill, just an outline of policy, but the actual text of the bill apparently has not been drafted.

Wethal on February 22, 2010 at 3:51 PM

The reason why the CBO can not assign a cost estimate to The Obama Plan is because it is a list of goals, a list of talking points. How can you make a cost estimate of ‘peace in our time’?

The Obama Plan is nothing more than a negotiating tactic, a public relations media event.

Skandia Recluse on February 22, 2010 at 3:52 PM

Therefore, CBO cannot provide a cost estimate for the proposal without additional detail, and, even if such detail were provided, analyzing the proposal would be a time-consuming process that could not be completed this week.

Naturally.
Most transparently corrupt administration ever.

rbj on February 22, 2010 at 3:53 PM

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:46 PM

One could make the same arguments about our legal system. I’m sure you’d love to have the government get its fingers into how much you make as a lawyer? If the same rules were applied to your profession that are applied to health costs and insurance companies you wouldn’t be upset?

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 3:53 PM

Good grief, will someone please stand up and state the obvious: We cannot afford this!

NoLeftTurn on February 22, 2010 at 3:10 PM

Rush touched on this today. Said first Obama forms a blue-ribbon panel to investigate what can be done to rein in the out-of-control spending, then two days later he tries to ram a heathcare plan down our throats that costs over a trillion dollars.

Sorry, that just doesn’t jive.

fogw on February 22, 2010 at 3:56 PM

Thius is one instance where a totally free market hasn’t worked, can’t work and won’t work. You can argue that Obama’s plan is wrong and bad for health care in this country, and I’ll agree with you. But going too far in the opposite direction as you suggest would be just as bad.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:46 PM

What are you talking about?
The problem is that we aren’t trying the free market. It would work just fine if we were. You seem to be missing the basic concept that you don’t have a right to get what you can’t pay for, even if you die.

Count to 10 on February 22, 2010 at 3:57 PM

You sound like free market absolutists. But the totally free market is no less a utopia than anything conjured up by Marx. In practice, it doesn’t always work. How do we know? One word: telemarketing. Competition for utilities hasn’t worked out too well, either, or has everyone forgotten Enron. And smoking wouldn’t be banned in so many places now if the market had responded to the 75% of consumers that wanted no smoking in restaurants.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:46 PM

We don’t have a true free market. The govenrment exerts it’s control at every step. I don’t why telemarketing would be a good example that the free marker doesn’t work … or utilities. As far as smoking goes, if people were really that concerned they would have taken their business somewhere else, they didn’t. Instead government, based on sketchy studies of second hand smoke came to the rescue. It’s none of the government’s business.

Government itself is responsible for the high cost of health care. What we need is less of it, not more.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:00 PM

Naturally.
Most transparently corrupt administration ever.
rbj on February 22, 2010 at 3:53 PM

LMAO!
Okay, that’s one for the ages for sure.

Chip on February 22, 2010 at 4:01 PM

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 3:46 PM

Maybe I can put this another way…

The insurance industry and the healthcare industry are 2 of the most heavily regulated industries. If regulation was going to ‘fix’ the problems we face it would have happened already. You appear to be arguing for more regulation.

These industries are so large that the government won’t be able to avoid screwing it up.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 4:02 PM

Who needs a “public option” when you can simply seize utter control over every aspect of the existing private health insurance industry? If the government decides who gets covered, what services are covered, and how much the policies are going to cost… what’s left that they don’t control?

Control of a thing is de facto ownership of it. The federal government will own our healthcare industry in all but name.

Murf76 on February 22, 2010 at 4:03 PM

Control of a thing is de facto ownership of it. The federal government will own our healthcare industry in all but name.

Murf76 on February 22, 2010 at 4:03 PM

Yep … and us.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:05 PM

The price of healthcare will skyrocket. All the taxes, fees and additional costs will be passed onto the consumer. It will be a reason for the government to say “See? that’s why we wanted a public option. The only way to ensure cheap insurance is for the government to control it”.
This crap has been planned from the getgo.

Filty dirty communists.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:07 PM

One could make the same arguments about our legal system. I’m sure you’d love to have the government get its fingers into how much you make as a lawyer? If the same rules were applied to your profession that are applied to health costs and insurance companies you wouldn’t be upset?

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 3:53 PM

They already do. The Rules of Professional Conduct, enforced by state courts, cover that. So do “reasonable attorney fees” in various court cases. The risk of fraud, as I’m sure you would agree, is high in the legal profession. The risk of swindling unsophisticated clients or abusing the fiduciary relationship is high. Too many bad apples, in the past and currently. We have to be watched. We know that. It comes with the territory.

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 4:09 PM

Count and Darwin,

“We don’t have a true free market.” “We haven’t tried a true free market.” Actually, we did. Long ago. And it didn’t work. Too many quacks. Too many sick people being cheated and dying in the process.

Plus, you really sound like those college professors who insist communism can work because “no one has ever really tried true communism.”

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 4:11 PM

I haven’t been able to read through all of these posts, so apologies up front if this has been suggested before. But…in light of the calls and letters to Congresspeople’s offices, in light of townhall meetings, tea party rallies, and elections in VA, NJ, and MA, it is clear that we the people–who pay the salaries of these a$$ clowns–do not want this piece of legislative crap. So, can we start recall petitions on anyone who votes for it, based on the fact that they are not listening to us?

BitterClinger on February 22, 2010 at 4:13 PM

Where in the Constitution is the federal government charged with maintaining people’s health?

nazo311 on February 22, 2010 at 4:14 PM

I think people want some oversight on this industry, definitely. What we’re frustrated by is that Congress isn’t really delivering a reasonable solution.

AnninCA on February 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM

I think people want a checking account with a million bucks in it, definitely. What we’re frustrated by is that Congress isn’t really delivering a reasonable solution.

Tell me why this is a bad idea. Not why it’ll never happen, not why it’s too expensive, not why it’ll bankrupt the country.

No, just tell me why it’s a bad idea. If you can’t tell me why its a bad idea, then it must be a good thing, right?

BobMbx on February 22, 2010 at 4:15 PM

This crap has been planned from the getgo.

Fily dirty communists.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:07 PM

Correct. Obama had a team conducting “seminars” many months ago in which they admitted the covert goal to rig the system to make government intervention a fait accompli. It’s on youtube somewhere.

rrpjr on February 22, 2010 at 4:19 PM

So, can we start recall petitions on anyone who votes for it, based on the fact that they are not listening to us?

BitterClinger on February 22, 2010 at 4:13 PM

Depends on the state I believe.

Nice name btw.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:23 PM

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 4:09 PM

Well apparently lawyer fees aren’t reasonable enough because I can’t get a lawyer without regard to cost.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 4:24 PM

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:23 PM

Virginia?

PS. Glad you like my monijer.

BitterClinger on February 22, 2010 at 4:27 PM

Actually, we did. Long ago. And it didn’t work. Too many quacks. Too many sick people being cheated and dying in the process.

Plus, you really sound like those college professors who insist communism can work because “no one has ever really tried true communism.”

Pro Cynic on February 22, 2010 at 4:11 PM

What? You fix the “quacks” by requiring licensing or certification, and you address “cheating” by passing laws that give consumers the power to challenge and laws that punish. You don’t take over because of that.

Too many people dying? Where the hell do you get your info? Don’t tell me, I can guess.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:27 PM

Oops. monijer. = moniker

BitterClinger on February 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM

Where in the Constitution is the federal government charged with maintaining people’s health?
nazo311 on February 22, 2010 at 4:14 PM

The response from the the Far-left National Socialist moonbat wing of the Democrat party would say:

Interstate Commerce Clause?

Section 8 – Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

It’s total BS, but that’s what they would say, isn’t that correct Far-left National Socialists?

Chip on February 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM

Virginia?

PS. Glad you like my monijer.

BitterClinger on February 22, 2010 at 4:27 PM

I’m in VA as well and I don’t know. Never had to look it up.

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM

People also will tend to correlate expense of care with quality of care, which drives the prices up higher.

This has been proven time and again. My brother is a doc who’s consistently frustrated by patients who come into his office demanding the latest drug featured in a TV commercial. It doesn’t matter that an available generic will most likely have the desired impact. It doesn’t matter that the generic has been on the market for 15 years, with well known side effects while the newer drug might pose risks not yet understood.

Moreover, caregivers are often paid on the basis of conducting more tests, making more referrals, and generally providing more care. The incentives within the healthcare community do nothing to control costs, despite the fact that recent studies have demonstrated the most expensive course of treatment is often not the most effective. If you compare US health care to that of modern countries like France, where doctors are essentially on salary and never benefit from conducting another test or providing unnecessary care, the quality remains high and costs are far, far lower.

Tort reform is important, but re-aligning incentives is absolutely essential over the long term to keep American companies competitive. When per capita health care costs in this country are nearly double that of any other industrialized nation (most of which provide universal coverage), something is clearly very wrong. Minor tweaks to the system won’t ultimately save us.

I’m not suggesting a transition toward government-run health care, but I am saying that the quality of healthcare, the expertise of doctors, standards of hospitals, and excellence of medical research have nothing to do with the bloated insurance industry. This country needs a solution similar to what you see offered by Kaiser Permanente in California. The costs of our system today, esp. given the aging population, is an obsoletely expensive monster than we can’t afford forever. If we don’t wake up and start considering serious change, some very painful emergency measures are going to be necessary down the road.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:29 PM

Point to any study that says most people never use their health insurance. If that were true then there would be no “crisis” of health care in the country that Obama is claiming. You are truly a wonder at times.

Most U.S. citizens, do not expect hospitals to give ILLEGAL CRIMINALS FREE OBSTETRICS TO BECOME CITIZENS.

Jeff2161 on February 22, 2010 at 4:34 PM

I’m not suggesting a transition toward government-run health care, but I am saying that the quality of healthcare, the expertise of doctors, standards of hospitals, and excellence of medical research have nothing to do with the bloated insurance industry.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:29 PM

Bloated? How is the insurance industry bloated?

darwin on February 22, 2010 at 4:34 PM

Give ‘em a Mexican abortion by throwing them back across the border. No Birth Certificate, No habla F.U.

Jeff2161 on February 22, 2010 at 4:35 PM

HEy, 30 Million illegals like our system just fine.

Jeff2161 on February 22, 2010 at 4:36 PM

New ObamaCare bill: Are you ready for price controls on insurance premiums?

Nixon 2.0 Baby!

Update: CBO can’t score bill this week

That’s a feature… not a bug.

Chaz706 on February 22, 2010 at 4:38 PM

This has been proven time and again. My brother is a doc who’s consistently frustrated by patients who come into his office demanding the latest drug featured in a TV commercial. It doesn’t matter that an available generic will most likely have the desired impact. It doesn’t matter that the generic has been on the market for 15 years, with well known side effects while the newer drug might pose risks not yet understood.

Moreover, caregivers are often paid on the basis of conducting more tests, making more referrals, and generally providing more care. The incentives within the healthcare community do nothing to control costs, despite the fact that recent studies have demonstrated the most expensive course of treatment is often not the most effective. If you compare US health care to that of modern countries like France, where doctors are essentially on salary and never benefit from conducting another test or providing unnecessary care, the quality remains high and costs are far, far lower.

Tort reform is important, but re-aligning incentives is absolutely essential over the long term to keep American companies competitive. When per capita health care costs in this country are nearly double that of any other industrialized nation (most of which provide universal coverage), something is clearly very wrong. Minor tweaks to the system won’t ultimately save us.

I’m not suggesting a transition toward government-run health care, but I am saying that the quality of healthcare, the expertise of doctors, standards of hospitals, and excellence of medical research have nothing to do with the bloated insurance industry. This country needs a solution similar to what you see offered by Kaiser Permanente in California. The costs of our system today, esp. given the aging population, is an obsoletely expensive monster than we can’t afford forever. If we don’t wake up and start considering serious change, some very painful emergency measures are going to be necessary down the road.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:29 PM

More of these tonsil-digging/foot-rustling doctors I see?

Doctors conduct more tests than needful and pursue expensive treatment courses because they fear they will be sued if they don’t.

It’s astounding that the problem is never government – it’s always evil insurance companies or greedy doctors. If these really were the reasons that our health care industry needs fixing then government is definitely not up to the task.

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 4:39 PM

John Boehner is comparing the HC summit to a Dem “infomercial”

sonnyspats1 on February 22, 2010 at 4:45 PM

It’s astounding that the problem is never government – it’s always evil insurance companies or greedy doctors

I never blamed doctors, I blamed incentives. If you understand or believe in the power of free markets, then you realize that incentive affect how the market operates.

If you think that insurance companies are doing a fantastic job with lean operations and efficient decision-making, then you either work for an insurance company yourself or are naive and have never experienced the hell of an HMO.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:46 PM

If you think that insurance companies are doing a fantastic job with lean operations and efficient decision-making, then you either work for an insurance company yourself or are naive and have never experienced the hell of an HMO.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:46 PM

+1. My father could keep you glued to your chair, slackjawed, for hours on end with the stories he could tell. Even worse – he’s supposed to be charged with bringing sanity to his company’s system…and what he gets is basically a giant live-action roleplay of Dilbert.

Dark-Star on February 22, 2010 at 4:50 PM

I’m sure someone already mentioned this but the “evil” insurance industry is one of the most heavily regulated of all industries.Won’t help any ones bottom line if it is further regulated, or should I say strangulated.

sandee on February 22, 2010 at 4:51 PM

I think one thing that most of America can agree on is that one of the key factors contributing to the Great Recession was risky behavior by Wall Street and participants in the mortgage market. Given that, why is now a good idea to force health insurance companies to take on more risk without allowing them to charge a premium for that increase in risk?

And given that health insurance companies already have one of the lowest historical profit margins among companies in the S&P, the leftist refrain that they “make enough money already” is an insufficient response.

Selkirk on February 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM

I never blamed doctors, I blamed incentives. If you understand or believe in the power of free markets, then you realize that incentive affect how the market operates.

If you think that insurance companies are doing a fantastic job with lean operations and efficient decision-making, then you either work for an insurance company yourself or are naive and have never experienced the hell of an HMO.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:46 PM

You’re splitting hairs. You said doctors perform unnecessary tests and procedures because they have an ‘incentive’ to make as much money as they can or their patients demand it.

To the first point about incentives: the need to practice defensive medicine wasn’t anywhere to be found in your comments which means the incentive is basically chalked up to greed instead of what it really is – an attempt to be avoid being sued.

To the second point: if customers where paying the costs of their care then they would stop demanding for things that don’t really make sense.

As to insurance companies: if there is any bloat in them it’s because government regulation demands this of them. Are you positing that government would run an ‘alternative’ more efficiently and with less fraud? The profit margin of an insurance company is orders of magnitude smaller than the waste that would (and is) lost through government fruad (fraud perpetrated on the government).

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 4:57 PM

My father could keep you glued to your chair, slackjawed, for hours on end with the stories he could tell. Even worse – he’s supposed to be charged with bringing sanity to his company’s system…and what he gets is basically a giant live-action roleplay of Dilbert

A common story if you know people who work in the health insurance industry, which basically define the concept of bureaucratic nightmare.

health insurance companies already have one of the lowest historical profit margins among companies in the S&P, the leftist refrain that they “make enough money already”

US auto companies had razor thin profit margins, but that doesn’t mean they deserve special treatment. Insurance companies make GM looks like a model of good management and efficiency.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:59 PM

the need to practice defensive medicine wasn’t anywhere to be found in your comments

Not true, ‘tort reform’ in my comment means addressing defensive medicine. I should have used a more common term.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 5:00 PM

US auto companies had razor thin profit margins, but that doesn’t mean they deserve special treatment. Insurance companies make GM looks like a model of good management and efficiency.

bayam on February 22, 2010 at 4:59 PM

Insurance companies are also more heavily regulated. You really don’t see a correlation between an industry being heavily regulated by the government and companies in that industry having unwieldy bureaucracies?

gwelf on February 22, 2010 at 5:02 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5