Indefinite detention law a bad idea

posted at 10:12 am on February 16, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

As Allahpundit noted last night, the push to create an indefinite-detention law to allow the government to hold al-Qaeda terrorists is not a new idea, but it is a bad idea.  It springs from a return to the law-enforcement model and the desperation of an administration that has begun to feel the limitations of their approach.  That’s why the White House has once again begun floating trial balloons to which it hopes Congress will react with legislation, and unfortunately some on Capitol Hill — including one prominent Republican — want to provide that cover:

The White House is considering endorsing a law that would allow the indefinite detention of some alleged terrorists without trial as part of efforts to break a logjam with Congress over President Barack Obama’s plans to close the Guantanamo Bay prison, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said Monday.

Last summer, White House officials said they had ruled out seeking a “preventive detention” statute as a way to deal with anti-terror detainees, saying the administration would hold any Guantanamo prisoners brought to the U.S. in criminal courts or under the general “law of war” principles permitting detention of enemy combatants.

However, speaking at a news conference in Greenville, S.C. Monday, Graham said the White House now seems open to a new law to lay out the standards for open-ended imprisonment of those alleged to be members of or fighters for Al Qaeda or the Taliban.

“We’re beginning to look at the idea we need to change our laws come up with better guidance” for judges handling cases of enemy combatants, Graham said. “I’ve been talking to the administration for the last couple of days. I’m encouraged that we’re going to sit down and do some of the hard things we haven’t done as a nation after September 11.”

The reason Graham and others want a law allowing for indefinite detention is the push to close Gitmo.  As long as terrorists remain incarcerated at Gitmo, they remain in military custody outside the US, with limited application of criminal-justice laws.  The White House wants them housed in a civilian center in Thomson, Illinois, which would create all sorts of legal problems for the government.  The US has no law that allows the government to indefinitely detain anyone within the criminal-justice system, and of course has the Constitutional duty to respect the right to a speedy trial by a jury of one’s peers, with the right to face one’s accusers in open court.

There are two main problems with pursuing an indefinite-detention law.  First, any exception carved out of those Constitutional rights will only serve as a precedent for further exceptions.  This is truly a slippery slope.  Right now, the lawmakers say that the exception will only apply to al-Qaeda terrorists, but what about child molesters?  There has been an ongoing debate for many years over the lack of rehabilitation of serial molesters.  When they have served their prison time, they get released — but some communities have petitioned for indefinite detention of molesters beyond their sentence. And after child molesters, how about rapists?  What about gang members, and Mafia racketeers?

Once we’ve established that the government can make exceptions in the legal system to basic Constitutional rights, those exceptions will be the equivalent of Lay’s potato chips.  We won’t be able to stop eating at just one.

The second problem is that there really isn’t a problem at all.  This is a solution for a completely artificial condition caused by an insistence on using the legal system for a situation it wasn’t designed to handle.  Captured terrorists are illegal combatants in a war conducted against the US and its allies.  The military can hold captured combatants until the end of hostilities without any involvement by the American legal system at all.  All that is required is due process within the military system to satisfactorily determine that the detainee belongs in custody.  If the terrorists have signed up for a perpetual war, that’s their problem and not ours.  We can choose to release them or not depending on our own goals and decisions.

The founding fathers kept the civilian legal system distinct and separate from the military for good reasons.  They did not want an American version of Cromwell’s Army violating the natural rights they outlined in the Constitution.  We should respect that wisdom and keep our military affairs out of our civilian courtrooms altogether, and then there would be no need for a distinctly dangerous notion like indefinite-detention laws for Americans.

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

The military can hold captured combatants until the end of hostilities without any involvement by the American legal system at all.

The legal system is already there. It’s called the Geneva Convention, a treaty which has been ratified by the Senate.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:16 AM

The military can hold captured combatants until the end of hostilities without any involvement by the American legal system at all.

If that’s not good enough then kill’em all and let Allah sort them out…..

SHARPTOOTH on February 16, 2010 at 10:18 AM

Of course, treaties customarily require some form of enabling legislation. We could indeed go there, clarifying that it is the right of our military to hold unlawful combatants, provided we treat them as if they were lawful combatants under the Convention.

That exceeds the rights afforded unlawful combatants under the Convention, which is basically the right to be summarily executed.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:18 AM

Thanks, Ed. I went skeptically into your essay, and came out persuaded on both points.

petefrt on February 16, 2010 at 10:19 AM

And after child molesters, how about rapists? What about gang members, and Mafia racketeers?

Not as bad as those evil AGW-denying, anti-health-care overhauling Rethuglicans. Gitmo for all of us!

The US was able to hold captured WWII uniformed German soldiers in POW camps on US soil. Those who slipped into this country out of uniform with the intent to commit sabotage were given a military trial and then shot. AQ does not wear uniforms and they intend to commit sabotage & murder against the civilian population. Military commission and then firing squad.

rbj on February 16, 2010 at 10:20 AM

All of which means that the lawyers will be in charge of war fighting since the legal system will be expanded to cover war time combatants.

Skandia Recluse on February 16, 2010 at 10:23 AM

Of course, treaties customarily require some form of enabling legislation. We could indeed go there, clarifying that it is the right of our military to hold unlawful combatants, provided we treat them as if they were lawful combatants under the Convention.

That exceeds the rights afforded unlawful combatants under the Convention, which is basically the right to be summarily executed.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:18 AM

I think I prefer lawful combatants to have advantages over the unlawful ones.

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:24 AM

All of which means the lawyers will be in charge of rules of engagement since the legal system will be expanded to cover war time operations by the military.

Skandia Recluse on February 16, 2010 at 10:24 AM

We should respect that wisdom and keep our military affairs out of our civilian courtrooms altogether, and then there would be no need for a distinctly dangerous notion like indefinite-detention laws for Americans.

I think the issue with certain people is not so much that we should keep military affairs out of our civilian courtrooms, but that we should keep civilian affairs out of the military courtroom.

The boundary between civilian and military affairs becomes blurred when one is dealing with terrorism or insurrection (in which citizens participate in attacks upon the United States).

I personally think the framework for any laws should be in the form of enabling legislation for the Geneva Convention. That allows us to cross every i and dot every t with regard to international law in one swell foop.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:25 AM

Yeah why should the United States have laws outlining what our government is authorized to do? I’ve always thought the US government ought to be more Kafkaesque.

First, any exception carved out of those Constitutional rights will only serve as a precedent for further exceptions. This is truly a slippery slope.

Because what we have right now isn’t a slippery slope? LOL, Ed. LOL.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

The legal system is already there. It’s called the Geneva Convention, a treaty which has been ratified by the Senate.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:16 AM

No. The system is already there is our tradition of holding enemies without trial, period. The Geneva Conventions are a bad joke that no one in the world ever followed, save one or two pieces here and there, when convenient. Our strategic nuclear arsenal violates the Geneva Conventions, but we keep our arsenal because that is what security demands.

To do anything to try and promote the idea that the Geneva Conventions are something akin to actual law is a very bad move that is nothing less than suicide. If you do that, this administration will take our nuclear arsenal to court and have them rule it in violation.

International treaties are not bodies of law that we sign onto. They are treaties that must be accepted and followed in full or they are rendered invalid. The Geneva Conventions were always invalid, becaue everyone treated them as a la carte menus to pick and choose from. That works for laws, not for treaties. People just liked the utopian and insane Geneva Conventions hanging around because it made war seem civilized. But that was never anything but a facade.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

Yeah why should the United States have laws outlining what our government is authorized to do? I’ve always thought the US government ought to be more Kafkaesque.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

We have fought wars and detained enemy combatants without trial (and worse) since our Rev0lution. What nation have you been living in?

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:28 AM

We are dealing with lawless barbarians , they recognize no laws of war, no laws of civility and no laws of humanity, therefore there should be no laws written providing them legitimacy.

fourdeucer on February 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM

This is truly a slippery slope. Right now, the lawmakers say that the exception will only apply to al-Qaeda terrorists, but what about child molesters? There has been an ongoing debate for many years over the lack of rehabilitation of serial molesters. When they have served their prison time, they get released — but some communities have petitioned for indefinite detention of molesters beyond their sentence. And after child molesters, how about rapists? What about gang members, and Mafia racketeers, Tea Partyists, Federalists, Constitutionalists, Small Business owners, Property Owners, Non Union workers etc...

katy on February 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM

I think I prefer lawful combatants to have advantages over the unlawful ones.

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:24 AM

The problem occurs when you detain an unlawful combatant without summarily executing him. Is he a civilian or a military problem?

The converse to this problem was discussed by Ed in a recent post — to just proceed to the summary execution phase without any detention.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:30 AM

Our strategic nuclear arsenal violates the Geneva Conventions, but we keep our arsenal because that is what security demands.
neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

Huh? Which part is that?

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:32 AM

We are dealing with lawless barbarians , they recognize no laws of war, no laws of civility and no laws of humanity, therefore there should be no laws written providing them legitimacy.

fourdeucer on February 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM

We’re not providing them legitimacy, we’re writing laws here that permit indefinite detention. So we have some kind of definable standard as opposed to “Let’s just detain whoever if we think they’re dangerous enough.”

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM

Because what we have right now isn’t a slippery slope? LOL, Ed. LOL.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

If you knew anything, you would know that it isn’t.
Was it a slippery slope when we kept German and Japanese POW’s locked up until the war was over?

WHy is this different?

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 10:35 AM

Huh? Which part is that?

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:32 AM

I would guess the part that says that weapons are not supposed to target civilians.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 10:36 AM

Yeah why should the United States have laws outlining what our government is authorized to do? I’ve always thought the US government ought to be more Kafkaesque.

First, any exception carved out of those Constitutional rights will only serve as a precedent for further exceptions. This is truly a slippery slope.

Because what we have right now isn’t a slippery slope? LOL, Ed. LOL.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

Quit intentionally distorting what Ed wrote. We already do have laws & treaties outlining what our government is authorized to do. Uniformed enemy soldiers get POW status, those out of uniform get a quick military trial, (and if convicted) and execution. This goes back to the American Revolution and Major John Andre, and Nathan Hale. It is part of the Geneva Convention and the Law of War.

rbj on February 16, 2010 at 10:37 AM

The problem occurs when you detain an unlawful combatant without summarily executing him. Is he a civilian or a military problem?

The converse to this problem was discussed by Ed in a recent post — to just proceed to the summary execution phase without any detention.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 10:30 AM

I tend to think it should be obvious that it should be a military issue. I’m a little irritated that we don’t seem to be able to move them to military bases stateside and still keep it a military issue.
It’s not like we couldn’t have POW camps during WWII.

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:37 AM

Part of Obamas shell game!

No way he will do this to his muslim brothers.

bluegrass on February 16, 2010 at 10:38 AM

Huh? Which part is that?

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:32 AM

Threats and intimidation of civilians (which is what MAD is all about) and the intentional targeting of civilians, which is the operative part of a strategic nuke (and rightfully so). There are a few other idiotic articles of the 4th Conventions that are violated.

But, only a total moron would take a piece of paper that, no one in the world follows, over what we know is necessary for our own defense. The Geneva Conventions are a sad joke that do nothing but imperil our nation, if people start taking them seriously. We treat enemy soldiers in a way commensurate with what we need and how the enemy treats our soldiers, but the Geneva Conventions never really have anything to do with actual policy and actions.

By the 4th Geneva Conventions, the ALlies were all war criminals in WWII, as the 4th Geneva Conventions were written after we won that war, declaring most of our winning tactics to be illegal. That was the treaty euivalent of having called WWI “the War to End All Wars”. An emotional and silly reaction after terrible hostilities that had no connection to reality but made people feel good to think “that can never happen again”. But, that is always dangerous thinking that brings on even worse.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:38 AM

Uniformed enemy soldiers get POW status, those out of uniform get a quick military trial, (and if convicted) and execution. This goes back to the American Revolution and Major John Andre, and Nathan Hale. It is part of the Geneva Convention and the Law of War.

rbj on February 16, 2010 at 10:37 AM

But we have out of uniform enemies combatants that are not being given military trials. They’re just being detained. Indefinitely. So if that is in fact the law, then we’re violating it by detaining enemy combatants indefinitely.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

Knowing Obama, Pelosi, et al

the real target of this law will be “Right Wing” terrorists like the people who maintain and contribute to this blog.

CrazyGene on February 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

I would guess the part that says that weapons are not supposed to target civilians.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 10:36 AM

The way around that if using ‘countervalue’ in a strategic nuclear war is that the city so targeted has other value. The city could be a center of politics, industry, finances, a sea port, whatever. Civilians are merely ‘collateral damage’. At least, that’s the theory.

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

I would guess the part that says that weapons are not supposed to target civilians.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 10:36 AM

Hmmm. I didn’t realize that that was included. Though I do seem to remember an odd rule about battlefield fatality rates.
Well, to be honest, the civilian casualties are really just collateral damage from the destruction of infrastructure, anyway.

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

the real target of this law will be “Right Wing” terrorists like the people who maintain and contribute to this blog.

CrazyGene on February 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

Um, wow, Gene, you’re cr-oh. Never mind.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

Because what we have right now isn’t a slippery slope? LOL, Ed. LOL.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

So, the constitution is a “slippery slope”?

Always thought that was how progressives viewed it.
Guess I was right.

donh525 on February 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM

So, the constitution is a “slippery slope”?

Always thought that was how progressives viewed it.
Guess I was right.

donh525 on February 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM

Reading comp fail.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM

This is truly a slippery slope. Right now, the lawmakers say that the exception will only apply to al-Qaeda terrorists, but what about child molesters?

I agree. What about political opponents that some panel could characterize as “extremists?” It is a bad, bad precedent to continue this process. The presumption of innocence in our legal system is a good thing. Although it results in some guilty people going free, there is an acknowledgement that there is a greater moral law, God’s law that will reckon the guilty with their crime.

ted c on February 16, 2010 at 10:43 AM

Indefinite detention of enemy combatants is something I think should be avoided if at all possible, but I have no problem with it or the patriot act if ONE clause were added:

Does not apply to US Citizens.

As has been shown with the patriot act, failure to exclude US citizens has and will result in abuses of the law by unsavory characters like Obama and Janet Incompetano.

wildcat84 on February 16, 2010 at 10:43 AM

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM

But the 4th Geneva Conventions disallow even the intimidation (or humiliation!) of civilians. It really is beyond nuts.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM

We’re not providing them legitimacy

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM

The whole idea is to write a law predicated on what is an appropriate detention time frame for detainees. Detainees are all they are until hostilities are over. A law giving legal status of any type gives them legitimacy.

fourdeucer on February 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM

I agree. What about political opponents that some panel could characterize as “extremists?” It is a bad, bad precedent to continue this process. The presumption of innocence in our legal system is a good thing. Although it results in some guilty people going free, there is an acknowledgement that there is a greater moral law, God’s law that will reckon the guilty with their crime.

ted c on February 16, 2010 at 10:43 AM

This objection could apply without any indefinite detention law. I believe that if the statute was not written carefully, it could be used in ways not intended (like any statute), but the alternative – indefinite detentions with no statutes to guide them – could be abused just as easily, if not moreso.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:45 AM

So if that is in fact the law, then we’re violating it by detaining enemy combatants indefinitely.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

Very cognizant of you.
Want to volunteer for the firing squad?

donh525 on February 16, 2010 at 10:45 AM

But the 4th Geneva Conventions disallow even the intimidation (or humiliation!) of civilians. It really is beyond nuts.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM

MAD was a crazy idea to begin with, but it basically worked. The civilians in the target cities were being intimidated per se. The idea of countervalue is to intimidate the opposing government, where any attack on us would result in swift reprisal. It was all based on deterrence and the premise the other side had rational leaders.

Semantics in the end, I know.

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 10:48 AM

Indefinite detention of enemy combatants is something I think should be avoided if at all possible, but I have no problem with it or the patriot act if ONE clause were added:

Does not apply to US Citizens.

wildcat84 on February 16, 2010 at 10:43 AM

Hamdi v. Rumsfeld allows US citizens to challenge their detentions already.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:48 AM

…were not being intimidated, that is..

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 10:49 AM

Threats and intimidation of civilians (which is what MAD is all about) and the intentional targeting of civilians, which is the operative part of a strategic nuke (and rightfully so). There are a few other idiotic articles of the 4th Conventions that are violated.
neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:38 AM

Nuclear stockpiles don’t threaten or intimidate civilians in the manner that would have been intended for. It isn’t really the civilians that the nuke is targeting, but the infrastructure that is used in war-making.
Though I will take your point that some of the Geneva conventions at least seem self defeating.

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:49 AM

Reading comp fail.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM

And all I wanted was your approval. Aww!

donh525 on February 16, 2010 at 10:49 AM

Swift executions of non-uniformed captured combatants could have the secondary effect of encouraging the Taliban et al to start wearing them. You want Geneva protections, you put on a uniform and fight like a soldier. Otherwise, tata MF.

GnuBreed on February 16, 2010 at 10:50 AM

But we have out of uniform enemies combatants that are not being given military trials. They’re just being detained. Indefinitely. So if that is in fact the law, then we’re violating it by detaining enemy combatants indefinitely.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

I’m in favor of giving them military trials. I do want to separate the wheat from the chaff. And that is what George W. Bush wanted to do. There was a military commissions tribunal in place. But they should not be part of our civilian criminal justice system. Especially if it means they get held indefinitely without a trial.

Aren’t you troubled by Eric Holder’s pronouncement that KSM would continue to be held even if not convicted in a NY trial? If one person can continue to be held even after a not guilty verdict, why not others? We are in a war, not a criminal investigation.

Many states already hold some dangerous sexual predators in “civil confinement” after they’ve completed their sentence. We do not need to add to that.

rbj on February 16, 2010 at 10:50 AM

The idea would be less troubling if the Obama Administration hadn’t already indicated what category they put the tea partiers in–”domestic terrorists.”

RBMN on February 16, 2010 at 10:52 AM

Maybe they should get the same legal protection as an unviable mass of tissue.

fourdeucer on February 16, 2010 at 10:56 AM

Why do I feel nervous ( or nauseous )every time Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) gets involved with the Democrats or White House?

The little weasel sellout never seems to get it.
Negotiating with Dems is never to conservative advantage and always to theirs’.

donh525 on February 16, 2010 at 10:59 AM

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:49 AM

I’m just saying that people need to be very careful about promoting the Geneva Conventions as some sort of law. The leftists will take that and run with it. And my point about this adminsitration taking our own nuclear arsenal to court is not out of the realm of possibilities. They’ve made worse attacks on our system from other anbgles, already, and we know that The Precedent thinks we should unilaterally disarm.

More importantly, people tend to confuse a treaty, like the Conventions, with an actual body of law, that stands as a set of separate prescriptions, with mechanisms for enforcing those provisions and punishing people for individual violations. But, treaties are not bodies of law. Nations cannot pick and choose which parts to follow. Either the treaties are honored in full or they are rendered invalid. And there is no enforcement mechanism for the Geneva Conventions, which makes them more than a sad joke.

I just think people ought to be very, very careful about getting behind the Geneva Conventions. The consequences can be quite gruesome and disastrous for our nation.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:59 AM

Who sets the definition of ‘terrorist’? Is it Congress, through the Constitutional method of legislation signed by the President and reviewed by SCOTUS? Or is it the Dept. of Homeland Security? Or how about the DoD? Who sets the definitions?

Does Congress decide which country is a ‘terrorist state’, or is it the State Dept. that makes that declaration?

Indefinite detention can have unforeseen consequences in the future, which makes it a bad idea. Enemies we capture should be held until the end of hostilities if they can’t be tried. Those who are able to be tried, should be soon as possible. That keeps everything balanced, ‘fair’, and open best we can under the circumstances.

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 10:59 AM

I’m just saying that people need to be very careful about promoting the Geneva Conventions as some sort of law.

Got bad news for ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Clause

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 11:04 AM

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 11:04 AM

Oy. Read the rest of that post describing the difference between a body of law and a treaty. Do you understand the difference? If you sign a contract, you are not allowed to pick and choose which parts fo the contract you think should be operative and which can be ignored. That’s not how contracts work. That’s not how treaties work.

Do you understand what I’m saying?

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 11:08 AM

Do you understand what I’m saying?

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 11:08 AM

Sure. Do you understand that, because a treaty has been ratified, it becomes part of US federal law?

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM

Regarding my post of 10:59, I think the military should be trying any terrorists who aren’t American citizens. Any AQ or Taliban we capture, who are Citizens, should be allowed Constitutional rights unless they publicly renounced their Citizenship.

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 11:14 AM

Keep Gitmo open.

Even if it means putting the idiots who want to close it in it.

profitsbeard on February 16, 2010 at 11:14 AM

No. The system is already there is our tradition of holding enemies without trial, period. The Geneva Conventions are a bad joke that no one in the world ever followed, save one or two pieces here and there, when convenient. Our strategic nuclear arsenal violates the Geneva Conventions, but we keep our arsenal because that is what security demands.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 10:26 AM

I disagree. The Geneva Convention describes how to hold combatants without trial — what their rights and responsibilities are, and what the capturing power’s rights and responsibilities are. It also describes the difference between a lawful and unlawful combatant.

The Geneva Convention, for better or worse, is the law of our land, as a treaty signed by the President and ratified by the Senate.

As for nuclear weapons — possession is not a crime, but use against civilian populations is. We violated the Geneva Conventions at Hiroshima and Nagasake, and I’m sure that factor is in the calculus the paranoid Iranians are using as they rush to obtain a weapon of their own. Never mind that we never used same against either the Soviet Union or China…

I see quite a bit of upside — and no downside, by following the Geneva Convention, or even exceeding the rights it affords to unlawful combatants. For example, the GC provides that we cannot try combatants for their crimes using our civilian justice system unless our own soldiers have access to same. This means, for example, that a detained jihadi that throws a “cocktail” at a solder could be tried under the UCMJ, because that’s exactly what would happen were one of our own soldiers to do that to another.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

Sure. Do you understand that, because a treaty has been ratified, it becomes part of US federal law?

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM

And as it becomes Federal Law, those laws can be repealed. Technically we are in violation of the Treaty but the Constitution is the highest law of the Republic.

Holger on February 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

Sure. Do you understand that, because a treaty has been ratified, it becomes part of US federal law?

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM

Okie doke, there. It becomes part as a whole treaty, not that each of its individual parts is separately considered a US law. A treaty that no one follows and that we violate (thank G-d) with our own nuclear arsenal and defense strategy of MAD (which no one with a brain would even think of getting rid of) is something that you believe is operative. Hmmmm.

Treaties live or die as whole treaties, not as a la carte menus of law.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

and of course has the Constitutional duty to respect the right to a speedy trial by a jury of one’s peers, with the right to face one’s accusers in open court.

That right there should scare everyone even considering an indefinite detention law. Sure as the sun rises in the East, there will come a time where indefinite suspension will not apply just to terrorists, if such a law is passed.

Johnnyreb on February 16, 2010 at 11:22 AM

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

I have to disagree we violated the Convention with our A-bombs. Each target hit was drawn from a list of possibles, at the discretion of the aircrews. The cities hit just happened to not be covered by clouds.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both important to the Japanese war effort over and above the populations. Both had been relatively untouched during the war, so they made the target list. We can say with a straight face we didn’t intentionally target the civilians, though the claim can be argued, I admit. Again, semantics can come into play here.

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 11:25 AM

MAD was a crazy idea to begin with, but it basically worked….

Liam

Excellent! and that is the real problem the left and other totalitarians have with conservatism, in general – it basically works.

Knott Buyinit on February 16, 2010 at 11:28 AM

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

We treated enemy soldiers better than our enemies treated ours for the whole of our nation’s existence, without any international treaties needed. But we always knew that we would have to do what was called for to defend ourselves, and would not be restricted by any piece of paper. We generally ran on reciprocity, which is the natural law, if someone wants to be as fair as humanly possible. As you said, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki violated the now 4th Conventions (and the firebombings of over 60 Japanese cities before the nukes did, too – along with many other operations the allies ran), so if we found ourselves in that same sort of fight, the Geneva Conventions would force us to lose, or just not win. I just can’t see the point to pretending that such a set of unenforceable and dangerous rules are actually meaningful. It strikes me the same as those who want to empower the UN – another unrealistic reaction to the emotional trauma that the allies experienced in WWII and the ridiculously utopian answer they came up with.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 11:29 AM

I tend to think it should be obvious that it should be a military issue. I’m a little irritated that we don’t seem to be able to move them to military bases stateside and still keep it a military issue.
It’s not like we couldn’t have POW camps during WWII.

Count to 10 on February 16, 2010 at 10:37 AM

We did, and there were escapes. At least one escapee did return to the Fatherland to fight on…

That, of course, is not what lesson we want to enable the jihadis to teach us.

I’d rather have them on a rather escape-proof corner of an island where, if they do escape, it will be to a fate far worse than any the Americans could met out…

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:30 AM

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:18 AM

I wasn’t accusing you of wanting to empower the UN, only that the 4th Geneva Conventions and the UN are very much the same, to me – in the reasons for their creation, their quality and their unrealistic nature.

neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 11:33 AM

We have already signed an Indefinite Detention Law; the Geneva Convention. Enemy combatants may be held until the end of the conflict.

If they say there is no declared war or they are attacking non-millitary targets (like civilian aircraft), then there is a status for that and we can execute them after a military hearing, no trial needed.

barnone on February 16, 2010 at 11:33 AM

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 11:25 AM

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki shock and awe.

I think a strong logical case can always be made that killing 100,000 civilians in Japan (in the way it was done) saved ten times that many civilians, who otherwise, by tradition, would be fighting suicidally to the bitter end.

RBMN on February 16, 2010 at 11:36 AM

***
There is no need to give infinite detention powers to Federal or State authorities. Existing military law–including the Geneva Convention–already grant these powers for the duration of the war being fought.
***
And the Geneva Convention does not protect foreign terrorists, spies, out of uniform combatants, fighters from countries that have not signed the convention, et. al. They do not have any rights under our Constitution.
***
Ditto for criminals who have completed their prison sentences–give them more time–or life–if you don’t want to see them out again. Doing otherwise is unconstitutional.
***
We should not give up our Constitutional rights so easily. We will never get them back, and these changes will be used against us.
***
John Bibb
***

rocketman on February 16, 2010 at 11:42 AM

RBMN on February 16, 2010 at 11:36 AM

I agree entirely! I have no problem with the A-bombings in the least.

The GC can be argued in so many ways. Like, is it ‘targeting civilians’ to bomb a factory making weapons for the enemy?

I think the prohibition extends to things like not hitting a village that contributes nothing materially significant to the enemy’s war effort, or strafing a column of unarmed refugees.

In our case, indefinite detention is a bad idea. Suppose all the Islamic terror groups disband tomorrow and we have ‘world peace’? There’s no longer reason to hold our (former) enemies. I especially don’t like how the notion can possibly degenerate in the future at the whim of a political appointee or a corrupt government.

To turn what would surely be called a ‘hysterical’ or ‘paranoid’ concern around, imagine if a Christian zealot were to be elected president, and his Administration starts redefining what is criminal in this country? I don’t need to come up with details, but I’m sure liberals can catch my drift and use their own imaginations. Hell, many libs already think Christians are trying to do that anyway!

Liam on February 16, 2010 at 11:48 AM

We treated enemy soldiers better than our enemies treated ours for the whole of our nation’s existence, without any international treaties needed.
neurosculptor on February 16, 2010 at 11:29 AM

Andersonville. Elmira. I suppose you are right.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:48 AM

I think a strong logical case can always be made that killing 100,000 civilians in Japan (in the way it was done) saved ten times that many civilians, who otherwise, by tradition, would be fighting suicidally to the bitter end.

RBMN on February 16, 2010 at 11:36 AM

That’s the argument the jihadis use.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:50 AM

We have already signed an Indefinite Detention Law; the Geneva Convention. Enemy combatants may be held until the end of the conflict.

barnone on February 16, 2010 at 11:33 AM

Many treaties are self-regulating — they define not only what is to be done, but how it is to be done. Treaties which only define what is to be done require, in the United States, enabling legislation to define the “how”. Even given that a treaty is self-regulating, the House (which had no say in whether the treaty came into existance or not) can still in effect veto it on a year-to-year basis by not allocating funds for its inforcement/implementation.

We have a rather interesting system of government which seems from outsiders to be crazy, but which works most of the time.

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2010 at 11:55 AM

POWs are held until the end of the war, right? So these nutjobs may be held until this war on terror is over with. When will it be over? Remains to be seen.

There could be some sort of law drafted around these principles with a few specific benchmarks. That will ensure these bad guys are kept behind lock until they are no longer a threat… until there are no big terrorist networks to be navigated by them, or to navigate them into some airline bomb plot.

AlexB on February 16, 2010 at 12:04 PM

This man will do everything he can just to keep from doing the right thing. He makes me sick.

- The Cat

P.S. I’m about to Barak all over my shoes

MirCat on February 16, 2010 at 12:23 PM

unclesmrgol:

The decision to nuke Japan has been thoroughly aired out almost since it happened. It is one I completely agree with. All the Japanese government had to do to avoid it was to surrender. Why didn’t they surrender after the first bomb? Japan was also working on an atomic bomb at two sites, one in Korea and one in Japan. I read a couple of years ago (lost the link, sorry. I’ll share this anyway) that after Hiroshima the leading Japanese nuclear scientist informed the emperor that since it was a uranium bomb, we probably didn’t have much more bomb-grade uranium. After Nagasaki (a plutonium bomb), he told the emperor that we could make as much plutonium (and bombs) as we liked.

My dad would have been on one of the fleet carriers involved in the invasion of Japan. There were serious discussions among the planners about ways to avoid an invasion (LeMay considered dropping poison gas by air, and others proposed a blockade to starve the Japanese into submission). If the japs didn’t want to get nuked they shouldn’t have started the damn war, and if the islamists don’t want to end up in Gitmo they should stay the hell away from us. BTW, the only reason not to execute illegal enemy combatants upon capture is their intelligence value. Once that’s exhausted they should be shot.

JackOkie on February 16, 2010 at 12:24 PM

It’s one thing to lock up POWs under the “law of war” (presuming that the war doesn’t go on forever), but Obama’s attempts to to create permanent detention or “Preventive Detention” using a Constitutional basis under civil and criminal law is quite terrifying.

“It’s really crossing a constitutional Rubicon,” said Jonathan Hafetz, American Civil Liberties Union attorney who represented Ali al Marri. Mr. al Marri recently pleaded guilty to being an al Qaeda sleeper agent after years being held without charge as an “enemy combatant.” Mr. Hafetz says that President Obama is “taking steps that are inconsistent with our legal traditions and values. At the same, he’s closing Guantanamo but he’s creating a new Guantanamo in another form.”

J_Crater on February 16, 2010 at 12:37 PM

Before you accept any President doing this, imagine an extremely ideological President of the other party with these powers.

J_Crater on February 16, 2010 at 12:43 PM

Once we’ve established that the government can make exceptions in the legal system to basic Constitutional rights, those exceptions will be the equivalent of Lay’s potato chips. We won’t be able to stop eating at just one.

Politicians and bureaucrats at all levels have historically proven that to be true. Give them an inch, they take a mile, and for the Democrats especially just getting a toe in the door seems to be their bottom line goal in every piece of legislation they support. They know they can build on it later, amending it inexorably into infinity as they dream up new uses for the basic precept.

KendraWilder on February 16, 2010 at 12:44 PM

But we have out of uniform enemies combatants that are not being given military trials. They’re just being detained. Indefinitely. So if that is in fact the law, then we’re violating it by detaining enemy combatants indefinitely.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:40 AM

Most of them have been given military trials. The only reason why all haven’t is that your side keeps disrupting the process demanding that they get civilian trials.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 1:22 PM

This objection could apply without any indefinite detention law. I believe that if the statute was not written carefully, it could be used in ways not intended (like any statute), but the alternative – indefinite detentions with no statutes to guide them – could be abused just as easily, if not moreso.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 10:45 AM

Lies piled on top of lies.
There are statutes in place already.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 1:25 PM

Lies piled on top of lies.
There are statutes in place already.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 1:25 PM

Curious that you did not mention the names of these statutes, or the relevant text of said statutes. Curious, indeed.

Most of them have been given military trials. The only reason why all haven’t is that your side keeps disrupting the process demanding that they get civilian trials.

MarkTheGreat on February 16, 2010 at 1:22 PM

Wrong.

Proud Rino on February 16, 2010 at 1:40 PM

berri is determined to undermine our most basic Constitutional rights, and do it by giving jihadist enemy combatants Constitutional rights, then taking them away.

With the help of Sen. Lady Graham, the precedent will be set for berri to violate the rights to those he really hates, i.e., pro-lifers, Christians, conservatives.

After jailing those he really hates, he will release his jihadi brethren, thereby setting into motion his claim that “we are no longer a Christian nation” and that “America has one of the largest muslim populations in the world.”

tigerlily on February 16, 2010 at 1:55 PM

tigerlily on February 16, 2010 at 1:55 PM

That could be the dumbest, most paranoid bit of drivel I have ever read on HA.

Squid Shark on February 16, 2010 at 3:58 PM

Once we’ve established that the government can make exceptions in the legal system to basic Constitutional rights, those exceptions will be the equivalent of Lay’s potato chips. We won’t be able to stop eating at just one.


BEST.METAPHOR.EVER

Rightwingguy on February 16, 2010 at 4:45 PM