RI school superintendent fires entire staff at failing school
posted at 11:36 am on February 16, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
The situation already looked explosive. A Rhode Island high school had a 50% failure rate in a depressed town with high unemployment and a median wage of $22,000 per family. The union representing the teachers, who averaged over $70,000 per year in income, refused the superintendent’s plans to improve the school by extending the work day by 25 minutes and requiring teachers to provide tutoring on a rotating basis. The superintendent summoned her inner Reagan and fired them all, from the administrators to the last instructor (via Instapundit):
Her plan calls for teachers at a local high school to work 25 minutes longer per day, each lunch with students once in a while, and help with tutoring. The teachers’ union has refused to accept these apparently onerous demands.
The teachers at the high school make $70,000-$78,000, as compared to a median income in the town of $22,000. This exemplifies a nationwide trend in which public sector workers make far more than their private-sector counterparts (with better benefits).
The school superintendent has responded to the union’s stubbornness by firing every teacher and administrator at the school.
Let’s agree on a few things first. The 50% failure rate is certainly abysmal, but considering the poverty in the town, perhaps not completely related to academics. That kind of poverty creates pressure on employment-age teens to find work, although in this economy, the work would be hard to find. There may also be families escaping from the area to find work elsewhere; that may or may not have an impact on graduation rates. As for the salaries of the teachers, one has to view that in terms of competitive labor, as getting good teachers will necessarily cost more than getting cheap teachers, and probably would have an impact on those graduation rates, with all other things being equal.
However, it’s hard not to draw the conclusion that the teachers and administration at this school are a big part of the problem. Asking teachers making three times the average of the town’s median income to contribute an extra 25 minutes a day to rescue students in obvious failure does not seem like an outrageous request. The two-week summer training period may have infringed on their vacation plans, but their school faced an existential crisis, and their students were being doomed to a lifetime of competitive handicaps. One may have thought that teachers and administrators would have a sense of mission, rather than a sense of entitlement, especially considering the failure to which they had all contributed at least in part.
This is a good argument for getting unions out of the public-employee business altogether. Not only does the marriage of unions and the public sector create too much of an impulse to expand bureaucracies, it twists the priorities away from public service and towards entitlement thinking. To their credit, most educators, law enforcement, and emergency response personnel successfully resist that impulse, but this jaw-dropping standoff in Rhode Island shows that it does exist.
Update: Rhode Island is abbreviated RI, not RH, of course. I’ve corrected the title.
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1) I live north of the D/FW area near the Oklahoma border. Most of the towns around me (small towns of about 20-25k people) pay first year teachers $35-40k per year. Top pay is $60-70k. Average is probably $42-45k.
2) 9 months, yes, but with several holidays that many people do not get. I know many people with jobs who work over 50 hours per week and then still have to deal with work issues at night and on the weekend. My father used to work for the railroad – he drove 1.5 hours one way, worked 12 hours, and then drove home. He coached Little League, ran the concession stand at the ballpark, and was always at all my school functions. Lots of people work hard.
3) Nurses (my wife is one) and engineers (if licensed as a professional engineer) and other professions are required to continue their education. Also, I am curious where you got the information that “most states require all teachers to get a Masters degree”. I know Texas doesn’t, although many schools pay extra if you have it.
4) Many people switch careers due to stress. Some people can handle certain jobs and some can’t. My wife knows many people who are no longer nurses for that reason.
My bottom line is that teachers in some (many?) areas are not as bad off as you hear in news reports. I have actually considered teaching as a possible career change because I am not happy with my job and feel I’m not making any difference. I would be taking a pay cut, but I would not be working nearly as much and would have more time to spend with my kids.
TexasAg03 on February 16, 2010 at 3:43 PM
The teachers didn’t have to teach to as low a lowest common denominator in those classes. The other classes? Sorry if you’re bored, but we can’t go so fast that the dumb/uninterested kids can’t keep up enough to scrape by. Sorry if your education suffers, but we’ve got to get these morons into underperforming universities and continue watering down the system even more…
rogerb on February 16, 2010 at 3:49 PM
Actually NO.
70-78,000 per year is what the large majority of teachers at this school make. It is NOT an average.
Think most teachers teach for 30 years or more. Thus most would have been there more than 10 years at which point they top out on pay. 70-78 is because a masters gets you more pay.
Steveangell on February 16, 2010 at 3:49 PM
Now if the heads of GM had the same #@%%$ to do the same thing with those pesky UAW workers…
newton on February 16, 2010 at 3:50 PM
Dear Superintendent:
I am pursuing my MA in English and teaching certification; currently I work for $9.50 an hour because it was the only job I could find. I will gladly move to RI, teach in your schools, and happily work the extra time and training you requested. I will even gladly take a starting salary of $35,000 per year.
Education aside, I do subscribe to the sensible notion that a job, even with changes, is still better than being unemployed.
Signed,
englishqueen01
englishqueen01 on February 16, 2010 at 3:55 PM
Right. Most teachers quit after a a couple of years? I think NOT.
Public jobs are nothing like private. In a private job environment you would be correct. But this is the land of tenure where no teacher is ever fired (short of criminal behavior). Average is 70K because most teachers are toped out. Very few quit after three years. So only 25% or so have less than 10 years at most schools and thus make less than 70K.
Steveangell on February 16, 2010 at 3:56 PM
Nevermind, teachers. What about registered nurses. Crappy pay, crappy hours, crappy benefits and crappy working conditions. Teachers have a nerve to complain.
bloggless on February 16, 2010 at 3:56 PM
Yeah, that was my experience in junior high, as we didn’t have as many advanced classes. I was beyond bored and was actually a problem for some teachers because instead of doing my own homework, I’d help everyone else with theirs.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 3:59 PM
It depends on the schools. Areas up here are growing, and those numbers could be from new schools.
Either way, I’d be glad if I could look forward to a $45k salary. That’s not including benefits, which I’d have to pay for myself currently.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 4:03 PM
RI teachers are, depending on the town or city, among the highest paid in the country. I believe the highest paid are, or used to be, in CT. The CF teachers are probably not allowed to make the decision themselves as to whether they will(officially) work 25 minutes longer–the Union is making it for them. Many probably work that much extra or more each day. Not all, but most teachers I have met(and they are many, many)care deeply about the success of their students and will do whatever they can to help. Has it occurred to those of you maligning teachers that the success of your student means the teacher/s has been successful too? They, the students in your care, are your job satisfaction, the criteria against which you measure your own success. Sometimes it works the other way and you look back at someone or something and see that you should have done more or better. On the whole though, most teachers care and I’d bet that most of the teachers at CF high feel just as I’ve described. This is the Union vs. the City of CF and the State of RI. These teachers will not be allowed to set a prededent that might be applied across the State, no matter what their personal opinion.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:03 PM
$70K a year to work 6 hours a day for 9 months works out to around $75 an hour.
That’s almost UAW kind of rates.
And not surprising the products both of these unioized workers put out – American cars and high school dropouts – have something very similar in common. FAILURE
angryed on February 16, 2010 at 4:11 PM
Sure, and that’s why the failures of such students are also the teacher’s failures. That’s why it’s a problem that they’re getting paid so much with such a low success rate.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 4:17 PM
Just check the facts lady, it is niether unfair or biased.
Wade on February 16, 2010 at 4:19 PM
To be fair teachers in most school districts have to prove themselves for the first two or three years and a Teaching Degree is harder than many (not most) other degrees. The Science and Math Teachers have harder programs and most school districts can not find enough (which argues their pay is low).
Pay is not the problem Tenure, Unions and most importantly educators are. I know an educator I was talking to her and she felt it most appropriate that bad teachers be paid and moved into management or even do nothing jobs. She was horrified that I felt teachers that couldn’t teach should be fired. She sat on School Boards or ran the Board of Education at different cities most of her life.
My daughters are in school for their teaching degrees. Both say flat out that a big part of the problem is that bad teachers can not be fired. They strongly resist any method of rating teachers. This is what they are taught. Teachers can not be rated fairly. Well I have news for you that is the case with any job. But the vast number of bad employees in America are still fired. So should teachers. If they were fired unfairly try again or try another profession. That is what the private taxpayers have to do.
Steveangell on February 16, 2010 at 4:19 PM
Except that it’s closer to ten hours a day, because teachers take work home and often grade papers and plan lessons after dinner. They have more homework than their students. Yes, they get federal holidays, but they also have mandated training days, and they start school a couple weeks before the kids do, and finish up a couple weeks afterward. So in those ten months, they put in the same 2,000 hours that 12-month 40-hour workers do. So your “$75 an hour” works out to $35, for a professional with ten years’ experience and a Master’s degree. The administrators work year-round, and many of them are expected to earn a Ph.D. or Ed.D.
I’d like to see a world where we valued teachers more than rock stars or athletes. They have to prepare our children for a future than none of us can imagine.
I’ve taught in the public schools. It’s not a job, it’s a calling. Are there lousy teachers? Sure. But there are lousy cops, lousy firefighters, and lousy soldiers, too.
That said, in this particular case, the union seems to have had a sense of entitlement.
And for all the disrespect of teachers here, everyone seems capable of reading and writing, and some even are able to do some math and have some grasp of history. Were you all homeschooled, or do you have TEACHERS to thank?
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 4:23 PM
As a certified teacher in NJ, I can only get a job in PreK-3rd grade because my certification is “Standard”, after going through the NJ Provisional Teachers Alternate Route Program, for which I had to pay $5,000.00 to the state. My undergraduate degree is in English, so one would think getting a job as an English teacher would be possible. The available jobs in PreK-3rd grade are almost non-existent and when an opening does come up, they stop looking at resumes after the first 100. I could, and I have, worked in private schools, but either the starting salary is $22k or when I worked in a private high school in a drug rehab facility, they made sure to only give me 37.5 hours so I got no health insurance, making $15/hour, so I had to leave after 18 months because my COBRA ran out, but I told the school that before they hired me. Since I am not working as a teacher, I cannot get into any graduate school for my Masters in Education, so that means with NCLB, I am NOT highly qualified, and will not be hired outside of my certification, which again, there are no jobs. My friend is the Principal where I sub sometimes (their sub list has increased dramatically in the last year so I have not been called to sub in a long time) and he got 300 resumes for one position.
I gave up completely on my dream of teaching so I am getting my MS in Human Services/Executive Leadership, which supposedly qualifies me for a director position at a non-profit. I have been in the workforce for 20+ years, am willing to take a job making what I made 20 years ago and still nothing. I have been out of work 15 months and am running out of things to sell on E-Bay just to pay the mortgage, and the bare necessities of living expenses. I never in all my life could have imagined things would be so bad. I’d move out of state, but can’t because we are both legally bound as caregivers to close relatives, his special needs sister and my Alzheimer’s uncle.
Whoever said most states require Masters degrees is correct for anyone who wants to teach over 1st grade level (even though the Standard Certification allows you to teach up to 3rd grade, anyone with a Masters will get hired before a Bachelors), in that you need higher than a Standard certification, which is all you get with a Bachelors in Education.
margategop517 on February 16, 2010 at 4:24 PM
I feel a tingle running up my leg.
Virginia Shanahan on February 16, 2010 at 4:26 PM
And remember $70K is the salary. Throw in cadillac (to be untaxed under ObamaCare) health plans, a guaranteed, 3 months vacation a year, more sick days than anyone would know what to do with. And of course the comfort in knowing that unless you kill somebody, you will never, ever be fired.
angryed on February 16, 2010 at 4:27 PM
Funny, I don’t recall a 6 hour day. Started at 7:30(for early bus and study hall duty)and left about 4(after school clubs, extra help, detention and late bus duties). Then there were the once a week faculty meetings that ran until 5 or 5:30. Of course one shouldn’t forget the parent meetings(sometimes 0 a week, but could be as many as 5) that commonly started about 7 and ran to about 8 or 8:30 subject to the parent’s convenience and not the teachers. Then there are all the student e-mail questions and ‘please help’ messages one finds on the computer when they get home. I guess I just dreamed all that?
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:27 PM
And almost forgot…teachers no not pay Social Security taxes. Meaning that $70K is the equivalent of $74,340 in the private sector for someone who has to pay 6.2% into SS every year.
And with all that teachers still complain. Unreal.
angryed on February 16, 2010 at 4:28 PM
angryed, please cite sources for your claims about the health care benefits and sick leave policy of this district.
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 4:29 PM
I don’t have to check the ‘facts’. I know many of these very high performing folks personally.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:30 PM
I agree it would be bold. I’m not one that thinks the teachers have it easy, nor would homeschooling be easy, but something has to change with education.
GrannySunni on February 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Public employees here in Ohio have to pay 10% into the state’s pension fund. And for every pension dollar we get in retirement, our SS benefits are reduced by a dollar. We’re penalized for having worked in the private sector.
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
]
Try working 12 hour night shifts on holidays taking care of critically ill or combative patients who are on tube feedings, vents, a multitude of medications and getting two stinking weeks of vacation that they decide when you can take. Teachers have it easy compared to nurses. Not even close. Bus duty!!!! Try IV duty!!!!! And as far as taking work home, most nurses wake up in the middle of the night in a panic that they forgot to do something. The liability is unreal.
bloggless on February 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM
>>I think the Right should find some way to home school on a massive level. I know I make it sound easy and it wouldn’t be but can you imagine the message it would send
I’d LOVE to homeschool my kids. But I have to earn a living.
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 4:33 PM
I’d prefer a world where we valued soldiers more than rock stars or athletes.
Teachers? Why? Some are great and deserve the respect, but plenty aren’t and don’t. They’re not giving anything up by taking the job. It’s a good pay straight out of college, and if they don’t want to stay, they don’t have to.
No offense, but it sounds like you have a Messiah complex.
I learned to read before I went to school actually.
But if you’re into thanking people for doing their jobs, you should also note that we all have computers and Internet. Shouldn’t we be thanking Del or Bill Gates as well?
Or why not thank Ed, Allah and Michelle for the ability to argue here on their dime?
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 4:38 PM
Goose.Gander.
You’re fired!
BobMbx on February 16, 2010 at 4:38 PM
Have you tried the parochial or small private schools? These do not pay what the public schools do but are often a gate way into the public school system if you perform well and get good recommendations. Parochial schools are always looking for good teachers, particularly at the junior high level. In this job market that may temporarily not be true, but will most certainly be true again in the future should you still be looking.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:39 PM
What? If they don’t pay, do they still collect any?
Considering mine will be gone by the time I reach retirement age, I’d just be happy to know I no longer have to pay into it.
Facts and anecdotes are not the same.
So your pension is 90% funded? You have no idea how good you have it.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 4:43 PM
I had a 6th grade teacher once who nicknamed a kid “creature _________(last name)”. That kid was called that for the rest of his student days. That teacher was supposedly one of the best teachers. He used to put another kid in the bathroom (which was located in the classroom, shut the door and put a sign on the door “The Golub(his name) Is In”. Nice huh?
bloggless on February 16, 2010 at 4:47 PM
Yes, student failures are heart breaking to most teachers. When I hear of a student that has not done well, has taken a wrong path I do wonder what, if anything, I might have done to alter this. So, if you are using this to make me feel badly about things I might have done better, do not take too much credit for having discovered some new premise as I(and most teachers)am my own worst critic on this front you may be sure.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:47 PM
We all have our stories that we wave around like banners of self sacrificing honor.
We recently completed a 25 million dollar addition to the plant I manage. To save money, I was selected as the project’s resident engineer – in addition to being the full time plant manager – a 100% increase in work load with an attendent 0% increase in pay. A little over five years later, I have a bullet proof resume – RE experience and managing a state of the art plant.
Those teachers could have bucked up and pulled that school out of the proverbial tar pit and gone on to possibly acquire regional, if not national, acclaim and who knows where the altruism would have led.
There appears to be a narcissism/blinding self centrism requirement for union participation that I am uncomfortable with.
oldfiveanddimer on February 16, 2010 at 4:48 PM
Margate, you should seriously consider leaving New Jersey. I know it sounds intimidating and moving your family members will take a lot of planning and effort, but if the four of you relocated you would find making a living a lot easier and your dream of teaching would be achievable. I live in Kansas City, Missouri, where even new BA’s can teach and the districts pay you to get your Master’s. You may consider it flyover country, but we have all metropolitan services with a lower cost of living. I’ve lived back East and I know a lot of folks I met there would have been better off in the Midwest. Just a suggestion.
alwaysfiredup on February 16, 2010 at 4:50 PM
I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad. I’m just making a point.
If there’s a 50% failure rate, that’s a problem for the teachers. And if you want credit for their success, you must also take blame for their failures.
But telling me that you feel bad when a job might have been done poorly is irrelevant to me as a tax payer, just as it’s irrelevant to share holders in a company facing bankruptcy. The only thing that matters is that the job is done better next time.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 4:51 PM
Yes, the GPO or Government Pension Offset(double dipping). It was quietly passed by Congress in 1980 as a means to help the even then failing SS system. The Gov. kept it quite hush, hush and it came as a rude awakening to firemen, police, teachers etc who had earned SS credits in the private sector during college, high school, summers etc. No SS for these, your function is to subsidize someone else.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:55 PM
I just got home and have not had time to read all of the comments but I do have to say that I wish that what you wrote was true for me. I have been teaching for almost 20 years and have a BBA in general management and a MS from the University of Georgia. Last year I earned just over $53,000 and had to pay into social security. I am not complaining about my pay or status in society. I do know that I am a good teacher and am having an impact on the students that I teach. Every year one of my top goals is to deprogram my ninth grade students from the global warming BS that they are indoctrinated in from the middle school. Additionally I try to instill in my students the belief that this is the greatest country on the planet because if you are willing to learn and work hard you can be a success. I know there are horrible teachers in our nation’s school system but there are also teachers who bust their rear ends and try to educate and provide good role models for our students. For everyone who is making broad, sweeping statements about how sorry teachers please remember that not every apple in the barrel is bad and one of the ways to improve education is to get better people into teaching.
dawgyear on February 16, 2010 at 4:58 PM
No, Esthier, I pay 10% of my salary into a pension fund. Off the top, via payroll deduction. I never see the money. When (or if) I retire, my payout is based on my years of service. It’s an incentive to stay on the job. But I’m also penalized by current state law, because my SS benefits will be reduced by the amount of my pension benefits.
And yes, I’m very aware of how good I have it. I’ve done stints in retail, food service, and manual labor, and my wife works in health care. I know that I’ve worked harder for less money. I’m grateful every day, and I work hard to give the taxpayers their money’s worth.
And so so the vast, vast majority of the teachers I know and work with. are there some duds? Sure. But when folks start painting with a broad brush, my hackles go up.
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 4:58 PM
I worked at a private school that doubled as an after school / day care center.
My work hours were from 8 AM to 4:30 PM. Because the school couldn’t afford seperate janitors and assitants, all of us teachers took turns as play yard supervisors, cafeteria workers, lunch providers and janitors. I had to vaccum my own classroom and pickup after student’s trash numerous times.
I (and my co teacher) had teach as many as 40 kids in a single classroom, a few of them with behavioral issues who were rejected by public schools. There wasn’t any substitute teachers coming up my aid if the other teacher got sick – either I taught alone or the principal would help me. All of this, and my max pay at that place was under 12 bucks per hour.
I enjoyed teaching there overall. But if a public school offered me a job paying me 15% less salary, I would have left that school after the first year. Public school teachers should have VERY little to complain about.
Mad Kimchi on February 16, 2010 at 5:01 PM
must use preview more often!
dawgyear on February 16, 2010 at 5:03 PM
It’s not income that correlates to success, it’s CULTURE!
Culture leads to no regard for education, etc., hence income is low.
BierManVA on February 16, 2010 at 5:04 PM
.
There again, I am not looking for credit for the successes of students I may have had. Any credit the earned,they earned themselves. However, when I meet some of my past students, and I do frequently as I live in the same area, I am so delighted when they have made a good life for themselves. I do not take credit, but I do get a good feeling that I have, in some small way, contributed something to their lives along the way…helped them up the ladder however small a part I’ve played. If you see that as
a false vanity, then so be it.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 5:05 PM
Actually, the most recent studies show that people skills are the best predictor of income, irrespective of income. Not surprising, since top-earning sales people and managers have to have great people skills.
(Some of the people on this board must be dead broke. ;-^)
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM
You do understand that on these posts people use “shorthand” to make their comments…we all know dedicated teachers, you are apparently one of them.
You also know you are the exception, and that the unions have not helped educate our children, quite the contrary.
Thanks for your great service, my kids had a few teachers like you and it made up for all the others. Most of them rather average or below…teachers like you, are a gem and well respected.
But the bad teachers, too many, overpaid, and under worked…you are overworked, and underpaid…such is the union.
right2bright on February 16, 2010 at 5:09 PM
right2bright on February 16, 2010 at 5:09 PM
Thanks for the comment! Again, I just wanted to remind everyone that there are good, conservative, teachers out there. FWIW, I have never belonged to a teachers union (thankfully Georgia is a right to work state) because I just could not see giving money to an organization who would use it to promote issues that I totally disagreed with.
dawgyear on February 16, 2010 at 5:23 PM
And I do the same with my retirement plan and my SS even though I do not believe I’ll ever see a dime of the latter.
And mine are reduced because the funds were mismanaged. I’ve already been sent letters telling me I might get $.70 to the dollar.
I haven’t been painting all teachers as bad. I’ve said that my personal experience has been a good one and that I don’t have any really horrible stories about teachers.
I’ve only been saying that they make a decent living and yet get a lot of press about how bad they have it.
I don’t. I happen to agree that if you are a good teacher, you likely did contribute to a person’s success.
You just made it a point to bring up in saying that it’s something to consider when critiquing teachers. I’m merely saying that if we are to consider student success, we need also consider student failure.
That’s it. I have no ulterior motive.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 5:26 PM
I’m a teacher and consider myself a professional. Professional employees give time after school, on lunches, and in the summers/weekends without expecting extra compensation. Most of my colleagues feel the same way. Unfortunately, the union usually protects those who do NOT feel that way.
I’m a fine teacher with a solid reputation. I’ve been at my job for many years and enjoy a real passion for it. I understand the disdain for the NEA, but really wish people didn’t lump all teachers in with a union they have NO CHOICE but to join.
Grace_is_sufficient on February 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM
Maybe there’s another way to look at the Central Falls teachers? Glass half empty, glass half full!! If you knew Central Falls, you might be surprised that these teachers have even a 50% success rate. Not excusing or blaming them as I do not have any other sides than those presented above. As for the Union allowing an RI school district to get away with an arbitrary(as they see it)unpaid extra 25 minutes—well, in NEA circles, that means war. It remains to be seen if this war will be fought in the open or behind closed doors. Bet on the latter I suggest.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 5:28 PM
I think you sound like a great teacher, and I’m glad that we have someone like you out there. If we had more, this story might never have been written.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 5:29 PM
I think it is also important to remember that these fools elected Patrick Kennedy for many years, so the gene pool may be a little shallow. Maybe it isn’t the teachers’ fault.
bloggless on February 16, 2010 at 5:31 PM
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 4:39 PM
Jeanie, thank you very much for your kind suggestion. They closed many of the Catholic Schools here (they just merged the three surrounding towns Catholic schools where I live into one), and for two large counties, we now have one Catholic high school. At best if I did get a job in a Catholic or private school, the starting salary is $22k, and to cover just the basics, I need to make at least $32k. We have a very small 800 square foot home, and live very modestly. Where I live has 17.4% (massive layoffs at Atlantic City casinos) of our county unemployed, but then add people like me who have exhausted unemployment, the number jumps to 25.4%. I have applied to every teaching job, public and private regardless, but no response. I am applying for everything as nothing is beneath me these days. I just need to make $32k, which with 20+ years and almost a Masters, don’t think that is too much to ask.
alwaysfiredup on February 16, 2010 at 4:50 PM
Thank you to you too alwaysfiredup. I would move out of NJ in a second, after my uncle passes because he raised me since I was a little girl, can’t leave him now. Could not live with myself if I left him alone after all he has done for me. He doesn’t deserve to die alone. But if I do leave the state, it will be me and me alone as the only way to do that is divorce. My husband will not leave his family, he doesn’t care if we starve to death, he won’t leave. I have begged, begged and begged. His family is so close it actually sometimes makes me resent them for holding us here. I love my family dearly too, but they would understand if I left.
Thank you both again for your kind suggestions.
margategop517 on February 16, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Took a while to go back and read the earlier posts. Yes, nurses do have tough jobs. My post was to correct the 6 hour a day notion.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 5:33 PM
@skydaddy
“And so so the vast, vast majority of the teachers I know and work with.”
This is probably true. But I tend to think that while most teachers are competent and hard working, they’re not necesarily great.
I tutored students during summer breaks, and their classroom stories were just incredible. I just tutored a high school kid whose English teacher instructed the class to include the title of the story and the author’s name in the topic sentece of EVERY paragraph in the essay. Huh? Is this a standard practice for english classes now? And since the teacher didn’t take the time to cover the reading material, I had to invest a precious hour to go explain the gist to the student.
OF course my experience is anecdotal and limited to LA. But I have a hard time agreeing with teachers who try to defend 60k a year salary (depends on the district), considering the overall result. Grading homeworks and attending parent teacher conferences aren’t especially hard. I’ve done it.
Mad Kimchi on February 16, 2010 at 5:33 PM
I understand your point, but why can’t all of you get together and do what the unions did when they were first created? So much is being done in your name. It would be brilliant if those of you who have a problem with that would stop it using the same tactics unions did.
Maybe so, but if they take their jobs seriously, they shouldn’t be against measures that could change that number for the better. If the extra 25 minutes (and I’m not sure it was actually unpaid – that would be illegal) wasn’t a solution they liked, then they should have come up with their own.
Either way, I suppose we’re about to see if those teachers were a part of the problem.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 5:35 PM
Now for a little change of pace:
Most school systems differ. Some are good, some are bad. Some have strong unions, some don’t. Some have teachers dedicated to their community and some of the same (like any business) have teachers that are only drawing a paycheck and don’t care. Although there are many unqualified teachers (in the opinion of an engineer) the dedicated qualified ones are a blessing to the community. You all are anecdoting us to death!
Any person (female or otherwise) that can encounter 20-25 obnoxious 7 – 14 year olds, oversexed 13 – 17 year olds, and not-potty trained uncoordinated youngers for 6 – 7 hours a day without going insane has my complete admiration. To teach these creatures anything while handling ignorant, crude, loud mouthed complaining parents during and after school is heroic in scope. And these creatures generally do learn the basics.
Don’t compare what teachers are paid or not paid. It takes twice as much to maintain the same standard of living on the East coast as it does on the great plains. This does lead to some grumbling comparisons by teachers out here. But a teacher with a $130K house in Oklahoma City has a better house than a teacher living in a $250K garage on the East coast.
Old Country Boy on February 16, 2010 at 5:36 PM
@Mad Kimchi My kid’s “honors” biology teacher views her job as prepping the students for the Ohio graduation Test, not igniting a passion for science. Sigh.
As far as unions go, I’m in total agreement. I grew up in right-to-work Texas. But I’m conflicted, since my (excellent) benefits are the result of the strong faculty union.
skydaddy on February 16, 2010 at 5:40 PM
We will probably never know if the teachers are part of the problem. It’s RI and any settlements may or may not go before the rank and file. In any case, the Feds may take it over in the end? You folks still in the business..Is that Federal take over rule still in force?
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 5:57 PM
I wish BOTH were valued more than music or athlete ‘stars’. Here and hip today, gone & forgotten tomorrow, that’s the way it goes for all but a tiny few musicians and sports greats.
Once read a collection of cartoonists’ responses to 9/11, and one of the strips that stuck with me most compared a basketball star to a soldier. “This man defends a small metal hoop. What do we pay him” This man defends freedom. What do we pay him?“
Dark-Star on February 16, 2010 at 6:04 PM
I taught school before the union became so powerful. We were expected to be available to students and parents before and after school. We were expected to take our turn at supervising recesses, study halls, and lunchrooms. We were expected to to attend PTA meetings and board meetings. We had lots of homework to grade and my class sizes were usually 30+. I had no teacher’s aide, no drugs were administered to students, and we were paid less than most city laborers. I taught in a rural small town and later in one of the worst inner city areas in the country. I saw gang fights and drug abuse, both by students and parents. Single parent families were the norm. One year my third grade had over 1/3 of the mothers working the streets and on drugs. Another year one of the so-called fathers was shot and killed, another year a sister was assualted and raped. Another year gang members murdered two middle school students across the street from our school. But still the success rate at both schools was in the 75-90% range. We were the island of caring and sanity in a troubled world. It is the teachers’ job to teach all the children. Anyone who fails to do that is a failure as a teacher, no matter the circumstances.
Deanna on February 16, 2010 at 6:17 PM
The teachers in our district start at 40,000 max at 56,000 in three years. More pay for advanced education and 5 to 6 thousand extra for coaching per season or sponsoring clubs.
The average wage in our district for teachers is now over 70,000 with retirement income of 70% with 20years of service and 50 years old. Administrators average 100,000 with the superintendant at 240,000 same retirement of course the number of admins has tripled in 15 years. We have a principal of the senior high, a principal of curriculum for the senior high, an assistant principal for the senior high, a principal for 12th one for 11th and one for 10th – admin wages and benifits for senior high admins over 1 million a year. While our township workers had to take unpaid furloughs for 20% of work week the teachers got a 4% raise. Teachers get paid extra for anything over 6.5 hrs per day and 180 days per year. The teachers union is very strong in Pennsylvania and they say that they are underpaid.
duncantwn on February 16, 2010 at 6:18 PM
I’d like to see a world where we valued teachers more than rock stars or athletes.
I’d prefer a world where we valued soldiers more than rock stars or athletes.
PrezHussein on February 16, 2010 at 6:33 PM
We do value teachers and soldiers more than rock stars and athletes. Teachers who aren’t very good still have a job for life. Athletes have to perform very well to have an average three year career.
PrezHussein on February 16, 2010 at 6:36 PM
I have had great teachers. My kids have had great teachers. But really good dedicated teachers are pretty rare.
Unions make teaching more about teachers than about kids.
I like the testing that is done with the no child left behind… teachers need to be accountable for how the days are spent.
I’m glad the Superintendent fired the teachers. He should hire some new blood. It will save the district money and make lower child/teacher ratios.
Teachers making $70,000 are pretty experienced, but at least in this case, that experience didn’t seem to be helping anyone. Time for new teachers with new dedication.
petunia on February 16, 2010 at 6:51 PM
This will not be the last time you see this happen. Now who is going to run the school tomorrow? Reagan called in the Guard to help run it until the controllers regained their senses.
Regardless, I’m impressed. Wait until snow plow operators in D.C. who had their vehicle break down are handed a shovel and told to dig!
archer52 on February 16, 2010 at 6:51 PM
Hm. Maybe if you linked to an article where a book was actually banned on purpose, it would give you a little more credibility. Ya think?
kg598301 on February 16, 2010 at 6:55 PM
And yet make enough to last more than several teachers’ and soldiers’ lifetimes and have unparalleled fame throughout their lives.
Esthier on February 16, 2010 at 6:55 PM
Dear Superintendant –
What she said. (Except that I have a bachelor’s degree in management and finance.)
I would love to teach school, would love to make a difference in someone’s life, and would happily give an extra 25 minutes a day, tutor at night, eat lunch with the little darlings every day if that was what it took.
Sincerely,
uncivilized
uncivilized on February 16, 2010 at 6:55 PM
It would be interesting to know how this school fared after the unions got control. Did the success range stay the same or go lower? My guess is it went lower.
Does anyone remember the amount of money Barack Obama and Bill Ayers spent trying to improve Chicago schools and the success rate of their “improvements”. I thought those statistics should have been more widely talked about since it was one of the only jobs Obama ever had.
But not it was irrelevant… given how much money that stimulus has had and the amount of success it had… it seems like the same old story for Obama’s attempts to make improvements.
petunia on February 16, 2010 at 6:56 PM
There are more violins playing on this thread than I’ve heard in a long time.
I quit my j.o.b as a high school guidance counselor (top pay $38k — non-union –with an MEd) to start my own business 8 years ago. I have never looked back…if you don’t like it, do something else, but quit whining.
Done.
LEBA on February 16, 2010 at 6:57 PM
So, I’m guessing you didn’t like it.
So be it. For every disenchanted guidance counselor or teacher like you, I can point out at least one that wouldn’t give up their j.o.b. for the world.
You’re right. If you don’t like your job, you should look elsewhere.
uncivilized on February 16, 2010 at 7:03 PM
I would like to see teachers perform at the level of rock stars, and professional athletes.
Slowburn on February 16, 2010 at 7:05 PM
So change the union…use your power, your education to change the system…or put up with it, and be lumped into all the rest who say “I have no choice”…
right2bright on February 16, 2010 at 7:08 PM
Hell, let’s just fire everyone in the whole country and please everyone! I’m sure all of us have one person out there that thinks we’re incompetent, ticked them off, etc. so should therefore be fired.
Honestly, if these kids can’t learn in 7 and a half hours a day, five days a week, then I can’t seen how teachers eating with them and explaining the same stuff to them yet again is going to make any difference…maybe if they take the ear buds out and turn off the cell phones long enough, then maybe.
When a concern fails in the private sector, we conservatives demand that the leadership be replaced as they are obviously not doing much good with what they have. It’s only when it comes to teaching that we demand that the rank and file be replaced instead of those at the top.
It’s simply the attitude that teachers are lazy and incompetent…if they weren’t then they’d be “doing what I do”. Using that red ink to point out inadequacies years ago gets carried in the psyche for a lifetime I guess.
Dr. ZhivBlago on February 16, 2010 at 7:10 PM
You are comparing the best to the average. Average athlete makes a teachers wage as a college athlete. Best teachers make millions through book sales.
You
PrezHussein on February 16, 2010 at 7:12 PM
Teachers only work appoximately 186 days a year, 7 hours a day.
Their salaries increase everytime they accumulate more credits to their degree (+ 15, + 30, etc.)
Their salaries also increase every year.
So, really….They do make big salaries.
And as for the argument that districts have to pay top dollar to get the better teachers, well, I’ll say that argument is mute because many years ago in many parochial schools, all the teachers were nuns who didn’t get a cent
for teaching….And they did their jobs well! Anyway,
all these schools should scale back the pay for teachers and administrators and hire people who have a passion for teaching, and not just a passion for making big bucks on the backs of the taxpayers.
centre on February 16, 2010 at 7:13 PM
Seems we have a bunch of folks in this country that think we Americans have too much money, too much energy, too much food…and a lot of them are in the White House.
Makes me wonder why all the complaints about an illegal or legal immigrant willing to work far less than homegrown Americans…by this logic we should all be willing to work for far less. But, yet these same types complain that they’re losing “their” jobs to immigrants.
Seems to me that’s simply part of Capitalism. Why hire some high school drop out for $20 an hour when you can hire an immigrant who will do it for $5 and appreciate it much more?
Dr. ZhivBlago on February 16, 2010 at 7:20 PM
Apparently there’s a precedent for the CF thing. Seems the same thing happened at Hope High in Providence around 2005 for the same reasons. Not sure of the outcome, but they hired back 50% of the fired teachers. The other 50% got jobs elsewhere in the school system. The school was reorganized into three separate ‘mods’, each with its own principal and I guess(not sure)that the school is doing alright. But Hope is much, much bigger than CF which only has about 800 students and not a lot of other city schools to provide jobs for those teachers who remain fired. Interesting to see what will happen. Law suits abatch?
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 7:21 PM
The superintendent obviously thinks she can get more dedication & a better education for the kids for the money the school is paying teachers. Her call to make, & I bet it will work.
kg598301 on February 16, 2010 at 7:32 PM
I sure hope the superintendent asks for more help from the folks in that town. If they want their town to succeed, then the parents, the kids, and the teachers need to step up. If mom and dad step up, so will the teachers–if not, then the teachers won’t–and I can’t say as I blame them much. Success at school starts at home.
I know that education gets bashed left and right, but the true origin of educational problems starts on Main Street. They’re merely manifested in academic failure. There’s outliers sure, but if a kid doesn’t have a safe, warm, stable and healthy homelife, ain’t no teacher giving 25 minutes going to change that.
Troof.
ted c on February 16, 2010 at 7:38 PM
There shouldn’t be any “public” and I use the term very loosely, sector unions at all. Who are they being protected from?………the taxpayer? They are not elected. Union bosses should be accountable to the taxpayers and we don’t want them.
lilium on February 16, 2010 at 7:40 PM
Last year, a school district in NY, gave a choice to the teachers; Salary freeze, or a few fellow teachers would have to be laid off. The teachers voted on it and the decision was to continue getting their raises, therefore, 3 teachers were laid off.
Last month, the same thing happened in another district
and teachers voted the same, to get their raises at the expense of fellow teachers being laid off.
I’m not sure what to make of all this.
centre on February 16, 2010 at 7:42 PM
The teachers don’t care about their jobs, despite all the NEA propaganda about selflessly doing it for the kids.
I say close all the public schools and issue vouchers so that parents can choose among charter schools that offer real education not socialization and indoctrination- like February’s month long rant against white people.
highhopes on February 16, 2010 at 7:48 PM
Happens all the time. Used to really get to me. For just a couple dollars less, the majority of the teachers in the district I used to work in could have shown solidarity with their fellow professionals and they never, never did. Can’t blame the Union for that one, the teachers have to step up and take the blame in that scenario. I suppose if it happened all the time, the pay drops might have gotten unacceptable, but surely some of the time, we could have voted to keep personnel we all knew were valuable.
jeanie on February 16, 2010 at 7:50 PM
I don’t think the superintendent is going to have to worry about filling those positions as it looks like there’s a lot of new teaching applications forthcoming from here on the Hot Air blog!
Please keep us posted on all those new charter schools you all are going to start up…really.
Awesome.
Dr. ZhivBlago on February 16, 2010 at 7:57 PM
I’m all for paying for quality. But with certain basic necessities like education (up through high school) there should be no good teacher or bad teacher. You either can do the job and teach the material or you can’t. Not every kid is going to be an A student but as for the teachers —> if you suck well you suck and teaching might not be for you.
These people are not a privileged class. They should be expected to put in the time necessary to get the job done. As for their raises there should be no guarantees on one being given. Any raise in pay should be merit based.
Rattl3r on February 16, 2010 at 8:10 PM
Somebody, and it may as well be me, needs to say this.
Teaching is glorified daycare. It is a 20K a year job at best. Teachers are coddled and glorified and I just don’t see where they deserve any glory. There is no easier job out there for the money.
Having said that, I admire and sup[port non-union private school teachers who are paid based on job performance and nor tenure and seniority.
epluribusunum on February 16, 2010 at 8:19 PM
Dr. ZhivBlago,
I know a few teachers. They are family members. I get to hear all the “dirt” that goes on in education.
And by the way, when I mentioned that they get a salary increase due to accumulating more “credits”, I’ll have you know that some of those “credits” a lot of the time have nothing to do with a teachers area of education.
For instance: “Hike the trails of the Rockefeller estate, learn the history of the area.” Yeah, my math teaching cousin couldn’t wait to take that course and get the 3 credits to make it another step which increased his pay.
Or how about this one: “Learn about alternative green energy.” Yeah, my sister, an english teacher, signed up for that one.
Then there was the: “Learn how to eat healthier.”…..
I could go on and on, but I’ll end this entry with this- Try going to your Board of Education and asking to see WHAT extra courses were taken by teachers that attributed to their step increases. I’ll bet they won’t divulge that information, because at BOE meetings all that is mentioned
is that the teachers have made it to the next step increase.
So, as you can see, teaching can be quite a racket.
centre on February 16, 2010 at 8:21 PM
I agree. However, there is probably more to the story than that. Much depends on how the “request” was made of the teachers to do this.
When I taught school, teachers were given longer days without being asked, and we complied. We knew that it was in the best interests of students and teachers alike.
As far as the tutoring, if the tutoring was to take place during teachers’ planning times, then the request may have been illegal. Planning times are necessary in order to accomplish many of the things teachers need to do during the day, and this is essentially guaranteed time. It would have been customary to offer compensation to teachers who were “asked” to do tutoring. If the tutoring was to take place after school, that would be reasonable, as long as it didn’t require teachers to remain past their dismissal time (I suspect that many teachers would have gladly remained after then anyway). When we were asked to do tutoring after school by the administration, it was voluntary, and compensation was provided.
oakland on February 16, 2010 at 8:22 PM
Sister Mary Frances is that you ?
sonnyspats1 on February 16, 2010 at 8:23 PM
Is there no “merit” in seniority?
oakland on February 16, 2010 at 8:24 PM
At some point a senior employee’s compensation needs to be tied to the organization meeting its overall goals. Their experience has to contribute to an improvement in the organization as a whole.
Parents should have choice and schools that fail would be closed like any other business that delivers an inferior or overpriced product.
dedalus on February 16, 2010 at 8:34 PM
Yes, but here’s the kicker: how do you create an equitable process whereby schools that service large numbers of minority and poor children (i.e., the historic underachievers) are on a level field with schools that service more affluent children (and therefore higher achievers)?
oakland on February 16, 2010 at 8:44 PM
By whose decree must I be “lumped in”? The NEA is the biggest union in the US. MANY folks recognize that while there are many lazy and incompetent teachers, there are also many who go way above and beyond the call of duty.
Also, please explain to me what is entailed in a public school teacher divorcing herself from the NEA. I know exactly what is required, but I wonder if you do. Before you give advice, perhaps you ought to be informed about what you’re advising.
Grace_is_sufficient on February 16, 2010 at 8:49 PM
Within the current system, expanding charter schools seems like the best option. Parents (for those kids who have functioning parents) need to have more than just one choice based simply on where they reside.
dedalus on February 16, 2010 at 8:55 PM
I hear ya, there is a multitude of Liberal BS and that’s what I blame mostly for the state many of these school systems are in. Also, yes, there are those teachers who really don’t do their jobs…they’d rather be pals with their students than expect anything from them. They can be put through a program to show improvement or lose their jobs. But, how many bad teachers make a failing system? How many bad workers make a failing company? How many that think that teachers are lazy have never called in sick because they were hung over/didn’t feel like going in, took extended breaks, spent time on the clock BSing or surfing the net, gabbing on the phone, or “borrowed” company tools or vehicles, and so on?
One has to also consider that unions are stronger in some places than in others. Consider, too, that tenure insures more academic freedom and a better chance for a teacher to control the classroom and have high expectations…or not do much of anything, but few do that. Who is more likely to get fired…the teacher who won’t take crap from unruly students and actually fails those who deserve it, or those who never or rarely write up nor fail anyone?
Many of us are former military and conservative. We think that many of these kids need more guidance and a proverbial kick in the butt rather than warm fuzzies and conferment of success and entitlement upon them. Last I heard the NEA is 60/40 Democrat to Republican. The conservative element has their own caucus. We need parents and the community to demand hardcore academic standards and stand by the educators when the student fails to achieve…it could be the whole class. If entire companies fail, why can’t an entire class? Companies can go bankrupt and regroup-students can be remediated.
See, we’ll never take that leap because the sausage grinder will get backed up. We, as a group, are forced to dish out mediocrity and engage in coddling in order to keep it moving, regardless of what comes out the other end.
A student gets an A, that’s his/her achievement, and they could do that even without a teacher. A student gets an F and that’s the teacher’s fault. That doesn’t jive with the conservative value of personal responsibility. So, we get what we get.
As for merit pay, how does a PE teacher get in on this? Their kids have to do X number of push-ups more at the end of the semester? How do you grade a band student’s improvement on a written test (what if they have no ear for music in the first place?). If an art student doesn’t get their own exhibit, the teacher sucks?
Kids need to learn handle personal responsibility…a little at a time to be sure. Turning 18 or being handed that diploma doesn’t impart some kind of magical gift of adulthood upon them. They have to learn to earn their education just as they need to learn how to make a living and support a family.
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and many, many others up there weren’t born with silver spoons in their mouths. They started at an early age and achieved higher education and they’ve been running the show for a long time now and are in a position to change this country into a Socialist State. In the meantime, Conservatives largely sit around bitching about teachers and doing something they say they’re against…blaming others for theirs (and their kids’) problems.
How’s that working for us?
Dr. ZhivBlago on February 16, 2010 at 9:08 PM
I’ve noticed that these are gaining in popularity. You need a strong faculty that is dedicated to its mission. I wonder how charter schools in my state compare with the traditional ones in test scores, graduation rates, etc.
You said parent involvement is important, and I couldn’t agree more. The presence of parents on campus for meetings and open houses speaks volumes about their expectations. I spent many an open house where only two or three sets of parents (or single parents) showed up, and this was discouraging. If you are a parent, show up at school now and then (despite your child’s objections); it makes a big difference in how your teachers see themselves partners with parents in educating their children.
oakland on February 16, 2010 at 9:29 PM
How to fix the school system in three steps.
1. Eliminate the DOE
2. Eliminate the NEA
3. Eliminate 75% of school administration.
daesleeper on February 16, 2010 at 10:16 PM
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